Argos game thread - Week 2 - Stamps @ Argos.

[jerrym]

#Argos head coach Marc Trestman says he is “encouraged” after initial assessment of Ricky Ray’s neck injury. Trestman says Ray will get an MRI. Trestman says while he was on the field looking at Ray, Ray was talking to doctors. #CFL @cfl

— Matthew Scianitti (@TSNScianitti) June 24, 2018

[Shatto]

Team was beaten in every area of the game. It was difficult to find even one positive aspect of the team's performance.
Some observations (among many):
.Not difficult to understand why Kanneh was cut by Hamilton.
.Offense desperately needs someone who can stretch the field
.Either the DB's haven't the ability to cover receivers or the defensive scheme is at fault.
.Both O line and D line were dominated by opposition tonight

Hey---at least it didn't rain

[Argos1983]

Attendance was 16,450. How much will it fall for the next home game against Edmonton on July 7th?

Wow - thats smaller than I thought given all the "juicing" done to get those numbers up....you can close off all the sections you want - this is still a niche market in terms of those people that will actually show up to BMO for the games......

Next game I bet you won't have more than 10,000-12,000 actual people in the building as many more seats will go unused I would bet..... it's not a "rival" (or Sask whose fans always goose the numbers a bit), it's at a weird time on a Saturday (5:30?) which eliminates those with afternoon or evening plans, and a summer weekend when many go to cottages and the Yankees are in town competing for the sports dollar.....and coming off a spectacularly bad performance of course.....

Look at last year --

The only games to draw more than 15K in the summer were Ottawa with a promo of 2 tickets for 19.97 and Flutie Bobbleheads and the entire 96-97 teams basically showing up for autographs.....and that only got 15,801, and the game during the EX which was the highest attendance (16,300+) of the year (as per usual) as the Argos ticket gets you free admission to the EX.......so we just saw the discounted "bobblehead game" in my opinion (rings and 50% off many seats), so other than the EX game in August on the 18th what are those other three summer games going to do - not much I would guess, unless something radical is being done to juice the numbers.....

The fall games drew poorly save for Sask with 15,100 who probably added a few of their own transplanted fans and the one surprise to me was the last game against Winnipeg (historically a bad draw in this market) which drew about 15,500 but that might have been due to the fact that it was basically a playoff game....so where does that leave us, Hamilton may draw well in September as it's Hamilton (Manziel will goose numbers in this market if he plays - sad but true as we do love a "show" here in Toronto), Sask will draw ok as always with their own fans coming to their one game a season, and the last two games will probably not draw that well as Friday nights in October (even with Hamilton) is not an easy draw for many 905ers (and others who tend to have more responsibilities in the fall with work and kids), and Montreal to end the season at home is a bust if the team is not highly competitive at that point.....

The point is I don't see where the radical change is going to occur and that's with a drastically reduced price footprint on the stadium (I doubt the overall financial draw based on ticket sales will be that different from last year to this year and that's coming off of a Grey Cup winning Season and less competition from the Jays for the sports dollar this summer as they are running at about 10K per game lower than last year)......this is more than just about price point (although that does matter obviously), it's about tapping into something far more elusive than that in this city -- the "it factor", the Argos are simply not seen as the place to be (today didn't help), and until the entire experience is changed in stadium to reflect BMO Argos football as a different/unique place to be in this market its not changing anytime soon -----

Sorry to compare but the one thing TFC (I am a STH for both teams and seeing as they are both seen as "Minor League" by the average observer, and both play in the same stadium some comparison is valid in my opinion) did correctly at the beginning that made it different than any other sports team in this market back in 2007 was that they sold the end seats super cheap (took the Argos three years to figure that out) and the fans organically brought the atmosphere based on "soccer culture" from other regions of the world and even people who had no interest in "minor league soccer" would come and go "look at the crazy crowd, listen to that noise, they are cheering without even being prompted - that's so different than anything else right now in Toronto" --- and the team which basically sucked saw this and marketed the heck out of "atmosphere" more than the play on the field which frankly was awful (the ads were pictures of fans and not players for most of the first few seasons)......TFC still has the TV problem (no one watches on TV, and they draw better at the gate - another problem for another day) while the Argos benefit from a long standing history and tradition and people do watch the product on tv (but don't attend the games in person), but I am only focusing on the idea of getting people into the building which TFC clearly does a better job of right now.....other things TFC did right - they have responded to me as a STH consistently and immediately at all times and NEVER was my ticket undercut and sold to the public for less than I paid as a STH (ie. there was always a financial value in buying season seats) -- they also rewarded those who stayed with them through 5-6 years of crap and rolled back prices in some case by almost 50% (after people complained about their crappy product -- see sometimes complaining does work), and still to this day even after they have become successful (and demand has increased and STH are at close to 25K!) they have kept prices relatively moderate and lower still for those who are long-time STH thereby rewarding loyalty and enticing me to stay with them through thick and thin......why the Argos don't reward long-term STH with discounts on a sliding scale based on consecutive years purchased is beyond me (Montreal does this by the way)....

Some of this is not difficult stuff, other parts require more creative thought (old guy rant approaching - ha ha ha)........how we don't have a family pack for $50 is beyond me (Manning said $100 for a family of 4 with food - forget that, we aren't drawing flies - get kids in the building cheaper and with their parents if you want the next generation of fans to care about your product, as us old-timers who remember the 60s and 70s heydays of CFL football are going to be dwindling)......more creative giveaways (especially for kids - hat day, shirt day, jason bobblehead day?), more fan engagement with Argos Alumni in the building (you have a proud history - use it!!), have some type of wifi that actually works and a social media lounge in-house on one of the north or south decks, allow for mobility like they are doing in other CFL stadiums like Ottawa and Hamilton (sorry but this younger generation (I'm the old guy yelling at the clouds now - ha ha ha) wants to use social media while in stadium to show everyone how much "fun" they are having which is basically advertising your product --- I go to tons of sporting events and inevitably see young (usually) people taking selfies and posting them rather than watching the game (is that my priority as a fan? no, I'm there to watch a game and can sit still for three hours, but many can't and need constant interaction (like my kids for instance - do the activities like the stuff done for Jr.Jays days - running on the field after a game, catching a TD in the endzone followed by a TD dance contest for kids with lots of Argos prizes to give away after the afternoon games?!), you need to cater to all kinds of fans "in stadium" not just the old farts like myself who believe the "game is enough without all the bells and whistles" -- tell that to the NBA which is hugely popular with a younger demographic (old guy rant almost over) and involves a constant barrage on the senses in the arena -- end of old guy rant (ha ha ha) ---- I know these are generalizations (not every old fart is a stick in the mud and is a social media illiterate, and not all young folks only have a ten minute attention span that doesn't involve looking at their phones) but the point on a macro-level is this -- try something different, be creative, doing the same stuff over and over again simply is not working.....

Any other creative ideas to get people in the building who wouldn't normally otherwise be inclined to go to a CFL game? I want this to work in this town but it feels like I am a fighting a lonely battle out here (old man yells at cloud) and a lot of times it's against our own FO who doesn't seem to do the right thing more often than not.......

[Argos1983]

Double post.....ooops......old man disease is hitting me hard at this hour......ha ha ha.....

[doubleblue]

Whoa! I didn't see that coming. But Calgary dominated right from the get go. Just about everything that could go wrong did. How does Calgary keep losing offensive linemen to retirement etc. and just keep plugging guys in who seems to be as good. Mitchell was hardly touched all night sitting back there. Just pitch and catch against Archer's zone defense. Looked kind of like a preseason vanilla defense.

Hope Ricky's ok. Looked like a broken play and an innocent looking tackle when he tried to scramble.

[smokeslet'sgo]

Wow - thats smaller than I thought given all the "juicing" done to get those numbers up....you can close off all the sections you want - this is still a niche market in terms of those people that will actually show up to BMO for the games......

Next game I bet you won't have more than 10,000-12,000 actual people in the building as many more seats will go unused I would bet..... it's not a "rival" (or Sask whose fans always goose the numbers a bit), it's at a weird time on a Saturday (5:30?) which eliminates those with afternoon or evening plans, and a summer weekend when many go to cottages and the Yankees are in town competing for the sports dollar.....and coming off a spectacularly bad performance of course.....

Look at last year --

The only games to draw more than 15K in the summer were Ottawa with a promo of 2 tickets for 19.97 and Flutie Bobbleheads and the entire 96-97 teams basically showing up for autographs.....and that only got 15,801, and the game during the EX which was the highest attendance (16,300+) of the year (as per usual) as the Argos ticket gets you free admission to the EX.......so we just saw the discounted "bobblehead game" in my opinion (rings and 50% off many seats), so other than the EX game in August on the 18th what are those other three summer games going to do - not much I would guess, unless something radical is being done to juice the numbers.....

The fall games drew poorly save for Sask with 15,100 who probably added a few of their own transplanted fans and the one surprise to me was the last game against Winnipeg (historically a bad draw in this market) which drew about 15,500 but that might have been due to the fact that it was basically a playoff game....so where does that leave us, Hamilton may draw well in September as it's Hamilton (Manziel will goose numbers in this market if he plays - sad but true as we do love a "show" here in Toronto), Sask will draw ok as always with their own fans coming to their one game a season, and the last two games will probably not draw that well as Friday nights in October (even with Hamilton) is not an easy draw for many 905ers (and others who tend to have more responsibilities in the fall with work and kids), and Montreal to end the season at home is a bust if the team is not highly competitive at that point.....

The point is I don't see where the radical change is going to occur and that's with a drastically reduced price footprint on the stadium (I doubt the overall financial draw based on ticket sales will be that different from last year to this year and that's coming off of a Grey Cup winning Season and less competition from the Jays for the sports dollar this summer as they are running at about 10K per game lower than last year)......this is more than just about price point (although that does matter obviously), it's about tapping into something far more elusive than that in this city -- the "it factor", the Argos are simply not seen as the place to be (today didn't help), and until the entire experience is changed in stadium to reflect BMO Argos football as a different/unique place to be in this market its not changing anytime soon -----

Sorry to compare but the one thing TFC (I am a STH for both teams and seeing as they are both seen as "Minor League" by the average observer, and both play in the same stadium some comparison is valid in my opinion) did correctly at the beginning that made it different than any other sports team in this market back in 2007 was that they sold the end seats super cheap (took the Argos three years to figure that out) and the fans organically brought the atmosphere based on "soccer culture" from other regions of the world and even people who had no interest in "minor league soccer" would come and go "look at the crazy crowd, listen to that noise, they are cheering without even being prompted - that's so different than anything else right now in Toronto" --- and the team which basically sucked saw this and marketed the heck out of "atmosphere" more than the play on the field which frankly was awful (the ads were pictures of fans and not players for most of the first few seasons)......TFC still has the TV problem (no one watches on TV, and they draw better at the gate - another problem for another day) while the Argos benefit from a long standing history and tradition and people do watch the product on tv (but don't attend the games in person), but I am only focusing on the idea of getting people into the building which TFC clearly does a better job of right now.....other things TFC did right - they have responded to me as a STH consistently and immediately at all times and NEVER was my ticket undercut and sold to the public for less than I paid as a STH (ie. there was always a financial value in buying season seats) -- they also rewarded those who stayed with them through 5-6 years of crap and rolled back prices in some case by almost 50% (after people complained about their crappy product -- see sometimes complaining does work), and still to this day even after they have become successful (and demand has increased and STH are at close to 25K!) they have kept prices relatively moderate and lower still for those who are long-time STH thereby rewarding loyalty and enticing me to stay with them through thick and thin......why the Argos don't reward long-term STH with discounts on a sliding scale based on consecutive years purchased is beyond me (Montreal does this by the way)....

Some of this is not difficult stuff, other parts require more creative thought (old guy rant approaching - ha ha ha)........how we don't have a family pack for $50 is beyond me (Manning said $100 for a family of 4 with food - forget that, we aren't drawing flies - get kids in the building cheaper and with their parents if you want the next generation of fans to care about your product, as us old-timers who remember the 60s and 70s heydays of CFL football are going to be dwindling)......more creative giveaways (especially for kids - hat day, shirt day, jason bobblehead day?), more fan engagement with Argos Alumni in the building (you have a proud history - use it!!), have some type of wifi that actually works and a social media lounge in-house on one of the north or south decks, allow for mobility like they are doing in other CFL stadiums like Ottawa and Hamilton (sorry but this younger generation (I'm the old guy yelling at the clouds now - ha ha ha) wants to use social media while in stadium to show everyone how much "fun" they are having which is basically advertising your product --- I go to tons of sporting events and inevitably see young (usually) people taking selfies and posting them rather than watching the game (is that my priority as a fan? no, I'm there to watch a game and can sit still for three hours, but many can't and need constant interaction (like my kids for instance - do the activities like the stuff done for Jr.Jays days - running on the field after a game, catching a TD in the endzone followed by a TD dance contest for kids with lots of Argos prizes to give away after the afternoon games?!), you need to cater to all kinds of fans "in stadium" not just the old farts like myself who believe the "game is enough without all the bells and whistles" -- tell that to the NBA which is hugely popular with a younger demographic (old guy rant almost over) and involves a constant barrage on the senses in the arena -- end of old guy rant (ha ha ha) ---- I know these are generalizations (not every old fart is a stick in the mud and is a social media illiterate, and not all young folks only have a ten minute attention span that doesn't involve looking at their phones) but the point on a macro-level is this -- try something different, be creative, doing the same stuff over and over again simply is not working.....

Any other creative ideas to get people in the building who wouldn't normally otherwise be inclined to go to a CFL game? I want this to work in this town but it feels like I am a fighting a lonely battle out here (old man yells at cloud) and a lot of times it's against our own FO who doesn't seem to do the right thing more often than not.......

I hate to quote this novel of a comment, it's simply to identify who I'm replying to, but I actually thought the crowd was quite good tonight, not only loud but knowledgeable which usually doesn't happen when they get a lot of new people in. It was very loud on defence, but maybe even more importantly you could hear a pin drop on offence. I was impressed by that. I was initially opposed to it but closing the upper east works, after a while you forget those sections are even there. Of course the boys didn't give anyone much to cheer about, except maybe the fumble return, but the crowd was engaged and into the game all night. Many even stuck around in the 4th or so. I'll be at the next game since I'm a diehard fan but would I return if I was a casual? Maybe. The atmosphere was great but the team was horrid. All I know is I don't make a lot of money but I can actually afford to go to every game, so they're doing something right.

[Argos1983]

I hate to quote this novel of a comment, it's simply to identify who I'm replying to, but I actually thought the crowd was quite good tonight, not only loud but knowledgeable which usually doesn't happen when they get a lot of new people in. It was very loud on defence, but maybe even more importantly you could hear a pin drop on offence. I was impressed by that. I was initially opposed to it but closing the upper east works, after a while you forget those sections are even there. Of course the boys didn't give anyone much to cheer about, except maybe the fumble return, but the crowd was engaged and into the game all night. Many even stuck around in the 4th or so. I'll be at the next game since I'm a diehard fan but would I return if I was a casual? Maybe. The atmosphere was great but the team was horrid. All I know is I don't make a lot of money but I can actually afford to go to every game, so they're doing something right.

Good to hear --- sorry about the novel.....I hope more people will want to come out to games this year (beyond the die-hards) but I'm dubious of that fact.....any creative ideas to try to get in new folks and more importantly get them to return beyond simply cutting prices?

[Argo]

Whoa! I didn't see that coming. But Calgary dominated right from the get go. Just about everything that could go wrong did. How does Calgary keep losing offensive linemen to retirement etc. and just keep plugging guys in who seems to be as good. Mitchell was hardly touched all night sitting back there. Just pitch and catch against Archer's zone defense. Looked kind of like a preseason vanilla defense.

Hope Ricky's ok. Looked like a broken play and an innocent looking tackle when he tried to scramble.

I figured the Argos would be demolished (at home, as is often the case). It was evident after game one - and still more evident after game two - that apart from the QB position, talent is generally lacking.

As for coaching, I must leave that topic for critique to others who have seen more of the team.

IIRC, the team now enters a bye week - if 0 - 3 after that, then look out, especially if Ott and Ham continue to play well.

[Mightygoose]

In terms of the attendance tonight which I know many seem to hyperfocus on negative.

Last year's home opener with Hamilton has the opponent with their large contingent of fans drew 13,500 and change. This was also with the upper east side opened and selling seats in the group section plus last year STHs had the 4 free vouchers per person, though not all were used, it still bumped up the crowd size.

With this context, 16,450 is a step in the right direction. Manning has very short incremental goals this year so this is beyond what I expected at least.

Too bad the on field result was poor tonight but winning and losing has never really moved the needle in attendance one way or another. Let the sales people sell and let the on field personel take care of the on field issues. Next game begings with a 0 - 0 score to start.

[Ron]

Love it. It's well known the team is hoping to grow crowds by an average of 1500 a year for 10 years. But as the sun rises in the East we get attendance whining after game 1. Looking forward to continued efforts after 2, 3, 4 ....8.

Argos got their collective asses kicked and being upset at that is fine with me. But this incessant attendance whine is irritating and ultimately self defeating. (To the whiner as the team has already stated it's a long journey and it will take a decade)

I know it won't stop but that's a little rant. Now back to our regular programming of jumping ship over a little setback.

[Rich]

Highlight of the night was getting the championship ring which TBH is rather impressive as a giveaway.

I'd call it the nicest piece of swag I ever received from the Argonauts.

[Ron]

I'd call it the nicest piece of swag I ever received from the Argonauts.

It was real nice. The bigger one for season ticket holders was really impressive.

[argotom]

A good crowd when comparing last year, with the same results when we had the near sellout opening up BMO a few years ago.
It turned out to be a decent evening and the crowd did look bigger than announced.
The team lays a giant egg and I suspect not many of those who are not regulars will return after this showing.
We stunk on all sides of the ball.
What a refreshing contrast with the Stamps and their shoot out the lights offense with BLM attacking downfield versus our pop gun style of dink and dunk.
A major change of philosophy is needed.
Especially when also comparing Masoli and the Cats being similar to the Stamps.
Look at the 2 games the Cats had out west, with the Stamps being fortunate they won last week.
At this pace, Hamilton and Ottawa are going to leave us behind in the East.

[cfl-cis fan]

A good crowd when comparing last year, with the same results when we had the near sellout opening up BMO a few years ago.
It turned out to be a decent evening and the crowd did look bigger than announced.
The team lays a giant egg and I suspect not many of those who are not regulars will return after this showing.
We stunk on all sides of the ball.
What a refreshing contrast with the Stamps and their shoot out the lights offense with BLM attacking downfield versus our pop gun style of dink and dunk.
A major change of philosophy is needed.
Especially when also comparing Masoli and the Cats being similar to the Stamps.
Look at the 2 games the Cats had out west, with the Stamps being fortunate they won last week.
At this pace, Hamilton and Ottawa are going to leave us behind in the East.

New DC & OC ! Have to say the Offence does not look the same, not sure if it is the play calling or what ! I can also say why not take what the opposing D was giving us, there were some open at times.

[OV Argo]

Love it. It's well known the team is hoping to grow crowds by an average of 1500 a year for 10 years. But as the sun rises in the East we get attendance whining after game 1. Looking forward to continued efforts after 2, 3, 4 ....8.

Argos got their collective asses kicked and being upset at that is fine with me. But this incessant attendance whine is irritating and ultimately self defeating. (To the whiner as the team has already stated it's a long journey and it will take a decade)

I know it won't stop but that's a little rant. Now back to our regular programming of jumping ship over a little setback.

"well known" is it ? - by who? - LOL.

The Argos are totally f***** for respect in that market deep in wannabeland. It will take huge, gargantuan, never before seen marketing efforts to re-establish them. A slow gradual increase in attendance is just a pipe dream for the naive IMO - how come there was not a decent increase in attendance last night ? - for the home opener for the GC Champs ?

40K season tickets for the mighty ship Argo back in the day - let's go living in the past. ;o)

Ottawa has a fraction of the demographic to draw from, and they were a twice folded $hite team for a couple of decades - yet they now fill the seats at Lansdowne. Wonder why such an amazing/stark contrast to TO ? Please somebody - provide a serious answer to that question.

[Argos1983]

"well known" is it ? - by who? - LOL.

The Argos are totally f***** for respect in that market deep in wannabeland. It will take huge, gargantuan, never before seen marketing efforts to re-establish them. A slow gradual increase in attendance is just a pipe dream for the naive IMO - how come there was not a decent increase in attendance last night ? - for the home opener for the GC Champs ?

40K season tickets for the mighty ship Argo back in the day - let's go living in the past. ;o)

Ottawa has a fraction of the demographic to draw from, and they were a twice folded $hite team for a couple of decades - yet they now fill the seats at Lansdowne. Wonder why such an amazing/stark contrast to TO ? Please somebody - provide a serious answer to that question.

I agree wholeheartedly (incremental change over the next 10 years?! - sounds like a way to not be held accountable for failing for the next while)....but I'm just whining now (ha ha ha)....I thought that's what message boards were for - griping?!.....ha ha ha.....I simply asked for some ideas at the end of my "novel" after putting out a few of my own ideas (mostly stolen from other teams marketing departments in various sports) at the end of my long diatribe....

I'll go back to yelling at clouds now.....

[cfl-cis fan]

was the hit (sandwich) on Ricky not a penalty, appears LAW came in and hit to the head !!

[argofan81]

It was real nice. The bigger one for season ticket holders was really impressive.

I heard rumours that there was a different ring for season ticket holders but nobody could tell me where to go to obtain mine. I tried to wander on my own to find a different area to no avail. If it is true that there is a different one for season ticket holders then the Argos need to ensure that all season ticket holders get the ring that they are entitled to.

[Ron]

I heard rumours that there was a different ring for season ticket holders but nobody could tell me where to go to obtain mine. I tried to wander on my own to find a different area to no avail. If it is true that there is a different one for season ticket holders then the Argos need to ensure that all season ticket holders get the ring that they are entitled to.

Oh it's true. Saw one. Friend Tigger had one and was close to double the size. Came in a felt bag with no stand. Apparently (according to Tibor) they handed them out at the same spot they did the other one's and even had "season ticket gift" written on it.

You're right though. There was no signage and should have had a separate STH line for it.

[paulwoods13]

Oh it's true. Saw one. Friend Tigger had one and was close to double the size. Came in a felt bag with no stand. Apparently (according to Tibor) they handed them out at the same spot they did the other one's and even had "season ticket gift" written on it.

You're right though. There was no signage and should have had a separate STH line for it.

This seems incredibly hard to believe. I know the organization seems to be flying by the seat of its pants this year but it's hard to imagine it could completely fail to notify season-ticket holders about how to obtain their special gift. I'd like to see evidence of this -- can someone please post a picture?