GAME THREAD / Week 6 / Winnipeg @ Toronto

[PullTogether73]

Everyone bashes me for being an Argo cynic but ive been a life long fan since 1982. Poor management decisions have driven this franchise into the ground. For the sake of the CFL we should seriously consider either folding the franchise or moving it to a smaller Canadian city that would support good quality football. Today was embarrassing. Even TSNs camera angles couldnt hide it. Time to talk about the elephant in the room.

Yup.
Utterly dismal attendance.
There's no way to talk this away.

It's not management not trying.
They have put together a good in-stadium experience IMO.
They have slashed ticket prices.
They have offered discounts to STHs of other MLSE teams.
They have had a flash sale of discounted tickets to "Friends & Family".
I can only think of more advertising as another tactic to increase attendance.

But this situation is untenable.
I am not optimistic about the survival of this franchise in Toronto anymore.

[Argofan_1000]

Everyone bashes me for being an Argo cynic but ive been a life long fan since 1982. Poor management decisions have driven this franchise into the ground. For the sake of the CFL we should seriously consider either folding the franchise or moving it to a smaller Canadian city that would support good quality football. Today was embarrassing. Even TSNs camera angles couldnt hide it. Time to talk about the elephant in the room.

I can't even pronounce your name so you must be a TFC supporter. It would be better if you didn't post here

[Wobbler]

It won't look as bad tomorrow, people.

[ArgoZ]

Everyone bashes me for being an Argo cynic but ive been a life long fan since 1982. Poor management decisions have driven this franchise into the ground. For the sake of the CFL we should seriously consider either folding the franchise or moving it to a smaller Canadian city that would support good quality football. Today was embarrassing. Even TSNs camera angles couldnt hide it. Time to talk about the elephant in the room.

No one bashes you. They do put up resistance to your non stop agenda that the Argos must/will die. What exactly do you want? Us, Argos fans to agree? Will you be satisfied only when they do cease to operate? I don't get it, especially on a "fan site".

[Shatto]

Normally after a game, one can point to several pros and cons of the game. Not this time---it was all negative.

Offense was terrible--couldn't run the ball, couldn't hold off the Winnipeg D line, receivers seldom getting separation, poor play calling, QB never moved the pocket, receivers can't stretch the field etc
Defense wasn't much better--DB's played very soft most of the time, little pressure on the QB, allowed Harris to run at will etc. Looks like they miss Chamblin far more than we expected.

So far we have criticised certain players but it is coming to a point where the coaching has accept some of the responsibility.

The crowd was extremely disappointing. Last year, even though the attendance was poor for many games, there was the beginning of a buzz surrounding the team and their activities. Cancelling the tailgating now looks to be an even bigger blunder than we first thought.

[Wobbler]

It seems kinda early to hit the panic button.

- Franklin's third start was poor, but he played pretty well in the first two games. It's early to expect the offense to be built around him.

- The receiving corps *may* be a serious liability without Posey and (IMO) with Green's decline, but if we get Coombs back pretty soon it could make a big difference.

- Some magical combination of OL/JWJ/etc. confidence and/or game plan yields a productive ground game. It happened last year and it can happen again if we can just figure it out.

Having said that... I'm impatient too. I would like to hear (or better yet see) that the staff is working on these problems and has some good ideas.

[jerrym]

The score flatters the Argos' effort. The really scary thing about the low attendance is what will it be after this disaster?

[R.J]

Everyone bashes me for being an Argo cynic but ive been a life long fan since 1982. Poor management decisions have driven this franchise into the ground. For the sake of the CFL we should seriously consider either folding the franchise or moving it to a smaller Canadian city that would support good quality football. Today was embarrassing. Even TSNs camera angles couldnt hide it. Time to talk about the elephant in the room.

Yup let's just either fold the team or move 'em to Halifax, then bring the NFL to Toronto.

The crowd was extremely disappointing. Last year, even though the attendance was poor for many games, there was the beginning of a buzz surrounding the team and their activities. Cancelling the tailgating now looks to be an even bigger blunder than we first thought.

30-40 cars tailgating has been the norm so far this season, and based on reports it was in the 30-40 range the previous two season. I'm not following how tailgating is the answer.

[Shatto]

With respect the difference from last year to this year is three fold.

1) The number of cars last year always appeared to be much more than 30-40. On the one occasion I took a rough count it was well over 100 vehicles.
2) It was an official Argo event and was advertised and publicised as such, getting good press in the media
3) It was creating a buzz. Folks who were casual fans were asking about it. It appeared to be gaining momentum as the season progressed.

On a personal note, on several occasions we took the extended family down to the game and the pre-game tailgate. Those extra 8 people attended the game. This year that hasn't happened.

I commend the folks who have continued with an unofficial tailgate and plan to join them in the future. However, by necessity it can't be publicized by MLSE or the Argos. It was this buzz that made attending the game more attractive to many. If we want to see increased attendance a buzz must be created to sell the casual fans. Maybe there are other ways to create a buzz that the PR folks can play on but eliminating the one thing that was creating a buzz wasn't a smart marketing move. Effective organizations add to things that appeal to potential ticket buyers not reduce them. Official tailgating may not be the answer but it could have been one of them.

[ArgoRavi]

It seems kinda early to hit the panic button.

- Franklin's third start was poor, but he played pretty well in the first two games. It's early to expect the offense to be built around him.

- The receiving corps *may* be a serious liability without Posey and (IMO) with Green's decline, but if we get Coombs back pretty soon it could make a big difference.

- Some magical combination of OL/JWJ/etc. confidence and/or game plan yields a productive ground game. It happened last year and it can happen again if we can just figure it out.

Having said that... I'm impatient too. I would like to hear (or better yet see) that the staff is working on these problems and has some good ideas.

I really don't think that Green is declining but I would agree with what you have said otherwise. Additionally, the problems on defence start up front. They have to find a way to get pressure with their front 4; they just have to.

[Ron]

Yup.
Utterly dismal attendance.
There's no way to talk this away.

It's not management not trying.
They have put together a good in-stadium experience IMO.
They have slashed ticket prices.
They have offered discounts to STHs of other MLSE teams.
They have had a flash sale of discounted tickets to "Friends & Family".
I can only think of more advertising as another tactic to increase attendance.

But this situation is untenable.
I am not optimistic about the survival of this franchise in Toronto anymore.

The team said it would take a decade. 5 weeks in and people are bitching already. If it isn't improved in 8 years ... then bitch about it.

[Ron]

Offence

Bad

- Why was Franklin forced to try and be a pocket pass today?

Defence

Bad

Special Teams

Bad

Trestman is no longer blameless either. All three phases of his football team are awful right now.

Neither the offence or defence have any imagination. Opponents are not fooled.

Finally some clarity. About time Trestman gets his share of blame here. Turning Franklin into a Ricky ray is not going to work. Worst thing is seeing so many posts online blaming Franklin.

With Franklin in "Ray" mode the defenses can stuff JWJ and force Franklin to beat them from the pocket. He won't have great success and teams know it. Trestman is to blame for no roll outs, no option runs with JWJ. Make defenses respect his legs to open the pass. Teams were not able to over commit to stop JWJ because Ray would pick them apart. Franklin right now is not a threat to do that.

[paulwoods13]

Good thing I didn't see this one, I gather.

Obviously I have nothing to add except to second Ron's reminder that the rebuild of this business will take years, not weeks. A low-attended game inevitably brings all the "fold or move" catcallers out of the woodwork. Ignore them.

On the field, who knows the answers but hopefully Popp and Trestman did not suddenly become blind or stupid. If changes need to be made, I'd like to think they will endeavour to make them.

[Argos1983]

No one is suggesting that this will not take years to fix - but if by the end of this year the average attendance for 2018 is less than 2017 (I would have hoped for a moderate uptick - maybe average 500-1000 more people per game considering you had an off season of slashed prices and a GC champion to sell) and considering the number of tickets that were pre-sold as ST was surely higher in June 2018 then it was in June 2017 - then that is clearly not a good sign that walk-up ticket buying or engaging the non hard-core fan (the ones who go to 1 or 2 games a year or are trying your product) is surely dwindling......whatever it is, it's not working and the fact that they can't even draw the same as last year is quite sad --- I am sure Ottawa will be a poorly attended game on a Thursday - the Ex game and the Hamilton and Sask games will sell ok with "visiting" fans helping to sell tickets and the last two games might be really poorly attended if the Argos are out of it, although they may sell some tickets if Manziel sees the field and the ensuing hype creates some interest.......although I did see them advertising $25 tickets for the Family Day Game of July 21st on TV tonight about 3 hours after the game was over.....nice job!

[Scooter McCray]

Everyone bashes me for being an Argo cynic but ive been a life long fan since 1982. Poor management decisions have driven this franchise into the ground. For the sake of the CFL we should seriously consider either folding the franchise or moving it to a smaller Canadian city that would support good quality football. Today was embarrassing. Even TSNs camera angles couldnt hide it. Time to talk about the elephant in the room.

Until an effort is made to rebuild the fan base with an actual business plan and strategy and executed with the full might of MLSE behind it and that fails there is no way I accept folding or moving this team. Otherwise there will always be the what if question. A third year at BMO is going by without a plan beyond "tarping" and cutting prices which should have been done on day one. A game day experience beyond the game is still not being done.

[Argofan_1000]

The team said it would take a decade. 5 weeks in and people are bitching already. If it isn't improved in 8 years ... then bitch about it.

your right

[Argo57]

Good thing I didn't see this one, I gather.

Obviously I have nothing to add except to second Ron's reminder that the rebuild of this business will take years, not weeks. A low-attended game inevitably brings all the "fold or move" catcallers out of the woodwork. Ignore them.

On the field, who knows the answers but hopefully Popp and Trestman did not suddenly become blind or stupid. If changes need to be made, I'd like to think they will endeavour to make them.

Paul, always using logic to end some good rants (including mine on occasion) please stop it😛

[1971GreyCup]

Until an effort is made to rebuild the fan base with an actual business plan and strategy and executed with the full might of MLSE behind it and that fails there is no way I accept folding or moving this team. Otherwise there will always be the what if question. A third year at BMO is going by without a plan beyond "tarping" and cutting prices which should have been done on day one. A game day experience beyond the game is still not being done.

I agree. I'd love to provide a business plan that says "one decade out, things will be fine." I predict current management is gone in four, maybe five years. But then that's the cynic in me.

I'd love to see investment in the turn around. All I know is that there's a new set of "middle" management. They've stopped doing what was done in the past. No evidence that they've replaced old activities with new activities. Lots of cost savings apparent.

My anecdotal evidence is that when I asked questions on getting a corporate suite, I didn't get a reply. When I followed it up, I got no answers, just an invoice. I didn't pursue it any further. Not surprisingly, no follow up from the Argos on my interest. If that is the level of sales put in for large ticket items is indicative of the process, how can you expect single tickets sales to differ? I am not the least surprised by the attendance numbers.

[Mightygoose]

Yeah. Brutal game on and off the field on all fronts.

Off field. Yes that attendance number is ugly and there's no sugarcoating it.

At the same time management said this will be a long term rebuild and I'll I'm looking for is progress. The first 2 games showed it, yesterday did not.

However it is a new business plan. Last year the ST package included 4 free vouchers per ticket. Also last year there were multiple promos on the upper east side. 2 for 19.97 Doug Flutie night, 15.00 CNE day, most games the rest of the season, they were sold between 12 to 15 dollars. The last 2-3 games there were some groups promos in the lower bowl 12 tickets for 240.00 and 24 tickets for 480.00...these 2 promos included a beer at the tailgate (sponsored by Budweiser).

These promos added thousands to each game so I strongly believe last year's numbers would have been far worse. These padded the numbers but it hurt the ST price integrity.

This season, these promos are gone and aside from a 1 day flash sale, they're not discounting (stub hub doesn't count). The long path to build the crowds back up is to build the season ticket base. MLSE's best move right now IMO is to stay the current course. The fact they announce attendance in stadium...something that wasn't done the past 2 years, suggests to be that's what they'll be doing.

The 2 positives from yesterday are 1) the airhorn issue from last game was dealt with and b) the dog is OK.... can't believe what it's 'owner' did....so glad he/was given a public shaming.

[doubleblue]

Can we point to one positive this year. The ST's went from 3500 to 6000.