GAME THREAD / Week 7 / Toronto @ Winnipeg

[Neely2005]

I've been through much worse seasons than this. Been around for great championship ones too. I'll be there (love my BMO gameday experience) and won't be giving up on a team as quickly as you.

Our regular season record over the past Decade is concerning though. I don't understand how the East can be this bad for this long.

[Neely2005]

I'm not abandoning the team -- I will still cheer for them -- and I am old enough to remember a lot of that 31 year gap too hence my board name (1983 was a big deal for me!), and a lot of subsequent 3-15, 4-14 seasons too.....I'm just not buying STs anymore and will support from home rather than with my wallet....I didn't pay to watch much 1980s Leafs hockey either (still sat at home and watched most Wednesdays/Saturdays - the "old" days of CHCH, CBC), I still wore the damn gear, like I do with my Argos stuff (was wearing it yesterday too), even when they sucked - but paying up front for STs and having the constant screw-ups that have occurred with ticket exchanges, refunds, poor communication, discounted seats that make my investing early look stupid, and the lack of a consistently decent on-field product is causing me to re-think my ROI on this particular investment of time and resources.....we had Jays seasons from 1989-1994 too --- I still cheered for the team from 1995 on-wards, but I just didn't feel the need to invest my money in that product at that rate anymore....I will always cheer for my teams even when they suck (and most of my favourite teams have had more sucking seasons than good seasons) - However, I won't always pay for it if I feel that the product/experience is not worth my investment of time/money.....

That's more than fair, and outside of leaf fans is actually pretty normal.

[PullTogether73]

Hey look!
The sun DID actually rise this morning!

I was a bit unsure after last night's debacle.

[Argos1983]

Montreal sold 16,718 tickets in week 4, and sold 16,654 tickets in week 7 with Manziel. Doesn't sound like he helped fill up anything. Maybe he'll do so when he starts................

That made me laugh!! --- yes I know I am doing as the cartoon shows (BADH) --- that's just what my frustration does though, it leads to this place as my outlet for my ranting.....by the way; as many others have already correctly stated on here; if it's not winning consistently (poorly attended this year after winning the GC last year, and even in 1996/1997 when we had the best Argos team ever, ticket sales were relatively poor), if it's not the stadium (we are finally out of the Dome and at a more football friendly venue), if it's not the pricing (we've slashed prices considerably this year and sales are down), if it's not the fact that a "star" is not a proven long term solution (Rocket, Ricky Williams et al were not long term ticket sellers), OK then what is it?? How many ownership groups and brilliant marketing minds have we gone through that are looking for the magic solution to the age old problem of the last 3-4 decades (ie. since the Jays became relevant at least in the 80s, and the expansion of cable options as well), to the question "what will make people go to Argos games consistently in this town?" --- if others believe that MLSE has all the magic answers that the last 30-40 years of owners haven't figured out than god bless them, but I am less than hopeful in this day and age of entertainment alternatives (more outlets to spend one's time not leaving their house (more channels/streaming than ever in glorious 4K 60 inch colour), or giving a reason for people to look up from their phones/tablets), and more young people who care less about the Canadian brand of Football in this market to believe otherwise.....

It's not a surprise to me that the three biggest markets have the hardest time selling tickets to CFL football (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver), I would bet that the difference in entertainment options, travel time and expense for the average fan to attend games has a lot to do with it....I lived in Halifax for a number of years - I loved going to Moosehead games and Canadian College football games (Yay - Atlantic Bowl!) as there was little else to do sporting-wise and I could get to and from the venues in 10-15 minutes or less --- I don't run to as many Marlies games which are an hour away like BMO is for me (I went to watch the AHL Finals though -- see winning temporarily does help interest (ha ha ha) - just like an Eastern Final against Sask sells tickets for ONE game) or go to OHL games (I go to a few games in Oshawa/Mississauga but Mississauga is dying fast), or UofT/York football games (almost no one there but friends and family), as there are other options available in a city of Toronto, and/or the time/expense causes my interest and dollars to go elsewhere.....it's just the reality of the situation for many sports fans in this town.....the Argos are simply a niche sport in this market at this point, the days of long-term consistent demand (ie. 20K-25K every game paying a reasonable price) for seats is gone.....if the TV contract revenue, or the Grey Cup revenue filling up the owners pockets, or simply the charity of a few owners who lost money consistently wasn't there, this team could have been gone a while ago --- I'm happy others have felt so charitable with their finances to keep propping this team up, I simply won't be one of them anymore after the last three years of being hopeful that a move to BMO would change something (I've had ST at the dome too), I've donated to this charity enough.....if others keep wishing to do so, more power to them.....

I wish I shared all of your optimism.....now you can put the BADH picture up again.....ha ha ha.....

[R.J]

Our regular season record over the past Decade is concerning though. I don't understand how the East can be this bad for this long.

It's been a long time since the Flutie era.

[R.J]

This is the first time Trestman has had a poor CFL team. I'm interested to see how he fares.

[R.J]

Choosing not to attend Argos games today is anyone's choice but you might have nothing to come back to in a few years if everyone just chooses to say at home.

Argo fans are their own worst enemy.

[Argos1983]

Argo fans are their own worst enemy.

Point made -- I will own that statement today after all of my ranting.....I just wish there were more of those Argos fans who would gladly take my place in line when I stop buying ST.....sadly I don't think that's the case.....

[R.J]

Point made -- I will own that statement today after all of my ranting.....I just wish there were more of those Argos fans who would gladly take my place in line when I stop buying ST.....sadly I don't think that's the case.....

A couple of years ago I almost walked away from the Argos if they kept Milanovich around. So keep in mind that I'm not against you standing up for what you believe in, but the constant complaining about the same stuff over and over again gets tiresome.

Argo fans in general seem very fickle. In 2008 the team had 12,000 season ticket holders - it's about half that now. People can blame the team and owners all the want, but diehards are the ones abandoning the team. The greatest marketing tool is word of mouth, and Argo fans have trouble getting the word out there.

[Argos1983]

A couple of years ago I almost walked away from the Argos if they kept Milanovich around. So keep in mind that I'm not against you standing up for what you believe in, but the constant complaining about the same stuff over and over again gets tiresome.

Argo fans in general seem very fickle. In 2008 the team had 12,000 season ticket holders - it's about half that now. People can blame the team and owners all the want, but diehards are the ones abandoning the team. The greatest marketing tool is word of mouth, and Argo fans have trouble getting the word out there.

OK - I accept your point, I'll stop the complaining.....I'm getting tired anyways, it's tiring being so tiresome....wake me up on August 2nd..... ha ha ha.....

[Neely2005]

Thank you -- I never said in my earlier rant that I will not be an Argos fan, I've been one my whole life and they have sucked for a lot of those years too -- it's the investment of time (it takes me over an hour both ways and then three hours of watching a less than hungry football team), and the investment of money - parking/transit costs in addition to the ticket cost which is relatively minimal this year if I'm being fair (although it took Year 3 at BMO to figure out a more appropriate pricing structure - something I ranted about constantly in Years 1 and 2 - but apparently those much smarter than I clearly knew that 5 different price points in a 1/2 empty section like 220 really makes sense - those last three-five seats in my row are clearly worth more?!) --- others will simply abandon their season tickets next year without ranting on a board like myself, so my thoughts are likely more reflective of the public sentiment these days than most posters on here who likely make up the "hard-core" fan base and who still passionately care about this team --- when people here like myself (and Argo57 apparently) start losing interest in investing in the product and questioning their choices in doing so, or leaving at halftime, that's a bad thing.....if I didn't care I would just abandon this team and these forums, like most of the GTA has - apathy towards this team is way worse than someone getting angry or frustrated at mistakes made both on and off the field in my opinion, at least anger shows you care, once they stop caring at all, we end up where we are now --- and this is not unique to this team or franchise in this market --

Ask the Jays who will sell more than 1 Million less seats this year and whose ratings have plummeted this year what apathy is all about.....but I am sure everyone here is going to more Jays games in 2018, and watching more Jays games intently this year than in 2015-2016 right? I bet the ticket pricing structure will change next year for them too (raising seat prices after 2017 was asinine), making flex packs less flexible for families all in the name of trying to squeeze an extra buck out of something that the public has clearly lost interest in -- how will that change? - by showing the team that you won't throw good money after bad, it worked for TFC too - reduced pricing when they sucked too (only the Leafs can get away with it long-term as their STH will never leave them as the ROI is still decent (no one I know with ST goes to 40 Leafs games a a year - they sell off a chunk and it pays for the rest in most cases - even in the 80s), and those Leafs seats have become a "legacy" passed on from generation to generation (or used as a Business expense in the lower bowl) and Toronto is after all is said and done a hockey town)) --- the point is almost all teams in this market have to be very cognizant of making their team interesting/affordable and worth the customers time and investment in this town - save for the Leafs (and somewhat Raptors who have tickets tied to the Leafs in many cases, although we will see in 2020 if the Raptors suck again and blow this core group up), Toronto is a trendy, front-running town and if it seems like it's not seen as a "big deal" - we tend to ignore it here save for the die-hards --- and the Argos simply aren't seen as trendy or interesting anymore to the masses (clearly less walk-up sales than the previous two years), and they are now starting to piss off the older die-hards (the ones with STs) who are old enough to remember the CFL when it was THE Game in this town and want to support the team and the league but frankly are finding less reasons to do so ----

I truly hope that the "Golden Touch" of MLSE will save this team, and I wish that I was as optimistic as some on here that in 10 years we will be averaging 25,000 consistently (this is not an outrageous ask when there are only 9 home games in the summer, in a market this size - again if a minor league soccer team can outdraw this team on a per game basis on a 17 game home schedule that's a problem), but I simply doubt it - the ship has sailed (yay a pun!) on CFL interest in this town on a consistent long-term basis in my opinion in terms of actually attending the games at a rate that is respectable (none of my kids or their friends talk about the Argos ever which is not a good sign - they do play baseball and soccer though and have Leafs jerseys),....but hey in 10 years when BMO is close to sold out constantly for Argos football, I will be happy to admit I was wrong.....

Rant #2 over.....ha ha ha......

I agree with most of what you've said here. However Toronto is not a hockey town, it's a leafs town. Many hockey teams have failed in the GTA.

[Neely2005]

A couple of years ago I almost walked away from the Argos if they kept Milanovich around. So keep in mind that I'm not against you standing up for what you believe in, but the constant complaining about the same stuff over and over again gets tiresome.

Argo fans in general seem very fickle. In 2008 the team had 12,000 season ticket holders - it's about half that now. People can blame the team and owners all the want, but diehards are the ones abandoning the team. The greatest marketing tool is word of mouth, and Argo fans have trouble getting the word out there.

Totally anecdotal but I know quite a few Argonauts season ticket holders that simply didn't make the move to BMO Field. Some of these fans were older and prefered the climate controlled Rogers Centre. Others didn't drive and took the Subway to the Rogers Centre and weren't interested in sitting in traffic on a crowded Streetcar.

[Wobbler]

It isn't easy to have realistic expectations as a fan.

We were never a dominant team last year despite winning the GC. I'd say we started out mediocre and developed into good-but-not-great. Due to departures, injuries, and aging, the squad is worse - overall - this year. The only way we *wouldn't* end up with a worse result is if the rookies and second year guys performed surprisingly well.

Unsurprisingly, they haven't.

My only complaint is that the team should care more about on-field entertainment value. Playing good football and trying to win are the most important goals, but why not incorporate more *fun* plays for the home crowd? Winnipeg did that yesterday, after playing a no-nonsense road game against us the week before. Fakes, direct snaps, reverses, and other gadget plays make the game more fun to watch - especially for casual fans.

[Stevoman]

I wanted to weigh in on this game after I'd watched more of it as I checked in on only part of the second half last night. Overall, I do think they played better than the week before. Turnovers and penalties were the killer but there was better production overall. I know the score didn't reflect that though.

The first six games were very difficult and they failed the test quite badly. It doesn't get much better over the next six but they need to be 3-3 or 4-2 over that stretch. If not, then this season is likely over. Hopefully players returning soon from injury will help.

[Argo57]

It isn't easy to have realistic expectations as a fan.

We were never a dominant team last year despite winning the GC. I'd say we started out mediocre and developed into good-but-not-great. Due to departures, injuries, and aging, the squad is worse - overall - this year. The only way we *wouldn't* end up with a worse result is if the rookies and second year guys performed surprisingly well.

Unsurprisingly, they haven't.

My only complaint is that the team should care more about on-field entertainment value. Playing good football and trying to win are the most important goals, but why not incorporate more *fun* plays for the home crowd? Winnipeg did that yesterday, after playing a no-nonsense road game against us the week before. Fakes, direct snaps, reverses, and other gadget plays make the game more fun to watch - especially for casual fans.

Fans pay to be entertained, Argos were entertaining last year, Ray and the gang playing at a high level, our D committed and hard hitting, this year pretty much zero entertainment value.
It all starts with a good on field product and builds from there.
Argos looked like a pretty good team in preseason, I think the home opening beat down put on them by Calgary shook their confidence to the core.

[ArgoRavi]

Who is to say though that the scheme isn't affecting both the front four and the secondary?

I am no coach or defensive expert but is there any scheme that doesn't include your front four going after the opposing QB? I don't know if any scheme will work without pressure up front.

[ArgoRavi]

Looking ahead at the schedule, I honestly feel the Argos will go either 5-1 or 4-2 in the next 6 games. Last night they left too many points on the field due to turnovers, Rodney Smith's fumble after that big gain started it and hurt the most. I get the idea why Hamilton traded away Kanahh for an 8th round pick...he reminds me of Alex Suber. A new kicker should be brought in as Ronnie looked hurt...but other changes should be expected. Not sure why Wilder was not used more after the 1st td drive where they ran it down Winnipegs throats.

I hate Winnipeg....gimmick offence that constantly gets set up by turnovers....1st and five...you have to convert that....

Good synopsis. Don't anyone laugh, but I didn't think that the Argo defence was that bad last night. I was impressed with the adjustments made by Archer in that they were able to shut down Harris. They ended giving up 3 offensive TDs last night but at least two were directly attributable to terrible calls by the officials. On the Ball penalty on the first Winnipeg TD drive, the Argos defence had the Bombers off the field. You can't give any offence additional chances and those terrible calls did just that.

The major reason for the loss though was the 6 turnovers plus the one blocked punt (which officially does not count as a turnover). You can't lose the turnover battle 6-1 and win any football game. The offence moved the ball fairly well but turnovers will kill you every time.

Having said all of this, there are changes/tweaks that absolutely have to be made. I know everyone wants to fire Mike Archer but how can anyone be sure that he is the problem and not the personnel? We lost Butler, Rico Murray, Mitchell White and Akwasi Owusu-Ansah and have been unable to properly replace any of them. Further, we have been without Bear Woods and Taylor Reed, who could have been a decent replacement for the injured Woods. With Lemon traded, that is about half of our Grey Cup winning defence that we have been without.

We have the Ottawa game coming up and then the bye week and I am sure that all will be re-evaluated at that point. I think that the Argos have some good, young, promising talent on the practice roster that they will need to start looking at. I have lots of faith in Trestman and Popp still but I also think that Popp made some errors in free agency in the off-season. I was not enthusiastic over re-signing TJ Heath and I think we have seen why so far this season. Kanneh doesn't seem like the same player that he was two or three years ago. On offence, we need Anthony Coombs back badly and we need go with another international in the receiving corps. Could we maybe look at going with Robert Woodson at CB to get another international on the field on offence? It would also then help to get Matt Black back to backup Woodson. In any event, it is time for the team to start looking at some younger players. As for Franklin, I have no doubt that he can be a star in this league still but he is certainly going through some growing pains and it isn't helping that our receiving corps simply isn't good enough or deep enough at this point to help him.

[argolio]

We played better (total yards and possession time were relatively equal this time), shut down Harris and Adams, yet the score was worse because of turnovers. Not converting a 1st and 5 in scoring position and having a kick "blocked" right from the punter's hand should never happen. Bad/struggling teams just find a way to lose.

The season can still be salvaged, but time to say goodbye to some vets and start preparing for next year if August is more of the same.

Never dull in Argo-land. Would be nice if it was easier on the nerves.

[R.J]

Fans pay to be entertained, Argos were entertaining last year, Ray and the gang playing at a high level, our D committed and hard hitting, this year pretty much zero entertainment value.
It all starts with a good on field product and builds from there.
Argos looked like a pretty good team in preseason, I think the home opening beat down put on them by Calgary shook their confidence to the core.

TBH I haven't been entertained in a few years now - even last year was hit and miss at best IMO. Interestingly enough while my interest in the CFL has been dying since 2014; it's been the opposite for my interest in the NLL, NHL and Indycar.

[Argos1983]

I agree with most of what you've said here. However Toronto is not a hockey town, it's a leafs town. Many hockey teams have failed in the GTA.

Agreed - my bad, yes indeed Toronto is a Leafs town, not a hockey town....