Should Franklin Start On Saturday?

[Rich]

It was great to see Franklin so vocal and enthusiastic pumping up his teammates in Hamilton. When he has found success in his career it was when he was playing with emotion and enthusiasm, something that was largely missing from his first stint as starter. I think he now knows he's gotta play like that from now on. Paul speculated earlier that the team responds better to MBT, but judging from the Hamilton fiasco this is clearly not the case. Franklin seems to light a spark whenever he comes onto the field, and who doesn't love the way the guy never gives an inch to those big linemen on his QB sneaks. And we saw again how smooth he looks and how effective he can be when he rolls out of the pocket.

I think it's time for Franklin to reclaim his title as Argos QB of the Future. After all these years McLeod Bethel-Thompson finally achieved his childhood dream of starting as a pro QB, and good on him, but i think it's time the experiment comes to an end

[Argo57]

IMO this season is basically over as far as making the playoffs especially if they lose again Saturday (which is likely).
To that end the Argos must use the balance of the season to see what they have with Franklin and several other players heading into 2019.
A mediocre O-Line, receivers who don’t have the speed to stretch the field and also struggle to get open will make these evaluations difficult.
Add a couple of playmakers to the lineup like Duron Carter and Devier Posey (if they can get him to return) and you will get a better indication of both QB’s potential.

[cfl-cis fan]

IMO this season is basically over as far as making the playoffs especially if they lose again Saturday (which is likely).
To that end the Argos must use the balance of the season to see what they have with Franklin and several other players heading into 2019.
A mediocre O-Line, receivers who don’t have the speed to stretch the field and also struggle to get open will make these evaluations difficult.
Add a couple of playmakers to the lineup like Duron Carter and Devier Posey (if they can get him to return) and you will get a better indication of both QB’s potential.

Play calling has to change to have success with Carter & Posey. The progression read has to be altered, the open man is too far down the progression.

[Ron]

In Mark we Trust

To me it's clear that Trestman is grooming Franklin to be the man in his system. Franklin struggled with seeing the field and not running (Like MBT does) when the opp arises. Franklin will be back when Trestman feels he's ready to go back. The last thing we need is for him to be rushed back and have his confidence shattered again. Let Trestman groom his future backup to Franklin while Franklin progresses.

Nice to see his fire returning but one week does not a reclamation make. MBT's stats are not bad enough by a long shot to lose the spot right now. But the team put up 28 points and let in a lot more. Bring Flutie back with this D and people would be all over him too.

[Argo57]

Play calling has to change to have success with Carter & Posey. The progression read has to be altered, the open man is too far down the progression.

Chicken or egg?
“Progression read has to be altered” is that the play calling or the receivers not creating separation due to lack of speed and route running?
I’d say probably both.

[R.J]

Franklin should start, but he won't - Trestman loves his boy.

For the life of me I don't understand why the team is wasting time on a 30 year old journeyman instead of developing and grooming QB's like Franklin and Prukop. (Prukop will never get a real shot here though - pure scrambler).

[jerrym]

Franklin should start, but he won't - Trestman loves his boy.

For the life of me I don't understand why the team is wasting time on a 30 year old journeyman instead of developing and grooming QB's like Franklin and Prukop. (Prukop will never get a real shot here though - pure scrambler).

Developing a 30 year old QB for the future of the team is an oxymoron.

[paulwoods13]

IMO this season is basically over as far as making the playoffs especially if they lose again Saturday (which is likely).
To that end the Argos must use the balance of the season to see what they have with Franklin and several other players heading into 2019.
A mediocre O-Line, receivers who don’t have the speed to stretch the field and also struggle to get open will make these evaluations difficult.
Add a couple of playmakers to the lineup like Duron Carter and Devier Posey (if they can get him to return) and you will get a better indication of both QB’s potential.

It's too soon to throw in the towel on the season, notwithstanding how badly we played yesterday. Playoffs are still attainable altho the hill becomes a lot steeper if we lose again on Saturday. Once it's clearly a lost cause, by all means evaluate for 2019. But right now it would be nuts to do anything other than try to win games.

[paulwoods13]

Developing a 30 year old QB for the future of the team is an oxymoron.

Because it's not possible to develop at that age, or to play for many years past that age?

For the record, MBT is six weeks older than Masoli. Masoli was not handed a starting spot until he was age 29, and now look what he's doing. Was it also folly for Hamilton to start playing him a year ago?

[paulwoods13]

Paul speculated earlier that the team responds better to MBT, but judging from the Hamilton fiasco this is clearly not the case.

I saw a team that didn't seem to know where anyone in the secondary should be on any given play. Not sure how that clearly demonstrated the team doesn't respond better to the QB. I suppose it's possible that receivers would try harder to get open, squeeze passes tighter and not fall down if a different QB was taking snaps, but to me at least that is not exactly self-evident.

(And again, for the record, I really like Franklin, I'm glad he's on our team and I hope he stays an Argonaut for many years. If he ends up being a viable starter, that would make me very happy. I just don't see how toggling back to him at this point will suddenly make him show more than he showed in his four starts, or than MBT has shown in his four starts. The problems with this team go far beyond the play of either inexperienced QB.)

[Argo57]

It's too soon to throw in the towel on the season, notwithstanding how badly we played yesterday. Playoffs are still attainable altho the hill becomes a lot steeper if we lose again on Saturday. Once it's clearly a lost cause, by all means evaluate for 2019. But right now it would be nuts to do anything other than try to win games.

If they lose Saturday they are pretty much done, unfortunately this team hasn’t shown anything this season to indicate they are capable of running the table the last few games to qualify for the playoffs.
Of course the goal is to win however this team needs to see what they have at QB moving forward into next season.

[paulwoods13]

If they lose Saturday they are pretty much done, unfortunately this team hasn’t shown anything this season to indicate they are capable of running the table the last few games to qualify for the playoffs.
Of course the goal is to win however this team needs to see what they have at QB moving forward into next season.

I don't disagree that we need to evaluate talent if and when playoffs becomes a lost cause. But there is no guarantee of a western crossover and at this point I would not bet a nickel on Wpg or BC playing well enough to force one. A loss to Hamilton on Saturday will make it all but impossible to catch them in the standings, but it won't make it impossible to catch Ottawa or finish third with a record equal to or better than Wpg and BC. So too early to throw in the towel even if we lose this week.

[OV Argo]

Chicken or egg?
“Progression read has to be altered” is that the play calling or the receivers not creating separation due to lack of speed and route running?
I’d say probably both.

CFL offences are very simpleton / bread & butter; for the passing game this means loading up on you favored #1 or 2 receiver, with #3 as a sometimes option, #4 seldom looked at and #5 (usually a Canadian at wide-side WR) often a complete write-off. Smart offences get diversity or trying some different things for a change of pace if your standard bread & butter plays are not working that well or defences are keying on them. This would include distributing the ball to all receivers - and might mean a game or two where the #4 & 5 receiver are targeted lots - because the D is not paying that much attention to them or expecting it, or are over-committing to the prime targets; that is also why a good H-back weapon like Cross (or Beaulieu with Ottawa) can do serious or at least effective damage if you get them the ball at least a couple or more times a game (then the D starts paying some attention to them, which opens up other stuff); and a 2nd or 3rd change of pace running back (or jet sweep type run to a receiver) getting in the game and getting the ball is another example of diversity to limit predictable same old run play to the #1 back.

Standard CFL offensive "thinkers" don't really grasp these concepts much or often though and are too in love with their same old, same old and 2 or 3 favored targets in the offence. With the Argos now - it's same old run play to Wilder, tons of passes to SJ Green and then some to Edwards and whoever is the #3 flavor of the day (Rodney Smith lately). Now if SJ Green, Edwards and Rodney Danger-less-ontheField were actually Terry Greer, Mookie Mitchell and Paul Masotti in their primes, then even a young QB like MacBeth might be able to make the passing game work very well; but those receivers ain't near that talent level (SJ only in the odd big play/ circus catch ability); just like James Wilder is just NOT a Leon McQuay or Gil Fenerty level talent RB. SO - expecting a couple of these key receivers and one pretty good RB to carry this offence , and sans Ricky Ray at QB is totally unrealistic to laughable. Why not try wayyyyyyy more diversity? - why did Cross not get the ball last game? why not air-out a long-bomb to the little used 5th receiver? why not have a 2nd change of pace RB come in the game for some work? Ask the Argo offensive brain-trust leaders these kind of questions and they would have zero reply that made any sense - you would hear same old, standard, baffle-gab.

[Argo57]

I saw a team that didn't seem to know where anyone in the secondary should be on any given play. Not sure how that clearly demonstrated the team doesn't respond better to the QB. I suppose it's possible that receivers would try harder to get open, squeeze passes tighter and not fall down if a different QB was taking snaps, but to me at least that is not exactly self-evident.

(And again, for the record, I really like Franklin, I'm glad he's on our team and I hope he stays an Argonaut for many years. If he ends up being a viable starter, that would make me very happy. I just don't see how toggling back to him at this point will suddenly make him show more than he showed in his four starts, or than MBT has shown in his four starts. The problems with this team go far beyond the play of either inexperienced QB.)

Agreed, the defensive performance this season (or lack there of) is a separate issue from MBT.
Overall Thompson has done a decent job but any QB would struggle with the group he has to throw to right now, problem is the Argos only have 2 viable targets (Edwards and Green) and periodically Cross to throw to which would make it difficult for any QB to succeed.
My point is adding Carter and Posey (if available) will give Toronto more weapons at their disposal which will help either MBT of Franklin.

[Argo57]

I don't disagree that we need to evaluate talent if and when playoffs becomes a lost cause. But there is no guarantee of a western crossover and at this point I would not bet a nickel on Wpg or BC playing well enough to force one. A loss to Hamilton on Saturday will make it all but impossible to catch them in the standings, but it won't make it impossible to catch Ottawa or finish third with a record equal to or better than Wpg and BC. So too early to throw in the towel even if we lose this week.

That’s fair Paul, either way we’ll be there to cheer them on.

[ArgoGabe22]

I'm not against going back to Franklin, especially if MBT gets nothing going. I do think Franklin's mobility is a tad overrated though. I don't expect him to rollout and go crazy legs, even if Trestman loosened it up bit. I do think Franklin plays better when relaxed, a bit goofy, and I feel that he lost a bit of that when he became a starter. It's easier when you're a backup to feel that way IMO. So far reason, I wouldn't mind seeing Franklin back there to see if he calmed down and learned a few things off on the sideline.

I see things I like in both MBT and Franklin. Both also have their flaws. I don't know if any is obviously better than one another at this point. The only real knock against Franklin was the amount of turnovers he gave up.

Looking at the team as a whole, I still don't think it really matters who the QB is anymore. This team is bad and will find ways to lose, even if the QB played better.

[lazycro]

Because it's not possible to develop at that age, or to play for many years past that age?

For the record, MBT is six weeks older than Masoli. Masoli was not handed a starting spot until he was age 29, and now look what he's doing. Was it also folly for Hamilton to start playing him a year ago?

Masoli has been with that team since 2013 and not bounced around like MBT. So he was 24 when he joined that team and then started at 29?

[Argo57]

OV, basically what you’re saying is you can’t effectively spread the ball around if you only have 2 main targets (Green and Edwards) and occasionally Cross.

[paulwoods13]

Masoli has been with that team since 2013 and not bounced around like MBT. So he was 24 when he joined that team and then started at 29?

Sure, and they decided that a 29-year-old was worth making their starter for the future -- somehow that was not deemed too old. Both guys had long apprenticeships -- one in many systems and the other in a few. Still doesn't change their ages when handed the reins.

[ArgoGabe22]

OV, basically what you’re saying is you can’t effectively spread the ball around if you only have 2 main targets (Green and Edwards) and occasionally Cross.

Although, MBT seemed to have spread the ball around in his first two starts. Not sure what happened afterwards? Teams watched the film on him, i guess.