GDT: Putty Tats @ Argonauts Friday October 12 2018

[R.J]

Franklin continues to show a lot of upside IMO, he started out very strong and faded as the game continued.
I think patience in letting him play through some rough spots will pay off long term for the Argos.

Too early to give up on Franklin as he needs reps, but eventually he's got to take advantage of his opportunities.

I agree with pretty well all of this. I also saw Burks wide open up the left sideline once, on a play where JF seemed to lock in immediately on the short middle route. He rotated between deciding too quickly on the target, and not deciding quickly enough -- most of the sacks we allowed were on the QB, IMO. That said, I still believe JF has potential to develop into an excellent QB but he will need to be coached well, and it's debatable how much coaching any of the players are getting this season. (Himebauch does seems to coach the crap out of the o-linemen on the sidelines during games, tho.)

Everyone's favourite punching bag Arash Madani tweeted last night that either Popp or Trestman won't be back and there is a lot of friction between Argo management (presumably one or both of those guys) and MLSE (presumably Manning). If it comes down to a power struggle, clearly Manning will win. I suspect a rift has developed between coach and GM -- it's the only logical explanation for the whole Carter situation. It's too bad the Argos have fallen so far in the local sporting pantheon that there are no serious reporters working the beat who could delve into this. The only good reporters around the team regularly (Naylor and Ralph) have league-wide coverage responsibilities and can't spend all of their time covering the inner workings of the Argos.

I suspect the friction between MLSE and Popp/Trestman has to do with the losing, and Popp/Trestman won't win that fight. Maybe this ends up being 2016 redux and Manning decides to keep Trestman over Popp - I hope knot tbh, as I'd rather see Trestman given the boot. I have serious concerns as to how he's running the team, and the clock management this season. Too many avoidable penalties that are all on the coaches, although I'm not sure if it's on Trestman and Cavlllo (field level) or Condell (up in the box); I do notice Calvillo on the field a lot when something goes wrong, but obviously not sure if he's just the middle man. In saying that, I'd have no issue with Popp being given the boot as well; yeah, he brought in Franklin to try and ensure Montreal Post AC didn't occur, but our OL, DL, and secondary were areas of concern in the off season, and let's be honest: he didn't do a damn thing to fix any of it (Bomben during the season is about it).

That's a lot of salary to eat up though - MLSE can afford, but would they want to ?

[R.J]

Marc Trestman to referee Al Bradbury: ‘You’re lucky I’m mic’d tonight’
http://3downnation.com/2018/10/12/ma...-micd-tonight/

Wish I recorded the game lol, but I agree with Trestman: there's no way that should have been pass interference. Banks wasn't held, impeded, tripped etc; just a cry baby, who goes for those calls.

[doubleblue]

Some rambling thoughts------Basically Hamilton is better than the Argos almost man to man. Masoli used his mobility to provide the time for his receivers to get in the clear. Yell had trouble covering his receiver all night. Franklin had a so-so game. One time he tried to force a pass to Green and Carter was streaking down the field behind coverage. Carter was waving for the ball but Franklin had locked into Green.

On two occasions, the coaches were late sending an offensive player in. Once it resulted in the QB calling a time out and another a too many men penalty. One could also question the offensive play calling. Too many times when 10 yards were needed for a first down, the pass was for 5 yards.


To be competitive, the team needs upgrades at DE's, at DB's, at OL and with some of the coaching areas

I agree. Also Trestman does seem so set in his ways using his NFL style offense and trying to force a square peg in a round hole, as the saying goes.
I believe you have been around quite a few years like myself. The Hamilton D Line and Laurent were dominating the Argo O Line. So what would have Frank Clair, Bud Grant, Leo Cahill, Bob O'Billovich etc. have done starting the second half last night? They would have started Franklin rolling out more with a pulling Guard or Fullback to give him more time and open up that Hamilton defense for the Argo receivers including Duron Carter.
I don't think the Argo defense is good enough to beat Hamilton, but they could have made the game closer and interesting changing things up in the second half. IMO
Still can't believe the way Trestman has black balled Carter from his offense. Something is going to have to give when the season is over.
When we hear Manning say something to the affect "we will be evaluating everyone" that could be code for saying we think Popp and Trestman screwed up big time.

[ArgoZ]

Interesting info Paul. The only reason, (so we were told) that both Popp and Trestman came to Toronto was each other. A season of compounded losses and everyone can't get along. No surprise. The GM should always be on the same page as the coach. Pressure from losing makes people choose their own solutions over others. Coincidently, Manning has almost the same problem with TFC at the moment.

[paulwoods13]

Marc Trestman to referee Al Bradbury: ‘You’re lucky I’m mic’d tonight’
http://3downnation.com/2018/10/12/ma...-micd-tonight/

Wish I recorded the game lol, but I agree with Trestman: there's no way that should have been pass interference. Banks wasn't held, impeded, tripped etc; just a cry baby, who goes for those calls.

Right, but yelling at Bradbury is silly. He did not make the call initially, nor did he confirm it. The culprits are the back judge (or field judge, whomever made the call) and the replay official. One replay seemed to show a tiny bit of hand-fighting late in the route, but that stuff gets allowed all the time without any call. Unfortunately there was enough there that the replay official probably couldn't overturn it even if he wanted to. Had the call gone the other way (i.e. no call, and Hamilton challenged), I doubt the call would have been overturned to DPI.

[Will]

The saying goes, "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all."

I think I will follow this mantra.

[ArgoZ]

I wish refs would just let the players play more. We've seen so many games completely change over questionable calls. It's not like Banks was going to make the catch. Argos finally make it to the QB and get flagged for tackling to hard. The NFL has had this problem this year too.

[R.J]

Right, but yelling at Bradbury is silly. He did not make the call initially, nor did he confirm it. The culprits are the back judge (or field judge, whomever made the call) and the replay official. One replay seemed to show a tiny bit of hand-fighting late in the route, but that stuff gets allowed all the time without any call. Unfortunately there was enough there that the replay official probably couldn't overturn it even if he wanted to. Had the call gone the other way (i.e. no call, and Hamilton challenged), I doubt the call would have been overturned to DPI.

Makes you wonder why we even have replay officials seeing as they seem to get a lot of calls wrong (and the League apologizes for it). Hand fighting shouldn't be considered DPI IMO, but those calls seem to go Banks way A LOT.

[R.J]

The saying goes, "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all."

I think I will follow this mantra.

I say rant/vent on. We don't have a call in show to express our desires to fire everyone lol, but we do have this place. Twitter as well I suppose, but twitter is a black hole of lunacy IMO.

[Will]

I say rant/vent on. We don't have a call in show to express our desires to fire everyone lol, but we do have this place. Twitter as well I suppose, but twitter is a black hole of lunacy IMO.

I'm only applying the quote to myself.

The rest of you can rant/vent on.

[doubleblue]

Marc Trestman to referee Al Bradbury: ‘You’re lucky I’m mic’d tonight’
http://3downnation.com/2018/10/12/ma...-micd-tonight/

Wish I recorded the game lol, but I agree with Trestman: there's no way that should have been pass interference. Banks wasn't held, impeded, tripped etc; just a cry baby, who goes for those calls.

Yah that was a phantom call IMO. I don't think it was Bradbury who made the call, but he was the Referee who could have over ruled and said "there was no infraction on the play". But that doesn't happen very often. I'm one of those who says "let them play the game". I didn't think there was any serious infraction on Hamilton's Williams kick return for a TD, but it is a fine line. Where do you draw the line.
Difficult to find enough good officials who can make that split second common sense call. We have to remember they are basically amateur officials who do this beside their regular jobs.
Still bothers me about that call last year where Winnipeg's Miller fell in front of Llevi Noel who got called for an illegal block. Of course who ever was the eye in the sky wouldn't over turn it probably because he didn't want a League sponsor to lose a million on his call.
My official rant for the day. lol

[R.J]

I'm only applying the quote to myself.

The rest of you can rant/vent on.

I understand, but your viewpoint is always appreciated here; seeing as your one of the calmer non kool aid drinkers.

[AngeloV]

Everyone's favourite punching bag Arash Madani tweeted last night that either Popp or Trestman won't be back and there is a lot of friction between Argo management (presumably one or both of those guys) and MLSE (presumably Manning). If it comes down to a power struggle, clearly Manning will win. I suspect a rift has developed between coach and GM -- it's the only logical explanation for the whole Carter situation. s.

We didn't need Trash to tell us there was a rift. It was so obvious. I suggested that on here a couple of weeks ago. It was so obvious that Popp went out to get Franklin to be the next guy up, but Trestman is in love with guys that put football before their personal lives like MBT. The Carter thing was brutal too. We all suggested that Carter wasn't a Trestman type guy and figured for that reason he wasn't coming here, yet Popp signed him. What followed IMO was Trestman showing Popp who is in charge, and came up with some BS story about Carter needing to learn the system. That IMO was an FU to Popp. If he was new to the league, it would be one thing, but a vet receiver can just plug an play. QB or another receiver can relay his responsibilities to him. I've been saying this on twitter for a couple of weeks, but I really hope Trestman isn't back next year.

[R.J]

I'm actually shocked that Angelo of all people has turned on Trestman. Especially considering he was one of th few who wanted to keep Milanovich around.

[AngeloV]

T
Duron Carter? In my opinion... cut him now. One of the only times I saw him run with any effort was when the final whistle went and he sprinted off the field... first one in the showers... he should be the first one shown the door.

.

I have to disagree. Carter has started the last 4 games, and SJ Green has had by far his most productive stretch over that time. Even in BC, when Green left early, Myles Whyte took his spot and made plays. There's a reason for that, and it's Carter's presence. I don't blame him for being frustrated, but it's not affecting his play, and he's kept his mouth shut. Trestman is the problem, not Carter. Trestman can't coach young QB's. That's my opinion, and I will stand by it.

You know there's a problem with play calling when we can predict every screen pass before it happens. There is no imagination in his offence whatsoever. Ricky Ray wasn't going to play forever, and Trestman didn't adjust. If this was Scott Milanovich, the cries for his head would be deafening. At least it took him 5 seasons before he had a really bad season.

I'm actually shocked that Angelo of all people has turned on Trestman. Especially considering he was one of th few who wanted to keep Milanovich around.

As you can tell, I still wish Milanovich was here. He had 1 bad year, and considering the crap he endured in 2015 with the schedule, he was a great coach.

[paulwoods13]

Yah that was a phantom call IMO. I don't think it was Bradbury who made the call, but he was the Referee who could have over ruled and said "there was no infraction on the play". But that doesn't happen very often.

A referee will never overrule a call made 30 yards downfield. He's not in position to see it properly from such a distance. He has to (and we have to) rely on his fellow officials to make the correct calls in their areas of responsibility. Refs are essentially responsible personally for holding, roughing the passer, intentional grounding, time-count violations, and that's about it. Sometimes an official close to where a call was made will advise the ref to overrule the call, but only if he had a great angle and closeup view of the play.

[R.J]

Interestingly enough Matt Dunigan agrees with Angelo about Trestman and young QB's. As I said when it was rumoured that Trestman was going to be hired: Trestman has never developed a young QB. And it appears he's still set to continue that trend. I like Trestman as a person, but considering I never wanted him here in the first place; I wouldn't mind seeing him leave.

I still wonder how the new football ops will work - does a fired coach's/GM's salary count against it ? Or if they're fired prior to January 1st would it carry over ?

Popp is a whole other issue, but when is the last time he had a good draft ? 2006 ?
Admittedly, Montreal's secondary and defence as a whole was usually pretty good for a lot of the Popp years. Even at the end when things went downhill the D was pretty good under Thorpe, but holy hell is our defence terrible this year. Crap DL, invisible linebacking corps, and the secondary looks like they were coached by Greg Quick. In saying that, I'm not sure who could take over for Popp ? McEvoy, Murphy, O'Day, Rigmaiden, Allemang, Burke, Austin, Snyder, Gorrell or Rosetti ? I suppose Sunderland may end up being available.

Kind of funny to think that Edmonton may end up losing Reilly to BC in the off season, and already traded away Franklin. Although, it still wouldn't shock me to see Franklin traded away.

[RB957]

I have to disagree. Carter has started the last 4 games, and SJ Green has had by far his most productive stretch over that time. Even in BC, when Green left early, Myles Whyte took his spot and made plays. There's a reason for that, and it's Carter's presence. I don't blame him for being frustrated, but it's not affecting his play, and he's kept his mouth shut.

I know that comment has been made about the effect of Carter's presence, and that this has created openings for other receivers, but he was brought here to be a play maker not a decoy. You're right, he has kept his mouth shut (for now), but a friend I brought to last night's game and another friend watching the game on TV both commented on a perceived lackadaisical appearance about him. On one series, he walked so slowly to the huddle, it looked to me like he barely made it in time to hear the play call. The whole situation has not been handled well from the beginning, and for a number of different reasons - be it coaching decisions, play calling, whatever - his potential to help the team has not been realized. At some point, given his history... this is going to blow up. And I predict it will be messy.

[Argo57]

Too early to give up on Franklin as he needs reps, but eventually he's got to take advantage of his opportunities.

I suspect the friction between MLSE and Popp/Trestman has to do with the losing, and Popp/Trestman won't win that fight. Maybe this ends up being 2016 redux and Manning decides to keep Trestman over Popp - I hope knot tbh, as I'd rather see Trestman given the boot. I have serious concerns as to how he's running the team, and the clock management this season. Too many avoidable penalties that are all on the coaches, although I'm not sure if it's on Trestman and Cavlllo (field level) or Condell (up in the box); I do notice Calvillo on the field a lot when something goes wrong, but obviously not sure if he's just the middle man. In saying that, I'd have no issue with Popp being given the boot as well; yeah, he brought in Franklin to try and ensure Montreal Post AC didn't occur, but our OL, DL, and secondary were areas of concern in the off season, and let's be honest: he didn't do a damn thing to fix any of it (Bomben during the season is about it).

That's a lot of salary to eat up though - MLSE can afford, but would they want to ?

Quite sad to see how things can fall apart in less than one season, 2017 Popp and Trestman arrive and recreate the magic shown in Montreal, 2018 the onfield product absolutely sucks and if true friction between the Coach, GM and ownership which may very lead to changes in this off season all in the midst of trying to rebuild the brand.
Popp and Trestman must own this season’s result but my overriding concern is the fact that the guy making the decisions (Manning) in regards to who goes-stays and most importantly who replaces them has limited knowledge and connections in the CFL.
We’ve gone from optimism and stability to more uncertainty.

[AngeloV]

Quite sad to see how things can fall apart in less than one season, 2017 Popp and Trestman arrive and recreate the magic shown in Montreal, 2018 the onfield product absolutely sucks and if true friction between the Coach, GM and ownership which may very lead to changes in this off season all in the midst of trying to rebuild the brand.
Popp and Trestman must own this season’s result but my overriding concern is the fact that the guy making the decisions (Manning) in regards to who goes-stays and most importantly who replaces them has limited knowledge and connections in the CFL.
We’ve gone from optimism and stability to more uncertainty.

Your point about Manning making the decisions about football ops is well taken. Personally, I hope Popp stays. I think there is talent out there, just not the right coaching staff, especially considering most of the talent is young, especially on D. I’ve said it recently, but I’d love to see the Argos poach Steinauer or Claybrooks as the next HC. I’m sure Steinauer would give Condell more freedom as a coordinator and there is a connection there. Claybrooks has had a lot of success and might bring some of that winning mentality from Calgary.