Popp/Chamblin Staying or Going?

[Shatto]

Both Popp and Chamblin are unlikely to be here next year unless there is a miraculous turn around this year. However, far more important at this time, is the replacing of our present part time and CFL inexperienced president, with a knowledgeable experienced CFL individual, who hopefully can bring some charisma and media savvy to the role. Most studies of effective organizations point out the absolute importance of an highly effective leader, in order for an organization to be successful. That replacement should be in place asap, so they may determine whether, either or both coach and GM, should be replaced and what criteria needs to be set, if replacements for these positions need to occur.

Manning, may be a fine person but he is not a CFL knowledgeable individual and I have little faith in the future of this team until he is replaced. Here's hoping MLSE realizes the essential necessity to place a highly qualified and 100% fully committed individual into the role. After all, hope springs eternal!

[paulwoods13]

Yes, and back in those days they'd have 50,000 in the stands and at the time, he may have been correct

Not true. Crowds peaked in late 1970s (1978, I believe) in the high 40s. By the time Sazio arrived in 1981 crowds had started to trend downward from the peak but Argos were still a huge deal in Toronto. But crowds dropped sharply and cotinually after 1983, when the Argos really started to reap the cost of Sazio's refusal to market. He was never correct in that belief for any part of his tenure in Toronto.

[Will]

Not true. Crowds peaked in late 1970s (1978, I believe) in the high 40s. By the time Sazio arrived in 1981 crowds had started to trend downward from the peak but Argos were still a huge deal in Toronto. But crowds dropped sharply and cotinually after 1983, when the Argos really started to reap the cost of Sazio's refusal to market. He was never correct in that belief for any part of his tenure in Toronto.

What was the thinking at the time vis-a-vis the declining crowds. I'm sure some would have attributed (in 1981) it to the team's poor play on the field. It probably wouldn't have been until 1984-1985 that the Blue Jays ascent started to catch some eyes. It also wasn't until the mid-80's that the situation with some of the franchises started to get really tenuous.

[paulwoods13]

Jays started to make real inroads around 1981, and by 1983 were in contention and had a lot of people were getting very excited about them. But the incursion began at the start, in 1977, when a bunch of people became serious baseball fans for the first time. Some of them had also been Argo fans and gradually fell away (especially after the drought finally ended in 1983); others were potential CFL fans who never paid the league any attention once they had glommed on to baseball. The CFL's last huge TV contract was 1983-85: $11M/season. After 1986, CTV pulled out of football and that was when teams that had relied on the relatively big TV money brought in by Jake Gaudaur were suddenly left with scraps. The first serious signs of trouble were in 1982 when the Alouettes folded and were replaced by the Concordes, who drew terribly small crowds in their five years in the Big Owe before the franchise folded on the eve of the 1987 season. IMO you can trace the CFL's slow and steady decline as a business to the launch of the Blue Jays in 1977, with many other factors coming into play over the ensuing years and decades that have left it now as a niche product rather than a mainstream product.

[argolio]

The Jays spent big money on marketing right from their first year. Their ads were everywhere.

[Jon Gonzo]

Not true. Crowds peaked in late 1970s (1978, I believe) in the high 40s. By the time Sazio arrived in 1981 crowds had started to trend downward from the peak but Argos were still a huge deal in Toronto. But crowds dropped sharply and cotinually after 1983, when the Argos really started to reap the cost of Sazio's refusal to market. He was never correct in that belief for any part of his tenure in Toronto.

The overall perception and explanation that I have always heard, and pretty much accepted, was that the "blackout rule" set Southern Ontario back. Every Eastern team has struggled, and been on the watch list, or completely disappeared at one time or another.

Widespread NFL coverage on TV in Southern Ontario, I'm sure also contributed as did the aforementioned arrival of the Blue Jays.

There are more choices in Ontario than out West for entertainment options and the West is more isolated.

I had forgotten that Sazio ever did or said that, but the 3 issues I have listed above are the issues that I hear have primarily contributed to the decline of the Toronto Argonauts profile over the past 30-40 years.

However, I certainly see how old minded/old school thinking didn't help.

As I mentioned, when I used Sazio as an example, I simply meant a person who could take charge with football knowledge and put his stamp on this team like Wally Buono or Huff would do.

Point being, it all starts at the top.

[AngeloV]

I will continue to believe the biggest issue was when the NFL tv deal skyrocketed after the strike in the early 80’s. Their players started making 5-10 times what CFL players were and it made the perception of minor league very real in Southern Ontario

[Blue90]

I can't say I support keeping either beyond the season. WHile the players are playing for Chamblin, his in-game decisions are so mind baffling I can't see them improving.

I will be the first to admit I'd complain about Milonovich not going for gimmie 3rd and shorts but he would not be making the oddball challenges, etc. that Chamblin is doing.

Agreed. The coaching decisions by Chamblin have been terrible, example his challenges, gambling/not gambling on third down, etc.

Also the lack of discipline regarding penalties. Last game 12 penalties for 131 yards.

[ArgoRavi]

Yes, because I’m not a knee jerk reaction kind of a guy. There is no denying the team has improved a ton since the beginning of the season, and nothing in pro sports is worse than changing coaches and management every year. I have complained a lot about his in game decisions, but still not ready to give up on him.

As is usually the case, AV is correct. Let's also see how this team continues to evolve in the second half of the season, whether they make the playoffs or not.

[ArgoRavi]

Agreed. The coaching decisions by Chamblin have been terrible, example his challenges, gambling/not gambling on third down, etc.

Also the lack of discipline regarding penalties. Last game 12 penalties for 131 yards.

In fairness, the Argos have been one of the least penalized teams this season. They have had a couple of games where they have taken more penalties but I would argue that lack of discipline hasn't really been an issue.

[ArgoRavi]

What was the thinking at the time vis-a-vis the declining crowds. I'm sure some would have attributed (in 1981) it to the team's poor play on the field. It probably wouldn't have been until 1984-1985 that the Blue Jays ascent started to catch some eyes. It also wasn't until the mid-80's that the situation with some of the franchises started to get really tenuous.

The Jays were seen as more "family-friendly" also. I remember Marty York writing about bad behaviour at Argos games with drunks urinating in the stands.

[Argo57]

The Jays were seen as more "family-friendly" also. I remember Marty York writing about bad behaviour at Argos games with drunks urinating in the stands.

Booze was regularly smuggled into Argo games in those days, I remember my dad warning me to hustle up leaving the stadium so I wouldn’t get hit by an empty bottle being thrown from above.

[paulwoods13]

The overall perception and explanation that I have always heard, and pretty much accepted, was that the "blackout rule" set Southern Ontario back. Every Eastern team has struggled, and been on the watch list, or completely disappeared at one time or another.

Widespread NFL coverage on TV in Southern Ontario, I'm sure also contributed as did the aforementioned arrival of the Blue Jays.

There are more choices in Ontario than out West for entertainment options and the West is more isolated.

I had forgotten that Sazio ever did or said that, but the 3 issues I have listed above are the issues that I hear have primarily contributed to the decline of the Toronto Argonauts profile over the past 30-40 years.

However, I certainly see how old minded/old school thinking didn't help.

As I mentioned, when I used Sazio as an example, I simply meant a person who could take charge with football knowledge and put his stamp on this team like Wally Buono or Huff would do.

Point being, it all starts at the top.

There are, of course, many factors in the slow, steady decline of the Argonauts as a business over the past 35 years. Lack of effective (or in some years any) marketing, TV blackouts, terrible stadium, smart marketing by the Blue Jays and later the Raptors and TFC, the explosion of interest in the NFL caused by many things including TV production values and the exponential rise in player salaries, and there are no doubt many others (probably including some obvious ones I'm forgetting at the moment). A book could be written about it. I have no intention of writing such a book, but if the brand were ever to die completely (and obviously I hope that never happens), it's a subject that someone should tackle.

As for it all starting at the top, on the surface it seems hard to argue, but on the other hand, how many purely football people have been responsible for successful business operations anywhere in the CFL? There's no doubt Hufnagel and Buono, to name two, are outstanding football people who have built consistent winners. But the Lions are hardly succeeding as a business, and Calgary is not blowing the doors off at the box office. Of course we want and need a good football person to head up football ops, but it is arguably even more important to have a good head of business ops, and I'd argue that it's far too early to judge whether Manning is or isn't a success there. Some of the criticism that comes his way seems to be based on false narratives ("he's not a football guy" -- he worked for the Philadelphia Eagles, and anyway, IMO the CEO does not need to be a football guy) and some of it is based on things he can't control. It's not his decision to have one person run two franchises. Anyone who doesn't like that should direct their criticism at MLSE, not Manning.

[Bleeds Double Blue]

Another game, another loss, another example of our side being out coached by the opposition. After watching today's second half collapse I was hoping that the highlight package would include a clip of Chamblin and Chapdelaine doing the tuck and roll after being tossed from the team bus as it sped down the QEW. Alas it was not to be and sadly won't happen until this pitiful excuse for a season is over. But then what? Who do we go after or better yet who will accept the job? The guys we have now were not the team's first choice. Or second. We wound up with these Bozos because nobody else wanted the job. How many candidates turned the Argos down and why would coaches like Lapolice choose to stay in a coordinator's role rather than take a head coaching position in Toronto? Surely there must be someone out there that knows what they are doing and wants to be there.

Sorry guys, losing to Hamilton always make me cranky.

[Antwon]

I assume Lapolice didn't want to work under Popp.

[Argo57]

I assume Lapolice didn't want to work under Popp.

Not sure about him not wanting to work with Popp but it was reported LaPolice wanted to choose his own coaching staff which wasn’t possible with the Argos due to the asinine cap.

[doubleblue]

Popp/Chamblin going or staying? Well after much thought from my comfortable arm chair QB position, I believe that they very well could be back. Unless Randy's Management salary cap is rescinded. Positional Coaches will take the fall and of course some players will be replaced. Not very hard to come up with that idea of course. Cory Chamblin might just up and resign for "personal" reasons again and open up the door for a new HC who will come in and promise to fix everything. But that is probably a pipe dream.
I expect Jim Popp, that smooth talking silver fox, to show Bill Manning a great plan going forward and how this team is close to winning with a few tweaks here and there. With the biggest tweak hopefully at QB.
This team kind of reminds me of Hamilton a few years ago before Jeremiah Masoli was anointed their starting QB. The only problem is the Argos don't have a Masoli waiting in the wings. That's going to be the difficult part. With the Argos having the 1st or 2nd pick in the upcoming draft there would be a good chance of them being able to pick the Canadian QB at Ohio Nathan Rourke with their first round pick. But if he is drafted in the NFL signing him would be hard to do. The guy is the type of QB needed in the CFL as he runs very well besides being a good passer. Might have to make him an offer including a signing bonus in the Mike Reilly pay range. Plan B maybe would be Boise State QB Brett Rypien who signed and was released by the Denver Broncos. He is another CFL type QB IMO and can be classed as a Canadian. What's important here is that he would have to go through a supplemental draft where again Argos would have one of the first cracks at him. But one of these two would have more name recognition IMO to get some interest and excitement for us long suffering fans.
I'm sure there are other QB's out there who are just as good as these two, but are very likely on other teams negotiation lists. Could they start right away? We won't talk about that until they are signed sealed delivered and we all buy our season tickets.

[paulwoods13]

I would bet my season's tickets that no CFL team will pay Mike Reilly money to a QB fresh out of college.

[Argo57]

I would bet my season's tickets that no CFL team will pay Mike Reilly money to a QB fresh out of college.

Or use the 1st overall pick on a QB when your O-Line is as bad as Toronto’s is at this point.

[ArgoGabe22]

The team hasn't given up on their coach. At least that's what it looks like. The defense, especially the line were great in the first half. I don't know if the players like playing for Chamblin and if this will dictate whether Chamblin will be back or not.