Suggestions for Next Year

[Jon Gonzo]

I get that not everyone is as enamoured of MBT as I am, but what makes you believe an NFL journeyman would do better next year than a guy with more than 20 starts in the CFL, the majority of them quality starts at that? It takes almost every quarterback who comes up here a couple of years to figure out how to play in this league; MBT at least has been through that learning curve. I don't believe there is a fringe NFL QB who could step in and start effectively in the CFL next season, and certainly not one who still has aspirations of playing in the NFL.

It's interesting that you raise Theismann and Barton as examples. Barton did little of note as an Argo QB, and lasted just two years (and that was when the CFL could actually outbid the NFL for talent). Theismann was a third-round draft choice; as you note, there is no way to get such a player nowadays.

I have no problem with MBT as a 2nd stringer. In fact, I think he's one of the best in the league coming off the bench. Due to his age, I could see him moving on, but I wouldn't pan a re-signing

[paulwoods13]

Under player suggestions for next year here are players I would like to see back. Imports: Got to have: WR Derel Walker, Rodney Smith, S.J. Green, RB/KR Chris Rainey, OLB Micah Awe, MLB Tobi Antigha, CB/S Alden Darby and CB Jonathan Mincy

Come back and win a job: WR Armanti Edwards, RB Brandon Burks, A.J. Ouellette, OL Isiah Cage, LB/RE Kennan Gilchrest, DE Fred Bishop, DT Davon Coleman, DT Jhaustin Thomas, DB Trumaine Washington, LB Ian Wild, LB Bear Woods, CB Jonathan Dowling, QB McLeod Bethel-Thompson, QB Zach Collaros, DB Kevin Fogg, DB Lorenzo White. Need to see an upgrade in the Import talent at some of these positions for sure.

Canadian Players will in most cases be brought back. Got to have:

OT Jamal Campbell, OC Sean McEwen, SB/ST Llevi Noel, DT Cleon Laing, DB Robert Woodson, DE Rob Smith
Players on the bubble: DT Hassan Barry, LB Sean Harrington, LB Nakas Onyeka, WR Alex Charette, K Tyler Crapigna, K ZacK Medeiros, LS Joe Spaziani

I agree with most of this. I'd add Boateng and Cross (and probably Reinhart) to the list of must-re-sign NATs. As for the INTs, I haven't seen nearly enough from Antigha to put him on the got-to-have list. Rainey may have hit his expiry date, but on the right deal I'd like him back. I like Gilchrist, Thomas and Coleman and hope all are with us next season. Dowling remains an intriguing prospect who I think has often played out of position.

[paulwoods13]

I have no problem with MBT as a 2nd stringer. In fact, I think he's one of the best in the league coming off the bench. Due to his age, I could see him moving on, but I wouldn't pan a re-signing

IMO if Prukop (who has been with the team as long as MBT but is six years younger) had played as well as MBT has at QB, fans would be feeling set at the position. I personally don't feel 31 is too old to become a starting QB, and I don't see any younger free agents who are proven as CFL starters. Arbuckle looks promising but is still very light on game experience. Streveler? No thanks. Fajardo is unlikely to hit free agency and I'm not 100% sold on him as a long-term starter. That leaves Nichols and Masoli, who are in the same age range as MBT, and Collaros who has injury baggage (but whom I'd like to sign anyway).

[Rich]

Under player suggestions for next year here are players I would like to see back. Imports: Got to have: WR Derel Walker, Rodney Smith, S.J. Green, RB/KR Chris Rainey, OLB Micah Awe, MLB Tobi Antigha, CB/S Alden Darby and CB Jonathan Mincy

Canadian Players will in most cases be brought back. Got to have:

OT Jamal Campbell, OC Sean McEwen, SB/ST Llevi Noel, DT Cleon Laing, DB Robert Woodson, DE Rob Smith
Players on the bubble: DT Hassan Barry, LB Sean Harrington, LB Nakas Onyeka, WR Alex Charette, K Tyler Crapigna, K ZacK Medeiros, LS Joe Spaziani

Tobi Antigha had by far his best game as an Argo last Friday, it looks like we finally found the right position for him.

As for Canadians, you forgot Justin Herdman-Reed, who I think was the nicest surprise on the Argos this year, firmly establishing himself as a bonafide starter.

[Rich]

That leaves Nichols and Masoli, who are in the same age range as MBT

Surely Paul you'd agree that Masoli would be an upgrade over MBT.

[Shatto]

Have to agree with Rich, Masoli would be a big upgrade over MBT. Masoli's play has been of high enough quality, that he could be a candidate for league MVP. This is not to denigrate MBT as he has played very well this year, under trying circumstances but I'm not convinced he is the answer to our need for a starter. That said, I hope MBT stays as he could be a very valuable backup and as we have seen this year, having a good backup is essential.

[paulwoods13]

Surely Paul you'd agree that Masoli would be an upgrade over MBT.

Yes, I do agree. Also more expensive. I'm not at all opposed to pursuing him, assuming he is fully recovered from his injury and not interested in joining June Jones in the XFL, but I also want the roster upgraded elsewhere, so QB salary is a factor. Signing him would also seem to be at odds with the desire many posters have to develop our own young QB. That said, I could envisage a scenario where we try to sign Masoli to starter money and MBT to good backup money, based on the fact that those two guys are close friends and MBT seems to like it here. But if we don't sign him to decent money, I expect someone else in this league will.

[doubleblue]

Tobi Antigha had by far his best game as an Argo last Friday, it looks like we finally found the right position for him.

As for Canadians, you forgot Justin Herdman-Reed, who I think was the nicest surprise on the Argos this year, firmly establishing himself as a bonafide starter.

No. Most of the Canadians would be back except maybe some of the guys on the back end of the roster. Herdman-Reed is a good player to rotate into the lineup, but IMO he will get wore down as a full time starter. He can start but I would want to see Antigha in there in the middle. More of a difference maker.

[gilthethrill]

Bear in mind that Toby A was facing a qb making his first career start as a pro outside of Fort MacMurray. Having said that, I do believe he, like many others have been misused and mis assessed this season.

[paulwoods13]

I think it's folly to anoint Antigha as a starting MLB based on one game against a bad team. Other than the two picks last game, has he done anything else this season, at any position, to be deemed must-sign? Not to my eyes. That doesn't mean he can't become a great player, but imo there is as good a chance, or better, that he fades away and is forgotten. Honestly, if I was presented with a choice of Herdman-Reed (a natural LB) or Antigha, I would definitely choose the former.

[doubleblue]

Tobi Antigha had by far his best game as an Argo last Friday, it looks like we finally found the right position for him.

As for Canadians, you forgot Justin Herdman-Reed, who I think was the nicest surprise on the Argos this year, firmly establishing himself as a bonafide starter.

I agree Herdman-Reed was a nice surprise to some (not OV) lol He proved to have a nose for the ball like he and his brother did at SFU. But you notice he played a lot only on 1st down and was replaced on the 2nd and long because of his cover skills. Antigha has more size and speed so could quite possibly play more full time. We will see how it goes. Just my opinion. I'm not playing God here.

[Tobin Rote]

I get that not everyone is as enamoured of MBT as I am, but what makes you believe an NFL journeyman would do better next year than a guy with more than 20 starts in the CFL, the majority of them quality starts at that? It takes almost every quarterback who comes up here a couple of years to figure out how to play in this league; MBT at least has been through that learning curve. I don't believe there is a fringe NFL QB who could step in and start effectively in the CFL next season, and certainly not one who still has aspirations of playing in the NFL.

It's interesting that you raise Theismann and Barton as examples. Barton did little of note as an Argo QB, and lasted just two years (and that was when the CFL could actually outbid the NFL for talent). Theismann was a third-round draft choice; as you note, there is no way to get such a player nowadays.

In fairness, Greg Barton had a very good rookie season in the CFL... splitting the quarterback duties with Theismann in 1971. He was terrible the following year when Theismann got hurt early. Although CFL teams are no longer able to compete in signing NFL draft picks... I firmly believe that there will be undrafted QBs in 2020 who can be better than anyone on our roster today. Same goes for the more experienced quarterbacks who play NFL pre-season games but do not make the 53 man roster at cut down time... especially now that most teams keep only 2 experienced pivots on the active roster... and maybe a developmental quarterback on the practice roster. That's less than 100 quarterbacks under NFL contract... and I believe that there are more players than that who are still interested in playing football... and who could potentially lead a CFL team. Even most of the QB's allocated to XFL teams this past week would be an upgrade on what we have at present.

As for MBT... I really don't have anything against the guy necessarily... and the circumstances around the team this year have hardly helped him to be successful. I also agree that it does take some time for any quarterback to get acclimated to the game in Canada. However, a quarterback who is much more mobile than MBT simply has better chance to be an offensive threat while he's learning.

I seriously doubt that any plan to drastically improve the team for next season... which is the only way that they'd have gotten Pinball to become involved again... could involve re-purposing this year's quarterbacks. They just aren't good enough.

[argolio]

I don't see how any sane person wouldn't agree that MBT has clearly proven himself to be no worse than a legitimate #2 CFL QB. On a team with so many problems, his numbers and attitude compared to Franklin's have been night and day. The question is what happens if the Argos want to re-sign him.

Do they see MBT as a #1? Obviously management will try to upgrade our talent, but if they can't, or if a lot of injuries hit, we'd need a QB dynamic enough to make up for some of our shortcomings. MBT isn't that kind of QB.

If they sign Player X to be #1 and MBT is okay with #2 money, that would adversely affect O'Connor's development by spending another season on the practice roster/injured list. Why would he want to come back for a third season after that?

[paulwoods13]

I don't think there is any chance O'Connor will spend any time on the practice roster next season. He hasn't this year -- either active or on IR. A team would snap him up if he went on PR, imo. He'll either be on the 46 or on IR next year, imo. Ideally he'll be on the 45, dressed for every game.

[paulwoods13]

I firmly believe that there will be undrafted QBs in 2020 who can be better than anyone on our roster today. Same goes for the more experienced quarterbacks who play NFL pre-season games but do not make the 53 man roster at cut down time... especially now that most teams keep only 2 experienced pivots on the active roster... and maybe a developmental quarterback on the practice roster. That's less than 100 quarterbacks under NFL contract... and I believe that there are more players than that who are still interested in playing football... and who could potentially lead a CFL team. Even most of the QB's allocated to XFL teams this past week would be an upgrade on what we have at present.

At the risk of repeating myself -- other than Ricky Ray 17 years ago, when has a QB come up from the U.S. and played effectively in his first CFL season? I can't think of anyone other than Cleo Lemon, who meets the definition of fringe NFLer -- and who was detested (wrongly IMO) by many if not most Argo fans. I just don't see any possibility of anyone new to Canadian football outplaying what we would get from MBT if he were to come back here next season.

[gilthethrill]

At the risk of repeating myself -- other than Ricky Ray 17 years ago, when has a QB come up from the U.S. and played effectively in his first CFL season? I can't think of anyone other than Cleo Lemon, who meets the definition of fringe NFLer -- and who was detested (wrongly IMO) by many if not most Argo fans. I just don't see any possibility of anyone new to Canadian football outplaying what we would get from MBT if he were to come back here next season.

I was going to suggest former NFL backup Clint Longley, but he lasted a mere 8 games as an Argo. See one of his old jerseys being worn at BMO Field from time to time.

[Argofan_1000]

In fairness, Greg Barton had a very good rookie season in the CFL... splitting the quarterback duties with Theismann in 1971. He was terrible the following year when Theismann got hurt early. Although CFL teams are no longer able to compete in signing NFL draft picks... I firmly believe that there will be undrafted QBs in 2020 who can be better than anyone on our roster today. Same goes for the more experienced quarterbacks who play NFL pre-season games but do not make the 53 man roster at cut down time... especially now that most teams keep only 2 experienced pivots on the active roster... and maybe a developmental quarterback on the practice roster. That's less than 100 quarterbacks under NFL contract... and I believe that there are more players than that who are still interested in playing football... and who could potentially lead a CFL team. Even most of the QB's allocated to XFL teams this past week would be an upgrade on what we have at present.

As for MBT... I really don't have anything against the guy necessarily... and the circumstances around the team this year have hardly helped him to be successful. I also agree that it does take some time for any quarterback to get acclimated to the game in Canada. However, a quarterback who is much more mobile than MBT simply has better chance to be an offensive threat while he's learning.

I seriously doubt that any plan to drastically improve the team for next season... which is the only way that they'd have gotten Pinball to become involved again... could involve re-purposing this year's quarterbacks. They just aren't good enough.

Does anyone know how the CFL signed Moon, Theismann, Tom Clements, Matty, Holloway, Bo, Harris, and I don't know how many more QB's I am missing. Were they high NFL draft picks and we used money to sign them? Were they passed over by the NFL. Is there a common thread among these guys?

I wondered if it can't be duplicated today.

[ArgoZ]

Does anyone know how the CFL signed Moon, Theismann, Tom Clements, Matty, Holloway, Bo, Harris, and I don't know how many more QB's I am missing. Were they high NFL draft picks and we used money to sign them? Were they passed over by the NFL. Is there a common thread among these guys?

I wondered if it can't be duplicated today.

Money, attitude and a touch of racism for some, are why those Quarterbacks came to Canada. Bo legitimately had an NFL shot, but got paid well enough to stay in Canada. I’m sure there is talent out there to fill 9 CFL teams, but it seems to always take a year to learn the CFL way. We hear all the excuses about motion, 12th man, wide side throws, etc. It’s still football. I think it’s more of a testament to the level of play and talent in this league than a few different rules. I also wonder how many legit QB’s give it all up after realizing their only option is Canada.

[paulwoods13]

Does anyone know how the CFL signed Moon, Theismann, Tom Clements, Matty, Holloway, Bo, Harris, and I don't know how many more QB's I am missing. Were they high NFL draft picks and we used money to sign them? Were they passed over by the NFL. Is there a common thread among these guys?

I wondered if it can't be duplicated today.

Moon: black QB when NFL did not want black QBs.
Theismann: NFL Dolphins thought he was a kick returner, not a pro QB.
Clements: No NFL interest.
Dunigan: No NFL interest.
Holloway: Black QB, also "too small". NFL (Patriots) wanted him to play DB.
If by Harris you mean Trevor Harris, an entirely different era but same issue: no NFL interest.
BLM: Little to no NFL interest, at least initially.

Theismann's the only one who was drafted relatively high in the NFL (third round) and Argos were able to outbid the Dolphins. CFL often outbid NFL for players in those days. NFL salaries didn't skyrocket until mid-1980s.

[doubleblue]

Moon: black QB when NFL did not want black QBs.
Theismann: NFL Dolphins thought he was a kick returner, not a pro QB.
Clements: No NFL interest.
Dunigan: No NFL interest.
Holloway: Black QB, also "too small". NFL (Patriots) wanted him to play DB.
If by Harris you mean Trevor Harris, an entirely different era but same issue: no NFL interest.
BLM: Little to no NFL interest, at least initially.

Theismann's the only one who was drafted relatively high in the NFL (third round) and Argos were able to outbid the Dolphins. CFL often outbid NFL for players in those days. NFL salaries didn't skyrocket until mid-1980s.

Actually Theismann was Miami's 4th round pick in 1971. The Dolphins tried to low ball him which gave Leo Cahill his chance to strike. Leo would say later that Bassett told him "don't come back without him" (Theismann).
I'm not so sure any US College QB can have the early success as Joe did in the CFL. The game was much simpler back then, and more exciting IMO.