How much should we pay our top two QBs?

[paulwoods13]

Now that we pretty well know our starting QB options are limited to Nichols and MBT, and in view of what's being spent around the league on QBs, I'm wondering what everyone thinks we should try to pay our top two guys, and what we can realistically expect to pay them?

Nichols and MBT both have little leverage at this point, assuming they want to start. Only one team is in need of a starter, and there are two potential starters available so it's a buyer's market. Even if the brass really like Nichols and really don't like MBT (I obviously hope that is not the case), there should be no way Nichols can expect to get paid the kind of money he has made the past few years.

The low end of the salary scale for starters now seems to be around $400k (Masoli may be that low, plus incentives; Fajardo and Arbuckle are reportedly above $400k in base salary). Since each team needs a capable backup, IMO it is prudent to invest a decent amount on a proven No. 2.

So, would you offer Nichols $400k plus playing-time incentives, and offer MBT $200k plus (maybe larger) playing-time incentives? Or maybe Nichols $300/MBT $200? Could you get both guys to agree to those kind of offers? Does Nichols have to be offered more because he has a longer track record as a starter? Does his uncertain recovery prompt us to lowball him and be prepared to move ahead with MBT and someone else if Nichols doesn't accept a steep pay decrease? Would you offer close to even money for both, with a may-the-best-man-win approach, in an open competition?

Obviously the less we spend on QBs, the more we will have available to fill other holes. I've previously advocated spending no more than $720k total on all quarterbacks combined. Most teams will likely achieve that in 2020; Calgary and B.C. are the likely outliers.

In whatever scenario we end up with, I'm assuming O'Connor will be the No. 3 (up one spot from last year as his development continues) and remain on his original (presumably low-salary) contract.

[Tobin Rote]

Now that we pretty well know our starting QB options are limited to Nichols and MBT, and in view of what's being spent around the league on QBs, I'm wondering what everyone thinks we should try to pay our top two guys, and what we can realistically expect to pay them?

Nichols and MBT both have little leverage at this point, assuming they want to start. Only one team is in need of a starter, and there are two potential starters available so it's a buyer's market. Even if the brass really like Nichols and really don't like MBT (I obviously hope that is not the case), there should be no way Nichols can expect to get paid the kind of money he has made the past few years.

The low end of the salary scale for starters now seems to be around $400k (Masoli may be that low, plus incentives; Fajardo and Arbuckle are reportedly above $400k in base salary). Since each team needs a capable backup, IMO it is prudent to invest a decent amount on a proven No. 2.

So, would you offer Nichols $400k plus playing-time incentives, and offer MBT $200k plus (maybe larger) playing-time incentives? Or maybe Nichols $300/MBT $200? Could you get both guys to agree to those kind of offers? Does Nichols have to be offered more because he has a longer track record as a starter? Does his uncertain recovery prompt us to lowball him and be prepared to move ahead with MBT and someone else if Nichols doesn't accept a steep pay decrease? Would you offer close to even money for both, with a may-the-best-man-win approach, in an open competition?

Obviously the less we spend on QBs, the more we will have available to fill other holes. I've previously advocated spending no more than $720k total on all quarterbacks combined. Most teams will likely achieve that in 2020; Calgary and B.C. are the likely outliers.

In whatever scenario we end up with, I'm assuming O'Connor will be the No. 3 (up one spot from last year as his development continues) and remain on his original (presumably low-salary) contract.

Paul -- I really hope that you're right about being able to sign them both. There's no doubt that having two quarterbacks of starting quality would give the Argos a good shot at playoff contention this season, provided that solid decisions are made elsewhere on the roster as well. I wonder though... will the Argos ultimately have to choose one of these guys and guarantee more than $400K to him... leaving only enough, perhaps, to have developmental level guys behind him as back-ups. In a scenario like that, you're just hoping all season long that your starter doesn't get hurt.

[carlos]

Good post.

My thinking is they need to account for team expectations to a degree. If they think they can win this year then they should play the middle of the fairway and do what they think is the sure thing. If they think they are two years away then they can be more forward thinking with their options.

My opinion is the Argos are a long shot for 2020 and are best off building a nucleus that they will be happy with down the road.

I'll be surprised if there are multi year terms in any deal for Matt Nichols.

So why sweat it? Let it be year one of the Pinball and Dinwiddie era and let them play. 9 - 9 and competitive football is a step in the right direction.

My call would be to go MBT, with O'Conner and Prukop. I would want to know by the end of the year if O'Conner has what it takes to play in the league. He just might. Puzzle solved. Meantime let MBT do his thing and fortify the defence. Could be a surprise in the making right there.

As for salary, add Vern Adams to the $450,000 club. Seems to be the base. Too big of a gap between the other players though which will raise salaries and ticket prices over the long run. It all trickles down to the fan in the end.

If MBT is the starter then he should be paid as the starter. He can make second string money almost anywhere in the league.

[OV Argo]

Not sure why the Argos are limited to just MBT or Nichols as their starting QB for this season ? - a couple of OK at times but ultra limited QB skill sets? But, oh wait, they are "experienced". Same old / same old ? How bout real TC competition and have 5 or 6 QBs in ?

[carlos]

Not sure why the Argos are limited to just MBT or Nichols as their starting QB for this season ? - a couple of OK at times but ultra limited QB skill sets? But, oh wait, they are "experienced". Same old / same old ? How bout real TC competition and have 5 or 6 QBs in ?

Who are you looking at?

Okay with no expectations but they should at least try.

[paulwoods13]

My thinking is they need to account for team expectations to a degree. If they think they can win this year then they should play the middle of the fairway and do what they think is the sure thing. If they think they are two years away then they can be more forward thinking with their options.

My opinion is the Argos are a long shot for 2020 and are best off building a nucleus that they will be happy with down the road.

IMO Argos can't afford to treat this year (or any year, really) as a long-term building opportunity. They need to build up a fan base that has dwindled, a lot, and in effect conceding they won't contend is not gonna help. Plus, with more than half the players becoming free agents every season, it's just about impossible to keep the nucleus of a contending team even if you manage to create one.

As for salary, add Vern Adams to the $450,000 club. Seems to be the base. Too big of a gap between the other players though which will raise salaries and ticket prices over the long run. It all trickles down to the fan in the end.

If MBT is the starter then he should be paid as the starter. He can make second string money almost anywhere in the league.

I don't think the gap between QB salaries and the rest of the roster has any impact on ticket prices. There is a hard salary cap; regardless of how you allocate the money, that's all you can spend.

I agree MBT will likely have multiple offers if he gets to free agency, which is why I've been advocating for weeks that he be signed before free agency. We're now in the position I feared we'd be, with all of the big name FAs (or would-be FAs) having signed elsewhere, giving MBT pretty good leverage for a guy who wasn't a starter heading into last season. I originally wanted the Argos to name him the 2020 starter, and pay him at the low end of the salary scale for starters ($360k plus incentives that could get him to $450k). I very much doubt that's gonna happen now, unless Nichols prices himself out of the market and MBT becomes the only real alternative. But yes, I would be willing to either make him one of the highest-paid backups in the league or pay him something similar to Nichols, and let them duke it out for the No. 1 job.

[ArgoZ]

Not sure why the Argos are limited to just MBT or Nichols as their starting QB for this season ? - a couple of OK at times but ultra limited QB skill sets? But, oh wait, they are "experienced". Same old / same old ? How bout real TC competition and have 5 or 6 QBs in ?

Manziel? LOL. I’m not excited about both QB’s either. Not much out there, unless they go off the board and expecting any first year CFL QB to find success is foolish. I guess we stubble through this year and hope someone steps up or signs here next season.

[OV Argo]

Who are you looking at?

Okay with no expectations but they should at least try.

How bout MBT, Nichols, O'Connor, Pipkin & Prukop in a real TC competition - and they only keep the better of the 2 veteran, more expensive QBs (and cut the other) and roll with whoever is best (not necessarily most "experienced") as the starter - from serious, tough TC and ex. game time competition.

[argolio]

Not sure why the Argos are limited to just MBT or Nichols as their starting QB for this season ? - a couple of OK at times but ultra limited QB skill sets? But, oh wait, they are "experienced". Same old / same old ? How bout real TC competition and have 5 or 6 QBs in ?

There isn't enough time to give that many guys significant reps. It's not the old days of six week camps and four preseason games.

[paulwoods13]

There isn't enough time to give that many guys significant reps. It's not the old days of six week camps and four preseason games.

And going with only one experienced QB after cutdown would be a huge risk, in a market that can't afford another four-win season.

[argolio]

And going with only one experienced QB after cutdown would be a huge risk, in a market that can't afford another four-win season.

Experience is always preferred. We did go into 2010 with no experienced CFL QBs and squeezed out a 9-9 season, but even then the Argos settled on the starter early on. You can't waste time in camp.

And I think some here are underestimating the importance of the rest of the roster. Nichols played well in Winnipeg. Assuming he signs, he can do the same here if the Argos improve the overall roster.

[Argo57]

Experience is always preferred. We did go into 2010 with no experienced CFL QBs and squeezed out a 9-9 season, but even then the Argos settled on the starter early on. You can't waste time in camp.

And I think some here are underestimating the importance of the rest of the roster. Nichols played well in Winnipeg. Assuming he signs, he can do the same here if the Argos improve the overall roster.

Your last sentence is key, the Argonauts need to do a very good job in bolstering the rest of their roster.
Get the QB’s signed, trust that you’ve done a nice job of off season recruiting (which it appears they have) and supplement with some astute draft selections and free agent signings.
As Paul Woods has touched on this franchise needs to put a decent product on the field this season, can’t afford a repeat of the 2018 and 2019 seasons.

[OV Argo]

There isn't enough time to give that many guys significant reps. It's not the old days of six week camps and four preseason games.

We've discussed this subject before; I disagree

[paulwoods13]

OV, here are the rules under the CBA. How do you propose to get five or six QBs enough reps, and meeting time, to evaluate all of them, while also working every other player and position group? As I read this, teams have a maximum of 18 days in camp, including 10 days with two practices . That's a maximum of 28 practice sessions. All practices last a maximum of 2.5 hours. That sounds like a lot, but IMO it is not nearly enough to get five or six QBs an equal number of reps, and do everything else that has to be done in camp.

6.01.1 For the purpose of this Agreement “training camp period” shall be defined as that
period of time in every year commencing with the first day a veteran Player with a Member Club
is required by his Member Club to attend any organized practice, meeting or activity other than
those activities described in paragraph 6.01.2 herein, in any single season, and shall end on the
18th day from and including the date of commencement of the training camp period.

. . .

6.01.6 A Member Club shall be permitted to require a veteran Player to attend two
organized practices a day during the training camp period; provided however, a Member Club
shall not be permitted to have any veteran attend two organized practices a day for more than ten
days during the training camp period in any single season. The two organized practices a day
shall not take place after the 12th day (excluding the day before, the day of, and the day after a
pre-season game) from and including the date of commencement of the training camp period.
When there are two practices a day during the training camp period, only one practice may have
contact. A practice with contact must involve Players in helmets and shoulder pads, shells
and/or spiders. A practice without contact must not involve Players in equipment other than
helmets.

. . .

6.01.10 During the training camp period when a Member Club holds 2 organized practices
a day, the first practice shall commence no earlier than 8:30 A.M., each practice shall be no
longer than 2 and 1/2 hours and meetings shall be no longer than 3 hours per day in total.

[OV Argo]

OV, here are the rules under the CBA. How do you propose to get five or six QBs enough reps, and meeting time, to evaluate all of them, while also working every other player and position group? As I read this, teams have a maximum of 18 days in camp, including 10 days with two practices . That's a maximum of 28 practice sessions. All practices last a maximum of 2.5 hours. That sounds like a lot, but IMO it is not nearly enough to get five or six QBs an equal number of reps, and do everything else that has to be done in camp.

6.01.1 For the purpose of this Agreement “training camp period” shall be defined as that
period of time in every year commencing with the first day a veteran Player with a Member Club
is required by his Member Club to attend any organized practice, meeting or activity other than
those activities described in paragraph 6.01.2 herein, in any single season, and shall end on the
18th day from and including the date of commencement of the training camp period.

. . .

6.01.6 A Member Club shall be permitted to require a veteran Player to attend two
organized practices a day during the training camp period; provided however, a Member Club
shall not be permitted to have any veteran attend two organized practices a day for more than ten
days during the training camp period in any single season. The two organized practices a day
shall not take place after the 12th day (excluding the day before, the day of, and the day after a
pre-season game) from and including the date of commencement of the training camp period.
When there are two practices a day during the training camp period, only one practice may have
contact. A practice with contact must involve Players in helmets and shoulder pads, shells
and/or spiders. A practice without contact must not involve Players in equipment other than
helmets.

. . .

6.01.10 During the training camp period when a Member Club holds 2 organized practices
a day, the first practice shall commence no earlier than 8:30 A.M., each practice shall be no
longer than 2 and 1/2 hours and meetings shall be no longer than 3 hours per day in total.

Oh, i think a really good young QB would shine soon and without tons of reps; just like it shouldn't take that long to see if Nichols' injury is healed enough so that he can play at his former self. And a smart offensive coach should be able to divert some standard practice reps to focus on QB drills a bit more and early. Just IMO of course; maybe some don't agree that lots of competition - at such an important position and where you don't have a solid #1 going - is necessary; just roll with the most "experienced" of journeymen MBT or Nichols? = not good enough IMO.

[Nob]

There is an old coach’s saying: “if you have 2 quarterbacks then you have none”. Yes, having an experienced back up is good, but having a QB controversy all year isn’t. I guess that’s just one of the reasons why I don’t want to see a season of MBT with Nichols as the rostered QB’s.

It would have been nice to have a legit number one before free agency, but that’s the cards that they have right now. I’m sure that Pinball and co have some plan in mind for this scenario. In Pinball we trust. Let’s see what happens over time. Surely they must have a plan. We will find out in due time.

I can’t imagine that Prukop and Pipkin would want to come here to compete if MBT and Nichols are both already here. There are only so many reps to get. I’m sure they can go to another team to get more reps and a better shot to be a number 2.

[argolio]

OV, here are the rules under the CBA. How do you propose to get five or six QBs enough reps, and meeting time, to evaluate all of them, while also working every other player and position group? As I read this, teams have a maximum of 18 days in camp, including 10 days with two practices . That's a maximum of 28 practice sessions. All practices last a maximum of 2.5 hours. That sounds like a lot, but IMO it is not nearly enough to get five or six QBs an equal number of reps, and do everything else that has to be done in camp.

It was maybe possible 50 years ago when they had unlimited camp rosters, a longer camp, two-a-days every day, no limits on practices in pads, four preseason games, and practice length wasn't strictly enforced. They also devote a lot more time in camp to special teams than they used to, which further reduces available QB reps.

Then there's the issue of salaries and how teams attempt to slot players into their salary caps. Economics and logic dictate that the players you invest in the most will start camp with the most reps. You'd probably need a team with no returning QBs and every QB making the same money to have a totally open QB competition, though I can't imagine any CFL team purposely doing that.

[carlos]

All good points. Hope it works out whichever way it goes.

While I agree that the Argos need to field a competitive team in 2020 I don't think they need to go 12 - 6 to generate interest and attract fans. Playing good football and being competitive is a good first step. They can't lose games at home by 60 points.

The coaching carousel has not helped either but perhaps the right people are in place now.

It's possible that Michael O'Conner might be the future starter. I would like to see him in the #2 role and given a chance to display his talents. The idea of burying him behind a 3 year deal for a Nick Arbuckle type almost ensures that O'Conner would be moving on to get his chance. Would be like Collaros or Harris backing up Ricky Ray and not ever seeing the field.