Argos All-Time Team

[Will]

In response to a tweet by Mike Hogan, TSN producer Chris Edwards confirmed that the Argos all-time QB will be either Ricky Ray, Doug Flutie or Condredge Holloway. Not a shock to anyone I suppose.

[Argo57]

In response to a tweet by Mike Hogan, TSN producer Chris Edwards confirmed that the Argos all-time QB will be either Ricky Ray, Doug Flutie or Condredge Holloway. Not a shock to anyone I suppose.

Can’t go wrong either way.

[stuntdog]

Glad to see that, just because we have little footage or few living witnesses doesn't mean they should be excluded. They were as great in their era as the other players nominated in theirs were. Just the very fact that we still know their names despite the lack of visual evidence (only print) should account for their greatness.

Here's some of that print evidence from 1946 for Joe Krol, who won 5 Grey Cups during his 9 seasons with the Argos and who's one of the very select group of Argos with a retired jersey.
Argos Alouettes game preview full story with Joe Krol graphic Mtl Gazette19461012.jpg

[Will]

The team was just announced. My predictions had changed from earlier in the thread though I admit I didn't post them here.

QB: Doug Flutie Will's prediction: Ricky Ray
RB: "Pinball" Clemons/Dick Shatto I got this one right
WR: Terry Greer, Derrell Mitchell, Darrell K. Smith and Paul Masotti I also got this one right
OL: Dan Ferrone, Chris Schultz, Norm Stoneburgh, Danny Nykoluk & Pierre Vercheval I got 4/5 right as I didn't select Vercheval
ST: Lance Chomyc, Hank Ilesic & Chad Owens I went 1/3 here
DL: Rodney Harding, Jim Stillwagon, Ed Harrington & Jim Corrigall I had Harold Hallman instead of Stillwagon
LB: Don Moen, Kevin Eiben & Mike O'Shea bang on
DB: Orlondo Steinauer, Adrion Smith, Marv Luster, Byron Parker & Reggie Pleasant I had Carl Brazley instead of Pee Wee
Foundational: Joe Krol, Royal Copeland, Condredge Holloway, Ulysses Curtis, Jim Rountree & Bill Symons
Head Coach: Bob O'Billovich

I had Chris Van Zeyl instead of Pierre Vercheval. I don't really associate Pierre with the Argos, but he is a hall-of-fame linemen who if you look back did spend nearly as much time with Argos as he did with the Als and Eskimos. It turns out that the TSN waived the current player rule for the Argos with the "cheat code" that Kevin Eiben is on the current coaching staff. I had Hank Ilesic instead of Prefontaine as Hank is a HOFer. Additionally, I did not have a returner on my team as I thought they would have to use a spot for Jake Reinhart.

Notables left off: Dave Mann, Chris Van Zeyl, Ricky Ray, Harold Hallman, Carl Brazley

[jerrym]

I would have liked to have seen the long history of the Argos recognized by including Lionel Conacher, chosen Canada's athlete of the half century in 1950, and Annis Stukis in the foundational players.

Rugby football was the first sport Conacher played, and it was his favourite.^[15] He first played organized football at the age of 12 as a middle wing with the Capitals in the Toronto Rugby Football League.^[16] He played four seasons with the team between 1912 and 1915, during which the Capitals won the city championship each year. He won the Ontario championship as a junior with the Toronto Central YMCA in 1918, and in 1919 moved up to the intermediate level.^[17] With the intermediate Capitals, he was moved into an offensive role as a halfback. He excelled in the role, and his team reached Ontario Rugby Football Union (ORFU) final. In that final, the Capitals' opponents from Sarnia made stopping Conacher their priority, a strategy that proved the difference as Sarnia won the championship.^[18]

Conacher moved to the senior level in 1920 with the Toronto Rugby Club where his team again won the ORFU championship, but lost the eastern semifinal to the Toronto Argonauts of the Interprovincial Rugby Football Union (IRFU). His play impressed the Argonauts, who signed him for the 1921 season.^[16] In his first game with the Argonauts, he scored 23 of the team's 27 points, and led the IRFU in scoring, accounting for 14 touchdowns and 90 of his team's 167 points as they went undefeated in six games.^[16] The Argonauts won the eastern championship, and faced the Edmonton Eskimos (renamed Edmonton 'Elks' in 1922) in the first east-west Grey Cup championship in Canadian history. Conacher rushed for 211 yards and scored 15 points in Toronto's 23–0 victory to claim the national title.^[19]

Named captain in 1922, Conacher led the Argonauts to another undefeated season in IRFU play, finishing with five wins and one tie, as he rushed for about 950 yards. The Argonauts reached the Eastern final, but lost to Queen's University, 12–11. In that game, Conacher was the entire Argonaut offense rushing 35 times for 227 yards but Pep Leadley's 21 yard field goal towards the end of the game gave Queens' its victory. ...

In the summers, Conacher returned to Toronto and played lacrosse and Triple A baseball.^[28] The Yellow Jackets turned professional in 1925 when they were renamed the Pittsburgh Pirates and joined the National Hockey League (NHL).^[22] Conacher finally chose to turn professional with the team, a decision that surprised fans and teammates in Toronto, who knew of his favourtism for the game of football. ...

Conacher returned to football in 1933. ...The first game was held Thanksgiving Day in 1933, an exhibition contest against the Rochester Arpeakos. A crowd of 10,000 attended the game to watch Conacher play his first competitive football game in Canada in ten years. He did not disappoint, scoring two touchdowns and setting up a third for the Chefs, and was hailed as the game's star despite an 18–15 loss.^[39] Toronto lost a return match in Rochester, but in the third and final game of their season, the Chefs defeated a team from Buffalo at Toronto by a score of 18–0.^[40] Conacher was again the star, rushing for two touchdowns and scoring 13 of his team's points.^[41] He organized the team for a second year in 1934, known as the Wrigley Aromints due to new sponsorship, and again played an exhibition schedule as the team remained unaffiliated with any league.^[42] The team again played three games, winning all three.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Conacher

After playing junior football with the Toronto Argos junior club, Annis Stukus moved up to th ebig club in 1935 and played for the Argos for seven seasons from 1935 to 1941. Stukus played established himself as one of the best quarterbacks in the IRFU / Big Four, and led the league in scoring in 1938. Stukus was also named the All-Star Quarterback in the East in 1938. With th eoutbreak of Word War II, the Argos and the Big Four ceased play for three seasons from 1942 to 1944, but Stukus kept on playing.

The ORFU (Ontario Rugby Football League) continued play during the war and Stukus played for the Toronto Indians in 1942 and Toronto Balmy Beach in 1943 where he was the All-Star QB of the ORFU. In 1944, Stukus was in the Navy and played for the Toronto Navy Bulldogs team which played in an armed services league in Ontario. Following the war, Stukus played two more seasons for the Toronto Indians in 1945 and 1946 in the ORFU. Stukus retired after 1946

In 1949, Stukus joined the Edmonton Eskimos as their Head Coach and GM as the franchise revived itself after last playing in 1949. Stukus coach the Eskimos for three seasons (1949-51), and came out of retirement to play in 1950 and 1951 to do the place kicking for the Eskimos. In 1954, Stukus became the first head coach and GM for the new Vancouver (now BC) Lions franichise, a position he held for two seasons. It was mainly for his role in reviving and building the Edmonton and BC franchises that Annis Stukus was selected to the Canadian Football Hall of Fame in 1974. The CFL coach of the year trophy is named after Stukus.

https://www.cflapedia.com/Players/s/stukus_annis.htm

[AngeloV]

The team was just announced. My predictions had changed from earlier in the thread though I admit I didn't post them here.

QB: Doug Flutie Will's prediction: Ricky Ray
RB: "Pinball" Clemons/Dick Shatto I got this one right
WR: Terry Greer, Derrell Mitchell, Darrell K. Smith and Paul Masotti I also got this one right
OL: Dan Ferrone, Chris Schultz, Norm Stoneburgh, Danny Nykoluk & Pierre Vercheval I got 4/5 right as I didn't select Vercheval
ST: Lance Chomyc, Hank Ilesic & Chad Owens I went 1/3 here
DL: Rodney Harding, Jim Stillwagon, Ed Harrington & Jim Corrigall I had Harold Hallman instead of Stillwagon
LB: Don Moen, Kevin Eiben & Mike O'Shea bang on
DB: Orlondo Steinauer, Adrion Smith, Marv Luster, Byron Parker & Reggie Pleasant I had Carl Brazley instead of Pee Wee
Foundational: Joe Krol, Royal Copeland, Condredge Holloway, Ulysses Curtis, Jim Rountree & Bill Symons
Head Coach: Bob O'Billovich

I had Chris Van Zeyl instead of Pierre Vercheval. I don't really associate Pierre with the Argos, but he is a hall-of-fame linemen who if you look back did spend nearly as much time with Argos as he did with the Als and Eskimos. It turns out that the TSN waived the current player rule for the Argos with the "cheat code" that Kevin Eiben is on the current coaching staff. I had Hank Ilesic instead of Prefontaine as Hank is a HOFer. Additionally, I did not have a returner on my team as I thought they would have to use a spot for Jake Reinhart.

Notables left off: Dave Mann, Chris Van Zeyl, Ricky Ray, Harold Hallman, Carl Brazley

I just watched it o the TSN app. They had Prefontaine not Ilesic. Bad choice IMO.

[Argo57]

Carl Brazley and Chris Van Zeyl would have been on my list.
Still cringe at the thought of the Argos releasing Van Zeyl before last season.

[Shatto]

Even though some very good players did not make the list, it is hard to argue with the players who were chosen. The one player, who in my opinion should have been on the list is Van Zeyl.

[AngeloV]

Carl Brazley and Chris Van Zeyl would have been on my list.
Still cringe at the thought of the Argos releasing Van Zeyl before last season.

No disrespect to Pee Wee Smith, but IMO he wasn’t nearly as good a DB as Brazly.

[Wobbler]

Flutie was probably the most talented Argo QB ever, but I'm not a fan of that choice. He's (appropriately) better known as a Stamp, and only played two seasons as an Argo. Sure, none of the logical candidates played more than half of their careers in Toronto, but two years? That's like a guest appearance.

[AngeloV]

Flutie was probably the most talented Argo QB ever, but I'm not a fan of that choice. He's (appropriately) better known as a Stamp, and only played two seasons as an Argo. Sure, none of the logical candidates played more than half of their careers in Toronto, but two years? That's like a guest appearance.

And yet in his 2 years he won as many championships as any other Argos QB. I’m totally fine with the choice.

[jerrym]

And yet in his 2 years he won as many championships as any other Argos QB. I’m totally fine with the choice.

Joe Krol won five Grey Cups with the Argos and six overall.

[AngeloV]

Joe Krol won five Grey Cups with the Argos and six overall.

I know he played some QB along with RB, DB and kicker, but how many cups did he win as an actual QB?

[ArgoGabe22]

I think the Argos team might be the most logical team assembled. I think Winnipeg had a few head scratchers and TSN made better teams as the weeks have gone. I don’t know if I agree with 100% of the roster BUT I can’t really complain.

[Argo57]

I think the Argos team might be the most logical team assembled. I think Winnipeg had a few head scratchers and TSN made better teams as the weeks have gone. I don’t know if I agree with 100% of the roster BUT I can’t really complain.

I agree, although I might have picked a couple of different players it was nice to see players spanning several generations included.

[jerrym]

Joe Krol won five Grey Cups with the Argos and six overall.

I know he played some QB along with RB, DB and kicker, but how many cups did he win as an actual QB?

It is very hard to find statistics from that era but Joe Krol is listed as a QB on the Argos roster in the 1945, 1947, 1950 and 1952 Grey Cup winning years (see the Argo rosters below) for a total of five Grey Cup victories while listed as a Argo QB on the team roster, although he is listed as a RB in the 1946 year when he threw three TD passes in the Grey Cup game, something only matched by Doug Flutie. Furthermore, "His passing and kicking accounted for all the Argos' points in their 1947 cup win over Winnipeg." (https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/joseph-krol) On the other hand he is listed as a RB on the 1945, 1946, and 1947 all-star teams (see 1945-1947 Wikipedia CFL seasons below). Unfortunately, "official statistics were not kept for the Eastern teams until 1954" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Krol)

The confusion about his position likely comes from the fact that " Listed as a halfback, Krol played in an era where they made extensive use of the halfback option, so it was not unusual to see Krol throwing the ball downfield to Copeland."

— He threw four touchdown passes in the first game of the 1945 East final at Ottawa, tied for the highest single-game playoff output in Argo history.

— He is tied for first place in Argo club history, with Doug Flutie, for most passing touchdowns in a Grey Cup game with three in the 1946 game versus Winnipeg.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/argos-krol/

https://www.statscrew.com/football/r...-CFLTOR/y-1945
https://www.statscrew.com/football/r...-CFLTOR/y-1946
https://www.statscrew.com/football/r...-CFLTOR/y-1947
https://www.statscrew.com/football/r...-CFLTOR/y-1950
https://www.statscrew.com/football/r...-CFLTOR/y-1952
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945_in_Canadian_football
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1946_in_Canadian_football
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_in_Canadian_football

[Stevoman]

No disrespect to Pee Wee Smith, but IMO he wasn’t nearly as good a DB as Brazly.

I mostly only caught the ending of Brazly's career but I think Adrion Smith is a well deserved addition. He's close to leading in team interceptions with 44 and played a lengthy and successful career contributing to 3 Grey Cups.

[ArgofanIan]

Kind of from a different perspective... Leo is coach for me ... my team would have Zac henderson.... John candy as owner.... would have to have Conridge Hollaway some how as well as Rickey Ray... might need 3 quarterbacks (LOL)... like to see Dan Feronne on the team..... good representation from the 60's Argos...Granny liggins .... there have been some great presidents under difficult situations ... like Bob

Nicholson

and Chris Rudge but ...Michael Copeland and his team treated me the best ... really enjoyed the tailgate and ship yard back then... but I am not complaining ... just lookin forward to our next home game.

[jerrym]

I am glad to see RB Ulysses Curtis listed as a foundational player as he was the first of the many great Black Argo players and is still listed as the "sixth on the Argonauts all-time career touchdown list with 47 touchdowns, fourth on the Argos all-time rushing list with 3,712 yards" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_Curtis) despite playing in much shorter 1950s seasons.

I would also like to have seen Dave Mann make the team as a foundational player for his all-round excellence as a receiver, RB, kicker, DB and returner (https://www.cflapedia.com/Players/m/mann_dave.htm).

I would have preferred Carl Brazley to Byron Parker, despite his seasonal record for interception return yardage and career record for interception TDs, because Brazley was much better in coverage.

[ArgoGabe22]

I would have preferred Carl Brazley to Byron Parker, despite his seasonal record for interception return yardage and career record for interception TDs, because Brazley was much better in coverage.

I challenge you to go 1 on 1 with Byron Parker, if you think his coverage skills aren't that good