CFL/XFL Collaboration

[dmont]

I think the CFL/XFL collaboration is exciting. Yes, there are lots of ways it can go wrong for the CFL, but there are also a few ways it could go right. After reading all the analysis and listening to all the podcasts, there seems to be a lot of confusion about how these teams could mutually benefit from cooperating. Here are my thoughts:
What the XFL needs from the CFL:

1. The infrastructure and institutional knowledge necessary to manage a football league. While the CFL hasn’t proven it can make a boatload of profits, they have successfully run football seasons for nine football teams since the 1950s. Without this, the XFL would be starting from scratch and would have to build their own, which is costly and prone to errors and growing pains. Why not take the money that they would have spent getting their management and logistical operations together and instead pay the CFL a fraction of the cost to do it for them? Collaboration here would take advantage of economies of scale.

1. Nine established teams that will be able to reliably field players week in and week out against the newly formed XFL sides. This means the XFL wouldn’t have to start off with 8 or 10 franchises (of which only 4 or 5 are strong). It could instead launch with the most promising 4 to 6 markets and then rely on inter-league play with the CFL teams to fill out their schedule. It allows them to grow slowly without placing undue pressure to launch in weak markets.

1. TV production relationship with TSN. The CFL already has an established relationship with a respected TV broadcaster in TSN that can produce football games with a first-class feel and appearance. We’ve seen spring football leagues be able to get on TV, but they were most likely paying for the production and not benefiting financially. While I’m sure inter-league games wouldn’t draw quite as well as CFL-only games, I expect that the additional content would be valuable to TSN and they would be willing to pay something for it. Those games could then be re-broadcast in the US for the XFL, who wouldn’t have to pay to produce the games and might even get a share of TSN money. That leaves the XFL having to only pay to produce the XFL-only games, which TSN could probably do best given that they already have the infrastructure and institutional knowledge. In sum, the XFL could save a lot on getting their games produced by piggy-backing on the CFL’s relationship with TSN.

What the CFL needs from the XFL:

1. Cooperation, not competition. I think the CFL looked at XFL 2.0 and saw an operation that almost worked, and might have even succeeded if not for COVID. While the CFL has survived upstart US leagues in the past, but all it takes is one to gather momentum and become a competitor that could put the CFL out of business, given the current shaky financial situation. Rather than continue to rely on luck, I think the CFL has decided it’s better to cooperate and have some influence on how spring/summer US football moves forward.

1. A marketing game-changer. Yes, there are lots of people in Canada who are not CFL fans, but the league has been trying to reach them for 15 years and has not been successful. This is not for lack of trying, and it could be that the current form of the league (only 9 teams, playing the same teams over and over) has exhausted its options for growth in Canada. It needs to make a splash in order to capture peoples’ attention. Look at how much media attention the CFL has gotten from just EXPLORING collaboration with the XFL. The opportunity for inter-league play, and having CFL teams analyzed by US sports outlets alongside the XFL teams, is shaking things up for a change and it could jumpstart interest in Canadian non-CFL fans. Also…

1. Increased US media exposure. While it continues to struggle to attract new fans in Canada, inter-league play with XFL provides exposure in the US that the CFL has never had. Showing games on ESPN has never worked because Americans didn’t care to see two Canadian teams competing. However, with CFL teams playing XFL teams, American outlets would have no choice but to pay attention and provide analysis for CFL teams and players. If the CFL’s collaboration allows the XFL to remain sustainable long enough to land a substantial TV contract, and the CFL becomes a stakeholder under this collaboration, then this could be the best opportunity to stabilize the CFL’s finances.

[dmont]

The best-case outcome for the CFL: Two independent leagues, with 1) inter-league regular season play, and 2) cooperation at the head-office level (media, salary cap, bylaws, etc). The highlights:

1. Rather than a Canadian ratio, the XFL teams could develop their own ratio involving players from local markets. For example, supposing the XFL only had teams in San Antonio and St. Louis, the league could define the cities and a set of counties around the cities that produce roughly the same number of professional players per-team than Canada produces.

1. Generally, the two leagues play a game that is mostly Canadian rules with some modifications to accommodate XFL stadiums. The biggest change would likely be shrinking the field in every stadium down to something like BMO field’s dimensions. It might also be tough to get the Americans to agree to put the goal posts at the front of the endzone, but compromising on this would remove the exciting missed FG return opportunities in the CFL.

1. Games on Canadian soil are played with 3 downs while games on American soil are played with 4 downs.

1. Each league has their own championship. No more inter-league play once playoffs begin.

1. For contributing logistical and administrative support, as well as contributing teams and TV relationships with TSN, the CFL becomes a voting shareholder in whatever corporation owns the XFL and has some kind of veto power over any big changes to the two leagues.

Why this would be good for the CFL:

1. By cooperating with the XFL rather than competing, the CFL can ensure parity between the leagues as a destination for players. If the XFL’s salary cap is equivalent to the CFL’s (accounting for exchange rates, taxes, and cost of living, etc) then there’s no worry that CFL teams will struggle to sign the best available non-NFL talent. This also goes for league bylaws (eg. opportunities for getting out of CFL/XFL contracts to sign with the NFL).

1. No post-season matches between CFL and XFL teams. The teams compete during the regular season, and wins/losses count in the standings of the respective leagues, but the Grey Cup remains the CFL championship. Also, it eliminates the need for the two leagues’ seasons to 100% align. All inter-league games could take place during the part of the year where the two seasons over lap (say… June and July). Then the XFL teams could have their playoffs while the CFL regular season continued.

1. No need to compromise on 3 vs. 4 downs. Since the two leagues are independent, simply have all games on Canadian soil be 3 down and all games on American soil be 4 down. I’m no football genius, but I don’t expect this to be too onerous for coaches and their coordinators. The CFL teams playing down south would simply get an extra down while XFL teams playing up north would start at second and long, for which they would already have plays in the playbook.

1. Having a local-player ratio in the XFL eliminates concerns about competitiveness between the two leagues. I’m no lawyer, but I believe this might overcome the legal arguments against mandating Canadian players since anti-discrimination laws (at least as far as I can tell) only forbid discrimination in employment on the basis of COUNTRY of origin. Other discrimination is allowed wherever the nature of the occupation requires the restriction. Well, a professional sports league requires that games be conducted without unfair advantage to one team. The local player ratio is the least-restrictive way to ensure that games between CFL and XFL teams are fair.

1. Having American sports programs talking about CFL teams might just be the jolt that some Canadian non-CFL football fans need in order to start paying attention to the league. Look at how psyched we got when American sports programs were talking about the Raptors and Toronto. Look how jazzed we get when Canadian athletes in the NCAA are recognized for their Canadian origins. Maybe it’s the inferiority complex that seems to exist in Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal, but seeing American sports personalities seriously talking about CFL teams may work where all the other CFL marketing efforts failed.

1. Getting some share of whatever TV deal materializes for the XFL would provide additional streams of revenue for CFL owners that are badly needed.

1. Finally, despite all appearances… this would be fairly low-risk for the CFL. This is nothing like the CFL’s American expansion in the 1990s where the CFL expended its own resources trying to get these American franchises off the ground. If it worked out as described above, the XFL would be compensating the CFL head office for whatever resources were expended in scheduling and managing the logistics of XFL games. If the XFL goes belly-up again, it doesn’t take the CFL much to disengage. Really, they just go from having a set of inter-league games back to having only league games.

[paulwoods13]

Why watch a watered down version of the NFL, when we can see the "real" thing on TV.

Exact same question could be asked about MLS, and yet it seems to be growing steadily as a gate attraction.

Maybe, we should be demanding the production level of the TSN's game presentations be greatly improved

We absolutely should demand that, but the field size makes it more difficult. The NFL field size (plus 11 men a side) allows for tighter shots. I think NFL stadiums also have better lighting than some CFL stadiums, altho the CFL has improved a lot from the old days when there were giant shadows in some end zones.

[Antwon]

[/QUOTE]Agree with you, they need to find other sources of revenue. So why did the CFL not accept the invitation to be there with the House of Commons committee around Bill C-218? Everyone has been talking about how much of a positive financial impact it would be to have sports betting in Canada.

Also, he calls out that the league still hasn't looked at a revenue sharing model.

CFL 2.0 is supposed to bring in TV revenue, and understanding the pandemic impacted that, this is still something that can generate revenue. There was a lot of progress with this initiative, but like has been the case with Ambrosie, start something, don't finish it, and move on to the next shiny penny.

Also, social media followers does not guarantee people will be in the stands. Sure it's a nice to have.[/QUOTE]

“The government has had a justice committee reviewing a bill that would allow sports betting and the CFL elected not to accept the invitation to be there in committee. Now I’m told that they are filing off their views on it, I thought that was a missed opportunity,” Cuthbert said.

I don't get this. Single game betting is a lifeline for the CFL. I don't know politics but should they not have a voice everywhere they can?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this just seems like another example of how poorly the league is managed.

[Antwon]

Further to to the single game betting. That would bring added revenue to the CFL in Canada.
Perhaps the discussion with the XFL are more about how to get CFL games in the legalized betting in the US. Maybe some sort of minimum partnership that allows the CFL to keep most of it's rules, but gets them in and a piece of the betting pie.
Betting on football in the US is king and there's a huge void from March to September.

[doubleblue]

Just wondering about all the players being signed this off season, especially many ex-XFL players. It looks to me that the Rock and associates just might be funding the CFL this year as part of a deal for going forward. To keep some of these excess players cut this year would there be something to the idea of keeping a "practice team" around for replacements but also to keep these players in playing condition for next year. The XFL did this last year, with about 40 players with their own Coaches etc. but would be in shape and ready to step in for one of the 8 league teams. Their Head Coach was Bert Andrus, a CFL "veteran Coach". I'm sure Argo fans will remember. Lol

[Skinny G]

Exact same question could be asked about MLS, and yet it seems to be growing steadily as a gate attraction.

It is slowly growing, yes, but let's also understand that to watch ANY other professional soccer outside of MLS, you have to fly down to South America or across to Europe on a 7-8 hour flight. They are the only soccer league in North America that is at a certain professional level. Football? you can drive an hour to the US to watch another professional league. So is MLS slowly growing because it's the only option? Might be?


Also, isn't the fact that the CFL has a focus on gate attraction as the lead revenue generation the issue? We know that in Canada, MLS definitely needs that gate revenue because they are way lower in TV viewership. The CFL is way higher in TV viewership, but has the rough places like Toronto for attendance.


Steve Simmons says it perfectly here in this article from a few years back that says "Argos want what TFC has and vice versa"
https://torontosun.com/sports/footba...and-vice-versa



Can we look at MLS in terms of business modeling? YUP! It's already been talked about before, and the question is why hasn't the CFL looked at a model similar to MLS that shares costs and has revenue sharing? Question is, why aren't we looking at what we can do prior to potentially selling out our game, from a business model, marketing, and development standpoint.

[Argo57]

More food for thought from Chris Cuthbert.

https://3downnation.com/2021/03/12/l...ith-the-devil/

[paulwoods13]

It is slowly growing, yes, but let's also understand that to watch ANY other professional soccer outside of MLS, you have to fly down to South America or across to Europe on a 7-8 hour flight. They are the only soccer league in North America that is at a certain professional level. Football? you can drive an hour to the US to watch another professional league. So is MLS slowly growing because it's the only option? Might be?

Yes, it might. But it's not as if all the fans the CFL might have had are going to NFL games in person. TV coverage of Premier League (and other top soccer leagues) is not far off what's available in North America for NFL. I bet there are lots of people in Toronto who follow an EPL team closely, and TFC is their "local" team. I believe there is a group within the CFL that sees that same idea being possible for football in Toronto.

Also, isn't the fact that the CFL has a focus on gate attraction as the lead revenue generation the issue? We know that in Canada, MLS definitely needs that gate revenue because they are way lower in TV viewership. The CFL is way higher in TV viewership, but has the rough places like Toronto for attendance.

All true, but how can the CFL increase its TV (and digital) revenue if it stays as it is now? There's no evidence of international clamour for TV rights fees for CFL, but might there be increased revenue from a partner arrangement with XFL? That's likely being explored closely at the moment.

Question is, why aren't we looking at what we can do prior to potentially selling out our game, from a business model, marketing, and development standpoint.

That implies that the league and its teams have not already been doing exactly that. I find that impossible to believe. What is the path to change the business model and make the league profitable and sustainable? That's exactly what they have to figure out, but I've yet to hear any idea that seems sure to work, and certainly nothing that would disqualify exploration of partnership with the XFL.

[Bleeds Double Blue]

Their Head Coach was Bert Andrus, a CFL "veteran Coach". I'm sure Argo fans will remember. Lol

Thank you Doubleblue. Years of therapy to get over the Bart Andrus experience and you go and bring him up again. Now I'm back to typing curled up in the fetal position again.

[OV Argo]

Conspiracy theory:

MLSE and especially Larrry NFL wannabe Tannebaum are still really craving a "Major League" NFL franchise and to rid themselves of the dinky little not "world class" CFL (that is losing so much money per year, in about 15 years it could pay for one of the Jay's player salary).

SO - they pretend the CFL needs a saviour/ quick fix and The Rock & co. have already reached out to explore sharing or merger or whatever. Now The Rock is not part of this conspiracy, he's just a "dupe" or "patsy" (as Lee Harvey Oswald called himself before he got shot) - actually likes the CFL and thinks a partnership would work (as long as the CFL gets rid of those quaint little Canadian rules and unfair ratio); but MLSE and Larry see this partnership failing (as all minor pro US leagues always do), but in the meantime, the XFL dupes pony up some ca$h for the CFL to help with some debt there; and MLarrySE know full well that this venture could anger the NFL - who don't like competition for dollars or players - but who previously held off on NFL expansion to Toronto for some respect for the CFL and for it to provide some sort of "buffer" or anti-trust lawsuit protection. Now the gloves are off though, and the XCFL crashes in no time, and even if it doesn't, the NFL is fast making plans for an expansion team in the huge Toronto market - with Larry at the helm.

A soon to be Hollywood production: movie script - to be written by B. McNall, and movie directed by Oliver Stone.

Toronto Argonauts - wrecked in a sea of red ink and sink never to be seen again; but hey, that's what happens when your ship's (business) model is unsound; and change and progress are a good thing.

;o)

[SkalbaniasGhost]

Conspiracy theory:

MLSE and especially Larrry NFL wannabe Tannebaum are still really craving a "Major League" NFL franchise and to rid themselves of the dinky little not "world class" CFL (that is losing so much money per year, in about 15 years it could pay for one of the Jay's player salary).

Toronto Argonauts - wrecked in a sea of red ink and sink never to be seen again; but hey, that's what happens when your ship's (business) model is unsound; and change and progress are a good thing.

;o)

NFL expansion is a strong possibility by 2025.The 2020 losses combined with the pending St.Louis lawsuit could result in the owners pursuing that option.
The NFL OTA media rights are going to be announced sometime in the spring.How much will Bell pay to maintain that relationship? Does Rogers win them?

[OV Argo]

NFL expansion is a strong possibility by 2025.The 2020 losses combined with the pending St.Louis lawsuit could result in the owners pursuing that option.
The NFL OTA media rights are going to be announced sometime in the spring.How much will Bell pay to maintain that relationship? Does Rogers win them?

Wonder if MLarrySE could retain the name Argonauts for a new NFL team ? That would be fantastic !

[Shatto]

The CFL/XFL issue has resulted in a plethora of articles and comments. It was interesting to listen to a XFL roundtable discussion about the collaboration. The general feeling in that discussion, was the CFL is in dire straits and need to be rescued by the XFL owners. There was even the suggestion that maybe the XFL will simply buy the CFL. After all if it is American it has to be bigger and better--right?

One of the more interesting articles was the Ten Dos and Don'ts by Ryan Ballentine. His first Do is player movement between leagues allowing players to play in both CFL and XFL---if their bodies can stand it with out breaking down with injuries. It is an intriguing proposal and the players might well be in favour of such a move.

However, the fundamental question, of what is the primary objective for the CFL, is still unanswered. If, as most are assuming, it is to increase the revenue stream, it raises the question of how that can be accomplished. Some startup Spring leagues in the past actually had to pay to have the games televised. The XFL so far has given their games away just to get their games on tv. Not sure how the CFL imagines there might be some revenue from American tv, under those conditions.

Until we have some transparency from the CFL and a clear statement of the primary purpose behind the discussions (from the CFL perspective), there seems very little to be gained from continued speculations. Personally, I'd like to see more league emphasis on getting the 2021 season off the ground and perhaps more work on attaining a 10th team for Atlantic Canada.

[OV Argo]

The CFL/XFL issue has resulted in a plethora of articles and comments. It was interesting to listen to a XFL roundtable discussion about the collaboration. The general feeling in that discussion, was the CFL is in dire straits and need to be rescued by the XFL owners. There was even the suggestion that maybe the XFL will simply buy the CFL. After all if it is American it has to be bigger and better--right?

One of the more interesting articles was the Ten Dos and Don'ts by Ryan Ballentine. His first Do is player movement between leagues allowing players to play in both CFL and XFL---if their bodies can stand it with out breaking down with injuries. It is an intriguing proposal and the players might well be in favour of such a move.

However, the fundamental question, of what is the primary objective for the CFL, is still unanswered. If, as most are assuming, it is to increase the revenue stream, it raises the question of how that can be accomplished. Some startup Spring leagues in the past actually had to pay to have the games televised. The XFL so far has given their games away just to get their games on tv. Not sure how the CFL imagines there might be some revenue from American tv, under those conditions.

Until we have some transparency from the CFL and a clear statement of the primary purpose behind the discussions (from the CFL perspective), there seems very little to be gained from continued speculations. Personally, I'd like to see more league emphasis on getting the 2021 season off the ground and perhaps more work on attaining a 10th team for Atlantic Canada.

Well, at least this XCFL thing has prompted a lot of discussion and publicity for the CFL - which is a good thing I guess and maybe part of the big plan.

I've been a bit surprised or stunned (ok - not really) at all the discussion trying to rationalise or make excuses for this proposed venture - in the media and amongst CFL "fans" - lots of ideas as to how it could work - 4 downs better with more scoring, all sorts or rule changes to suck-up to American football; and the usual "ratio problem" suspects salivating over the amazing upgrade in talent a new XCFL could feature if those Canadian scrubs on CFL rosters now could be turfed.

Should be some sort of poll to see how many current CFL fans will remain big fans/followers of the new & improved XCFL American football league IF it comes to pass.

[cfl-cis fan]

Well, at least this XCFL thing has prompted a lot of discussion and publicity for the CFL - which is a good thing I guess and maybe part of the big plan.

I've been a bit surprised or stunned (ok - not really) at all the discussion trying to rationalise or make excuses for this proposed venture - in the media and amongst CFL "fans" - lots of ideas as to how it could work - 4 downs better with more scoring, all sorts or rule changes to suck-up to American football; and the usual "ratio problem" suspects salivating over the amazing upgrade in talent a new XCFL could feature if those Canadian scrubs on CFL rosters now could be turfed.

Should be some sort of poll to see how many current CFL fans will remain big fans/followers of the new & improved XCFL American football league IF it comes to pass.

I don't think I will want to watch if there are no Canadians on the roster ..............

[paulwoods13]

Personally, I'd like to see more league emphasis on getting the 2021 season off the ground and perhaps more work on attaining a 10th team for Atlantic Canada.

We'd all love an Atlantic franchise, but as has been the case for the past 40 years, there is no stadium and no evident source of funding to build one. It remains as much of a pipe dream as it was in 1982 when the "Schooners" first hosted a hospitality suite during Grey Cup week.

[Shatto]

Couldn't agree with you more, PW, it will be a herculean task to get an Atlantic franchise but the very fact it has been a wish for at least 40 years, proves it is important. Maybe it wont be easily attainable but that shouldn't prevent it from being a high priority for the league. Perhaps it is a case of "a man's reach should exceed his grasp" If we can put a man on the moon and create a Covid19 vaccine in less than a year, then maybe nothing is impossible. Then again, maybe I'm being an eternal optimist.

[paulwoods13]

Nothing is impossible if there is money to support the endeavour. That's how humanity landed on the moon and developed vaccines in record time. Unfortunately, there is no apparent source of the funding required to get a team into Halifax or Moncton. Maybe an XFL arrangement will change that, but I wouldn't think anyone in either league sees putting a team out east as one of the top priorities. It's too bad because it would be great to have an even number of teams, and a team in a fabulous part of Canada to visit. But the economics just don't work, IMO.

[Mightygoose]

Hard to say what an XFL partnership would do to Halifax. If Redbird owns 100% of the league then I don't see Halifax as something they would push if the political will isn't there.

If it's case where it's centrally owned but investors own a stake to operate in their market similar to MLS, then SSE could buy in and a new business model could convince some naysayers in the province and city to continue once the pandemic is over.