CFL/XFL Collaboration

[ArgoGabe22]

"100 years ago you weren't allowed to pass the ball forward. Our rules do keep changing. As long as they change for the better our fans will follow us. If they change for the worse, they won't follow us." #CFL #XFL #Ticats via @FAN590

If it ain't broken, don't fix it. Minor tweaks are fine like OT, converts etc. but is the wider field, 12 players, 3 downs really an issue that needs tweaking?

[paulwoods13]

If it ain't broken, don't fix it. Minor tweaks are fine like OT, converts etc. but is the wider field, 12 players, 3 downs really an issue that needs tweaking?

The game could be perfect, but if the audience keeps dwindling it eventually won't matter -- there will be no game to celebrate.

And as I've argued here and elsewhere, there are things in the CFL rulebook that have made the game less entertaining than it used to be. Twelve men, three downs and field size aren't on that list, but neither should they be sacred cows. "If it ain't broken" doesn't apply IMO -- the biz model that underpins the game itself is in fact broken.

[AngeloV]

The game could be perfect, but if the audience keeps dwindling it eventually won't matter -- there will be no game to celebrate.

And as I've argued here and elsewhere, there are things in the CFL rulebook that have made the game less entertaining than it used to be. Twelve men, three downs and field size aren't on that list, but neither should they be sacred cows. "If it ain't broken" doesn't apply IMO -- the biz model that underpins the game itself is in fact broken.

To me, changing the amount of downs and the field size is a non starter. If the league goes to 4 downs, you will see a lot more running, a lot more time consuming drives, and not necessarily more excitement. Again, to me, the beauty of the CFL is that each team has a lot more possessions per game, be it because of the 2 and out factor, or just quick strike TD's. The fact that there are more possession changes, keeps games in doubt longer. Much more opportunity for late game comebacks, and truly the reason we say no lead is safe in the CFL.

I really hope this turns out to be a whole lot about nothing, much like pretty well everything else that comes out of Ambrisie's mouth.

As I have said earlier, I don't see how this will benefit the CFL in any way. There will be no guaranteed money coming from US TV. XFL didn't have it, and neither did the AAFL. I think Ambrosie and the league are thinking that Dwayne Johnson's popularity alone will bring the league a financial winfall. I don't see it. Pro football in the US will not succeed unless it is the NFL. The last league that had a chance was the USFL, because they paid comparable salaries to the NFL and were able to take some top talent away. These days, that is impossible.

[paulwoods13]

To me, changing the amount of downs and the field size is a non starter. If the league goes to 4 downs, you will see a lot more running, a lot more time consuming drives, and not necessarily more excitement.

The recent history of the NFL says otherwise. Three yards and a cloud of dust hasn't existed since the 1970s.

IMO the NFL has been significantly more entertaining (at least as a TV product) than the CFL for quite some time. I would never have said that 30-40 years ago, but that's how it looks to me now.

If making rules revisions a non-starter means no pro football in Canada, then hope the powers that be would consider rule changes before they allow the league to die. Much as I hate to say it, I think the latter is entirely possible even with rule changes; the ability to exist indefinitely without profit is not unlimited, even for mega-corps like MLSE.

[ArgoGabe22]

IMO the NFL has been significantly more entertaining (at least as a TV product) than the CFL for quite some time. I would never have said that 30-40 years ago, but that's how it looks to me now.

Do you mean the NFL as a whole for just the marque matchups of the NFL are better than the CFL? Because there are a lot of terrible teams and overall games in the NFL as well. Many may not make it to the airways (unless you have PPV). There have been some great NFL games, no doubt and I agree the CFL has perhaps hit a plateau while the NFL has improved over the years. BUT I think only a few team teams kind of carry that impression vs the actual league. Would you rather watch worst two teams of the CFL play each other or the worst of the NFL? I think the CFL has the advantage when it comes to watching bad teams.

[paulwoods13]

Do you mean the NFL as a whole for just the marque matchups of the NFL are better than the CFL? Because there are a lot of terrible teams and overall games in the NFL as well. Many may not make it to the airways (unless you have PPV). There have been some great NFL games, no doubt and I agree the CFL has perhaps hit a plateau while the NFL has improved over the years. BUT I think only a few team teams kind of carry that impression vs the actual league. Would you rather watch worst two teams of the CFL play each other or the worst of the NFL? I think the CFL has the advantage when it comes to watching bad teams.

Sure, the marquee matchups in the NFL are better than the dog games, but there are a lot of NFL teams that are good and/or entertaining, hence a lot of attractive matchups. Conversely, in a league with just four games per week, there are weeks with no really attractive games. I'd rather not watch two bad teams play each other in any league, but the NFL at least has vastly superior TV production. Given a direct choice, I'd probably watch the CFL dogs because their result probably matters in some way to the Argos. But as I've written on Twitter, my interest in non-Argo CFL games has waned for several years. I don't go out of my way to watch if Argos are not playing, other than playoff games. That's a reflection of many factors, but one of them is the fact that the CFL game has become less entertaining than it used to be, IMO.

[AngeloV]

The recent history of the NFL says otherwise. Three yards and a cloud of dust hasn't existed since the 1970s.

I never said it would be 3 yards and a cloud of dust. But with yards per carry in the CFL considerably higher for backs than they are in the NFL, you will see more rushing if it goes to 4 downs. NFL still has a lot of quarters where each team only has 1 possession. With 16 games a week, there are going to be 5 or 6 great, really exciting games. But there are still a lot of unwatchable games every week. CFL has some too, don't get me wrong. But most of us watch EVERY CFL game, because the schedule allows us to do so. I'm sure if you watched EVERY NFL game throughout the week, your thought of the NFL being more exciting might just be less than what it is.

Again though, I will once again ask. Why would anyone think the XFL would provide the CFL with any form of financial stability? From it's history of dying twice? Or does "the Rock" have that much power over people that they will buy anything he is involved in? XFL can benefit from this partnership more than the CFL. I think the league is making a huge mistake here and are thinking this partnership will help in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. I say it will have ZERO long term success.

[OV Argo]

I never said it would be 3 yards and a cloud of dust. But with yards per carry in the CFL considerably higher for backs than they are in the NFL, you will see more rushing if it goes to 4 downs. NFL still has a lot of quarters where each team only has 1 possession. With 16 games a week, there are going to be 5 or 6 great, really exciting games. But there are still a lot of unwatchable games every week. CFL has some too, don't get me wrong. But most of us watch EVERY CFL game, because the schedule allows us to do so. I'm sure if you watched EVERY NFL game throughout the week, your thought of the NFL being more exciting might just be less than what it is.

Again though, I will once again ask. Why would anyone think the XFL would provide the CFL with any form of financial stability? From it's history of dying twice? Or does "the Rock" have that much power over people that they will buy anything he is involved in? XFL can benefit from this partnership more than the CFL. I think the league is making a huge mistake here and are thinking this partnership will help in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. I say it will have ZERO long term success.

Agree with what you are saying.

But maybe people are jumping the gun here with thinking that the CFL would see big changes in play / rules / rosters ?

When it might be that both the CFL & XFL are going to partner and come up with some smart & sharp ideas for resource sharing and with new good revenue streams ? Then maybe the CFL game would remain mostly the same with some new resources ?

Again though - IF they are thinking major changes to the CFL in terms of rules & play to become American football like, I believe it will be a HUGE error and miscalculation. They might retain a decent share of their current die hard fan base, but IMO they will lose LOTS of fans who might be disgusted with the sell-out; and IMO, the new fans (lovers of The Rock or hip new social media types and assorted wannabes) they might gain would not come close to the # of Canadian football fans they would lose. Be careful what you wish for, GOBs & BOGutless types.

[paulwoods13]

I never said it would be 3 yards and a cloud of dust. But with yards per carry in the CFL considerably higher for backs than they are in the NFL, you will see more rushing if it goes to 4 downs. NFL still has a lot of quarters where each team only has 1 possession. With 16 games a week, there are going to be 5 or 6 great, really exciting games. But there are still a lot of unwatchable games every week. CFL has some too, don't get me wrong. But most of us watch EVERY CFL game, because the schedule allows us to do so. I'm sure if you watched EVERY NFL game throughout the week, your thought of the NFL being more exciting might just be less than what it is.

Again though, I will once again ask. Why would anyone think the XFL would provide the CFL with any form of financial stability? From it's history of dying twice? Or does "the Rock" have that much power over people that they will buy anything he is involved in? XFL can benefit from this partnership more than the CFL. I think the league is making a huge mistake here and are thinking this partnership will help in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. I say it will have ZERO long term success.

It had not occurred to me that you were referring to four downs on CFL-sized fields. I find it hard to imagine we would go to four-down football but leave something as important as field size untouched. But I grant that four downs on a CFL-sized field might increase the amount of running. Altho no form of adult football -- NFL, CFL, college -- is run-heavy these days so it seems unlikely to me that CFL teams/coaches would suddenly load up to run the ball most of the time. If one or two did, tho, how terrible would that be? I (and others, including some I seldom agree with) have bemoaned the sameness of CFL offences. A run-heavy approach from a team or two might be refreshing and would almost certainly force defences to stop all looking the same as each other. Much as I love passing, I've also enjoyed those periods when the Argos were able to ram the ball down defences' throats (with Wilder, Kackert and Boyd at times in recent vintage).

As for why the XFL would provide financial stability, without knowing what's in store it's impossible to say whether it would or would not work. But there is zero doubt in my mind that the CFL has to do something to change a dying business model. I say this with sadness but (IMO) realism. The league as we know it, in nine cities including Toronto, cannot become successful enough to stay in business much longer unless it finds new sources of revenue, or finds a way to dramatically slash costs (and the latter would mitigate against the former, probably). Partnering with another league, however new and unproven that league might be, is not on its face either a good idea or a bad idea. It's what the partnership looks like that matters, and we don't yet know. But we do know that Dwayne Johnson has an online presence that reaches eons beyond what the CFL has ever had on its own. We all seem to agree that the CFL needs to attract more paying customers -- if a guy like Johnson can get some of those for it, that's worth looking at.

BTW, I was crunching some numbers today. Even though I expected to see something like this, the numbers are rather stunning.

In 2020, the NFL averaged 49.5 points per game. In 2019, the CFL averaged 49.6 points per game.

In 1990, the NFL averaged 40.2 points per game. So its scoring has gone up 23 per cent since then.

In 1990, the CFL averaged 61.9 points per game. So its scoring has gone down 20 per cent since then.

[OV Argo]

Still believe there could be a trial balloon aspect to this news coming out. As dim-witted as I believe Ambrosie and some of the BOGutless types are, they might be thinking let's gauge media and fan & public reaction to this news/idea, and then decide to proceed from there ?

[Skinny G]

As for why the XFL would provide financial stability, without knowing what's in store it's impossible to say whether it would or would not work. But there is zero doubt in my mind that the CFL has to do something to change a dying business model. I say this with sadness but (IMO) realism. The league as we know it, in nine cities including Toronto, cannot become successful enough to stay in business much longer unless it finds new sources of revenue, or finds a way to dramatically slash costs (and the latter would mitigate against the former, probably). Partnering with another league, however new and unproven that league might be, is not on its face either a good idea or a bad idea. It's what the partnership looks like that matters, and we don't yet know. But we do know that Dwayne Johnson has an online presence that reaches eons beyond what the CFL has ever had on its own. We all seem to agree that the CFL needs to attract more paying customers -- if a guy like Johnson can get some of those for it, that's worth looking at.

Have a listen to Chris Cuthbert's interview.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/rintoul...ter-blueprint/

Agree with you, they need to find other sources of revenue. So why did the CFL not accept the invitation to be there with the House of Commons committee around Bill C-218? Everyone has been talking about how much of a positive financial impact it would be to have sports betting in Canada.

Also, he calls out that the league still hasn't looked at a revenue sharing model.

CFL 2.0 is supposed to bring in TV revenue, and understanding the pandemic impacted that, this is still something that can generate revenue. There was a lot of progress with this initiative, but like has been the case with Ambrosie, start something, don't finish it, and move on to the next shiny penny.

Also, social media followers does not guarantee people will be in the stands. Sure it's a nice to have.

[OV Argo]

I never said it would be 3 yards and a cloud of dust. But with yards per carry in the CFL considerably higher for backs than they are in the NFL, you will see more rushing if it goes to 4 downs. NFL still has a lot of quarters where each team only has 1 possession. With 16 games a week, there are going to be 5 or 6 great, really exciting games. But there are still a lot of unwatchable games every week. CFL has some too, don't get me wrong. But most of us watch EVERY CFL game, because the schedule allows us to do so. I'm sure if you watched EVERY NFL game throughout the week, your thought of the NFL being more exciting might just be less than what it is.

Again though, I will once again ask. Why would anyone think the XFL would provide the CFL with any form of financial stability? From it's history of dying twice? Or does "the Rock" have that much power over people that they will buy anything he is involved in? XFL can benefit from this partnership more than the CFL. I think the league is making a huge mistake here and are thinking this partnership will help in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. I say it will have ZERO long term success.

You're bang-on AV about some of us getting to watch pretty well every game in a 9 (or even 10) team CFL season; you can get to know every team pretty well and look forward to the different match-ups; I've always been more of a pan-CFL fan rather than just a pure Argo fan.

OTOH - unless you are a total football junkie who does nothing but watch NFL games on tape all day long, there is no way you can know that league as well as a big CFL fan knows the CFL.

And there has almost always been great games in a week of both CFL & NFL scheds. IMO; sure better chance of seeing a great NFL game with 16 games in a weekend to (possibly) watch; but they are very different games and trying to compare and decide one game is so much better or exciting than the other = don't get that. And IMO, the Grey Cup (and CFL play-offs AND U Sports ball play-offs) almost yearly blow away most NFL big games, for entertainment and pure football value. NFL Tom Brady GOAT hero-worshipping makes me want to puke at times. Cause i like CFL ball better, but I still appreciate and watch great NFL action.

[dmont]

I think the CFL/XFL collaboration is exciting. Yes, there are lots of ways it can go wrong for the CFL, but there are also a few ways it could go right. After reading all the analysis and listening to all the podcasts, there seems to be a lot of confusion about how these teams could mutually benefit from cooperating. Here are my thoughts:
What the XFL needs from the CFL:

1. The infrastructure and institutional knowledge necessary to manage a football league. While the CFL hasn’t proven it can make a boatload of profits, they have successfully run football seasons for nine football teams since the 1950s. Without this, the XFL would be starting from scratch and would have to build their own, which is costly and prone to errors and growing pains. Why not take the money that they would have spent getting their management and logistical operations together and instead pay the CFL a fraction of the cost to do it for them? Collaboration here would take advantage of economies of scale.

1. Nine established teams that will be able to reliably field players week in and week out against the newly formed XFL sides. This means the XFL wouldn’t have to start off with 8 or 10 franchises (of which only 4 or 5 are strong). It could instead launch with the most promising 4 to 6 markets and then rely on inter-league play with the CFL teams to fill out their schedule. It allows them to grow slowly without placing undue pressure to launch in weak markets.

1. TV production relationship with TSN. The CFL already has an established relationship with a respected TV broadcaster in TSN that can produce football games with a first-class feel and appearance. We’ve seen spring football leagues be able to get on TV, but they were most likely paying for the production and not benefiting financially. While I’m sure inter-league games wouldn’t draw quite as well as CFL-only games, I expect that the additional content would be valuable to TSN and they would be willing to pay something for it. Those games could then be re-broadcast in the US for the XFL, who wouldn’t have to pay to produce the games and might even get a share of TSN money. That leaves the XFL having to only pay to produce the XFL-only games, which TSN could probably do best given that they already have the infrastructure and institutional knowledge. In sum, the XFL could save a lot on getting their games produced by piggy-backing on the CFL’s relationship with TSN.

What the CFL needs from the XFL:

1. Cooperation, not competition. I think the CFL looked at XFL 2.0 and saw an operation that almost worked, and might have even succeeded if not for COVID. While the CFL has survived upstart US leagues in the past, but all it takes is one to gather momentum and become a competitor that could put the CFL out of business, given the current shaky financial situation. Rather than continue to rely on luck, I think the CFL has decided it’s better to cooperate and have some influence on how spring/summer US football moves forward.

1. A marketing game-changer. Yes, there are lots of people in Canada who are not CFL fans, but the league has been trying to reach them for 15 years and has not been successful. This is not for lack of trying, and it could be that the current form of the league (only 9 teams, playing the same teams over and over) has exhausted its options for growth in Canada. It needs to make a splash in order to capture peoples’ attention. Look at how much media attention the CFL has gotten from just EXPLORING collaboration with the XFL. The opportunity for inter-league play, and having CFL teams analyzed by US sports outlets alongside the XFL teams, is shaking things up for a change and it could jumpstart interest in Canadian non-CFL fans. Also…

1. Increased US media exposure. While it continues to struggle to attract new fans in Canada, inter-league play with XFL provides exposure in the US that the CFL has never had. Showing games on ESPN has never worked because Americans didn’t care to see two Canadian teams competing. However, with CFL teams playing XFL teams, American outlets would have no choice but to pay attention and provide analysis for CFL teams and players. If the CFL’s collaboration allows the XFL to remain sustainable long enough to land a substantial TV contract, and the CFL becomes a stakeholder under this collaboration, then this could be the best opportunity to stabilize the CFL’s finances.