CFL/XFL Collaboration

[OV Argo]

Oh no, I have been exposed for the coward that I am. I might have known you would see right through me.

Yep; looks like it; so be it then.

[OV Argo]

Here is what Jim Mullins (someone who CLEARLY loves our game and our league!) posted last night about this - https://twitter.com/Jim_MullinTSN

Here are some personal thoughts from someone on the front lines of amateur football in Canada after the news broke yesterday regarding the CFL and XFL discussing possible alignment paths. /1

Canadian Football was my gateway into football and remained the vehicle to why I, along with legions of fans, coaches, officials, volunteers and media across Canada, dedicate their time, energy and passion to building the game./2

Today, football is much more than the 12-man game in our country. It is 6-man for kids and small towns. It is flag for beginners and Team Canada at World Championships. It is our world junior team winning back-to-back gold medals playing American Football. /3

For some, contributing to something uniquely Canadian can be more significant than the sport itself. Our Canadian game is just that; it’s ours. It does not belong to a league, a conference or an association. It's a set of values we share that sustain us as an unlikely nation. /4

In a country that asks so little of us to be Canadian, football demands our better self; To make disparate parts work in unison, with a dedication to the community and a focus on resourcefulness. /5

The CFL has decisions to make as a league to set it on a sustainable pathway as a business instead of remaining a philanthropic institution. However, alignment within the sport in Canada needs to remain a primary objective. /6

Cities, municipalities, schools and universities have installed infrastructure specific to our game. The league cannot radically alter their game in isolation without adverse effects on our sport. /7

Let’s move forward with confidence in what we’ve developed in over 150 years of Canadian football. Let’s dialogue with those globally who respect what we’ve achieved in our sport. And, if a visiting team wants a game here, stand proud & invite them to play our game. #playourgame

Good for Jim Mullin - bravo !!! Canadian football needs way more like him, IMO.

People are jumping the gun on what will happen with these XFL talks, and some are seeing doom & gloom. But who really knows at this point.

But IF the CFL does undergo radical changes including converting to American rules and further reductions in Canadian talent getting real shots to play in the big league in their own country, then I won't be watching the (X)CFL anymore; don't care if the BOGs make oodles of ca$h and they get noticed in the USA. Some up here might go for a shiny new XCFL, but I bet a lot won't and would still crave real Canadian football.

So, there might become a void for a new league of Canadian football - one that is not run by Americans / for Americans like the current CFL has evolved to. One that maintains Canadian football rules, tradition & history and values top Canadian talent playing. And groups and people like Football Canada & Mr. Mullin along with some wealthy backers might get a chance to form such a league - would be a tough road probably, but you never know.

[AngeloV]

The game could be perfect, but if the audience keeps dwindling it eventually won't matter -- there will be no game to celebrate.

And as I've argued here and elsewhere, there are things in the CFL rulebook that have made the game less entertaining than it used to be. Twelve men, three downs and field size aren't on that list, but neither should they be sacred cows. "If it ain't broken" doesn't apply IMO -- the biz model that underpins the game itself is in fact broken.

To me, changing the amount of downs and the field size is a non starter. If the league goes to 4 downs, you will see a lot more running, a lot more time consuming drives, and not necessarily more excitement. Again, to me, the beauty of the CFL is that each team has a lot more possessions per game, be it because of the 2 and out factor, or just quick strike TD's. The fact that there are more possession changes, keeps games in doubt longer. Much more opportunity for late game comebacks, and truly the reason we say no lead is safe in the CFL.

I really hope this turns out to be a whole lot about nothing, much like pretty well everything else that comes out of Ambrisie's mouth.

As I have said earlier, I don't see how this will benefit the CFL in any way. There will be no guaranteed money coming from US TV. XFL didn't have it, and neither did the AAFL. I think Ambrosie and the league are thinking that Dwayne Johnson's popularity alone will bring the league a financial winfall. I don't see it. Pro football in the US will not succeed unless it is the NFL. The last league that had a chance was the USFL, because they paid comparable salaries to the NFL and were able to take some top talent away. These days, that is impossible.

[paulwoods13]

To me, changing the amount of downs and the field size is a non starter. If the league goes to 4 downs, you will see a lot more running, a lot more time consuming drives, and not necessarily more excitement.

The recent history of the NFL says otherwise. Three yards and a cloud of dust hasn't existed since the 1970s.

IMO the NFL has been significantly more entertaining (at least as a TV product) than the CFL for quite some time. I would never have said that 30-40 years ago, but that's how it looks to me now.

If making rules revisions a non-starter means no pro football in Canada, then hope the powers that be would consider rule changes before they allow the league to die. Much as I hate to say it, I think the latter is entirely possible even with rule changes; the ability to exist indefinitely without profit is not unlimited, even for mega-corps like MLSE.

[ArgoGabe22]

IMO the NFL has been significantly more entertaining (at least as a TV product) than the CFL for quite some time. I would never have said that 30-40 years ago, but that's how it looks to me now.

Do you mean the NFL as a whole for just the marque matchups of the NFL are better than the CFL? Because there are a lot of terrible teams and overall games in the NFL as well. Many may not make it to the airways (unless you have PPV). There have been some great NFL games, no doubt and I agree the CFL has perhaps hit a plateau while the NFL has improved over the years. BUT I think only a few team teams kind of carry that impression vs the actual league. Would you rather watch worst two teams of the CFL play each other or the worst of the NFL? I think the CFL has the advantage when it comes to watching bad teams.

[paulwoods13]

Do you mean the NFL as a whole for just the marque matchups of the NFL are better than the CFL? Because there are a lot of terrible teams and overall games in the NFL as well. Many may not make it to the airways (unless you have PPV). There have been some great NFL games, no doubt and I agree the CFL has perhaps hit a plateau while the NFL has improved over the years. BUT I think only a few team teams kind of carry that impression vs the actual league. Would you rather watch worst two teams of the CFL play each other or the worst of the NFL? I think the CFL has the advantage when it comes to watching bad teams.

Sure, the marquee matchups in the NFL are better than the dog games, but there are a lot of NFL teams that are good and/or entertaining, hence a lot of attractive matchups. Conversely, in a league with just four games per week, there are weeks with no really attractive games. I'd rather not watch two bad teams play each other in any league, but the NFL at least has vastly superior TV production. Given a direct choice, I'd probably watch the CFL dogs because their result probably matters in some way to the Argos. But as I've written on Twitter, my interest in non-Argo CFL games has waned for several years. I don't go out of my way to watch if Argos are not playing, other than playoff games. That's a reflection of many factors, but one of them is the fact that the CFL game has become less entertaining than it used to be, IMO.

[AngeloV]

The recent history of the NFL says otherwise. Three yards and a cloud of dust hasn't existed since the 1970s.

I never said it would be 3 yards and a cloud of dust. But with yards per carry in the CFL considerably higher for backs than they are in the NFL, you will see more rushing if it goes to 4 downs. NFL still has a lot of quarters where each team only has 1 possession. With 16 games a week, there are going to be 5 or 6 great, really exciting games. But there are still a lot of unwatchable games every week. CFL has some too, don't get me wrong. But most of us watch EVERY CFL game, because the schedule allows us to do so. I'm sure if you watched EVERY NFL game throughout the week, your thought of the NFL being more exciting might just be less than what it is.

Again though, I will once again ask. Why would anyone think the XFL would provide the CFL with any form of financial stability? From it's history of dying twice? Or does "the Rock" have that much power over people that they will buy anything he is involved in? XFL can benefit from this partnership more than the CFL. I think the league is making a huge mistake here and are thinking this partnership will help in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. I say it will have ZERO long term success.

[Argo57]

Very interesting that a league that has failed twice is seen as a lifeline for the CFL’s survival.
I don’t see a “merger” succeeding in any way.
4 down football on a Canadian size field would lead to slow methodical drives dominated by running plays which would be painful to watch IMO.
What currency would the players be paid in?
Would American players want to play for Canadian teams if they have the option to play for a team down south? (I say no).
What rules would they play under?
When would the season start and finish? Starting the CFL season earlier in the year would potentially conflict with the NHL playoffs conversely shifting the XFL season to later in the year starts to conflict with with NFL training camps and the start of their season. (Good luck with either scenario).
Randy Ambrosie is involved, zero faith in him or his “vision” for the CFL.

[OV Argo]

I never said it would be 3 yards and a cloud of dust. But with yards per carry in the CFL considerably higher for backs than they are in the NFL, you will see more rushing if it goes to 4 downs. NFL still has a lot of quarters where each team only has 1 possession. With 16 games a week, there are going to be 5 or 6 great, really exciting games. But there are still a lot of unwatchable games every week. CFL has some too, don't get me wrong. But most of us watch EVERY CFL game, because the schedule allows us to do so. I'm sure if you watched EVERY NFL game throughout the week, your thought of the NFL being more exciting might just be less than what it is.

Again though, I will once again ask. Why would anyone think the XFL would provide the CFL with any form of financial stability? From it's history of dying twice? Or does "the Rock" have that much power over people that they will buy anything he is involved in? XFL can benefit from this partnership more than the CFL. I think the league is making a huge mistake here and are thinking this partnership will help in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. I say it will have ZERO long term success.

Agree with what you are saying.

But maybe people are jumping the gun here with thinking that the CFL would see big changes in play / rules / rosters ?

When it might be that both the CFL & XFL are going to partner and come up with some smart & sharp ideas for resource sharing and with new good revenue streams ? Then maybe the CFL game would remain mostly the same with some new resources ?

Again though - IF they are thinking major changes to the CFL in terms of rules & play to become American football like, I believe it will be a HUGE error and miscalculation. They might retain a decent share of their current die hard fan base, but IMO they will lose LOTS of fans who might be disgusted with the sell-out; and IMO, the new fans (lovers of The Rock or hip new social media types and assorted wannabes) they might gain would not come close to the # of Canadian football fans they would lose. Be careful what you wish for, GOBs & BOGutless types.

[paulwoods13]

I never said it would be 3 yards and a cloud of dust. But with yards per carry in the CFL considerably higher for backs than they are in the NFL, you will see more rushing if it goes to 4 downs. NFL still has a lot of quarters where each team only has 1 possession. With 16 games a week, there are going to be 5 or 6 great, really exciting games. But there are still a lot of unwatchable games every week. CFL has some too, don't get me wrong. But most of us watch EVERY CFL game, because the schedule allows us to do so. I'm sure if you watched EVERY NFL game throughout the week, your thought of the NFL being more exciting might just be less than what it is.

Again though, I will once again ask. Why would anyone think the XFL would provide the CFL with any form of financial stability? From it's history of dying twice? Or does "the Rock" have that much power over people that they will buy anything he is involved in? XFL can benefit from this partnership more than the CFL. I think the league is making a huge mistake here and are thinking this partnership will help in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. I say it will have ZERO long term success.

It had not occurred to me that you were referring to four downs on CFL-sized fields. I find it hard to imagine we would go to four-down football but leave something as important as field size untouched. But I grant that four downs on a CFL-sized field might increase the amount of running. Altho no form of adult football -- NFL, CFL, college -- is run-heavy these days so it seems unlikely to me that CFL teams/coaches would suddenly load up to run the ball most of the time. If one or two did, tho, how terrible would that be? I (and others, including some I seldom agree with) have bemoaned the sameness of CFL offences. A run-heavy approach from a team or two might be refreshing and would almost certainly force defences to stop all looking the same as each other. Much as I love passing, I've also enjoyed those periods when the Argos were able to ram the ball down defences' throats (with Wilder, Kackert and Boyd at times in recent vintage).

As for why the XFL would provide financial stability, without knowing what's in store it's impossible to say whether it would or would not work. But there is zero doubt in my mind that the CFL has to do something to change a dying business model. I say this with sadness but (IMO) realism. The league as we know it, in nine cities including Toronto, cannot become successful enough to stay in business much longer unless it finds new sources of revenue, or finds a way to dramatically slash costs (and the latter would mitigate against the former, probably). Partnering with another league, however new and unproven that league might be, is not on its face either a good idea or a bad idea. It's what the partnership looks like that matters, and we don't yet know. But we do know that Dwayne Johnson has an online presence that reaches eons beyond what the CFL has ever had on its own. We all seem to agree that the CFL needs to attract more paying customers -- if a guy like Johnson can get some of those for it, that's worth looking at.

BTW, I was crunching some numbers today. Even though I expected to see something like this, the numbers are rather stunning.

In 2020, the NFL averaged 49.5 points per game. In 2019, the CFL averaged 49.6 points per game.

In 1990, the NFL averaged 40.2 points per game. So its scoring has gone up 23 per cent since then.

In 1990, the CFL averaged 61.9 points per game. So its scoring has gone down 20 per cent since then.

[OV Argo]

Still believe there could be a trial balloon aspect to this news coming out. As dim-witted as I believe Ambrosie and some of the BOGutless types are, they might be thinking let's gauge media and fan & public reaction to this news/idea, and then decide to proceed from there ?

[shayman]

Here's an idea. 4 downs. but to make 10 Metres, not 10 Yards. You've got to go about 10% further per down. Our downs are bigger. And the field is 100 metres, which is pretty close to 110 yards. Distinctly Canadian, metric football.

[Skinny G]

MLSE = net worth of a billion buck$ plus ?

Net Worth - MLSE

- Probably around $5-6 Billion (2.5 Billion for Raptors, 1.5/1.8 for Leafs, + Real Estate and other ventures)
- Add Bell Media - Net Assets $60 Billion, Rogers - Net Assets $30 Billion, Kilmer Group (Tannenbaum) - $2 Billion

Networth XFL
- Rebird (Gerry Cardinale) - $4 Billion US
- Dany Garcia - $20 Million US
- The Rock - $400 Million US

Went through the Redbird investment advisor profiles, this people look like they will be there with Cardinale - Andy Gordon, Nicole Musicco, Alec Scheiner, Mike Zabik, Niraj Shah, Isaac Halyard, Michael Kaplan, Brent Stehlik

Here's Cardinale's Profile
https://www.redbirdcap.com/people/#member-406-info

Other Profiles
https://www.redbirdcap.com/people/

Redbird has also recently taken a sports acquisition company public. From the article "SPAC companies are generally used to raise money, which is stored in escrow for two years, while officials seek to acquire distressed or companies for sale."

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/28/priv...ny-public.html

Let's think about another Canadian (now American/Brazilian) company that was purchased by a private equity firm - Tim Hortons. It's all about money to those firms, and nothing more.

I'll say again, if this is TRULY about a partnership, great. But the lack of clarity smells fishy.

[OV Argo]

Hey - what's Calgary Sports and Entertainment net worth ?

What's Bob-O Young's net worth ?

Wonder about Roger Greenberg ?

Man, the CFL is mired in poverty; gotta reach out to The Rock and sell-out the CFL ;o)

"Fishy" - more like gang of corporate clowns who really don't give a rat's @$$ about the CFL and Canadian football - gotta stay focused on their bottom line @$$es

[Skinny G]

As for why the XFL would provide financial stability, without knowing what's in store it's impossible to say whether it would or would not work. But there is zero doubt in my mind that the CFL has to do something to change a dying business model. I say this with sadness but (IMO) realism. The league as we know it, in nine cities including Toronto, cannot become successful enough to stay in business much longer unless it finds new sources of revenue, or finds a way to dramatically slash costs (and the latter would mitigate against the former, probably). Partnering with another league, however new and unproven that league might be, is not on its face either a good idea or a bad idea. It's what the partnership looks like that matters, and we don't yet know. But we do know that Dwayne Johnson has an online presence that reaches eons beyond what the CFL has ever had on its own. We all seem to agree that the CFL needs to attract more paying customers -- if a guy like Johnson can get some of those for it, that's worth looking at.

Have a listen to Chris Cuthbert's interview.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/rintoul...ter-blueprint/

Agree with you, they need to find other sources of revenue. So why did the CFL not accept the invitation to be there with the House of Commons committee around Bill C-218? Everyone has been talking about how much of a positive financial impact it would be to have sports betting in Canada.

Also, he calls out that the league still hasn't looked at a revenue sharing model.

CFL 2.0 is supposed to bring in TV revenue, and understanding the pandemic impacted that, this is still something that can generate revenue. There was a lot of progress with this initiative, but like has been the case with Ambrosie, start something, don't finish it, and move on to the next shiny penny.

Also, social media followers does not guarantee people will be in the stands. Sure it's a nice to have.

[Skinny G]

Hey - what's Calgary Sports and Entertainment net worth ?

What's Bob-O Young's net worth ?

Wonder about Roger Greenberg ?

Man, the CFL is mired in poverty; gotta reach out to The Rock and sell-out the CFL ;o)

"Fishy" - more like gang of corporate clowns who really don't give a rat's @$$ about the CFL and Canadian football - gotta stay focused on their bottom line @$$es

Calgary Sports & Entertainment - $1-2 Billion probably? (Flames are around $500 Million, the main owner himself Murray Edwards is around $1.75 Billion)

Bob Young - I think around $500 Mil to $1 Billion, haven't found it yet

Roger Greenberg - $1.5 Billion

[SkalbaniasGhost]

Let's think about another Canadian (now American/Brazilian) company that was purchased by a private equity firm - Tim Hortons. It's all about money to those firms, and nothing more.

I'll say again, if this is TRULY about a partnership, great. But the lack of clarity smells fishy.

Your instincts are right.

It's not going to be a partnership. The CFL crew will be shown the door.

[Shatto]

If the purpose of the XFL/CFL initiative is to increase the revenue stream and there doesn't seem to any other credible reason, then it certainly isn't clear how this could be achieved. As stated by others on this thread, any league not called the NFL, has to the greatest extent failed to deliver any large revenue stream from TV. How a merger or even a closer arrangement between the leagues would provide a good revenue stream, needs to be fully explained.

If, in order to merge, the CFL were to convert to a spring/summer schedule, go to 4 downs and 11 players, move to the smaller American field, eliminate Canadian content, many of the present fans would, IMO, desert the league. Why watch a watered down version of the NFL, when we can see the "real" thing on TV. It would also precipitate an increase demand for Toronto and perhaps Montreal to attract an NFL franchise, thus eventually spelling the end of the CFL. Whenever, launching a major initiative an organization needs to explore the negative consequences of the change and the negative consequences of the initiative could possibly spell the end of the CFL

This is not to say there couldn't be some advantages of a closer connection between the two leagues. Perhaps a game between the Grey Cup champs and the winner of the XFL championship, though the logistics would be very difficult to work out, especially with wildly different schedules and the very different rules.

There has also been discussion whether the NFL or CFL provides more excitement. One aspect of the CFL that is truly more exciting, is the fact that the game is never really over when so much can happen in the last three minutes of our game. The interesting issue is the presentation of the two products on TV. PW makes a very interesting observation that "the NFL has been significantly more entertaining as a TV product" and "the NFL has vastly superior TV production". If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it, then the real problem would appear to be the less than exciting and entertaining TV presentation by TSN. Maybe, we should be demanding the production level of the TSN's game presentations be greatly improved

If the present CFL is going to have difficulty continuing because of financial issues, perhaps the league needs to look at full gate revenue sharing. A more dramatic suggestion would be moving to a Canadians only, league. That would certainly encourage coaches to develop and play Canadian QB's. Personally, I would prefer to watch a Canadian only CFL, than a watered down and inferior version of the NFL---or is that being too Canadian of me?

[OV Argo]

If the purpose of the XFL/CFL initiative is to increase the revenue stream and there doesn't seem to any other credible reason, then it certainly isn't clear how this could be achieved. As stated by others on this thread, any league not called the NFL, has to the greatest extent failed to deliver any large revenue stream from TV. How a merger or even a closer arrangement between the leagues would provide a good revenue stream, needs to be fully explained.

If, in order to merge, the CFL were to convert to a spring/summer schedule, go to 4 downs and 11 players, move to the smaller American field, eliminate Canadian content, many of the present fans would, IMO, desert the league. Why watch a watered down version of the NFL, when we can see the "real" thing on TV. It would also precipitate an increase demand for Toronto and perhaps Montreal to attract an NFL franchise, thus eventually spelling the end of the CFL. Whenever, launching a major initiative an organization needs to explore the negative consequences of the change and the negative consequences of the initiative could possibly spell the end of the CFL

This is not to say there couldn't be some advantages of a closer connection between the two leagues. Perhaps a game between the Grey Cup champs and the winner of the XFL championship, though the logistics would be very difficult to work out, especially with wildly different schedules and the very different rules.

There has also been discussion whether the NFL or CFL provides more excitement. One aspect of the CFL that is truly more exciting, is the fact that the game is never really over when so much can happen in the last three minutes of our game. The interesting issue is the presentation of the two products on TV. PW makes a very interesting observation that "the NFL has been significantly more entertaining as a TV product" and "the NFL has vastly superior TV production". If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it, then the real problem would appear to be the less than exciting and entertaining TV presentation by TSN. Maybe, we should be demanding the production level of the TSN's game presentations be greatly improved

If the present CFL is going to have difficulty continuing because of financial issues, perhaps the league needs to look at full gate revenue sharing. A more dramatic suggestion would be moving to a Canadians only, league. That would certainly encourage coaches to develop and play Canadian QB's. Personally, I would prefer to watch a Canadian only CFL, than a watered down and inferior version of the NFL---or is that being too Canadian of me?

Well, I, for one, would gladly watch a new Canadian league with Canadian players only vs. watching my historic Toronto Argos play in a new XCFL featuring American rules football and American players only need apply - guarantee I would not watch that at all. I would still watch some NFL ball or some US college ball though.

The former has zero chance of happening with any of the current clique of CFL GOBs & BOGutless types involved; the latter - wouldn't be at all surprised to see come to pass.

Not a matter of being "too Canadian " IMO; more like having some decent respect for the tradition & history of Canadian Pro Football, and wanting to see top Canadian players (at all positions) get a shot to play in the big league in their own country.

[OV Argo]

I never said it would be 3 yards and a cloud of dust. But with yards per carry in the CFL considerably higher for backs than they are in the NFL, you will see more rushing if it goes to 4 downs. NFL still has a lot of quarters where each team only has 1 possession. With 16 games a week, there are going to be 5 or 6 great, really exciting games. But there are still a lot of unwatchable games every week. CFL has some too, don't get me wrong. But most of us watch EVERY CFL game, because the schedule allows us to do so. I'm sure if you watched EVERY NFL game throughout the week, your thought of the NFL being more exciting might just be less than what it is.

Again though, I will once again ask. Why would anyone think the XFL would provide the CFL with any form of financial stability? From it's history of dying twice? Or does "the Rock" have that much power over people that they will buy anything he is involved in? XFL can benefit from this partnership more than the CFL. I think the league is making a huge mistake here and are thinking this partnership will help in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. I say it will have ZERO long term success.

You're bang-on AV about some of us getting to watch pretty well every game in a 9 (or even 10) team CFL season; you can get to know every team pretty well and look forward to the different match-ups; I've always been more of a pan-CFL fan rather than just a pure Argo fan.

OTOH - unless you are a total football junkie who does nothing but watch NFL games on tape all day long, there is no way you can know that league as well as a big CFL fan knows the CFL.

And there has almost always been great games in a week of both CFL & NFL scheds. IMO; sure better chance of seeing a great NFL game with 16 games in a weekend to (possibly) watch; but they are very different games and trying to compare and decide one game is so much better or exciting than the other = don't get that. And IMO, the Grey Cup (and CFL play-offs AND U Sports ball play-offs) almost yearly blow away most NFL big games, for entertainment and pure football value. NFL Tom Brady GOAT hero-worshipping makes me want to puke at times. Cause i like CFL ball better, but I still appreciate and watch great NFL action.