CFL/XFL Collaboration

[paulwoods13]

If it ain't broken, don't fix it. Minor tweaks are fine like OT, converts etc. but is the wider field, 12 players, 3 downs really an issue that needs tweaking?

The game could be perfect, but if the audience keeps dwindling it eventually won't matter -- there will be no game to celebrate.

And as I've argued here and elsewhere, there are things in the CFL rulebook that have made the game less entertaining than it used to be. Twelve men, three downs and field size aren't on that list, but neither should they be sacred cows. "If it ain't broken" doesn't apply IMO -- the biz model that underpins the game itself is in fact broken.

[AngeloV]

The game could be perfect, but if the audience keeps dwindling it eventually won't matter -- there will be no game to celebrate.

And as I've argued here and elsewhere, there are things in the CFL rulebook that have made the game less entertaining than it used to be. Twelve men, three downs and field size aren't on that list, but neither should they be sacred cows. "If it ain't broken" doesn't apply IMO -- the biz model that underpins the game itself is in fact broken.

To me, changing the amount of downs and the field size is a non starter. If the league goes to 4 downs, you will see a lot more running, a lot more time consuming drives, and not necessarily more excitement. Again, to me, the beauty of the CFL is that each team has a lot more possessions per game, be it because of the 2 and out factor, or just quick strike TD's. The fact that there are more possession changes, keeps games in doubt longer. Much more opportunity for late game comebacks, and truly the reason we say no lead is safe in the CFL.

I really hope this turns out to be a whole lot about nothing, much like pretty well everything else that comes out of Ambrisie's mouth.

As I have said earlier, I don't see how this will benefit the CFL in any way. There will be no guaranteed money coming from US TV. XFL didn't have it, and neither did the AAFL. I think Ambrosie and the league are thinking that Dwayne Johnson's popularity alone will bring the league a financial winfall. I don't see it. Pro football in the US will not succeed unless it is the NFL. The last league that had a chance was the USFL, because they paid comparable salaries to the NFL and were able to take some top talent away. These days, that is impossible.

[paulwoods13]

To me, changing the amount of downs and the field size is a non starter. If the league goes to 4 downs, you will see a lot more running, a lot more time consuming drives, and not necessarily more excitement.

The recent history of the NFL says otherwise. Three yards and a cloud of dust hasn't existed since the 1970s.

IMO the NFL has been significantly more entertaining (at least as a TV product) than the CFL for quite some time. I would never have said that 30-40 years ago, but that's how it looks to me now.

If making rules revisions a non-starter means no pro football in Canada, then hope the powers that be would consider rule changes before they allow the league to die. Much as I hate to say it, I think the latter is entirely possible even with rule changes; the ability to exist indefinitely without profit is not unlimited, even for mega-corps like MLSE.

[Argo57]

Very interesting that a league that has failed twice is seen as a lifeline for the CFL’s survival.
I don’t see a “merger” succeeding in any way.
4 down football on a Canadian size field would lead to slow methodical drives dominated by running plays which would be painful to watch IMO.
What currency would the players be paid in?
Would American players want to play for Canadian teams if they have the option to play for a team down south? (I say no).
What rules would they play under?
When would the season start and finish? Starting the CFL season earlier in the year would potentially conflict with the NHL playoffs conversely shifting the XFL season to later in the year starts to conflict with with NFL training camps and the start of their season. (Good luck with either scenario).
Randy Ambrosie is involved, zero faith in him or his “vision” for the CFL.

[shayman]

Here's an idea. 4 downs. but to make 10 Metres, not 10 Yards. You've got to go about 10% further per down. Our downs are bigger. And the field is 100 metres, which is pretty close to 110 yards. Distinctly Canadian, metric football.

[OV Argo]

Hey - what's Calgary Sports and Entertainment net worth ?

What's Bob-O Young's net worth ?

Wonder about Roger Greenberg ?

Man, the CFL is mired in poverty; gotta reach out to The Rock and sell-out the CFL ;o)

"Fishy" - more like gang of corporate clowns who really don't give a rat's @$$ about the CFL and Canadian football - gotta stay focused on their bottom line @$$es

[Skinny G]

Hey - what's Calgary Sports and Entertainment net worth ?

What's Bob-O Young's net worth ?

Wonder about Roger Greenberg ?

Man, the CFL is mired in poverty; gotta reach out to The Rock and sell-out the CFL ;o)

"Fishy" - more like gang of corporate clowns who really don't give a rat's @$$ about the CFL and Canadian football - gotta stay focused on their bottom line @$$es

Calgary Sports & Entertainment - $1-2 Billion probably? (Flames are around $500 Million, the main owner himself Murray Edwards is around $1.75 Billion)

Bob Young - I think around $500 Mil to $1 Billion, haven't found it yet

Roger Greenberg - $1.5 Billion

[Shatto]

If the purpose of the XFL/CFL initiative is to increase the revenue stream and there doesn't seem to any other credible reason, then it certainly isn't clear how this could be achieved. As stated by others on this thread, any league not called the NFL, has to the greatest extent failed to deliver any large revenue stream from TV. How a merger or even a closer arrangement between the leagues would provide a good revenue stream, needs to be fully explained.

If, in order to merge, the CFL were to convert to a spring/summer schedule, go to 4 downs and 11 players, move to the smaller American field, eliminate Canadian content, many of the present fans would, IMO, desert the league. Why watch a watered down version of the NFL, when we can see the "real" thing on TV. It would also precipitate an increase demand for Toronto and perhaps Montreal to attract an NFL franchise, thus eventually spelling the end of the CFL. Whenever, launching a major initiative an organization needs to explore the negative consequences of the change and the negative consequences of the initiative could possibly spell the end of the CFL

This is not to say there couldn't be some advantages of a closer connection between the two leagues. Perhaps a game between the Grey Cup champs and the winner of the XFL championship, though the logistics would be very difficult to work out, especially with wildly different schedules and the very different rules.

There has also been discussion whether the NFL or CFL provides more excitement. One aspect of the CFL that is truly more exciting, is the fact that the game is never really over when so much can happen in the last three minutes of our game. The interesting issue is the presentation of the two products on TV. PW makes a very interesting observation that "the NFL has been significantly more entertaining as a TV product" and "the NFL has vastly superior TV production". If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it, then the real problem would appear to be the less than exciting and entertaining TV presentation by TSN. Maybe, we should be demanding the production level of the TSN's game presentations be greatly improved

If the present CFL is going to have difficulty continuing because of financial issues, perhaps the league needs to look at full gate revenue sharing. A more dramatic suggestion would be moving to a Canadians only, league. That would certainly encourage coaches to develop and play Canadian QB's. Personally, I would prefer to watch a Canadian only CFL, than a watered down and inferior version of the NFL---or is that being too Canadian of me?

[OV Argo]

If the purpose of the XFL/CFL initiative is to increase the revenue stream and there doesn't seem to any other credible reason, then it certainly isn't clear how this could be achieved. As stated by others on this thread, any league not called the NFL, has to the greatest extent failed to deliver any large revenue stream from TV. How a merger or even a closer arrangement between the leagues would provide a good revenue stream, needs to be fully explained.

If, in order to merge, the CFL were to convert to a spring/summer schedule, go to 4 downs and 11 players, move to the smaller American field, eliminate Canadian content, many of the present fans would, IMO, desert the league. Why watch a watered down version of the NFL, when we can see the "real" thing on TV. It would also precipitate an increase demand for Toronto and perhaps Montreal to attract an NFL franchise, thus eventually spelling the end of the CFL. Whenever, launching a major initiative an organization needs to explore the negative consequences of the change and the negative consequences of the initiative could possibly spell the end of the CFL

This is not to say there couldn't be some advantages of a closer connection between the two leagues. Perhaps a game between the Grey Cup champs and the winner of the XFL championship, though the logistics would be very difficult to work out, especially with wildly different schedules and the very different rules.

There has also been discussion whether the NFL or CFL provides more excitement. One aspect of the CFL that is truly more exciting, is the fact that the game is never really over when so much can happen in the last three minutes of our game. The interesting issue is the presentation of the two products on TV. PW makes a very interesting observation that "the NFL has been significantly more entertaining as a TV product" and "the NFL has vastly superior TV production". If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it, then the real problem would appear to be the less than exciting and entertaining TV presentation by TSN. Maybe, we should be demanding the production level of the TSN's game presentations be greatly improved

If the present CFL is going to have difficulty continuing because of financial issues, perhaps the league needs to look at full gate revenue sharing. A more dramatic suggestion would be moving to a Canadians only, league. That would certainly encourage coaches to develop and play Canadian QB's. Personally, I would prefer to watch a Canadian only CFL, than a watered down and inferior version of the NFL---or is that being too Canadian of me?

Well, I, for one, would gladly watch a new Canadian league with Canadian players only vs. watching my historic Toronto Argos play in a new XCFL featuring American rules football and American players only need apply - guarantee I would not watch that at all. I would still watch some NFL ball or some US college ball though.

The former has zero chance of happening with any of the current clique of CFL GOBs & BOGutless types involved; the latter - wouldn't be at all surprised to see come to pass.

Not a matter of being "too Canadian " IMO; more like having some decent respect for the tradition & history of Canadian Pro Football, and wanting to see top Canadian players (at all positions) get a shot to play in the big league in their own country.

[paulwoods13]

Why watch a watered down version of the NFL, when we can see the "real" thing on TV.

Exact same question could be asked about MLS, and yet it seems to be growing steadily as a gate attraction.

Maybe, we should be demanding the production level of the TSN's game presentations be greatly improved

We absolutely should demand that, but the field size makes it more difficult. The NFL field size (plus 11 men a side) allows for tighter shots. I think NFL stadiums also have better lighting than some CFL stadiums, altho the CFL has improved a lot from the old days when there were giant shadows in some end zones.

[Skinny G]

Exact same question could be asked about MLS, and yet it seems to be growing steadily as a gate attraction.

It is slowly growing, yes, but let's also understand that to watch ANY other professional soccer outside of MLS, you have to fly down to South America or across to Europe on a 7-8 hour flight. They are the only soccer league in North America that is at a certain professional level. Football? you can drive an hour to the US to watch another professional league. So is MLS slowly growing because it's the only option? Might be?


Also, isn't the fact that the CFL has a focus on gate attraction as the lead revenue generation the issue? We know that in Canada, MLS definitely needs that gate revenue because they are way lower in TV viewership. The CFL is way higher in TV viewership, but has the rough places like Toronto for attendance.


Steve Simmons says it perfectly here in this article from a few years back that says "Argos want what TFC has and vice versa"
https://torontosun.com/sports/footba...and-vice-versa



Can we look at MLS in terms of business modeling? YUP! It's already been talked about before, and the question is why hasn't the CFL looked at a model similar to MLS that shares costs and has revenue sharing? Question is, why aren't we looking at what we can do prior to potentially selling out our game, from a business model, marketing, and development standpoint.

[paulwoods13]

It is slowly growing, yes, but let's also understand that to watch ANY other professional soccer outside of MLS, you have to fly down to South America or across to Europe on a 7-8 hour flight. They are the only soccer league in North America that is at a certain professional level. Football? you can drive an hour to the US to watch another professional league. So is MLS slowly growing because it's the only option? Might be?

Yes, it might. But it's not as if all the fans the CFL might have had are going to NFL games in person. TV coverage of Premier League (and other top soccer leagues) is not far off what's available in North America for NFL. I bet there are lots of people in Toronto who follow an EPL team closely, and TFC is their "local" team. I believe there is a group within the CFL that sees that same idea being possible for football in Toronto.

Also, isn't the fact that the CFL has a focus on gate attraction as the lead revenue generation the issue? We know that in Canada, MLS definitely needs that gate revenue because they are way lower in TV viewership. The CFL is way higher in TV viewership, but has the rough places like Toronto for attendance.

All true, but how can the CFL increase its TV (and digital) revenue if it stays as it is now? There's no evidence of international clamour for TV rights fees for CFL, but might there be increased revenue from a partner arrangement with XFL? That's likely being explored closely at the moment.

Question is, why aren't we looking at what we can do prior to potentially selling out our game, from a business model, marketing, and development standpoint.

That implies that the league and its teams have not already been doing exactly that. I find that impossible to believe. What is the path to change the business model and make the league profitable and sustainable? That's exactly what they have to figure out, but I've yet to hear any idea that seems sure to work, and certainly nothing that would disqualify exploration of partnership with the XFL.

[Antwon]

Further to to the single game betting. That would bring added revenue to the CFL in Canada.
Perhaps the discussion with the XFL are more about how to get CFL games in the legalized betting in the US. Maybe some sort of minimum partnership that allows the CFL to keep most of it's rules, but gets them in and a piece of the betting pie.
Betting on football in the US is king and there's a huge void from March to September.

[doubleblue]

Just wondering about all the players being signed this off season, especially many ex-XFL players. It looks to me that the Rock and associates just might be funding the CFL this year as part of a deal for going forward. To keep some of these excess players cut this year would there be something to the idea of keeping a "practice team" around for replacements but also to keep these players in playing condition for next year. The XFL did this last year, with about 40 players with their own Coaches etc. but would be in shape and ready to step in for one of the 8 league teams. Their Head Coach was Bert Andrus, a CFL "veteran Coach". I'm sure Argo fans will remember. Lol

[Bleeds Double Blue]

Their Head Coach was Bert Andrus, a CFL "veteran Coach". I'm sure Argo fans will remember. Lol

Thank you Doubleblue. Years of therapy to get over the Bart Andrus experience and you go and bring him up again. Now I'm back to typing curled up in the fetal position again.

[Argo57]

More food for thought from Chris Cuthbert.

https://3downnation.com/2021/03/12/l...ith-the-devil/

[OV Argo]

Conspiracy theory:

MLSE and especially Larrry NFL wannabe Tannebaum are still really craving a "Major League" NFL franchise and to rid themselves of the dinky little not "world class" CFL (that is losing so much money per year, in about 15 years it could pay for one of the Jay's player salary).

SO - they pretend the CFL needs a saviour/ quick fix and The Rock & co. have already reached out to explore sharing or merger or whatever. Now The Rock is not part of this conspiracy, he's just a "dupe" or "patsy" (as Lee Harvey Oswald called himself before he got shot) - actually likes the CFL and thinks a partnership would work (as long as the CFL gets rid of those quaint little Canadian rules and unfair ratio); but MLSE and Larry see this partnership failing (as all minor pro US leagues always do), but in the meantime, the XFL dupes pony up some ca$h for the CFL to help with some debt there; and MLarrySE know full well that this venture could anger the NFL - who don't like competition for dollars or players - but who previously held off on NFL expansion to Toronto for some respect for the CFL and for it to provide some sort of "buffer" or anti-trust lawsuit protection. Now the gloves are off though, and the XCFL crashes in no time, and even if it doesn't, the NFL is fast making plans for an expansion team in the huge Toronto market - with Larry at the helm.

A soon to be Hollywood production: movie script - to be written by B. McNall, and movie directed by Oliver Stone.

Toronto Argonauts - wrecked in a sea of red ink and sink never to be seen again; but hey, that's what happens when your ship's (business) model is unsound; and change and progress are a good thing.

;o)

[SkalbaniasGhost]

Conspiracy theory:

MLSE and especially Larrry NFL wannabe Tannebaum are still really craving a "Major League" NFL franchise and to rid themselves of the dinky little not "world class" CFL (that is losing so much money per year, in about 15 years it could pay for one of the Jay's player salary).

Toronto Argonauts - wrecked in a sea of red ink and sink never to be seen again; but hey, that's what happens when your ship's (business) model is unsound; and change and progress are a good thing.

;o)

NFL expansion is a strong possibility by 2025.The 2020 losses combined with the pending St.Louis lawsuit could result in the owners pursuing that option.
The NFL OTA media rights are going to be announced sometime in the spring.How much will Bell pay to maintain that relationship? Does Rogers win them?

[OV Argo]

NFL expansion is a strong possibility by 2025.The 2020 losses combined with the pending St.Louis lawsuit could result in the owners pursuing that option.
The NFL OTA media rights are going to be announced sometime in the spring.How much will Bell pay to maintain that relationship? Does Rogers win them?

Wonder if MLarrySE could retain the name Argonauts for a new NFL team ? That would be fantastic !

[argolio]

Conspiracy theory:

MLSE and especially Larrry NFL wannabe Tannebaum are still really craving a "Major League" NFL franchise......

Can't say this hasn't crossed my mind in the last few days.

My optimistic side says this will be mostly a marketing deal, maybe allowing both leagues to share young, developing players.

My skeptical side says this will be a partial or full merger, and we'll lose some or most of our rules.

My cynical side says this is a long-term play to get an NFL team in Toronto.