2021 CFL and Argo Attendance

**1971GreyCup** · 11-02-2021, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by argolio

Probably a carryover of TFC being a "thing" in this town more recently than the Argos.

Ironically, I think the success of the men's national team is hurting TFC.

Nobody believes TFC would sell for anything close to that on the open market.

No question about it. But they have been the beneficiary of large expansion franchise fees. No one would suggest that their franchise value would be near $20m either. However unlikely, there is a potential for massive profits for a successful MLS. The bean counters seem to be banking on it.

It seems to be prestigious enough to put the logo up there with the Maple Leafs, Marlies and Raptors.

**Neely2005** · 11-03-2021, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by RB957

My son's friend worked at MLSE and said they tried to interest season's ticket holders for Leafs/Raptors into purchasing Argos tickets, with very little success. I agree with Will that they should be trying to mine the data they have on ticket buyers but to Angelo's point, it is very difficult with limited staff. Bottom line, you have to spend on marketing and I am not sure how committed MLSE is. For me, the focus should be trying to attract people based on the value proposition... where else can you watch high quality live professional sports for less than $50 per ticket AND get $5 beer? Nowhere. And the weird thing is, we have brought numerous people out, including my son's friends who are in the 25 - 30 year demographic, and every single one of them have said they had a great time... BUT they don't take the initiative or have the interest to come back on their own. This I cannot understand. In a region our size, it has to be possible to attract 20,000 people to become Argo "nutcases".

The Argos will never be able to compete with the Leafs, Jays and Raptors which are considered to be the "elite" sports teams. But TFC was able to attract a very passionate and loyal following for its team. Argos have to figure out how to do the same. Look at Ottawa, where the RedBlacks have managed to attract interest in younger people to come out to games. No reason we can't try to copy things that have worked elsewhere. It will take effort and money, which I hope MLSE is willing to commit. And sad thing, having bought tickets to see the Argos in both Montreal and Ottawa, I get way more emails from them then I ever get from the Argos. And that's not right.

In the long-term, assuming MLSE has the willingness to stay in, the economics have to favour the Argos over TFC. TFC's biggest expense is in $U.S. and their salary budget is over 5x what the Argos is but their TV viewership is brutal. As others have said, now that expansion fees are drying up, reality will sink in regarding that league's economics. I don't think it is a lost cause for the Argos, but while the ship hasn't sunk, it is taking on water.

Now that the Ontario government has lifted seat restrictions at sports venues, we may get a glimpse as to how things really are.

One thing to remember is that TFC plays more games so that gives them more opportunities to sell tickets and concessions.

**Shatto** · 11-03-2021, 06:49 PM

The future success of MLS and TFC will depend upon the league signing a rich TV contract for 2022 on. In 2020 the league was reported to have lost 1B, with only 7 teams making any profit and then only marginally. That was in spite the money coming from expansion fees, which can't go on forever.. The new TV contract is a make or break situation for the league.

**AngeloV** · 11-03-2021, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by Shatto

The future success of MLS and TFC will depend upon the league signing a rich TV contract for 2022 on. In 2020 the league was reported to have lost 1B, with only 7 teams making any profit and then only marginally. That was in spite the money coming from expansion fees, which can't go on forever.. The new TV contract is a make or break situation for the league.

ESPN has the national contract for MLS in the US. Since the start of COVID, working from home, I watch ESPN all day on my IPTV service. I never hear MLS talk on the network with the exception of a mention for an upcoming broadcast. That doesn’t bode well for hopes of a huge TV deal.

**ArgoRavi** · 11-04-2021, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by AngeloV

ESPN has the national contract for MLS in the US. Since the start of COVID, working from home, I watch ESPN all day on my IPTV service. I never hear MLS talk on the network with the exception of a mention for an upcoming broadcast. That doesn’t bode well for hopes of a huge TV deal.

We know in Canada that MLS ratings are miniscule. I suspect it's not much different south of the border.

**Joe Barnes** · 11-08-2021, 05:00 PM

TFC drew around 11,500 for their last game of the season yesterday at BMO. Considering the beautiful weather, I would have expected a bigger crowd. When I flipped over and watched a bit of the game on TSN, there were fans sitting in the upper East side, so the stadium was open to full capacity. Does MLSE open things up a bit for the Argos/Ticats this Friday? Considering it is the biggest game of the season (and Hamilton fans travel), I would think this game could draw at least 15,000, but BMO is currently capped at 12,000, if I recall. The full stadium might not be necessary (though that would be great, if there was demand!!), but at least the 18,000 capacity they used in 2018 and '19. Surely MLSE wouldn't turn people away if ticket sales approached 12,000 by mid-week?

**ArgoRavi** · 11-09-2021, 02:54 PM

What a great interview with the new owner of the BC Lions: https://www.sportsnet.ca/650/halford...nger-audience/

Surely, MLSE can do at least some of the things Doman is talking about.

**Scooter McCray** · 11-10-2021, 11:59 AM

I don't think Bill Manning is a bad guy, but I don't think he should have the huge responsibility of running 2 teams in the MLSE universe. It's too much. Let Pinball become President. He knows what needs to be done and has the passion to make the Argos relevant again in Toronto. Make John Murphy the GM, he already is doing most of the heavy lifting in player personnel.

**AngeloV** · 11-10-2021, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Scooter McCray

I don't think Bill Manning is a bad guy, but I don't think he should have the huge responsibility of running 2 teams in the MLSE universe. It's too much. Let Pinball become President. He knows what needs to be done and has the passion to make the Argos relevant again in Toronto. Make John Murphy the GM, he already is doing most of the heavy lifting in player personnel.

At the time of the restructuring, I felt Pinball basically would be the Argos president without the title. It's obvious Murphy is handling all the real GM duties. The only question is how much power does Pinball have as in his role? Pretty sure he has to run everything through Manning in that regard. It would be great if they made him the official president of the team, but would they give him the same power that Shanahan, Ujiri and Manning have running the Leafs, Raptors and that soccer team?

**Shatto** · 11-10-2021, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Scooter McCray

I don't think Bill Manning is a bad guy, but I don't think he should have the huge responsibility of running 2 teams in the MLSE universe. It's too much. Let Pinball become President. He knows what needs to be done and has the passion to make the Argos relevant again in Toronto. Make John Murphy the GM, he already is doing most of the heavy lifting in player personnel.

Couldn't agree more. We need a full time president who has one and only one role and that being the advocacy of the Argos in every single matter. Manning has always struck me a a TFC president first and foremost and Argos always appear to be an afterthought. That may be untrue but it certainly my perception. Pinball has the personality, experience, drive and public recognition needed.
Making him president of the Argos would be an excellent move an would be well received by Argo fans and the general public. However, it is too sensible a move for MLSE, I expect.

**ArgoGabe22** · 11-10-2021, 04:28 PM

After reading about the ‘91 Grey Cup and I know it’s been discussed with the Jays (cheap beer nights) but I wonder if a “university” section would have any kind of bump in attendance.

**Argos4Life** · 11-10-2021, 07:45 PM

I was just looking on Ticketmaster and there doesn’t seem to be many seats left at all. Hopefully demand will make them open up the entire stadium. Ticketmaster usually isn’t very accurate but hopefully this time it is.

**RB957** · 11-10-2021, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by ArgoRavi

What a great interview with the new owner of the BC Lions: https://www.sportsnet.ca/650/halford...nger-audience/

Surely, MLSE can do at least some of the things Doman is talking about.

I listened to the interview. Doman sounds very passionate and committed, but some of the things he talked about.... tailgating, cheep beer have been tried here and didn't work. I hope he has better success.

Steve Simmon's column in Toronto Sun today deals with this whole issue... the fact that in Toronto, besides the die-hard fans, nobody seems to care about the Argos. He seems to hit the nail on the head, but it is a depressing read.

SIMMONS: The Argonauts can clinch first place in the East on Friday. But does anyone care? | Toronto Sun

**AngeloV** · 11-10-2021, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by RB957

I listened to the interview. Doman sounds very passionate and committed, but some of the things he talked about.... tailgating, cheep beer have been tried here and didn't work. I hope he has better success.

Steve Simmon's column in Toronto Sun today deals with this whole issue... the fact that in Toronto, besides the die-hard fans, nobody seems to care about the Argos. He seems to hit the nail on the head, but it is a depressing read.

SIMMONS: The Argonauts can clinch first place in the East on Friday. But does anyone care? | Toronto Sun

He says what many of us have said for a while. I was on twitter tonight, and compared MLSE ownership of the Argos to Mama Carlson's ownership of WKRP in Cincinnati. When Johnny questioned her desire to change to an all news format guaranteeing a money loser for the next 2 years, she said it's not the plus and minus that matters, it's the plus and plus if the minuses are played correctly. It was suggesting that her overall business portfolio was needing to have a money loser in it (assuming for write off purposes). Maybe MLSE is losing money on the Argos on purpose?

**Shatto** · 11-10-2021, 10:59 PM

The Simmon's article highlights the pitiful job MLSE is doing with the Argos. He talks about "no promotion, little advertising, little selling of the game" "Times it seems MLSE is pushing Argos to some kind of extinction" And to me most telling--"Manning pays little attention to the Argos"

This team needs a face for the organization and that face should be the president. It wouldn't cost MLSE any extra money to move Pinball to president and Murphy to GM and those moves would signal MLSE is serious about the Argos. That assumes, however, MLSE is serious about the Argos.

**Argo57** · 11-11-2021, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by AngeloV

He says what many of us have said for a while. I was on twitter tonight, and compared MLSE ownership of the Argos to Mama Carlson's ownership of WKRP in Cincinnati. When Johnny questioned her desire to change to an all news format guaranteeing a money loser for the next 2 years, she said it's not the plus and minus that matters, it's the plus and plus if the minuses are played correctly. It was suggesting that her overall business portfolio was needing to have a money loser in it (assuming for write off purposes). Maybe MLSE is losing money on the Argos on purpose?

I’m looking forward to the Turkey Drop tomorrow night, I just hope they can fly.
In truth Simmons is spot on with his article, the Argonauts are a pimple on an elephants ass in the world of MLSE and are treated as such.
You wonder how long they have left if things don’t change, apathy is their worst enemy at this point which doesn’t bode well for their future.
Pretty depressing is right!

**SkalbaniasGhost** · 11-11-2021, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Argo57

You wonder how long they have left if things don’t change, apathy is their worst enemy at this point which doesn’t bode well for their future.
Pretty depressing is right!

MLSE has all the time in the world.The Argos(along with the CFL) serve a purpose.2022 will reveal all the answers of how much more usefulness they serve.

**AngeloV** · 11-11-2021, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Argo57

I’m looking forward to the Turkey Drop tomorrow night, I just hope they can fly.
In truth Simmons is spot on with his article, the Argonauts are a pimple on an elephants ass in the world of MLSE and are treated as such.
You wonder how long they have left if things don’t change, apathy is their worst enemy at this point which doesn’t bode well for their future.
Pretty depressing is right!

Of course if my theory of them needing a money loser in the business portfolio is true, then we have nothing to worry about. They will continue to foot the bills for the Argos but we shouldn't expect any real effort on their end to make it the place to be.