2021 CFL and Argo Attendance

[matthew]

Yeah, but; did anybody see that guy who bought the BC Lions waiting in the wings ? Is he some sort of fool for buying a team with weak attendance and fan interest in the huge BC market ?

No he is not a fool he cares about the CFL which many of us on this site have said is what we need. Thank god for people like him, Bob and the consortium in Calgary that keep this all alive. We’d be blessed to have an owner that cares.

[ArgoRavi]

What has the marketing been like for the Argos this year in Toronto? Have there been any notable improvements from past years?

[Treblecharger1]

The biggest issue for most leagues this year has been the lack of group sales along with a wack schedule.It's next impossible to do group sales with the restrictions that are in place. Group Sales and Season ticket sales is the biggest way to get guaranteed butts into seats these days. I don't think MLSE will pull the plug but I do think the league is going to have to consider reworking the TV deal to give rogers a piece of the buy in order to keep that side of ownership happy.

[Mightygoose]

I think too much context is missing when comparing attendance this year to any in recent history.

Both Argos and TFC report based on scanned so capacity restrictions and fully vaxxed only will impact these figures. Notice the last 2 games were the first 2 since that policy went into affect, plus many people ready to come back to large events. Mid week yesterday didn't help...it was actually a bigger crowd than I was expecting....granted I'm setting the bar low this year

TFC hasn't cleared 10K this season either.

[jerrym]

The latest attendance numbers for the CFL. BC is virtually the same average as a month ago although low, Calgary roughly the same, Edmonton down 1,000, Hamilton up a 1,000 because of increased Covid limits, Montreal roughly the same, Ottawa down 3,000+ which a worrying sign for a franchise that was quite healthy for several years but now has a poor on-field product, Saskatchewan down a roughly 1,000 but from the highest average, Toronto down a 1,000, Winnipeg unchanged.

2021 CFL Regular Season Team Attendance Summary

League Average	19,952.5	61.48%	N/A	19,952.5	61.48%	N/A
12,513.0 BC	45.50%	-7,439.5	20,742.5	70.86%	+790.0
24,540.8 Calgary	68.84%	+4,588.3	23,766.3	63.13%	+3,813.8
28,055.3 Edmonton	50.45%	+8,102.8	18,549.0	63.37%	-1,403.5
16,000.0 Hamilton	65.84%	-3,952.5	17,259.8	61.01%	-2,692.7
14,172.0 Montreal	60.49%	-5,780.5	17,414.6	52.07%	-2,537.9
11,875.0 Ottawa	48.16%	-8,077.5	19,550.3	54.51%	-402.2
29,568.6 Sask.	88.66%	+9,616.1	23,750.0	74.09%	+3,797.5
8,528.5 Toronto	31.59%	-11,424.0	21,736.8	68.83%	+1,784.3
26,889.8 Win.	81.43%	+6,937.3	19,662.8	54.82%	-289.7

https://stats.cfldb.ca/league/cfl/attendance/2021/

[ArgoRavi]

The latest attendance numbers for the CFL. BC is virtually the same average as a month ago although low, Calgary roughly the same, Edmonton down 1,000, Hamilton up a 1,000 because of increased Covid limits, Montreal roughly the same, Ottawa down 3,000+ which a worrying sign for a franchise that was quite healthy for several years but now has a poor on-field product, Saskatchewan down a roughly 1,000 but from the highest average, Toronto down a 1,000, Winnipeg unchanged.

2021 CFL Regular Season Team Attendance Summary

League Average	19,952.5	61.48%	N/A	19,952.5	61.48%	N/A
12,513.0 BC	45.50%	-7,439.5	20,742.5	70.86%	+790.0
24,540.8 Calgary	68.84%	+4,588.3	23,766.3	63.13%	+3,813.8
28,055.3 Edmonton	50.45%	+8,102.8	18,549.0	63.37%	-1,403.5
16,000.0 Hamilton	65.84%	-3,952.5	17,259.8	61.01%	-2,692.7
14,172.0 Montreal	60.49%	-5,780.5	17,414.6	52.07%	-2,537.9
11,875.0 Ottawa	48.16%	-8,077.5	19,550.3	54.51%	-402.2
29,568.6 Sask.	88.66%	+9,616.1	23,750.0	74.09%	+3,797.5
8,528.5 Toronto	31.59%	-11,424.0	21,736.8	68.83%	+1,784.3
26,889.8 Win.	81.43%	+6,937.3	19,662.8	54.82%	-289.7

https://stats.cfldb.ca/league/cfl/attendance/2021/

I wouldn't be worried about Ottawa at all. They have 12k season ticket holders but reported 5k to a game at home against Hamilton that was played in miserable weather conditions on a Wednesday night.

Also, the day after that game, fans flooded the airwaves with worries about the Redblacks' QB situation so there is no shortage of interest there.

[Will]

Not much we can do about it right now so I'm not going to be concerned about this (for this season).

[Mightygoose]

Not much we can do about it right now so I'm not going to be concerned about this (for this season).

This is the way I feel too. This year was always going to be bad for attendance and it has been for other sports too.

No one should worry about the state of affairs that no one has control over. Will watch the rest of this season, follow the off season and need to be open minded to whatever happens.

[ArgoZ]

I have a pair of tickets and couldn’t make the Wednesday night game. I also have family that are scared to attend any sports event at the moment. These are more excuses, but compound that by our already less than desirable attendance at the best of times and this is what you get. As mentioned, TFC is drawing less flies (they’re terrible I know).

[AngeloV]

One of my tickets wasn't used as my brother had work commitments. If they are only counting scanned tickets, then the paid attendance may be similar for all games this season, but actual butts in seats going down. I think the Oct 30 game being Saturday at 4pm will be a good indication of where we stand. I think it will be on par with the first 2 games. Not where we want to be, but agree with Will, that MLSE isn't doing anything this year to attract more fans, knowing that the attendance is not going to change. Probably doesn't want to invest in resources for minimal or no gain.

[ArgoZ]

Many keep mentioning 40 years of neglect, however, life was good (at least on the outside) 10 or so years ago during the C and S era. 26 000 was the norm with some 30 000+ crowds, sometimes more for playoffs. What did they do so right? I know there was freebies, but not 20 000 to bring us where we are today. The Argos were definitely more in the spotlight then. Numerous players and the Owner appeared on TSN’s Off the Record show weekly. Bob McCowan talked and had Argos on all the time on the evil 590! It seemed the owners made friends with everyone in the media by treating them to legendary parties. Maybe to also push their own business agenda’s but it seemed to work, no?

[AngeloV]

Many keep mentioning 40 years of neglect, however, life was good (at least on the outside) 10 or so years ago during the C and S era. 26 000 was the norm with some 30 000+ crowds, sometimes more for playoffs. What did they do so right? I know there was freebies, but not 20 000 to bring us where we are today. The Argos were definitely more in the spotlight then. Numerous players and the Owner appeared on TSN’s Off the Record show weekly. Bob McCowan talked and had Argos on all the time on the evil 590! It seemed the owners made friends with everyone in the media by treating them to legendary parties. Maybe to also push their own business agenda’s but it seemed to work, no?

100%

And freebies isn't the worst idea in the world. At the end of the day, you are still selling food and drink and possibly even Argos merch to these people. Seems to me, it would still result in a better bottom line especially with the profit margin that place has on food and drink. It might also help build your base for the future if many of the freebies go to a younger generation.

[Mightygoose]

One of my tickets wasn't used as my brother had work commitments. If they are only counting scanned tickets, then the paid attendance may be similar for all games this season, but actual butts in seats going down. I think the Oct 30 game being Saturday at 4pm will be a good indication of where we stand. I think it will be on par with the first 2 games. Not where we want to be, but agree with Will, that MLSE isn't doing anything this year to attract more fans, knowing that the attendance is not going to change. Probably doesn't want to invest in resources for minimal or no gain.

We couldn't make Wednesday's game either due to other commitments. So that's 3 more not added to the attendance count. Never mind those who don't feel comfortable or ineligible to attend.

Something that's not mentioned much is the capacity restrictions is 30K and 75% which ever is lower. Since the Argos don't sell the upper east side, 75% with social distancing puts their selling capacity around 12K. Scanned is usually a few thousand below sold and distributed so I wouldn't be surprised for the 1st two games, we were close to a 'sellout'.

As strange as this will sound, the Argos don't have much inventory they're allowed to sell right now hence as you say putting in more resources won't pay off too much. Hence MLSE's biggest push was this past Wednesday which is the hardest sell on the schedule....the Tuesday game vs. the Elks will be similar.

[ArgoRavi]

We couldn't make Wednesday's game either due to other commitments. So that's 3 more not added to the attendance count. Never mind those who don't feel comfortable or ineligible to attend.

Something that's not mentioned much is the capacity restrictions is 30K and 75% which ever is lower. Since the Argos don't sell the upper east side, 75% with social distancing puts their selling capacity around 12K. Scanned is usually a few thousand below sold and distributed so I wouldn't be surprised for the 1st two games, we were close to a 'sellout'.

As strange as this will sound, the Argos don't have much inventory they're allowed to sell right now hence as you say putting in more resources won't pay off too much. Hence MLSE's biggest push was this past Wednesday which is the hardest sell on the schedule....the Tuesday game vs. the Elks will be similar.

This all makes sense. Why is the media not reporting this though? Instead, they keep focusing on the "low" attendance figures for the Argos. They never say a word about the lower TFC numbers though.

[Mightygoose]

This all makes sense. Why is the media not reporting this though? Instead, they keep focusing on the "low" attendance figures for the Argos. They never say a word about the lower TFC numbers though.

Yup, it's a sad double standard the Argos have to deal with. Semi off topic, Howard Berger posted a panic piece based on the low crowd (won't post it here but look it up on the CFL News Twitter feed). He completely ignores TFC who are doing worse...says they would fill up BMO if it wasn't for the restrictions, yet are these same restrictions not pushing the Argos number down?

[Will]

The Argonauts must keep some sort of database of former season ticket holders and single-game ticket purchasers.

Are there follow ups done with these individuals?

[AngeloV]

The Argonauts must keep some sort of database of former season ticket holders and single-game ticket purchasers.

Are there follow ups done with these individuals?

That’s asking a lot of the 2 ticket reps they have. Hopefully they will do this when things look better regarding the pandemic and they bring back some bodies from the staff they let go. Let’s face it, Argos are being run bare bones in the back office right now.

[RB957]

The Argonauts must keep some sort of database of former season ticket holders and single-game ticket purchasers.

Are there follow ups done with these individuals?

That’s asking a lot of the 2 ticket reps they have. Hopefully they will do this when things look better regarding the pandemic and they bring back some bodies from the staff they let go. Let’s face it, Argos are being run bare bones in the back office right now.

My son's friend worked at MLSE and said they tried to interest season's ticket holders for Leafs/Raptors into purchasing Argos tickets, with very little success. I agree with Will that they should be trying to mine the data they have on ticket buyers but to Angelo's point, it is very difficult with limited staff. Bottom line, you have to spend on marketing and I am not sure how committed MLSE is. For me, the focus should be trying to attract people based on the value proposition... where else can you watch high quality live professional sports for less than $50 per ticket AND get $5 beer? Nowhere. And the weird thing is, we have brought numerous people out, including my son's friends who are in the 25 - 30 year demographic, and every single one of them have said they had a great time... BUT they don't take the initiative or have the interest to come back on their own. This I cannot understand. In a region our size, it has to be possible to attract 20,000 people to become Argo "nutcases".

The Argos will never be able to compete with the Leafs, Jays and Raptors which are considered to be the "elite" sports teams. But TFC was able to attract a very passionate and loyal following for its team. Argos have to figure out how to do the same. Look at Ottawa, where the RedBlacks have managed to attract interest in younger people to come out to games. No reason we can't try to copy things that have worked elsewhere. It will take effort and money, which I hope MLSE is willing to commit. And sad thing, having bought tickets to see the Argos in both Montreal and Ottawa, I get way more emails from them then I ever get from the Argos. And that's not right.

In the long-term, assuming MLSE has the willingness to stay in, the economics have to favour the Argos over TFC. TFC's biggest expense is in $U.S. and their salary budget is over 5x what the Argos is but their TV viewership is brutal. As others have said, now that expansion fees are drying up, reality will sink in regarding that league's economics. I don't think it is a lost cause for the Argos, but while the ship hasn't sunk, it is taking on water.

Now that the Ontario government has lifted seat restrictions at sports venues, we may get a glimpse as to how things really are.

[paulwoods13]

In the long-term, assuming MLSE has the willingness to stay in, the economics have to favour the Argos over TFC. TFC's biggest expense is in $U.S. and their salary budget is over 5x what the Argos is but their TV viewership is brutal. As others have said, now that expansion fees are drying up, reality will sink in regarding that league's economics.

People have been saying that for a long time. Last I heard, TFC was valued (by Forbes, I think it was) at $650M. It cost MLSE $10M for the franchise. Perhaps the MLS bubble will burst one of these days, but in view of how much bigger international soccer seems to be getting every year in North America, I'm not counting on that.

[ArgoRavi]

People have been saying that for a long time. Last I heard, TFC was valued (by Forbes, I think it was) at $650M. It cost MLSE $10M for the franchise. Perhaps the MLS bubble will burst one of these days, but in view of how much bigger international soccer seems to be getting every year in North America, I'm not counting on that.

The MLS is bearing more and more of a resemblance to the NASL all the time in regards to their over-expansion.

I am a little skeptical about the Forbes valuations but it would be interesting to see how much TFC could fetch on the open market. I suspect the franchise has more value in the US than in Canada though.