Toronto FC

[Neely2005]

How do you define "REAL" attendance?

Butts in the seats. Every TFC game that I've been to has had a Lot (hundreds or thousands) of empty seats but has been announced as a sellout. (I haven't been to a game this season)

[T-Bone]

Butts in the seats. Every TFC game that I've been to has had a Lot of empty seats but has been announced as a sellout. (I haven't been to a game this season)

Than your previous statement makes sense because you don't care about season ticket holder numbers, paid attendance, etc. Plus you turn on your TV in the first minute of a TFC game and declare the place empty.

[Neely2005]

Than your previous statement makes sense because you don't care about season ticket holder numbers, paid attendance, etc. Plus you turn on your TV in the first minute of a TFC game and declare the place empty.

Sorry, didn't mean to upset you. I had forgotten how defensive that you get about TFC.

[T-Bone]

Sorry, didn't mean to upset you. I had forgotten how defensive that you get about TFC.

I'm not upset. I just don't base my assessment of Argos vs. TFC attendance on my perception alone. Probably why many others here including myself can see the Argos attendance issues that you appear to be blind to.

[Neely2005]

I'm not upset. I just don't base my assessment of Argos vs. TFC attendance on my perception alone. Probably why many others here including myself can see the Argos attendance issues that you appear to blind to.

Are you sure? You seem upset enough to dig up a 3 month old post that I made in another Thread in a different Forum. I guess that you just forgot that I created an entire Thread (and posted in it just a couple of weeks ago) about declining Argonauts attendance:

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.p...ar-(2013-2014)

Or perhaps you're just to blind to see that Thread?

I posted this a long time ago, but I think it is appropriate in this thread...


Understanding ICFLHaS

There is a disease stalking the Canadian sports landscape.

A seasonal malady, this mental condition usually spikes in November, but this year’s outbreak has been particularly bad. On bulletin boards, in comments sections, in print and on the airwaves, a small but vocal group of sufferers give voice to their illness: Irrational CFL Hatred Syndrome, commonly known as ICFLHaS (pronounced Ick-Flas).

A strange disease, ICFLHaS has been known to render its victims completely illogical, counter-factual, and frankly, quite sad. Akin to a form of cognitive dissonance, ICFLHaS prevents sufferers from having fun and causes them to become increasingly embittered, confined to their basements watching television while desperately betting on Pro-Line, most cut off from real football experiences.

The core of the illness is its irrationality, examples of which abound: ICFLHaS sufferers are known to deride the CFL because it has nine teams, yet love the NHL’s Original Six era. They hate the fact that the league is “only” Canadian, and therefore not “the best in the world” (though it is clearly the second best football league in the world). Imagine telling a Swede or a Frenchman that they shouldn’t support the Swedish Elite hockey League or the French national soccer league, because it is second rate! Man, those millions that watch and attend Japanese baseball must be insane, given its second best status.

They mock the CFL for having had two teams named “Rough Riders,” yet slavishly follow big-time US college football, especially the 14 team-Southeast Conference— with three teams named Tigers, and two named Bulldogs. They laugh at the idea of Winnipeg having been in the CFL’s East division, ignoring the inconvenient fact that in the NFL, Dallas is in the East and Indianapolis is in the South.

Just as damaging is the ICFLHaS sufferer’s unwillingness to face reality. They refuse to believe that the CFL is the second most-popular sports league in Canada, whose televisions ratings are consistently much higher than all save the NHL; they are desperate to ignore the success of the Grey Cup, the largest annual sporting event in this country (and also to avoid the unpleasant failure of the NFL in Toronto, too), and the growth, stability and success of the CFL in recent years.

Perhaps the most virulent strain of ICFLHaS can be found among certain Canadian sports “journalists,” many of whom are actually paid stenographers of media-sports conglomerates. They continually point to the past financial problems in the CFL, ignoring the failures of the NHL (Phoenix, Atlanta, etc.), the NFL (how’s that NFL Europe working out?), or the NBA (where are the Vancouver Grizzlies?).

These jock-sniffers, who are so desperate to be close to professional sports that they became “journalists,” mock CFL players and their salaries as second rate and not good enough for the NFL, yet don’t realize that they themselves are—at best –second-tier journalists in North America—none of them write for the New York Times or work for ESPN. They are, without realizing it, the CFLers of the sports media world—could that be the cause of their ICFLHaS?

Thankfully, for most ICFLHaS sufferers, there is a cure: Fun. The great thing about the CFL and its fans is that they are in it for the fun. Sport is a form of entertainment, and the CFL provides some of the best sports entertainment in North America—genuine, real, sports entertainment. Now, if we could only get these ICFLHaS sufferers out of their basements and get them to a CFL game, they might just be able to cure themselves of this disease. After all, hating the CFL is as bizarre as hating Tim Horton’s, or curling, or maple syrup, or junior hockey or…

Lol, this disease seems to be spreading!

[T-Bone]

Are you sure? You seem upset enough to dig up a 3 month old post that I made in another Thread in a different Forum. I guess that you just forgot that I created an entire Thread (and posted in it just a couple of weeks ago) about declining Argonauts attendance:

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.p...ar-(2013-2014)

Or perhaps you're just to blind to see that Thread?

My apologies. You're only blind to TFC attendance figures than. You've made several claims about TFC attendance around here (most of which I ignored and didn't reply to) outside of the one example I specifically remembered and posted. All I'm saying is be factual with your statements because if you added to your criteria of "REAL" attendance you would know this statement is false.

Funny how TFC gets similar REAL attendance

Lol, this disease seems to be spreading!

Are you claiming that I hate the CFL?

[Neely2005]

My apologies. You're only blind to TFC attendance figures than. You've made several claims about TFC attendance around here (most of which I ignored and didn't reply to) outside of the one example I specifically remembered and posted. All I'm saying is be factual with your statements because if you added to your criteria of "REAL" attendance you would know this statement is false.



Are you claiming that I hate the CFL?

I've been to numerous TFC games and every single one that I've been to was announced as a sellout despite having hundreds or (usually) thousands of empty seats so my statement is not false.

No I'm not claiming that you hate the CFL. I'm not even sure how my 2 posts got lumped together as I responded to them separately.

[AngeloV]

I've been to numerous TFC games and every single one that I've been to was announced as a sellout despite having hundreds or (usually) thousands of empty seats so my statement is not false.

No I'm not claiming that you hate the CFL. I'm not even sure how my 2 posts got lumped together as I responded to them separately.

Hundreds of corporate seats go unused for most non Leafs sporting events in this city. If the ticket is sold or distributed it counts towards attendance. I mean, the Argos had no problem announcing 17k last year against Calgary, when there were MAX 10k in he building. I remember it well, because Boy did I rant about it on here. In my 200 level seat on the visitor side, I can look down below and see rows upon rows of empty seats in the 100 level, as well as sections of empty seats to my left in the 200 level. That was the worst I had seen it since perhaps the last game John Huard coached.

[T-Bone]

Hundreds of corporate seats go unused for most non Leafs sporting events in this city. If the ticket is sold or distributed it counts towards attendance. I mean, the Argos had no problem announcing 17k last year against Calgary, when there were MAX 10k in he building. I remember it well, because Boy did I rant about it on here. In my 200 level seat on the visitor side, I can look down below and see rows upon rows of empty seats in the 100 level, as well as sections of empty seats to my left in the 200 level. That was the worst I had seen it since perhaps the last game John Huard coached.

Something tells me Neely2005 sees more empty seats at TFC games than at Argos games because that's what he wants to see. I'm not saying there are not empty seats at TFC games but ultimately if you include other factors outside of just a visual glance (season ticket holder numbers, paid attendance, etc.) it appears TFC is doing better with attendance.

I honestly hope with the Argos moving to BMO Field next year the attendance will improve. The move alone will create a bump but I really hope the new Argos owners have an advertising camping ready or in the works for next season. I don't think the move alone will sell out BMO Field, they need to do more. I thought they would try to sell season tickets for this year with the incentive of first in at BMO Field but that doesn't look like it is happening. I figured with the real home opener being so late the extra lead time would have been good for that type of campaign. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what they have planned.

[Rocket22]

Forbes MLS valuation just came out and TFC seems to be losing around $7 mil a year. That's not really a surprise when you have a player payroll of over $18 million. It seems Altidore has been a huge waste of money, today's game notwithstanding. TFC can get close to the break even mark by simply getting rid of this one guy.

Link: http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmi...-teams-2015-2/

Forbes still valued TFC at $175 million, above the average MLS team value of $157 mil.

That influx of talent has been made possible by team owners willing to spend, and spend big. Those investments, which have ranged from mere player salaries to massive soccer stadiums, have led to rising attendance, TV viewership and, most importantly, revenue. The average team is now worth $157 million, up 52% from when we last looked at the league two years ago.

16 of the league’s 20 teams are slated to be in a stadium purpose-built for soccer within the next three years. This season the San Jose Earthquakes, now worth $146 million, jumped from their longtime home at Santa Clara’s Buck Shaw Stadium to the team-owned Avaya Stadium; per-game attendance is up 75% so far this season. D.C. United ($140 million) has secured stadium plans of its own, and should be able to move out of 54-year-old RFK Stadium by the 2018 season. Both teams are now worth nearly twice as much

The three games aired on ESPN’s flagship network thus far have averaged 382,000 viewers, up 40% from comparable games in 2013, when the channel averaged 271,000 viewers per MLS broadcast. Viewership of games on Univision’s UniMas is up 13% from 2014, while the shift from NBC to Fox has also resulted in a serious upswing: Games on Fox Sports 1 are averaging 232,000 viewers this season, up a staggering 65% from the 141,000-viewer audience that a typical game on NBCSN drew last season.
What’s more, the league’s broadcast partners also simulcast their games on Spanish broadcast channels, helping to boost those viewership numbers. The LA Galaxy’s recent 3-1 win over Seattle was the season’s most-watched match, drawing a TV audience of 549,000 viewers on ESPN – and another 183,000 on ESPN Deportes.

Year - Average Team Value
2008 - $37 million
2013 - $103 million
2015 - $157 million

Note:
1. All this is based on the 2014 MLS season. The new TV and couple of new sponsorship deals (that will pay 3 times more money in total than in 2014) had not kicked in yet until the 2015 season.

2. Red Bulls' $9 million loss is very misleading. The team is owned by the energy drink company that decided not to sell the jersey-front space and the stadium naming rights but are using that to market their own drinks/company. An average MLS team receives around $4 million from these 2 revenue sources while a big market team like NY, LA etc. can earn over $6 million per year. Red Bull GmbH is likely showing an adverting expense of similar amount in their book while the soccer team is not showing any of those revenues in their book because "they don't have any". It's just moving money around from one pocket to another; that's all. BTW, they no longer have Henry on payroll and are now actually one of the least spending teams in the league. Their attendance has not suffered but is actually up around 5% from 2014. They should easily be in the black this year.

2013 Valuation: http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmi...aluable-teams/
2008 Valuation: http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/09/mls...mlsvalues.html

[Gill The Thrill]

$157 million ...hahahahahaha...what a joke? Totally misleading, and those TV ratings in the United States of America with a population of over 300 million is also nothing to write home about. Those viewership numbers would barely be acceptable CFL viewers in a Canadian market which is 10X less than an American viewership based on population. Divide those 332,000 or whatever by 10 to make up for the difference in population to find the per capita share and those numbers are laughable...that 332,000 viewers would be equivalent to 33,200 national viewers in Canada based on per capita and that would be considered very disappointing.

Sure the MLS is making news headlines by signing what were great European players on the downside of their careers, and that's being nice. For all intents and purposes they're over the hill or even worse, washed up. This big splash and the press conference may gain short-term headlines, but in the long-term, they are falling into all the trappings of what killed the North American Soccer League in the early 1980's. I could swear the pattern is repeating itself. Player development is starting to take a back seat to signing designated players from European leagues who are vastly overpaid for what they can contribute in Europe today. The sad thing is that some are being very productive which is good and bad. Good because the team gets some hype and value in the short-term, but potentially and equally as bad because in the long-term it furthers the perception that the calibre of the MLS is not getting better and is still a far, far, cry when a designated player from Europe who's slowing down is still the most valuable. TFC has the best of these signings because Giovinco is very young and still in his peak, but the other guys are usually well into their 30's, would not be first teamers with big clubs and have retired from national team play when they would have been can't miss national team players in their 20's.

This is the problem that the New York Cosmos had when Pele, Chinaglia and Beckenbauer finally retired for good. Those 60,000 fans at Giants stadium became 15,000 and the team could no longer operate because of losses and they weren't the only ones. Sure, the big difference is the soccer specific stadiums that are being made today, but if the MLS becomes the NASL in that it becomes a place for former European greats to finish their career, then that may do nothing to develop the players and the perception of the league in the future.

Expanding to too many markets is another mistake that the NASL made, that is being repeated by the MLS. Short term gain, teams get expansion team money, but in the long term expanding too much and too quickly severely dilutes the skill level of the product. I remember when MLS did not want any connection to the history of the NASL at all, to the point of not allowing expansion teams to use their popular NASL team names, yet in Cascadia, all the teams used their NASL team names. Vancouver, Seattle and Portland have all brought back their NASL names in the Whitecaps, Sounders and Timbers respectively. Sure soccer is very popular in that part of North America, but did these teams and markets not also go bankrupt when they were in the NASL? The NASL Whitecaps had a young Peter Beardsly and signed him to a huge contract only to go bankrupt within a few more years...I wonder if that can happen again?

Lastly, this is the same MLS that did get into some trouble early in their existence and saw the league take ownership of all the teams, just so owners would not go wild competing to sign up older popular European players to big contracts which they could not sustain. The teams are not owned by the league anymore, and the owners are showing those same habits that they could not sustain in the old NASL. $157 million a franchise sounds good, but is it really worth that much if their value is so hitched to their designated imports.

[T-Bone]

vs.

MLS Regular Season: Matchday #25
Saturday, August 29, 2015. 4:00pm EDT.
BMO Field. Toronto, ON.

TV: TSN
Video Webcast: TSN Go - MLS Live
Radio: TSN 1050
Audio Webcast: Here

Tickets Available: Here or at the BMO Field Gate 1 Box Office Monday to Friday from 10am-6pm and on Gamedays until the start of the second half.

Match Preview: Here

Post-Match Update:

Match Recap

Final Score: 2-1

[T-Bone]

Browsing my Facebook feed today and two very different stories came up. There is this one. I can tell you one city this poor new hire is going to have a hard time selling this "global brand." And there is this one. Man, I'm bloody happy with they way things have worked out so far.

[Gill The Thrill]

Browsing my Facebook feed today and two very different stories came up. There is this one. I can tell you one city this poor new hire is going to have a hard time selling this "global brand." And there is this one. Man, I'm bloody happy with they way things have worked out so far.

I have to admit Giovinco is the only reason I follow this team. The best designated player signing in the MLS as they are picking him up at his peak in his late 20's and not at 35. Altidore and Bradley have good experience and it shows on the field as they are all a cut above the rest. Although I'm not much of a Bradley fan based on his World Cup play with the USA and his pro experience in Europe, I think he's overated. In reality, I think Giovinco should be playing in Europe, specifically in Italy for Juve,(sure could've used him in the Champions' League Final) but they've decided to give other players more playing time. Wouldn't doubt if a European team from another league such as the Dutch or French league looking for a dynamic player that can create plays looks to bring him in on a transfer. The excess playing time can only help showcase his skills as he was being underutilized as a specialist coming off the bench with Juve.

[T-Bone]

I have to admit Giovinco is the only reason I follow this team. The best designated player signing in the MLS as they are picking him up at his peak in his late 20's and not at 35. Altidore and Bradley have good experience and it shows on the field as they are all a cut above the rest. Although I'm not much of a Bradley fan based on his World Cup play with the USA and his pro experience in Europe, I think he's overated. In reality, I think Giovinco should be playing in Europe, specifically in Italy for Juve,(sure could've used him in the Champions' League Final) but they've decided to give other players more playing time. Wouldn't doubt if a European team from another league such as the Dutch or French league looking for a dynamic player that can create plays looks to bring him in on a transfer. The excess playing time can only help showcase his skills as he was being underutilized as a specialist coming off the bench with Juve.

I'm sure other clubs will come knocking but why would you rather see him go back to Juventus than play out his 5 year contract here? I hope he gets called up to the Italian national team again but on the club level I hope he remains here. He has been amazing for TFC and he is nothing but good for the league. As well, I personally like Bradley. He is work horse and the same age as Giovinco. I said it back when we signed him along with Judas (Defoe) that he was probably the better acquisition.

You can't forget Michael Bradley. At 26, a US national team player at the peak of his career is probably the better acquisition as we hopefully will get his best years out of him.

Also, Altidore seems to be hitting his stride and I think he has been a good addition. We still need some work on the back line but otherwise this a pretty solid squad.

[T-Bone]

vs.

MLS Regular Season: Matchday #26
Saturday, September 5, 2015. 10:00pm EDT.
CenturyLink Field. Seattle, WA.

TV: TSN2
Video Webcast: TSN Go - MLS Live
Radio: TSN 1050
Audio Webcast: Here

Match Preview: Here

Post-Match Update:

Match Recap

Final Score: 2-1

[T-Bone]

vs.

MLS Regular Season: Matchday #27
Sunday, September 13, 2015. 5:00pm EDT.
BMO Field. Toronto, ON.

TV: Sportsnet 360
Video Webcast: Sportsnet Now - MLS Live
Radio: N/A
Audio Webcast: N/A

Tickets Available: Here or at the BMO Field Gate 1 Box Office Monday to Friday from 10am-6pm and on Gamedays until the start of the second half.

Match Preview: Here

Post-Match Update:

Match Recap

Final Score: 1-3

[T-Bone]

vs.

MLS Regular Season: Matchday #28
Wednesday, September 16, 2015. 7:30pm EDT.
Yankee Stadium. New York City, NY.

TV: TSN
Video Webcast: TSN Go - MLS Live
Radio: TSN 1050
Audio Webcast: Here

Match Preview: Here

Post-Match Update:

Match Recap

Final Score: 2-0

[Gill The Thrill]

This is still not a complete team. You asked me why I'd like Giovinco to be with Juve several weeks ago?... because they are my European team and they had his rights for years as Torino, the city they play in is his hometown. I don't blame him for coming over for the bucks MLSE is giving him, as he could also live a lot more anonymously in Canada, then he can in Italy where being a pro soccer player is as intrusive to your privacy as being an NHL player in Canada. I have to admit I think he is too good for this league, which has few near his skill level on a consistent basis. You'll get some guys with good games, but not have them game in and game out. Bradley for example is regarded as one of the better midfielders in MLS, but that giveaway near the box looked terrible yesterday. It's the type of giveaway that would see your ass glued to the bench in Europe as those leagues are extremely competitive.

That being said, I feel fortunate to see the formica atomica (atomic ant) playing live at his peak with plenty of room to show off his skills while being productive. I hope he wins the MVP of the MLS this year and can get TFC some success.

I don't think they have the depth as a team for winning a championship even if it is MLS. The defence is really porous. Look at Damien Perquis for instance, this poor guy tries his heart out, but he is just not very good as a central defender as he scored an own goal yesterday. His touch is always precarious near the box and he's always around when their giving up goals, either because he could not control a ball or just can't mark a guy properly.

[T-Bone]

vs.

MLS Regular Season: Matchday #29
Saturday, September 19, 2015. 2:00pm EDT.
BMO Field. Toronto, ON.

TV: TSN1/4
Video Webcast: TSN Go - MLS Live
Radio: N/A
Audio Webcast: N/A

Tickets Available: Here or at the BMO Field Gate 1 Box Office Monday to Friday from 10am-6pm and on Gamedays until the start of the second half.

Match Preview: Here

Post-Match Update:

Match Recap

Final Score: 3-1