July 27th 2012: Toronto Argonauts vs. Montreal Alouettes

[paulwoods13]

Mann and Rambo are waiting in the wings.

And are imports.

I predict Watt doesn't get replaced at any point this season by an import (unless he gets hurt, and even then I doubt his spot would be filled by an import). An o-lineman might lose his job to an import, but Watt won't. IMO.

[OV Argo]

I agree Paul - as you pointed out - Watt is playing wide-side WR - a position often lately held by NI receivers and often the last look / rarely thrown to in CFL offences; he has some decent speed and has shown at least some ability thus far in the CFL; IF he starts dropping all sorts of passes when they go his way - THEN - maybe time to bench him and give somebody else a try; but i think the coaches are happy with him thus far in his role. I guess somebody could argue that the Argo O and passing game is just great this year, so Watt as a little used NI wide-side WR is working out fine - so why complain?

I'd have like to have seen the Argos acquire some better NI (and import too for that matter) receiving talent over the past while, but what they have now in the corps is doing OK and hardly a problem area on the team IMO. Like to see Bradwell get some more playing time, but it hasn't gone that way; and IMO this Argo brain-trust is showing pretty pencilled-in thinking CFL stuff = hardly a surprise = they're thinking is 5 NI O-linemen + Durie + Watt on O; and then just Foley on D; don't seem to have much faith in any other NIs for playing time. A lot of CFL teams this season thus far have been playing extra NIs on both O & D, including a number of their draft picks from the past couple of seasons; Argos young NIs aren't getting much playing time - maybe they don't have much faith in them or a sign of poor drafting (I'd go with both factors); Argos seem like the only CFL team now to give playing time to just one NI (Foley) on D - but hey, the D is doing OK - no need for dem NI types.

[Nob]

OV - I wonder what will happen to Pottinger? I think he is now just a special teamer. McCune has done a very good job in there and I don't think that Pottinger will take it back unless McCune gets injured. Ditto for Bouley, sort of.... I would have been quite happy with him at safety, but you can't take Younger out of there.

Again, if we needed to alter the ratio for whatever reason I think it would be a killer. The Can-con isn't there.

[OV Argo]

OV - I wonder what will happen to Pottinger? I think he is now just a special teamer. McCune has done a very good job in there and I don't think that Pottinger will take it back unless McCune gets injured. Ditto for Bouley, sort of.... I would have been quite happy with him at safety, but you can't take Younger out of there.

Again, if we needed to alter the ratio for whatever reason I think it would be a killer. The Can-con isn't there.

Starters are one thing - but to show zero faith in your young or back-up NIs in terms of playing time on O or D - is another.

Maybe Pottinger is still nicked, but he I haven't seem him in on D at all; same for Tristan Black; McCune is a tough, athletic player but hardly a superstar who absolutely has to play every down; and the Argos seem to have no use for NI D-linemen other than Foley, or NI DBs (seen Matt Black in maybe a couple of plays thus far?) Meanhwile - i see pretty well all other CFL teams getting some of their young or back-up NIs some playing time on D - even as situational or rotation players (eg, Bomber this year's draft pick - DT Jake Thomas - made a key strip on Jyles to get the win last game - Greg Alexandre rated ZERO playing time on the Argos D-Line all of last season and gets cut this year - i guess cause the import starters are such every down superstars; or the Riders playing guys like MCullough, Butler, Woldu or Hurl on their D in addition to starters Shologan or Williams.

I`d agree - big-time - that the Argos could use to upgrade their NI talent and do better in the draft - but all teams should be looking to upgrade their talent - NI or import - every year. The attitude towards NI talent on your roster is another matter. But maybe Cleon Laing is a guy who gets to play if he shows up next year - i would hope so for a top draft pick; or maybe Tyler Holmes if he shows up too; hey - maybe Greenwood could be a fine special teamer for the Argos if he gets cut from the NFL.

[ArgoRavi]

Regarding the Argos and their last three drafts, they have three players in the NFL including Reinders, Greenwood and Holmes and at least two others in the NCAA including Laing and Willson. Three other non-import receivers - Kouame, Feoli-Gudino and Hurst - are injured. We won't truly be able to judge these last three drafts for some time yet. Keep in mind though that Eppele and Watt are presently starters while Grant Shaw was part of the reason why we have one of the top QBs in the league today. Zander Robinson is also a key player on special teams.

[paulwoods13]

Maybe Pottinger is still nicked, but he I haven't seem him in on D at all; same for Tristan Black; McCune is a tough, athletic player but hardly a superstar who absolutely has to play every down; and the Argos seem to have no use for NI D-linemen other than Foley, or NI DBs (seen Matt Black in maybe a couple of plays thus far?)

...

Greg Alexandre rated ZERO playing time on the Argos D-Line all of last season and gets cut this year

Pottinger is still on the IR -- I don't think he has dressed for a game yet this season. Matt Black has been in the secondary a lot more often than you think, both at safety when Younger moved to corner to replace an injured player and as a sixth DB on passing downs. Alexandre is a free agent now and as far as I know no other team has offered him a tryout (not even Hamilton, which for ratio reasons could really use another NI d-lineman) so I guess the good ol' boys all agree with the Argos about his potential or lack thereof.

[paulwoods13]

Regarding the Argos and their last three drafts, they have three players in the NFL including Reinders, Greenwood and Holmes and at least two others in the NCAA including Laing and Willson. Three other non-import receivers - Kouame, Feoli-Gudino and Hurst - are injured. We won't truly be able to judge these last three drafts for some time yet. Keep in mind though that Eppele and Watt are presently starters while Grant Shaw was part of the reason why we have one of the top QBs in the league today. Zander Robinson is also a key player on special teams.

Great points, Ravi. Rating the last two drafts at this point -- one took place 15 months ago and the other just three months ago -- is foolhardy. And even if we got nothing but Grant Shaw from the 2010 draft, it would have been a great draft because it ultimately brought us Ricky Ray.

[OV Argo]

Pottinger is still on the IR -- I don't think he has dressed for a game yet this season. Matt Black has been in the secondary a lot more often than you think, both at safety when Younger moved to corner to replace an injured player and as a sixth DB on passing downs. Alexandre is a free agent now and as far as I know no other team has offered him a tryout (not even Hamilton, which for ratio reasons could really use another NI d-lineman) so I guess the good ol' boys all agree with the Argos about his potential or lack thereof.

I'm pretty sure i saw Pottinger dressed and on the sideline at least one game; so are you maintaining he must still be hurt/nicked and that is why he hasn't played?

And BTW - love that snappy comeback about Alexandre - that always cracks me up: player x gets cut and no other teams have signed him, so it's some incredible, irrefutable proof that the guy is a no-talent bum, as all the football genius gawds who run the CFL NRVER miss out on any players ... like Mike Pringle, who was cut from a couple of teams and bounced around as a free agent for all teams to sign before getting a real shot to play and becoming an all-time great; and Andre Durie or Robb Bagg or Burk Dales, for example - were not drafted at all by any of the all-knowing CFL super-scouts - so I could assume after their draft days that they just had no "potential" ? - hi-larious.

[paulwoods13]

I'm pretty sure i saw Pottinger dressed and on the sideline at least one game; so are you maintaining he must still be hurt/nicked and that is why he hasn't played?

And BTW - love that snappy comeback about Alexandre - that always cracks me up: player x gets cut and no other teams have signed him, so it's some incredible, irrefutable proof that the guy is a no-talent bum, as all the football genius gawds who run the CFL NRVER miss out on any players ... like Mike Pringle, who was cut from a couple of teams and bounced around as a free agent for all teams to sign before getting a real shot to play and becoming an all-time great; and Andre Durie or Robb Bagg or Burk Dales, for example - were not drafted at all by any of the all-knowing CFL super-scouts - so I could assume after their draft days that they just had no "potential" ? - hi-larious.

Pottinger might have dressed for one game, but if so I don't think he played much. I seem to recall reading that he aggravated his injury early in the season, either in a game or practice. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, yes, I think he is actually injured. He's a better LB and special teams player than Kyle Jones, IMO, so if he was 100% I believe he'd be dressing. I'm sure you have a theory to the contrary, tho.

As for Alexandre, the fact is you have been touting his great potential since he arrived last season, and now two coaching staffs found him wanting and seven other staffs have passed as well. You are absolutely right that good players sometimes slip through the cracks, and that good personnel people sometimes make mistakes. And I personally saw some potential in Alexandre during the home preseason game this year. But I would bet he will not turn out to be a starter in this league, and in all likelihood he will not be heard from again. He's no Rob Bagg or Mike Pringle, IMO. The beauty of arguing your position is that you basically can never be proven wrong. As long as the guy is out of the league, you can keep arguing that he was a player and it's only because the league is full of good ol' boys that he's not being given a chance. And there is no way to prove it one way or the other, unless he somehow actually gets into a game and either excels or not.

[ArgoRavi]

I am pretty sure that Pottinger dressed for the home opener and that he is indeed still battling an injury. I seem to recall reading recently that he will be back in the lineup soon though - perhaps for the B.C. game?

[OV Argo]

Pottinger might have dressed for one game, but if so I don't think he played much. I seem to recall reading that he aggravated his injury early in the season, either in a game or practice. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, yes, I think he is actually injured. He's a better LB and special teams player than Kyle Jones, IMO, so if he was 100% I believe he'd be dressing. I'm sure you have a theory to the contrary, tho.

As for Alexandre, the fact is you have been touting his great potential since he arrived last season, and now two coaching staffs found him wanting and seven other staffs have passed as well. You are absolutely right that good players sometimes slip through the cracks, and that good personnel people sometimes make mistakes. And I personally saw some potential in Alexandre during the home preseason game this year. But I would bet he will not turn out to be a starter in this league, and in all likelihood he will not be heard from again. He's no Rob Bagg or Mike Pringle, IMO. The beauty of arguing your position is that you basically can never be proven wrong. As long as the guy is out of the league, you can keep arguing that he was a player and it's only because the league is full of good ol' boys that he's not being given a chance. And there is no way to prove it one way or the other, unless he somehow actually gets into a game and either excels or not.

And the beauty of your position is that you can claim any player who got ZERO opportunity to play in a reg. season game - to show something - is simply "not good enough" - just because your fave experts running your team didn't play him, or cut him - no actual on field proof required. Same sort of thing. I like on field proof to believe a player isn't good enough to play for a particular team; until then - maybe the guy has/had potential or could of made an impact for team x or y, or maybe not.

[paulwoods13]

And the beauty of your position is that you can claim any player who got ZERO opportunity to play in a reg. season game - to show something - is simply "not good enough" - just because your fave experts running your team didn't play him, or cut him - no actual on field proof required. Same sort of thing. I like on field proof to believe a player isn't good enough to play for a particular team; until then - maybe the guy has/had potential or could of made an impact for team x or y, or maybe not.

Ah, but you see I am not claiming Alexandre is "not good enough." I'd have liked to see more of what he could do, based on how he looked in the preseason. But I am claiming that none of the coaches in the entire league seem to believe he's good enough. And since they know more about football than I do (something I view as self-evident; I suspect you take a different view), I'm prepared to bow to their wisdom. (I can just imagine what you think of that!)

Good NI DTs ain't easy to find and can be incredibly valuable (cf. Doug Brown, Scott Schultz, Adriano Belli, etc.) so if Alexandre had as much as you believe he has, I can't see why he wouldn't have got a shot somewhere by now. I know, because they're all good ol' boys who pencil in (and out) guys, right?

The other problem with your stance is that it is physically impossible for every player to get a shot on the field in a meaningful game. For tons of guys, preseason is the only chance they get. Alexandre had a whole year on the practice roster to impress coaches enough for a roster shot, and he apparently failed to do so. Lots of guys have worked up from the PR to the game roster and ended up playing significant roles. He wasn't one of them, at least not up to this point.

[Wobbler]

Alexandre was a 5th round pick, the 8th DL-man taken in 2011, and plays a position not well suited for ST contribution. As such, he probably had a <10% chance of making the active roster. Remind me again why we should be surprised that he didn't make it?

[OV Argo]

Ah, but you see I am not claiming Alexandre is "not good enough." I'd have liked to see more of what he could do, based on how he looked in the preseason. But I am claiming that none of the coaches in the entire league seem to believe he's good enough. And since they know more about football than I do (something I view as self-evident; I suspect you take a different view), I'm prepared to bow to their wisdom. (I can just imagine what you think of that!)

Good NI DTs ain't easy to find and can be incredibly valuable (cf. Doug Brown, Scott Schultz, Adriano Belli, etc.) so if Alexandre had as much as you believe he has, I can't see why he wouldn't have got a shot somewhere by now. I know, because they're all good ol' boys who pencil in (and out) guys, right?

The other problem with your stance is that it is physically impossible for every player to get a shot on the field in a meaningful game. For tons of guys, preseason is the only chance they get. Alexandre had a whole year on the practice roster to impress coaches enough for a roster shot, and he apparently failed to do so. Lots of guys have worked up from the PR to the game roster and ended up playing significant roles. He wasn't one of them, at least not up to this point.

Argo D-Linemen like Wroten, Buzbee, Armstead, Summers and Cohen all have got handed playing time in the past couple of seasons for the Argos- i don't exactly see a Stillwagon or Bruce Clark amongst them; i bet you could guess what they have on their resumes that Alexandre (or Robinson or Pierre-Etienne) don't though. You keep talking about "good ole boys" but funny I haven't made any mention of whatever that is in this discussion - like putting words in others' thoughts?. And BTW IMO - Mike Philbrick was one of the best NI DTs in the CFL from the past few decades - he got let go by Ottawa who had drafted him but not played him; and then eventually emerged as a CFL D-Line force when the Ticats gave him a shot to play later. Obie and the super D-line rich Ticats had Bekasiak but thought he should play O_line maybe instead (more suited for dem big Canadian boys maybe); they got rid of him and now IMO he is a very solid CFL DT for the Als when they gave him a shot to play. And this year's mid-round draft pick DT - Jake Thomas - is getting some playing time on a good Bomber D. NIs just can't grade out for playing time on this superb Argo D-line though i guess (outside of Foley - who was signed as a FA after he had established himself as a top D player on another CFL team).

And of course the expert coaches or personnel guys in the CFL know wayyyyyy more about football than any of us know nothing couch potato fans; remind me of the point of these type forums again?

[Wobbler]

Finally, back to Watt. Wobbler's stats suggest that we are not below par at this position, but we are not leading the way by any stretch of imagination. To think that we can't do better than 3 catches for 25 yards a game (and those are the stats) is accepting excuses. This is pro ball. Results count.

I fully agree that we should never stop looking for ways to improve the team at every position. At the start of the season I was advocating a Mann-for-Watt roster change, at least as an opportunity to evaluate Mann. Part of the problem with that (as Paul has pointed out) is that wide-side WR is a lonely spot. Appropriately so, I think. I'd still like to see Mann (and eventually Rambo) activated for a look, but it would have to be as a part-timer at a more productive position. And wouldn't you know, Chandler Williams has looked excellent in spot duty at SB. We have more good receivers than we can use, but the starters have done a pretty good job in their roles. The most vulnerable is Barnes, IMHO; he hasn't been *bad*, but he needs to pick it up. He has been a bit unlucky, but half Owens' yardage? Vulnerable.

[gilthethrill]

So, if the wide side receiver spot is a lonely one, does that mean the wide side CB spot is lonely too? Could Matt Black not handle that assignment well in order to start another import elsewhere, perhaps OL Tony Washington in place of Wayne Smith if he is unable to play Monday?

[paulwoods13]

So, if the wide side receiver spot is a lonely one, does that mean the wide side CB spot is lonely too? Could Matt Black not handle that assignment well in order to start another import elsewhere, perhaps OL Tony Washington in place of Wayne Smith if he is unable to play Monday?

I think that is a viable option for sure, altho I'm reluctant to muck around too much with the defence. Now that Boulay is on board we have a backup DB if Black were to start. A more likely scenario, tho, IMO, is to sit an import d-lineman for Washington or whoever at OT.

[paulwoods13]

Argo D-Linemen like Wroten, Buzbee, Armstead, Summers and Cohen all have got handed playing time in the past couple of seasons for the Argos- i don't exactly see a Stillwagon or Bruce Clark amongst them; i bet you could guess what they have on their resumes that Alexandre (or Robinson or Pierre-Etienne) don't though.

Surely you are not suggesting that Alexandre et al ARE Stillwagon/Clark reborn? Regardless, you are definitely implying that Wroten et al got playing time for one reason only -- their birth certificate. If you are comfortable with that, so be it.

You keep talking about "good ole boys" but funny I haven't made any mention of whatever that is in this discussion - like putting words in others' thoughts?

"Whatever that is" -- nice one. I'm guilty as charged, I guess, but then again . . .

And of course the expert coaches or personnel guys in the CFL know wayyyyyy more about football than any of us know nothing couch potato fans

Does that count?

[flafson]

The Argos published on Facebook a clip of the cheerleaders travelling to Montreal. So everyone that was wondering if those were our cheerleaders in the last game, they were.

[doubleblue]

I fully agree that we should never stop looking for ways to improve the team at every position. At the start of the season I was advocating a Mann-for-Watt roster change, at least as an opportunity to evaluate Mann. Part of the problem with that (as Paul has pointed out) is that wide-side WR is a lonely spot. Appropriately so, I think. I'd still like to see Mann (and eventually Rambo) activated for a look, but it would have to be as a part-timer at a more productive position. And wouldn't you know, Chandler Williams has looked excellent in spot duty at SB. We have more good receivers than we can use, but the starters have done a pretty good job in their roles. The most vulnerable is Barnes, IMHO; he hasn't been *bad*, but he needs to pick it up. He has been a bit unlucky, but half Owens' yardage? Vulnerable.

Chandler Williams really caught my eye with his catch and run last game. He looks like a good one to me. Don't know why they are taking so long breaking him into the lineup, maybe he wasn't in game shape yet. I believe they brought him in late in training camp. Barnes has been a bit of a disappointment to me as well and needs to step it up IMO with guys like Rambo, Mann and now Williams waiting in the wings.