Ott at Tor game thread - july 31, 2022

[Argo57]

Few expected the Argos to finish first last year but they did. Yes, the Argos have more talent than the 2014-15 Bombers and Dinwiddie has a good record in coaching that talent. 12-8, after going 8-28 and not having a winning season since 2015, is nothing to sneeze at.

Also, the Argos' Canadian talent, in particular, is young but has been progressing under Dinwiddie.

I would also ask this question - if the Argos fired Dinwiddie today, does anyone think that Toronto would be an attractive destination for any potential head coach, given that they would have fired a HC with a 12-8 record and a first place finish after two 4-14 seasons? Who the hell would want to go into what would appear to be a significant mess if Dinwiddie were foolishly fired? I wouldn't be surprised if Montreal has a hard time finding good candidates to coach that team after what they did to Khari Jones, who was highly regarded despite not having the level of success that Dinwiddie has had.

Pinball said three years ago that he was trying to build something long-term here and he also wanted a head coach that could grow with the team/franchise. I seriously doubt that Pinball has any reservations or regrets about hiring Dinwiddie, as the team has grown. Yes, we would all like them to be better than 3-3 so far this season but that is hardly a record that warrants panic. Dinwiddie is always quick to admit his mistakes and seems to be good about learning from them. There is an awful lot of football left this season and I look forward to seeing the continued growth of both Dinwiddie as a head coach, MBT as a QB, and this entire team.

To see some of the good that Dinwiddie has done, please watch this: https://www.xsandargos.com/post/film...oach-dinwiddie

I always admire your optimism Ravi.
IMO increasingly all eyes are on Dinwiddie and this coaching staff, I wouldn’t make any move during the season but would evaluate retaining him based on what transpires the rest of this season.
In truth he still makes some boneheaded in game decisions which shouldn’t happen in his second year as the HC of a professional football team.
Football (or any professional sport is a results based business) period.
In fairness let’s see what happens, if the Argos implode the rest of this season then he should be replaced, conversely if the finish strong and make a good account of themselves in the playoffs then he stays.

[Nob]

Ravi makes some good points, but the one that I can’t get over is the development of the young Canadian talent, at least from the OL perspective. It seems that other positional groups have developed Canadian talent nicely, but the Argos have too many Canadian OL that aren’t contributing.

I’m not sure what to make of Richards. Is he a tackle? Is he a guard? Can he play? The times he’s been forced to play I think he’s done ok. Giffen?? Churchill??? It is going to take more time to see if they can play.

It’s unfortunate that Nicastro is injured. He looked like someone that the team could build the OL on.

The other thing is that a lot of the key Canadian players that hold starting roles were brought in as free agents (Blake, Lawrence, Bladek on OL, Harris, and Muamba).

The Argos have done a great job at receiver with Gittens, and I think Nield can be a player (I’m not sold on Brissett, but that’s just me).

I would also like to see Cassar and Knight get off the IL to see what they can bring.

[paulwoods13]

Few expected the Argos to finish first last year but they did. Yes, the Argos have more talent than the 2014-15 Bombers and Dinwiddie has a good record in coaching that talent. 12-8, after going 8-28 and not having a winning season since 2015, is nothing to sneeze at.

Also, the Argos' Canadian talent, in particular, is young but has been progressing under Dinwiddie.

I would also ask this question - if the Argos fired Dinwiddie today, does anyone think that Toronto would be an attractive destination for any potential head coach, given that they would have fired a HC with a 12-8 record and a first place finish after two 4-14 seasons? Who the hell would want to go into what would appear to be a significant mess if Dinwiddie were foolishly fired? I wouldn't be surprised if Montreal has a hard time finding good candidates to coach that team after what they did to Khari Jones, who was highly regarded despite not having the level of success that Dinwiddie has had.

Pinball said three years ago that he was trying to build something long-term here and he also wanted a head coach that could grow with the team/franchise. I seriously doubt that Pinball has any reservations or regrets about hiring Dinwiddie, as the team has grown. Yes, we would all like them to be better than 3-3 so far this season but that is hardly a record that warrants panic. Dinwiddie is always quick to admit his mistakes and seems to be good about learning from them. There is an awful lot of football left this season and I look forward to seeing the continued growth of both Dinwiddie as a head coach, MBT as a QB, and this entire team.

To see some of the good that Dinwiddie has done, please watch this: https://www.xsandargos.com/post/film...oach-dinwiddie

Nice optimism, Ravi, and hopefully there are legitimate grounds for it. But I have to take issue with a couple of points. I would argue the team's young NATs are not progressing as well as they were last year. Acheampong seems much less productive and impactful. Hagerty has been mostly invisible this year. Richards IMO is not close to ready to be a starter. Adeboboye is getting no reps except on specials. Brescacin seems to have been buried. Giffen, Knight and Cassar have disappeared -- hopefully all are legitimately injured and will come back to the lineup at some point, but who knows. Churchill's development has slowed through no fault of Diniwddie (and good on the org for letting Churchill take time to be with his new baby).

On the flip side: Obviously Gittens is outstanding. Smith is very good. Sutton started a game in the secondary. MacKellar, after looking out of his depth early on, seems to be a legitimate guard. Brissett seems to be on a decent development track. Nield looked surprisingly good yesterday, let's see if it continues. Penney-Laryea is probably destined to be a useful STer along with Hoyte and Calver.

Also, I'm not sure I buy that Dinwiddie always learns from his mistakes. The wasted challenge last week, and the one against Wpg when an illegal contact penalty should have been called, continued a pattern we saw last year. To be fair, we at least are running short-yardage under centre now and no longer going from the gun. But what happened to the plan to have Kelly do those plays? It would be a way to get him at least a small taste of game experience. I know MBT wants to play every down, but he was happy to let Pipkin run short-yardage (and some regular plays) last year.

As I wrote a couple of weeks ago, he is learning on the job, and we all get to see that process, warts and all. And there are some ugly warts at times. The Banks-Tate scuffle should have had immediate intervention from the head coach, on the spot.

[Golden Fleece]

10,277 according to CFL Attendances via twitter.

Surprised by that number. Seemed bigger to me yesterday. Middle end zone was packed. Lower level west side pretty full. Couldn’t see upper deck from my seats. Fans tried to give the Argos a boost with the noise, but not many momentum building plays. Thought the D did a good job trying to keep it to a one score game as long as they did. The shoe throwing penalty was a real head scratcher though.

["Issues"Mcgee]

Surprised by that number. Seemed bigger to me yesterday. Middle end zone was packed. Lower level west side pretty full. Couldn’t see upper deck from my seats. Fans tried to give the Argos a boost with the noise, but not many momentum building plays. Thought the D did a good job trying to keep it to a one score game as long as they did. The shoe throwing penalty was a real head scratcher though.

It seemed bigger than that to me and it's kind of a let down that it wasn't, considering there were people sitting in our seats when we arrived haha

[AngeloV]

Well, after digesting that for 24 hours, my thoughts.

The defence, though only giving up 23 points had a bad day. They allowed Ottawa to move the ball too easily, and even when they punted, it resulted in long fields for the Argos O. It is very difficult to go 80 yards for a score. The biggest let down was all the 2nd and 8 plus conversions they allowed. Evans is not an 80% passer. but he was yesterday. He played well, but big help from the Argos D.
The TD drive at the end of the half, which was the result of a 2nd procedure penalty on short yardage and a breakdown on 2nd down by the o-line making MBT scramble. A first down there, and the Argos may get 7 instead of 3, and not allow the RedBlacks to even get the ball. A possible 11 point swing there, but definitely a 7 point swing.
Very untimely fumble by Harris following a nice gain on a deep crossing route. Argos never seemed to get any decent field position after that fumble while Ottawa just kept extending drives over and over again.
And lastly, very untimely OC penalty on McManis, followed by 2 more by Edwards. Turned a FG into a TD and 20 yards field position gained by Ottawa on the kickoff. Listening to Dinwiddie's presser, it would not surprise me to see Edwards let go this week. I am a big fan of Edwards, but at some point you have to balance out how much he helps them vs how much he hurts them.
Personally, I didn't see any coaching issues yesterday and am confused about the focus on that for this game. I don't blame coaches for OC penalties. That's on the players. I just think players didn't play well especially on D.
As I said earlier, I don't buy into trap games. Ottawa's players wanted this more. Maybe the lack of hate for the opposition after 2 really ornery games against the Riders caught the Argos playing too passive, I don't know. Ottawa is not a bad team, so I don't see it as an embarrassing loss.

[Argo57]

Well, after digesting that for 24 hours, my thoughts.

The defence, though only giving up 23 points had a bad day. They allowed Ottawa to move the ball too easily, and even when they punted, it resulted in long fields for the Argos O. It is very difficult to go 80 yards for a score. The biggest let down was all the 2nd and 8 plus conversions they allowed. Evans is not an 80% passer. but he was yesterday. He played well, but big help from the Argos D.
The TD drive at the end of the half, which was the result of a 2nd procedure penalty on short yardage and a breakdown on 2nd down by the o-line making MBT scramble. A first down there, and the Argos may get 7 instead of 3, and not allow the RedBlacks to even get the ball. A possible 11 point swing there, but definitely a 7 point swing.
Very untimely fumble by Harris following a nice gain on a deep crossing route. Argos never seemed to get any decent field position after that fumble while Ottawa just kept extending drives over and over again.
And lastly, very untimely OC penalty on McManis, followed by 2 more by Edwards. Turned a FG into a TD and 20 yards field position gained by Ottawa on the kickoff. Listening to Dinwiddie's presser, it would not surprise me to see Edwards let go this week. I am a big fan of Edwards, but at some point you have to balance out how much he helps them vs how much he hurts them.
Personally, I didn't see any coaching issues yesterday and am confused about the focus on that for this game. I don't blame coaches for OC penalties. That's on the players. I just think players didn't play well especially on D.
As I said earlier, I don't buy into trap games. Ottawa's players wanted this more. Maybe the lack of hate for the opposition after 2 really ornery games against the Riders caught the Argos playing too passive, I don't know. Ottawa is not a bad team, so I don't see it as an embarrassing loss.

I always thought the notion of a “trap game” was a vastly superior team taking a normally weaker opponent lightly and losing the game, by this very definition the Argonauts are in no position to take any team lightly.

[Will]

The second half seemed like it transpired like this:

Toronto put together a few first downs to get the ball to mid-field, but drive stalled there. They kicked the ball to Ottawa who was pinned deep, but got a few first downs to get the ball to mid-field. The Argos defense had difficulty making the stop that might've got themselves decent field position.

Repeat, repeat, repeat

[AngeloV]

The second half seemed like it transpired like this:

Toronto put together a few first downs to get the ball to mid-field, but drive stalled there. They kicked the ball to Ottawa who was pinned deep, but got a few first downs to get the ball to mid-field. The Argos defense had difficulty making the stop that might've got themselves decent field position.

Repeat, repeat, repeat

Pretty much. But the Argos D had plenty of opportunities to stop the RedBlacks but kept allowing them to convert 2nd and longs. The TD drive that put the RB’s up by 10 there were 2 plays in particular. Short pass to Behar, McManis has him stopped well short of the first down but JaGared Davis in support actually takes out McManis and allows Behar to get the first. Then the Argos stop them deep for what should be a FG, but McManis has a brain cramp and throws the shoe of the player he tackled to extend the drive and give them a TD making it a 2 possession game. Having said that, yes a penalty by the letter of the law, but in such a tame game, I think a bad call by the officials. McManis seemed frustrated that he pulled the shoe off of the ball carrie, letting the ball carrier slip through his tackle, and whipped it towards the RedBlacks backfield. No malice intended. To me a really soft call that deserved a warning and not a flag.

[ArgoRavi]

The second half seemed like it transpired like this:

Toronto put together a few first downs to get the ball to mid-field, but drive stalled there. They kicked the ball to Ottawa who was pinned deep, but got a few first downs to get the ball to mid-field. The Argos defense had difficulty making the stop that might've got themselves decent field position.

Repeat, repeat, repeat

That's one of the things Dinwiddie was ticked off about after the game - the defence's inability to keep Ottawa pinned deep. The score was 16-13 for a good 15 minutes of game time.