Game Thread: BC Lions @ Toronto Argonauts

[Will]

This is going to be a big test for the Argonauts. BC has been playing great football to start the season. Likewise, this'll be another test for BC against a very good Argos team.

[ArgofanIan]

Next home game is not until Aug 13. Should be one of the better home games this year. BC defense was incredible last game so this should be really good test. ... Go ARRGOS !!

[mattschabel]

should be a classic. maybe a grey cup preview.

[AngeloV]

BC has only given up 6 points in their last 2 games. That is insane in the CFL. Great test for the Argos this week. Let's hope we are not as banged up as I fear.

["Issues"Mcgee]

A marquee matchup this early. The Beast from the East versus the Best of the West on a Canada Day holiday.

It doesn't get any better than this.

[ARGOMAN 27]

[Rich]

I think the offence will look a lot like it did last week. With McKellar and Giffen in there that’s a pretty beefy O-Line, they could very well wear down the BC D running the ball.

I’m more excited to see what our defence can do. What an amazing bunch of playmakers. I can’t decide who’s been our outstanding D-man so far, #6 Pickett #7 Flo or #9 Metchie. Huge-impact players. They’re gonna give Vernon some headaches.

I’ve been a little underwhelmed by the play of #1. He is definitely not as strong as Henoc against the run, and it concerns me. So what’s the deal with Henoc, anyway? I’m beginning to think he signed only for a half season (sensible from his point of view), and it’s not the first half.

[AngeloV]

I’m more excited to see what our defence can do. What an amazing bunch of playmakers. I can’t decide who’s been our outstanding D-man so far, #6 Pickett #7 Flo or #9 Metchie. Huge-impact players. They’re gonna give Vernon some headaches.
.

Brinkman has been outstanding a DT.

[paulwoods13]

I’ve been a little underwhelmed by the play of #1. He is definitely not as strong as Henoc against the run, and it concerns me. So what’s the deal with Henoc, anyway? I’m beginning to think he signed only for a half season (sensible from his point of view), and it’s not the first half.

Williams has played less than five quarters. I'm certainly prepared to give him some time.

[OV Argo]

I think the offence will look a lot like it did last week. With McKellar and Giffen in there that’s a pretty beefy O-Line, they could very well wear down the BC D running the ball.

I’m more excited to see what our defence can do. What an amazing bunch of playmakers. I can’t decide who’s been our outstanding D-man so far, #6 Pickett #7 Flo or #9 Metchie. Huge-impact players. They’re gonna give Vernon some headaches.

I’ve been a little underwhelmed by the play of #1. He is definitely not as strong as Henoc against the run, and it concerns me. So what’s the deal with Henoc, anyway? I’m beginning to think he signed only for a half season (sensible from his point of view), and it’s not the first half.

Again, love to see a real dominant CFL D emerge, and both the Argo & BC versions this year look, perhaps, capable of reaching that lofty height. Interesting that both teams use a full or close to 8 man D-line rotation, and it's been a very strong routine (and some other CFL teams might copy).

Agreed that Henoc would be a boost - he is a stud MLB; Williams is a very athletic LB, but he lost his job to the bigger Hladik in BC, who like Henoc is maybe more of a natural tackling/instincts MLB, and Williams might be better suited to OLB where the Argos already have McManis - but nice to have the depth (and with Jones, Cassar, Hoyte = tons of LB talent), and Pickett is outstanding at what is called S-OLB, but really an extra DB. I actually expected more out of both Orimolade & Costigan, but it's early so far, and Robbie Smith should be playing the most reps at DE IMO. DT with Oakman in there is strong also (Knight emerging?). DBs have experience and talent with Metchie a real experienced safety now.

Now let's see them shut-down BC (if their receiving corps is all healthy it's easily league best talent IMO), by getting heat on Adams and forcing him into picks or wild throws that he sometimes does; stop the run early and a Campbell offence will abandon it like a rat off the good ship.

A dominant D IMO rarely has a bad game and does not give up 20 plus points often (last game's points for the Esks - a pick 6 and a fluke bounce long TD pass - are not that telling of the D)

[Retrogorilla 2]

Team looks even better than last season to my eyes. Aside from multiple sloppy tackling incidents last game from the secondary, our D looks awesome and our 1-2 RB attack looks to be one of the best. Oulette is a beast. Kelly has been solid if not spectacular, but he hasn't needed to be spectacular, which is a good thing.

B.C. will be a huge test - feel a lot better about it being at BMO than B.C. Place if we're thinking "win".

Let's Go Argos! I'll be going to the game - first time in ages!

[OV Argo]

Only one back-up receiver dressed for a 5 man starter group is ultra questionable roster management IMO; don't instead need 3 back-up LBs for a 3 man starting group, nor another back-up for a little used H-back. At least they are not CFL copy-cay dumb to dress only one back-up O-lineman; there have been a number of in game injuries to O-Linemen already this season.

[ArgoGabe22]

OV should be happy Smith gets the start but the league’s highest paid DE is listed as a backup, which I’m sure really means nothing.

[paulwoods13]

Only one back-up receiver dressed for a 5 man starter group is ultra questionable roster management IMO; don't instead need 3 back-up LBs for a 3 man starting group, nor another back-up for a little used H-back. At least they are not CFL copy-cay dumb to dress only one back-up O-lineman; there have been a number of in game injuries to O-Linemen already this season.

We've been over this before, but to repeat: most, if not all, of the guys you describe as backups are "starters" on special teams. Sitting a "backup" LB to dress another receiver would almost certainly have a negative impact on kick returns and kick coverage. Also, we have lost at least one guy (Sutton) who was on every special team, and it's possible (if not likely) that Barlow and Acheampong played specials last week. So adding Calver, an experienced STer, makes sense to me.

It's also worth noting that we have already used two-RB sets several times this season with Harris and Ouellette, and Leake is almost certainly capable of being inserted into the offence if needed. The Argos are dressing three of their four NAT receivers, and the fourth is on the six-game IL. Surely you are not suggesting that a capable STer be sat so that Byrd or Haydel can sit on the bench just in case a starter gets injured?

[OV Argo]

We've been over this before, but to repeat: most, if not all, of the guys you describe as backups are "starters" on special teams. Sitting a "backup" LB to dress another receiver would almost certainly have a negative impact on kick returns and kick coverage. Also, we have lost at least one guy (Sutton) who was on every special team, and it's possible (if not likely) that Barlow and Acheampong played specials last week. So adding Calver, an experienced STer, makes sense to me.

It's also worth noting that we have already used two-RB sets several times this season with Harris and Ouellette, and Leake is almost certainly capable of being inserted into the offence if needed. The Argos are dressing three of their four NAT receivers, and the fourth is on the six-game IL. Surely you are not suggesting that a capable STer be sat so that Byrd or Haydel can sit on the bench just in case a starter gets injured?

That is exactly what I'm suggesting; you don't need IMO a 4th string LB like Kwamou just to play special teams; and a loss of 2 starting receivers is possibly way more damaging than not having a STs only LB, unless the guy is a league leading STs tackler or blocking force; other guys on the roster can do that job of playing some STs. (Mike O'Shea used to play full-time duty on ST as well as starting MLB and late in his career - guys can do it, well, and be proud to get the extra playing time and contribute on STs)

And we have indeed gone over this CFL dullard roster management before - with O-Line deployment and dressing just one back-up for an ultra important 5 man starting unit. The Ticats already this season have been forced to throw a D-lineman in on the O-line. Are you saying the Argos are not smart to dress 2 back-up O- linemen? - why wouldn't they rather use the spot for another ST guy who plays a few snaps a game?

[Shatto]

It is disappointing to see Brinkman not dressed. He has played extremely well recently and it would have been nice to see him in the DT rotation with Oakman, Hendrix and Knight. Against B.C. the D line will need to be kept fresh to put pressure on B.C.'s QB and to prevent their running game. Personally I would have preferred Brinkman dressing rather than Stiggers but perhaps the team is concerned about only having Edouard as a backup DB

[ArgoRavi]

It is disappointing to see Brinkman not dressed. He has played extremely well recently and it would have been nice to see him in the DT rotation with Oakman, Hendrix and Knight. Against B.C. the D line will need to be kept fresh to put pressure on B.C.'s QB and to prevent their running game. Personally I would have preferred Brinkman dressing rather than Stiggers but perhaps the team is concerned about only having Edouard as a backup DB

It's a great problem to have when you have too many good defensive linemen. It is likely the case that they wanted to dress Stiggers as a backup, especially with Eric Sutton injured.

[paulwoods13]

That is exactly what I'm suggesting; you don't need IMO a 4th string LB like Kwamou just to play special teams; and a loss of 2 starting receivers is possibly way more damaging than not having a STs only LB, unless the guy is a league leading STs tackler or blocking force; other guys on the roster can do that job of playing some STs. (Mike O'Shea used to play full-time duty on ST as well as starting MLB and late in his career - guys can do it, well, and be proud to get the extra playing time and contribute on STs)

And we have indeed gone over this CFL dullard roster management before - with O-Line deployment and dressing just one back-up for an ultra important 5 man starting unit. The Ticats already this season have been forced to throw a D-lineman in on the O-line. Are you saying the Argos are not smart to dress 2 back-up O- linemen? - why wouldn't they rather use the spot for another ST guy who plays a few snaps a game?

"Just to play special teams . . . other guys on the roster can do that job of playing some STs." I guess you have never fully accepted that there is nothing "just" about special teams. They are as important an element as offence and defence. And on any given special-teams play, there are 12 guys doing important jobs. Not all of them have to be "league leading STs tacklers or blocking forces" to be vitally important to the unit's success. The Argos' specials have not been stellar so far this season, so all the more reason to make sure the right guys are dressed. But sure, let's have a backup receiver sit on the bench just in case he's needed instead of an athletic LB covering kicks and blocking on returns. (And what is Ungerer, chopped liver?)

As for the o-line, perhaps you haven't read my past statements that I would always dress seven, unless injuries made it impossible.

[paulwoods13]

It's a great problem to have when you have too many good defensive linemen. It is likely the case that they wanted to dress Stiggers as a backup, especially with Eric Sutton injured.

No doubt. As it is, we have two inexperienced backups if we lose someone in the secondary, although Pickett could maybe go back there if needed, move Jones to cover-backer and have Cassar move into the middle. We sat Hendrix in Game 1, Oakman in Game 2 and now Brinkman -- wonder if giving each guy periodic games off is part of a plan to keep them healthy and fresh.

[OV Argo]

[QUOTE=paulwoods13;167405]"Just to play special teams . . . other guys on the roster can do that job of playing some STs." I guess you have never fully accepted that there is nothing "just" about special teams. They are as important an element as offence and defence. And on any given special-teams play, there are 12 guys doing important jobs. Not all of them have to be "league leading STs tacklers or blocking forces" to be vitally important to the unit's success. The Argos' specials have not been stellar so far this season, so all the more reason to make sure the right guys are dressed. But sure, let's have a backup receiver sit on the bench just in case he's needed instead of an athletic LB covering kicks and blocking on returns. (And what is Ungerer, chopped liver?)


I might be Ok with the Argos dressing only one back-up receiver if the starting 5 pack included Greer, Masotti, Mookie, DK & Pearson; but it doesn't have that quality; what a back-up receiver , used smartly, brings, is a different look or skill-set for DBs to contend with - plays at a different speed, runs routes differently, gives a gassed starter a rest, etc. IF the Argos had a return specialist dressed or a back-up RB who is a capable receiver as well, then that guy could serve as the depth receiver - maybe Leake can do that?

Otherwise - a LB who the team who has no use for to play on D, but is an average ST guy, could IMO be replaced for those duties by somebody else on the roster; safer roster management - and similar idea to not just dressing one back-up O-line.