East Rivals in Next 2-4 Years

[ArgoRavi]

Ex Argo Regis Cibasu has lined-up at tight end for the Als this season, a bit, and released down field for 2 big gainer receptions.

Ottawa offences' little used H-back Marcos Dubois has produced 2 of the biggest plays for the team in the past 2 seasons: a tight end release in the first game of last year - wide-open for a huge gain, and a fullback throw-back/counter this season (long TD run after); another attempt to Dubois (by Masoli, just before he got injured) this season was wide-open for another huge gain but just off the mark (and Dubois might have done better tracking the pass).

That these plays/players are only tried once every 5 games or so - and after they have been so productive, speaks volumes IMO about CFL OCs' now reliance on same old, simple, base offence and not getting variety.

Both Cibasu & Dubois are big target / catch radius guys who can run (gee, like a tight end); and they play little on offence and are rarely targeted, so that's why it works - Ds are just not ready or accounting for the player; you can't just put a regular, targeted receiver at tight end and expect it work as a surprise play - the D will be looking at him as a receiver. A real regular tight end is another story, and there is ZERO CFL evidence to go by in the past couple of decades to say it would not work or be very effective.

Not sure if the Argos have a guy who could line-up as the pass catcher TE for a trick play - maybe Nichols could do the job ?

I am pretty sure that Don Sutherin tried using an old-time CFL offence when he was head coach of the Ticats in 1997 and that was a disaster. John Huard - a former Canadian university head coach (and highly successful at that) - used two tight ends regularly during his 1-7-1 tenure as Argos' head coach in 2000. Gary Etcheverry also ran an old-time offence of sorts during his 4-8 tenure as Argos' head coach in 2002.

[OV Argo]

I am pretty sure that Don Sutherin tried using an old-time CFL offence when he was head coach of the Ticats in 1997 and that was a disaster. John Huard - a former Canadian university head coach (and highly successful at that) - used two tight ends regularly during his 1-7-1 tenure as Argos' head coach in 2000. Gary Etcheverry also ran an old-time offence of sorts during his 4-8 tenure as Argos' head coach in 2002.

A 2 tight end set - that Huard used some - is just not the same as a regular, true single tight end formation, with that guy being a very good hands receiver; the 2 TE stuff (often they throw in an extra O-lineman) is almost exclusively just for blocking; and there are ZERO CFL teams - in decades - who load-up on more run than pass on the whole of a season = that's ZERO evidence from the football field

I can cite dozens & dozens of examples of total $hite same old CFL modern day look offences from the past couple of CFL decades: low scoring, lots of 2 & outs, INTs & sacks galore, and mostly games lost - with their same old simple look, all-pass thinking.

[Will]

I can cite dozens & dozens of examples of total $hite same old CFL modern day look offences from the past couple of CFL decades: low scoring, lots of 2 & outs, INTs & sacks galore, and mostly games lost - with their same old simple look, all-pass thinking.

Then please do so...

[OV Argo]

Then please do so...

Very simple: go to a CFL stats history page, and look at 20 years back or so, at all the bottom of the standings teams, with near bottom of the league total points scored, and you will find they are ALL same old CFL standard look 5 pack; QB in shot-gun all the time; way more pass play calls than run; one basic run play; no real tight ends deployed - offences. ALL of them. There have been no real alternatives tried.

Now if ALL of these CFL same old offences had produced high scoring, dynamic, first downs and yardage galore, shoot-out games teams (who lost mostly because of poor D or special teams), then there would likely be little reason to suggest there have been some real dullard offensive coaches involved, and just maybe they might have tried some variety or different offensive thinking to try to improve their offences. Hardly the case.

[Mocha]

Both Cibasu & Dubois are big target / catch radius guys who can run (gee, like a tight end); and they play little on offence and are rarely targeted, so that's why it works - Ds are just not ready or accounting for the player; you can't just put a regular, targeted receiver at tight end and expect it work as a surprise play - the D will be looking at him as a receiver. A real regular tight end is another story, and there is ZERO CFL evidence to go by in the past couple of decades to say it would not work or be very effective.

Not sure if the Argos have a guy who could line-up as the pass catcher TE for a trick play - maybe Nichols could do the job ?

Cibasu and Dubois are nice examples. I recall the Dubois plays being particulary exciting and getting his teammates revved up.

I might offer Jevon Cottoy as an example of a big-body receiver who has proven to be successful with regular targets. I'm not sure how often he lines up as a tight end to help block on run plays (or how successful he is at blocking in those situations), but I wouldn't be surprised if he does OK at it. Though having said that, I find BC to be one of those teams that too easily abandons the run game, so maybe Cottoy is not utilized for run blocking so much.

[Mocha]

I don't know how this stuff works, but IMO it would be awesome if the latter part of this thread could be spun off into its own thread about styles of offence. The OP's original question, which was entirely valid, seems to have been lost in the debate over that.

Good point, and as OP, I've been contributing to veering the thread off-topic.

How about we try to combine the ideas:

Which FB/TE type player from East rivals should the Argos try to poach in order to A. be a better team, and B. intensify a rivalry?

Hamilton:
Felix Garand-Gauthier
https://www.cfl.ca/players/felix-gar...uthier/166271/

Ottawa:
Marco Dubois
https://www.cfl.ca/players/marco-dubois/164093/

Montreal:
James Tuck
https://www.cfl.ca/players/james-tuck/160617/

Regis Cibasu
https://www.cfl.ca/players/regis-cibasu/164105/

David Dallaire
https://www.cfl.ca/players/david-dallaire/167930/


I might vote for Cibasu or Dallaire. It'd not only be poaching a good player from Montreal, but poaching a Quebec son to English-speaking Canada. OK, I'm sure hardly anyone would notice, but it could be played up a bit.

Interesting that 4 of the 5 are from Quebec (and 3 played at Laval). Maybe we need more Quebec-raised coaches designing offenses in the CFL.

[OV Argo]

Cibasu and Dubois are nice examples. I recall the Dubois plays being particulary exciting and getting his teammates revved up.

I might offer Jevon Cottoy as an example of a big-body receiver who has proven to be successful with regular targets. I'm not sure how often he lines up as a tight end to help block on run plays (or how successful he is at blocking in those situations), but I wouldn't be surprised if he does OK at it. Though having said that, I find BC to be one of those teams that too easily abandons the run game, so maybe Cottoy is not utilized for run blocking so much.

Cottoy - of the big-body TE frame - is a regular, oft targeted receiver in the BC 5 pack; so, even if he lines up at TE, the D is going to be aware of him and watching for him if he releases down-field. OTOH - BC little used H-back David Mackie could line-up at TE and release with the D not expecting him to be targeted. Mackie has shown very good big back, rumbling. quick feet ability almost every time he gets the ball for BC (including that game where he took over at tailback vs. the Argos and ran wild); that the BC offence almost never gives him the ball since, speaks volumes of what I'm on about, IMO.

[Mocha]

I asked PFF's CFL guy about Cottoy's numbers:

So I looked at guys who line up either TE or FB, regardless of listed position. Cottoy is by far the most frequent in the league (309 of 742 snaps), next highest are swing tackles (WPG Dobson) or true FBs like MTL Tuck. 2nd highest WR is WPG Rasheed Bailey (only 106 of 679 snaps)

In terms of actual run blocking skill, Cottoy is pretty solid, run block grade of 62.1 which would be right around average for an OL and above average for WRs. Bailey pretty good at it too at 67.4 but far less frequent than Cottoy

So in terms of strategy, I think using Cottoy in that role is effective for BC, but I'm not sure there are other receivers in the league who could really pull it off like he can

-------------------

So, white I agree with you, OV, that using Cottoy as a TE isn't going to surprise anyone, he's showing that a TE-like player can be used regularly with success.

But yeah, I'd like to see the Lions use Mackie more too, for blocking, rushing, and receiving. BC's run game in general needs some help, which could prove a bigger problem for them as the weather turns colder (while they're on the road, at least).