Mo Mann and Chandler Williams

[KCargosfan]

After this game, if we pull a NI out of somewhere, it has to be on the OL. That unit has gotten whipped the past 6 quarters.

[1argoholic]

They do look crap that's for sure.

[paulwoods13]

It's very clear that if the Argos are going to go down to seven NIP starters, the extra import will be Tony Washington on the o-line, not Mann or Rambo. Washington is a tackle so I would assume he'll replace Wayne Smith; Smith could be moved over to one of the guard spots. Eppele was on the bench for the late stages of the fourth quarter tonight, replaced by Parenteau. I didn't notice when that switch occurred but the interior of the o-line continues to be a major trouble spot.

One other observation I made at the game was that on one play, Barnes was kept in to block for RR and made what appeared (to me, at least) to be a pretty half-hearted effort. That plus the fact they did not throw a single ball in his direction tonight would seem to suggest that he is the most likely guy to be replaced by Mann or Rambo. The chances of Watt being sat, given the desperate need to upgrade the o-line (with an import tackle being the only solution at hand), would seem to be about nil.

[Will]

Agreed, the ratio seems to keep Watt in there right now.

Isn't Mann more of a WR rather than SB? The reason I ask and we sometimes forget is that Rambo isn't even officially on the roster technically.

[Gill The Thrill]

If Watt was a little more polished, it would be a great match up. No way can Parker keep up to Watt's speed down the sideline.

Sure could of fooled me, Watt was absolutely invisible today....he may play wide side receiver but he has to at least get himself open, and use his so-called speed, which quite frankly, I have not noticed. It's as if the the Argos are only playing with 11 out there. He puts no fear into any of the leagues defences and therefore does not need to be double covered or even covered in zone for that matter, since he can't create get seperation to get open....really disappointing from today.

He seems like a guy who's content with sneaking into the lineup using his N/I status as a crutch, instead of using it to establish himself as a possible cog in the offence...that's not acceptable, and I can't pinpoint whether it's him or the coaching and playcalling.

It's very clear that if the Argos are going to go down to seven NIP starters, the extra import will be Tony Washington on the o-line, not Mann or Rambo. Washington is a tackle so I would assume he'll replace Wayne Smith; Smith could be moved over to one of the guard spots. Eppele was on the bench for the late stages of the fourth quarter tonight, replaced by Parenteau. I didn't notice when that switch occurred but the interior of the o-line continues to be a major trouble spot.

One other observation I made at the game was that on one play, Barnes was kept in to block for RR and made what appeared (to me, at least) to be a pretty half-hearted effort. That plus the fact they did not throw a single ball in his direction tonight would seem to suggest that he is the most likely guy to be replaced by Mann or Rambo. The chances of Watt being sat, given the desperate need to upgrade the o-line (with an import tackle being the only solution at hand), would seem to be about nil.

That O-line was getting creamed today...as a matter of fact, both lines got manhandled today. Heard Norm Rumack on the FAN590 talk to Bob Mitchell from the Star about last night's game and he said Wayne Smith took this loss really hard, which I think he should've. It was tough to not notice that he was practically rag-dolled and manhandled all game. The Lions also kept teeing up on Chad Owens by giving Ray that 4 yard dink pass to Owens, when others could not get open or when Ray could not have the time to see them...He'd dump it to Owens and then Lions Lb's would quickly tackle him before he could even plant his feet, let alone make a move.

Was it me, or did Dontrelle Inman stop running his route in that 4th quarter interception. I know he stopped running after the catch was made, and that can't happen. He has had a couple of good plays, but the Argos can't be totally sold on him as he has been shut down at times also.

[Fungi]

I don't need to see another back converted to receiver with Kackert. we enough of those. Lets give Rickey a bonafied downfield threat. I don't know Watt, and I haven't seen anything from him for me to keep him on the team. EARN yor spot and your paycheque.

[Nob]

Gill, Gill, Gill....... But Watt would have had another catch.......except it got called back because of penalty......and Watt's penalty that took away Boyd's big ?......c'mon......it really wasn't a penalty......

My point here is all the Watt supporters look at the extraneous stuff and say "it's alright....he's young.....he's Canadian.....He's not part of the game plan.......". What they don't say is 1 catch. 8 yards. Big whoop. That's it. That's all.

I said it in my other post - if we had replaced Watt and Barnes with 2 blue pylons would it have made a difference??

[argolio]

if we had replaced Watt and Barnes with 2 blue pylons would it have made a difference??

If we had replaced them with any two of their receivers, it also would not have made a difference. This particular game was decided primarily by line play.

[Gill The Thrill]

Gill, Gill, Gill....... But Watt would have had another catch.......except it got called back because of penalty......and Watt's penalty that took away Boyd's big ?......c'mon......it really wasn't a penalty......

My point here is all the Watt supporters look at the extraneous stuff and say "it's alright....he's young.....he's Canadian.....He's not part of the game plan.......". What they don't say is 1 catch. 8 yards. Big whoop. That's it. That's all.

I said it in my other post - if we had replaced Watt and Barnes with 2 blue pylons would it have made a difference??

I'll take the bait on this question and in my truthful opinion....no...as a matter of fact, I was thinking of the word pylons myself when thinking of their production while at the game...that's how noticeably unnoticeable they were. Just watching the repeat of the game on TSN2 as I speak, and agree with Schultzie that the Argos have let BC walk all over them physically in their own barn.

If you don't expect your wide side receiver to produce, then why not just put a pylon with his number jersey over it...that way the pylon which would probably be "made in China" could still count as a non-import....lol....it would also help the team with the SMS since it would not have to be paid...lol

In all seriousness, they need more from their receivers...but they may possibly send a strong message by maybe just dumping Jason Barnes from the roster by Labour Day, if it releases them from having to pay him all year...needless to say, he's been a huge disappointment and does not look like he will attain his form that he had with Eskimos.

If we had replaced them with any two of their receivers, it also would not have made a difference. This particular game was decided primarily by line play.

The line play was a mismatch, but we could have used a taller receiver, possibly a N/I who may not be regarded as a speedster but has hands....do we have a guy like that....hmmmm, oh yah, ....Mike Bradwell...a guy who was developing and making some big catches last year while we had crap behind centre. Now we get a QB, and we let him rot on the bench...what a joke?

[argolio]

JACKSON, E 4 87 50 0
BRUCE, A 3 39 24 0
GORE, S 4 31 12 0
SIMON, G 2 26 20 0
FOSTER, A 3 18 9 1
HARRIS, A 2 4 3 0

Bruce did nothing. Simon did even less. Who was their big receiver today? The guy none of us has ever heard of and who wasn't even listed in the free game program. And he had the only big offensive play of the game. Foster did get a TD, but I can't classify a TD catch after a turnover deep in our own zone as a big play.

I'd like to see Bradwell on the field a bit more, but I also don't see him in camp/practice every day.

[Nob]

Agreed that there were no shining offensive performances in the game by either team. It was a game where the defenses were dominant. Given that factor one big play either way could have made a big swing, and BC got that when somebody blew the coverage on Jackson for the play that set up the touchdown on "4th down". It wasn't a play that Jackson made as much as it was a play that the coverage missed.

For as little as Bruce and Simon did they still did 4 catches and 57 yards more than Watt and Barnes.

A TD is a big play, regardless of where on the field it comes from. Therefore I would give Foster credit for making the play. You have to take advantage and make other teams pay when they turn the ball over. As badly as the Argos were in turning the ball over early in the game Foster had the only TD.

[AngeloV]

Since this thread is full of ridiculous comments I will also now add one. This loss was definitely Cleo Lemon's fault.

That O-line was getting creamed today...as a matter of fact, both lines got manhandled today.

We must have been watching a different game. Please explain to me how you saw or d-line get manhandled? With the exception of 1 run when the game was already over, they really shut down Harris today. I think he was averaging less than 3 yards per carry. They also dominated BC on that goal line stand, until the offside. Flemons and Huntly were awesome yesterday, and (sorry OV..but) Kuale has been a beast all year. You can't look at sack totals to determine how good our D-Line has been this season. Jones runs a different type of defence, and you likely will not see big sack totals from the line.

[1argoholic]

Our D line just doesn't get enough pressure on the qb's. But they did GREAT in clogging everything up. From week to week you never know what to expect from a team that's full of new faces and growing. Lets face it the game was like a typical NFL game today. I prefer more offense.

[Gill The Thrill]

We must have been watching a different game. Please explain to me how you saw or d-line get manhandled? With the exception of 1 run when the game was already over, they really shut down Harris today. I think he was averaging less than 3 yards per carry. They also dominated BC on that goal line stand, until the offside. Flemons and Huntly were awesome yesterday, and (sorry OV..but) Kuale has been a beast all year. You can't look at sack totals to determine how good our D-Line has been this season. Jones runs a different type of defence, and you likely will not see big sack totals from the line.

Flemons and Huntley did play a great game and the goal line stand was good, too bad 3 guys had stupidly put their toes across the plain of the goal line when they should've known that it would possibly get called....Marcus Ball may have got called, and you could not definitively tell from the highlight, but Evan McCullogh was also offside by letter of the law on that 3rd and goal.

Chris Jones does run a different defence and in my opinion it's too wimpy from a scheme point of view...and that's what I meant about being manhandled. It's getting results, but I find it a little too forgiving and not punishing enough on opposing players and especially QB's.

Like 1argoholic said, I would like to see them pressure the QB more...you have a N/I like Ricky Foley and you pretty much change the entire scheme to render him innefective...I don't know if that's great coaching in the long run...too me it's trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Sure the defence is improved, but can it be better, and does the coach only have one way to coach and therefore can't use all his players to his potential.

I always believed the best coaches and co-ordinators adjust their game plans according to the players that they have, not the other way around...If a guy sucks and can't perform, then that's one thing, but we know Foley can perform, but is being prevented from doing so. Hey, it's great that this D is tailored to McCune and he's performing great, but if it's at the expense of Foley's position on the team, how is that really improving the roster overall...especially since Foley is a N/I and McCune an import.

[Nob]

I took Gill's comment to read that both OL's were getting beat, not that our OL and DL were getting manhandled. Gill will have to clarify.

I thought our DL p,ayed one of their better games. Kuale is a monster out there. While Flemons isn't getting the sacks he is doing the other little things that help out. I like Armstead and Summers. Two more solid finds.

Let's hope the defense can maintain this for the season. Once the offence gets going things will be looking good. The problem is that this is a quote we've said all too often in the past several years. The difference is that his time we have the coaches and the QB to deliver. Now we need to fix the OL and receivers.

Progress can never happen quickly enough, I guess........lol.

[AngeloV]

Flemons and Huntley did play a great game and the goal line stand was good, too bad 3 guys had stupidly put their toes across the plain of the goal line when they should've known that it would possibly get called....Marcus Ball may have got called, and you could not definitively tell from the highlight, but Evan McCullogh was also offside by letter of the law on that 3rd and goal.

Chris Jones does run a different defence and in my opinion it's too wimpy from a scheme point of view...and that's what I meant about being manhandled. It's getting results, but I find it a little too forgiving and not punishing enough on opposing players and especially QB's.

Like 1argoholic said, I would like to see them pressure the QB more...you have a N/I like Ricky Foley and you pretty much change the entire scheme to render him innefective...I don't know if that's great coaching in the long run...too me it's trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Sure the defence is improved, but can it be better, and does the coach only have one way to coach and therefore can't use all his players to his potential.

I always believed the best coaches and co-ordinators adjust their game plans according to the players that they have, not the other way around...If a guy sucks and can't perform, then that's one thing, but we know Foley can perform, but is being prevented from doing so. Hey, it's great that this D is tailored to McCune and he's performing great, but if it's at the expense of Foley's position on the team, how is that really improving the roster overall...especially since Foley is a N/I and McCune an import.

I don't know Gil. It sounds like you are way to worried about personal stats. No 1 player is bigger than the team. Right now the team defence is in the top 2 overall. I'll take that over Foley leading the league in stats anytime. Considering that the best red zone team in the league had 2 drive starts from inside the 20 and only scored 18 points the whole game? What is there to possibly complain about on defence?

Our D line just doesn't get enough pressure on the qb's. But they did GREAT in clogging everything up. From week to week you never know what to expect from a team that's full of new faces and growing. Lets face it the game was like a typical NFL game today. I prefer more offense.

It really isn't designed to get pressure on the QB's. The D-line frees up players like Issac and Ball (unaccounted for players) to get in quick on the QB's and force them into throws they don't want to make. I think it's safe to say that has happened all season thus far.

[Gill The Thrill]

I don't know Gil. It sounds like you are way to worried about personal stats. No 1 player is bigger than the team. Right now the team defence is in the top 2 overall. I'll take that over Foley leading the league in stats anytime. Considering that the best red zone team in the league had 2 drive starts from inside the 20 and only scored 18 points the whole game? What is there to possibly complain about on defence?

Not personal stats, but using players to their best effectiveness and to their potential...At this point in time, I can't argue against your point as the defense has tremendous stats so far. As you stated they held off the BC offence well after starting the first 2 series deep in their zone.

I just wish they pinned the ears back a bit more and punished Lulay a lot more. I like to see a feared defence that frightens Qb's, reciever and backs into making turnovers. I'm not sure I see this from Jones defence, but I do from Stubler's on BC's defence...that being said, BC's lines are probably the best and toughest in the league. As of now, I expect the Lions to be back at the dome in late November, but I'm sure the Riders may have some say in deciding that.

It really isn't designed to get pressure on the QB's. The D-line frees up players like Issac and Ball (unaccounted for players) to get in quick on the QB's and force them into throws they don't want to make. I think it's safe to say that has happened all season thus far.

I thought Lulay had enough time to make some big plays. They did shut down Simon and Harris but that big play in the 4th quarter to the one, sealed the game. Carter got turned inside out and with Lulay under little pressure for most of the game, he sure had the confidence to put in a perfect pass without feeling any pressure to get it off quickly.

Too me, that sounds like the BC offensive line did their job...I know that's one play, but that was the difference in the game. So yah, Jones defence played really well, but Stubler's played a little better, and were more punishing on Ray, Owens and Boyd, than Jones' D was on Lulay, Harris and Simon...end of story.

Good game, but the better team, the Grey Cup champion won...no shame in that, but it does show us how much work the Argos still need to do.

[ArgoRavi]

Not personal stats, but using players to their best effectiveness and to their potential...At this point in time, I can't argue against your point as the defense has tremendous stats so far. As you stated they held off the BC offence well after starting the first 2 series deep in their zone.

I just wish they pinned the ears back a bit more and punished Lulay a lot more. I like to see a feared defence that frightens Qb's, reciever and backs into making turnovers. I'm not sure I see this from Jones defence, but I do from Stubler's on BC's defence...that being said, BC's lines are probably the best and toughest in the league. As of now, I expect the Lions to be back at the dome in late November, but I'm sure the Riders may have some say in deciding that.

Prior to yesterday, the Argo defence had forced the most turnovers in the league. All I care about is the defence not giving up points and being able to make plays. They didn't do the latter yesterday but have done so throughout the season. As for the utilization of Foley, I would argue that Jones is using him in the best way considering how well the defence as a whole is performing.

[OV Argo]

The Argo D is very solid so far and IMO the furthest thing/area this team needs to worry about at this point; I hope they can keep up the strong play and opposing offences do not find some weak spots - but so far, so good ... make that very good IMO.

Offence OTOH - has some real problems / work to do - even with the addition of a great QB like Ray - it did not make things magically great all-around on offence;

- the receiving corps has been pretty decent overall - Owens really emerging as a solid receiver (didn't think he had it but proving me wrong thus far), + Durie = 2 good receivers; and impressed by Inman so far; but Barnes is doing little and Watt not much either; hardly a top-notch CFL receiving corps though IMO - need a big-target, great hands go to guy, and a consistent deep threat.

- Boyd still a top notch back, but needs more run plays (both in quantity and diversity - not the same old standard run play always) AND more help from his blockers ...

- O-line = a glaring weak or at least mediocre spot IMO; I wasn't sure what to expect from this group going into or heading out of TC, BUT - not at all surprised they are struggling - when you're starting a bunch of guys who have not played much together before to become a solid unit AND they are playing positions they collectively have not much experience in ... what was expected? : Keeping - a former CIS slotback/ TE who has played D-line in the CFL and has some CFL experience at O-Line but next to no playing time there - starting C ???; Eppele - little proven college ball playing time experience where he was an OT; plays a few games at guard last year, and now expected to be an every-down solid staring OG ??? Andrew Jones - a former CIS D-Lineman with a bit of CFL experience as an O-Lineman but not much playing time at all - expected to be a starting calibre OG all of a sudden ??? Gagne-Marcoux - has some decent CFL experience, but again - converted to a guard from C where he was a US college ball all-star type - i think he should have been able to be counted on at either guard or C for the Argos - is he close to a league best type at either though?; Van Zeyl - former CIS D-lineman - made the nice transition to OT i guess in the CFL - counted on as a solid OT now, but is he close to a league best type? Wayne Smith - experienced CFL O-lineman, but more at OG i believe, and with lots of injury history - now counted on to be a starting OT - would he be close to a league best type? and Parenteau - possibly the most actual CFL playing time experience of this group - not a starter here? - not at OG where he has played lots in the CFL (way more experience than Eppele, Keeping and Jones combined probably) nor given a shot at OT where he was a Div. I all-star in college ball? St-Pierre around too - former all-star C in Div I ball, but he hasn't graded out in the CFL i guess and can't beat out a neophyte C in Keeping?

Tons of question marks there for me i guess; changes or a shake-up needed - big-time maybe; Parenteau went in for Eppele last game (saw Eppelle get beat bad early in the game, but that has happened to all of this O-line likely so far this year). Like to see some changes made for next game - I realize a lot of typical posters will just assume that getting any import in could mean an instant upgrade, but I don't subscribe to this standard assumption; maybe Washington or some other new import could be a superstar OT and would open huge holes for Boyd or give Ray all day to throw; and maybe not - Washington didn't make the Stamps last year and had proven zip in the CFL combined with zero real playing time in Canadian football - wouldn't be surprised to see him handed a starting gig though - something needs to be done and maybe he helps; I'd rather see a re-jigging of what they have though - put Parenteau at OT (with Van Zeyl ), move Smith to OG (with Gagne-Marcoux) and give St-Pierre a shot a C, for example.

[argolio]

I thought Lulay had enough time to make some big plays. They did shut down Simon and Harris but that big play in the 4th quarter to the one, sealed the game. Carter got turned inside out and with Lulay under little pressure for most of the game, he sure had the confidence to put in a perfect pass without feeling any pressure to get it off quickly.

A perfect pass (or a good one) would have easily resulted in a TD. Lulay was fortunate Ernest Jackson was so open after Jalil Carter lost track of him.