Game Thread: Toronto Argonauts @ Winnipeg Blue Bombers

[paulwoods13]

I wouldn't disagree with anything here although I am thinking that Kelly will play at least 10 of the remaining 16 quarters. I also would like to see the Argos get to 15 wins which means winning 3 of their last 4 at least.

Which will be the other game that Kelly sits out in its entirety? I figure it will either be the game in Saskatchewan or the game in Ottawa.

Ten quarters might be more than he actually gets. I think Kelly will start the next two games, at home against Edm and Ott, but likely won't go all the way in both. Then sit out the game in Sask (which IMO Scott should start). Then play a quarter against Ott in the finale. So maybe he gets about five or six quarters.

[paulwoods13]

One more point. It was ridiculous for TSN and others in the media to seize on the three guys Argos took out of the lineup (in addition to Kelly) as evidence they were going with a lesser lineup. Brinkman is arguably as good as Oakman (and played earlier this season when Oakman was a healthy scratch). Jones is not quite at McManis's level but is not that far below, and has played a lot this year. There's no question that taking Peters out of the lineup hurt, but we were already very thin in the secondary after losing Daniel and Amos earlier. Pierce has performed quite well (although man, he looks small to me) and Harry acquitted himself OK last night. It was great to see Priester eased back into the lineup; we're gonna need him before this is over (Carnell, too, if he gets healthy enough to play).

Here are the individuals currently on the six-game injured list: Daniel, Amos, Muamba, Gittens, Hagerty, Haggerty, Carnell, Bladek and Johnson. Even if we assume Muamba and Bladek were not going to be starters this season (although they are definitely starting-calibre players), that leaves four who were bona fide starters plus Carnell who is also starting-calibre. Guys on the one are: Oakman, Peters, McManis, Cage, Phillips (all starters) plus Richards. So that's at least nine starters and arguably as many as 11 or 12 who could start and we'd all be happy. And then we sat our only proven starter at QB. Despite all that, we led the mighty Blue Bombers for most of the game. This team is absolutely stacked with talent, thanks to Magri, Russell, Murphy and Pinball. In the unlikely event that everyone gets healthy by the end of the season, some really, really good players are going to be left off the roster for the Eastern Final.

[AngeloV]

So did Duane and Rod.

He definitely tried to lateral it . It was probably ruled that it went forward making it a fumble and you can’t advance a forward fumble in the last 3 minutes of either half

[gilthethrill]

He definitely tried to lateral it . It was probably ruled that it went forward making it a fumble and you can’t advance a forward fumble in the last 3 minutes of either half

Was that rule created in regards to an Oakland Raiders TD in the 70s during a playoff game?

[AngeloV]

The fact the Argos gave up a ton of rushing yards means nothing. They had no run blitzes at all. They won’t allow that to happen in a meaningful game.

[AngeloV]

Was that rule created in regards to an Oakland Raiders TD in the 70s during a playoff game?

It was in the NFL, not sure when the CFL picked up that rule

[AngeloV]

One more point. It was ridiculous for TSN and others in the media to seize on the three guys Argos took out of the lineup (in addition to Kelly) as evidence they were going with a lesser lineup. Brinkman is arguably as good as Oakman (and played earlier this season when Oakman was a healthy scratch). Jones is not quite at McManis's level but is not that far below, and has played a lot this year. There's no question that taking Peters out of the lineup hurt, but we were already very thin in the secondary after losing Daniel and Amos earlier. Pierce has performed quite well (although man, he looks small to me) and Harry acquitted himself OK last night. It was great to see Priester eased back into the lineup; we're gonna need him before this is over (Carnell, too, if he gets healthy enough to play).

Here are the individuals currently on the six-game injured list: Daniel, Amos, Muamba, Gittens, Hagerty, Haggerty, Carnell, Bladek and Johnson. Even if we assume Muamba and Bladek were not going to be starters this season (although they are definitely starting-calibre players), that leaves four who were bona fide starters plus Carnell who is also starting-calibre. Guys on the one are: Oakman, Peters, McManis, Cage, Phillips (all starters) plus Richards. So that's at least nine starters and arguably as many as 11 or 12 who could start and we'd all be happy. And then we sat our only proven starter at QB. Despite all that, we led the mighty Blue Bombers for most of the game. This team is absolutely stacked with talent, thanks to Magri, Russell, Murphy and Pinball. In the unlikely event that everyone gets healthy by the end of the season, some really, really good players are going to be left off the roster for the Eastern Final.

Bang on assessment Paul.

[OV Argo]

Muamba is actually injured.

The only thing that could be chalked up as a concern from this game is 200 rushing yards allowed to the Blue Bombers. This was, mind you, given up without McManis and Oakman in the lineup.

Not sure I buy that, but would like to hear a clear and reasonable explanation of his Argo status. Saving cap $$$ = B$

And having such an outstanding football player & leader as just an "insurance policy" if you are serious about repeating as GC Champs is a bit of a joke IMO; Jordan Williams or Jones are good, athletic LB talents, but they just aren't close to Henoc as a true MLB; we saw what the Bombers & Oliveira did last night or what the Stamps run game did to the Argos in their other loss. Mind-numbing dumb not to have a league best MLB talent in for the big games unless he is really injured/incapable; and dressing him just for the play-off games when he would have rust and not be in game shape is dumbness too.

[paulwoods13]

Not sure I buy that, but would like to hear a clear and reasonable explanation of his Argo status. Saving cap $$$ = B$

And having such an outstanding football player & leader as just an "insurance policy" if you are serious about repeating as GC Champs is a bit of a joke IMO; Jordan Williams or Jones are good, athletic LB talents, but they just aren't close to Henoc as a true MLB; we saw what the Bombers & Oliveira did last night or what the Stamps run game did to the Argos in their other loss. Mind-numbing dumb not to have a league best MLB talent in for the big games unless he is really injured/incapable; and dressing him just for the play-off games when he would have rust and not be in game shape is dumbness too.

There's nothing wrong with debating the merits of sitting Muamba and Bladek all year (altho a 12-2 record would suggest any such decision probably was not a wrong decision). But if you think Argos should not have done this, how would you account for the cap savings they would lose if either or both of those guys had been on the roster all season? Those are two pretty big salaries, and now they are tracking to also "save" one-third of Harris's salary by six-gaming him until the season ends. Combined, that's probably $300k or more of money they can spend elsewhere. They re-signed Kelly, including bumping his 2023 salary up, and they extended Nicastro. Although we don't know details of those transactions, I would not be surprised if Nicastro was given a signing bonus charged against the 2023 cap. If they hadn't been able to keep Muamba and Bladek off the books, would they have been able to do that? Would they have been able to bring back Peters when he got cut down south? Would someone else on the current roster not be here? These decisions are not made in a vacuum, and working the salary cap smartly is the opposite of BS, IMO.

[Argo57]

There's nothing wrong with debating the merits of sitting Muamba and Bladek all year (altho a 12-2 record would suggest any such decision probably was not a wrong decision). But if you think Argos should not have done this, how would you account for the cap savings they would lose if either or both of those guys had been on the roster all season? Those are two pretty big salaries, and now they are tracking to also "save" one-third of Harris's salary by six-gaming him until the season ends. Combined, that's probably $300k or more of money they can spend elsewhere. They re-signed Kelly, including bumping his 2023 salary up, and they extended Nicastro. Although we don't know details of those transactions, I would not be surprised if Nicastro was given a signing bonus charged against the 2023 cap. If they hadn't been able to keep Muamba and Bladek off the books, would they have been able to do that? Would they have been able to bring back Peters when he got cut down south? Would someone else on the current roster not be here? These decisions are not made in a vacuum, and working the salary cap smartly is the opposite of BS, IMO.

Well said.^^^^^^^

[jerrym]

The CFL sched. makers couldn't possibly know this would be a nothing game for the Argos. Still a solid football game IMO and I thought the Argos might have got blown-out with nothing to play for and with a raw rookie QB. Bombers won with their power run game and Collaros was not able to scorch the make-shift Argo secondary, like he has done to so many other Ds.

And I, for one, hate to see a GC re-match early in the season and I just don't get the idea of it happening 1st game of the year ?; mid season or late in the year are much better IMO.

Why not make sure the two Grey Cup teams meet twice so each team gets a home game with one early in each half of the season to spark interest?

[OV Argo]

There's nothing wrong with debating the merits of sitting Muamba and Bladek all year (altho a 12-2 record would suggest any such decision probably was not a wrong decision). But if you think Argos should not have done this, how would you account for the cap savings they would lose if either or both of those guys had been on the roster all season? Those are two pretty big salaries, and now they are tracking to also "save" one-third of Harris's salary by six-gaming him until the season ends. Combined, that's probably $300k or more of money they can spend elsewhere. They re-signed Kelly, including bumping his 2023 salary up, and they extended Nicastro. Although we don't know details of those transactions, I would not be surprised if Nicastro was given a signing bonus charged against the 2023 cap. If they hadn't been able to keep Muamba and Bladek off the books, would they have been able to do that? Would they have been able to bring back Peters when he got cut down south? Would someone else on the current roster not be here? These decisions are not made in a vacuum, and working the salary cap smartly is the opposite of BS, IMO.

I didn't say Henoc should have been active all season. And I don't know his CFL salary. How much do you figure the $M$ cost would be to activate him for the last 6 games, and say compared to him being active vs. Jones at LB ?

Bladek was not likely to start or beat out any of the starting 3 interior O-linemen.

[Waffle]

Back in the spring, 3DownNation published a series of articles outlining the highest paid players for each position group. Here is the link for linebackers:
https://3downnation.com/2023/04/22/t...23-cfl-season/


The article claimed that Henoc Muamba’s base salary was $155,000 with incentives taking his salary up to a max of $172,000.


The article for the highest paid linemen is here:
https://3downnation.com/2023/04/20/t...e-2023-season/


The article claimed that Darius Bladek’s base salary was $190,000 with incentives taking it up to a max of $200,000.


I must say that I am a bit confused by this discussion. If these two players were assessed at the beginning of the season as not being able to play, and likely not being able to play for the season, wouldn’t you save the same amount of money by not having them on the roster at all as having them on the roster and on IR the whole year? I conclude that the Argo brain trust thought that they likely would be able to play at some point, as surely they wouldn’t be spending their salaries just as a token for their past performances and loyalty.

[Blue90]

They should have left Dukes in the game, Scott was ineffective and could have played in some other game. If Dukes had remained, the Argos might have been able to pull off a win.

Yes, I don't know why Dukes was taken out of the game.

Give him a chance to win the game in his first start, with many Argos players not playing, against the potential opponent in the Grey Cup.

Scott has plenty of opportunities to play in the next month.

I would prefer that Argos won yesterday, even though it was a meaningless game.

[paulwoods13]

I must say that I am a bit confused by this discussion. If these two players were assessed at the beginning of the season as not being able to play, and likely not being able to play for the season, wouldn’t you save the same amount of money by not having them on the roster at all as having them on the roster and on IR the whole year? I conclude that the Argo brain trust thought that they likely would be able to play at some point, as surely they wouldn’t be spending their salaries just as a token for their past performances and loyalty.

The word "saving" might the cause of your confusion. The Argos are spending real money on both guys, but their salaries do not have to be accounted for under the cap. If they were on the active roster, or the one-game injured list, their entire salary would count against the cap. When they are on the six-game injured list for the full six games (as they have both been, twice, and now into their third stint), they get fully paid but none of their salary counts against the cap. That means the $360k that they are being paid (assuming those figures are accurate) can be spent on other players while remaining under the cap. This presumes that ownership is willing to spend more than the cap amount. All teams exceed the cap amount in any given season, because all teams have certain guys whose salaries don't count against the cap when they are six-gamed. Hamilton will not have to account for part of Bo's big salary this year because he has served one full stint on the six, and might serve a second by the time the season ends. The question is how much tolerance does a team have for exceeding the cap amount, while staying within the cap. It appears Argos management decided at the start of the year that they were prepared to pay Bladek and Muamba to be spare parts, available in case of emergency or (at least in theory) in the playoffs (when the cap becomes irrelevant). It's not substantially different than what some NHL teams do, like the Leafs sending Matt Murray to Robidas Island for the season. He gets paid, but since his salary doesn't count against the cap, they can spend that amount on other players. If ownership is happy to spend well above the cap, and the player is fine with being paid but not playing, it's a win-win. And if we were to run into severe injury woes at LB or O-line, those guys could be activated (but then their salary would have to count against the cap, of course).

[paulwoods13]

I didn't say Henoc should have been active all season. And I don't know his CFL salary. How much do you figure the $M$ cost would be to activate him for the last 6 games, and say compared to him being active vs. Jones at LB ?

It would depend on what they did with Jones. If the reported figures are correct, it would cost almost $10k per game to have Muamba active. Jones is probably making about half as much, so if he were placed on the six-game, the Argos would be in for an additional $5k per game (the spread between Muamba's $180k and Jones's estimated $90k). If (as seems more likely), Jones was made a healthy scratch and placed on the one-game, the full cost -- Muamba's $10k per game plus Jones's $5k per game -- would be charged against the cap.

[OV Argo]

It would depend on what they did with Jones. If the reported figures are correct, it would cost almost $10k per game to have Muamba active. Jones is probably making about half as much, so if he were placed on the six-game, the Argos would be in for an additional $5k per game (the spread between Muamba's $180k and Jones's estimated $90k). If (as seems more likely), Jones was made a healthy scratch and placed on the one-game, the full cost -- Muamba's $10k per game plus Jones's $5k per game -- would be charged against the cap.

Yeah, but using those figures; Mumaba activated and Jones to the 6 game (as Henoc has been) would mean hardly a whopping cap hit? Muamba is the far better defensive player, pure MLB and leader; they already have McManis at W-OLB, plus Jordan Williams able to play both and 2 further experienced back-ups and ST guys in Cassar & Hoyte or even draft pick Kwamou if they are that desperate for extra LBs.

[Waffle]

I get it now.
There is a difference between the real dollars the team actually pays out, and the quixotic “cap dollars” they are supposed to live within.
Thanks for the explanation.

[paulwoods13]

Yeah, but using those figures; Mumaba activated and Jones to the 6 game (as Henoc has been) would mean hardly a whopping cap hit? Muamba is the far better defensive player, pure MLB and leader; they already have McManis at W-OLB, plus Jordan Williams able to play both and 2 further experienced back-ups and ST guys in Cassar & Hoyte or even draft pick Kwamou if they are that desperate for extra LBs.

The deeper we get into the season, the easier/cheaper it gets to replace guys. With only four games left, there might be enough available cap space to take on some extra costs. But a few factors might mitigate against doing what you are suggesting. First of all, they're likely gonna be adding other cap expense from here on out by moving guys to the one-game for healthy scratch/resting purposes. Doing that increases cap expense because the guy who comes in gets a game cheque and the guy on the one-game also gets a game cheque. Secondly, I doubt they would six-game anyone who isn't either legitimately hurt or willing to sit for six games. As far as I know, Jones is not injured so putting him on the six seems extremely unlikely. Unlike Muamba, who is clearly in the late stages of his career and transitioning to life outside football, Jones is still trying to get established as a player. Healthy-scratching him for a game (if that were to happen -- IMO he is not a candidate for a rest the way a few other guys are) is a lot different than burying him for six. Finally, I think the org believes Jones is far better than you are suggesting. He likely is not as good as prime Muamba (few LBs are), but Muamba is likely not prime Muamba at this stage of his career.

[OV Argo]

The deeper we get into the season, the easier/cheaper it gets to replace guys. With only four games left, there might be enough available cap space to take on some extra costs. But a few factors might mitigate against doing what you are suggesting. First of all, they're likely gonna be adding other cap expense from here on out by moving guys to the one-game for healthy scratch/resting purposes. Doing that increases cap expense because the guy who comes in gets a game cheque and the guy on the one-game also gets a game cheque. Secondly, I doubt they would six-game anyone who isn't either legitimately hurt or willing to sit for six games. As far as I know, Jones is not injured so putting him on the six seems extremely unlikely. Unlike Muamba, who is clearly in the late stages of his career and transitioning to life outside football, Jones is still trying to get established as a player. Healthy-scratching him for a game (if that were to happen -- IMO he is not a candidate for a rest the way a few other guys are) is a lot different than burying him for six. Finally, I think the org believes Jones is far better than you are suggesting. He likely is not as good as prime Muamba (few LBs are), but Muamba is likely not prime Muamba at this stage of his career.

I'm more into winning another GC this season I guess than rationalizing saving 30K or so of $MS for this season; or hurting the feelings of a young player who should get being set aside for a much better player, veteran and leader. I sort of like how Henoc played last season including in the GC win; but maybe his injury now (if there is a real one still?) or age, would prevent him from being anywhere near as good as he was in the past; in that case - do not activate / play him.