Argos at BMO Field

[T-Bone]

Dream scenario, Argos get a new owner and stadium and the Blizzard are revived as a new NASL expansion team to play out of new Argos digs to piss of MLSE even more. oh to dream.

As a soccer fan I actually wouldn't mind seeing a Toronto NASL team, it would be good for the sport. I know some are opposed to MLSE ownership of the Argos but they have the resources to grow the brand and I don't see many other potential owners at this time with those same resources. The fact that MLSE is willing to take a loss this season on TFC in order for long term gain shows me there is a shift in mentality over there and I'm pretty sure that mostly comes down to Leiweke. If MLSE buys the Argos they will get the promotion they deserve.

It is not disloyal or destructive to like more than one sport, more than one league or more than one team. To suggest otherwise is silly.

I agree. On another note, what saddens me is the fact that any team in this city struggles with attendance. When you actually look at how few people out of the population need to get out to games on a regular basis to keep each team afloat it's really not that many. Toronto is not really a sports town, we are a Leaf town. Even with that, I wonder if the corporate tickets were out of the equation how things would be.

Weren't the Raptors in Skydome at one point ?

Yes, when they started and before they were owned by MLSE.

[Neely2005]

As a soccer fan I actually wouldn't mind seeing a Toronto NASL team, it would be good for the sport. I know some are opposed to MLSE ownership of the Argos but they have the resources to grow the brand and I don't see many other potential owners at this time with those same resources. The fact that MLSE is willing to take a loss this season on TFC in order for long term gain shows me there is a shift in mentality over there and I'm pretty sure that mostly comes down to Leiweke. If MLSE buys the Argos they will get the promotion they deserve.


I agree. On another note, what saddens me is the fact that any team in this city struggles with attendance. When you actually look at how few people out of the population need to get out to games on a regular basis to keep each team afloat it's really not that many. Toronto is not really a sports town, we are a Leaf town. Even with that, I wonder if the corporate tickets were out of the equation how things would be.


Yes, when they started and before they were owned by MLSE.

Sad but true. Every team aside from the leafs has struggled with attendance at some point and many teams from many different sports have folded or left town all together.

[shayman]

Weren't the Raptors in Skydome at one point ?

Yes - 1995-1999. And it was a mild pain for the Argos; once the Raptors season started, there was a scoreboard gizmo hanging from the Skydome roof, and the roof could no longer be opened for football even if it was a nice fall day.

Here's a picture of the odd setup. (click to enlarge, wish I could find a better shot.)

Skydome_Raptors.jpg

Wouldn't it be great if we were actually the prime tenant in a stadium? Some day.

[Will]

I remember Raptors basketball at Skydome. I saw Michael Jordan and the Bulls the first or second season the Raptors were in existence.

[LLB997]

I remember Raptors basketball at Skydome. I saw Michael Jordan and the Bulls the first or second season the Raptors were in existence.

Ya, I was at that game. Sat in the 500 level for 5 bucks. Only raptors game I have ever been to.

[Will]

Ya, I was at that game. Sat in the 500 level for 5 bucks. Only raptors game I have ever been to.

This game?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...703270TOR.html

I specifically remember it because the Raptors held Jordan to only 12 points.

[LLB997]

that was the game. they were pushing tix for it like mad. We got a group rate of 5 bucks a ticket through my school but soon realized everyone sitting in our section paid the same price. We were just dicking around the whole game being brats. The sightlines were awful and the players looked like little dots on the floor.

[AngeloV]

What revisionist history are you talking about?

Unless I am mistaking, you suggested that the West along with Ottawa, Montreal and to a degree Hamilton were not wannabe American cities. So how do you explain Montreal and Ottawa losing their CFL teams for many years, but Toronto not?

[Will]

Unless I am mistaking, you suggested that the West along with Ottawa, Montreal and to a degree Hamilton were not wannabe American cities. So how do you explain Montreal and Ottawa losing their CFL teams for many years, but Toronto not?

I don't think it suggests that Ottawa and Montreal were wannabe American cities, but you are certainly correct in pointing out that it hardly labels those cities as steadfastly loyal CFL markets.

[AngeloV]

I don't think it suggests that Ottawa and Montreal were wannabe American cities, but you are certainly correct in pointing out that it hardly labels those cities as steadfastly loyal CFL markets.

That was what I was trying to say, but I guess I used his quote to make my point.

[argotom]

That was what I was trying to say, but I guess I used his quote to make my point.

What point?
The fact is how Montreal in the 90's I guess, having a momentary lapse in judgment and wanting the NFL while the in the laugh league in 91 & 92 with the Machine, thereafter they have been very good with the return of the CFL.

[Tau Ceti]

Unless I am mistaking, you suggested that the West along with Ottawa, Montreal and to a degree Hamilton were not wannabe American cities. So how do you explain Montreal and Ottawa losing their CFL teams for many years, but Toronto not?

I don't think we should get on too high a horse about never losing our franchise. The Argos had effectively collapsed at the end of the Sherwood Schwarz era. Had it been any other city I expect the league would have allowed the team to go defunct.

[ArgoZ]

I don't think we should get on too high a horse about never losing our franchise. The Argos had effectively collapsed at the end of the Sherwood Schwarz era. Had it been any other city I expect the league would have allowed the team to go defunct.

I was almost ready to accept the end then. So glad they stayed alive and doesn't matter how, but they did. I can remember Hamilton and even the mighty Green Riders on their death beds also.

[AngeloV]

I don't think we should get on too high a horse about never losing our franchise. The Argos had effectively collapsed at the end of the Sherwood Schwarz era. Had it been any other city I expect the league would have allowed the team to go defunct.

I wasn't trumpeting Argos off field success, believe me.

No matter. Most people here knew what I meant.

What point?
The fact is how Montreal in the 90's I guess, having a momentary lapse in judgment and wanting the NFL while the in the laugh league in 91 & 92 with the Machine, thereafter they have been very good with the return of the CFL.

I think I'll just leave it at You don't get it. You obviously conveniently misremember how the team was on the brink of folding again, but lucked out with a U2 concert at the Big O on a playoff date. That total fluke saved the Als.

[Neely2005]

"The plan is for MLSE to spend $120-million making the stadium suitable for both the CFL and Toronto FC, the company's Major League Soccer franchise, topped by a roof over the expanded stands, which will seat 30,000 for soccer and between 25,000 and 26,000 for football."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle16570810/

Personally I always thought that the Argonauts should be in a 35,000 seat stadium. 26,000 seems to small to me. Here's last season's attendance for games at Rogers Centre:

29,852
18,211
20,064
19,656
21,157
18,863
28,467
18,478
22,589
35,418 (Playoff Game)

Average attendance: 23,276
Average regular season attendance: 21,926

The other thing to consider is with a smaller capacity it increases the likelihood of higher prices. Plus the fact that apparently it's more expensive to stage events at the city owned BMO Field due to the Union contracts:

"It is expensive to play a game at BMO Field, more expensive than it is now for the Argos to play a game at the Rogers Centre. Thanks to several union contracts between the city and everyone from the electrical and sound staff to concessions workers and the ushers, it costs about $100,000 every time Toronto FC plays at BMO Field. That is why there are few concerts at either BMO or Ricoh Coliseum, which is governed by the same deals. Since the facility is owned by the city, there is no cutting a sweetheart deal just to land a new tenant."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle16570810/

[matthew]

If we were building our own building, I think it needs to be 30K and expandable to 45K for big events like Grey Cup's etc assuming of course we're not welcome back in the dome after the Jays grass is in.

But we don't have much of a choice if its not our own project. But I do agree it should be more. At least 28K.

[Mulder]

I don't think 26,000 is bad at all. It's the way the Eastern based teams are going anyways. With Ottawa and Hamilton at the 22,000-24,000 range. Montreal at 25,000.

That globe and mail quote is bull plop anyways. More expensive? I'd be hard pressed to believe the Argos don't share those expenses anyways, paying for concession staff is the same thing. Argo's don't get a share of concessions at Rogers Centre, They probably would at BMO Field. More revenue.

[AngeloV]

No it's not too small. It is perfect. I realize the spike in attendence for the playoff game, but remember, the place will be expandable to 40,000 for special events. I'm sure if the team feels they can sell 35k for a playoff game, they will expand.

[Neely2005]

I don't think 26,000 is bad at all. It's the way the Eastern based teams are going anyways. With Ottawa and Hamilton at the 22,000-24,000 range. Montreal at 25,000.

That globe and mail quote is bull plop anyways. More expensive? I'd be hard pressed to believe the Argos don't share those expenses anyways, paying for concession staff is the same thing. Argo's don't get a share of concessions at Rogers Centre, They probably would at BMO Field. More revenue.

They probably don't pay for the staff because they don't get any of the revenue from the concessions. Even if they do paying for minimum wage concession staff at Rogers Centre is not the same as paying for unionized staff for everything at BMO Field. They probably would? So maybe they wouldn't?

No it's not too small. It is perfect. I realize the spike in attendence for the playoff game, but remember, the place will be expandable to 40,000 for special events. I'm sure if the team feels they can sell 35k for a playoff game, they will expand.

Attendance was down last season but we still had 3 games (one was a playoff game) that were over the proposed 25,000 - 26,000 capacity of a renovated BMO Field.

[paulwoods13]

26,000 means the place would be, and feel, full or close to it most of the time. 35,000 would be replicating what we have now -- too many empty seats and the accompanying reduction in atmosphere.

Yes, our ticket prices are going to increase -- if it is the price of keeping the team alive and with stable long-term ownership, so be it. As I've written elsewhere on this site, I don't believe we can have a great building, a wealthy owner, a great atmosphere and low ticket prices. I'll take the first three and accept the loss of the fourth.

I would not be surprised if part of MLSE's end game here is to buy back the stadium from the city, so it can be operated without restrictive labour contracts. That would reduce the "rent" for event use to a much more manageable and profitable level.