August 1, 2014: Toronto Argonauts vs. Montreal Alouettes

[AngeloV]

Just reading the forum for the first time since before the game.

Although I should be used to it, I can't believe some of the idiotic comments concerning Ray. Has anyone not seen that pretty well all of his "bad" throws have been to receivers that have no separation from coverage? Darvin Adams has had a huge opportunity to step up and clearly has not been able to. Maurice Mann has been trashed on this forum before, but it says a lot for a guy that has been away from the game for 18 months to come in and become the best of the receivers. There is not a team in the league that can lose their top 5 receivers, and only be left with the starting wide side receiver, that will be successful on offence.

[argonaut11xx]

There is not a team in the league that can lose their top 5 receivers, and only be left with the starting wide side receiver, that will be successful on offence.

The quote above is bang on.....that said, the Pickering Dolphins would have beaten the Al's on friday night.
The Argo's need to improve, and get healthy at the same time.

[Argo]

Maurice Mann has been trashed on this forum before, but it says a lot for a guy that has been away from the game for 18 months to come in and become the best of the receivers.

Indeed, it also says a lot about the other receivers.

[gilthethrill]

Congrats on the weekend toronto sweep guys. Now to see if at least 15,000 can show up on a tuesday night at Rogers. I hear Jarrod Johnson might be heading to the als.

Weekend sweep?

[argotom]

Here is another perspective from Steve Simmons in today's Sun.

"RAY AVERAGE WHEN IT COMES TO WINS
Ricky Ray is the only sure-thing Hall of Fame quarterback in the CFL right now.
But when it comes to winning games, he is surprisingly ordinary and certainly no Doug Flutie.
Ray started his 30th regular-season game with the Argos on Friday night in Montreal and despite all his wonderful numbers, and despite throwing just about the most catchable football of all time, he has just 15 wins and 15 losses over three regular seasons in Toronto.
That’s it for the current face of the CFL.
Flutie’s record with the Argos over two seasons was 27-9 with a spectacular Toronto team. And if you look south, you see quarterbacks like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning with remarkable numbers. Manning is 163-73 as an NFL starter. Brady is 148-43 in his time in New England.
Somehow Ray doesn’t translate to victories the same way as other legends do".

[Ron]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe guys ripping Ray. This is Friggin so laughable. Is it Ray's fault that Barker hasn't found superstars to fill the roll of his injured superstars. You can't replace Owens and Durie. Now even a solid rookie who catching the ball amazingly is injured in Coombs.

When we get our injured guys back we'll be laughing in this really shit filled eastern division.

Hey look! You got to be the voice of OPTIMISM!

[ArgoRavi]

Indeed, it also says a lot about the other receivers.

It says that Mann has familiarity with the system and chemistry with Ray because he has played a fair bit with him while the other receivers do not. That is why Barker brought Mann back to the fold.

[AngeloV]

Here is another perspective from Steve Simmons in today's Sun.

"RAY AVERAGE WHEN IT COMES TO WINS
Ricky Ray is the only sure-thing Hall of Fame quarterback in the CFL right now.
But when it comes to winning games, he is surprisingly ordinary and certainly no Doug Flutie.
Ray started his 30th regular-season game with the Argos on Friday night in Montreal and despite all his wonderful numbers, and despite throwing just about the most catchable football of all time, he has just 15 wins and 15 losses over three regular seasons in Toronto.
That’s it for the current face of the CFL.
Flutie’s record with the Argos over two seasons was 27-9 with a spectacular Toronto team. And if you look south, you see quarterbacks like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning with remarkable numbers. Manning is 163-73 as an NFL starter. Brady is 148-43 in his time in New England.
Somehow Ray doesn’t translate to victories the same way as other legends do".

So now after years of trashing Simmons, you cherry pick a column of his because it supports what you have to say? Pretty 2 faced on your part, but not surprising.

Comparing Ray to Flutie makes no sense. Flutie is the best QB I have ever seen play in the CFL.

Comparing a CFL resume to an NFL resume is also riduculous. I have seen many QB's that were mediocre at best put up great winning percentages in the NFL. With 4 downs, it's easy to mask a so so QB. Furthermore, in Brady and Manning, you are talking about the 2 best QB's in the last 20 years.

[argonaut11xx]

Steve Simmons is an idiot......end of story

[Argocister]

Steve Simmons is an idiot......end of story

Totally agree.... Where's that like button?

[1argoholic]

Love Flutie and think he was the best but Flutie's ass got saved by some GREAT talent everywhere he played and his running ability.
Ray won us a Grey Cup and is constantly surrounded by new guys year in and year out. Our threats on O are falling fast and furious. Game in and game out we're losing guys. Adams has been a total flop. We need to get healthy on O period. Everyone will be singing a different tune when Owens and Durie are back. Any team in the league would take Ray in a heartbeat.
Oh and Simmons is a jack off. Actually doing that is as close to a sport as he's ever played.

[ArgoRedneck]

Full roster for the 1st game in the Peg. 21 points against a defence also playing their 1st game as a unit. 21 points does not cut it in the CFL. As teams "D" get better do we think that a healthy Argo "O" would be good enough to win more games? I think that with the "D" allowing 34 and 37 points that both those games would be losses anyways with a healthy "O".

Also funny if you add the points up for all teams in the east, they add up to the amount of points that 1 team in the west has.

[Wobbler]

So... what is your point, ArgoRedneck? Is it that we're bad and we should feel bad?

[ArgoRedneck]

So... what is your point, ArgoRedneck? That we're bad and we should feel bad?

Wob, point is with a healthy team we still would have only 1 more win against an expansion team. Don't feel bad when we get are 4 players back we will start to win. Right?

[argotom]

So now after years of trashing Simmons, you cherry pick a column of his because it supports what you have to say? Pretty 2 faced on your part, but not surprising.

Comparing Ray to Flutie makes no sense. Flutie is the best QB I have ever seen play in the CFL.

Comparing a CFL resume to an NFL resume is also riduculous. I have seen many QB's that were mediocre at best put up great winning percentages in the NFL. With 4 downs, it's easy to mask a so so QB. Furthermore, in Brady and Manning, you are talking about the 2 best QB's in the last 20 years.

I have never said he wasn't an idiot.
Still is and that will never change.
Two faced comment, now that's typical of you though to start blasting people when you do not agree.
My point with the article, I was surprised with the numbers quoted in the CFL.
I do agree with you as well, Flutie was the best QB that I have ever seen in any league and especially during his tenure in the CFL.
But, RR does have a chance like Flutie of being in the Hall.

[OV Argo]

It says that Mann has familiarity with the system and chemistry with Ray because he has played a fair bit with him while the other receivers do not. That is why Barker brought Mann back to the fold.

Yeah - Mann has the familarity with Ray going and he is a CFL vet receiver; and it's very tough to overcome injuries to key starting receivers - however it also might say something about your offence being so dependent on 2 main receivers and maybe something about an inability to find other ways to be productive on offence (like lean on way more ground game, or have some new wrinkles like more deep bombs or some plays to the TE/fullback); and other CFL teams seemed to have shown more depth at receiver with new guys stepping up when it is their turn to play (for whatever reasons) - the Stamps in particular have had very good receiver depth with some bright new guys (West, Price, Fuller) making an impact (they did lose Nik Lewis, Johnny Forzani, Jabari Arthur some or lots to injury last year, plus the new guys mentioned have been nicked some too), and plus they were not afraid to throw the ball to some young / back-up NIs who have had to step-up: Sinopoli, Anthony Parker made impacts last year and Charbonneau-Campeau has played some this season; and they have always utilized their H-back Rob Cote (very good receiver) some in the pass game.

I expected more out of the Argo O lately even with all the losses: Adams or Fayson perhaps and more out of Bradwell, Watt, Dupuis or give Adjei a shot; and they do have Ray at QB who should IMO be able to do well with whoever at receiver (it's not like he's working with guys they just picked-up off the street - they'be been in Argo TC and working in practice with the team all season. Mo Mann - ok, whatever, but I don't buy the excuse of very little for Ray to work with all of a sudden and maybe I agree with Rich a tad here, that Ray could have stepped-up his game some as the vet QB leader - like he has no choice to make poor decisions and try to force the ball into receivers who just can't get open ??? - not a sign of a good QB in any way and perhaps he should speak-up and tell Milanovich and Brady that their offence is too simple and predictable and time for better play-calling or some better use of some of the back pages of the play-bood (or design some new plays) instead of same old, same old?

[paulwoods13]

Here is another perspective from Steve Simmons in today's Sun.

"RAY AVERAGE WHEN IT COMES TO WINS
Ricky Ray is the only sure-thing Hall of Fame quarterback in the CFL right now.
But when it comes to winning games, he is surprisingly ordinary and certainly no Doug Flutie.
Ray started his 30th regular-season game with the Argos on Friday night in Montreal and despite all his wonderful numbers, and despite throwing just about the most catchable football of all time, he has just 15 wins and 15 losses over three regular seasons in Toronto.
That’s it for the current face of the CFL.
Flutie’s record with the Argos over two seasons was 27-9 with a spectacular Toronto team. And if you look south, you see quarterbacks like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning with remarkable numbers. Manning is 163-73 as an NFL starter. Brady is 148-43 in his time in New England.
Somehow Ray doesn’t translate to victories the same way as other legends do".

I'm not going to pile on about a poster here citing Simmons (whose work I happen to like) in defence of his own thesis, but I couldn't help but notice a glaring error in Simmons' report. Flutie was not 27-9 with the Argos. He was 30-6 in regular season, 34-6 including postseason.

[Ron]

Here is another perspective from Steve Simmons in today's Sun.

"RAY AVERAGE WHEN IT COMES TO WINS
Ricky Ray is the only sure-thing Hall of Fame quarterback in the CFL right now.
But when it comes to winning games, he is surprisingly ordinary and certainly no Doug Flutie.
Ray started his 30th regular-season game with the Argos on Friday night in Montreal and despite all his wonderful numbers, and despite throwing just about the most catchable football of all time, he has just 15 wins and 15 losses over three regular seasons in Toronto.
That’s it for the current face of the CFL.
Flutie’s record with the Argos over two seasons was 27-9 with a spectacular Toronto team. And if you look south, you see quarterbacks like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning with remarkable numbers. Manning is 163-73 as an NFL starter. Brady is 148-43 in his time in New England.
Somehow Ray doesn’t translate to victories the same way as other legends do".

LOL. You're now quoting NFL wannabees to make your point? How the credibility has fallen.

[ArgoRavi]

Here is another perspective from Steve Simmons in today's Sun.

"RAY AVERAGE WHEN IT COMES TO WINS
Ricky Ray is the only sure-thing Hall of Fame quarterback in the CFL right now.
But when it comes to winning games, he is surprisingly ordinary and certainly no Doug Flutie.
Ray started his 30th regular-season game with the Argos on Friday night in Montreal and despite all his wonderful numbers, and despite throwing just about the most catchable football of all time, he has just 15 wins and 15 losses over three regular seasons in Toronto.
That’s it for the current face of the CFL.
Flutie’s record with the Argos over two seasons was 27-9 with a spectacular Toronto team. And if you look south, you see quarterbacks like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning with remarkable numbers. Manning is 163-73 as an NFL starter. Brady is 148-43 in his time in New England.
Somehow Ray doesn’t translate to victories the same way as other legends do".

Here is a little counterpoint to Simmons' musings, ArgoTom: http://tipofthetower.com/2014/08/03/...y-ray-success/

[gilthethrill]

I guess Argos fans who are questioning Ray have no recall of the defense the Argos were able to construct thanks the the US Dispersal draft. Flutie had the luxury of a shut down defense...Ray, not so much. Football is a team game, won lose records for a qb can be deceiving.