Argo Sale

[Neely2005]

If the team really does cost $10M, and another $10M is needed to upgrade the stadium, why are people so apparently optimistic that it will be sold to MLSE or anyone else? I have stated before that I believe the Argos could turn an operating profit of around $1M/year under the MLSE umbrella and in the reconfigured BMO, but that's a big investment for a profit that is fairly small (certainly by MLSE standards) and far from a sure thing.

Are you factoring in the new TV deal and a Grey Cup?

[R.J]

I'm of a belief that if MLSE were willing to be good owners to the Argonauts, meaning spend money and media attention the way they do their others properties. Treat the Argos as 1B at BMO instead of 3rd class citizens and willing to lose some money on the team early on in order to get the team's brand out there (massive marketing campaigns). Then the Argonauts wouldn't just become stable at BMO, but thrive. The longer this goes on the more I start to think that MLSE is just waiting Braley out.

$1 million IMO is too low number in terms of potential profit over at BMO.

[rdavies]

$1 million IMO is too low number in terms of potential profit over at BMO.

I don't know where paulwoods13 got that number but I got that number from a Richard Peddie interview on PTS a few years ago when MLSE was looking at buying the Argos a year or two before that. That was before the new TV contract.

Can someone tell me why the Argos can't be seen as being fairly profitable if and when they get turned around. Is the cost of doing business in T.O so high? The Argos are a nationally known brand with a great tradition, can't any of the marketing "geniuses" at MLSE figure out how to monetize that.

To me, in the right hands, the potential of the Argos is limitless. I believe, judging by the TV numbers, that the local fanbase numbers for the Raps and TFC aren't a helluva lot larger than their live gates. Surely to God in a market of some 5 million they can find 25k crazy people to attend Argo games, there must be that many contrarians or not wannabees in a market that size.

[R.J]

I don't know where paulwoods13 got that number but I got that number from a Richard Peddie interview on PTS a few years ago when MLSE was looking at buying the Argos a year or two before that. That was before the new TV contract.

Can someone tell me why the Argos can't be seen as being fairly profitable if and when they get turned around. Is the cost of doing business in T.O so high? The Argos are a nationally known brand with a great tradition, can't any of the marketing "geniuses" at MLSE figure out how to monetize that.

To me, in the right hands, the potential of the Argos is limitless. I believe, judging by the TV numbers, that the local fanbase numbers for the Raps and TFC aren't a helluva lot larger than their live gates. Surely to God in a market of some 5 million they can find 25k crazy people to attend Argo games, there must be that many contrarians or not wannabees in a market that size.

I figured that's where the $1 million number came from, however at the time Peddie was talking about the Argos at the dome. IIRC it was something along the lines of how "they'd have to work their butt off in order to make $1 million, meanwhile just bring in 4 concerts to the ACC and make the same money."

The Argos in BMO are a different animal, while I don't believe just dropping the Argos into BMO will fix them as some seem to believe, there's no question Argos in BMO under MLSE ownership would generate more money. Getting facility fee/ticket surcharge money could easily bring in at minimum $1 million that the Argos currently don't see, plus parking revenue which the Argos don't currently see and concession revenue which is big business now in all leagues. While I'm not of an opinion that the Argos have to or should be owned by MLSE, there's no question that for the Argos current needs there's no better potential owner.

[argotom]

Mr. Braley must hold firm at $10M, for the sake of credibility in the market place and the rest of the league.
The amount is pocket change.

[AngeloV]

Mr. Braley must hold firm at $10M, for the sake of credibility in the market place and the rest of the league.
The amount is pocket change.

Why has the credibility changed now from the time that he paid $0 to take it over (and run the fan base into the ground). If he were to get $2 million, it would show great progress, and that would carry the most credibility regarding the team's value. It would be the most credible exchange of the franchise publicly since Harry Ornest sold the team to Bruce Mcnall.

AT, are you still holding out trying to get more for the magic beans you've had for the last 20 years?

Regarding the $1 million figure Paul threw out...I think if MLSE owned it, it would turn a bigger profit than that. They would sell Argo gear throught the stadium, as well as at their RS store, as they do for TFC. Argos definitely have a bigger fan base overall than TFC, and if it became cool again to go to Argos games, the profit number IMO would be considerably higher.

[paulwoods13]

Are you factoring in the new TV deal and a Grey Cup?

Yes, I am. Actually I am not factoring in a grey cup because one has not been awarded yet. And even if one were awarded it would be once over eight to 10 years, not sustainable revenue.

I think people are being way too optimistic about profit potential. I believe the team has very likely not turned an operating profit since 1990. That's 25 years ago. Last season their ticket revenue was likely less -- and possibly a LOT less -- than their ticket revenue. We all saw the crowds. I don't believe the team sold as many as 100,000 tickets. So we are going to go from 25 years of losses and a market that has had precious little marketing and precious little ticket sales and suddenly start making profit of more than $1M/year? I just don't see it. If anything, I think $1M is a very optimist scenario.

[Neely2005]

Yes, I am. Actually I am not factoring in a grey cup because one has not been awarded yet. And even if one were awarded it would be once over eight to 10 years, not sustainable revenue.

I think people are being way too optimistic about profit potential. I believe the team has very likely not turned an operating profit since 1990. That's 25 years ago. Last season their ticket revenue was likely less -- and possibly a LOT less -- than their ticket revenue. We all saw the crowds. I don't believe the team sold as many as 100,000 tickets. So we are going to go from 25 years of losses and a market that has had precious little marketing and precious little ticket sales and suddenly start making profit of more than $1M/year? I just don't see it. If anything, I think $1M is a very optimist scenario.

Well like others have said above MLSE thought that they could make $1 Million per season at the Rogers Centre under the old TV Deal. I don't see how MLSE wouldn't make more at BMO Field where they would control additional revenue streams and with the new TV Deal. I know that it's supposed to be expensive to run events at BMO Field because of the union contacts but it's been reported that the Rogers Centre is currently the most expensive venue on a per game basis of all CFL teams. IIRC the Argonauts pay $100,000+ per home game.

[argotom]

Why has the credibility changed now from the time that he paid $0 to take it over (and run the fan base into the ground). If he were to get $2 million, it would show great progress, and that would carry the most credibility regarding the team's value. It would be the most credible exchange of the franchise publicly since Harry Ornest sold the team to Bruce Mcnall.

AT, are you still holding out trying to get more for the magic beans you've had for the last 20 years?

Regarding the $1 million figure Paul threw out...I think if MLSE owned it, it would turn a bigger profit than that. They would sell Argo gear throught the stadium, as well as at their RS store, as they do for TFC. Argos definitely have a bigger fan base overall than TFC, and if it became cool again to go to Argos games, the profit number IMO would be considerably higher.

Hey I agree how we may be near the bottom of the absolute lowest time in teams history.
Still when factoring the new TV deal and the remaining teams that are likely all in the black, you cannot let this history rich entity go for less.
Heck inflation and the soaring values of sports teams alone is example enough.
The $10M large figure would be the absolute lowest and especially when on the other side of the scale, the Riders as the richest may be worth $75M-$100M and more.

[paulwoods13]

Hey I agree how we may be near the bottom of the absolute lowest time in teams history.
Still when factoring the new TV deal and the remaining teams that are likely all in the black, you cannot let this history rich entity go for less.
Heck inflation and the soaring values of sports teams alone is example enough.
The $10M large figure would be the absolute lowest and especially when on the other side of the scale, the Riders as the richest may be worth $75M-$100M and more.

OK, when someone steps forward to write a cheque for $10M, not even counting the $10M needed for stadium upgrade, you will be proved right. Until then I don't believe the team will be sold for anywhere close to that amount.

[AngeloV]

OK, when someone steps forward to write a cheque for $10M, not even counting the $10M needed for stadium upgrade, you will be proved right. Until then I don't believe the team will be sold for anywhere close to that amount.

I agree, Paul. The only way Braley gets 10M is if the board, in the interest of getting a more desirable ownership situation, each pony up a little more than a million, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

[argotom]

OK, when someone steps forward to write a cheque for $10M, not even counting the $10M needed for stadium upgrade, you will be proved right. Until then I don't believe the team will be sold for anywhere close to that amount.

You may be right, or we all may be proven wrong.
But, the last reports right or wrong again, had several potential owners kicking the tires.

[T-Bone]

Mr. Braley must hold firm at $10M, for the sake of credibility in the market place and the rest of the league.
The amount is pocket change.

It's easy to spend other peoples money, eh. I wouldn't call $10M pocket change, not even for MLSE.

You may be right, or we all may be proven wrong.
But, the last reports right or wrong again, had several potential owners kicking the tires.

Do you have a link for these reports?

[gilthethrill]

In fairness to AT, I do recall the Star interviewing Braley back in the fall, in which he did mention he had potential buyers "kicking the tires"...I am unable to provide a link but I am certain I read those words.

[Neely2005]

In fairness to AT, I do recall the Star interviewing Braley back in the fall, in which he did mention he had potential buyers "kicking the tires"...I am unable to provide a link but I am certain I read those words.

Yeah IIRC he said that there were multiple groups interested besides MLSE including a community ownership inquiry.

[T-Bone]

In fairness to AT, I do recall the Star interviewing Braley back in the fall, in which he did mention he had potential buyers "kicking the tires"...I am unable to provide a link but I am certain I read those words.

People still take Braley at face value? I was inquiring about a link to a reliable source. When is stadium construction starting in Vaughan, or Markham, or Oakville, wherever?

[gilthethrill]

People still take Braley at face value? I was inquiring about a link to a reliable source. When is stadium construction starting in Vaughan, or Markham, or Oakville, wherever?

No, I don't take Braley at face value. He has ruined the Argos. His supposed asking price of $10 million is asinine. You were asking for a source, which happened to be Braley.

[argotom]

Most of you make fun of the man, all I know without Mr. Braley there is no league and especially for the East.
There has never been a bounced cheque from him, frugal or not.

[T-Bone]

Most of you make fun of the man, all I know without Mr. Braley there is no league and especially for the East.
There has never been a bounced cheque from him, frugal or not.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what Braley has done for the league and for keeping the Argos a float. At the same time why is he keeping the Argos a float? Is it to save the team? If that's the case how can he not see that MLSE is the only owner knocking on his door currently that has the resources to turn things around and keep the Argos from sinking.

Braley's done nothing beyond keeping the team a float and at this point it is becoming detrimental. How much longer can the Argos keep going like this? If Braley wants $10M for the team he needs to create $10M worth of value but his current bare bones approach is not working and will not work. His logic seems extremely flawed.

[Rich]

Getting facility fee/ticket surcharge money could easily bring in at minimum $1 million that the Argos currently don't see, plus parking revenue which the Argos don't currently see and concession revenue which is big business now in all leagues.

Eliminate the SkyDome rental. That's $1 million per season right there. Profits from concessions and parking = $2 million per season as a conservative estimate. Argos would be at least $3 million ahead at BMO before even selling a ticket.

Yes, I am. Actually I am not factoring in a grey cup because one has not been awarded yet. And even if one were awarded it would be once over eight to 10 years, not sustainable revenue.

If the cost of bringing MLSE into the CFL family was, say, three BMO Grey Cups in six years, do you think the BOG would object? I don't. MLSE's participation in the CFL is at least that valuable.