Week 3: Toronto Argonauts @ BC Lions, July 7 2016 - Game Thread

[Argo57]

The one stat, more than any other, that determines who wins and who loses football games is turnovers. If you don't turnover the football, you probably have a 90%-95% chance of winning. I will take those odds any day and that is good offence IMO.

I would add penalties to that equation as well Ravi, to which the Argonauts are greatly improved so far this season.

[Neely2005]

Overall, Ray's performance was impressive in the BC game. It wasn't mistake-free though: most importantly, two of his throws were flat-out dropped by BC defenders. (And was one a pick-6 ? ... memory kaput.) So he did have good fortune.

Ray has thrown 1 interception so far this season. It was against Hamilton.

[Johno27]

Ray has thrown 1 interception so far this season. It was against Hamilton.

...and conveniently tipped into S. Lawrence's awaiting mitts. And the close calls such as the two in BC, IMO, are not a reflection of Ray forcing the ball, rather it would seem to have occurred as a result of some breakdown somewhere else along the line.

If the Argos can keep their collective nose clean in the turnover battle and in the avoidance of penalties I expect they will win far more than they lose. The overall percentages certainly reflect that.

Trevor Harris has been the beneficiary of excellent protection in Ottawa so far. I am very curious to see how he will respond, and how his stats will look, if the Argos' front seven makes his life miserable on Wednesday.

On the other hand, I wonder if Ricky Ray will face a tougher defense than the one he managed to survive in BC.

[R.J]

I would add penalties to that equation as well Ravi, to which the Argonauts are greatly improved so far this season.

I agree, and I'll give credit where it's due. The discipline under Milanovich this season has been a major improvement over years past.

[AngeloV]

Overall, Ray's performance was impressive in the BC game. It wasn't mistake-free though: most importantly, two of his throws were flat-out dropped by BC defenders. (And was one a pick-6 ? ... memory kaput.) So he did have good fortune.

I agree the one in the endzone was a mistake. The Swing screen was not on Ray. Wallace Miles missed his block on Phillips on that. The QB does not make the read on that play. It is assumed that the blocks up front will be made by the receivers.

[argolio]

This is why Toronto rarely has winning teams. We have no gratitude for the talent we currently have. Can someone tell me what happened to Kessel after we ran him out of town. Anyone?

Without being bothered by Simmons and Feschuk, got to eat hot dogs in peace, and won a Cup.

[argotom]

Trevor Harris is the best QB in the CFL right now.
Note the italics? We'll have to see what transpires the rest of the way, beginning with a fascinating QB duel next Wednesday, but so far his shoot out the lights standard of play hasn't been bettered.

There's no justification (besides sour grapes) for the short-selling of this QB that occurs habitually on this board.

Having said this - big picture - parting ways with both Collaros and Harris won't matter in the least IF
(1) Ray and the team around him are successful as long as he starts.
(2) At least one of Ray's understudies, as Argonauts starter, turns out as well as Collaros and Harris have.

I agree with you.
Starting with Zach and now Trevor, the naysayers here are doing their best to justify Ricky's status here.
Like some others, I do not have to repeat how for me management was stupid to let both go.
Each have come out with their new teams and so far it's early, but Harris like Collaros last year is having an MOP type season.
Ray has not done anything since the GC.

[Scooter McCray]

I agree with you.
Starting with Zach and now Trevor, the naysayers here are doing their best to justify Ricky's status here.
Like some others, I do not have to repeat how for me management was stupid to let both go.
Each have come out with their new teams and so far it's early, but Harris like Collaros last year is having an MOP type season.
Ray has not done anything since the GC.

I'm disappointed we have not been able to keep the young guys but to say Ray hasn't done anything is wrong. In 2013 he had an MOP season over 5,000 yards in 17 games and led them to first in the East. He then had injuries which he played through and was still respectable without full arm strength. I have not closed the book on him and have seen progression with two solid road type wins in hostile environments. I am hoping we can see some home field type of offence coming up. IE explosiveness and sustained drives with crisper passing and no more knock downs and passes falling short of receivers. This to me will be an indication of his arm strength now back to normal.

[R.J]

Ray has never thrown for 5,000 yards as an Argo. The last time he did it was in 2008 as an Eskimo. 2013 Ray was injured for half the year and that's when we got to see Colaros' impressive road trip. In 2014 Ray played 17 game and lead the league in passing yards (just over 4,500 yards) and it should be noted he did so on a wonky arm - he injured his shoulder early in the season.

[Scooter McCray]

Ray has never thrown for 5,000 yards as an Argo. The last time he did it was in 2008 as an Eskimo. 2013 Ray was injured for half the year and that's when we got to see Colaros' impressive road trip. In 2014 Ray played 17 game and lead the league in passing yards (just over 4,500 yards) and it should be noted he did so on a wonky arm - he injured his shoulder early in the season.

You are correct. I got my years mixed up. He was in the conversation of MOP and was the East nominee for MOP in 2014 and he did that on the wonky shoulder. Ray is not washed up, but he is at his most immobile now at 36, and requires first rate protection. But if he has that and if he has his arm strength back (TBD IMO), then he can still win another championship because he can read and react against most defences.

[AngeloV]

Listening to Barker on the radio today, the Argos tried to extend Harris last year while Ray was injured. It was Harris and his representatives that turned the Argos down. It was the same scenario with Collaros previously. Sounds like the only way either of these guys were going to sign with the Argos was if they released Ray first and guaranteed them starting status. Had the Argos done that, which would have been a gamble based on sample size of the others, and they tuned out to be not that great, people would be screaming. They were in a no win situation.

IMO, the Argos were right not to release Ray, and if it meant losing those guys in the process, then so be it.

[ArgoRavi]

Ray has never thrown for 5,000 yards as an Argo. The last time he did it was in 2008 as an Eskimo. 2013 Ray was injured for half the year and that's when we got to see Colaros' impressive road trip. In 2014 Ray played 17 game and lead the league in passing yards (just over 4,500 yards) and it should be noted he did so on a wonky arm - he injured his shoulder early in the season.

Ray was the East MOP in 2014 which was the last full season he played. As you mention, it is remarkable that he put up those numbers given that he was playing hurt.

[Argo]

Listening to Barker on the radio today, the Argos tried to extend Harris last year while Ray was injured. It was Harris and his representatives that turned the Argos down. It was the same scenario with Collaros previously. Sounds like the only way either of these guys were going to sign with the Argos was if they released Ray first and guaranteed them starting status. Had the Argos done that, which would have been a gamble based on sample size of the others, and they tuned out to be not that great, people would be screaming. They were in a no win situation.

IMO, the Argos were right not to release Ray, and if it meant losing those guys in the process, then so be it.

Yes, it was a bit of a no-win situation. Harris, in particular, probably felt that he (a) should leave, for events that we've hashed over, and (b) had to leave, because he's 30 years old; Ray is years younger than Buriss.

[ArgoRavi]

Listening to Barker on the radio today, the Argos tried to extend Harris last year while Ray was injured. It was Harris and his representatives that turned the Argos down. It was the same scenario with Collaros previously. Sounds like the only way either of these guys were going to sign with the Argos was if they released Ray first and guaranteed them starting status. Had the Argos done that, which would have been a gamble based on sample size of the others, and they tuned out to be not that great, people would be screaming. They were in a no win situation.

IMO, the Argos were right not to release Ray, and if it meant losing those guys in the process, then so be it.

This is comparable to what happened back in 1992. The Argos had to make a choice between the hall-of-famer Matt Dunigan and Rickey Foggie and, frankly, I thought at the time that they had made the right choice given how well Foggie had played in 1990 and 1991 when Dunigan was injured. However, as we all know now, they made a bad choice that sent the franchise into a tailspin for the next few years.

In this decade, they decided to go with the hall-of-famer instead and it doesn't look like a bad decision so far.

[AngeloV]

Ray was the East MOP in 2014 which was the last full season he played. As you mention, it is remarkable that he put up those numbers given that he was playing hurt.

And I'll never forget to brutal receiving core he had to play with in the Labour Day game that season. Doug Flutie wouldn't have been successful with the group that day.

[R.J]

Listening to Barker on the radio today, the Argos tried to extend Harris last year while Ray was injured. It was Harris and his representatives that turned the Argos down. It was the same scenario with Collaros previously. Sounds like the only way either of these guys were going to sign with the Argos was if they released Ray first and guaranteed them starting status. Had the Argos done that, which would have been a gamble based on sample size of the others, and they tuned out to be not that great, people would be screaming. They were in a no win situation.

IMO, the Argos were right not to release Ray, and if it meant losing those guys in the process, then so be it.

Didn't Harris originally want $400-450k ?
I can understand why Barker was hesitant on that; I even mentioned to be paid as an elite you should play like it. Winnipeg is learning that lesson now with Willy.
No comment on the Collaros bit.

Ray was the East MOP in 2014 which was the last full season he played. As you mention, it is remarkable that he put up those numbers given that he was playing hurt.

Yes he was. Ray deserves a lot of credit for 2014; his shoulder was injured, rarely had his starting receivers (I think Owens and Durie only played around 3-5 games together), and our offensive line was poor.

And I'll never forget to brutal receiving core he had to play with in the Labour Day game that season. Doug Flutie wouldn't have been successful with the group that day.

All I remember is Brazill, Adjei and Darvin Adams. IIRC Durie was injured, but on the 46. Owens, Chiles and Barnes out on the IR.

[AngeloV]

All I remember is Brazill, Adjei and Darvin Adams. IIRC Durie was injured, but on the 46. Owens, Chiles and Barnes out on the IR.

Trent Guy was in our starting receiving core. Enough said.

[argotom]

Listening to Barker on the radio today, the Argos tried to extend Harris last year while Ray was injured. It was Harris and his representatives that turned the Argos down. It was the same scenario with Collaros previously. Sounds like the only way either of these guys were going to sign with the Argos was if they released Ray first and guaranteed them starting status. Had the Argos done that, which would have been a gamble based on sample size of the others, and they tuned out to be not that great, people would be screaming. They were in a no win situation.

IMO, the Argos were right not to release Ray, and if it meant losing those guys in the process, then so be it.

I am not so sure this had anything to do with the contract perhaps tabled or not by the Argos.
Ultimately it may have had everything to do with the way he was treated by the HC for the the playoff game.
Giving Ray the start against the Cats when clearly everyone knew he was still injured over Harris could have been an indicator and ultimately a slap in the face to him.

[R.J]

Trent Guy was in our starting receiving core. Enough said.

I remember Guy was on the team returning kicks - wasn't sure if he was starting on offence as well, but yeah enough said lol.

[Johno27]

I remember Guy was on the team returning kicks - wasn't sure if he was starting on offence as well, but yeah enough said lol.

Just to confirm, he was one of the starting receivers. In fact, Ray threw at 20-yard TD pass to Guy for Argos' only touchdown in that forgettable game.