August 23, 2015: Ottawa RedBlacks vs. Toronto Argonauts

[gilthethrill]

Thanks for the info on Miles and Jones, everyone. If Miles can indeed play at a high level (and he seems OK so far), Rolle will start to look pretty unnecessary.

I think Rolle will be around as he is a monster on ST. As for Jones not playing every snap, I was at the game Sunday & a couple of astute fans sitting just to my left thought that since the Argos have a short week, Jones was getting some rest, allowing Miles to get into the game (he contributed too).

[paulwoods13]

So, Gill, which NAT on the current 46 would you have cut in order to keep Pfeffer?

[mchesher03]

hey I thought Pfeffer did a great job filling in but why would you ever keep a backup kicker given our tight enough of as it 46 man roster size?

man I had forgot how much fun it is watching swazye waters boom punts - man he has a leg.

[AngeloV]

Unfortunately, I'm not exactly in a lucrative line of work (ask Angelo).

LOL...Don't worry...by the time you become an old hermit crab like some of us, you will be able to buy any jerseys you want.

[Argo]

That's not how I remember it. I think a search would find at least one suggestion that maybe we should keep Pfeffer because waters is allegedly injury prone and an INT.

Um... keeping Pfeffer around "if at all possible" is not the same as "retaining Pfeffer in preference to Waters".

Also, for the statistically inclined, I wonder: what is the fraction Waters' games played / Argonauts games played, since Waters was signed?

[AngeloV]

Um... keeping Pfeffer around "if at all possible" is not the same as "retaining Pfeffer in preference to Waters".

Also, for the statistically inclined, I wonder: what is the fraction Waters' games played / Argonauts games played, since Waters was signed?

I'm sure Pfeffer was offered a PR spot. This stuff happens all the time in the CFL. Why would anyone want to stop a guy from gaining full time employment in the league if you have no immediate plans for him? Honestly, Pfeffer did a fine job, but has a ways to go. I don't think his punting is as good as some on here think it is. The game in Hamilton proved that. He was asked to punt directionally so as not to give Banks room for returns. His first punt was deep, down the middle and returned for about 25 yards. The rest of his punts were shanked as he tried to kick to the sidelines. He was also a 75% FG kicker, which today is considered average.

[Will]

Who knows what sort of overtures were made to Pfeffer before he was released?

[1argoholic]

Just look at how Waters BOOMS punts giving the coverage guys time to run down and actually cover. Pfeffer did a good job for sure but he'll end up on his feet somewhere. The guys a good athlete chasing a few guys down and making great tackles.

[Argo]

I'm sure Pfeffer was offered a PR spot. This stuff happens all the time in the CFL. Why would anyone want to stop a guy from gaining full time employment in the league if you have no immediate plans for him? Honestly, Pfeffer did a fine job, but has a ways to go. I don't think his punting is as good as some on here think it is. The game in Hamilton proved that. He was asked to punt directionally so as not to give Banks room for returns. His first punt was deep, down the middle and returned for about 25 yards. The rest of his punts were shanked as he tried to kick to the sidelines. He was also a 75% FG kicker, which today is considered average.

All true, save only that Milanovich said that there was "no room" on the PR for Pfeffer, so I assume that wasn't an option. Indeed, Pferrer is better off not being a quasi-Argo.
Should the Argos again need to find and sign a substitute Canadian kicker, as usual we'll file it under "stuff happens, so deal with it".
Meanwhile, and hopefully right until SW leaves for the NFL (which seems very probable), let's just enjoy the CFL's premier kicker.

[R.J]

I'm sure Pfeffer was offered a PR spot. This stuff happens all the time in the CFL. Why would anyone want to stop a guy from gaining full time employment in the league if you have no immediate plans for him? Honestly, Pfeffer did a fine job, but has a ways to go. I don't think his punting is as good as some on here think it is. The game in Hamilton proved that. He was asked to punt directionally so as not to give Banks room for returns. His first punt was deep, down the middle and returned for about 25 yards. The rest of his punts were shanked as he tried to kick to the sidelines. He was also a 75% FG kicker, which today is considered average.

Swayze in 2012 was a 74.4% fg percentage, 2013 - 72%, 2014 - 90.4
Punts = 2012 - 44.8, 2013 - 46.5, 2014 - 47.7
Pfeffer = 75% FG, 44.1 punts, stats are almost exactly equal to Swayze's first year.

Kickers usually take some time to develop, Grant Shaw in Edmonton is a great example.

[ArgoRavi]

Swayze in 2012 was a 74.4% fg percentage, 2013 - 72%, 2014 - 90.4
Punts = 2012 - 44.8, 2013 - 46.5, 2014 - 47.7
Pfeffer = 75% FG, 44.1 punts, stats are almost exactly equal to Swayze's first year.

Kickers usually take some time to develop, Grant Shaw in Edmonton is a great example.

Shaw is still a pretty erratic kicker today. His coach doesn't seem to have confidence in him to make the clutch kicks. The Argos found Waters and Pfeffer. If anything happens to Waters again, I am sure that they will find a competent enough replacement.

[R.J]

Shaw is still a pretty erratic kicker today. His coach doesn't seem to have confidence in him to make the clutch kicks. The Argos found Waters and Pfeffer. If anything happens to Waters again, I am sure that they will find a competent enough replacement.

I respectfully disagree, Shaw up until last season was extremely erratic, couldn't kick a game winning field goal if his life depended on it, however last season that seemed to change and up until the Als game 2 weeks ago, Shaw was on a tear, going 17 for 17 this season (was 1 for 4 against the Als).

Swayze turned into a good kicker, he wasn't early on. The same goes for Pfeffer, while inconsistent at times, proved he has loads of potential. Sean Whyte is be available, the problem there is that IMO Whyte has a weak leg and doesn't seem to have the "hang time" needed in this season's CFL. The Stamps have found a way to keep 3 kickers, the Argos should have found a way to keep Pfeffer in case of the inevitable injury of Waters IMO.

Edit: I'm not disagreeing that Jones seems to have lost a bit of faith in Shaw as that's been evident as of late, I just feel that Shaw is nowhere near the erratic kicker he once was. 85% efficiency the last two seasons is nothing to sneeze at IMO.

[Gill The Thrill]

So, Gill, which NAT on the current 46 would you have cut in order to keep Pfeffer?

Why does it have to be a NAT? this is another thing that freaks me about coaches in the CFL. Those are the maximum international or American players allowed. If you scout Canadian players properly, there is no reason having one more Canadian and one less American than permitted should put you at a disadvantage. It in fact means it should be an advantage because you can play you're best players regardless of juggling the ratio should there be an injury. Good teams would be smart to stack up on good Canadians in any position. It's why Canadian QB's are never even put on the roster, because there is no advantage for a team to do so with regards to the ratio, despite the stiffs from Div III schools that really did not play a much higher calibre college ball than available at CIS.

I picked Agnew because he was imo, the slowest guy of all the DB's who's not quick enough to keep up with WR's in this league. His tackle figures on ST are not as good as Canadian LB James Yurichuk and god knows all the slack he gets on this board when he's pressed into action on defence. Agnew is not really much better, and he's an American. What's hurt the perception of the CFL in Ontario over the years is the perception that there are not enough good Canadians that play football, but in reality, the argument could easily be made that there are not enough good Americans, just cheaper ones and more plentiful of them to appease the coaches and owners.

As for having 2 kickers...if you're of a certain age it was quite common to have 2 full time kickers on the roster....Ilesic and Cutler in Edmonton, Cameron and Kennard in Winnipeg when they were the 2 best teams in the league. Clark and Ridgeway in Saskatchewan. I believe Calgary with Wally had P Tony Martino and PK Mark McLaughlin for several years.

[paulwoods13]

Why does it have to be a NAT? this is another thing that freaks me about coaches in the CFL. Those are the maximum international or American players allowed. If you scout Canadian players properly, there is no reason having one more Canadian and one less American than permitted should put you at a disadvantage. It in fact means it should be an advantage because you can play you're best players regardless of juggling the ratio should there be an injury. Good teams would be smart to stack up on good Canadians in any position. It's why Canadian QB's are never even put on the roster, because there is no advantage for a team to do so with regards to the ratio, despite the stiffs from Div III schools that really did not play a much higher calibre college ball than available at CIS.

I picked Agnew because he was imo, the slowest guy of all the DB's who's not quick enough to keep up with WR's in this league. His tackle figures on ST are not as good as Canadian LB James Yurichuk and god knows all the slack he gets on this board when he's pressed into action on defence. Agnew is not really much better, and he's an American. What's hurt the perception of the CFL in Ontario over the years is the perception that there are not enough good Canadians that play football, but in reality, the argument could easily be made that there are not enough good Americans, just cheaper ones and more plentiful of them to appease the coaches and owners.

As for having 2 kickers...if you're of a certain age it was quite common to have 2 full time kickers on the roster....Ilesic and Cutler in Edmonton, Cameron and Kennard in Winnipeg when they were the 2 best teams in the league. Clark and Ridgeway in Saskatchewan. I believe Calgary with Wally had P Tony Martino and PK Mark McLaughlin for several years.

So you'd have lost Agnew who is likely now a starter if Isaac is out, in order to keep a guy who will never play except in the event of injury.

As for the two-kicker system, that is indeed true. And rosters were smaller which meant one backup d-lineman, one backup o-lineman, many starters on special teams, etc. I actually liked that system and would prefer a 38-man roster to today's bloated rosters with situation substitutes all over the place. But since we have 46 and 44, why put yourself at a competitive disadvantage if you don't have to? And the Argos definitely don't have to because Pfeffer is not a better FG kicker, punter or kickoff specialist than Waters.

I respectfully disagree, Shaw up until last season was extremely erratic, couldn't kick a game winning field goal if his life depended on it, however last season that seemed to change and up until the Als game 2 weeks ago, Shaw was on a tear, going 17 for 17 this season (was 1 for 4 against the Als).

Swayze turned into a good kicker, he wasn't early on. The same goes for Pfeffer, while inconsistent at times, proved he has loads of potential. Sean Whyte is be available, the problem there is that IMO Whyte has a weak leg and doesn't seem to have the "hang time" needed in this season's CFL. The Stamps have found a way to keep 3 kickers, the Argos should have found a way to keep Pfeffer in case of the inevitable injury of Waters IMO.

Edit: I'm not disagreeing that Jones seems to have lost a bit of faith in Shaw as that's been evident as of late, I just feel that Shaw is nowhere near the erratic kicker he once was. 85% efficiency the last two seasons is nothing to sneeze at IMO.

Waters was an ace by his second season. If we knew Pfeffer would be that good by his second, maybe there would be value in keeping him over Waters. But even you concede that Shaw was erratic for his first four seasons. Would you really want to wait that long for Pfeffer?

[Gill The Thrill]

Waters was an ace by his second season. If we knew Pfeffer would be that good by his second, maybe there would be value in keeping him over Waters. But even you concede that Shaw was erratic for his first four seasons. Would you really want to wait that long for Pfeffer?

Pfeffer has shown the ability to be clutch in several of his kicks in his very short pro career. He's learning curve is way higher than Grant Shaw's ever was. I was not a big Grant Shaw fan and thought he was just simply erratic throughout his entire kicking career. I'd rather Pfeffer now, a player that's played 5 games than have Grant Shaw who is a veteran in the league.

Based on Pfeffer's learning curve that we've seen through his 5 game stint, he has the potential no doubt. This is why I was in favour of keeping him around? Don't get me wrong, I like Swayze Waters and was a pretty big supporter of his since he got here, but he now has a history of having sustained a groin pull and a hip flexor. These are injuries that can affect the kicking motion, the hip flexor is fine great, but a groin pull is something that can always flare up as anyone whose ever had one knows, and that would definitely affect the kicking motion in an instant.

[Gill The Thrill]

One of my posts seems to have disappeared...anyway Paul...neither Isaac nor Agnew was listed as a starter in the depth chart. They also have Black and Gabriel who've started before. Gabriel can move to the half or corner in an emergency situation and you would not lose anything compared to Agnew imo. They also have Brendan Smith who started 16 games last year and made 37 tackles on the PR. A rookie from Virginia Tech in Dedrick Bonner also on the PR and another DB in rookie Shane Herbert. How many extra DB's do we need in the organization. That's why I think Agnew is the most expendable of the 46 on the roster now. In my estimation I find him too slow to cover most receivers in the league. He can't play the corner at all and can't make up ground as was seen in that Saskatchewan game when Nic Demski outran him badly after making a catch.

[ArgoRavi]

Has anyone considered that Pfeffer would much rather being playing in Ottawa rather than sitting as a backup in Toronto?

[paulwoods13]

One of my posts seems to have disappeared...anyway Paul...neither Isaac nor Agnew was listed as a starter in the depth chart. They also have Black and Gabriel who've started before. Gabriel can move to the half or corner in an emergency situation and you would not lose anything compared to Agnew imo. They also have Brendan Smith who started 16 games last year and made 37 tackles on the PR. A rookie from Virginia Tech in Dedrick Bonner also on the PR and another DB in rookie Shane Herbert. How many extra DB's do we need in the organization. That's why I think Agnew is the most expendable of the 46 on the roster now. In my estimation I find him too slow to cover most receivers in the league. He can't play the corner at all and can't make up ground as was seen in that Saskatchewan game when Nic Demski outran him badly after making a catch.

Isaac has been the starter on every depth chart all season. I'm not a fan of Agnew as a safety but the coaches have obviously decided he's the best backup we have for Isaac. Gabriel is a starting safety and I have no interest in moving him to half or corner. Herbert is not a rookie but a somewhat fringe backup in his third season with the team. I do think Brandon smith is a good depth guy at halfback but we're not looking for halfbacks. This discussion is about whether the Argos should have let Agnew go to keep Pfeffer. Obviously I don't and neither did barker or Milanovich.

[argolio]

Has anyone considered that Pfeffer would much rather being playing in Ottawa rather than sitting as a backup in Toronto?

Keep your common sense out of here, Ravi!

[Stevoman]

That penalty on McDonald not only cost the Redblacks the game, but also his own job. Cut today.