July 26, 2014: Toronto Argonauts vs. Saskatchewan Roughriders

[294life]

I'll bet the Als fans are saying the same thing as you just said gilthethrill and I don't blame them.

not this als fan.

[1argoholic]

Someone once again mentioned issues with Rod Black. No friggin kidding and I'm so sick of this NFL kiss ass mentioning every player in every game that he calls who's was basically drafted by an NFL team. Hell even if some NFL flunky never saw the field. Why does he feel the need to kiss up? Teachers must have loved this brown noser when he was in school.

Sad to think that at this point Ottawa looks like a better team. WE are the worst team in the league after five games.

I do believe that a true two week bye helps teams teams who are coming off of it. Our bye coming up isn't even very long because we play our next game on a Tuesday. No real help for us.

[Argo57]

Any excuse is BS at this point of the year. Injuries are a easy scape goat. Why do i say that.......

They lost to an expansion team. With the number 1 rated player in the CFL at QB. I believe that with the backup QB playing last night they still would have been able to get 9 points. This team looks so unprepared by the coaching staff right now.

The Argonauts currently look no better than an expansion team right now.

[1argoholic]

Actually worse then an expansion team right now. Coaches, players and Barker have to share some blame right now. We have depth issues when your digging up Mo Mann who hasn't played in over a year. Thing is he looked fair last night.

[Argo57]

I think the intent was to evaluate Sewell's progress and give him a chance to test himself against a good D, and I have no problem with that approach. He didn't have a great game, but when I noticed him I thought he was almost as effective as Van Zeyl (who had a sub-par game).

Personnel-wise, I think our offense is built around two essential concepts.

1) 80% passing (lots of money invested in a top-flight pocket passer, and an OL full of tackle-types specialized at pass defence)
2) Receivers who can get separation and turn short passes into intermediate yardage, creating secondary opportunities for backfield receivers and the occasional long ball

Essential concept #2 is completely broken right now, for obvious reasons. So, is our offense poorly conceived? Maybe. We've done our best to bring in players (Coombs) who *might* be able to keep things going, but Owens and Durie are quite exceptional players. They're also somewhat injury-prone, and starting to near the end of their careers. For 2014, they'll heal up in a few weeks, and suddenly our offense will make sense again. However, I doubt that our current concept is sustainable. I suspect that the 2016 Argo offense will feature significantly different personnel and philosophies.

Wobbler your last points are very telling IMO.
Barkers inability to recruit top notch college talent to this franchise will kill us in a couple of years, especially if Ray starts to slide (which may already be happening) and your 2 best receivers (Owens and Durie) aren't with the club (either due to injury or retirement). Defence has been rebuilt 2 years running with almost no carry over in personnel which smacks of sub par talent evaluation and recruiting in the off season. The running back we have brought in are underwhelming for various reasons (talent and durability) yet as jerrym alluded to a back like Ford wasn't given a look. Another thing to consider, with our current clusterf*ck ownership and stadium situation players will look elsewhere to play rather than Toronto if given the choice.
I have been somewhat concerned with our head coaches demeanour the last couple of games, looks confused and defeated as did Brady and assistants in the booth. This organization is in an extremely bad spot right now and I suspect new ownership will clean house when they take over.

[Argo]

Good points and well-justified criticism from various posters.

This event was two CFL teams playing each other - not you and I forced into the ring with Lennox Lewis - so seeing yet another non-competitive, uninspired display is troublesome.

[Wobbler]

Wobbler your last points are very telling IMO.
Barkers inability to recruit top notch college talent to this franchise will kill us in a couple of years, especially if Ray starts to slide (which may already be happening) and your 2 best receivers (Owens and Durie) aren't with the club (either due to injury or retirement). Defence has been rebuilt 2 years running with almost no carry over in personnel which smacks of sub par talent evaluation and recruiting in the off season. The running back we have brought in are underwhelming for various reasons (talent and durability) yet as jerrym alluded to a back like Ford wasn't given a look. Another thing to consider, with our current clusterf*ck ownership and stadium situation players will look elsewhere to play rather than Toronto if given the choice.
I have been somewhat concerned with our head coaches demeanour the last couple of games, looks confused and defeated as did Brady and assistants in the booth. This organization is in an extremely bad spot right now and I suspect new ownership will clean house when they take over.

I don't think I agree with any of that. I don't see any evidence that we've been less successful recruiting than other teams, and I think our running backs are just fine. The reasons we can't run are that our line isn't built for it and Ray isn't a run threat. And as far as I can tell, our coaches look like most coaches do when things are going badly.

[Argo]

I think not bringing in Will Ford for a serious audition was certainly a mistake. He represents what would have been a very significant and dynamic upgrade to the running back that he could have replaced on the roster.

Statistics (including rushing average and kick-return performance): http://www.cfl.ca/roster/show/id/5445

[Argo57]

I don't think I agree with any of that. I don't see any evidence that we've been less successful recruiting than other teams, and I think our running backs are just fine. The reasons we can't run are that our line isn't built for it and Ray isn't a run threat. And as far as I can tell, our coaches look like most coaches do when things are going badly.

Sorry Wobbler
Teams that do a good job recruiting don't have to rebuild their team (particularly the D) year after year with no improvement.
If you in fact believe the Argonauts player development is on par with the other organizations then must have the worst coaching staff in the league!

[paulwoods13]

I don't think I agree with any of that. I don't see any evidence that we've been less successful recruiting than other teams, and I think our running backs are just fine. The reasons we can't run are that our line isn't built for it and Ray isn't a run threat. And as far as I can tell, our coaches look like most coaches do when things are going badly.

I'm basically in agreement with you, Wobbler. I don't think we should base our evaluation of Barker's success as a recruiter on one three-game stretch of bad football. I'm not happy with our defence to this point, especially the d-line and MLB, but it usually takes time for defences to gell, especially when they are filled with newbies and there are few established vets to show the way. It would be incredibly difficult for any organization to successfully and seamlessly replace its top five receivers, including two all-stars, especially in an offence where precision is paramount.

I do wonder, though, how much the uncertainty swirling around the team (attendance, ownership, Braley, MLSE, etc.) is affecting the coaches. Beth Waldman's sudden departure has to have affected members of the organization on a personal level, at least -- she was respected and liked by coaches, players, etc. Obviously any business requires that those remaining carry on when someone is let go, no matter how popular, but I get the feeling there is a lot of angst and maybe dissension in the ranks. I note how many times Chris Rudge has said to reporters, "I can't speak for Mr. Braley." Makes me wonder if even he, the CEO, doesn't know what Braley is doing or planning to do. Not to hijack this thread about a game, but at this point I think there is a link between the off-field mess and the current (hopefully temporary) on-field mess.

Milanovich has proven in the past he will cut a high profile player. Perhaps Emry gets shown the door.

Yes, but in the case of Cory Boyd (who tweeted out his farewell to Canada today, incidentally), SM was cutting a guy in a position that is relatively easy to fill. As a NAT who has proven capable of starting (in the past, at least), Emry is a much more valuable asset than an INT RB who refused to block for his QB. If he was cut, he'd have several offers to sign elsewhere. If we decide we're replacing him at MLB, we need to either get something in return or keep him on the roster and get some value out of him as a special teamer. Neither is a great solution -- obviously the best scenario is that he suddenly starts playing like the Shea Emry of 2012.

[ArgoRavi]

I'm basically in agreement with you, Wobbler. I don't think we should base our evaluation of Barker's success as a recruiter on one three-game stretch of bad football. I'm not happy with our defence to this point, especially the d-line and MLB, but it usually takes time for defences to gell, especially when they are filled with newbies and there are few established vets to show the way. It would be incredibly difficult for any organization to successfully and seamlessly replace its top five receivers, including two all-stars, especially in an offence where precision is paramount.

I do wonder, though, how much the uncertainty swirling around the team (attendance, ownership, Braley, MLSE, etc.) is affecting the coaches. Beth Waldman's sudden departure has to have affected members of the organization on a personal level, at least -- she was respected and liked by coaches, players, etc. Obviously any business requires that those remaining carry on when someone is let go, no matter how popular, but I get the feeling there is a lot of angst and maybe dissension in the ranks. I note how many times Chris Rudge has said to reporters, "I can't speak for Mr. Braley." Makes me wonder if even he, the CEO, doesn't know what Braley is doing or planning to do. Not to hijack this thread about a game, but at this point I think there is a link between the off-field mess and the current (hopefully temporary) on-field mess.

All excellent points, Paul. Regarding Rudge, there has been a rumour floating about - it was mentioned in one recent newspaper article - that Rudge and Braley are not getting along. I think that Rudge, like the rest of us, is frustrated with Braley holding up the sale of the team to MLSE.

Does anyone remember back to the off-season prior to the 2010 season when the Argos wanted to hire Milanovich as head coach? At that time Milanovich declined and one of the main reasons given was because of the uncertainty at the ownership level in Toronto. This ownership situation needs to be straightened out a.s.a.p. or this team could lose a lot of good people after this season.

[Argo57]

I'm basically in agreement with you, Wobbler. I don't think we should base our evaluation of Barker's success as a recruiter on one three-game stretch of bad football. I'm not happy with our defence to this point, especially the d-line and MLB, but it usually takes time for defences to gell, especially when they are filled with newbies and there are few established vets to show the way. It would be incredibly difficult for any organization to successfully and seamlessly replace its top five receivers, including two all-stars, especially in an offence where precision is paramount.

I do wonder, though, how much the uncertainty swirling around the team (attendance, ownership, Braley, MLSE, etc.) is affecting the coaches. Beth Waldman's sudden departure has to have affected members of the organization on a personal level, at least -- she was respected and liked by coaches, players, etc. Obviously any business requires that those remaining carry on when someone is let go, no matter how popular, but I get the feeling there is a lot of angst and maybe dissension in the ranks. I note how many times Chris Rudge has said to reporters, "I can't speak for Mr. Braley." Makes me wonder if even he, the CEO, doesn't know what Braley is doing or planning to do. Not to hijack this thread about a game, but at this point I think there is a link between the off-field mess and the current (hopefully temporary) on-field mess.

Defensive talent was an issue all of last year as well, some of that debacle also fell to Chris Jones but Barker is the man in charge and so far the D is not much better. We all get the injury issue on offence.
You are dead on regarding the organizational rot that currently exists within the Argos, moral must be at an all time low, problem is I still believe we have a really good young coach but how long does he want to hang around if things don't change above him, maybe we are seeing the reason so many good assistants and player personnel guys moved on to other teams.

[gilthethrill]

I think not bringing in Will Ford for a serious audition was certainly a mistake. He represents what would have been a very significant and dynamic upgrade to the running back that he could have replaced on the roster.

Statistics (including rushing average and kick-return performance): http://www.cfl.ca/roster/show/id/5445

With due respect to Will Ford (who we cut 3 years ago after a brief stay), he will not have a game like that the rest of the year. The Argos are down right now....really down and the Riders took full advantage of it.

[Argo57]

With due respect to Will Ford (who we cut 3 years ago after a brief stay), he will not have a game like that the rest of the year. The Argos are down right now....really down and the Riders took full advantage of it.

Hopefully what goes around comes around for the Riders!!

[paulwoods13]

No consistent ground game and no vertical passing game.

Can't argue either point, but the stats are rather interesting. Sask ran the ball only six times more than Tor (22 to 16), and threw only 19 passes (to Toronto's 47). Amazing that a team could win by 28 points while running off 22 fewer plays than the losing team.

[AngeloV]

You are dead on regarding the organizational rot that currently exists within the Argos, moral must be at an all time low, problem is I still believe we have a really good young coach but how long does he want to hang around if things don't change above him, maybe we are seeing the reason so many good assistants and player personnel guys moved on to other teams.

I agree 100%.

Overall, I'm not too down on the defence right now. Last night's score looks bad, but the Argos lost the field position battle big time. After the first drive and up until the last big run when the game was out of hand, I honestly didn't think they were bad against the run last night. Also got in Durant's face on a few occasions. The 2 short field TD drives to start a game is very difficult to rebound from, but I think the Argos D did so. Problem was that while they were shutting down the Riders, all our drives ended up in FG's.

Only really bad play IMO, was going with a 3 man rush, and bringing a 4th late on 2nd and 15. I don't have a problem doing that and playing zone, but when Durant hit Smith on the deep post to the 3 yard line, despite not rushing extra bodies, the secondary was playing man. You can see that on the cross between the slot and Smith, as the DB's each went with the guy they were covering. Almost as if the Argos were expecting the underneath route or screen pass and dropped the LB's but kept the secondary in man to man. Made no sense to me.

[Wobbler]

Sorry Wobbler
Teams that do a good job recruiting don't have to rebuild their team (particularly the D) year after year with no improvement.

Our new recruits certainly haven't been dazzling so far, but most of them have at least shown flashes. I really think it's just too soon to say.

As for the D rebuild, what choice did we have? Our coordinator and his staff left, and eight players retired or were lost to free agency.

[ArgoFan1]

Can't argue either point, but the stats are rather interesting. Sask ran the ball only six times more than Tor (22 to 16), and threw only 19 passes (to Toronto's 47). Amazing that a team could win by 28 points while running off 22 fewer plays than the losing team.

Not that amazing, when most of the Argo plays were 1 yard passes !! Ricky Ray can hit 100% of his passes every game, but if he isn't going up the field, what is the point??

[Stevoman]

Defensive talent was an issue all of last year as well, some of that debacle also fell to Chris Jones but Barker is the man in charge and so far the D is not much better. We all get the injury issue on offence.
You are dead on regarding the organizational rot that currently exists within the Argos, moral must be at an all time low, problem is I still believe we have a really good young coach but how long does he want to hang around if things don't change above him, maybe we are seeing the reason so many good assistants and player personnel guys moved on to other teams.

In 2013, I would say that the problem with the defence was Jone's ego got the better of him and he believed in his system so much that he believed he could replace many of the Grey Cup winning players. Too much change is not a good thing which is also the problem for this year although this year we didn't have as much of a choice. I agree that organizationally we don't look to be in a great place but as Rudge mentioned, a new stadium and this team could be in the black in 2 years. I too see a sale to MLSE as our only real option right now but I think the players for the most part are concentrating on football and aren't too affected by the potential distraction. Come the off season though, that's a different story and the lack of clarity could lead to an exodus of quality personnel.

[ArgoRedneck]

As I watch the CFL this year it looks to me that the Argos were almost a farm team for the rest of the league. Lots of ex Argos playing well. And the ex Argo coaches are doing really well. I look at the Argo staff on the sidelines and for lack of a better way to put it, are rejects from other teams??? I do not include coach "M" in that group though.

If the "timing is off" with Ray and the "new" recievers then sit him and keep him healthy until his go to guys are back (I don't buy into that BS though). Let the back up QB get 9 points.

Don't know how you all are with friends but its tough to be a Argo person right now. The saying "If you can't take a joke don't be a joke" is so true for me right now, cause I'm get'in lots of abuse.