"If I was Michael Copeland" - Ideas for Argos off-the-field 2017 Thread

[RB957]

Michael has always been responsive to me and frankly is the only reason I am giving this organization a chance - but even this goodwill is starting to dwindle --- taking away 8 free tickets is simply causing a STH to pay more and get less -- all the fancy math aside, I know that paying x for 22 tickets (11 x pair of seats) is not the same as paying x for 30 tickets --- how we chose to use the tickets is up to the customer - it is something we weighed as part of our decision to renew, or at least it was for me and will be going forward, if it returns or not. The merch discount is ridiculous as it is cheaper to buy in stadium than online so that discount is effectively useless for anyone that actually attends games and buys merch at the stadium - you know, the place where you want your customers to be?!

No loyalty discount --- ummmm do we have too many STH that keeping them isn't really important -- last year we lost 50% of them and we gave a loyalty discount to keep the dwindling few --- now that we are even more desperate -- no discount?! ok, thanks for making me valued for staying ---- less perks, same prices, no loyalty discount --- interesting strategy to get people on board.....do they really think a fluky GC win like in 2012 (at 9-9) will boost sales, it won't, 2013 proved that, ST sales went down that year......the only reason I saw any new people in the stadium this year was in the discounted 50 yard line $10-$15 seats on the east side - not exactly encouraging me to buy ST when I can sit better for cheaper for most games (I think 5/9 games had those prices that were easily attainable) ---- why anyone would spend beyond $199-$299 for a ST is beyond me -- from an economic standpoint you can get similar seats for way less than the $1000++ (per pair) they are charging --- the intangible benefits of having the same seats and knowing your neighbors will dwindle when your neighbors have left and the expensive sections are empty to be moved into....

You have hit the nail on the head for me... I am one of those spending (quite a bit) beyond $299 for my ST's. At some point, given everything that is going on, you have to ask the question... is it worth that? Like I posted earlier, I will likely renew because I love my seats, but they are not making it easy right now.

[paulwoods13]

The flex tickets was a nice perk and if used the way they intended, it would bring new customers into the stadium to experience what STHs experience. I'm doing it that way -- giving my flex tix to people who don't ordinarily go to games. (I'm distributing all of mine for the Oct. 21 game.) I can accept that it was a one-time thing to expose more people to the product, so I'm not inclined to rip them for taking away something we never had before this year. What I'm not getting is why they aren't making tickets more attractive to new buyers by pricing them lower. The line from the meeting they held for members of this forum -- that they would rather have 25,000 attendees at low prices than 16,000 at high prices -- has seemingly been repudiated by this pricing strategy.

I think they should have done four things for 2018:

1. Lower prices across the board -- not necessarily gigantic decreases in every section, but significant enough to make an impact
2. Drastically reduced prices in the lower east side -- do everything possible to get those baking-hot seats filled so cameras aren't pointing at empty seats
3. Fewer price points, like five or six maximum
4. For those who bought STs this year (the most loyal, important customers they have) really sweeten the deal in a big way if we renew. Like maybe offer an extra seat for the same price we paid this year, or offer 10 flex tickets, or offer half-price if we add more tickets to our order, or something else that makes this small group of diehards feel special and even more bonded with the org

Bottom line -- there are ways to get more people into a beautiful stadium to expose them to a great product in a tremendous atmosphere. I don't think continuing to price the product above what the market has borne is one of them.

[RB957]

But this was a one time thing. It's not like we got this offer for the last 10 years and all of sudden, its gone. If you think about it, 8 seats (for free) is practically an entire season ticket package. I really don't think this should an expectation every year and the cause of our disappointment. What other team gives away so many tickets? I get the Argos are lacking in support but this is just a very generous give away that shouldn't be expected or demanded.

You would be right if the stadium was even half full. You would also be right if many other people were playing close to what we as STH's pay. Neither of those things happened (enough times during the year). I never viewed the flex tickets as a free gift. I viewed them as a reward for having paid full price in advance for a full season's worth of tickets. I also used all of mine to introduce new potential fans to the CFL experience. This cost the Argos nothing in reality because so many seats have gone unsold. So IMO, until such time as the situation changes, we should have had the option of utilizing those tickets. Perhaps if you don't use them you can get some other incentive. As it has been said, if single game tickets can be readily obtained for most any game at significantly lower prices, there have to be meaningful incentives to be a STH. That's just common sense.

[RB957]

The flex tickets was a nice perk and if used the way they intended, it would bring new customers into the stadium to experience what STHs experience. I'm doing it that way -- giving my flex tix to people who don't ordinarily go to games. (I'm distributing all of mine for the Oct. 21 game.) I can accept that it was a one-time thing to expose more people to the product, so I'm not inclined to rip them for taking away something we never had before this year. What I'm not getting is why they aren't making tickets more attractive to new buyers by pricing them lower. The line from the meeting they held for members of this forum -- that they would rather have 25,000 attendees at low prices than 16,000 at high prices -- has seemingly been repudiated by this pricing strategy.

I think they should have done four things for 2018:

1. Lower prices across the board -- not necessarily gigantic decreases in every section, but significant enough to make an impact
2. Drastically reduced prices in the lower east side -- do everything possible to get those baking-hot seats filled so cameras aren't pointing at empty seats
3. Fewer price points, like five or six maximum
4. For those who bought STs this year (the most loyal, important customers they have) really sweeten the deal in a big way if we renew. Like maybe offer an extra seat for the same price we paid this year, or offer 10 flex tickets, or offer half-price if we add more tickets to our order, or something else that makes this small group of diehards feel special and even more bonded with the org

Bottom line -- there are ways to get more people into a beautiful stadium to expose them to a great product in a tremendous atmosphere. I don't think continuing to price the product above what the market has borne is one of them.

100% agree.

[Argos1983]

The bottom line is this --- if people do not perceive going to Argos games as the "hot" place to be then they simply will not go to the games in this town, beyond a small hard-core group of die-hards which apparently number around 10,000-12,000 or so per game, and even fewer who will commit to season tickets (3000 or less).....Toronto is a trendy "event" driven town and outside of the Leafs who have a unique hold on the market from a sports entertainment perspective (and a value proposition for people to profit from their tickets in the resale market thereby offsetting the cost), most teams in this market will have wild attendance fluctuations based on the "trendiness" factor (ie. see Jays from 1994-2014 vs the last few years -- and watch it dip again next year after this year's debacle).....outside of the Argos becoming a hot commodity anytime soon (doubtful), they need to aggressively target themselves as a (much!!!) cheaper form of family entertainment and try even harder than ever to be widely accessible to fans all over the GTA......apparently a "minor league" soccer team (of which I am also a STH), can get people to come to the stadium so it's not impossible if it's priced right (the south end had a $10 ST price point for many years and the end sections up top 219/220/226/227 were $12) and marketed as a fun time.....again, I see almost no marketing beyond the 416 where I keep being told are where all the fans are ("research tells us the majority of fans come from the 416" we were told - ok, if that's the case why didn't they show up with all the 416 targeted marketing?) -- if so, the 416ers aren't going to games in droves, so I think maybe its time to find some families who have moved to the suburbs and make it easier for them to come to games --- $99 for four wasn't it, - $10-$15 dollars per ticket and a bobblehead was a lot closer to reality to bring people into the building.....no kids season ticket for every adult season ticket? more attendance giveaways targeted to kids (toys/hats/shirts etc.)?

.....I'm sorry Argos you need to try much much harder, stop alienating your dwindling season ticket base with false promises of repricing the stadium "next season", or we had no time to do it right in our GC season as we were rushed, or better discounts on merch than the 10% online discount which is just plain silly.....stop taking STH for granted, give people real reasons to stay on as a STH, not just same prices with less perks; and when you can start filling the building again then we can talk about moving the needle up in terms of pricing and such.....

Anyone who can honestly say that keeping things at status quo (or worse) for 2018 STH is appropriate, after drawing flies this year is out to lunch in my opinion and I guess when there are even less people there next year, or the tickets get more heavily discounted or papered we shouldn't be surprised (we won't do that they say -- we will just sell seats to groupon and the like to sell at huge discounts) .....but hey there is a plan, just wait for it, it's coming, wait for it.....waiting.......by the time the great plan is executed to fill the building at ludicrous prices for this market (ie. prices that this market simple won't bear for CFL football) there will be no one left to execute it for.....

[Topshelf]

I made it to 3 games this year. Summer weekends are tough.
Without scarcity of tickets there is zero reason to become an SSH.
That said, I complain every year tfc raises prices but have no choice but to renew.
If I don't, I'll lose them.
Argos can't take advantage of their most loyal fans. TFC went back to year one pricing after a fan revolt following a year watching "the worst team in the world"
People are getting paid to market this team, focus on season ticket retention and growth and this is their first offer?

[argofan81]

Appreciate the feedback and I feel for the reps getting the feedback for questionable decisions made by those above them.

I was speaking to one while using my last (literally) flex ticket for the home finale and brought up....in a nice way...about having that benefit removed....explanation per below.

************************************************** ************************************************** ***********************************

I know not have the additional seats feels like a big bonus being taken away. It is unfortunate, however offering these seats this season was part of our ‘big plan’ in terms of having a referral program for season seat holders this year. Our hopes are to get more people out to the game that value what is on the field (not just because it’s a free ticket from a friend, but that maybe they attended the game this year with you and enjoyed themselves enough that they want to invest!). I hope you understand, and will be able to benefit from the referral program we’re offering!

************************************************** ************************************************** *************************************************

If they followed trough with the seat map change and lower east side the this is a good trade off as I see the point of not giving out free tickets and the referral program is new....I may need to bribe the one I was trying to recruit and split the credit....hoping lower prices would be enough....

Let's see how the team responds after this hailstorm.

Here's my problem with the rationale that is being given (I.e. Flex tickets being replaced with the recruitment program): the flex tickets were available to every single season ticket holder without the ticket holder having to do anything on their part -- it is up to the holder to decide if they want to take advantage of it. The referall program is only a benefit IF the season ticket holder can find people willing to purchase new season tickets (provided that the tickets meet their criteria). Personally, I gave my tickets to either people who wouldn't ordinarily attend a game (CFL is not really their 'thing' or otherwise couldn't afford to attend the game. While these people expressed an interest in coming to a game next year, they are very unlikely to become season ticket holders. It is my hope that next year they will be willing to pay to attend a game or two (vs me giving them free tickets -- to me, that is still a win for the team!). The point is, what was once a perk that could be enjoyed by all ticket holders is now replaced with something that is limited to a few, so yes, a benefit is being taken away.

[argofan81]

In a previous thread it has been established that our prices are similar to other teams, if not higher -- so should the season ticket holder benefits not be similar too? I'm going to do a team by team comparison & post the results, but based on last season, I can assure that our benefits are not even close to what other teams offer. And I still don't understand why our merchandise credit is not available to us in the stadium...the reason given was that BMO did not have the capabilities to do so. If true, how is it that TFC season ticket holders are able to receive a discount in stadium?

[ArgoGabe22]

You would be right if the stadium was even half full. You would also be right if many other people were playing close to what we as STH's pay. Neither of those things happened (enough times during the year). I never viewed the flex tickets as a free gift. I viewed them as a reward for having paid full price in advance for a full season's worth of tickets. I also used all of mine to introduce new potential fans to the CFL experience. This cost the Argos nothing in reality because so many seats have gone unsold. So IMO, until such time as the situation changes, we should have had the option of utilizing those tickets. Perhaps if you don't use them you can get some other incentive. As it has been said, if single game tickets can be readily obtained for most any game at significantly lower prices, there have to be meaningful incentives to be a STH. That's just common sense.

But as a business you can't keep giving away freebies. After such promotion, you want fans coming back as paid fans. Giving away tickets results in people expecting to get in free. That business model hurts the long term future. Now, dropping prices is another story. That should've been done so prospective fans can get a taste for a lower price. Not free, but very affordable.

[Neely2005]

I sent an email directly to Michael Hook at the Argos office voicing my displeasure, especially related to the Flex tickets, because I have posted already those were of great value to me. To give him full credit, he responded within 20 minutes. He thanked me for expressing my concerns and indicated he valued the feedback. With respect to the Flex tickets, his explanation for why they were discontinued is that only 48% of the tickets were ever utilized, and of those 20% were donated to 3rd parties. So from an organizational standpoint, I can at least understand why that promotion is being withdrawn, because it did not hit the expected target. However, I did tell him that while the STH base may not be large, we are a passionate bunch, who listen, care AND pay attention. I drew him back to commitments and promises which had been made at Town Hall and other venues which we expect to hold management accountable for. I told him that he should view the comments on the this site, because many are not positive, and get out front of some of these issues. If there are explanations for why they have - or haven't - done something, they should let the committed fans know. Hopefully we hear something. But he was willing to speak to me about my personal situation and seemed sincere in making things right for me. I will give full credit for that.

The season's not over yet so calculating how many Flex Tickets have been used is a bit premature. We have 4 left but we'll definitely use them all before the season's over.

[paulwoods13]

The season's not over yet so calculating how many Flex Tickets have been used is a bit premature. We have 4 left but we'll definitely use them all before the season's over.

I don't understand how they can "know" how many flex tickets were distributed to third parties. All of mine are being given to people who don't ordinarily go, but the team has no way of knowing that because the tickets were emailed directly to me.

[timlb01]

I don't understand how they can "know" how many flex tickets were distributed to third parties. All of mine are being given to people who don't ordinarily go, but the team has no way of knowing that because the tickets were emailed directly to me.

I may be wrong but I believe they are saying if you donated them to charity through them or something along those lines.

[RB957]

I don't understand how they can "know" how many flex tickets were distributed to third parties. All of mine are being given to people who don't ordinarily go, but the team has no way of knowing that because the tickets were emailed directly to me.

I don't know. If the tickets are in your ticket account manager, and you transfer them, would that leave a trail that can then be calculated into an overall number?

[RB957]

The season's not over yet so calculating how many Flex Tickets have been used is a bit premature. We have 4 left but we'll definitely use them all before the season's over.

I assumed that he was telling me that this has been how many have been used so far this year. That would be the only number available. You make a point, but with only two games left in the season, it is hard to believe that there are that many flex tickets out there that are going to be used up still. I guess we would have to wait and see what the final numbers are.

[RB957]

But as a business you can't keep giving away freebies. After such promotion, you want fans coming back as paid fans. Giving away tickets results in people expecting to get in free. That business model hurts the long term future. Now, dropping prices is another story. That should've been done so prospective fans can get a taste for a lower price. Not free, but very affordable.

ArgoGabe, I agree with you that as a business you can't keep giving away freebies and I wholeheartedly agree that we should not try to paper the stands with free tickets. But I think you have missed my point. These flex tickets were not "free" in the true sense of the word. They were simply additional tickets that were discounted. In essence I got 15 tickets for the same price as I would have paid for 11. For me, it was great because my total cost of ownership was reduced. However, the Argos got all of my money up front, guaranteed. And the flex tickets were always provided with the proviso "subject to availability". There was never any assurance they would be in the same price point. Which again works in the team's favour. I don't want to keep beating this to death, but it still doesn't sit well with me.

[1971GreyCup]

I was proactively reminded by my ticket rep that I still had 6 flex tickets left for the Winnipeg game. I had them sent and will have them used. If all flex tickets were used, does that account for 14,000 total seats for the 2017 season? Is total 2017 attendance is estimated to be around 100,000? Maybe they don't count flex seats, but if they do, that's 14% of attendance. A big number.

[Argos1983]

I don't understand how they can "know" how many flex tickets were distributed to third parties. All of mine are being given to people who don't ordinarily go, but the team has no way of knowing that because the tickets were emailed directly to me.

Exactly --- once the tickets are emailed to me, I could print them off and physically hand them to anyone --- how they would know if that's my brother or a complete stranger is beyond me --- unless transferred through account manager and transferred in that method only to a third party, there is no way of knowing who is using the seats given to us directly that could be printed off and handed to anyone. You can track the number of seats distributed and even the number used at the gate (ie. how many "flex tickets" were scanned), but that in no way tells you who the ultimate end user was.....the fact that these numbers are being discussed before the season even ends also indicates how faulty they are too --- the frank reality is they took away something that many saw as a benefit of committing to season tickets --- there is no way that you could not have gotten tickets to every game this year through discounted sources (groupons and the like) or the secondary market for way less than what the ST price was.

The "extra" 8 tickets were a way to defray some of that cost and was an incentive to buying tickets up front. As many have also said, it was always subject to availability and if only 48% of the available flex tickets were even distributed (in theory less than 7,000 total (3500ST x 2 tickets used) or maybe 700 a game (not sure if it is 3500 Season tickets sold in which case my calculation is accurate, or 3500 ST holders holding a pair on average --- in which case the number may be 14,000 total distributed as mentioned by someone else - either way the overall number is relatively small at 700-1400 tickets per game) that should also tell you that the demand is simply not there in the marketplace when even free tickets aren't snapped up at close to a 100% rate.....if even 20% as stated were used by third parties, isn't that better than having those seats unfilled? it seems that this was a relatively low cost incentive to the team which had a more than 1/2 empty stadium consistently...... (a warm body is better than nobody in the seats and you are rewarding STH and not just "giving away" freebies to random people which they are so afraid of and I agree with to some extent --- sometimes rewarding STH is a good thing and if less than 1500 tickets per game is the price of goodwill I don't think it perverts the whole papering the house notion where 10,000 freebies per game are given away to your non-loyal customers)......

[Scooter McCray]

Flex tickets are a great idea for fans to get friends and family and colleagues out to experience the game and new venue. But i still expected team management to sell tickets as well. Their efforts in light of the flex tickets leaves much to be desired. Failing grade pure and simple.

[ArgoGabe22]

ArgoGabe, I agree with you that as a business you can't keep giving away freebies and I wholeheartedly agree that we should not try to paper the stands with free tickets. But I think you have missed my point. These flex tickets were not "free" in the true sense of the word. They were simply additional tickets that were discounted. In essence I got 15 tickets for the same price as I would have paid for 11. For me, it was great because my total cost of ownership was reduced. However, the Argos got all of my money up front, guaranteed. And the flex tickets were always provided with the proviso "subject to availability". There was never any assurance they would be in the same price point. Which again works in the team's favour. I don't want to keep beating this to death, but it still doesn't sit well with me.

But you shouldn't be looking at it like that. Getting 15 tickets for the price of 10-11 tickets isn't the norm. It was an added bonus. If anyone really thinks they're ought to get 15 tickets, then that's just being a bit too greedy (for a lack of a better word) since no other team offers that.

[R.J]

But you shouldn't be looking at it like that. Getting 15 tickets for the price of 10-11 tickets isn't the norm. It was an added bonus. If anyone really thinks they're ought to get 15 tickets, then that's just being a bit too greedy (for a lack of a better word) since no other team offers that.

Agreed Gabe.