the "We got Issues" thread

[bluto]

IIT: We discuss what is currently ailing the Boatmen... then we discuss what (if anything)can be done about it this season... and what the hell, we'll point fingers too

OK fine, i'll start us off:

Penalties

is there anyone here watching the games, that when an orange flag flies, they think anything other than "oh ****, what did we do now?" ? it's getting to that ridiculous point that we're taking so many bad penalties that i honestly think that the refs reach for the laundry if they even half-think that they sorta see an infraction by someone in Oxford Blue... (viz: the facemasking call that extended Montreal's 90 yard opening TD drive)
this is killing us. players-only meetings are all well and good... but what is called for now is action by the bossman. Milanovich needs to sit players - for a series, a quarter, a half... i don't care if it's only for a play - but the message has to be very clear that we must be a team who never yields free yardage. 11 football fields worth of free territory surrendered this season and counting...

Red Zone

red means "stop"... in our case literally. another one of our broken records that keeps repeating itself. we aren't scoring majors... and lately, we aren't even converting on FGs. this problem (like the aforementioned penalty issues) is large enough that if it were fixed, it could quite likely be all the difference required to put us over the top. as it is, we rack up plenty of yards on both offence and 'teams... and we're miserly about giving them up (on defence anyway) so if we could just start converting on our TD opportunites we could be winning close games comfortably. i mustn't be the only person who is sick of watching our offence bend and opponent but not break them.
we talked about this after week 4... at the time i wondered whether it was our lack of a top "target man" a la Nick Lewis that is hamstringing us. at this time i'm still inclined to think so... but i'll add that our team's leading the league in dropping catchable balls (unofficial stat, but it has to be right, no?) isn't helping us rack up majors.

Kick Coverage

since when are we the team that gives up easy yardage on punt return, kick return and (now that it's happening more frequently) missed field goals? and how many TDs is it that we've handed over so far? more than i've ever seen in a season, i'd guess (not exaggerating... it's been pretty bad). this is just like the penalty issue. we're giving up yardage for free here. O'Shea needs to draw a line in the sand and threaten some jobs or something. the easiest way to gain or lose yardage in a football game is through special teams play... and Owens does his part to tilt the field for us (though, surprisingly, he hasn't gotten to the endzone yet) but what good is having a Chad Owens on the roster if we just meekly surrender all of his hard earned yardage back to the enemy as soon as we kick to them?

Dropsies

as mentioned above... we have got to be leading the league in dropping catchable balls. our entire offence is centred on being high percentage... dropping passes is anathema to that. too many drive-killing drops.

Line Play

our O-Line has been a topic of debate all season... i personally think that it hasn't been as bad as many have said (and i think that despite an all-around lacklustre effort in Montreal that you couldn't blame our hoggies for the loss at all) but anyone would have to admit that we've taken a step back and until our line matures and gels, we're in for more of the same. the lack of our O-Line having the ability to take over a game and impose their will on a defence is a downer but it isn't required... so our coaches have had to find a way to do it through a high percentage pass game which (Red Zone excepted) has worked out well so far. Ray's ankle is going to have people trashing the line all week, but for me, this isn't anything we can improve... and it isn't something that is causing us to lose games in and of itself.
on the D-Line we've seen the least amount of sacks in the league and the new system that coach Jones has them playing doesn't seem to lend itself to pressuring QBs...(although i have a feeling that we're hitting QBs at a pretty good rate... there's been some big licks handed out as opposing QBs deliver the ball that don't get a stat). Huntley's article in the Post a week or two ago elaborated on this and assuaged my lust for having our D-Line get into the backfield and raise hell... but simply put: this appears to be working as designed. would i like more intensity from the ends? yes. but again, this doesn't appear to be something that can be upgraded this season so i'm not going to worry about it that much.

Mental Toughness

anyone else see a team on Sunday that looked for a way back into the game and didn't see one... so they just went through the motions? perhaps it was the opening drive TD by Montreal... perhaps it was seeing Ray go down and then end up in street clothes... but whatever it was, it was the second time this season that our team couldn't find a way to overcome adversity and just (to me anyway) waited for the final whistle to sound.
what i saw was too close to "quit"... and once other teams know that they can force you to that breaking point, they will not quit themselves.
we need to get out there and hammer somebody (like the labour day rematch)... Winnipeg coming to town this week is the perfect tonic for us. i don't care who is QB'ing, we should be able to handle them easily and stop this losing streak at 2 games.




i've more to add... but it's late. please feel welcome to comment and contribute your own "issues".

[Midnight Blue]

IIT: We discuss what is currently ailing the Boatmen... then we discuss what (if anything)can be done about it this season... and what the hell, we'll point fingers too

OK fine, i'll start us off:

Penalties

is there anyone here watching the games, that when an orange flag flies, they think anything other than "oh ****, what did we do now?" ? it's getting to that ridiculous point that we're taking so many bad penalties that i honestly think that the refs reach for the laundry if they even half-think that they sorta see an infraction by someone in Oxford Blue... (viz: the facemasking call that extended Montreal's 90 yard opening TD drive)
this is killing us. players-only meetings are all well and good... but what is called for now is action by the bossman. Milanovich needs to sit players - for a series, a quarter, a half... i don't care if it's only for a play - but the message has to be very clear that we must be a team who never yields free yardage. 11 football fields worth of free territory surrendered this season and counting...

Red Zone

red means "stop"... in our case literally. another one of our broken records that keeps repeating itself. we aren't scoring majors... and lately, we aren't even converting on FGs. this problem (like the aforementioned penalty issues) is large enough that if it were fixed, it could quite likely be all the difference required to put us over the top. as it is, we rack up plenty of yards on both offence and 'teams... and we're miserly about giving them up (on defence anyway) so if we could just start converting on our TD opportunites we could be winning close games comfortably. i mustn't be the only person who is sick of watching our offence bend and opponent but not break them.
we talked about this after week 4... at the time i wondered whether it was our lack of a top "target man" a la Nick Lewis that is hamstringing us. at this time i'm still inclined to think so... but i'll add that our team's leading the league in dropping catchable balls (unofficial stat, but it has to be right, no?) isn't helping us rack up majors.

Kick Coverage

since when are we the team that gives up easy yardage on punt return, kick return and (now that it's happening more frequently) missed field goals? and how many TDs is it that we've handed over so far? more than i've ever seen in a season, i'd guess (not exaggerating... it's been pretty bad). this is just like the penalty issue. we're giving up yardage for free here. O'Shea needs to draw a line in the sand and threaten some jobs or something. the easiest way to gain or lose yardage in a football game is through special teams play... and Owens does his part to tilt the field for us (though, surprisingly, he hasn't gotten to the endzone yet) but what good is having a Chad Owens on the roster if we just meekly surrender all of his hard earned yardage back to the enemy as soon as we kick to them?

Dropsies

as mentioned above... we have got to be leading the league in dropping catchable balls. our entire offence is centred on being high percentage... dropping passes is anathema to that. too many drive-killing drops.

Line Play

our O-Line has been a topic of debate all season... i personally think that it hasn't been as bad as many have said (and i think that despite an all-around lacklustre effort in Montreal that you couldn't blame our hoggies for the loss at all) but anyone would have to admit that we've taken a step back and until our line matures and gels, we're in for more of the same. the lack of our O-Line having the ability to take over a game and impose their will on a defence is a downer but it isn't required... so our coaches have had to find a way to do it through a high percentage pass game which (Red Zone excepted) has worked out well so far. Ray's ankle is going to have people trashing the line all week, but for me, this isn't anything we can improve... and it isn't something that is causing us to lose games in and of itself.
on the D-Line we've seen the least amount of sacks in the league and the new system that coach Jones has them playing doesn't seem to lend itself to pressuring QBs...(although i have a feeling that we're hitting QBs at a pretty good rate... there's been some big licks handed out as opposing QBs deliver the ball that don't get a stat). Huntley's article in the Post a week or two ago elaborated on this and assuaged my lust for having our D-Line get into the backfield and raise hell... but simply put: this appears to be working as designed. would i like more intensity from the ends? yes. but again, this doesn't appear to be something that can be upgraded this season so i'm not going to worry about it that much.

Mental Toughness

anyone else see a team on Sunday that looked for a way back into the game and didn't see one... so they just went through the motions? perhaps it was the opening drive TD by Montreal... perhaps it was seeing Ray go down and then end up in street clothes... but whatever it was, it was the second time this season that our team couldn't find a way to overcome adversity and just (to me anyway) waited for the final whistle to sound.
what i saw was too close to "quit"... and once other teams know that they can force you to that breaking point, they will not quit themselves.
we need to get out there and hammer somebody (like the labour day rematch)... Winnipeg coming to town this week is the perfect tonic for us. i don't care who is QB'ing, we should be able to handle them easily and stop this losing streak at 2 games.




i've more to add... but it's late. please feel welcome to comment and contribute your own "issues".


Wow. I think you nailed it, Sir.

Hard for me to argue with anything you've said.

[Ron]

Nice writeup.

On the Mental Toughness part I'll add these two points.

1. The team seemed to "break" today on the missed FG return.

2. With Buck at QB ... Winnipeg is not easy to beat. They are a totally different team with him in there.

[Will]

Also, the game against Winnipeg is on the road. The Bombers typically play a tougher game at CanadInns.

[1argoholic]

Oh don't let Winnipegs record fool anyone we'll be in really tough especially with that crowd having it's hate on for Toronto. It'll be Argos Suck all game long. Let's just hope the Bomber who've been playing most of the year show up and not the ones who played this past weekend.

Great points mentioned above and I'm glad someone else posted it. I think people are getting sick of me posting about all of our issues. It might just be that kind of year. We don't seem to be making any real huge improvements with any of these issues. How does a team not learn game after game. I do agree that the officials are just grabbing for the flags way too fast. Ball grazed the facemask and he gets called. A few real head shakers against BC last week as well.

One of these years we'll get totally back of the rails.

[QBall]

IIT: We discuss what is currently ailing the Boatmen... then we discuss what (if anything)can be done about it this season... and what the hell, we'll point fingers too

OK fine, i'll start us off:

Penalties

is there anyone here watching the games, that when an orange flag flies, they think anything other than "oh ****, what did we do now?" ? it's getting to that ridiculous point that we're taking so many bad penalties that i honestly think that the refs reach for the laundry if they even half-think that they sorta see an infraction by someone in Oxford Blue... (viz: the facemasking call that extended Montreal's 90 yard opening TD drive)
this is killing us. players-only meetings are all well and good... but what is called for now is action by the bossman. Milanovich needs to sit players - for a series, a quarter, a half... i don't care if it's only for a play - but the message has to be very clear that we must be a team who never yields free yardage. 11 football fields worth of free territory surrendered this season and counting...

I recall after the last home game I was listening to the post game show on 1050 and Mike Hogan brought up that maybe the Argos need to consider a clearer message by actually releasing problem players when it comes to dumb penalties. I know it may seem draconian but I don't think benching players is going to get it through the other players heads that this sort of undisciplined play will result in serious consequences.

[1argoholic]

Well we could release players but that would mean work for Barker in finding new players. He has said he's happy with out talent.

[QBall]

Well we could release players but that would mean work for Barker in finding new players. He has said he's happy with out talent.

While I have no doubt Barker said this it isn't Barker who has to go in front of the mic after each game and field questions from the media over and over again about discipline and penalties as Milanovich has to do (which I commend him for as I find him to be much better in front of the media than Barker). While it's great if player 'X' can average a sack a game if they are also averaging 15 penalty yards a game is the team really further ahead with that guy? I know we're the CFL and we have a hard time attracting the best of the best, however it's still the GM's job to go out and find a player who can bring a little balance to a particular position, not just fill it and hope the coaching staff can fix the deficiencies.

[1argoholic]

Barker has had me shaking my head since he came back. He finds some great talent but also over looks plenty. I don't like the way he takes the draft as a crap shoot. I'd like to see him bring in some guys to push who we have. We all know where we need help. He could be doing more.

[LLB997]

bluto, nice thorough analysis. good job

[Nob]

Did anybody see the stat that TSN had on procedure penalties and defensive penalties?? Frightening

[bluto]

Also, the game against Winnipeg is on the road. The Bombers typically play a tougher game at CanadInns.

that may be so, but man for man and coach for coach we're a better club.

we beat them earlier in the season by playing one of the worst games i've seen us play this year...

as said above, even a modest reduction in penalties and marginal increase in RZ efficiency will have us wiping the turf with them...

(and then, mercifully, we'll nevr have to watch our beloved team play in that dump ever again)

[bluto]

I recall after the last home game I was listening to the post game show on 1050 and Mike Hogan brought up that maybe the Argos need to consider a clearer message by actually releasing problem players when it comes to dumb penalties. I know it may seem draconian but I don't think benching players is going to get it through the other players heads that this sort of undisciplined play will result in serious consequences.

releasing players for flags sounds a bit much... especially since i'm not sure that they even get pulled for a series (or anything) at this point.

Barker and the player personnel folks spend too much time identifying and signing talent (to say nothing of the time spent training it to play in our system) to just release a player who false starts on a play a few times due to crowd noise.

i agree with Hoagie's sentiment though... and it does seem like the message (of NOT taking flags and handing the enemy FREE yardage) isn't getting received... so it's time to change the way we convey the message.

[bluto]

Barker has had me shaking my head since he came back. He finds some great talent but also over looks plenty. I don't like the way he takes the draft as a crap shoot. I'd like to see him bring in some guys to push who we have. We all know where we need help. He could be doing more.

hard to do much more than turning over 1/3 of the roster and bringing in a hall of fame QB, isn't it?

what part of bringing in Ray, Inman, Ball, Armstead, Boulay, Caroll, Cohen, Lee, Horne, Watkins, Isaac, McCune, Jackson, Harris, Collaros, Reinders, Washington, Waters, Spencer, Smith, Parenteau, Rambo, Riggs or any of the other players brought in this season leads anyone to think that Barks isn't trying very hard to give Milanovich and Jones the tools they need to win football games?

he works within a Salary Management System and budgets to spend pretty much the whole thing (as does every other team)... that doesn't leave room for hiring players on spec.

as for the draft being a crap shoot... well, it kinda is. yeah, we've gone "off board" for some picks and yeah, i'd love to know that we had a pipeline filled with blue chip NIs waiting their turn to pull on the shirt... but really, our NI situation is above average and looks to remain so for a few seasons to come.

[bluto]

bluto, nice thorough analysis. good job

thanks... hopefully the coaches and captains are at least this much aware and introspective (i believe that they are)... if so, i trust them to correct those things above that they can.


Did anybody see the stat that TSN had on procedure penalties and defensive penalties?? Frightening

yeah... but this is like one of those Homer and Lisa "Crisitunities" (ie: half crisis, half opportunity).

our biggest issues holding us back are preventable errors! in my (never to be) humble opinion, all the Argos need do is become 50% better at each. it's not like we need to be the least penalized team from here on out... even being middle of the pack in penalties is a HUGE improvement. likewise, getting in the RZ even at a mediocre rate will catapult our boxscores to places that will have us breathing easy if combined with our current level of defensive play (a few mental lapses resulting in big plays in Montreal aside...) and this also presumes that we cover better on special teams (again... a preventable error).

these aren't things beyond the coaches and players control... so as someone who believes that our three principle coaches are competant football men, i put my trust in them dealing with these issues and netting positive results.

[paulwoods13]

hard to do much more than turning over 1/3 of the roster and bringing in a hall of fame QB, isn't it?

what part of bringing in Ray, Inman, Ball, Armstead, Boulay, Caroll, Cohen, Lee, Horne, Watkins, Isaac, McCune, Jackson, Harris, Collaros, Reinders, Washington, Waters, Spencer, Smith, Parenteau, Rambo, Riggs or any of the other players brought in this season leads anyone to think that Barks isn't trying very hard to give Milanovich and Jones the tools they need to win football games?

he works within a Salary Management System and budgets to spend pretty much the whole thing (as does every other team)... that doesn't leave room for hiring players on spec.

as for the draft being a crap shoot... well, it kinda is. yeah, we've gone "off board" for some picks and yeah, i'd love to know that we had a pipeline filled with blue chip NIs waiting their turn to pull on the shirt... but really, our NI situation is above average and looks to remain so for a few seasons to come.

Sensible post, bluto. I'm not sure about your very last point -- if our NI situation is above average we must be in the top 3 in the league, and I don't think that's the case -- but otherwise it all makes sense to me.

[QBall]

our biggest issues holding us back are preventable errors! in my (never to be) humble opinion, all the Argos need do is become 50% better at each. it's not like we need to be the least penalized team from here on out... even being middle of the pack in penalties is a HUGE improvement. likewise, getting in the RZ even at a mediocre rate will catapult our boxscores to places that will have us breathing easy if combined with our current level of defensive play (a few mental lapses resulting in big plays in Montreal aside...) and this also presumes that we cover better on special teams (again... a preventable error).

I'll be happy with 5% at this point. 50% might be too big a mountain to climb with only eight games left. I want to say crawl before we run but this should've been nipped in the bud a long time ago. Seeing how we're in the middle of a slide management needs to take a hard stand.
On a bit of a side note after seeing the Packers O-line last night against Seattle the Argos' O-line looks like a hall of fame crew.

[1argoholic]

How does an team get 8 sacks in one half?

Speaking of Seattle what's with those road construction flaggers uni's. They SUCK! Looks like not only the neon would glow but the numbers look glow in the dark.

[QBall]

Maybe Seattle is that good. Ba ha ha ha ha! Oh Lord I couldn't say that with a straight face.