Future home for the Argos at York U? Some clues:

[dmont]

.

First off, here is a link to some designs for the Pan Am stadium at York:

http://www.bharchitects.com/en/projects/356#6

Second off, these are NOT the winning designs. These are from one of the bidding firms, I think. To my knowledge, no designs for York's new stadium have been provided by the winning consortium, Ontario Sports Solutions.

What these designs may indicate is the kind of facility that the Pan Ams, York U, and Infrastructure Ontario asked for. It looks like one permanent grandstand that is pretty impressive, more impressive than I expected, along with a large track and infield surrounded by temporary bleachers. With the large footprint, and all the permanent structures on one side, could this be a ready CFL stadium for an owner willing to build the other grandstand?

I sure hope the winning design comes close to the one from B+H Architects. On the surface, it looks like a viable long-term option for the Argos if they can't make it work at the Skydome.

[1argoholic]

Hadn't someone posted that a while ago. Looks familiar.

[Ron]

I imagine it's on the same site that C&S were going to build the stadium they were never going to build. So there would be room for stadium expansion someday.

Will have to wait til at least 2016 before any talk would begin about it. Also would need York to "get over" being screwed last time by the Argo pullout. Food for thought though considering the Dome has just 10-15 years of lifespan left.

[argolio]

screwed last time by the Argo pulloutMan is that painful..........or so I've heard.

[tc23]

The Toronto 2015 Pan/Parapan American Games Athletics Stadium will be a world class track and field athletics centre designed and built to international standards to host the 2015 Pan/Parapan Am Games. The stadium will be a memorable and highly appealing form for spectators and athletes consisting of a 5,000 seat stadium, a new Competition Category 1 World Championship level 400m track and field, a suite of athlete support spaces and spectator amenities.

I think the Argos will need a little more than a 5,000 seat stadium ?

[Invader]

I think they should design the Pan-Parapan stadium so it's expandable, like adding a 7,500-seat upper deck on the existing side and building a new 12,500-seat grandstand on the other side (with the CFL dressing rooms, private boxes, restaurants, etc)...and ensure that it at least fits a Canadian football field? You'd think the Argos would have stepped up by now and got the wheels in motion...or perhaps they are working behind the scenes to get this done?

The Feds are chipping in $69 million for the Ticats new stadium, the province $25 million (plus the assured cost overruns) and the city $52 million. The Ticats even get the naming rights. Governments are also building new stadiums in Sask and Ottawa for their CFL teams and the $569 million stadium upgrade in Vancouver (ostensibly for the Lions). So what are the Argos getting?

[Mulder]

I think they should design the Pan-Parapan stadium so it's expandable, like adding a 7,500-seat upper deck on the existing side and building a new 12,500-seat grandstand on the other side (with the CFL dressing rooms, private boxes, restaurants, etc)...and ensure that it at least fits a Canadian football field? You'd think the Argos would have stepped up by now and got the wheels in motion...or perhaps they are working behind the scenes to get this done?

The Feds are chipping in $69 million for the Ticats new stadium, the province $25 million (plus the assured cost overruns) and the city $52 million. The Ticats even get the naming rights. Governments are also building new stadiums in Sask and Ottawa for their CFL teams and the $569 million stadium upgrade in Vancouver (ostensibly for the Lions). So what are the Argos getting?

The Argo's won't be getting any money anytime soon. It'll probably be 10ish years before we see anything on new stadium for the Argos.
The only thing I see happening in Mr. Braley fronting money for a BMO reno after this years GC.

[dmont]

The Toronto 2015 Pan/Parapan American Games Athletics Stadium will be a world class track and field athletics centre designed and built to international standards to host the 2015 Pan/Parapan Am Games. The stadium will be a memorable and highly appealing form for spectators and athletes consisting of a 5,000 seat stadium, a new Competition Category 1 World Championship level 400m track and field, a suite of athlete support spaces and spectator amenities.

I think the Argos will need a little more than a 5,000 seat stadium ?

I agree with you, 5k wouldn't cut it. But if you look at the images in the link, it looks like all the permanent seats are built on one side. That leaves the other side open for expansion, possibly to the 24-28k that seems to be the sweet spot in the CFL. So yes, not ready today, but possibly a long term option?

[mchesher03]

just don't like the track (puts the bleachers farther from the field)

i won't pull out pics of the old design for York - it was almost perfect

[Invader]

Oops, now that I look at the drawings, that York site is no good for the CFL. Not enough room for expansion, not designed to be expanded, buildings too close, parking? Perhaps rebuilding BMO is a better option. Or perhaps Rogers could build a new baseball (& NFL?) stadium with natural grass (perhaps on the waterfront with a monorail line?)...and sell Skydome to the Argos?...who could renovate it, making it more football and Argo friendly.

[ArgoRavi]

Oops, now that I look at the drawings, that York site is no good for the CFL. Not enough room for expansion, not designed to be expanded, buildings too close, parking? Perhaps rebuilding BMO is a better option. Or perhaps Rogers could build a new baseball (& NFL?) stadium with natural grass (perhaps on the waterfront with a monorail line?)...and sell Skydome to the Argos?...who could renovate it, making it more football and Argo friendly.

I could see Rogers building a new baseball-only stadium at some point. If they still want an NFL team and determine that SkyDome won't do, then they will have to build a separate stadium for that. Doesn't the NFL like football-only stadiums these days?

[matthew]

Looks like the old autostade in Montreal from expo

[1argoholic]

Would everyone let the NFL BS DIE the slow death it deserves already! My blood boils when I hear anything to do with Rogers and the NFL. If I was speaking this it would be full of language I can't post on here.

[argonaut11xx]

Would everyone let the NFL BS DIE the slow death it deserves already! My blood boils when I hear anything to do with Rogers and the NFL. If I was speaking this it would be full of language I can't post on here.

Unless a Toronto NFL franchise can play in local GTA bars, or in the various Hooters restaurants ,NO NFL team will ever move to Toronto...its a BETTING league, pools, etc...
(these young punks who MAYBE head to Buffalo once a year, yet talk about the NFL 24/7, because of the pools they are in...NOT real football fans, just betting junkies)
....that said i wish the CFL was more betting friendly

[argolio]

I could see Rogers building a new baseball-only stadium at some point. If they still want an NFL team and determine that SkyDome won't do, then they will have to build a separate stadium for that. Doesn't the NFL like football-only stadiums these days?Yes they do. But since corporate ownership is prohibited by the NFL, the chances of Rogers ever building an NFL stadium are virtually zero.

[argos1873]

Man is that painful..........or so I've heard.

So you've heard? I'm sure you've been an Argo fan long enough to have been screwed, more than once, by an Argo "pullout" of one kind or another. ;)

[johnnyice]

Would everyone let the NFL BS DIE the slow death it deserves already! My blood boils when I hear anything to do with Rogers and the NFL. If I was speaking this it would be full of language I can't post on here.


Well stated !

[Ron]

Yes they do. But since corporate ownership is prohibited by the NFL, the chances of Rogers ever building an NFL stadium are virtually zero.

This is so true. That's why for years I have always wondered why people buy all this media built "Rogers-NFL" crap. Rogers can never own an NFL team. Ted Rogers personally was never going to guy a team as he wasn't even a sports fan. He was just a money fan for his company. But CFL fans have allowed the idiot media class to keep perpetuating the Rogers myth and get themselves all in a dumb huff over an impossible scenario.

So any NFL to Toronto talk is to be ignored until we start to hear from really super rich INDIVIDUALS! Because only then will that ever happen. And when you look to the south and see just how many rich dudes have top get together to buy an established NFL team in an established market ... it's pretty much assured there ain't that many rich dudes in Canada to pull it off.

As to the York stadium? Dmont is 100% correct. It has the footprint to be a possible future home. Nothing will be considered until after the Pan Am games are gone regardless.

I also disagree with Mulder on BMO. The Argos were never wanted there from day one and I see no reason that will change that. BMO is a perfect little soccer stadium and they have no need for 10 CFL dates. The only one's into wanting BMO are Argo fans. Nobody else.

[paulwoods13]

I could see Rogers building a new baseball-only stadium at some point.

Why would Rogers be any different than every other sports team owner in North America, other than Jerry Jones? i.e. why would they build a stadium on their own dime? When Rogers finally determines that SkyDome is no longer an appropriate venue for the Blue Jays, it will be going hat in hand to all three levels of government looking for them to foot the lion's share of the bill for a new stadium. Fortunately, I think taxpayers are no longer willing to subsidize rich corporations like that.

[1argoholic]

Rogers makes enough off the backs of hard working Canadians.
I'll never understand this new society that been marketed to death and people gobble it up. Folks used to just buy new socks and gitch every year and now that has extended to tv's and all sorts of high tech gagets. Cars used to be a special purchase and the whole neighbourhood would come and see your dads new car. Small homes were fine for large families and now huge homes need to be bigger for a status wanting couple. This is no different when it comes to business. We used to have great small hardware stores, restaurants etc. People knew each other. Now very few massive companies own everything. I can see how the Occupy Movement started I'm just not the type to go and squat on some land and protest. I do mine in everyday life.
My rant all started by reading Rogers. haha See I don't just bitch about the Argos I can spread it around. haha

[ArgoRavi]

Why would Rogers be any different than every other sports team owner in North America, other than Jerry Jones? i.e. why would they build a stadium on their own dime? When Rogers finally determines that SkyDome is no longer an appropriate venue for the Blue Jays, it will be going hat in hand to all three levels of government looking for them to foot the lion's share of the bill for a new stadium. Fortunately, I think taxpayers are no longer willing to subsidize rich corporations like that.

I should have phrased it better. You are correct, Paul, that Rogers won't be putting in much, if any, of their own money in any future stadium project that they might want to develop.

[Ron]

I should have phrased it better. You are correct, Paul, that Rogers won't be putting in much, if any, of their own money in any future stadium project that they might want to develop.

Actually you are both making assumptions. Not that it matters since almost (as in not all) every stadium built in Canada is done that way. I don't see any scorn from either of you towards the new CFL stadia being built right now with big tax dollar help.

[AngeloV]

Actually you are both making assumptions. Not that it matters since almost (as in not all) every stadium built in Canada is done that way. I don't see any scorn from either of you towards the new CFL stadia being built right now with big tax dollar help.

When CFL owners start paying their players multi million dollar contracts, then we will have an uproar over tax dollars going to the CFL stadiums being built. All the other "Major Leage" teams can regain the money they put towards a new Arena/Stadium by charging the ST holders with personal seat licences. CFL (perhaps with the exception of Regina) can't do that.

[paulwoods13]

Actually you are both making assumptions. Not that it matters since almost (as in not all) every stadium built in Canada is done that way. I don't see any scorn from either of you towards the new CFL stadia being built right now with big tax dollar help.

Well, here is my official scorn.

As to whether it will happen again with a baseball stadium in Toronto, anything is possible, I suppose. But I cannot imagine any level of govt giving the hundreds of millions needed to a giant corp like Rogers. Taxpayers won't tolerate it, IMO. Story may be different elsewhere, such as Sask and Edmonton, where the team asking for the subsidy is perceived by the community to be a major part of the culture. That isn't the case with baseball in Toronto, IMO.

[dmont]

.

Some more news on the new stadium at York, along with an artist's rendering:

http://www.toronto2015.org/lang/en/gallery/news/to2015-officially-breaks-ground-on-new-athletics-stadium-at-york-university.html
and a larger photo on the Pan Am facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/#!/toronto2015

Also, a recent article in the Sun features a throw-away line from Mark Cohon on the stadium issue:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/mark-cohons-animal-kingdom/article5397984/

"He [Cohon] says the Grey Cup celebrations are all about raising the CFL’s profile in Southern Ontario and he recognizes the Argos will have to build their own stadium one day."

The York U stadium, as rendered and described in the article, presents some challenges and opportunities. On the one hand, it looks like all the permanent seats are on one side, which is good. On the other, it's a very strange design, with what looks like a very small upper tier of seats and spaces in between the two teirs that look roughed-in for pressboxes or luxury suites. The footprint of the stadium looks quite large as they have a sizeable temporary grandstand along the opposite sideline and large temporary grandstands in the endzone. Total investment: $45.5M.

It would take a lot of work for the Argonauts to move in. It would almost certainly be necessary to remove the track and dig down into the playing surface to add to the seating on the sidelines and the endzones. This would likely be contested by Track & Field interests, and would probably require building a small substitute track facility and practice field somewhere else on campus or nearby, which would cost $$$. A second permanent grandstand would be needed opposite the current one, and would need to be plenty larger than the existing one. A potential torpedo to the whole project: the trees on that side seem to be the "protected Boyer Woodlot", which likely means it can't be disturbed and there would be a whole whack of restrictions on what the facility could build on that side.

Bottom line: Nowhere near ready for the Argos to move in, but with considerable investment and barring a couple potential landmines, might still be a better option than building their own stadium somewhere else.

[matthew]

be a practise facility at best. Don't think a full-time use stadium is in the works here.

[Invader]

The York stadium, just like the stadium in Moncton, is totally unsuitable for the CFL without a complete renovation. Better off for the Argos to build a fresh stadium in a more suitable location. The onus is on the 3 levels of gov't to help finance the Argos new stadium. Governments have built stadiums for every other CFL team, with three under construction at this time. The Argos need their own building to remain competitive in the CFL.

[Gill The Thrill]

Boy, even in Grey Cup week the stadium issue gets posts...and I thought I was obsessed with it.:D I'm pretty sure the Track and Field Stadium will be getting built to replace their present outdoor Track and Field stadium and is east of the subway station and the present football stadium.

The Football stadium if you can call it a stadium, (I guess you can since there is a permanent concrete made dressing rooms for teams and officials under their wooden bleacher seats) has plenty of room for expansion and would have been the location of the proposed location that was beautifully designed for Canadian Football and Soccer. It is to the west of the subway station being built and a stone's throw from people getting to a game by public transit via Subway. There is expansion room because further west of that is 2 practice football fields, and possibly a rugby field before you get to the parking lot and the Beatrice Ice Gardens....that site would be sweet with a Subway going straight there and with plenty of parking. Whether it happens is upto those ...in charge of such decisions. York U was all gung-ho about improving that Football stadium as I'm sure a more modern facility with more training rooms and meeting rooms, not just dressing rooms will help attract good student athletes. York U is also facing a situation where they are falling behind. Many schools have improved their football facilities and with athletic scholarships slowly taking more of a role in recruiting for Ontario Universities, they have to keep up.

It would be a win-win for both, as the clock is running. Looking at the Argos situation, they are paying rent to play in a stadium that is owned by the MLB team owner and the Blue Jays are now 1 of only 2 teams left that play on an artificial surface. Natural Grass costumized Baseball stadiums for MLB teams have become the norm since pretty much the day after Skydome was finished....the roof on the dome was world innovative and cutting edge, but the spectator sightlines, and cookie cutter design serving multi-purpose needs rendered the Skydome a relic of outdoor multi-purpose stadiums built in the late 60's and early 70's in the United States. The Jays will eventually realize (if they have not) that the investments that they're making in their players carears will be better served by going to a natural surface which preserves knees, ankles and achilles tendon's better than turf, especially for the infielders who frequently attempt dives to retrieve ground balls.

This realization alone should hopefully make a future Argo owner, if not this one who is holding the team in trust, pro-active in partnering with another group like York to build a stadium. What would be worse is waiting, and not being pro-active and then getting thrown out of the dome, having no place to play, nor being prepared for that situation. If you think waiting for dates at Rogers Centre is terrible for promoting your schedule and selling season tickets, imagine how not even having a stadium ready to move into will hinder season seat sales....Ask the Hamilton Ticats, whom are annoying some present season ticket holders because of their uncertainty for next season.

They should at least be speaking, and maybe already have with the City of Toronto, or York or any group that has a large field that could at least be temporarily converted to house a larger stadium.....If not, York, perhaps even a temporary setup at Birchmount Stadium or Esther Shiner Stadium, which are two city-owned facilities that play host to many minor football games on a Canadian Football regulation field. They'd obviously need work, and are not long term solutions but unlike Lamport Stadium, and BMO field, the length of the field is already suitable.