Free Agency Countdown [Archive]

bluto

01-17-2012, 11:45 AM

February 15 is looming... anyone getting nervous or excited?

...have to admit that i had thought a few more of our guys would have been re-upped by this point so that our player personnel department could get on with the business of tampering with prospective free agents and tapping up agents of same...

our list as it stands:

<tbody>
Toronto Argonauts

PLAYER
POS
HT
WT
COLLEGE
STATUS

BELL, Dalton (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/2060)
QB
6.03
215
West Texas A&M
Free Agent

BLACK, Matt (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/2313)
DB
5.09
189
Saginaw Valley State
Re-signed 30/12/11 (http://www.cfl.ca/article/boatmen-re-sign-matt-black-and-jeff-johnson)

BUZBEE, Alex (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/3079)
DE
6.04
266
Georgetown
Free Agent

EIBEN, Kevin (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/213)
LB
6.01
216
Bucknell
Free Agent

ISHOLA, Ben (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/2357)
DE
6.03
242
Indiana
Free Agent

JOHNSON, Jeff (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/175)
RB
5.10
218
York
Re-signed 30/12/11 (http://www.cfl.ca/article/boatmen-re-sign-matt-black-and-jeff-johnson)

MURPHY, Rob (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/881)
OL
6.06
318
Ohio State
Free Agent

PARKER, Byron (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/400)
CB
6.00
220
Tulane
Free Agent

PICARD, Dominic (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/593)
OL
6.02
301
Laval
Free Agent

PILE, Willie (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/949)
DB
6.03
210
Virginia Tech
Free Agent

POTTINGER, Jason (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/724)
LB
6.02
228
McMaster
Free Agent

ROBERTSON, Taylor (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/310)
OL
6.06
317
Central Florida
Free Agent

YOUNGER, Jordan (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/250)
CB
5.10
210
Connecticut
Re-signed 05/01/12 (http://www.cfl.ca/article/back-on-board-argos-extend-durie-and-younger)

</tbody>

am i the only one who would sleep a bit sounder with (at least) some of our vital non-imports sewn up?

CFL Free Agent Tracker page here: http://www.cfl.ca/page/2012-free-agent-tracker

i (http://www.cfl.ca/page/2012-free-agent-tracker)t's the dull days of the CFL off-season lads... let's throw around some fantasy GM chatter.

edit: Poll added

eiben35

01-17-2012, 01:19 PM

We need to sign Picard and not re-sign Murphy and Robertson. That saves up money for Ray's contract and it let's Joe Eppelle play. I would sign Buzbee and maybe Parker unless he is asking for too much and of course thay should re-sign Kevin Eiben.

1argoholic

01-17-2012, 01:29 PM

I voted for Parker. I don't want to lose him. He's all class.

backer@oldclarke

01-17-2012, 02:01 PM

I voted for D. Picard; from what I've seen, Dominic plays an important role on the O-Line.

ArgoRavi

01-17-2012, 05:24 PM

Will

01-17-2012, 05:48 PM

I voted for Picard as well. Only one of Murphy or Robertson will be back but there is a good chance that neither will be and I believe that the Argos would be fine without them (no disrespect intended to those players). Picard is the one free agent offensive lineman that I believe the team needs to sign as he is the most difficult to replace.

I agree with you here Ravi. Some of us are willing to see what Eppele and Coughman could do in place of Robertson and Murphy, but I don't think there's a guy who would step into Picard's shoes so quickly. It does concern me that two out of the three starting linebackers (albeit they were injury riddled) are free agents in Eiben and Pottinger. I'd love for Eiben and Parker to stick around in Toronto and go for a Grey Cup. I know that Eiben was a big part of the 2004 team, but Parker joined the team in 2005 and hasn't got a ring yet. I want it to be with the Toronto Argonauts!a

KCargosfan

01-17-2012, 07:10 PM

Yes -- Picard, Parker, Robertson, Buzbee.

No -- Bell, Murphy.

What's the health status of Eiben and Pottinger?

Voted for Picard, just fyi.

Area 51

01-17-2012, 09:24 PM

Picard is a no-brainer for me. I think he's clearly the best player on the list, and also entering his prime.

I think Pottinger really hurt his chances at a new contract by coming back to play on his torn knee last year instead of getting surgery and starting the rehab process. Put himself in a terrible position for negotiations.

Interesting to note his name wasn't even included on the survey list. Was that an intentional omission or an unintentional oversight?

OV Argo

01-17-2012, 09:57 PM

I'd like to see all those guys (except Bell) re-signed; just don`t guarantee a bunch of vets roster spots or playing time just because; also will older guys who have had some injury problems (like Eiben & Murphy) be wanted with their big price tagsÉ - restructuring $$$ perhapsÉ

Picard is a good C and like to see him re-signed; but the Argos have a couple of experienced guys with C experience in Gagne-Marcoux and St-Pierre if Picard goes elsewhere.

Love to see Eiben and Parker re-signed too - a nucleus of solid vets to lead the D would be very good IMO - those 2 + J. Younger (back in the D-backfield) and Foley = experienced, quality D players and they can still play at a high level IMO; i understand some want to see youth or new (or cheaper) blood, but not just for the sake of change or a new coach wanting to clean house; Jones and the Stamps D the past few years seemed like a revolving door show of ex-NFLers - with little continuity and they were often weak IMO; i don`t care much for the great àthlete`or name resume types` some CFL coaches are high on handing playing time to; sorry, rather see solid football players and a D that plays smart & together

argolio

01-18-2012, 01:36 AM

paulwoods13

01-18-2012, 08:12 AM

I voted for Picard, but if we do lose him, Gagne-Marcoux could move to centre. Just don't want to see G-M playing tackle ever again . . .

potts46

01-22-2012, 05:55 PM

Yes -- Picard, Parker, Robertson, Buzbee.

No -- Bell, Murphy.

What's the health status of Eiben and Pottinger?

Voted for Picard, just fyi.
Jay Pottinger is healing very quickly.. way ahead of schedule. As opposed to Area 51's opinion, he didn't do any further damage playing with torn ACL. The surgeon says he is healing well and will be good to go by training camp. Its is too bad that he played and helped a defense that was badly struggling with no experienced middle line backer in his absence and he is getting no recognition for his commitment to helping the team win games in any way he can, as he isn't even listed on the free agent vote list!. Good luck to whatever team he heads to!

Midnight Blue

01-22-2012, 06:46 PM

Jay Pottinger is healing very quickly.. way ahead of schedule. As opposed to Area 51's opinion, he didn't do any further damage playing with torn ACL. The surgeon says he is healing well and will be good to go by training camp. Its is too bad that he played and helped a defense that was badly struggling with no experienced middle line backer in his absence and he is getting no recognition for his commitment to helping the team win games in any way he can, as he isn't even listed on the free agent vote list!. Good luck to whatever team he heads to!

Good point about Pottinger; he played grittily through the last couple of years, when the D was on the field for what seemed like 40 min. a game. For that very reason (respect, recognition and appreciation) I'm gonna vote for Willie Pile. Same deal.

Same deal with Eiben, Parker, Younger ... hell, what a Defence. Kept us in most games the last couple of years.
Win or lose. Thank you, Gentlemen.

potts46

01-22-2012, 07:11 PM

Midnight Blue,,great post! I noticed how Willie Pile flew around the field, trying to cover for the new guys who were lost trying to replace the play of Eiben and Pottinger. He was everywhere and sometimes looked worn out. He is another player that doesn't get enough appreciation for his play and dedication to the team.

Wobbler

01-22-2012, 11:10 PM

ArgoRavi

01-22-2012, 11:38 PM

In 2011, we ranked last in the league in 19 of 25 team defensive statistics. The only area in which we did well was "passing TDs allowed" (24, tied for second place). Other than Foley, I don't think anyone's job is safe.

Those stats are sobering. We shouldn't forget how teams moved the ball on the defence almost at will for most of last season.

Area 51

01-23-2012, 03:33 AM

Same deal with Eiben, Parker, Younger ... hell, what a Defence. Kept us in most games the last couple of years.
Win or lose. Thank you, Gentlemen.

What? I must be missing the sarcasm in your post, because last year's defence was a complete embarassment. The schemes were pathetic and the execution was even worse.

Don't let your judgement get clouded just because a couple of defensive players post here once in a while spouting off about how hard they're trying. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to see the players make a statement on the field instead of on a message board.

Mulder

01-23-2012, 09:32 AM

What? I must be missing the sarcasm in your post, because last year's defence was a complete embarassment. The schemes were pathetic and the execution was even worse.

Don't let your judgement get clouded just because a couple of defensive players post here once in a while spouting off about how hard they're trying. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to see the players make a statement on the field instead of on a message board.

I wouldn't expect a team that was the worst in the league in Time of Possession to lead any defensive category. When we did have the ball we weren't getting first downs (last in the league), throwing the ball to the other team (last in interceptions against), with only 1 off the league lead in most fumbles lost. Yeah, so our defence is bagged when they get to the field.

Of course defence only matters if we are able to stop or lower the points against us. Or maybe we are spoiled by watching the good defences of 2005-2007? Hell even the 2010 season we were first in the league in average points allowed per game.

potts46

01-23-2012, 10:09 PM

I wouldn't expect a team that was the worst in the league in Time of Possession to lead any defensive category. When we did have the ball we weren't getting first downs (last in the league), throwing the ball to the other team (last in interceptions against), with only 1 off the league lead in most fumbles lost. Yeah, so our defence is bagged when they get to the field.

Of course defence only matters if we are able to stop or lower the points against us. Or maybe we are spoiled by watching the good defences of 2005-2007? Hell even the 2010 season we were first in the league in average points allowed per game.

Exactly, our defence was the first in the league in 2010 but last year we had key injuries in our linebackers in 2011 and a couple of defensive linemen suffered foot and ankle injuries which hindered their play. We also won the semi- final against Ticats with this defense with a not so great offence and not so great QB. It would be a mistake to shake up our defence in any way in the year we want to play in the Grey Cup. Taking a chance on younger or newer defences to save a few bucks makes no sense.

ArgoGabe22

01-23-2012, 10:25 PM

I would love see every FA on defence back next season but the reality is we can't afford to resign all of them. Someone has to go which is unfortunate but a part of the game. It is a business afterall.

Area 51

01-24-2012, 12:23 AM

Exactly, our defence was the first in the league in 2010 but last year we had key injuries in our linebackers in 2011 and a couple of defensive linemen suffered foot and ankle injuries which hindered their play.

First in the league for what? Fewest points allowed in 2010, but that's a very shortsighted measurement of how great a defence is. Look at the underlying stats and get the full story...

2010 Toronto faced the most pass attempts but allowed the second highest completion rate against and had the fewest sacks. How do you interpret those numbers? To me it shows a soft and passive defence that doesn't make any plays and allows the opposing offence to dictate the flow. Fewest points allowed, but the rest of the defensive stats don't support that being sustainable. It was a complete anomolay.

2011 Toronto once again faced the most pass attempts, allowed the highest completion rate and had the second fewest sacks. Not surprisingly, Toronto went from fewest points allowed to most points allowed. Same problems as 2010. If "injuries" was the explanation for 2011, how do you explain the struggles in 2010?

I would never define a great defence by the number of points allowed. My idea of a "great defence" is one that is agressive and intimidating to the point that once they get a smell of blood it becomes a feeding frenzy. Winnipeg had that in 2011. You could sense the fear opposing QBs had going up against the Bomber defence.

Winnipeg faced the fewest pass attempts but had the most INTs and the most sacks and the lowest completion percentage allowed. That's an agressive defence that makes plays.

Last year's defence was embarassing. The offence was just as bad, but they brought in a new QB and a new OC. So what needs to change on defence....new scheme? New players? Or do you think standing pat will somehow produce a different result?

Mulder

01-24-2012, 11:48 AM

First in the league for what? Fewest points allowed in 2010, but that's a very shortsighted measurement of how great a defence is. Look at the underlying stats and get the full story...

Wait..What? Isn't it the goal of the defence to to allow the least points? I honestly think it's one of the least shortsighted measurement. Infact, it's the end result of all the other defensive stats combined. The 2010 Argo's didn't lead in any other category.

2010 Toronto faced the most pass attempts but allowed the second highest completion rate against and had the fewest sacks. How do you interpret those numbers? To me it shows a soft and passive defence that doesn't make any plays and allows the opposing offence to dictate the flow. Fewest points allowed, but the rest of the defensive stats don't support that being sustainable. It was a complete anomolay.

That Quarterback in Montreal is partly how I see those numbers. We played Montreal 4 times in 2010. Average gain per pass against? Best 2nd in the league. We both know how Calvillo likes to his 5-8 yard passing gains.

You can also ask Winnipeg how leading the lead in sacks in 2010 worked for them.

2011 Toronto once again faced the most pass attempts, allowed the highest completion rate and had the second fewest sacks. Not surprisingly, Toronto went from fewest points allowed to most points allowed. Same problems as 2010. If "injuries" was the explanation for 2011, how do you explain the struggles in 2010?

Wasn't there some injuries on the defence as well? We stole games in 2010. We owned the ball over a minute and a half more as well. Special teams put us in good field placement more often. Giving the defence more time to stop before scoring.

Winnipeg held on to the ball over 2 minutes more in 2011 than 2010, Riders less 2 minutes. in 2011 than 2010. Is that any coincidence of the final results because of that?

I would never define a great defence by the number of points allowed. My idea of a "great defence" is one that is agressive and intimidating to the point that once they get a smell of blood it becomes a feeding frenzy. Winnipeg had that in 2011. You could sense the fear opposing QBs had going up against the Bomber defence.

Winnipeg faced the fewest pass attempts but had the most INTs and the most sacks and the lowest completion percentage allowed. That's an agressive defence that makes plays.

What was different between the 2010 Blue Bomber team and the 2011 Blue Bomber team?

Last year's defence was embarassing. The offence was just as bad, but they brought in a new QB and a new OC. So what needs to change on defence....new scheme? New players? Or do you think standing pat will somehow produce a different result?

I thought the last 4 games last season the defence started looking better, but that won't change how bad they were earlier in the season either. We were picked apart. An offence that moves the ball would help out a lot. How many times did we go 2 and out? Or did we kick the ball and it was still on our side of half when the other team took over?

bluto

01-24-2012, 11:59 AM

beautifully illustrated MulderS.

the only stat i concern myself with on either side of the ball is the amounts of points generated or surrendered. yes, you can go further into the relationship of how the one effects the other vis a vis T.O.P and other things, but your main duty on offence is to create points and your main chore on defence is to deny points. you can accomplish either in a multitude of ways... and those ways will manipulate the lesser stats as a result.

bottom line: we need to be much better at stopping the opposition from scoring in 2012. doesn't matter how.

Area 51

01-24-2012, 01:49 PM

Wait..What? Isn't it the goal of the defence to to allow the least points? I honestly think it's one of the least shortsighted measurement. Infact, it's the end result of all the other defensive stats combined. The 2010 Argo's didn't lead in any other category.

"...didn't lead in any other category." That's my point - - the underlying stats didn't support it. Might have looked good on paper to see the fewest points allowed, but the rest of the defensive numbers were a mess. It was an abberation that was not sustainable and caught up with them the next year. You've heard of statistical regerssion?

That Quarterback in Montreal is partly how I see those numbers. We played Montreal 4 times in 2010. Average gain per pass against? Best 2nd in the league. We both know how Calvillo likes to his 5-8 yard passing gains.

Once again, you're missing the full story. Played Montreal 4 times, but Calvillo only played in 3 of them. Remember the last game of 2010? Montreal scrub QBs didn't even break 150yds passing. So that explanation doesn't hold water.

You can also ask Winnipeg how leading the lead in sacks in 2010 worked for them.

Try looking beyond the obvious numbers. A 4-14 season is terrible, but nine of those loses were by 4 or fewer points. Winnipeg's brutal 2010 record was just as deceiving as Toronto's "league leading" defence allowing the fewest points. Winnipeg defence was also near the top of several other categories in 2010.

What was different between the 2010 Blue Bomber team and the 2011 Blue Bomber team?

Going from a good defence to a great defence? Having Tim Burke take over as DC and DB coach was a big part of it. Adjusted the scheme and you see the results - - Winnipeg didn't just sack the QB, they became a fearsome defence. Didn't have the all-important "fewest points allowed" but they did lead the league in several defensive categories.

I thought the last 4 games last season the defence started looking better, but that won't change how bad they were earlier in the season either. We were picked apart.

Fortunately, I don't think Chris Jones is going to come in and decide to just leave everything unchanged. The defensive scheme was pathetic and I'm sure he'll scrap it for soemthing much more aggressive. It'd be great to bring everybody back and win with the same guys, but the reality is there's too many weak links to stand pat for another year of continuity.

Mulder

01-24-2012, 04:03 PM

"...didn't lead in any other category." That's my point - - the underlying stats didn't support it. Might have looked good on paper to see the fewest points allowed, but the rest of the defensive numbers were a mess. It was an abberation that was not sustainable and caught up with them the next year. You've heard of statistical regerssion?

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I also called it odd. It doesn't change the fact the goal is still the same. Allow less points than your opposition. The Argos did that in 2010.

Once again, you're missing the full story. Played Montreal 4 times, but Calvillo only played in 3 of them. Remember the last game of 2010? Montreal scrub QBs didn't even break 150yds passing. So that explanation doesn't hold water.

I think you've missed the full story on this one. Montreal completed 68.7% of their passes against us (which was still higher than our stat) Calvillo completed 76.3% of his passes vs us. (97 of 129) . And yes, I remember that last game in 2010. Hamilton completed 69.2 as well.

Try looking beyond the obvious numbers. A 4-14 season is terrible, but nine of those loses were by 4 or fewer points. Winnipeg's brutal 2010 record was just as deceiving as Toronto's "league leading" defence allowing the fewest points. Winnipeg defence was also near the top of several other categories in 2010.

I'm confused, your telling us to look beyond the numbers while at the same time shoving other numbers to the forfront? The end result is 9 times Winnipeg couldn't hold onto their lead or come back, and wasn't good enough, lost.

Going from a good defence to a great defence? Having Tim Burke take over as DC and DB coach was a big part of it. Adjusted the scheme and you see the results - - Winnipeg didn't just sack the QB, they became a fearsome defence. Didn't have the all-important "fewest points allowed" but they did lead the league in several defensive categories.

Because stumbling into the playoffs (1-3) Almost 0-4. Is a sign of a great defence. You seem so high about Winnipeg last season makes me think your actually a bomber fan. Either that or you got caught up in swaggerville. I dunno.

Wasn't it you I disagreed with last year? You predicted a good season for Sask ? Durant an elite qb? I predicted a flop? #justsaying

Fortunately, I don't think Chris Jones is going to come in and decide to just leave everything unchanged. The defensive scheme was pathetic and I'm sure he'll scrap it for soemthing much more aggressive. It'd be great to bring everybody back and win with the same guys, but the reality is there's too many weak links to stand pat for another year of continuity.

Yes last year was bad, I'm sure Chris Jones is going to make some changes. I also don't believe you can overhaul an entire defence and expect success.

ArgoRavi

01-24-2012, 06:38 PM

OV Argo

01-24-2012, 07:18 PM

Out of curiosity, how many new starters do you all believe the Argos will have on defence? How many new starters on defence should they have? I don't think that Jones will completely clean house on defence but I suspect that we will see at least four new starters along with a more aggressive scheme.

Yeah - that should be interesting Ravi; someone said in this thread that maybe Foley would be the only guy on D whose job is safe - and that could be right. Though i hope they retain a lot of the vets (all of them even) to give them a shot at a tough, competitive TC.

The D-line, outside of Foley, was a major disappointment last season IMO - for some reason they just weren't consistent or that strong; but I'd like to see all 3 of Flemons, Huntley and Wroten back, if they are healthy and hungry, to see if they could play to their potential; also like to see Greg Alexandre get a real look to see if he could contribute at DT; and Jon Pierre-Etienne could be a nice FA pick-up if he could pan-out at the CFL level - good play-making D-Lineman in CIS ball; and bring in some new bodies for competition too; just don't get rid of guys for the sake of change.

LBs - will Pottinger start at MLB again? will an older Eiben be retained with his salary? could Pile be a force back at OLB again? - like to think those 3 could form a very good LB unit, but i won't be surprised to see changes, and possibly 3 different guys starting? - doubt there will be 2 starting NI linebackers.

DBs - are older guys like Parker and Younger going to be kept and as starters? I really like Shell and hope he is there still; i believe McCullough was getting an NFL try-out? Could Matt Black step-up to start at corner? Might be several changes in the D-backfield? - but again i hope a number of guys are not cut just for the sake of change ...

... cause IMO the current roster features a lot of good, talented defensive players; so sure, bring in some new talent for TC competition, but i hope the new coaching staff is not going to make wholesale changes before TC just for the sake of some sort of house cleaning / their stamp on the team statement?

The Stamps D that Jones was part of has featured quite the revolving door of new faces over the past few seasons - not much continuity (maybe injury issues forced a lot of that though?) - featured a lot of ex-NFL roster guys = plenty of talent but IMO they never gelled into a consistent, tough defence. The new staff may bring in a bunch of other such ex-NFL types for TC, and the Argos' D could see a lot of changes, but it's not that easy to mold a really good defence - especially without some vets for leadership - and with a bunch of guys who are not used to playing together. Jones' D in Calgary last year did seem to feature a lot of subbing with some back-ups getting real action - that's a smart thing IMO.

Area 51

01-24-2012, 08:25 PM

I'm confused, your telling us to look beyond the numbers while at the same time shoving other numbers to the forfront? The end result is 9 times Winnipeg couldn't hold onto their lead or come back, and wasn't good enough, lost.

Let me try to clarify again - - look beyond the obvious numbers, ie. Win/Loss record, points allowed, when you're evaluating performance. You could look at a game that was 31- 24 and say wow, that was a close one! But if the winner dominated for 59 minutes and the loser managed two TDs in the final minute, would you still try to say it was a tight game?

Win/Loss record aside, most stats in 2010 pointed to Winnipeg having a much better team than their record indicted. So knowing that they're close to being a good team, it didn't make sense to blow things up. And aside from "points allowed" in 2010, most of the other stats indicated Toronto was much worse than on defence than it might first appear to someone unwilling/unable to look past the obvious. So naturally Toronto decided to stand pat. How did that decision work out?

Because stumbling into the playoffs (1-3) Almost 0-4. Is a sign of a great defence. You seem so high about Winnipeg last season makes me think your actually a bomber fan. Either that or you got caught up in swaggerville. I dunno.

I loved Winnipeg's defensive approach last year. That was my ideal of what a great defense should be. The identity of a team almost always comes from it's defence. They were agressive, knocked people out, made big plays and most importantly they intimated the opposition. You get a defence that does that and the team will have success regardless of how the offence performs.

Wasn't it you I disagreed with last year? You predicted a good season for Sask ? Durant an elite qb? I predicted a flop? #justsaying

That's entirely possible, since much of what I post here is met with disagreement from posters as well as players. I'm sure you're familiar with my comments on Byron Parker that got national media coverage and ended up getting me banned from further posts.

I definitely consider Durant one of the top QBs in the league. Riders were a complete mess last year just like Toronto, but in three years as a starter Durant has two Grey Cup appearances. If not for a teammate that couldn't count, he'd have a ring. You can't name a tougher QB. And most importantly, he's not afraid to be aggressive and take a chance on making a play.

\

Out of curiosity, how many new starters do you all believe the Argos will have on defence? How many new starters on defence should they have? I don't think that Jones will completely clean house on defence but I suspect that we will see at least four new starters along with a more aggressive scheme.

Earlier this off season I projected they needed to immediately replace two starters on defence and should look to upgrade seven others.

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?80-The-Year-In-Review-2011-Individual-Argo-Report-Cards-DEFENCE

Probably not realistic to expect the new staff to turn over 3/4 of the defence, but anywhere from four to six new starters would not surprise me at all. Anything less than two new starters and I'd say it's going to be more of the same struggles on D.

argolio

01-25-2012, 02:24 AM

Win/Loss record aside, most stats in 2010 pointed to Winnipeg having a much better team than their record indicted. So knowing that they're close to being a good team, it didn't make sense to blow things up. And aside from "points allowed" in 2010, most of the other stats indicated Toronto was much worse than on defence than it might first appear to someone unwilling/unable to look past the obvious. So naturally Toronto decided to stand pat. How did that decision work out?In hindsight obviously not that well, but I see no huge shame in opting to go with mostly the same team and coaches that took the team from 3-15 to 9-9 and a playoff win. Different story if no drastic changes were made after this past season.

I loved Winnipeg's defensive approach last year. That was my ideal of what a great defense should be. The identity of a team almost always comes from it's defence. They were agressive, knocked people out, made big plays and most importantly they intimated the opposition. You get a defence that does that and the team will have success regardless of how the offence performs.Fair enough, but that was different than our defensive approach during our 2003-07 success. We were aggressive and intimidating at times, but also passive and reactive at other times, often for long stretches of a game. At its best, that defense adjusted well at the half or on the fly. And despite not having a great offense most of those years, we were pretty consistent winners.

Winnipeg's D was interesting to watch but B.C. impressed me more -- starting Khalif Mitchell at tackle in August, going to the 4-3 full-time, and winning all but one of their remaining games. Give me winnerville over swaggerville.

jerrym

01-26-2012, 07:53 AM

I hope the Argos keep Picard, Parker, Pile, Potinger, Eiben, and Buzbee in that order. Picard is the foundation of the offensive line; Parker, although not a great cover guy, is the ultimate ball hawk; Pile is a leader and hard tackler; Potinger and Eiben provide Canadian depth and the potential to start; and Buzbee is a solid backup in a position where backups get a significant amount of playing time. Bell and Ishola have shown little; Murphy, although once great, is old and expensive; Robertson has gone downhill. I like the resigning of Black, am comfortable with Johnson (a fine utility player although we need to focus on finding a replacement, such as Canadian free agent Calvin McCarty, at his age by net year at the latest), but wonder if Younger, whom I have always liked, is past his prime.

Pinner31

01-26-2012, 05:25 PM

Will

01-26-2012, 05:35 PM

Hello everyone, it seems that everyone is EXCITED about the change......but one statistic that everyone seems to be forgetting is that the defence that gave up the most TD's last year were the Calgary Stampeders. Does that not matter?

The Stampeders still finished with 476 points against versus 498 points against by the Argos.

I was just looking at the standings to check that out BTW, and realized not one team gave up 500+ points this season.

JY26

01-26-2012, 05:45 PM

Just throwing out a few facts and few opinions

-Darian Durant is one of toughest QBs in the CFL and definitely one of the most athletic but i wouldn't put him in the same category as a Calvillo, Ray, or Burris. The Riders went from back to back Grey Cup appearances to the worst team in the CFL. They change coaches and staff and they go from champion contender to basement of the CFL in ONE season. I believe that highlights the importance of coaching and scheme.

-Match coverage is one of the most complicated schemes that a defence can run but if mastered it affords the defence the ability to make adjustments on the fly and problem solve on the field as opposed to waiting to go to the sideline to make adjustments. As a complete defence we didn't pick it up fast enough (fact). I'd like to say to those of you that say we didn't play any man-to-man coverage this year that you are wrong. We were 60 match&zone/40 man for most of the season and the last 3 games of the season were at least 75 percent man-to-man.

-Some statistics have a stronger bearing on a team's success than others. In my opinion some statistics are cosmetic and some can have a huge impact on the outcome of games. In my years of playing turnovers have shown to be the number 1 statistic that effects winning and losing. We had 59 turnovers on offense this year and we only got back 25 on defence. Thats 59 extra possessions. Even if the opposing offence goes 2 and out after every turnover that is still at least 118 more plays over the course of a season.

-Having the #1 scoring defence is never an aberration. They record the statistics over an 18 game season. In order to lead the league in scoring defence there HAS to be both consistency and efficiency. EVERY defensive coordinator i have ever played for listed "limit the number of points scored" number one on his goal/priority list.
A cosmetic and often times misleading statistic in my opinion is passing yardage surrendered. Winnipeg's defence had an amazing year statiscally speaking. They made a lot of plays and they were fun to watch however they had a tendency to give up the big play at worst times. They finished one game above .500 at 10-8. Thats one game better than our record from the previous year.

-I have seen teams make serious runs at all levels with the best offense and the worst defence. I have never seen it the other way around. Offensive efficiency is one of the areas of the game that indirectly has a VERY strong effect on a defence's play. There are several main factors where having a good/efficient offence seriously effects the game. Take for example Montreal. Although they definitely have some good players i don't think they have a strong defence at all. Anthony Calvillo's accuracy and efficiency means that they hold the ball for the majority of the game and correspondingly the defence is on the field for less time. Less time equals less plays. Less plays equals fresher legs in the fourth quarter. Less plays also means that an offence has less attempts to figure a defence out. Another big advantage of having a strong offense is that you are often playing with a lead which allows a defence to gamble more often and more importantly it makes the game much more predictable. It is Montreal's offence that stops their opponents run game not their defence. The way Montreal controls the ball also makes it difficult for the opposing team's offence to get in a rhythm. On the flip side of that a team with a bad/inefficient offence faces more time on the field, more snaps, more punts, (which is a defensive dominated special team) and a greater variation of plays. When an offensive coordinator KNOWS he is going to get the ball back you see all they creativity come out...lol. You get run, pass, screens, play-action and you get them all game long. Couple that with running a complicated system and im sure you can understand why we didn't have much success on the defensive side of the ball. When playing on a football team that struggles offensively you can't afford to give up the big touchdown and especially not early in the game. If you allow a team to score early it can kill a struggling offence by putting too much pressure on them.

-In my opinion one of the biggest differences in the play of the defences from the 2010 and 2011 teams were the loss of Adriano Belli and the injuries to Kevin Eiben and Jason Pottinger. Not only did they both have SERIOUS injuries they also happened to play side by side on the field. The communication between the MLB and rest of the LBs is VITAL for playing against the run and the pass. (And even MORESO when playing match coverage) So not only did we have 2 first year starters at LB but we also had them playing side by side. This is in no way a knock on 1st year starters Ejiro Kuale or rookie Anthony Cannon but you can't replace SEVENTEEN years worth of experience in one season. Both Cannon and Kuale are special athletes and as they learn more about the CFL game they will only get better and better. We missed Belli on the interior of the line. Belli had a garbage man mentality and he enjoyed doing the dirty work. He took on most of the double team blocks so our other guys would have have 1 on 1 battles on the line. We missed that kind of mentality out there this year. the fact that we had 3 first year starters right in the middle of our defence was a challenge that we had some trouble adjusting to. Going into game 17 we made some moves due to injury. Will Pile moved to WLB, Nick Clement moved to SAM and i moved to Free Safety. We were all difference makers in the last couple of games of the season but the best thing about it was that it all happened naturally. We better utilized players specific skill sets and we got better results.

Like i said in my other post i want to be close to you guys and share ideas and opinions with you so that we can do this thing together. I check the forum pretty often so feel free to ask questions. Some things i can't/won't answer but i will do the best that i can. I love you guys. Even the negative ones because we all wear blue and like it or not we are in this together.

Will

01-26-2012, 05:57 PM

Was the loss of Willie Middlebrooks at CB also significant?

KCargosfan

01-26-2012, 06:52 PM

JY -- I'm guessing you can't respond to this, but can you comment at all on the release of Lin-J Shell? This came somewhat of a surprise to some of us. I'm guessing it was a salary cap issue.

Even if you can't respond, thanks for coming on here. That info about missing Belli and the 2 linebackers is a great point that I never even considered. Hopefully the haters on here don't scare you away.

Area 51

01-26-2012, 07:12 PM

They change coaches and staff and they go from champion contender to basement of the CFL in ONE season. I believe that highlights the importance of coaching and scheme.

Couldn't agree more. I've been the most vocal critic of the garbage offensive & defensive game plans and the need to overhaul both systems. Get in better schemes and Toronto can do the opposite of what Saskatchewan did last year.

We were 60 match&zone/40 man for most of the season and the last 3 games of the season were at least 75 percent man-to-man.

How much of an impact that change had on winning those last two games? Or what it just a coincidence?

Having the #1 scoring defence is never an aberration.

Have to disagree with you on this point. Being #1 in points allowed but near the bottom of so many other defensive categories just doesn't add up. It's like when a baseball pitcher has a great ERA but gave up a ton of walks & hits. Not sustainable.

Did the opponent march up and down the field and turn it over a couple times in the red zone? Did they have to settle for a few short FGs instead of TDs? Did a few dumb penalties stall some drives? If you try to rely on a "bend but don't break" defence, it's inevitably going to break. You can't just keep absorbing punches without getting knocked out. That's what happened in 2011.

I have seen teams make serious runs at all levels with the best offense and the worst defence. I have never seen it the other way around.

Huh? Have you never heard the expression "defence wins championships"? You must have missed Baltimore win the Super Bowl with a stiff like Trent Dilfer running a pathetic offence. Last two years the Jets have had a terrible offence and the equivalent of a scarecrow at QB, but they rode their defence all the way to the conference championships.

Look at New Orleans and Green Bay this year. Two of the greatest offensive attacks in history, but both had a lousy defence. Both got knocked out by opponents with a much weaker offence but great defense.

Really surprised and disappointed to hear someone who actually plays the game dismiss how much more critical it is to have a good defence
instead of a good offence.

We missed Belli on the interior of the line. Belli had a garbage man mentality and he enjoyed doing the dirty work. He took on most of the double team blocks so our other guys would have have 1 on 1 battles on the line.

Great point. And who was it that replaced Belli? Right.

So instead of Belli taking on a two blockers and clogging the middle you had Wroten thinking he was a pass rusher, not taking on any blocks and leaving his gap wide open. Sounds like it was pretty obvious for you to see - - couldn't the DLine coach figure that out and tell Wroten to keep his ass inside and collapse the pocket? Or was that message going up in smoke?

Going into game 17 we made some moves due to injury. Will Pile moved to WLB, Nick Clement moved to SAM and i moved to Free Safety. We were all difference makers in the last couple of games of the season but the best thing about it was that it all happened naturally. We better utilized players specific skill sets and we got better results.

I guess my question would be, what took so long to figure that out? Two different DCs and neither one could make the adjustments? Were they just too clueless about how to run a defence? What about the players - - didn't anyone step up and say "man, this isn't working out. I don't belong in this scheme, we need to change things up." Or was there too many players afraid to say anything because it might put their job in jeopardy?

That's the most telling statement that I've seen to explain the disaster of last year.

It took injuries to finally necessitate the proper changes on defence. Until then, it was just go out week after week and keep banging your head against the wall and getting the same losing results.

JY26

01-26-2012, 07:44 PM

-No i am the biggest believer in the mantra that defences win championships. The Baltimore Ravens had Trent Dilfer at QB and he was far from great but the Ravens certainly didn't have the worst ranked offence that year. If i remember correctly they were middle of the pack. And in case you forgot i play for the Toronto Argonauts who have rode defences to the conference championship game 5 of my 8 seasons played. I definitely get it. What was i was saying is that you never see a team with the WORST offense have a dominant defence.
-Match Coverage takes time to implement. We had Wroten, Kuale, Cannon, and Smalls all starting in their first year running a complicated scheme. They also happen to be some of the most important positions in a match system. MLB, WLB, Nose Tackle and boundary corner. You just don't give up on what you believe because you face some adversity not to mention we finished with the #1 scoring defence in the league the prior season running the same system with most of the same people. We didn't just have a bad offence. We had a very bad offence. We had SEVERAL games this year where we didn't have 200 yards passing......IN THE CFL.

TDs against-3rd
Fewest Field Goals-4th
Avg gain per completion-2nd
Avg gain per Rush-2nd
Rushing yards per game-4th

Those are the stats that aren't easily effected by poor offensive production such as downs played or Passes attempted against, Rushes attempted against, Net Yards Passing against, Net Yards rushing against. If you play more plays because the offence can't stay on the field you are going to give up more yards. Thats simple math. Its better to look at the averages. They give you a better idea of how you stack up against the other defences.

Pinner31

01-26-2012, 07:48 PM

Huh? Have you never heard the expression "defence wins championships"? You must have missed Baltimore win the Super Bowl with a stiff like Trent Dilfer running a pathetic offence. Last two years the Jets have had a terrible offence and the equivalent of a scarecrow at QB, but they rode their defence all the way to the conference championships.

Look at New Orleans and Green Bay this year. Two of the greatest offensive attacks in history, but both had a lousy defence. Both got knocked out by opponents with a much weaker offence but great defense.

Really surprised and disappointed to hear someone who actually plays the game dismiss how much more critical it is to have a good defence
instead of a good offence.

Someone please tell me this GUY isn't serious........The Patriots have the WORST defense in the ENTIRE NFL and they're going to the SUPER BOWL. Baltimore is at HOME and they have one of the best defenses in the whole NFL. Besides, we're talking about the CFL, you CANNOT win games if you don't score points.......PERIOD.

OV Argo

01-26-2012, 08:13 PM

There's plenty of cliches in sports - and they often get dragged out and used over & over on these type forums by the arm-chair QB experts - nature of the beast if you want to wade thru fan forums.

Appreciate your comments JY - and i get what you're saying. I'm looking forward to an improved Argo D this coming season - hopefully with a lot of the talent that is on the current roster, but maybe with a decent influx of some new guys playing (disappointed that Shell got cut at this point - i'm guessing mostly SMS posturing?

And, IMO - you can win in football with a great offence and an average type defence, AND, you can also win with a great defence and an average, not so spectacular offence. Plenty of examples of both happening in both the CFL and the NFL; so stop with the sweeping, definitive, cliche comments that are laughable please. And another factor is special teams - a big part of the game, and maybe moreso in the CFL. I want to see the Argos strong in all 3 facets of the game this coming season; and it starts with strong, smart coaching.

Area 51

01-26-2012, 08:31 PM

Someone please tell me this GUY isn't serious........The Patriots have the WORST defense in the ENTIRE NFL and they're going to the SUPER BOWL. Baltimore is at HOME and they have one of the best defenses in the whole NFL. Besides, we're talking about the CFL, you CANNOT win games if you don't score points.......PERIOD.

Any idea how many wins New England has against teams that finished above .500? One. Last week, against Baltimore. And if it hadn't been for Lee Evans doing his best Argo impersonation (dropping an easy catch) in the final seconds, New England would have been out.

Let's see how they do against the Giants.

Area 51

01-26-2012, 09:30 PM

Match Coverage takes time to implement. We had Wroten, Kuale, Cannon, and Smalls all starting in their first year running a complicated scheme. They also happen to be some of the most important positions in a match system. MLB, WLB, Nose Tackle and boundary corner. You just don't give up on what you believe because you face some adversity not to mention we finished with the #1 scoring defence in the league the prior season running the same system with most of the same people.

So if the personnel is struggling to understand the coverage, why not just make the switch to man coverage? It doesn't get more basic than that. Was it because you didn't have the speed or athleticisim to run man defence?

"Believed" in the system? It's ok to believe in the tooth fairy for a little while, but eventually you have to face reality. Surely the players & coaches must have looked at the film every week and seen the scheme was an epic failure. It was so simple to see opponents march up and down the field with short pass after short pass - - the coverage was 5 to 10 yards off the receiver every time. Why? You'd rather give up a 12 play 80yd drive than risk giving up an 80yd pass?

And then there was the missed tackles. How many times did three or four different would be tacklers completely whiff and end up lying on the turf? You could say the defence was too tired - - problem is the broken tackles happened from start to finish.

Bottom line, there's no point in reminiscing what went wrong last year. I'm hoping Jones & Milanovich will come in and blow up the garbage schemes we've seen on offence & defence, and more than anything bring some accountability to what turned into a country club atmosphere.

KCargosfan

01-26-2012, 10:22 PM

Huh? Have you never heard the expression "defence wins championships"? You must have missed Baltimore win the Super Bowl with a stiff like Trent Dilfer running a pathetic offence. Last two years the Jets have had a terrible offence and the equivalent of a scarecrow at QB, but they rode their defence all the way to the conference championships.

Look at New Orleans and Green Bay this year. Two of the greatest offensive attacks in history, but both had a lousy defence. Both got knocked out by opponents with a much weaker offence but great defense.

The 2000 Ravens offense ranked 14th in points scored and 16th in yards. Hardly pathetic.

The 2010 New York Jets offense was 13th in points and 11th in yards. Mark Sanchez threw for 3,300 yards and 17 TDS, not great, but not scarecrow.

The 2009 New York Jets offense was 17th in points and 20th in yards... and finished 9-7.

Conversely, the 1995 and 1997 Kansas City Chiefs had 2 of the best defenses I've seen in person and did nothing in the playoffs because the offense had to settle for field goal attempts.

You have to have something on offense, and we certainly did not in 2011.

JY26

01-27-2012, 01:51 AM

@Argofan87-i did leave out Willie Middlebrooks and i am sorry for that. We definitely missed his consistency and his physical presence.

@Area51-Im not a critic of the match system. I am a critic of the way that we didn't pick it up. It takes a lot of communication both pre snap and while the play is happening in order to run it effectively and we hadn't played together long enough in some spots to make it work. Playing aggressive man-to-man is definitely a more in your face style of defence but again the downside to it is that you are always vulnerable to the big play. Teams like Montreal and Sask's whole systems are designed to put heavy pressure on bump run defences. They have a whole trick bag of routes and combinations that put you in situation where you either have to trade men with the defender next to you or give up a step or 2 to your man and play him from trail technique. And just so you know Winnipeg, Edmonton, and the BC Lions who happen to be top 3 scoring defences in the league all ran forms of match coverage. I think if we would have had a whole training camp under Steinauer we would have a better understanding of how to play the defence. It was a lot to learn on the run.
If we were sitting in front of a television and we were watching game film it would be much easier to explain how easily a receiver can get wide open. All it really takes is for one defender to "match up" to the wrong receiver. There were 2 many times this year where we had 2 defenders on one man and another defender wide open.
Another issue we faced is that we got different game plans that other teams. They attacked us differently. So every week you have 4 first year starters different variations of plays for the first time. Its hard to get anything right the first time for most human beings. I'm not here making excuses. We didn't get it done. But what i would like you to understand that we aren't talking about a huge difference from one team to the next. We are talking about less than 7 points per game between the best scoring defence and the worst scoring defence. We are talking about finding a way to make about 5 more plays a game on offence and stopping 5 plays on defence.

Area 51

01-27-2012, 03:36 AM

Im not a critic of the match system. I am a critic of the way that we didn't pick it up. It takes a lot of communication both pre snap and while the play is happening in order to run it effectively and we hadn't played together long enough in some spots to make it work. Playing aggressive man-to-man is definitely a more in your face style of defence but again the downside to it is that you are always vulnerable to the big play.

If the players, and presumably the coaches too, recognize that they don't understand the defensive scheme, why keep running the same thing week after week? Yes I acknowledge you're taking a chance in putting the CBs on an island and if they're too slow or too small you can get burned. But there's risks with every defence and if a scheme is clearly not working, why not dumb things down into a simple man coverage? It's the most basic defence you can run - - there's not going to be a huge learning curve with it.

Teams attacked you differently because you were the only defence in the league that consistently gave up a 10yd cushion to receivers every game. It was a no brainer! Why throw it downfield when you know the receiver is going to be wide open for an easy 6 or 7yd gain, with a good chance there's be a missed tackle to add on yards after the catch?

With all the apologists for last year's train wreck defence, nobody's given an answer yet as to why the defensive scheme wasn't changed. The best one I've heard so far is that you couldn't change the defence because the offence was so pathetic. Really? Guess what, the defence was just as bad. And I haven't heard Dalton Bell complaining that the offence couldn't get into a rythm and score any points because the defence couldn't get the ball back and get off the field. That's what I mean about the lack of accountability. Just give a straight up honest answer instead of looking for excuses and pointing fingers.

We didn't change the scheme even though our defence was getting dominated every week because:

A) We didn't have the athletes to run man coverage.
B) Our coaches didn't understand how to draw up man coverage.
C) The law of averages means the scheme should eventually be successful.
D) No matter how painfully obvious it is, never admit that your scheme is garbage.

paulwoods13

01-27-2012, 07:09 AM

Thanks for the posts, JY. Really, really interesting insights. And you've been extremely courteous in responding to Area 51's relentless (and at this point totally unnecessary) attack on what happened last year.

Have to disagree with you on this point. Being #1 in points allowed but near the bottom of so many other defensive categories just doesn't add up. It's like when a baseball pitcher has a great ERA but gave up a ton of walks & hits. Not sustainable.

Area 51, despite your tendency to pile on over what happened in the past, you make a lot of interesting and valuable points. But you have completely lost me on this one. I don't know how you can describe a defence giving up the fewest points over 18 games as "not sustainable." Eighteen games is the entire season -- how much would it take to be considered sustainable? If you end the season with the fewest points allowed, then you were best at the most important stat a defence has. The objective is to win games, not surrender few first downs or few long bombs or anything else like that. You win games by outscoring the opposition -- to give yourself a chance to do that, you need to focus on not giving up points.

If a pitcher has a low ERA, he is doing his job and it doesn't matter how he gets there. He can give up three hits every inning, but if he then strikes out the side and allows no runs, he did what he was supposed to do.

bluto

01-27-2012, 08:09 AM

... If you end the season with the fewest points allowed, then you were best at the most important stat a defence has...

[/thread hijack]
not saying that it wasn't at times an informative and instructive hijack though...

back to the impending free agency deadline discussion, then?

Will

01-27-2012, 09:08 AM

Is the free agency deadline still February 16 or thereabouts?

zontar

01-27-2012, 09:19 AM

Aside from where Fantuz ends up I'm interested in seeing the climate change in WPG if they lose some key free agents.
Me thinks some previously well-thought of players might suddenly transform into "selfish" jerks and the GM of the team that signs them as "idiots" for "overpaying" said player(s).
Because it couldnt possibly be Mack's fault :shhhh:

bluto

01-27-2012, 12:29 PM

@argofan87: as far as i know, yup.

@Zontar: amazing how that goes on the prairie, ain't it? every 2 or 3 years into their "Unfinished Business" they get a new initial to substitute into their I_WT acronym. but yeah, they have several high priced free agents and one high profile retiree which gives them lots of SMS room being held by the guy with the tightest purse strings in the league. here we are on January 27 and all 3 of their QBs remain unsigned as well as their best WR and NI O-Lineman... throw in a promising young NI DT who i thought was looked at as Doug Brown's replacement (or at least as much as you can try to replace a guy like that... i mean, look what JY said losing Belli did to our D) and Mack has a lot on his plate. (but yes, you can be assured that anyone who would ever leave Winnipeg is a mercenary jerk lol)
read this for the lolz: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/football/bombers/what--me-worry-137812613.html

JY26

01-27-2012, 03:23 PM

@Area51-We ran our system one way under Chip Garber. Once Steinauer took over we ran it differently. There is a learning curve. It doesn't happen over the course of a game or 2. It takes time to perfect the system. It takes time to get used to playing next to new people. Also don't let the bitter taste of losing mislead you into thinking that we never had success running match coverage. If we ran it 30 snaps a game at the beginning of the season we were good on 20 of those snaps. We were trying to find a way week in and week out to perfect the system and eliminate those 10 bad plays. The bottom line is we weren't good ENOUGH at it.
i am going to give you some relative examples. Take the Philadelphia Eagles. They put together one of the most talented defences the NFL has seen in a while yet they struggled this year because they couldn't pick up the system quickly enough. You can't tell me that Asante Samuel and nnamdi asomugha aren't 2 of the best CBs in the league. Despite their PROVEN ability they struggled and looked bad at times because they didn't understand the strengths and weaknesses of the system they ran.
Take the Indianapolis Colts this season. Peyton Manning goes down and what was deemed one of the most aggressive and opportunistic Cover 2 defences in the NFL turned into one of the worst defences overnight. They Colts knew their defensive system very well and were one of the more veteran defences in the NFL. Take away their franchise qb and replace him with subpar qbs and you see what happened. They go from a 12 win team with a top 10 defence to a 2 win team with a bottom 10 defence.

In a perfect world i would love to play man to man every snap and be that aggressive but the rules in Canada are different from anywhere else. They give the receivers a head start on their way to the line of scrimmage. They make the defenders line up a yard off the ball. If 3 men bunch together and all disperse in different directions (a la Montreal, Sask, BC, Hamilton) and you are attempting to play man to man coverage it still turns into zone coverage because its not physically possible to chase them thru all of the traffic. There was not ONE good majority man-to-man defence in the league this year. You need to play some man-to-man defence in this league but you cant' live by it. You have to have some good zone schemes in order to change the look up for the QBs. AND you need an offence to balance out the flow of the game. Ask EVERY qb what style of defence they would prefer to play against and all of them will tell you man-to-man because the reads are the easiest. Ask any QB what defence they don't want to play against and they will say match coverage because it is so hard to read.
I completely understand why you are critical of how we played last season. I am even more critical of the way played. I am not trying to change your mind about how you viewed last season. I am trying to give you some insight into why we struggled. I am trying to get you to understand that we tried and we didn't get it done but its not because of physical ability. There were a lot of factors that contributed to us being unsuccessful. Your advice was to simplify what we were doing (dumb it down) but unfortunately if it is dumb to us it is also dumb to the team we are playing against.

bluto

02-10-2012, 11:18 AM

so Free Agency's deadline just moved up 12 hours... not sure if i saw/heard a reason given, but it does seem to make more sense to have it happen at noon rather than midnight.

we still have some very important guys unsigned and not a peep out of our local journos who allegedly cover this beat... (in fact i'm going to fire off a complaint to the local sports section editors and would encourage you guys to do likewise... demanding the coverage and letting them know that it has an audience who is looking for it is the only way we'll get it)

Picard... Pottinger... Pile... Parker... i'd love to see a press conference very soon where the "4 P's" announce their new contracts...

Barks...?

ArgoRavi

02-11-2012, 11:43 AM

I really believe that we have to be prepared to say goodbye to several of our free agents at this point. I still remember Byron Parker saying goodbye to us back in October so he must have known something that we will only find out about over the next week or two. Also, I think that at least one of Rob Murphy and Taylor Robertson will sign with Hamilton who have huge needs on their offensive line. The players who we have a better chance of re-signing IMO are Picard, Pottinger and Eiben (assuming that the coaching staff want either of the last two back) but fans should be prepared to say their goodbyes to several players including some very popular ones.

ArgoGabe22

02-12-2012, 02:44 PM

The more BP tweets the more I think (hope not) he's leaving.

Area 51

02-12-2012, 11:28 PM

KCargosfan

02-13-2012, 12:02 AM

The more BP tweets the more I think (hope not) he's leaving.

Agreed. You might as well throw a Lions jersey on him right now.

AngeloV

02-13-2012, 12:51 AM

WIth Stubler in as the new DC with the Lions and seeing how they jumped all over Shell, maybe BC will end up taking Pile & Parker...maybe even bringing back Pottinger to BC.

As for the idea of Murphy or Robertson signing in Hamilton, it's going to be interesting to see what happens with Jason Jiminez. I don't know about you, but I'd be happy to replace Murphy with Jiminez. I've always liked the toughness/agressiveness of Jiminez - - similar to what Belli used to bring to the team. Jiminez gets a bad rep as being a dirty player, but I think that's really been overblown.

No chance Jimenez comes here to replace Murphy. He has played RT his whole CFL career. I think he's highly overrated not to mention a dirty player. The last thing the Argos need is a cheap shot on Ricky Ray as retaliation of a cheap shot by their OT.

argolio

02-13-2012, 01:07 AM

I'd want nothing to do with Jimenez. Even without his deserved rep as a cheap-shot artist, I think he's no better than average.

bluto

02-15-2012, 11:23 AM

37 minutes to go... :fart:

1argoholic

02-15-2012, 11:43 AM

Signing a backup qb will be very important. With Ray most likely playing infront of a whole new O line he may get killed.

bluto

02-15-2012, 12:00 PM

i'd take Jarious at a good (read: low) price. i'm more concerned at this point about defence.

i think we have enough, quality bodies to have a good O-Line again. i think that Ray + Barnes, Mann and the rest will be good through the air and Boyd could be in for a career year under Milanovich.

it looks like the plan to get younger and cheaper is focusing on the defence... so those 10 free agent camps and Barker's tour of NFL camps hopefully will uncover the next influx of talent for us... because we are losing several mainstays here and need to reload.

bluto

02-15-2012, 12:04 PM

Stamps ? When did we get him ?
lol, my bad. obviously meant Barnes. corrected.

bluto

02-15-2012, 12:09 PM

and... it's after 12...

do we still have a defence? ;)

bluto

02-15-2012, 12:25 PM

Eskimos sign Greg Carr... and a RB as yet unnamed (doesn't really narrow it down... Cobourne, Cates etc...)

bluto

02-15-2012, 12:36 PM

turns out an Eskie fan trolled everyone by posting about Greg Carr and a RB... and it got re-tweeted by pretty much the whole country...

i guess we walked right into that one. i hope his fellow Eskie fans hold him down and give him wedgies and pink-bellys for getting their hopes up.

i love this day already.

R.J

02-15-2012, 01:04 PM

I guess technically this would be the first signing.
TSNDaveNaylor David William Naylor
OL Glenn January's re-signing with Winnipeg, reported as close yesterday, is apparently done.
IMWT

bluto

02-15-2012, 01:16 PM

I guess technically this would be the first signing.
IMWT

love it :D

bluto

02-15-2012, 02:02 PM

Some more rumors Oramasionwu is another guy I wouldn't mind seeing in an Argos uni, might be too expensive though.

since he's born, raised and schooled in Winnipeg... and the Bombers have little ratio flexibility, i wonder why they'd let him go? either they're sure that Muamba is their MLB next season... or Donny O isn't up to par (in their eyes)?

R.J

02-15-2012, 02:46 PM

Have no idea bluto, I thought he was the guy they wanted to "replace" Brown. BTW anyone else getting PO'd with all the little remarks Madani makes on his twitter feed about CFL FA ?

bluto

02-15-2012, 03:08 PM

Have no idea bluto, I thought he was the guy they wanted to "replace" Brown. BTW anyone else getting PO'd with all the little remarks Madani makes on his twitter feed about CFL FA ?

go easy on him. he's likely enjoying the one day of the year where he is the most watched guy in canadian football. let him milk it a little.

R.J

02-15-2012, 03:43 PM

Based on various speculative tweets from "insiders" Carr either going to Edm or stays in the Peg.

go easy on him. he's likely enjoying the one day of the year where he is the most watched guy in canadian football. let him milk it a little.I'm sorry bluto but this isn't necessary, I wanted to forget who he is.
ArashMadani Arash Madani
To #CFL GM's out there looking for a QB: Cleo Lemon is still available.

ArgoRavi

02-15-2012, 04:00 PM

Signing a backup qb will be very important. With Ray most likely playing infront of a whole new O line he may get killed.

I wouldn't say that this is a whole new o-line. The only guy missing from the second half of last season would be Picard. I am excited about the o-line that the Argos have as they have some promising, young linemen in Eppele and Coughman who did not look out of place at all in the final half of last season.

bluto

02-15-2012, 04:10 PM

I'm sorry bluto but this isn't necessary, I wanted to forget who he is.

good call... that Lemon comment wasn't necessary

I wouldn't say that this is a whole new o-line. The only guy missing from the second half of last season would be Picard. I am excited about the o-line that the Argos have as they have some promising, young linemen in Eppele and Coughman who did not look out of place at all in the final half of last season.

been awhile since we were this awash in promising young canadian hogs, hasn't it?

ArgoGabe22

02-15-2012, 04:16 PM

good call... that Lemon comment wasn't necessary

Yeah now he's getting annoying with players getting traded for Rick Nash. How is that funny?

Will

02-15-2012, 05:40 PM

Looks like Pottinger re-signed per TSN.

R.J

02-15-2012, 06:25 PM

Bombers now rumoured to be interested in Tim O'Neill, effect of Picard signing in Riderville ?

Some new tweets in.
Farhan Lalji @FarhanLaljiTSN
The #BCLions have a legitimate interest in Byron Parker. Willie Pile, Rod Davis & Kevin Eiben are not happening

Darian Durant @dariandurant
Just talked with LaBatte for a few...he def wants to be a Rider! Get er done BT!!!

Some free agency tsn.ca videos
Lions shoring up Roster (http://watch.tsn.ca/cfl-news-and-highlights/#clip620176)
Tillman discusses Esks signings and Fantuz "sweepstakes" (http://watch.tsn.ca/cfl-news-and-highlights/#clip620179)

Even IMO Lefko is not the most reliable, thought this info would be worthy to post.
Perry Lefko @PerryLefko
#Argo LB #KevinEiben to meet with #Ticats today to discuss a contract. Expect a deal and an announcement.

paulwoods13

02-17-2012, 08:24 AM

Even IMO Lefko is not the most reliable, thought this info would be worthy to post.

If Eiben signs wth Hamilton, he will be returning to a backup and special teams role, IMO, unless the Ticats are planning to switch to a 3-4 defence. They are not going to sit or cut any of their three import starters (Rey Williams, Markeith Knowlton and Jamal Johnson). Eiben would essentially be replacing Ray Mariuz, who came out of retirement late last season to play special teams for the Cats. It would be interesting to know how much the Cats are willing to pay for a backup LB. if the dollars are similar (assuming Toronto has made him some type of offer), he'd be better off staying in Toronto where there are no truly proven LBs other than Pottinger. Kuale and Cannon have great potential but haven't yet developed consistency, Pile is probably gone and Younger is going to move to safety. Given all that, a healthy Eiben would still have a shot at playing time on defence in Toronto, much moreso than Hamilton, I'd say.

Skinny G

02-17-2012, 10:08 AM

If Eiben signs wth Hamilton, he will be returning to a backup and special teams role, IMO, unless the Ticats are planning to switch to a 3-4 defence. They are not going to sit or cut any of their three import starters (Rey Williams, Markeith Knowlton and Jamal Johnson). Eiben would essentially be replacing Ray Mariuz, who came out of retirement late last season to play special teams for the Cats. It would be interesting to know how much the Cats are willing to pay for a backup LB. if the dollars are similar (assuming Toronto has made him some type of offer), he'd be better off staying in Toronto where there are no truly proven LBs other than Pottinger. Kuale and Cannon have great potential but haven't yet developed consistency, Pile is probably gone and Younger is going to move to safety. Given all that, a healthy Eiben would still have a shot at playing time on defence in Toronto, much moreso than Hamilton, I'd say.

I agree about this. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, did Chris Jones not employ a 3-4 defense at some point in Calgary? I thought they had that for a little while there?

Also, from our available free agents... do you think any of them end up back here after what has transpired over the last couple of days?

Buzbee? Ishola? Pile? Murphy? Robertson?

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