Past Argo picks that never arrived (moved from 'Non-CFL Argos update')

[paulwoods13]

I hope you're right on that Ravi; however - Nick Kaczur, Dan Federkeil or Clifton Dawson did not show-up for the Argos after some time in the NFL. Maybe depends on if the guy still has the desire to play football, needs some more football coin or has respect for the CFL (or conversely if the CFL team has good respect for them).
. . .
Another drafted player related question - did Feoli-Gudino even dress in that last game where all sorts of new import players got playing time for the Argos in a game that would allow looking at new guys? - and if not, why not?

Kaczur was an NFL starter for a few years on a high-spending team -- there is no way he would have played for CFL-type money. Federkeil, by many accounts, suffered serious injuries (believe it was concussion-related) and was forced to retire. Dawson is a mystery but as a Harvard grad he likely had more lucrative options than playing in the CFL.

JFG did get a number of snaps on offence last week. No passes thrown in his direction, however.

[doubleblue]

Yes, for special teams and I think a few offensive plays.

I don't remember JFG on for more than the ST plays, maybe he was. I was watching him in the warm up and he catches the ball well and has quick acceleration. But they do seem to be bringing him along very slowly. They did the same with Joe Eppele.
Then an undrafted kid like Lee comes to camp and plays alot in his first year. It seems to be all about making the adjustment to the higher level. Some progress quicker than others.

[1argoholic]

I didn't even see JFG. Sometimes the old square box isn't great. We'll upgrade after we move.

[OV Argo]

Kaczur was an NFL starter for a few years on a high-spending team -- there is no way he would have played for CFL-type money. Federkeil, by many accounts, suffered serious injuries (believe it was concussion-related) and was forced to retire. Dawson is a mystery but as a Harvard grad he likely had more lucrative options than playing in the CFL.

JFG did get a number of snaps on offence last week. No passes thrown in his direction, however.


We've gone over this before, but; Mike Schad - an offensive lineman too who also played a number of seasons in the NFL including starting - DID come to the CFL after; maybe he had great respect for the CFL; doubt he needed more money, but maybe; maybe he was strongly courted by Ottawa and also proud to play there? - i don't know; just like i don't know for sure about the deal with Kaczur, but maybe you do; i would hope the team had strongly looked in to the opportunity of landing both Kaczur and Dawson (but if Federkeil just couldn't show because of health problems - nothing they could do about that).

And if Greenwood does become available, i would hope somebody in the Argos personnel department is giving him a call immediately with a - we'd love to sign you and give you a shot to start at MLB for us, and here's a decent CFL signing bonus and contract - type offer; rather than a luke-warm - maybe you can make our team and play sepcial-teams at CFL minimum wage type interest; that i suspect is shown to a lot of CFL draft picks.

[OV Argo]

I don't remember JFG on for more than the ST plays, maybe he was. I was watching him in the warm up and he catches the ball well and has quick acceleration. But they do seem to be bringing him along very slowly. They did the same with Joe Eppele.
Then an undrafted kid like Lee comes to camp and plays alot in his first year. It seems to be all about making the adjustment to the higher level. Some progress quicker than others.


Could well be that different guys adjust/adapt to the pros at different rates; coud also be about attitudes of the coaching staff; i guess Payton, Riggs and a whole whack of other new players i saw getting lots of playing time for the Argos that last game have "progressed" quickly. Lee is interesting - been quite impressive IMO, but really hasn't played that much - at least not even close to "starting" - i.e. play in and play out for most of a game; we'll see if he ever evolves to that level.

[doubleblue]

Could well be that different guys adjust/adapt to the pros at different rates; coud also be about attitudes of the coaching staff; i guess Payton, Riggs and a whole whack of other new players i saw getting lots of playing time for the Argos that last game have "progressed" quickly. Lee is interesting - been quite impressive IMO, but really hasn't played that much - at least not even close to "starting" - i.e. play in and play out for most of a game; we'll see if he ever evolves to that level.

I thought we were talking Canadian rookies here. Most of the imports have either played in the NFL or been to several camps down there or been on PR's before coming up here. They weed out the ones who aren't quite ready for prime time in these off season camps teams run now.
Can't do that with the Canadian talent, it is too scarce, you have to develop some of them.

[gilthethrill]

I work with a guy who is friends with Kazur. Nick has back trouble and is well well under his playing weight. His football career is over.

[paulwoods13]

We've gone over this before, but; Mike Schad - an offensive lineman too who also played a number of seasons in the NFL including starting - DID come to the CFL after; maybe he had great respect for the CFL; doubt he needed more money, but maybe; maybe he was strongly courted by Ottawa and also proud to play there? - i don't know;

Apples to oranges, IMO, because when Schad played in the NFL, the salary gap between the two leagues was much lower than it is now. Kaczur's final NFL salary was $3.4M. He would not have made more than $200k if he had come to the CFL -- about one-seventeenth of what he had been making. I can't find any info on Schad's NFL salary but I would guess the ratio between his deal in Ottawa and his last NFL deal was no worse than one-quarter and possibly around one-half.

[paulwoods13]

I just found a reputable source (Seattle Times) showing Schad's 1990 NFL salary at $250,000. I would bet when he came to the CFL four years later he was making close to that amount.

And you are right, OV, we have hashed this out (both taking the same positions) previously, so everyone else can yawn and move on.

[ArgoRavi]

I work with a guy who is friends with Kazur. Nick has back trouble and is well well under his playing weight. His football career is over.

He had an issue with painkillers a few years ago, didn't he? Anyway, I am not surprised to hear that his football career is over.

[argolio]

Yeah, I could definitely see someone having a lot less incentive to come to the CFL after making $3.4 million vs $250K.

[OV Argo]

I just found a reputable source (Seattle Times) showing Schad's 1990 NFL salary at $250,000. I would bet when he came to the CFL four years later he was making close to that amount.




And you are right, OV, we have hashed this out (both taking the same positions) previously, so everyone else can yawn and move on.


Schad had been an NFL starter (and named a Sporting News NFL all-star) after his 1990 season; i would bet he got a substantial raise after his 1990 salary level, plus probably got a pretty decent signing bonus as a 1st rounder with the Rams; but, whatever.

[OV Argo]

I thought we were talking Canadian rookies here. Most of the imports have either played in the NFL or been to several camps down there or been on PR's before coming up here. They weed out the ones who aren't quite ready for prime time in these off season camps teams run now.
Can't do that with the Canadian talent, it is too scarce, you have to develop some of them.


Really? - Coughman got handed a starting OT job with the Argos last year with zero previous pro experience that i know of; Marcus Ball was a good find this year, but zero previous pro experience and didn't play football from 08-10; Paige-Moss ? - what is his pro experience? Payton - played in the Serbian (???) pro league before but was starting for the Argos last game; Riggs has a little bit of NFL camp experience but didn't play there and didn't play any football in 10-11 - the Argos don't even have another Canadian RB on the roster aside from vet JJ who is viewed as a back-up or fullback. And all of the above mentioned guys had ZERO Canadian football experience before getting lots of playing time in game(s) with the Argos this year.

Feoli-Gudino was a multi year, all-star calibre starter on a top notch CIS program (i.e. signifigant Canadian football experience).

[argolio]

Schad had been an NFL starter (and named a Sporting News NFL all-star) after his 1990 season; i would bet he got a substantial raise after his 1990 salary level, plus probably got a pretty decent signing bonus as a 1st rounder with the Rams; but, whatever.According to a story in the L.A. Times, the players drafted close to Schad in 1986 signed for $1.2-$1.3 million over four years including bonuses, and, for what it's worth, the Rams were offering $900K as training camp opened.

Hard to know whether Shad received a substantial raise in 1991 since salary info before the cap-era is spotty. He also missed the '91 season, and it's entirely possible he was already signed for that year. But as a player who only appeared in 62 games in a 7-year NFL career, I doubt he ever came close to doubling his salary from one year to the next.

Also couldn't find Schad's name on any 1990 all-pro teams.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_All-Pro_Team
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1990/allpro.htm

[OV Argo]

According to a story in the L.A. Times, the players drafted close to Schad in 1986 signed for $1.2-$1.3 million over four years including bonuses, and, for what it's worth, the Rams were offering $900K as training camp opened.

Hard to know whether Shad received a substantial raise in 1991 since salary info before the cap-era is spotty. He also missed the '91 season, and it's entirely possible he was already signed for that year. But as a player who only appeared in 62 games in a 7-year NFL career, I doubt he ever came close to doubling his salary from one year to the next.

Also couldn't find Schad's name on any 1990 all-pro teams.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_All-Pro_Team
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1990/allpro.htm


I didn't say NFL sanctioned Pro-Bowl appearance; he was however (i'm fairly certain) named to a Sporting News (independent of the NFL sports publication) all-star team as a starter for the Eagles; and i have no idea what his salary was a starter for the Eagles his last couple of seasons before he was done there (due to injury problems?).

My point would still be - i highly doubt he was broke $ and needed CFL coin when he decided to play for the Ottawa Rough Riders; and maybe could be he was glad/proud to play in the CFL and that Ottawa really wanted/welcomed and went after him to sign him. I was at his first CFL game in Ottawa vs. BC - he was quite impressive IMO; he got injured - next season's CFL TC after that i believe - and was done - shame, but the Rough Riders were to fold soon after anyways.

[argolio]

Those include The Sporting News (TSN) selections.

[paulwoods13]

My point would still be - i highly doubt he was broke $ and needed CFL coin when he decided to play for the Ottawa Rough Riders; and maybe could be he was glad/proud to play in the CFL and that Ottawa really wanted/welcomed and went after him to sign him. I was at his first CFL game in Ottawa vs. BC - he was quite impressive IMO; he got injured - next season's CFL TC after that i believe - and was done - shame, but the Rough Riders were to fold soon after anyways.

But whether or not Schad "needed coin" back then, there seems little doubt that Kaczur, even if healthy, would have signed up here for one-seventeenth (or less) of his NFL salary. There is no way Schad took that big of a cut.

[OV Argo]

But whether or not Schad "needed coin" back then, there seems little doubt that Kaczur, even if healthy, would have signed up here for one-seventeenth (or less) of his NFL salary. There is no way Schad took that big of a cut.


You know this for a fact do you?

And if Kaczur was healthy after finishing in the NFL, AND he still loved football / had a desire to play, and had respect for the CFL and was strongly courted by an Argo team that really wanted him, he MIGHT have ended up playing for the Argos, regardless of wether he was already rich or needed money. Some guys can play for the love of the game/sport or to play in the big league in their country/hometown area. IF the CFL was just about making money, a lot of players might not be there - that's been said about the league many times - some guys playing for the love of the game ... along with making pretty decent coin.

[paulwoods13]

You know this for a fact do you?

And if Kaczur was healthy after finishing in the NFL, AND he still loved football / had a desire to play, and had respect for the CFL and was strongly courted by an Argo team that really wanted him, he MIGHT have ended up playing for the Argos, regardless of wether he was already rich or needed money. Some guys can play for the love of the game/sport or to play in the big league in their country/hometown area. IF the CFL was just about making money, a lot of players might not be there - that's been said about the league many times - some guys playing for the love of the game ... along with making pretty decent coin.

No, I don't know it for a fact. But I believe it, and I imagine most reasonable people would believe it as well. I do know for a fact that K's last NFL contract was $3.4M. And while I have no "facts" to support this, I strongly believe that no o-lineman in this league would make more than $200k. Murphy apparently was rhe highest-paid at $180k, and the good QBs are making around $400k. Hence my one-17th assumption. As for Schad, I have no facts for anything other than what he earned in 1990, but I would be willing to bet that whatever pay reduction he took to come to Ottawa, it was not even close to one-17th.

I also have no facts for my belief that no one who made multiple millions of dollars in the NFL, as K did, would come to the CFL to play for the love of the game. If and when someone in that category gets here and signs for low six figures(or high five figures), I'll probably change my mind.

[stuntdog]

I was at his first CFL game in Ottawa vs. BC - he was quite impressive IMO; he got injured - next season's CFL TC after that i believe - and was done - shame, but the Rough Riders were to fold soon after anyways.

I remember the disappointment in Ottawa when Schad suffered his career-ending arm injury in the '96 training camp. Was really a shame because he was in his early 30s at the time and the Riders had waited years to get him after drafting him in the mid '80s.

[OV Argo]

No, I don't know it for a fact. But I believe it, and I imagine most reasonable people would believe it as well. I do know for a fact that K's last NFL contract was $3.4M. And while I have no "facts" to support this, I strongly believe that no o-lineman in this league would make more than $200k. Murphy apparently was rhe highest-paid at $180k, and the good QBs are making around $400k. Hence my one-17th assumption. As for Schad, I have no facts for anything other than what he earned in 1990, but I would be willing to bet that whatever pay reduction he took to come to Ottawa, it was not even close to one-17th.

I also have no facts for my belief that no one who made multiple millions of dollars in the NFL, as K did, would come to the CFL to play for the love of the game. If and when someone in that category gets here and signs for low six figures(or high five figures), I'll probably change my mind.


Tommy Kane - played a number of seasons in the NFL - and while maybe didn't make multi-millions, I would guess he made some pretty decent coin to bank; came to the CFL after and played for the Argos who had drafted him years before - for what salary i don't know (and did i read here somewhere before - Ravi maybe?- that Kane donated his Argo salary to charity?) Apparently, Kane did not have you as an advisior to tell him he was insane to play in the CFL as "no one" - no well heeled, rich big-shot should ever stoop to that level or want to play football for love or the game nor be proud to play in the big pro league in their own country.

[paulwoods13]

Tommy Kane - played a number of seasons in the NFL - and while maybe didn't make multi-millions, I would guess he made some pretty decent coin to bank; came to the CFL after and played for the Argos who had drafted him years before - for what salary i don't know (and did i read here somewhere before - Ravi maybe?- that Kane donated his Argo salary to charity?) Apparently, Kane did not have you as an advisior to tell him he was insane to play in the CFL as "no one" - no well heeled, rich big-shot should ever stoop to that level or want to play football for love or the game nor be proud to play in the big pro league in their own country.

I doubt he ever made seven figures, given that he averaged less than 30 receptions a season. The average NFL salary his last year there, 1992, was just under $500,000. He would probably have been somewhere around the average, I would imagine. No doubt "good coin." Still, that was two decades ago. Schad was nearly that long ago as well. Can you come up with a more recent example of a multimillionaire NFLer playing for CFL money (other than Ricky Williams, who had no other option)?

[paulwoods13]

Apparently, Kane did not have you as an advisior to tell him he was insane to play in the CFL as "no one" - no well heeled, rich big-shot should ever stoop to that level or want to play football for love or the game nor be proud to play in the big pro league in their own country.

Those are your words, not mine. I'm happy to (re) debate this (or any other subject) with you, OV, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't attribute beliefs or attitudes to me if I haven't directly espoused them.

[ArgoGabe22]

Can you come up with a more recent example of a multimillionaire NFLer playing for CFL money (other than Ricky Williams, who had no other option)?

Sorry to jump in but Andre Rison once once made 2.8 million in a season and made over 20 million in his career (with endorsments) and was first signed on the PR if I remember correctly. But we must also factor in that we went bankrupt (might be after 2004?) and owed over 100k in child support at the time of the signing.

[OV Argo]

Those are your words, not mine. I'm happy to (re) debate this (or any other subject) with you, OV, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't attribute beliefs or attitudes to me if I haven't directly espoused them.


OK Paul - but you and some others don't seem to like my CFL "good ole boy" references here, and i seem to recall you taking the liberty to throw it at me it in a reply to one of my posts without me referencing it in that post you were responding too - putting words in others' mouths is easy on this internet discussin' forum, no?

Anywho - our discussion is off on a goofy tangent here IMO - we've gone over this before; too bad Kaczur never showed up for the Argos - for whatever reason(s); and it was nice to see a great talent like Mike Schad play for even a bit in the CFL; i hope Argo and CFL fans might get to see Greenwood or Tyler Holmes down the road too.

Cheers! - Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrgooos - Pull Together !

[1argoholic]

I remember a Friends Of The Argonauts bus trip to Ottawa and after the game the bus took us all to a restaurant/bar called Shadalacs or something like that. It was owned by Shad and former Argo Andrew Murray. They fed us free eats including chicken drums done like wings. KILLER!!!!

Just saw part of one of those ESPN specials on TSN last week about players making huge coin and tossing it around like it was pocket change. Rison was one of the guys talking about his excessive blowing of coin. 20 grand nights at bars. Guess he's not laughing now.

I still remember JP Darche heading to Seattle after winning the Grey Cup with us in 96. He was long snapping only and making 250 thou a year at one point. Not bad.

[paulwoods13]

Sorry to jump in but Andre Rison once once made 2.8 million in a season and made over 20 million in his career (with endorsments) and was first signed on the PR if I remember correctly. But we must also factor in that we went bankrupt (might be after 2004?) and owed over 100k in child support at the time of the signing.

Yes, that and he saw the Argos as a ticket back to the NFL. How wrong he was.

[ArgoRavi]

Sorry to jump in but Andre Rison once once made 2.8 million in a season and made over 20 million in his career (with endorsments) and was first signed on the PR if I remember correctly. But we must also factor in that we went bankrupt (might be after 2004?) and owed over 100k in child support at the time of the signing.

Speaking of Rison, did anyone see the recent 30 for 30 doc in which he was featured as much as anyone? The doc was about the high number of pro athletes (especially NFL players) who go bankrupt and, of course, Rison was front and centre. He went back to university and just graduated this year to his credit though.

The only way that I could see someone like Kaczur playing in the CFL is if he needed the money as badly as Rison did. Yes, he could decide to play for the love of the game but, after taking the beating that he did in the NFL, I doubt that that is enough to continue playing.

[argolio]

Sorry to jump in but Andre Rison once once made 2.8 million in a season and made over 20 million in his career (with endorsments) and was first signed on the PR if I remember correctly. But we must also factor in that we went bankrupt (might be after 2004?) and owed over 100k in child support at the time of the signing.Before coming to the CFL, R.J. Soward must have made some good coin for a year or two before getting suspended by the NFL for alcohol abuse numerous times.

Though some might argue the Argos would have been better off if Soward never came here.

[ArgoGabe22]

Before coming to the CFL, R.J. Soward must have made some good coin for a year or two before getting suspended by the NFL for alcohol abuse numerous times.

Jaguars signed him for $5.5 million/5 years.

[paulwoods13]

OK Paul - but you and some others don't seem to like my CFL "good ole boy" references here, and i seem to recall you taking the liberty to throw it at me it in a reply to one of my posts without me referencing it in that post you were responding too - putting words in others' mouths is easy on this internet discussin' forum, no?

Anywho - our discussion is off on a goofy tangent here IMO - we've gone over this before; too bad Kaczur never showed up for the Argos - for whatever reason(s); and it was nice to see a great talent like Mike Schad play for even a bit in the CFL; i hope Argo and CFL fans might get to see Greenwood or Tyler Holmes down the road too.

Cheers! - Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrgooos - Pull Together !

Agreed on all points. Let's get a win Sunday, then the next two Sundays, then (hopefully) get Greenwood here next season.

[paulwoods13]

Before coming to the CFL, R.J. Soward must have made some good coin for a year or two before getting suspended by the NFL for alcohol abuse numerous times.

Though some might argue the Argos would have been better off if Soward never came here.

I would probably be one of them. Whatever good he did for is in 2004 was overshadowed by the popcorn incident, which IMO created years of bad karma.