Argonauts interested in adding krumrie to coaching staff

[Will]

http://tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=386036

...and yes they mentioned the broken leg in the Super Bowl.

[argolio]

and yes they mentioned the broken leg in the Super Bowl.Joe Theisman's injury might be the only worse one that I've seen.

[Will]

Have you ever seen video of Napoleon McCallum's injury?

[argolio]

Have you ever seen video of Napoleon McCallum's injury?Yep. Another really bad one that comes to mind is U. of Manitoba running back Matt Henry in the Vanier Cup.

I better stop, this thread is getting morbid.

[ArgoRavi]

Gerry Ifill's injury at SkyDome in 1990 wasn't pretty either. That happened toward the end of the 70-18 win over Calgary and the injury ended Ifill's career.

[Area 51]

Anything would be an improvement on what they've had coaching the DLine, but Krumrie's a bit of a wild man.

If Toronto does end up hiring him they'd better bring two new DTs in with him, because I guarantee Huntley and Wroten would not make it through training camp with him as their position coach.

[AngeloV]

Anything would be an improvement on what they've had coaching the DLine, but Krumrie's a bit of a wild man.

If Toronto does end up hiring him they'd better bring two new DTs in with him, because I guarantee Huntley and Wroten would not make it through training camp with him as their position coach.

Really? So what you are saying is that you beyond the shadow of a doubt know that their work ethic sucks? This coming from a guy that thinks BJ Hall showed enough last season to earn an invite back. I don't think Huntley was all that bad last year. Maybe you expected him to have 30 sacks or something, but I still believe he is a premier DT in this league.

[Area 51]

Really? So what you are saying is that you beyond the shadow of a doubt know that their work ethic sucks? This coming from a guy that thinks BJ Hall showed enough last season to earn an invite back. I don't think Huntley was all that bad last year. Maybe you expected him to have 30 sacks or something, but I still believe he is a premier DT in this league.




Yep, really. It's more than just work ethic.

Wroten's a guy that smoked himself out of LSU, then smoked himself out of the NFL. What does that tell you about his committment level? How many games has Huntley sat out over the past few years because of various aches and pains?

Not sure if you ever watched Krumrie play or if you ever saw the Hard Knocks series on the Chiefs from a few years ago, but he's a pretty demanding guy. If the Argos want to get rid of the country club atmosphere, bringing him in would definitely be a culture change. But turning up the intensity and demanding accountability is going to mean that some guys won't make it.

As for BJ Hall, I thought he was the 3rd string QB they brought in for short yardage last year. What part of that role did he consistently fail at executing? Did he always get stuffed on short yardage? Was he holding the clipboard incorrectly? You won't find a better running QB, he's got a big arm, and he got the job done on 3rd down. Maybe he develops into something more, maybe he never does. But in terms of filling his role, last year he got the job done.

[Area 51]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rlbt0EAWZxc

[gilthethrill]

Area 51, you continually go on about a "Country Club Atmosphere"..please expand on this.

[Will]

Area 51, you continually go on about a "Country Club Atmosphere"..please expand on this.

Area 51 isn't the first person to use the term "country club atmosphere." It was a term that was applied to the so-called "Muskoka 5" of the Toronto Maple Leafs back 3-5 years ago, which consisted of Mats Sundin, Darcy Tucker, Tomas Kaberle, Bryan McCabe and I believe Pavel Kubina. As you might imagine the label isn't meant to be flattering. If I had to simmer it down to a few different definitions, these are the ones I'd apply:

[1] The belief that the players on a team are held to little or no accountability by their coaches, particularly veteran players. I actually think the better description here might be that veteran players are held to a different or lesser standard than rookies.

[2] Practices and preparation for games are in a relaxed atmosphere, that is to say, that the coaches aren't Bill Parcells or Jimmy Johnson.

Also, for the definition to be applied the team in question must have had a poor to medicore season.

I just want to disclaim that by answering your question gilthethrill that I'm not attempting to label the 2011 Argos as a "country club," merely providing my interpretation of the term to help answer your question.

[gilthethrill]

Thanks argofan87, no worries. I am just curious where Area 51 has come up with his opinion. Does he attend practises on a regular basis? The film sessions? JY26, do you agree with Area 51???

[Will]

As an addition, the theory of a "country club" doesn't become a problem if the team is winning just like the theory of a "boot camp" coach doesn't become a problem if the team is winning.

[Area 51]

Area 51, you continually go on about a "Country Club Atmosphere"..please expand on this.



It's way to describe an organization that has no accountability and no committment to winning - - just have everybody show up once a week to "do their best" and then cash those game cheques.

There were times last year when Brandon Rideau quit on his routes - - just pulled up, stopped running and gave up on the play resulting in easy INTs. I posted video showing this. Did Rideau get cut, or at least benched, for his non-effort? Nope. Just keep rolling him out there as a starter. Where was the accountability?

My seats are behind the Argo bench and I have a decent view of the the sideline area. I'm ready to put my fist through a wall after sitting through yet another pathetic performance and I see guys laughing and joking on the sideline. How do you explain that? Is it funny to get your ass handed to you? Or did they decide it's better to laugh than cry?

The team's 2-6 heading into a bye week. Does the coach/GM take that time to break down film to figure out what's going wrong and get some changes implemented? Nope. He takes off to watch some theatre for the week. It's one thing for the players to spend the bye week relaxing, but I've never heard of a coach/GM going on a mid season vacation. Especially when the team is in the dumpster about to have the season go down the drain. Is that common practice throughout the CFL & NFL?

The offence was terrible in 2010 and a complete disaster in 2011 but did they change any of the assistants or the coordinator? The passing game was absolutely useless, the running game was the only bright spot, but did they change the offence to a ground based attack? Nope. Same garbage scheme, same garbage coaches.

Then you have players coming on message boards saying nothing needs to change, bring back all the same players and keep running the same schemes and eventually they'll figure it out. Sure. Why change a good thing? Accountability might mean that a few people lose their jobs, and that would mean no more game cheques.

Pure speculation and conjecture on my part? Maybe I'm the only one on this message board who felt like it was a country club in Argoland. But when reporters who are much closer to the team than you or I start raising the same concerns about the team atmosphere, there might be something to it.

[Will]

Okay, you're saying the "country club" atmosphere doesn't work. But, neither did Bart Andrus' philosophy. I think after the disaster that was the 2009 season that Barker's mentality was probably the right thing for this team...for the 2010 season. In retrospect, whatever mentality that was it didn't carry over into 2011 season. The locker room culture could be just as bad if it is a "boot camp" mentality like it was reported to have been under Adnrus. So basically what you're hoping for is that Milanovich can balance the two effectively?

You listed your evidence for the "country club," but I'd say that i) the Argos have addressed several of the areas that you railed about and ii) there is still a significant portion of the off-season to exact change.

[gilthethrill]

Area 51, you mentioned no accountability. You mentioned Brandon Rideau quitting on his routes. Where is he now? Cut. That is not accountability? Chip Garber? Fired during the season. That is not accountability?

It is not always easy to replace co-ordinators at mid season. Unless you promote from within, like in Steinaurs case, all the qualified coaches are already employed. Barker, in addition to his HC & GM roles did assist the now departed Elinzondo with the offense, although with not much success.

I just don't think "airlifts" work during the season A51.

[Area 51]

Area 51, you mentioned no accountability. You mentioned Brandon Rideau quitting on his routes. Where is he now? Cut. That is not accountability? Chip Garber? Fired during the season. That is not accountability?

It is not always easy to replace co-ordinators at mid season. Unless you promote from within, like in Steinaurs case, all the qualified coaches are already employed. Barker, in addition to his HC & GM roles did assist the now departed Elinzondo with the offense, although with not much success.



Why did it take so long to address the Rideau situation? It's not as if they would have missed his productivity. Bolden, Tranks and Bradwell were all sitting around rotting on the bench/PR while this dog was trotting out to his starting role every week.

The Tennis Player was clearly way out of his league as an OC in 2010 - - why bring him back for another go-round in 2011? Fire him the day the season ends and bring in a new "qualified" OC to revamp the offensive scheme in the off season. Ok, so they did. But why not change up the play calling? Tell the Tennis Player he only has three plays to choose from - - run left, run right or run up the middle.

I notice you didn't mention anything about Barker taking a vacation in the middle of the season. If that's not the opposite of accountability, I don't know what is. And when the coach/GM is mor einterested in more interested in watching theatre than fixing his team, I don't know what else to call it other than a country club.

[1argoholic]

Ravi I'll never gorget that Ifell injury and I remember them showing a closeup on the jumbotron. That was it for him after that.

[Area 51]

The locker room culture could be just as bad if it is a "boot camp" mentality like it was reported to have been under Adnrus. So basically what you're hoping for is that Milanovich can balance the two effectively?



Ding, ding, ding! Yes! Finally someone who can comprehend what I'm saying.

Andrus had no clue what he was doing in the CFL and he tried to be an iron fisted dictator. That's the worst possible combination for a leader. If you're going to run a "boot camp" you'd better know your sh!t inside and out.

If you don't know what you're doing, then you can get away with it for a while by being a player-friendly coach and letting the team have a wide lattitude. The players will respond in the short term, especially if they're just coming off an idiot like Andrus, but things will soon degenerate into a country club.

You can be a player-friendly coach and still run a tight ship. The best example I can think of is Jimmy Johnson. Look at the personalities he had at the U. A coach like Andrus would have been eaten alive in his first month there. And with a soft coach the team would have been completely out of control. As it was, they were the most bad-assed team in NCAA history, but Johnson was clearly in control and had the respect of his team. They would go through a wall for him. I can't think of a college or pro team that played with more emotion that Johnson's Hurricane teams. Also can't think of any that have been more intimidating.

Milanovich doesn't need to be the second coming of Genghis Khan. He doesn't need to yell and scream all the time. But he needs to hold the players accountable - - you quit on a route and you're gone. Can't manage to make a tackle? Sit down on the bench. And most importantly he needs to lead by example. If the coach isn't putting in the work, why would the players? So that means no vacations during the season, it means having air-tight schemes in place that actually work, and it also means being able to implement adjustments in-game and throughout the season.

I'm excited about 2012 for the Argos. I think Milanovich was a good choice and especially bringing in a DC who has a clue about running a defence. Milanovich doesn't strike me an an in-you-face screamer, and neither does Jones, but there's no doubt that Krumrie would fit that description.

[gilthethrill]

Why did it take so long to address the Rideau situation? It's not as if they would have missed his productivity. Bolden, Tranks and Bradwell were all sitting around rotting on the bench/PR while this dog was trotting out to his starting role every week.

The Tennis Player was clearly way out of his league as an OC in 2010 - - why bring him back for another go-round in 2011? Fire him the day the season ends and bring in a new "qualified" OC to revamp the offensive scheme in the off season. Ok, so they did. But why not change up the play calling? Tell the Tennis Player he only has three plays to choose from - - run left, run right or run up the middle.

I notice you didn't mention anything about Barker taking a vacation in the middle of the season. If that's not the opposite of accountability, I don't know what is. And when the coach/GM is mor einterested in more interested in watching theatre than fixing his team, I don't know what else to call it other than a country club.

I notice you did not mention anything about Garber being dismissed during the season either. As for Barker going away to NY for a few days, yes, that did catch me off guard & to my knowledge other CFL coaches don't go away during bye weeks, but I could be mistaken.

As for Rideau, my take on that is purely evaluation, not "Country Club"...I can only assume the staff felt he was better than Bolden or Tranks..not that I agree with that, but that is the only explaination I can give.

I also have posted in the past that Barker brought back his 2010 coaching staff back intact was an attempt to gain continuity, something the team has lacked recently. The lingering injury to Jyles shoulder may have held the offence back even more...again Area 51, these are just simply my take, I could be totally wrong.

[JY26]

@Area51-I can't tell you how you should go about criticizing another human being but calling MEN you have never had any real dealings with dogs is SO disrespectful. I could sit here and tell you that on some of those routes that you saw Brandon Rideau "quit on" were not a matter of effort but lack of understanding. I could sit here and tell you that receivers are taught that when running into deep zone coverage or soft man-to-man coverage that they should stop and sit down "in the hole" so the quarterback could deliberately throw behind him. I could tell you that he learned this from watching future hall of fame receiver Jermaine Copeland (had a knack for knowing when to break his route off and sit down in a zone presenting himself to the QB)
I could tell you that on ONE of those plays where the commentators jumped on Rideau for dogging it was actually the QBs fault for not reading the deep zone coverage correctly. (ironically he didn't get that tag of being lazy until after the commentator incorrectly called him out.) Or I could tell you that this was his first time playing in a "read style" offence and against CFL defences and he just didn't get it on a consistent enough basis. For me any one of those reasons is enough not to call another man a dog.
It sucks to be fans of a losing team. I am human and I completely understand that. I grew up as an Eagles fan. I watched them struggle some years and i screamed at the television and said a lot of the things you say here but the difference is i was telling it to a TV. I believe it is your God given right to be however you choose to be but I am asking you to please be considerate. I am sure you have friends and you wouldn't want someone to talk about your friends so disrespectfully without knowing the whole story.

Also George Dyer was the Defensive Line Coach in 2010-2011. The man has been coaching for 47 years. Without me defending him his resume should speak for itself. I have played football professionally for 12 years and 8 of those in Canada. He is one of the best football minds i have ever been around. He is one of the best men i have ever been around and i have played for my fair share of pricks during my career. He happens to be one of the best coaches i have ever played for and that includes Pinball and Stubler and Austin and O'Shea and if they ever let Steinauer hand pick his defence he will be a special coach as well. The decision making power of a position coach is limited. The politics of professional football is different than any other level or sport. Very rarely do X's and O's make champions.


These are the places that he has coached
2010:
Defensive Line Coach, Toronto Argonauts


2003
Defensive Line Coach, Detroit Lions (NFL)


2002
: Assistant to the Head Coach, Denver Broncos (NFL)


1995-01
: Defensive Line Coach, Denver Broncos (NFL)


1992-94
: Defensive Coordinator/Defensive Line Coach, Los Angeles Rams (NFL)


1983-91
Defensive Line Coach, Seattle Seahawks (NFL)


1982
: Defensive Line Coach, Buffalo Bills (NFL)


1980-81
Defensive Coordinator, Arizona State (NCAA)


1977-79
: Defensive Coordinator, Michigan State (NCAA)


1974-76
:Assistant Coach, Winnipeg Blue Bombers


1973
: Assistant Coach, San Jose State (NCAA)


1972
: Assistant Coach, Idaho University (NCAA)


1968-71
Defensive Coordinator, Portland State (NCAA)


1967
: Head Coach, Coalinga Junior College (NCAA)22


1964-66:
Assistant Coach, Humboldt State (NCAA)

[ArgoRavi]

When I was poking around Google's archives one day, I found out that Dyer was actually considered by the Eskimos to be their new head coach when Hugh Campbell left for the USFL after the '82 season. Things may have worked out better for the Esks if they had gone with Dyer instead of Pete Kettela. As you mention, Jordan, Dyer has been a respected coach for decades. I am not sure how any of the other points that you have raised here can be argued against given your inside knowledge that none of the rest of us have. I actually feel bad for Rideau after reading the "true story" as I too felt very frustrated with him. I guess that we should really take what the likes of Duane Forde and Glen Suitor say with a grain of salt sometimes as they don't have the full story either.

[JY26]

I don't present points to argue with you guys. Ultimately you are going to feel however you are going to feel and i truly respect that. There are going to be varying viewpoints on everything if you ask enough people. What i am trying to do is give you guys another perspective to look at that might effect the way you feel about a particular subject. In Rideau's case i can understand why some would criticize him the way that they do. But he had a good attitude and he was a team guy. Even though he was a starter he would still run scout team routes trying to improve at what he was doing. He would come in early and leave late. And to give you one more human perspective i am sure you guys can at least empathize with and that is you wouldn't BELIEVE how many times Rideau beat the man covering him but the QB missed him for whatever reason. I played offence in college and i know what its like to be killing the man in front of you but not see the ball. Its SUPER frustrating and it takes a real concerted effort to run every route hard when you know the QB isn't coming your way. As a matter of fact you can look at every single starting receiver in the league and they all take plays off. It's impossible to run 60 pass routes a game at full speed with 20 seconds rest between each play so they choose plays where they pace themselves. I just feel its pretty harsh to call a man a dog for doing what every receiver does.

[JY26]

And there are so many times that the commentator DONT HAVE A CLUE....it makes me so mad sometimes how they throw blame around without knowing what a player has been coached to do

[ArgoRavi]

In Rideau's case i can understand why some would criticize him the way that they do. But he had a good attitude and he was a team guy. Even though he was a starter he would still run scout team routes trying to improve at what he was doing. He would come in early and leave late. And to give you one more human perspective i am sure you guys can at least empathize with and that is you wouldn't BELIEVE how many times Rideau beat the man covering him but the QB missed him for whatever reason. I played offence in college and i know what its like to be killing the man in front of you but not see the ball. Its SUPER frustrating and it takes a real concerted effort to run every route hard when you know the QB isn't coming your way. As a matter of fact you can look at every single starting receiver in the league and they all take plays off. It's impossible to run 60 pass routes a game at full speed with 20 seconds rest between each play so they choose plays where they pace themselves. I just feel its pretty harsh to call a man a dog for doing what every receiver does.

It might have been interesting to see what Rideau could have become with Ricky Ray throwing to him. I hope that we didn't give up on him too soon.

[Area 51]

Area 51, these are just simply my take, I could be totally wrong.



Fair enough everyone has their own take on things and I didn't mean to attack your opinion, although it may have come across like that. I'm still pissed at how embarassing last season was, and that often comes through in my posts. I still can't believe some of the things that were allowed to go on last year - - it's as frustrating to think about today as it was then.

Believe it or not, I'm optimistic about the new coaching staff and excited about the player moves that have happened so far. The interesting part will be to see how many of the castoffs will actually get picked up by other teams and make solid contributions and how many will fade into obscurity never to be heard from again. Hopefully they can get rid of the rest of the deadwood and hangers-on before the season starts and move forward with some new faces.

Can't wait for July 1st!

[Area 51]

As a matter of fact you can look at every single starting receiver in the league and they all take plays off. It's impossible to run 60 pass routes a game at full speed with 20 seconds rest between each play so they choose plays where they pace themselves. I just feel its pretty harsh to call a man a dog for doing what every receiver does.



Interesting. I had no idea that kind of thing went on. Makes me wonder, do all the DBs take plays off too or is it just a receiver thing? Because if the DBs have to react and run full speed covering on all those pass routes plus come up in support on run plays, then it only makes sense the DBs would have to go half-throttle at times too. Which raises the question - - what happens if a DB takes a play off and the receiver opposite him goes balls-out? Maybe that explains all the blown coverage last year.

[AngeloV]

@Area51-I can't tell you how you should go about criticizing another human being but calling MEN you have never had any real dealings with dogs is SO disrespectful. I could sit here and tell you that on some of those routes that you saw Brandon Rideau "quit on" were not a matter of effort but lack of understanding. I could sit here and tell you that receivers are taught that when running into deep zone coverage or soft man-to-man coverage that they should stop and sit down "in the hole" so the quarterback could deliberately throw behind him.

Thank-You JY. I said numerous times on here that Rideau and Jyles simply were not on the same page last season, only to get shot down by the faction that called him lazy. He never seemed to have these "break downs" when Lemon was starting. Not that the offence was performing any better, but Rideau looked a lot better in the first half. I for one, am sorry to see him go.

[JY26]

Every football player in the CFL game that doesn't sub out has to "pace" himself with the exception being on special teams. We condition ourselves so that "pace" is still high tempo. For a DB it doesn't often come in the form of coverage. We always have to be ready to react and coverage is our primary responsibility. An example where some younger DBs get lulled to sleep is on play action passes with run going away. It is natural to relax for a few steps because if everyone is doing their job a backside DB shouldn't be needed on a front side run. Veteran receivers like Geroy Simon, Fred Stamps or Arland Bruce are guys that know how to set you up by coming off lazy for a few run plays and then one play burst all of sudden. It can catch the best DB's off guard. In the case of a WR pacing would take place on a run play away from him where he might run his route at 80 percent speed and with no intent to get open. The best WRs in the league incorporate that pace into their every down game so that they catch passes both at speed and at pace.

[paulwoods13]

. . . calling MEN you have never had any real dealings with dogs is SO disrespectful. . . . I believe it is your God given right to be however you choose to be but I am asking you to please be considerate. I am sure you have friends and you wouldn't want someone to talk about your friends so disrespectfully without knowing the whole story.

Thanks, JY, for reminding us all about this. The vitriol and name-calling on the old forum got so bad at times last season that some folks stopped going to it. We all hate losing, we hate when guys seem to be unqualified for the positions they are in and we really hate when they seem to not even be trying. But to cal them names (something I admit I myself have done) is not necessary or appropriate.

[gilthethrill]

Fair enough everyone has their own take on things and I didn't mean to attack your opinion, although it may have come across like that. I'm still pissed at how embarassing last season was, and that often comes through in my posts. I still can't believe some of the things that were allowed to go on last year - - it's as frustrating to think about today as it was then.

Believe it or not, I'm optimistic about the new coaching staff and excited about the player moves that have happened so far. The interesting part will be to see how many of the castoffs will actually get picked up by other teams and make solid contributions and how many will fade into obscurity never to be heard from again. Hopefully they can get rid of the rest of the deadwood and hangers-on before the season starts and move forward with some new faces.

Can't wait for July 1st!

Have no worries A51, I did not take your replies as attacks...I view you as a passionate but yet frustrated fan of the Double Blue.

[gilthethrill]

Thank-You JY. I said numerous times on here that Rideau and Jyles simply were not on the same page last season, only to get shot down by the faction that called him lazy. He never seemed to have these "break downs" when Lemon was starting. Not that the offence was performing any better, but Rideau looked a lot better in the first half. I for one, am sorry to see him go.

I still think back to the game in Hamilton this past season (another game that got away), Lemon & Rideau were a wrecking crew that night...oddly enough both players at this point are out of the game. Rideau was also known to make more than one spectacular catch during the season.