Free Agency 2013

[Nob]

Twitter (Duane Ford) says Argos have signed LB James Yurichuk from BC.

[294life]

Foley would accept a pay reduction to stay with the argos. aw man that's just beautiful......:cry:but only if he becomes a QB rusher

[KCargosfan]

From what I'm gathering B.C. signed Elimimian for north of $150K.

I wish salaries would get released. Would make today a lot more interesting. For instance, how much did Edmonton overpay the overrated Odell Willis?

[ArgoGabe22]

Waiting to see if McCollough will re-sign. I'm very skeptical Foley will be back.

[Nob]

The Argos better resign Foley. Bulcke just signed in Hamilton, meaning a there are few, if any, non-import DL left in free agency to replace Foley if he leaves.

Of course, there still is Cleon Lang, and this year's draft of DL possibilities.

[ArgoRavi]

Waiting to see if McCollough will re-sign. I'm very skeptical Foley will be back.

At this point, I am doubtful on both of them. I expect McCollough to sign with Hamilton. As for Foley, I guess he still isn't nuts about not being able to put up huge personal stats. If he hasn't totally bought into the Chris Jones' defence by now and its ability to win championships, then so long.

[ArgoRavi]

I see that Dwight Anderson has signed with the Roughriders which should force a lot of Saskatchewan fans to backtrack on their complaints over the years about Anderson being classless.

[Wobbler]

I expect McCollough to sign with Hamilton.
According to Drew Edwards, this just happened.

[paulwoods13]

The Yurichuk signing deserves more comment. He is an excellent ST player, wonder if they see him competing for an LB spot. It would have to be McCune's spot because I can't see him fitting at either the WILL or SAM positions. McCune was OK last season, but if we lose Foley I think Argos have to seriously consider starting either Yurichuk or Pottinger at MLB. I am guessing Y's signing means farewell to Tristan Black. Hamilton's signing of Bulcke and Williams likely means they are not going hard after Foley, so we may yet get him back.

[Nob]

Very sad to see McCollough go, and to Hamilton to boot, but if there is one thing Barker and Jones did well it was find DB's. If you remember correctly the Argos started the season with 4 rookies in the defensive backfield. Things worked out alright. They still have Watkins, Horne, and Younger. They will need to replace both halfbacks, which will make life interesting.

I guess Carter will go inside. That's a start. Lets see what happens next.

[ArgoRavi]

The Yurichuk signing deserves more comment. He is an excellent ST player, wonder if they see him competing for an LB spot. It would have to be McCune's spot because I can't see him fitting at either the WILL or SAM positions. McCune was OK last season, but if we lose Foley I think Argos have to seriously consider starting either Yurichuk or Pottinger at MLB. I am guessing Y's signing means farewell to Tristan Black. Hamilton's signing of Bulcke and Williams likely means they are not going hard after Foley, so we may yet get him back.

I didn't see Tristan Black being re-signed in any event but Yurichuk's signing likely spells the end for Black in Toronto for sure. Yurichuk should improve the special teams coverage which was subpar in 2012 and he will likely see some significant snaps on defence as well. This is an excellent signing.

[OV Argo]

I didn't see Tristan Black being re-signed in any event but Yurichuk's signing likely spells the end for Black in Toronto for sure. Yurichuk should improve the special teams coverage which was subpar in 2012 and he will likely see some significant snaps on defence as well. This is an excellent signing.


How come Pottinger or Tristan Black didn't see any "signifigant snaps" on D last season then? - both IMO are probably better pure MLBs than Yurichuck - and I like his signing - let's see though if he plays any real time on D.

Wonder if Matt Black will get a real shot to play on D now? - maybe i guess, along with the possibility of a NI playing at MLB or David Lee playing DE, or Laing or one of the top notch DT draft pick prospects playing there; IF it's pencilled-in only one NI needs to play on D though ... ?

[matchuk]

argos need to resign mann too imo...

[ArgoRavi]

How come Pottinger or Tristan Black didn't see any "signifigant snaps" on D last season then? - both IMO are probably better pure MLBs than Yurichuck - and I like his signing - let's see though if he plays any real time on D.

Wonder if Matt Black will get a real shot to play on D now? - maybe i guess, along with the possibility of a NI playing at MLB or David Lee playing DE, or Laing or one of the top notch DT draft pick prospects playing there; IF it's pencilled-in only one NI needs to play on D though ... ?

It wasn't pencilled in that way last year so I doubt that it will be this year.

[OV Argo]

It wasn't pencilled in that way last year so I doubt that it will be this year.


Really? - and you know this how?

So I'd guess you'd agree with me that there is decent chance that Yurichuck (veteran) or Pottinger (veteran) or Tonye-Tonye - at MLB, or Matt Black (veteran) in the D backfield or David Lee at DE (2nd year) or Laing at DT or some D-Line draft pick possibilites from a strong draft crop there, will all have very good chances to see "signifigant" playing time - and by that I mean majority of the game playing time and not a play here or there or as injury replacements - on the Argos D this coming season, eh? We shall see; and of course there is never any good ole pencilling-in stuff going on. On just what possible basis could you make your claim that Yuriichuck is a great signing who will play on D ? And that Foley guy i guess just didn't buy into Jones' incredible D schemes when he made all those plays on D to be recognized with an outstanding player award for his role in the Argos GC win? = get rid of the bum.

[Wobbler]

Don't be ridiculous, OV. Foley had a poor-to-fair season and complained publicly. Are those the qualities you're looking for in a player?

I think he'll be back, somewhat humbled, and that will be good for everyone. Please don't pretend that he's been ill-treated.

[294life]

I see that Dwight Anderson has signed with the Roughriders which should force a lot of Saskatchewan fans to backtrack on their complaints over the years about Anderson being classless.

They might still want to cover their eyes as a precaution.

[paulwoods13]

How come Pottinger or Tristan Black didn't see any "signifigant snaps" on D last season then? - both IMO are probably better pure MLBs than Yurichuck - and I like his signing - let's see though if he plays any real time on D.

Pottinger was injured and unable to play for most of the season. Black was deemed not worthy of playing on defence, and I have no quarrel with that. He had one good game at LB as an injury fill-in, way back in 2010 -- that's it. I suppose he could be a victim of good-ole-boy-penciling-in (anything's possible, after all) but if he really was starting-calibre, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't have started at some point since it would allow an extra import to be played somewhere else that might have helped the team, like on the o-line or at the second wide receiver spot.

[OV Argo]

Don't be ridiculous, OV. Foley had a poor-to-fair season and complained publicly. Are those the qualities you're looking for in a player?

I think he'll be back, somewhat humbled, and that will be good for everyone. Please don't pretend that he's been ill-treated.

Who said anything about him being ill-treated?; he was a full-time player on D and came-up big in the biggest game of the year; I was referring to some of the comments here that seem to suggest it'd be better if he's gone from the Argos - cause he's some selfish prima donna who only thinks about personal stats, or can't get with the team program? I guess they should have sat him down or cut or traded him last year then? Zero tackles on D in the play-offs and then given a congratulatory free pass to jump another football team - are those the qualities YOU look for in a player or in those running the team who are fine & dandy with that?

[OV Argo]

Pottinger was injured and unable to play for most of the season. Black was deemed not worthy of playing on defence, and I have no quarrel with that. He had one good game at LB as an injury fill-in, way back in 2010 -- that's it. I suppose he could be a victim of good-ole-boy-penciling-in (anything's possible, after all) but if he really was starting-calibre, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't have started at some point since it would allow an extra import to be played somewhere else that might have helped the team, like on the o-line or at the second wide receiver spot.

What do you mean "quarrel"? - are you in contact with the Argos' decision makers and have some input on who plays?

This is a fan forum where there are all sorts of different opinions or views that can he held on players or team decisions or playing styles or league affairs, etc. etc. You may have a hard time believing a lot of things CFL or Argo, and you're entitled to your opinions. It's also just swell if you want to defend every single thing or decision the Argos do or make as some inscrutable act of football genius - have at er. ;o)

[ArgoRavi]

Really? - and you know this how?

So I'd guess you'd agree with me that there is decent chance that Yurichuck (veteran) or Pottinger (veteran) or Tonye-Tonye - at MLB, or Matt Black (veteran) in the D backfield or David Lee at DE (2nd year) or Laing at DT or some D-Line draft pick possibilites from a strong draft crop there, will all have very good chances to see "signifigant" playing time - and by that I mean majority of the game playing time and not a play here or there or as injury replacements - on the Argos D this coming season, eh? We shall see; and of course there is never any good ole pencilling-in stuff going on. On just what possible basis could you make your claim that Yuriichuck is a great signing who will play on D ? And that Foley guy i guess just didn't buy into Jones' incredible D schemes when he made all those plays on D to be recognized with an outstanding player award for his role in the Argos GC win? = get rid of the bum.

How often was there only one non-import on the field on defence last year, OV? I believe that there were at least two Canadians on defence the majority of the time last season so I am not sure why they would suddenly go down to one this year. Yurichuk did play significant snaps for B.C. on defence last year and it would seem that Barker expects him to do the same this year. I don't understand why you think that Tristan Black is better than Yurichuk either considering that Black has been unable to earn more snaps on defence over the last three years while Yurichuk has. Furthermore, Black's special teams play declined last season while Yurichuk has been one of the better special teams players in the league over the last few years.

[OV Argo]

How often was there only one non-import on the field on defence last year, OV? I believe that there were at least two Canadians on defence the majority of the time last season so I am not sure why they would suddenly go down to one this year. Yurichuk did play significant snaps for B.C. on defence last year and it would seem that Barker expects him to do the same this year. I don't understand why you think that Tristan Black is better than Yurichuk either considering that Black has been unable to earn more snaps on defence over the last three years while Yurichuk has. Furthermore, Black's special teams play declined last season while Yurichuk has been one of the better special teams players in the league over the last few years.


Sorry Ravi - I have to base my opinions of football players mostly by having seen them actually play the game on the field; Yurichuck and Black have both played a bit of linebacker in the CFL, and neither has exactly been a superstar in limited time, but IMO both have looked pretty solid; just to me - Black has looked a bit better and more of a natural MLB type; Yurichuck may be the better ST player though and could well end up being more valuable to the Argos - we'll see how much playing time he "earns" on D.

If you want me to believe that because team x doesn't give player y on their roster any playing time is some sort of incredible conclusive proof the guy isn't "good enough" - sorry can't do that either; Mike Pringle got cut by the Esks in his early CFL days , so have all sorts of other players been similarly dismissed by one football team only to emerge as a top player on another team who gave them a shot; I guess you would have concluded that Rob Bagg or Jerome Messam or Burk Dales or Andre Durie just weren't CFL calibre players after every single CFL team genius coaching staff chose to ignore them in the draft? - you are free to believe as you wish however. ;o)

[paulwoods13]

What do you mean "quarrel"? - are you in contact with the Argos' decision makers and have some input on who plays?

This is a fan forum where there are all sorts of different opinions or views that can he held on players or team decisions or playing styles or league affairs, etc. etc. You may have a hard time believing a lot of things CFL or Argo, and you're entitled to your opinions. It's also just swell if you want to defend every single thing or decision the Argos do or make as some inscrutable act of football genius - have at er. ;o)

Who the heck peed in your cornflakes this morning, OV? How is saying "I have no quarrel with" a decision the team made somehow indicative of me having input into those decisions? Where and how does my reply to you insinuate that I don't think this forum benefits from all different views? What evidence can you offer that I have defended "every single thing or decision the Argos do"? Seriously, why the attack on me as opposed to my opinions? Don't you stand by your own statement that there are and should be "all sorts of different opinions or views"?

Yeesh.

BTW, if you care to respond to the actual opinions I expressed in the previous post (wrt Pottinger and Black), I'd actually be interested in whatever you have to say.

[paulwoods13]

If you want me to believe that because team x doesn't give player y on their roster any playing time is some sort of incredible conclusive proof the guy isn't "good enough" - sorry can't do that either; Mike Pringle got cut by the Esks in his early CFL days , so have all sorts of other players been similarly dismissed by one football team only to emerge as a top player on another team who gave them a shot; I guess you would have concluded that Rob Bagg or Jerome Messam or Burk Dales or Andre Durie just weren't CFL calibre players after every single CFL team genius coaching staff chose to ignore them in the draft? - you are free to believe as you wish however. ;o)

The beauty of this argument is that it is impossible to refute. Any player who was cut by any team can be declared as just another example of the good ol' boys' myopic thinking, and it's impossible to disprove such an assertion because the player, having been cut, is now gone. Like, say, Greg Alexandre, the non-import DT you were so high on. He disappeared without a trace after being cut. Was he another Bagg? Whatever your answer is, there is no way to prove or disprove it because he is no longer a player whose worth can actually be evaluated.

[OV Argo]

The beauty of this argument is that it is impossible to refute. Any player who was cut by any team can be declared as just another example of the good ol' boys' myopic thinking, and it's impossible to disprove such an assertion because the player, having been cut, is now gone. Like, say, Greg Alexandre, the non-import DT you were so high on. He disappeared without a trace after being cut. Was he another Bagg? Whatever your answer is, there is no way to prove or disprove it because he is no longer a player whose worth can actually be evaluated.

Exactly - no evidence or "proof" from the playing field -and who knows; some are free to believe however that player x or y is a no talent, not good enough for the CFL type - without any evidence and because they accept every single thing the experts running a football team do as some inscrutable truth or proof. There is however some other on field evidence to go by outside CFL play - like college ball or NFL play perhaps; if some wanted to believe Cleo Lemon was going to be a CFL superstar because he had made NFL rosters and played there, they were entitled to their opinion but maybe their mind got changed when they saw him play in the CFL; Greg Alexandre was a multiple time CIS all-star DT - who got zero CFL playing time when he was available on the Argos roster - could well be he just wasn't "good enough", but I wouldn't accept that as some truth just because a particular coaching staff did not play him - you are free to reach such a conclusion without the on-field evidence of course.

And nobody peed in my cornflakes; you want to be able to disagree with or at times mock other opinions here that you don't like, but you get bent out of shape when it's thrown back at you? Pottinger may have been hurt part of the season last year but Im pretty sure i saw him dressed some games - with zero playing time at MLB so that an (IMO) average to mediocre McCune could play game in game out, all the time; and yep - Tristan Black rated no playing time on D either - why simply because he obviously wasn't "good enough" as proven by the coaches who didn't try him? I saw Maurice Mann playing at receiver however.

[bluto]

Good Luck (in 16 out of 18 games) to Tristan Black in Saskatchewan.

http://www.cfl.ca/article/fa13-riders-ink-brown-and-black-re-sign-sisco

[paulwoods13]

Exactly - no evidence or "proof" from the playing field -and who knows; some are free to believe however that player x or y is a no talent, not good enough for the CFL type - without any evidence and because they accept every single thing the experts running a football team do as some inscrutable truth or proof. There is however some other on field evidence to go by outside CFL play - like college ball or NFL play perhaps; if some wanted to believe Cleo Lemon was going to be a CFL superstar because he had made NFL rosters and played there, they were entitled to their opinion but maybe their mind got changed when they saw him play in the CFL; Greg Alexandre was a multiple time CIS all-star DT - who got zero CFL playing time when he was available on the Argos roster - could well be he just wasn't "good enough", but I wouldn't accept that as some truth just because a particular coaching staff did not play him - you are free to reach such a conclusion without the on-field evidence of course.

Right, just as I wouldn't accept as "truth" that he got screwed out of a shot because of his nationality or some other perceived reason that is nothing more than a guess. The point being, tho, that any statement that a player was not given a fair shot because of good-ol'-boy thinking (or whatever reason is presented) cannot possibly be disproven if the player is not on the field to evaluate. It's easy as pie to make such claims because no one can ever prove them wrong -- that doesn't make them right, either. For every Mike Pringle who got cut by one team and then turned into a star with another, there are literally hundreds of guys who got cut and never got picked up by another team -- that doesn't make all of 'em, or any of 'em -- Mike Pringle.


Pottinger may have been hurt part of the season last year but Im pretty sure i saw him dressed some games - with zero playing time at MLB so that an (IMO) average to mediocre McCune could play game in game out, all the time; and yep - Tristan Black rated no playing time on D either - why simply because he obviously wasn't "good enough" as proven by the coaches who didn't try him? I saw Maurice Mann playing at receiver however.

I'm not sure what Mann's playing time has to do with Black's, other than the fact that you were quite vocal in suggesting Mann had never done anything in the CFL to justify a starting spot. I guess you are equating that judgment with the similar judgment others have made about Black? I was not the least bit high on mann, either, but I saw him do some pretty good things down the stretch last season and I wouldn't be upset if he was re-signed and competed for a spot. As for Pottinger, I've stated on many occasions that -- at least when he was healthy -- I thought he was a starting-calibre MLB. I thought (and said many times) that he played very well in that position in 2010. Unfortunately, he suffered a serious injury in 2011 that really curtailed his play, and for whatever reason McCune beat him and everyone else out last season. Maybe because the coaches felt McCune was better. Maybe because Jones felt he was a better fit for his defensive system. Maybe because Pottinger can't run as well as he used to because of the lingering effects of the injury. Maybe because Jones and/or Milanovich would never dream of playing a non-import at MLB. I personally believe that any of the first three reasons are quite plausible and valid, and that the fourth is extremely unlikely. Bottom line is, we won the GC with the personnel decisions the coaches made, including McCune at MLB, Mann at WR some of the time and Alexandre out of football. I'll take that every year.

[OV Argo]

And it's just as easy as pie for your types to claim that player x or y in a TC or on the roster who got zero playing time was simply because the "coaches always know best" or "just want to win" and therfore the player isn't "good enough" or however else the cliches go - it can't possibly be disproven with no evidence from the playing field. Doesn't make those claims right either.

I'll stick with my evidence from the playing field bent; and if you wish to discuss specific individual football players based on what they've done there - we could do that. And if you wish to write-off specific players just because so & so football expert didn't play them - with zero evidence from the football field - don't expect me to want to discuss that and I'll try to refrain from objecting to the "experts" always are right stuff I often read here.

[paulwoods13]

And it's just as easy as pie for your types to claim that player x or y in a TC or on the roster who got zero playing time was simply because the "coaches always know best" or "just want to win" and therfore the player isn't "good enough" or however else the cliches go - it can't possibly be disproven with no evidence from the playing field. Doesn't make those claims right either.

I'll stick with my evidence from the playing field bent; and if you wish to discuss specific individual football players based on what they've done there - we could do that. And if you wish to write-off specific players just because so & so football expert didn't play them - with zero evidence from the football field - don't expect me to want to discuss that and I'll try to refrain from objecting to the "experts" always are right stuff I often read here.

OV, could you show where I ever said a decision was made because "the coaches always know best," which therefore means the player isn't "good enough." I have said many times that I believed a decision was made because that's what the coaches determined was correct. I have said I believed that coaches concluded, applying their judgment, that a player was not good enough to play a particular position, make the team, etc.

I continue to believe that decisions on player utilization are based on judgments the coaches made. I have never, as far as I can recall, said that their judgments must by definition be correct. They are their judgments, based on what they see in practice, in games and in the locker room, and taking into account all the other factors, including contract status and -- yes, I'll say it -- import/non-import status. Do I agree with every decision coaches ever make? No. Do I feel they make those decisions with a hell of a lot more information at their disposal than any of us have? Yes. Am I willing to accept that only they can actually make those decisions? Yes -- because clearly none of us is in a position to make player personnel decisions, much as some of us might wish it were otherwise. All we can do is opine.

If all this disqualifies me (or should I say my "types") from engaging in discussion with you, or vice versa, that would be a shame but I guess so be it.

[Wobbler]

OV, I don't think you completely disregard the ability of a coaching staff and management to evaluate player ability. I'm sure that you also realize that "we" don't completely trust their ability to do so. In my opinion they get it right most of the time, so I give them the benefit of the doubt. Why? Because they have access to considerably more data than I do. It's hard for me to compete with: being able to talk to the player and his teammates and his coaches and his former teammates and his former coaches, to watch him work out, play, hundreds of hours of tape, and so forth. Oh, and stats. As a fan, what do I have? Stats, and several minutes worth of viewing largely determined by what was shown on TV and/or when I happened to notice the player in question.

Perhaps this comes down to a willingness to trust experts. For example, although I am a scientist I know almost nothing about climate modeling, so I'm quite content to defer to climatology community for assessment and prediction of global temperature changes. They don't always get it right, but they have a much greater chance of being right than I do.

I suggest that players are correctly evaluated at least 90% of the time. There are some who go on to prove their coaches/GMs assessments "wrong", but those are the exceptions that prove the rule. IMHO.

[OV Argo]

I agree with the basics in the above posts by Paul & Wobbler: the coaches are doing their best to run the team, and they know way more about the game and team than us guys; but let's also recognize they can make mistakes or dumb moves and that they have their biases or favorite ways. And that the nature of these type forums is going to include a lot of questioining or criticism (maybe way off base or over the top sometimes - but still there are lots of varied opinions possible); if you expect just ra ra homer cheerleading and kool-aid drinking here - you're probably in the wrong place.


Getting back to the topic at hand: IMO Yurichuck was a good signing who is a capable (or perhaps upgrade) replacement for Tristan Black who is no big loss - especially if the coaches lost faith in him/benched him. We shall see if Yurichuck is a very good or even decent contributor this coming season - I`ll bet he will be, at least on special teams.

[KCargosfan]

the coaches are doing their best to run the team, and they know way more about the game and team than us guys;

I don't know; this is football, not rocket science. Like many other things in life, a lot of it depends on who you know. Would Milanovich be a head coach right now if he wasn't a good college quarterback who eventually played pro football for a short stretch? I doubt it.

I've seen too many bad coaches down here in KC to think a lot of coaches are "brilliant" football guys and smarter than a high school coach or people on a board like us. There's many people on this board that I would rather have as a head coach than Bart Andrus, Todd Haley, Romeo Crennel, Greg Marshall, Gunther Cunningham, Ron Prince, Dan Hawkins, etc. (Marshall and Cunningham can obviously coordinate a defense, but as head coaches they are terrible).

[ArgoRavi]

The Ticats signed yet another free agent today in former Bomber LB Marcellus Bowman. I am not sure what to make of all of these signings by Hamilton. Signing a bunch of free agents from other teams does not tend to be the best way to build a football club. The Ticats did need a defensive overhaul and they are getting one but I just not sure how well this particular method will work for them. Having said this, if they can even get a mediocre defence out of these free agent moves and their offence performs as well this year as last, they could be Grey Cup contenders.

[paulwoods13]

I don't know; this is football, not rocket science. Like many other things in life, a lot of it depends on who you know. Would Milanovich be a head coach right now if he wasn't a good college quarterback who eventually played pro football for a short stretch? I doubt it.

I've seen too many bad coaches down here in KC to think a lot of coaches are "brilliant" football guys and smarter than a high school coach or people on a board like us. There's many people on this board that I would rather have as a head coach than Bart Andrus, Todd Haley, Romeo Crennel, Greg Marshall, Gunther Cunningham, Ron Prince, Dan Hawkins, etc. (Marshall and Cunningham can obviously coordinate a defense, but as head coaches they are terrible).

OK, now I have heard everything -- OV defending coaches and KC claiming many of them aren't as smart as us! Thanks, both of you, for making me smile.

I think we can all agree that coaches have access to more info than we do, and that even with all that info at their disposal, they sometimes make dumb decisions. Thankfully some of those dumb decisions (Als getting rid of Owens, Stamps cutting Kackert, to name a couple) have benefited the Argos. Every team makes personnel mistakes, and a lot of what ends up happening is based on luck, timing, team needs, who you know, and a million other factors. Evaluating personnel is an art, not a science. There is no doubt in my mind that many players who get cut could play and even start elsewhere if the circumstances were right.

[Wobbler]

if you expect just ra ra homer cheerleading and kool-aid drinking here - you're probably in the wrong place.
I agree with that. It's helpful to remember that we have very little information to work with when judging personnel moves, however. I wonder if Barker would be willing to do the occasional Twitter chat or respond to a curated list of questions about his decisons? I think I'll inquire.


We shall see if Yurichuck is a very good or even decent contributor this coming season - I`ll bet he will be, at least on special teams.
It seems like a lateral move at worst.

[jerrym]

Tristan Black has signed with the Riders.

[Rich]

I think we can all agree that coaches have access to more info than we do, and that even with all that info at their disposal, they sometimes make dumb decisions. Thankfully some of those dumb decisions (Als getting rid of Owens, Stamps cutting Kackert, to name a couple) have benefited the Argos. Every team makes personnel mistakes, and a lot of what ends up happening is based on luck, timing, team needs, who you know, and a million other factors. Evaluating personnel is an art, not a science. There is no doubt in my mind that many players who get cut could play and even start elsewhere if the circumstances were right.

So when you say that the coaches determined that Tristan Black "wasn't good enough" to start at LB, you really mean to say that he didn't fit into the team's plans at that particular time. You have said several times on this board that the coach's release of player x was proof that he "wasn't good enough", and I think that kind of absolutism gets the goat of OV and others including me. I dunno, maybe it's just semantics, but the truth is there is sometimes very little to distinguish one player's attributes from another's, so to say a guy gets cut or demoted to backup because he "wasn't good enough" is sometimes very unfair.


I have said many times that I believed a decision was made because that's what the coaches determined was correct. I have said I believed that coaches concluded, applying their judgment, that a player was not good enough to play a particular position, make the team, etc.

[Rich]

How often was there only one non-import on the field on defence last year, OV? I believe that there were at least two Canadians on defence the majority of the time last season so I am not sure why they would suddenly go down to one this year.

Foley and who else? I think after Belli returned he was the second NIMP, but before that what Canadian played regularly on defence last year? Matt Black got some snaps, but certainly not the majority of them.

I think the lack of NIMP starters on defence will be a big problem this year if Foley isn't re-upped.

[KCargosfan]

OK, now I have heard everything -- OV defending coaches and KC claiming many of them aren't as smart as us! Thanks, both of you, for making me smile.

I think we can all agree that coaches have access to more info than we do, and that even with all that info at their disposal, they sometimes make dumb decisions. Thankfully some of those dumb decisions (Als getting rid of Owens, Stamps cutting Kackert, to name a couple) have benefited the Argos. Every team makes personnel mistakes, and a lot of what ends up happening is based on luck, timing, team needs, who you know, and a million other factors. Evaluating personnel is an art, not a science. There is no doubt in my mind that many players who get cut could play and even start elsewhere if the circumstances were right.

haha, why not? I'm talking in general, not just specific to player personnel decisions. For instance, former KC Chiefs coach Todd Haley got into the NFL after a mediocre college GOLF career because his dad was a longtime NFL scout. Why is he a better football mind than you?

Former Chiefs GM Scott Pioli married Bill Parcells' daughter and then eventually rode Tom Brady's coattails to the GM job of the Chiefs. In his fourth year on the job after multiple terrible drafts and failing to get a decent quarterback, he watched over a team that went 2-14. I'm pretty sure if you were given an NFL GM job, you would do better than 2-14 your 4th year.

Again, it's football, not quantum physics. Milanovich isn't some genius who has a vastly better football mind than you, he was just a better athlete who eventually played 7 years of pro ball in various leagues and used contacts made during his playing time to get into coaching.

[argolio]

haha, why not? I'm talking in general, not just specific to player personnel decisions. For instance, former KC Chiefs coach Todd Haley got into the NFL after a mediocre college GOLF career because his dad was a longtime NFL scout. Why is he a better football mind than you?

Former Chiefs GM Scott Pioli married Bill Parcells' daughter and then eventually rode Tom Brady's coattails to the GM job of the Chiefs. In his fourth year on the job after multiple terrible drafts and failing to get a decent quarterback, he watched over a team that went 2-14. I'm pretty sure if you were given an NFL GM job, you would do better than 2-14 your 4th year.

Again, it's football, not quantum physics. Milanovich isn't some genius who has a vastly better football mind than you, he was just a better athlete who eventually played 7 years of pro ball in various leagues and used contacts made during his playing time to get into coaching.I'm sure most if not all of us would fail miserably trying to run a camp.

"Okay guys, do jumping jacks for two hours!"

[zontar]

The Ticats signed yet another free agent today in former Bomber LB Marcellus Bowman. I am not sure what to make of all of these signings by Hamilton. Signing a bunch of free agents from other teams does not tend to be the best way to build a football club. The Ticats did need a defensive overhaul and they are getting one but I just not sure how well this particular method will work for them. Having said this, if they can even get a mediocre defence out of these free agent moves and their offence performs as well this year as last, they could be Grey Cup contenders.

What exactly is the alternative ? Maintain the status quo or go out and sign unproven import rookies and tell season ticket holders after another disapointing season they might have to wait two years for them to develop, if at all ?

[paulwoods13]

So when you say that the coaches determined that Tristan Black "wasn't good enough" to start at LB, you really mean to say that he didn't fit into the team's plans at that particular time. You have said several times on this board that the coach's release of player x was proof that he "wasn't good enough", and I think that kind of absolutism gets the goat of OV and others including me. I dunno, maybe it's just semantics, but the truth is there is sometimes very little to distinguish one player's attributes from another's, so to say a guy gets cut or demoted to backup because he "wasn't good enough" is sometimes very unfair.

I don't think I have said flatly that a player was not good enough, without attributing that to a coaches' or team decision, but I may be wrong about that. There's no question I have said many, many times that I believed the coaches determined that someone wasn't good enough. I thought "in their judgment" was implicit in such a statement, and certainly at times I said exactly that. However, I take your (and OV's) point and I will endeavour to make my thoughts on this clearer and less inflammatory or absolute in the future.

[paulwoods13]

Foley and who else? I think after Belli returned he was the second NIMP, but before that what Canadian played regularly on defence last year? Matt Black got some snaps, but certainly not the majority of them.

I think the lack of NIMP starters on defence will be a big problem this year if Foley isn't re-upped.

After initially playing only as a sub for Foley, David Lee was on the field at the same time as Foley for the majority of his snaps, I would say. However, the amount of time both were on the field together was way below 50 per cent of overall defensive snaps. I agree that re-signing Foley would make things way easier for the ratio. If he doesn't re-sign, either Lee, a linebacker (Pottinger or Yurichuk, unless by some miracle Greenwood lands in our lap) or Matt Black will have to start. I'd personally like to see two NI starters on defence and six on offence (two receivers and four linemen) because using one extra NI provides much more roster flex in the event of an injury. I would have liked to see the Argos sign Bulcke for that reason.

[ArgoRavi]

What exactly is the alternative ? Maintain the status quo or go out and sign unproven import rookies and tell season ticket holders after another disapointing season they might have to wait two years for them to develop, if at all ?

Signing unproven import rookies worked out pretty well for the Argos in 2012.

[OV Argo]

Foley and who else? I think after Belli returned he was the second NIMP, but before that what Canadian played regularly on defence last year? Matt Black got some snaps, but certainly not the majority of them.

I think the lack of NIMP starters on defence will be a big problem this year if Foley isn't re-upped.


Ravi is incorrect (I'll bet - maybe hard to prove) if he really believes there were 2 NIs on defence for the Argos a majority of the time last year; Foley was the only regular; and there's no way either of Matt Black or David Lee were on the field a majority of the time on D; when Belli came back - he played quite a bit. Jones would rather play his guys on D I supsect.

SO - IF Foley does not return, it could equal a cliched good ole boy "ratio problem" if they just had to play a NI on defence to meet the minimum 7 (which of course they don't if they had 4 to 5 NIs at O-Line and 2 to 3 NI receivers "starting" - easily a possibility). However, with real, open TC competition - there are plenty of openings on D now with several starters gone - Matt Black could compete for a D-backfield job; David Lee at DE maybe; Yurichuck, Pottinger or Tonye-Tonye possibly, given a real shot to compete at MLB; Laing is signed and given a real shot to play at DT - and there's also some very good DT prospcts this draft; and some very good draftable DE propspects too who could possibly play right away; rookie NIs not often given much of a chance to play on D though by your typical CFL decision making "thinker" lately. With all those opening and possiblities, there is a chance one or more NI could play regularly on the Argo D.

Another option is to play one NI only on D, but not a regular starter necessarily; instead one NI on D on the field by committee approach, by subbing in and out different guys; I believe this approach was used by the Stamps a few years back when Jones was in charge of their D (and I believe they got away with bending the ratio rules there by sometimes having all imports on the field on their D with some DIs on defence, and after a NI "started" the game on D).

[paulwoods13]

I believe this approach was used by the Stamps a few years back when Jones was in charge of their D (and I believe they got away with bending the ratio rules there by sometimes having all imports on the field on their D with some DIs on defence, and after a NI "started" the game on D).

Very interesting. I've often wondered which official is responsible for monitoring the insertion of DIs -- I don't believe I have ever seen a player sent off the field or a penalty called for it. Would it be considered illegal substitution, or is it up to the on-field officials to catch and eject guys before the play starts?

[ArgoRavi]

Very interesting. I've often wondered which official is responsible for monitoring the insertion of DIs -- I don't believe I have ever seen a player sent off the field or a penalty called for it. Would it be considered illegal substitution, or is it up to the on-field officials to catch and eject guys before the play starts?

My understanding is that the head referee meets with the head coaches prior to the game and obtains their list of DIs. The on-field officials are supposed to keep track of these things IIRC. I am assuming that it would be an illegal substitution penalty.

Nowhere in the rulebook does it say that seven non-imports have to start. That number is arrived at by default as each team dresses 20 non-imports and 19 imports along with three QBs. Out of those 19 imports, three are designated imports meaning that no more than 16 imports can start which leaves the other seven spots automatically for Canadians. A DI can only replace another import so I am not sure how one can be sneaked in to replace a Canadian. The only thing I have ever wondered is how do they keep track of this in the preseason or do they even bother to?

[zontar]

Signing unproven import rookies worked out pretty well for the Argos in 2012.

Works out for everybody, HAM included, but not in so many areas that HAM needed to address.

[Invader]

Nowhere in the rulebook does it say that seven non-imports have to start. That number is arrived at by default as each team dresses 20 non-imports and 19 imports along with three QBs. Out of those 19 imports, three are designated imports meaning that no more than 16 imports can start which leaves the other seven spots automatically for Canadians. A DI can only replace another import so I am not sure how one can be sneaked in to replace a Canadian. The only thing I have ever wondered is how do they keep track of this in the preseason or do they even bother to?
I don't believe the import ratio is in effect during exhibition games.

------

Here is an assesement of Yurichuck by a very knowledgable Lions poster ("Blitz"):


James Yurichuk was one of my favorite Leos. He lost out on a very close training camp battle to a player in Bighill who truly was the best middle linebacker in the league last season. Yurichuk got a lot of rotational reps last season until Eliminian rejoined our Leos. Yurichuk has excellent range, long arms, and talent. He is good enough to start on many teams. He was an excellent special teams player. I understand why he signed with his boyhood favorite team in the Argos. Toronto will also give Yurichuk more opportunity to play than here in B.C. with Bighill, Eliminian, and McKenzie on the roster.

I'd add that Yurichuck is an aggressive player who can punish opponents and has the ability to be a starter for the Argos.

[matchuk]

i dont know if im looking into this too much, but i have noticed foley retweeting a lot of people wanting him to sign in saskatchewan....he hasnt retweeted anyone from toronto that wants him back....

[KCargosfan]

i dont know if im looking into this too much, but i have noticed foley retweeting a lot of people wanting him to sign in saskatchewan....he hasnt retweeted anyone from toronto that wants him back....

I will try and see what happens

[Argoscflguy]

Cant we all just get along and discuss this over some wings and beer?

[OV Argo]

I don't believe the import ratio is in effect during exhibition games.

------

Here is an assesement of Yurichuck by a very knowledgable Lions poster ("Blitz"):



I'd add that Yurichuck is an aggressive player who can punish opponents and has the ability to be a starter for the Argos.

Interesting, and agreed Blitz is a knowledgeable poster over at Lionbackers (maybe a bit of homer-ism going on though in declaring Bighill the best MLB in the league with the season Sherritt had); as a contrast - pretty sure I read a quite different reiview from one of our old pals on yet another CFL forum though (I think it was on Yurichuck, but it could have been the predictable bashing of another Canadian player). I hope Blitz and Invader are right and Yurichuck can be an impact player for the Argos.

[1argoholic]

I like what I've seen in Yurichuck and he just throws himself into tackles. I think this is a great signing.

[ArgoGabe22]

Judging by this tweet I'm guessing Mann has retired?


Maurice Mann III ‏<s>@</s>Mr_GAMTiME (https://twitter.com/Mr_GAMTiME)<small class="time"> </small> Football behind me officially... I'm on my Khalif shi*! Yeee <s>#</s>respect (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23respect&src=hash) <s>#</s>makechoices (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23makechoices&src=hash) <s>#</s>livewiththem (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23livewiththem&src=hash)!




That's a shame, I always thought he was a good receiver who understood what downfield blocking meant. Good for him to leave the game on his own terms, I assume. I don't think you would go from GC starter to no interest from other teams.

[ArgoGabe22]

Another note: Former Argo Cedric Gange-Marcoux also hanged up the cleats this past week. Looked to be a solid guard until the injuries got to him.

[ArgoRavi]

Another note: Former Argo Cedric Gange-Marcoux also hanged up the cleats this past week. Looked to be a solid guard until the injuries got to him.

The weird thing about Gagne-Marcoux is he just seemed to disappear suddenly last season. It would have been nice if someone from the media had actually asked some questions about him so that we fans would have known what happened to him but nobody did.

[ArgoGabe22]

The weird thing about Gagne-Marcoux is he just seemed to disappear suddenly last season. It would have been nice if someone from the media had actually asked some questions about him so that we fans would have known what happened to him but nobody did.

Well we all what Area51's thoughts were.

[matchuk]

That's a shame, I always thought he was a good receiver who understood what downfield blocking meant. Good for him to leave the game on his own terms, I assume. I don't think you would go from GC starter to no interest from other teams.


i agree...i really liked the guy...i also wondered too, why players who can still play would retire? i guess you know when you are done...at least he goes out a champ

[ArgoRavi]

Well we all what Area51's thoughts were.

What did Area 51 say about Gagne-Marcoux?

[ArgoGabe22]

What did Area 51 say about Gagne-Marcoux?

I think it was on CFL.ca forum. He called the injury BS and that his performances was so bad that the Argos just sent him home. If true, why wouldn't they just release him them?

[OV Argo]

The weird thing about Gagne-Marcoux is he just seemed to disappear suddenly last season. It would have been nice if someone from the media had actually asked some questions about him so that we fans would have known what happened to him but nobody did.

Yeah - i found it weird too Ravi; the guy was a former very good CFL O-Line prospect it seemed; maybe he had injury issues, or didn't see eye to eye with the team's coaches, or just lost interest? - who knows - but lack of detailed attention from your typical CFL beat reporter is typical IMO, so not surprising questions about that, and many other team matters, do not get asked; I find it a bit odd that C G-M never seemed to get a real shot to play C in the CFL - guy was a highly rated US college ball C; and a lot of CFL teams are playing converted NI tackles or guards at C ??? ; Jonathan St-Pierre was another similar case of an accomplished US college ball C who did not pan out there in the CFL. Veteran Keeping grabbed the bull though and started at C for a GC winning team - hope he can continue to be solid there and maybe be a leader on the Argos O-Line; as mentioned on another recent post here - some O-linemen can be very good players well into their 30s.

[Will]

Well we all what Area51's thoughts were.

'Cause Area 51 was the gospel in these matters ;)

[Argocister]

Gagne-Marcoux showed up at Bishops last season and helped out for a bit. He resides in the Sherbrooke area. ..... Injured...
I don't know if he helped out at Sherbrooke or any of the CEGEPS around the area.

That's my 2 cents worth

[Will]

Going back on the Area 51 tangent--most of the CFL forum community knows who he is--but he is yet to acknowledge it from what I can tell--he acts as if no revelation was ever made.