Paul Beeston wonders about grass at Skydome and making it a "baseball-only" facility

[shayman]

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/sports/article/184145--jays-exploring-grass-field-for-rogers-centre

Paul Beeston is wondering out loud about installing grass at Skydome, which would only work if it was made a baseball-only facility.
I hope this was just idle speculation in response to a question, but if not ...Hooo boy, here we go.

[bluto]

a none-too-subtle shot across the good ship Argo's bow, no?

and some people still don't believe that Rogers has an official policy of disrupting the Argo's business and their fan's gameday experience...

[T-Bone]

There would be a lot of things to consider. The roof would have to be open a certain amount of time every day to get proper sun light which means a proper drainage system would have to be installed under the turf. That would also lead to weather proofing some stuff in the stadium, I'm sure. Plus how viable does the building become for concerts etc? Is that revenue that comes in during the Jays off season worth losing? There are a lot of questions and I don't see it happening anytime soon.

[ArgoRavi]

If people like Paul Beeston and Keith Pelley are supposed to be friends to the Argos, who needs enemies?

[1argoholic]

Beeson is a tool. As an educated landscape professional I can tell you that fertilizer alone does not keep grass healthy. If they want to add thousands upon thousands to the yearly budget they can install sod. What about water, proper drainage and the most important light? Are they going to install grow lamps? Then a whole new educated grounds crew. This building wasn't built in a way to have a grass field. Does Beeston think this is the same as laying sod in his yard? What lies under the turf now?
I'm very sure the stadiums drainage system is nowhere where it would need to be to take the watering needed for healthy grass. The very hot summer months would just cook the grass in that dome. But knowing Rogers they'd be stupid enough to waste all of this money to try.

[zontar]

Right, Beeston, you need a new house so you put in a new rug ? And you're supposed to be the guru ?

If I were a Jays fan I'd resent being treated like a monkey being tossed peanuts like this in the hopes to keep me quiet.

[argotom]

I still can't believe as evil as Rogers is that this could happen by them shutting out the Argos in the crap dome.
Can stupidity comes ahead of profit?
I guess we will have to wait and find out.

[Midnight Blue]

I know nothing about the intricacies of managing grass fields (except for what I've read above), and I know that Rogers would love nothing better than for the Argos to disappear, but could a grass field work for both baseball and Football, if the Skydome roof was closed during rain when the Argos played (which it is), so they didn't tear up the field and turn it into a mud-fest (fun as that would be - the way Football should be played)? I remember seeing on TV games in the past, where Football was played on grass and dirt (the dirt being the pitching mound and bases area), not that long ago, and perhaps it still happens in some stadiums. How do/did they do it? I do remember that it was common knowledge that Football players sustained less injuries on grass fields (as well as other sports), and even though there are now (and have been for a while) "softer" versions of Astroturf, grass is still the most forgiving, when it comes to injuries. Also, playing on grass is the Football History, and Tradition. Is there a way it could work?

I mean, if we could put a man on the moon...?

[DanTheFan]

Beeston has more to worry about than the grass. He said the Jays will be in the playoffs at least twice in the next 5 years. In that regard, I hope he's right.

[1argoholic]

There are plenty of wonderful new varieties of grass seed that have been developed to withstand less light, water etc..etc but this is a bonehead idea that would raise maintenance cost to the extreme not to mention the cost to install. This isn't just about ripping up the fake stuff and tossing down sod. Does this facility have proper drainage as it was built to shut rain out?

seems to me Beeston was just trying to say what he could to get more asses in the seats. They won't be in the playoffs anytime soon.

[Will]

If people like Paul Beeston and Keith Pelley are supposed to be friends to the Argos, who needs enemies?

Say what you will about Paul Beeston, I'm not ready to throw Keith Pelley under the rug. At least not yet. We as Argo fans owe a great deal to him.

[argolio]

I mean, if we could put a man on the moon...?Did we REALLY put a man on the moon?

Isn't Paul Beeston the guy who signed Roger Clemens in 1996 and also paid for Roger's "support staff" (a.k.a. drug dealers)?

[Mulder]

Well I've heard rumours as to a stadium reno at the Rogers Centre. So it may be possible to do it then.

[Will]

Did we REALLY put a man on the moon?

Isn't Paul Beeston the guy who signed Roger Clemens in 1996 and also paid for Roger's "support staff" (a.k.a. drug dealers)?

Nope it was all a conspiracy.

[matthew]

Paul Beeston and the Argos sharing happier times together at 4:14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR1wBCj2pMo

[Mulder]

Toronto Star Article

http://www.thestar.com/article/1128253--perkins-argos-turfed-if-toronto-blue-jays-put-grass-in-rogers-centre

[Argonauter]

That would cost alot of money and be hard to do. If they do it I wonder where the Argos would have to end up playing.

[T-Bone]

That would cost alot of money and be hard to do. If they do it I wonder where the Argos would have to end up playing.If it is possible to do, Rogers has the money to do it. The Arogs ownership seriously needs to look in to getting in with one of the Pan Am facilities ASAP.

[Skinny G]

I was recently driving along King St. West... and drove by Lamport. It's a 23-24000 seat stadium, sitting in the middle of one of the most up and coming neighbourhoods in Toronto. There is actually a couple parking lots in the area. Couple issues are driving in that area would be pretty bad, and I think the only transit that passes there is the King St. streetcar.... but this could be a consideration, if renovations to this aren't too expensive.

I think somehow getting in on the York site (via Pan Am Games), is the best bet. Ample parking (allowing for tail gating), Go Bus/TTC/York Region Transit all go to York, plus the fact that the subway is being built to York. Plus, the possibilty of having their training facility there (or even close by at Downsview where they are building the MLS training centre) might be decent.

[argonaut11xx]

GRASS in the dome...a GREAT idea....why?

well the Toronto Soccer Club likes playing on grass...so they can move into the Skydome, and the Argo's can have BMO...makes perfect sence...

[Invader]

Getting out of Skydome would be a blessing for the Argos. Couldn't the Argos chip in to enlarge the grandstands at York's new Pan-Am stadium?

TFC, a football team which plays in a soccer league. No wonder they've never made the playoffs...

[1argoholic]

I'm with Snowrogue. They love their soccer in these parts. They show some very minor league stuff on sports highlights. No use for it or basketball.

[T-Bone]

I was recently driving along King St. West... and drove by Lamport. It's a 23-24000 seat stadium, sitting in the middle of one of the most up and coming neighbourhoods in Toronto. There is actually a couple parking lots in the area. Couple issues are driving in that area would be pretty bad, and I think the only transit that passes there is the King St. streetcar.... but this could be a consideration, if renovations to this aren't too expensive.

I think somehow getting in on the York site (via Pan Am Games), is the best bet. Ample parking (allowing for tail gating), Go Bus/TTC/York Region Transit all go to York, plus the fact that the subway is being built to York. Plus, the possibilty of having their training facility there (or even close by at Downsview where they are building the MLS training centre) might be decent.Lamport Stadium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamport_Stadium) is not that large it only has a capacity of 9600. It was built in the 70's and would probably need to be torn down and rebuilt to bring it up to spec for the Argos. I agree the best bet would be to get in with the Pan Am Games before the shovels hit the ground on a new facility so it can be properly designed to accommodate the Argos needs.

[Skinny G]

Lamport Stadium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamport_Stadium) is not that large it only has a capacity of 9600. It was built in the 70's and would probably need to be torn down and rebuilt to bring it up to spec for the Argos. I agree the best bet would be to get in with the Pan Am Games before the shovels hit the ground on a new facility so it can be properly designed to accommodate the Argos needs.

Thanks for the correction. I was positive... it was in the 20k capacity... clearly got it mixed up with something else.

But yes, hopefully Braley and Rudge see the great things that could be for the Argos at York. New multi purpose facility (sports and other events at York), a proper training site, parking, direct transit to the location.... all for drivers, it's not far off the 401, 400 and the 407.... would love to see it happen!

[T-Bone]

Thanks for the correction. I was positive... it was in the 20k capacity... clearly got it mixed up with something else.

But yes, hopefully Braley and Rudge see the great things that could be for the Argos at York. New multi purpose facility (sports and other events at York), a proper training site, parking, direct transit to the location.... all for drivers, it's not far off the 401, 400 and the 407.... would love to see it happen!No worries, it happens. I agree York is the best option right now. In a few years the subway extension will reach up there as well which will be an added bonus.

[ArgoGabe22]

I go to York and I sure don't want them to relocate there. The traffic is brutal and its dead at night. Downtown is the best location but where is the question? How bout tear down some condos lol

[Mulder]

No worries, it happens. I agree York is the best option right now. In a few years the subway extension will reach up there as well which will be an added bonus.

A few things, I would like to think Rogers would give at least a full season's notice. If not 3. I believe when the old management let the stadium rent agreement expire, Argos signed on for 3, 3 year lease agreements with renewal options for both at each interval. It pretty much means Rogers have should give notice very shortly. If not already.

Currently that means 16 Months for the Argo's to have a new home. Which honestly leaves about 3 options.

1) Varsity Stadium with Temp seats.
2) Demo of South end of BMO and rebuild (sorry t-bone!) to CFL spec's Rolling seats an option.
3) Temp stadium somewhere else.

An extra year would probably give the Argos a chance to get funding to build a place somewhere in the city. (2014 season)

A post I found on a comment on DrunkJaysFan


I know an "insider" that knows as good as anyone about what is going to happen down at the Rogers Centre.

He told me about 6 months ago that they really want to redo and make the Rogers centre a much nice stadium. He told me that they talking about:

- Getting a new HD big screen, that will be North America's 2nd largest to the one in Dallas
- New seats in the 100's
- A new roof (or something like that, that will make it open and closer faster)
- A grass field (though, he wasn't as confident about this one as the others)

[SubMariner]

This does not look good at all.
If Rogers Centre really does become baseball-only by April 2013, that might not leave enough time to plan and build a new stadium -- not a good permanent one anyway, at best something cheap and temporary.
The previous Argo owners walked away from a chance to pay $20 million towards a proposed $70 million stadium at York University.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2005/05/12/yorkstadium050512.html

I doubt there's going to be any deal available as good as that this time.

[R.J]

Actually Mulder when Braley "bought" the Argos a new lease agreement was signed, its just the 3 years, which ends after the Grey Cup. C+S signed three 5-year agreeements with Rogers after pulling out of the York deal.
Home Sweet Home
“I am pleased to say that we have an agreement in principal with Rogers Centre on a three-year lease.”, stated Nicholson. “I think it puts behind us some of the issues about the options that have come up in recent years and even the investigation late last year with the BMO field option. Rogers Centre is a place that David Braley believes in and that is important in this deal. We believe it offers the best amenities in the CFL for both the players and the fans”.http://www.argonauts.ca/article/the-year-ahead

[Mulder]

Actually Mulder when Braley "bought" the Argos a new lease agreement was signed, its just the 3 years, which ends after the Grey Cup. C+S signed three 5-year agreeements with Rogers after pulling out of the York deal.http://www.argonauts.ca/article/the-year-ahead

Thanks, I couldn't find the source for it. I thought it was 3 3 year deals

[marcwagz]

I support York!

Much closer to my house.

[T-Bone]

Not a problem, in either case I'm sure at the very least Beeston will give the Argos time to find a facility, but to be honest BMO (cheapest option), York (not crazy about going to a stadium with a track) or a redevelopment of Lamport would be the only options.I also hope Beeston would have the decency to give the Argos enough time to find a new home but how do you know renovating BMO Field is the cheapest option? It may be cheaper for the Argos to add money to an already partially government funded facility for the Pan Am Games then to pay for the entire cost of renovating BMO Field.

[paulwoods13]

Lamport Stadium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamport_Stadium) is not that large it only has a capacity of 9600. It was built in the 70's and would probably need to be torn down and rebuilt to bring it up to spec for the Argos. I agree the best bet would be to get in with the Pan Am Games before the shovels hit the ground on a new facility so it can be properly designed to accommodate the Argos needs.

I mentioned Lamport several months ago and I still think if the right type of facility could be built there, the location is a good fit. It's in an older part of Toronto so has that old-time ambience, but it is becoming a hip area with lots of shops and restraurants. Parking would be a problem but it is very close to the Exhibition grounds so it's possible cars could park there and there might even be a possibility of tailgating. And of course it is walking distance to both streetcar and GO so public transit remains viable, which in my view is vitally important. Obviously most or all of what's there would have to be demolished, but if a build has to happen somewhere, there are far worse places to do it, IMO.

As for the Blue Jays, I would not surprised to see them sell the enticing possibility of a grass field for two or three years before it actually happens. Sports is often about selling hope and if they can keep fans' hope alive for a few extra seasons before the new reality, they would probably try to do so.

[Deerkeeper]

At best, I can see Lamport as a stop gap measure until something decent is built (think of it as Toronto's Empire Field). It is almost like the Air Canada Centre saga at the beginning. MLSE and the original owners of Toronto's Bouncingball team both wanted to build their own buildings and they both would have been built practically next door to each other until saner heads prevailed; saner being MLSE buying the Bouncingball team and the just under construction ACC and shelving their own plans for Union Station. Expand Lamport to a permanent capacity of 20K and you will be able to stand on the top row and look 500 meters to the south and see Toronto's other permanent 20K stadium. To me, that is just stupid. Expand Lamport temporarily to 20k with all the possible amenities with the understanding that it is just for one or two seasons until something proper and decent is build in a proper and decent location. The Argos and Toronto football fans deserve a proper facility and not something thrown together in desperation. No more converted stadiums.

[ArgoGabe22]

I thought BMO is out of the question. It doesn't have the proper dimensions for proper sidelines and according to the article they poured concrete in the endzones.

[T-Bone]

I thought BMO is out of the question. It doesn't have the proper dimensions for proper sidelines and according to the article they poured concrete in the endzones.In it's current state, yes. It would have to be renovated to accommodate the Argos. How much that renovation would cost, we don't know.

[Will]

York University is the closest of potential sites to where I live making it my selfish choice, but there's really nothing around there but the University and industrial lands. The subway being extended to that area would certainly be a benefit. Lamport is an intriguing site for a stadium. Liberty Village is an "up and coming" area as people have said. Parking is a bit of a problem as there are a lot of smaller lots dotting the area, but nothing really big. It is walking distance to the Exhibition as Paul suggested, but it would be somewhat unusual in the sense that your largest source of parking for the stadium isn't really that close to the stadium. I don't think even a quick fix to Lamport would make it ready for the CFL however.

[argotom]

York University is the closest of potential sites to where I live making it my selfish choice, but there's really nothing around there but the University and industrial lands. The subway being extended to that area would certainly be a benefit. Lamport is an intriguing site for a stadium. Liberty Village is an "up and coming" area as people have said. Parking is a bit of a problem as there are a lot of smaller lots dotting the area, but nothing really big. It is walking distance to the Exhibition as Paul suggested, but it would be somewhat unusual in the sense that your largest source of parking for the stadium isn't really that close to the stadium. I don't think even a quick fix to Lamport would make it ready for the CFL however.

Agreed.
Lamport is in such bad state of disrepair on top of which there really is no room to build new or even expand.
Parking is virtually non existant.
Maybe York or try to approach Woodbine again as they previously said no to C & S.

[paulwoods13]

Agreed.
Lamport is in such bad state of disrepair on top of which there really is no room to build new or even expand.
Parking is virtually non existant.
Maybe York or try to approach Woodbine again as they previously said no to C & S.

AT, I'd like to know on what you are basing the idea that there is no room to expand at Lamport. As for parking, it is in plentiful supply just a few blocks away at the Ex, and that could also double as a tailgate site because it is perfectly contained, as tailgate sites needs to be.

[Will]

AT, I'd like to know on what you are basing the idea that there is no room to expand at Lamport. As for parking, it is in plentiful supply just a few blocks away at the Ex, and that could also double as a tailgate site because it is perfectly contained, as tailgate sites needs to be.

The piece of land that Lamport is on isn't very big and is surrounded by roads on four sides. There probably is a little bit of room for expansion though and we'd be looking at a scenario like Hamilton where one stand (the north side) backs right onto the street.

[ArgoRavi]

Isn't it ironic that the Argos are in danger of being turfed out of the stadium that they are largely responsible for (because of the very wet 1982 Grey Cup)?

[Will]

Isn't it ironic that the Argos are in danger of being turfed out of the stadium that they are largely responsible for (because of the very wet 1982 Grey Cup)?

Things have changed Ravi...things have changed...

[Ballstothewall]

So sad, that the oldest football team in north america could be left without a home. This well either be a blessing for the Argos, in getting into a smaller place, or i hate to say it, GONE from the city of Toronto

[1argoholic]

I was going to post what Ravi had already mentioned. I sat in the Scotia Bank section in the endzone at Grey Cup 82. I've sat through two very very pissing wet games and both were at the CNE. It wasn't long after that the talk of a domed stadium started.
I however feel that once the Jays look at the cost of sod and all of the up keep will squash the idea. Why would they want to basically rebuild the field. You need water, some sort of grow lighting. It's a real stupid idea.

[argotom]

I was going to post what Ravi had already mentioned. I sat in the Scotia Bank section in the endzone at Grey Cup 82. I've sat through two very very pissing wet games and both were at the CNE. It wasn't long after that the talk of a domed stadium started.
I however feel that once the Jays look at the cost of sod and all of the up keep will squash the idea. Why would they want to basically rebuild the field. You need water, some sort of grow lighting. It's a real stupid idea.


This however may be a blessing in disguise.
Finally we are shown the door after being treated like a second class citizen.
Enough and let's move on(hopefully)?

[Invader]

Didn't the mayor and/or his brother suggest building a new stadium on the waterfront (with a monorail, giant ferris wheel and a Macy's Warehouse outlet?)

I realize that was for a NFL team. But why not get the ball rolling by building a new CFL stadium, that could potentially be expanded to NFL standards in the future?

This way governments might be more apt to support it...saving the Argos and CFL while investing in the future by possibly attracting a NFL team. I frankly doubt the NFL would ever come to Canada, but his way the Argos could get their new football-specific stadium.

Just look at the money the provincial gov't is pouring into the Ticats new stadium...the Pan-Am soccer games are just an afterthought there. The Argos deserve no less.

[1argoholic]

Why doesn't Rogers just get their heads out of their asses and treat the Argos better. No need for a new stadium. Money doesn't fall from trees. I'm sick of this want want want bs. At some point in my almost 50 years we went from modest homes, one tv, one car that lasted forever to the crazy attitude of most today. There is nothing wrong with Rogers other than the owners. How many friggin stadiums does a city need?

[Invader]

How many friggin stadiums does a city need?
Just one that the Argos could use.

[R.J]

How many friggin stadiums does a city need?Exactly, Thank You! This is the single biggest reason I've been so hell-bent towards bringing up BMO Field, had the City, MLSE, and The Argos worked together and built the York design, not only would this situation never come up, but we would have had an outdoor stadium that holds both soccer and football, allows for community usage, and could actually bring in millions of dollars in rent per year for the City of Toronto, as opposed to the paltry 1.2 million the city has made since BMO opened up. 1 outdoor stadium, 1 indoor stadium and an NHL/NBA arena is more than enough.

[Invader]

Exactly, Thank You! This is the single biggest reason I've been so hell-bent towards bringing up BMO Field, had the City, MLSE, and The Argos worked together and built the York design, not only would this situation never come up, but we would have had an outdoor stadium that holds both soccer and football, allows for community usage, and could actually bring in millions of dollars in rent per year for the City of Toronto, as opposed to the paltry 1.2 million the city has made since BMO opened up. 1 outdoor stadium, 1 indoor stadium and an NHL/NBA arena is more than enough.


The MLSE didn't want to work together with the Argos. I believe they intentionally skewed the design to prevent the Argos from ever playing there. Some may ask: Why would MLSE ever want to do something which could harm the Argos? I'll let the readers contemplate why that could be.

If RC goes with a permanent baseball configuration, the largest stadium in Toronto which could host a football game would be Varsity stadium or perhaps Lamport Field (both under 10,000 seats)? I'm not sure that is befitting of a "world-class" metropolis of 6 million with the 4th largest TV market in North America?

I can see a definite need for a medium-sized 35,000-seat outdoor stadium in Toronto. BMO is not even in the equation as they won't allow any CFL, CIS or high school football game ever to be played there...let alone concerts or trade fairs which could damage their beloved grass field. Toronto could never host another Grey Cup, NFL game or World Cup (BMO is too small) unless a new stadium is built.

[R.J]

Also in terms of Lot size I don't have the actual dimensions, but did find these numbers.
Lamport Stadium Lot Size :11.152 acres
Ivor Wynne Lots size including Brian Timmis Stadium : 14.953 acres
Investors Group Field Lot Size : 21.173 acres

[Will]

Also in terms of Lot size I don't have the actual dimensions, but did find these numbers.
Lamport Stadium Lot Size :11.152 acres
Ivor Wynne Lots size including Brian Timmis Stadium : 14.953 acres
Investors Group Field Lot Size : 21.173 acres

Do they have a figure for Ivor Wynne not including Brian Timmis Stadium? I'd be curious to see what the lot size of the stadium is itself as compared to Lamport's lot size.

[Mulder]

Do they have a figure for Ivor Wynne not including Brian Timmis Stadium? I'd be curious to see what the lot size of the stadium is itself as compared to Lamport's lot size.


Ivor Wynne currently sits on about an 8 Acre lot.

[argonaut11xx]

BMO...its the perfect home for the Argo's....(just change the seat colours to double blue, and blow up some concrete where the end zones belong)

Then that CITY owned stadium can have a PROFESSIONAL sport team as its tenant....

Another "Interm" solution is ship "Empire Stadium" to downsview while the re-construction of BMO is happening...

[1argoholic]

Good thing even when moving back to Ontario I wouldn't be going to every game because a move to BMO should it ever happen is a HUGE step backwards. I remember way to many games with just horrible weather coming off the lake. The reason Skydome was built. We've yapped on and on and on about this. Football played in Nov in the prairies is more comfortable as a fan than along Lake Ontario. Hard to dress and stay warm in 4- 5 degrees with a wind and pissing rain. How long will Torontonians put up with that? They won't. If a new Stadium is ever built it has to be an open design with much coverage as you can get.

[Will]

Ivor Wynne currently sits on about an 8 Acre lot.

Thanks Mulder for looking up that information. I know there is a parking lot immediately south of Lamport Stadium with a bit of grass on either side before a road. The stadium practically backs onto King Street.

[argonaut11xx]

I liked the old Exhibition Stadium...yea it was cold...but bringing in a sleeping bag(sometimes with a bottle of rye inside)...was fun times.

The 1982 Grey Cup was a little wet in the second half, but only cause my seats were in the bleachers, not the grandstand.

That said, your probably right..the youth of today doesnt even "play outside", so this video game generation probably isnt hearty enough to be an "all weather" fan, especially after enjoying the confines of an indoor stadium (Skydome).

The EX grounds,( BMO), is the PERFECT location for me, its just TOO EASY to take the GO train from Ajax...

Downsview, or York...would make me prone to not attending live games as much. Im unsure about Lamport, unless there was a stop very close.

[Will]

Lamport Stadium is walking distance from the Exhibition GO Station.

[1argoholic]

Well to cut costs on a new stadium I can donate my CNE seat back. A few of us went and bought seats when they tore CNE down.

[bluto]

nobody is asking me, but if they did i would want an outdoor stadium in downsview that completely circled the field and had partial overhead cover and a capacity in the 28-33k range with a crapload of parking available.

and when people ask how many stadia does one city need, i don't see the club football teams of England lamenting that they have to build their own grounds or that a city like London will have several huge grounds like Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham, West Ham (all over 30k capacity) and several other smaller ones like Fullham and QPR's. they can do it... do we just suck more than they do?

[Will]

nobody is asking me, but if they did i would want an outdoor stadium in downsview that completely circled the field and had partial overhead cover and a capacity in the 28-33k range with a crapload of parking available.

and when people ask how many stadia does one city need, i don't see the club football teams of England lamenting that they have to build their own grounds or that a city like London will have several huge grounds like Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham, West Ham (all over 30k capacity) and several other smaller ones like Fullham and QPR's. they can do it... do we just suck more than they do?

Well if the stadium is public, it's the will of the people to support a project with taxpayer money and if it's private it's the will of someone to get it done. It's someone stepping up on the behalf of the Argos and saying "this needs to be done, so let's get it done."

[argonaut11xx]

While downsview and york are appealing ...here's my take....

The Argo's NEED to develope a younger fan base 19-29ish...and like it or not...the male sports fan in this demographic likes to drink..so having a ton of parking is great

BUT..the ease of the GO train for fans in the east or west is , to me immeasurable...

I give these young fans alot of credit where drinking and driving is concerned, and i would suggest that if driving was the only option, you just wouldnt get as many going.

[paulwoods13]

I've argued this 100 times and I'm sure my bleatings are tiresome, but what the hell, one more time. Any stadium that is NOT located downtown will mean abandoning a large chunk of the existing and potential fan base. A stadium downtown can be reached by car, subway and GO, and has the added benefit of being right near where tons of people work. A stadium in the suburbs (Downsview, York, Mississauga) will lose at least one, if not two, of these transit options from some directions. Sure, there are fans living west of the city who might like it in Mississauga or Burlington, and fans living north who might like it at Downsview or York, and fans living east who might like it in Scarborough or Pickering. But fans who live west of the city would be far less likely to go to a stadium at York or Downsview, fans east would not go to Mississauga/Burlington, etc. The only location that has relatively comparable access from all directions is in the core of Toronto, i.e. downtown, Lamport, Varsity, etc.

[Will]

I've argued this 100 times and I'm sure my bleatings are tiresome, but what the hell, one more time. Any stadium that is NOT located downtown will mean abandoning a large chunk of the existing and potential fan base. A stadium downtown can be reached by car, subway and GO, and has the added benefit of being right near where tons of people work. A stadium in the suburbs (Downsview, York, Mississauga) will lose at least one, if not two, of these transit options from some directions. Sure, there are fans living west of the city who might like it in Mississauga or Burlington, and fans living north who might like it at Downsview or York, and fans living east who might like it in Scarborough or Pickering. But fans who live west of the city would be far less likely to go to a stadium at York or Downsview, fans east would not go to Mississauga/Burlington, etc. The only location that has relatively comparable access from all directions is in the core of Toronto, i.e. downtown, Lamport, Varsity, etc.

I'm largely coming to the same conclusion as you are Paul. If you follow the argument that most Argo fans live in the "905" area code then your talking about a large geographic area. The 905 area code extends all the way around the Niagara Peninsula up around Hamilton and the western end of the lake and serving Hamilton, Peel and Halton. It then extends north to Newmarket I think, I'm not sure if Bradford is still 905 or whether it's 705. It then covers most of Durham Region I'm pretty sure and extends as far east as Brighton. I actually think it might be as far east as Trenton where Northumberland County borders Hastings County. That's a couple of hours for some people like Mulder who wouldn't be happy to have to drive to home games in Mississauga just like gillthethrill from Stratford wouldn't be happy to have to drive to Scarborough or Pickering for a game. Also, the public transit options make downtown still more viable than Downsview.

Here are some travel distances to potential Argo stadium sites:

Mississauga

Belleville: 2 hours 27 minutes
Bowmanville: 1 hour 13 minutes
Thornhill: 40 minutes
Stratford: 1 hour 40 minutes
St. Catharines: 1 hour 9 minutes
Nanaimo: 1 day 22 hours :)
Barrie: 1 hour 13 minutes

Downsview

Belleville: 2 hours 12 minutes
Bowmanville: 58 minutes
Thornhill: 22 minutes (that's from Markham side, it's quicker for me from Vaughan side)
Stratford: 1 hour 50 minutes
St. Catharines: 1 hour 28 minutes
Barrie: 1 hour 3 minutes

York

Belleville: 2 hours 19 minutes
Bowmanville: 1 hour 5 minutes
Thornhill: 17 minutes (again shorter from where I live)
Stratford: 1 hour 51 minutes
St. Catharines: 1 hour 31 minutes
Barrie: 57 minutes

Downtown (since there are several potential sites I used Skydome)

Belleville: 2 hours 13 minutes
Bowmanville: 1 hour
Thornhill: 31 minutes (I use TTC to get to Argo games anyways)
Stratford: 1 hour 53 minutes
St. Catharines: 1 hour 21 minutes
Barrie: 1 hour 17 minutes

This probably doesn't factor in traffic either, plus that many Argo fans don't can't or don't want to drive to the games.

[ArgoGabe22]

Just got to say I agree Paul downtown is the prime location to accomadate everyone. York U will be brutal.

[Will]

I will also examine each choice by public transit options:

Mississauga

The subway is not extended into Peel Region and the closest station is Kipling. GO Transit has several lines running through Mississauga, but only one of them (Lakeshore) runs on weekends. Further difficulty in assessing Mississauga as an option is that there is no definitive site proposed.

York

The subway will be extended up from Downsview, which gives York a point. There is a GO Transit station that is located in the industrial park east of the university lands, but again that line is not serviced on weekends.

Downsview

Serviced by the subway, but no GO station exists.

Downtown

Accessible by subway as well as Lakeshore line, which is the only regular GO Train line.


So Basically you want to build Investors Group Field.

That's the one disadvantage I suppose to the construction of new stadiums. Were going to get corporate naming rights up the yin yang.

[Mulder]

I'm largely coming to the same conclusion as you are Paul. If you follow the argument that most Argo fans live in the "905" area code then your talking about a large geographic area. The 905 area code extends all the way around the Niagara Peninsula up around Hamilton and the western end of the lake and serving Hamilton, Peel and Halton. It then extends north to Newmarket I think, I'm not sure if Bradford is still 905 or whether it's 705. It then covers most of Durham Region I'm pretty sure and extends as far east as Brighton. I actually think it might be as far east as Trenton where Northumberland County borders Hastings County. That's a couple of hours for some people like Mulder who wouldn't be happy to have to drive to home games in Mississauga just like gillthethrill from Stratford wouldn't be happy to have to drive to Scarborough or Pickering for a game. Also, the public transit options make downtown still more viable than Downsview.

Here are some travel distances to potential Argo stadium sites:

Mississauga

Belleville: 2 hours 27 minutes
Bowmanville: 1 hour 13 minutes
Thornhill: 40 minutes
Stratford: 1 hour 40 minutes
St. Catharines: 1 hour 9 minutes
Nanaimo: 1 day 22 hours :)
Barrie: 1 hour 13 minutes

Downsview

Belleville: 2 hours 12 minutes
Bowmanville: 58 minutes
Thornhill: 22 minutes (that's from Markham side, it's quicker for me from Vaughan side)
Stratford: 1 hour 50 minutes
St. Catharines: 1 hour 28 minutes
Barrie: 1 hour 3 minutes

York

Belleville: 2 hours 19 minutes
Bowmanville: 1 hour 5 minutes
Thornhill: 17 minutes (again shorter from where I live)
Stratford: 1 hour 51 minutes
St. Catharines: 1 hour 31 minutes
Barrie: 57 minutes

Downtown (since there are several potential sites I used Skydome)

Belleville: 2 hours 13 minutes
Bowmanville: 1 hour
Thornhill: 31 minutes (I use TTC to get to Argo games anyways)
Stratford: 1 hour 53 minutes
St. Catharines: 1 hour 21 minutes
Barrie: 1 hour 17 minutes

This probably doesn't factor in traffic either, plus that many Argo fans don't can't or don't want to drive to the games.


Wait, your saying it will be faster to get to Downsview than downtown Toronto! Get it done!

Infact, with Traffic included, I probably would be able to get to York U the fastest from Belleville via 407.

[Will]

Wait, your saying it will be faster to get to Downsview than downtown Toronto! Get it done!

Infact, with Traffic included, I probably would be able to get to York U the fastest from Belleville via 407.

Yeah, by a whopping 1 minute :), but arguably the worst stretch of the 401 is near Downsview.

[Mulder]

I will also examine each choice by public transit options:

Mississauga

The subway is not extended into Peel Region and the closest station is Kipling. GO Transit has several lines running through Mississauga, but only one of them (Lakeshore) runs on weekends. Further difficulty in assessing Mississauga as an option is that there is no definitive site proposed.

York

The subway will be extended up from Downsview, which gives York a point. There is a GO Transit station that is located in the industrial park east of the university lands, but again that line is not serviced on weekends.

Downsview

Serviced by the subway, but no GO station exists.

Downtown

Accessible by subway as well as Lakeshore line, which is the only regular GO Train line.



That's the one disadvantage I suppose to the construction of new stadiums. Were going to get corporate naming rights up the yin yang.


As for Downsview, There is a go Train station being put at at one of the new subway stops!

[Will]

As for Downsview, There is a go Train station being put at at one of the new subway stops!

But, with the exception of the Lakeshore line this station will only be serviced on weekends unless some sort of justification could be made that the provincial government needs to operate a train from downtown to this location to service the new stadium during non-peak hours.

[shayman]

I doubt there's a stadium in North America that has better public transit options than Skydome. Anything else is going to be a major letdown. Even moving to Lamport, man, moving from the stadium with the finest amenities and best location in the league into an extreme bare bones facility like Lamport is going to be a very very tough sell.

[Will]

<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=43.741708,-79.467888&spn=0.035159,0.084543&t=h&z=14&output=embed"></iframe>
<small>View Larger Map (http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=43.741708,-79.467888&spn=0.035159,0.084543&t=h&z=14&source=embed)</small>

This is an aerial shot of Downsview Park. A lot of things have to happen before this would be ready to build a stadium:

(1) Finish the dismantling of what's left of the old CFB Downsview site.
(2) The traffic on Dufferin/Allen Road and Sheppard already stinks now, imagine what'll it be with a 30,000-seat stadium so therefore some way is needed to alleviate the traffic burden in this area.
(3) Not a ton of restaurants/bars in this area, it is heavy industry to the northwest and residential to the east and northeast.

I agree that the site itself probably isn't as non-central as some think though. It may have potential, but in the long-term while the Argos might need something a little more quickly.

[shayman]

4) Find $100,000,000.

[Will]

I doubt there's a stadium in North America that has better public transit options than Skydome. Anything else is going to be a major letdown. Even moving to Lamport, man, moving from the stadium with the finest amenities and best location in the league into an extreme bare bones facility like Lamport is going to be a very very tough sell.

But, what good is a stadium with the finest amenities if your not valued as a tenant?
The Argos might not have a choice in the end.

[bluto]

yes. i believe everyone (including pw13, albeit inadvertently) has beautifully illustrated the wisdom behind the inevitable logical conclusion (that Yours Truly) arrived at a long time ago:

if we're ever lucky enough to win a gov't sweepstakes (like the TiCats/Hamilton did with the PanAm stadium) and we get to build a ground-up new stadium for God's Own Football Club... Downsview is the site in Toronto that has the best combo of a) central location (argofan87 shows us that the commutes are optimum... saying that traffic there is a drawback vs. downtown is just lol), b) available land (that various levels of gov't have no idea what to do with in order to revitalize the area and create new tax revenue for themselves) and c) transit options (highways, ttc and Go) unlike any other.

don't make me ruefully laugh and condescendingly shake my head that there could be a downtown site that has the space enough to provide what sort of parking both the fans (for obvious reasons) and the owners (for revenue) would need.

do i think we'll get our own ground-up stadium? a popsicle in a blast furnace has a better shot...

as to the earlier post from Invader (what precisely are you Invading, by the way?) about me basically wanting what the Bombers have i would have to say: hell yeah i do. who wouldn't??

[Will]

Every commute was based off of Google Maps. None of them factor in traffic as far as I know. In fact, I've sometimes considered the times that Google Maps have given me to be a little longer than reality.

[bluto]

Would have agree bluto, the Bombers will have the "crowned jewel" of outdoor stadiums in Canada next season :), it really looks like an amazing facility.

ah! it was Snow Rogue who asked! sorry about that... i didn't want to hit back-page at that point and lose my post when i went back to check who it was.

but sewiouswy... look at this freaking thing... a podunk town like Winnipeg gets this and our proud franchise may be homeless if Beeston decides to become a garner??

http://bluebombers.io-media.com/

[argotom]

Good thing even when moving back to Ontario I wouldn't be going to every game because a move to BMO should it ever happen is a HUGE step backwards. I remember way to many games with just horrible weather coming off the lake. The reason Skydome was built. We've yapped on and on and on about this. Football played in Nov in the prairies is more comfortable as a fan than along Lake Ontario. Hard to dress and stay warm in 4- 5 degrees with a wind and pissing rain. How long will Torontonians put up with that? They won't. If a new Stadium is ever built it has to be an open design with much coverage as you can get.

Couldn't agree more.
Also, why is there this fixation about everything having to be either downtown or a stone throw away.
Burbs my friends is the answer.

[shayman]

don't make me ruefully laugh and condescendingly shake my head that there could be a downtown site that has the space enough to provide what sort of parking both the fans (for obvious reasons) and the owners (for revenue) would need.


*cough* Ontario Place. *cough*

Hey, former CFL Commissioner John Tory is heading up the panel to figure out what to do with it.

I can dream, can't I?

[shayman]

Also, why is there this fixation about everything having to be either downtown or a stone throw away.

Simple. Because that's where everything is. Last thing we need are more excuses for fans not to come to the games, or media not to cover them, or sponsors not to be interested.

[paulwoods13]

yes. i believe everyone (including pw13, albeit inadvertently) has beautifully illustrated the wisdom behind the inevitable logical conclusion (that Yours Truly) arrived at a long time ago:

if we're ever lucky enough to win a gov't sweepstakes (like the TiCats/Hamilton did with the PanAm stadium) and we get to build a ground-up new stadium for God's Own Football Club... Downsview is the site in Toronto that has the best combo of a) central location (argofan87 shows us that the commutes are optimum... saying that traffic there is a drawback vs. downtown is just lol), b) available land (that various levels of gov't have no idea what to do with in order to revitalize the area and create new tax revenue for themselves) and c) transit options (highways, ttc and Go) unlike any other.

Sorry, Bluto, but no. The "travel times" argofan87 showed are driving times. By car. Regardless of the fact that Downsview is apparently getting a GO station, getting to Downsview by public transit from east or west of the city would be a complete cluster****. I'm spozed to take the GO train from Burlington to Union (50-55 minutes) and then take either the subway or another GO train to Downsview (another 55-60 minutes at best)? Never gonna happen.

Downsview may be just fine if every fan wants to drive in the nightmare that is Toronto traffic, but for those who want to get there by other means, it's hopeless.

[Will]

While this may be of little solace to you Paul, the trip from Union to Downsview via subway is not 55-60 minutes. It's maybe a 1/2 hour.

[T-Bone]

While this may be of little solace to you Paul, the trip from Union to Downsview via subway is not 55-60 minutes. It's maybe a 1/2 hour.I passed Downsview 4 minutes ago. I'm on the 5:05pm Barrie Go Train from Union Station.

[Will]

On the flip side, some would argue that driving downtown is untenable. It obviously falls to what mode of transportation you use to get to the games.

[bluto]

Sorry, Bluto, but no. The "travel times" argofan87 showed are driving times. By car. Regardless of the fact that Downsview is apparently getting a GO station, getting to Downsview by public transit from east or west of the city would be a complete cluster****. I'm spozed to take the GO train from Burlington to Union (50-55 minutes) and then take either the subway or another GO train to Downsview (another 55-60 minutes at best)? Never gonna happen.

Downsview may be just fine if every fan wants to drive in the nightmare that is Toronto traffic, but for those who want to get there by other means, it's hopeless.

of course they're by car. that's how people in the GTA prefer to get around. and saying that getting to a place by public transit when it will be well serviced by the TTC and GO is hopeless is just you putting your own point of view ahead of the facts.

so sorry that the best, compromise, location which puts the stadium directly smack in the geographical middle of the GTA would be less convenient to the folks in Burlington (who skew towards Hamilton anyway)... but for almost everyone else, it is better.

if i were selfish, i'd prefer a GTA East location, but i realize that the GTA is a big place and when i put my finger down on a map in the middle, Downsview is pretty darn close... and it just happens to have a bigass parcel of land that is begging for a positive use. it is easier for many more people to get to. and i'm pretty sure that the latte sippers and new canadians downtown won't put up a fuss about us building at Downsview whereas trying to shoehorn a stadium into a small plot downtown will get everyone and their uncle lined up against us. we ain't getting any favours from any level of gov't... not in this current climate... so trying to go build a stadium in the City proper is going to get bitchslapped by council every time.

anyone looking at this from an unbiased viewpoint has to concede all of that.

[ArgoZ]

Hamilton, Toronto and the government should have got together to build the first floating stadium on Lake Ontario! That way we can please everyone. The Argos could play special games in the East, then in the West the other week. Games could be right beside parking lots located anywhere on the lake, like Ontario Place when it gets demolished.

For Hamilton games, it would be to big to get into the harbour, but we could tow it right beside Confederation Park, where they wanted the stadium anyway! They could also have special Niagara On The Lake, Tiger-Cat games. Imagine the possibliities.

The future is ours.

[bluto]

Hamilton, Toronto and the government should have got together to build the first floating stadium on Lake Ontario! That way we can please everyone. The Argos could play special games in the East, then in the West the other week. Games could be right beside parking lots located anywhere on the lake, like Ontario Place when it gets demolished.

For Hamilton games, it would be to big to get into the harbour, but we could tow it right beside Confederation Park, where they wanted the stadium anyway! They could also have special Niagara On The Lake, Tiger-Cat games. Imagine the possibliities.

The future is ours.

totally screws over the GTA north, imo.

[SubMariner]

The MLSE didn't want to work together with the Argos...
Nope. That might be Bob McCown's revisionist history tale he tells to make his friends Cynamon and Sokolowski sound good, but it just isn't true. There was no one preventing Cynamon and Sokolowski from being involved in building the stadium except themselves.

Cynamon and Sokolowski in 2004 had announced to everyone at a photo-op press conference at York University they were going to build a new Argos stadium there, along with the federal government, provincial government, and Canadian Soccer Association.

http://www.yorku.ca/alumni/alumnimatters/oct-04/newstadium.html

Then a few months later Cynamon and Sokolowski inexplicably walked away from the stadium project and signed a deal to stay as tenants at SkyDome, leaving the others desperately looking for someone to quickly replace them.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/columns/oake/050428.html

It was a few months later in 2005 that MLSE stepped in to replace the Argos as the private partners in the stadium project, accepting basically the same terms that Cynamon and Sokolowski walked away from, paying $20 million plus any overruns on construction costs. If Cynamon and Sokolowski had wanted to be involved, it still could have been a 28,000 seat CFL stadium at Exhibition Place. That was actually the original plan for the stadium announced by the Canadian Soccer Association in July 2003. From the beginning they had wanted the Argos, then in their last days of being owned by Sherwood Schwarz, to be the private partner who would operate the stadium and use it after 2007.

http://www.canadasoccer.com/csa-releases-details-on-proposed-national-soccer-stadium-p147569

Image of July 2003 plan for new stadium at Exhibition Place with seating in CFL configuration:

http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1082258711029182859hFFSDV

It was planned to be where BMO Field is now, except that it would have been larger and extended more to the north, and would have also involved demolishing the Food Building along with the Sports Hall Of Fame Building. But that was before the proposed location was moved to Varsity, then York U., then back to Exhibition Place after C&S dropped out and were replaced by MLSE, which also led them to build the stadium smaller and cheaper without the Argos involved.

[paulwoods13]

of course they're by car. that's how people in the GTA prefer to get around. and saying that getting to a place by public transit when it will be well serviced by the TTC and GO is hopeless is just you putting your own point of view ahead of the facts.

so sorry that the best, compromise, location which puts the stadium directly smack in the geographical middle of the GTA would be less convenient to the folks in Burlington (who skew towards Hamilton anyway)... but for almost everyone else, it is better.

Sorry, but I don't accept that. Just because a location is geographically central does not make it easiest to get to from all directions. It is just as easy, I would argue far easier and faster, for people west of the city (not just Burlington but also Oakville, Milton, Mississauga, Brantford, etc.) to drive downtown than it is to drive to Downsview. I would hazard a guess the same holds true for communities east of the city, albeit the "gap" is smaller because the DVP isn't terribly far from Downsview. (Clearly for those north of the city, the best location would be Downsview.) For those inclined to use public transit, it is far, far easier to get downtown than to Downsview from either east or west. GO runs all-day service from east and west to downtown -- there is no transit service planned from those geographic areas to Downsview. To suggest Downsview will be serviced for public transit is to ignore the fact that it will be serviced only from the south, not from the east or west where a big chunk of Argo fans live.

[1argoholic]

Many Burlington folks are Argo fans not TiCat fans at least the ones I've met during the years. It's time for Rudge to works some magic and get the Rogers folks inline. We DO NOT NEED A NEW STADIUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE NEED ROGERS TO GET THEIR HEADS OUT OF THEIR ASSES AND REALIZE THAT THE CFL IS IT IN TORONTO!!! They need to support The Toronto Argonauts. Amazing how you wouldn't want to piss off the same folks who might actually help fill your stadium for Jays games.
I for one used to be a huge Jays fan.

[paulwoods13]

Many Burlington folks are Argo fans not TiCat fans at least the ones I've met during the years.

Burlington is obviously closer to Hamilton, but in general terms its residents seem to align with Toronto, not Hamilton.

Regardless, the Argos need to play someplace that everyone from anywhere in and around the GTA can get to relatively easily, regardless of which trasportation method they choose. Forcing people to either drive or take an extremely convoluted transit route (e.g. Burlington>Union>Downsview via GO+TTC) would push away fans who have no interest in being part of perpetual gridlock.

[1argoholic]

Thing is that I love the location of Rogers Centre. If a new stadium ever does get built for the Argos it better have some good restaurants and the like around it.
Moving to the Peterborough area will be a strange commute as before all I had to do was hit the Port Credit GO.

[R.J]

If a new stadium ever does get built for the Argos it better have some good restaurants and the like around it. Seems like Lamport/Liberty Village is the perfect fit then.

[bluto]

Seems like Lamport/Liberty Village is the perfect fit then.

only if by "perfect" someone means tiny, no parking, the worst part of the city to drive in and out of and no highway exits

[ArgoRavi]

A good letter to the Star's editor about this stadium situation: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/letters/article/1129630--toronto-argos-are-losing-out

[larz-7]

alot of people here in the peg that i have talked to hate the location of this .its at the south end of the city with no parking off a major route that is very bad for traffic.

[Will]

alot of people here in the peg that i have talked to hate the location of this .its at the south end of the city with no parking off a major route that is very bad for traffic.

Well it was built to also service the University of Manitoba football team as well wasn't it? From what I can see from the satellite photo there is also a golf course immediately N of the site.

[R.J]

Abandoning Ship ? (http://lastwordonsports.com/2012/02/12/abandoning-ship-what-is-happening-to-the-good-ship-argonaut/)

[argotom]

A good letter to the Star's editor about this stadium situation: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/letters/article/1129630--toronto-argos-are-losing-out

Excellent letter and absolutely true.

[AngeloV]

Abandoning Ship ? (http://lastwordonsports.com/2012/02/12/abandoning-ship-what-is-happening-to-the-good-ship-argonaut/)

Good find SnowRogue. If somehow Lamport can be expanded to 25,000 seats, I would love to see this. The area around the stadium in Parkdale, really has gone through an impressive development, and if the Argos would be able to control everything in their own Stadium, it would make them way better business wise. The only issue would then be whether or not Toronto had a stadium to host any future Grey Cups. Having said that, with the Grey Cup being well after the baseball season is over, I guess it could be possible to change to a football configuration and not have ant impact on the baseball team. Maybe playoff games would also be a possibility just like what the Als do.

[R.J]

I have no idea of the validity of this, but figured it might be something worthy of posting up, on Friday during the Prime Time Sports roundtable, the stadium issue came up. Once Someone brought up how the Argos lost their chance with the two stadiums, they made their own bed. McCown quickly came to defense of his buddies C +S and stated that it was Tanenbaum who pulled the rug on the Varsity deal, and it was actually York who "pushed the Argos" out (according to McCown it wasn't the cost of the stadium, but the rent and naming rights going to York that C+S weren't happy about). McCown then brought up that the whole BMO deal was sneaky as it was the CSA who approached MLSE and magically the old Ex site came to fruition, with no intention of either MLSe or the CSA having a multi-purpose stadium. Again obviously this isn't facts, and maybe McCown is just P.O'd, but he is really good friends with both C+S so maybe there is at least a bit of truth in this.

[shayman]

McCown quickly came to defense of his buddies C +S and stated that it was Tanenbaum who pulled the rug on the Varsity deal,


FWIW sources told me that the problem at Varsity was that U of T kept downscaling what they were willing to accept, and eventually told the Argos "16,000 seats, max, and no, you cannot use any of the surrounding streets or land for pregame activities."

That would never have been viable. It's a shame. The Argos held one open practice at varsity when this plan was in the works and it was glorious, dripping with both history and possibilities, and I'm really sad that that plan never happened.

[paulwoods13]

FWIW sources told me that the problem at Varsity was that U of T kept downscaling what they were willing to accept, and eventually told the Argos "16,000 seats, max, and no, you cannot use any of the surrounding streets or land for pregame activities."

That would never have been viable. It's a shame. The Argos held one open practice at varsity when this plan was in the works and it was glorious, dripping with both history and possibilities, and I'm really sad that that plan never happened.

Agreed. Varsity, in that neighbourhood with that skyline, all that history and right on the subway, would have been fantastic.

[bluto]

it's like Toronto's council under Miller in here how everyone hates cars...

and speaking of council, does anyone really think that this council would allow the Argos to build a stdium in their downtown?

just asking.

[AngeloV]

it's like Toronto's council under Miller in here how everyone hates cars...

and speaking of council, does anyone really think that this council would allow the Argos to build a stdium in their downtown?

just asking.

All depends on what type of kick backs go into the project.

[bluto]

All depends on what type of kick backs go into the project.

ain't that the sad, sorry truth... i just have no faith in our team's ability to lay out the type of grease that MLSE obviously did to get BMO greenlighted and then made soccer-only when nobody was paying attention.

[Invader]

CFL stadiums have historically been provided by the local, provincial and federal governments. The Als did chip in a few million for their recent expansion, but the Bombers broke the mold by contributing half the cost of their new stadium (which looks pretty impressive with 33,500 seats). I believe the city is financing the Bombers $90 million loan and will be paid back over several decades through a $2.00 seat fee. Ticats fans will also pay a similar seat fee, as do Lion fans for their new 55,000-seat stadium. This way local governments can get paid back over time. This could be a way for the Argos to finance their new stadium, as long as the City or Province will co-sign the loan.

I believe the Argos need at least 32,000-seats with expansion capacity to 45,000 for Grey Cups. 25,000-seats might work in Montreal but their tickets are expensive and the Als generate tons more sponsorship and broadcasting revenue than the Argos.

Where to build it I'll leave up to the experts...but build it and they will come.

[argolio]

it's like Toronto's council under Miller in here how everyone hates cars...

and speaking of council, does anyone really think that this council would allow the Argos to build a stdium in their downtown?

just asking.If nothing came to fruition under relatively Argo-friendly Miller, then there's no chance under Ford.

[Mulder]

Sorry, Bluto, but no. The "travel times" argofan87 showed are driving times. By car. Regardless of the fact that Downsview is apparently getting a GO station, getting to Downsview by public transit from east or west of the city would be a complete cluster****. I'm spozed to take the GO train from Burlington to Union (50-55 minutes) and then take either the subway or another GO train to Downsview (another 55-60 minutes at best)? Never gonna happen.

Downsview may be just fine if every fan wants to drive in the nightmare that is Toronto traffic, but for those who want to get there by other means, it's hopeless.


Sorry, but I don't accept that. Just because a location is geographically central does not make it easiest to get to from all directions. It is just as easy, I would argue far easier and faster, for people west of the city (not just Burlington but also Oakville, Milton, Mississauga, Brantford, etc.) to drive downtown than it is to drive to Downsview. I would hazard a guess the same holds true for communities east of the city, albeit the "gap" is smaller because the DVP isn't terribly far from Downsview. (Clearly for those north of the city, the best location would be Downsview.) For those inclined to use public transit, it is far, far easier to get downtown than to Downsview from either east or west. GO runs all-day service from east and west to downtown -- there is no transit service planned from those geographic areas to Downsview. To suggest Downsview will be serviced for public transit is to ignore the fact that it will be serviced only from the south, not from the east or west where a big chunk of Argo fans live.


Burlington is obviously closer to Hamilton, but in general terms its residents seem to align with Toronto, not Hamilton.

Regardless, the Argos need to play someplace that everyone from anywhere in and around the GTA can get to relatively easily, regardless of which trasportation method they choose. Forcing people to either drive or take an extremely convoluted transit route (e.g. Burlington>Union>Downsview via GO+TTC) would push away fans who have no interest in being part of perpetual gridlock.


The thing is Paul, While a Downtown location is ideal. It's obvious it doesn't work. Rogers Centre isn't exactly on any transit lines. 1km walk from Union Station, right now with the skywalk closed, 1.4km.

Compare that to Edmonton (260m)
Compare that to Calgary (300m)
Compare that to BC Place (400m)

Coupled that in with the longest commute time in North America. And 75% of people drive to work in this city as well. You say that the potential of downtown is greater, but I disagree. Sure 500,000 people work downtown Toronto. But as of right now, way less than 2% of that number are staying downtown for a week-night Argo game, the Argos have failed to tap that market. Or that market just doesn't care.

What type of people are we attracting? Argo's have been targeting families to come down. Bring their kids, and attempt to Market themselves as the cheapest sports event in the city. Sorry, Toronto has the longest commute time in North America. No one wants to fight traffic home, only to pick up their kids and head back downtown. By that same token, why does it sometimes take longer to take the Go Train home than driving during rush hour? Toronto's transit system is terrible.

Are people coming from Burlington in droves because of the Go Train? No.
Are people coming from Oshawa in droves because of the Go Train? No.


Your last comment about "perpetual gridlock" Save for a few areas, Toronto's Gridlock starts to free-up just after 6. From Experience, I used to drive cross 401, every day. I would work that OT if needed after 5 to get to 6. Even during the Younge Street/401 and that never ending Bridge reconstruction, even during Rush hour, crossing the 401 is not THAT bad. It's getting out of the downtown core and going North that is the issue.
Getting to Downsview from the east end is not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. I drive this route every game coming from Belleville.

I get off work at 4:00. I hit Oshawa little more than an hour later. I encounter no major traffic issues until DVP heading downtown at about 5:30-5:40. Even then, Express far left is still moving along at 110-120 to well past Bayview. From there going the last 20km or so takes 30-40 minutes. And most of that is 401 to Eglinton. I suspect from past experience at the time, getting to downsview would be about 20 minutes-30 minutes max. And not in Stop and go traffic.

York? Faster. I would take 407 (which I have done before) And when they make the link to 401. Near Oshawa. Bam.
190 KM from Belleville to York? I could do in an hour and a half /40 minutes. While the 185km to downtown does take 2 hours simply because of DVP.

I suspect coming from Mississauga way would be about the same. If not less, because of all the highway options. Again, It's the north/south routes that are the issue in Toronto, not the east/west routes.

[argonaut11xx]

there MUST be a viable transit option from both the east and west....too many fans will drink...and if its a car only access...those folks will stay home...

and like it or not..the YOUNG MALE fan..that the Argo's need...tend to drink ...

one beer will put most over the (stupid) .05 rule....

[1argoholic]

I used to drive in from Port Credit or take the GO. Problem with driving was the bloody construction. With no construction it would be about 20 minutes. GO was much better but the trains didn't run late enough if you wanted to stay downtown.
On our trip out for three weeks in the summer every day we heard on the news about GTA hwy's running at max and that it was over the cridical stage. I don't know what the answer is but if you want to get to a game no matter where the stadium is you'll get to a game.

[paulwoods13]

Some folks prefer a stadium reachable by both car and transit from all directions, and some prefer a stadium reachable mostly by car. I'm obviously in the former camp. Aside from the fact that I don't have any desire to drive to Downsview, period, I also have no desire to take the subway from downtown to Downsview for a weeknight game, then subway back downtown, then GO train home. Putting a stadium at Downsview (or York) would make it very difficult for people who work downtown and live in the suburbs to attend any game played on a weeknight. About 50-60% of CFL games are played on Thursday and Friday nights, I imagine.

The Argos have had a stadium in the core area and close to transit (and I consider a 1-km walk to be very close to transit) since they played at Varsity. They have never had a stadium in the suburbs. People have been able to get to games at RC and CNE for decades from all directions. There is no evidence I'm aware of that moving to Downsview would cause a lot of people who aren't attending now to start attending. But I think it is extremely likely that some who attend now would stop attending if the stadium was moved somewhere that requires either driving on Toronto's congested highways (and they are certainlty congested, regardless of how gridlock is defined) or taking more than one public transit vehicle. Maybe the number who would stop going is minuscule, maybe not. But can the Argos afford to drive away any of their existing fanbase?

There is also the issue that building stadiums in the suburbs is precisely the opposite of what has been shown to work in the past two decades. Stadiums are being built downtown (see Detroit and Cleveland as two examples, there are many others) for many reasons -- including political desires to revitalize downtown areas, something Toronto really doesn't need. I'd love to see a study showing financial and social impact of stadiums built in the suburbs vs. those built in the core, if such a thing exists. But my gut instinct is telling me that building a stadium in the middle of suburbia will soon look as anachronistic as SkyDome (a gigantic dome) looked as soon as Camden Yards (a charming old-school faclity) went up.

Of course this is all laughably moot until someone coms along with an actual concrete proposal for a new facility, and the dollars to pay for it.

[Mulder]

Some folks prefer a stadium reachable by both car and transit from all directions, and some prefer a stadium reachable mostly by car. I'm obviously in the former camp. Aside from the fact that I don't have any desire to drive to Downsview, period, I also have no desire to take the subway from downtown to Downsview for a weeknight game, then subway back downtown, then GO train home. Putting a stadium at Downsview (or York) would make it very difficult for people who work downtown and live in the suburbs to attend any game played on a weeknight. About 50-60% of CFL games are played on Thursday and Friday nights, I imagine.

The Argos have had a stadium in the core area and close to transit (and I consider a 1-km walk to be very close to transit) since they played at Varsity. They have never had a stadium in the suburbs. People have been able to get to games at RC and CNE for decades from all directions. There is no evidence I'm aware of that moving to Downsview would cause a lot of people who aren't attending now to start attending. But I think it is extremely likely that some who attend now would stop attending if the stadium was moved somewhere that requires either driving on Toronto's congested highways (and they are certainlty congested, regardless of how gridlock is defined) or taking more than one public transit vehicle. Maybe the number who would stop going is minuscule, maybe not. But can the Argos afford to drive away any of their existing fanbase?

There is also the issue that building stadiums in the suburbs is precisely the opposite of what has been shown to work in the past two decades. Stadiums are being built downtown (see Detroit and Cleveland as two examples, there are many others) for many reasons -- including political desires to revitalize downtown areas, something Toronto really doesn't need. I'd love to see a study showing financial and social impact of stadiums built in the suburbs vs. those built in the core, if such a thing exists. But my gut instinct is telling me that building a stadium in the middle of suburbia will soon look as anachronistic as SkyDome (a gigantic dome) looked as soon as Camden Yards (a charming old-school faclity) went up.

Of course this is all laughably moot until someone coms along with an actual concrete proposal for a new facility, and the dollars to pay for it.


So are we basing the stadium debate simply because you have no desire to drive to Downsview or York? How would it make it more difficult for people who live in the suburbs? If anything, it's easier. I provided with real world scenario coming from way outside the suburbs. Driving During rush hour and just after rush hour. Now imagine if those poor people had to drive from downtown after work to the burbs to pick up their families (who the Argos have been targeting) Only to get back in the car and spend another hour fighting the north/south traffic? Yikes. Stats say 75% people drive in T.O.

The Irony of your "lack of public transit" argument. Is that there is a Go Bus that will take you from right Burlington to York U. In 10 minutes more time than the train to downtown. The actual figure last season for Thursday/Friday games was 44%.

There is no facts either way that a stadium at York or downsview will or won't draw more. You can't make a statement like that. There is no proof either way. Obviously no one is attending games now. The difference is again, 75% drive in the city. Regardless on how "congested" the highway system is. Come 6:00-6:30. Only 2 routes are still clogged. And those routes go Downtown. The question has always been about the experience, can the Argo's provide a better experience at York/Downsview? My opinion about your "Driving away fan base" comment. Check attendance last season, look at the stands. How many more are we going to "drive away" by staying downtown? If you don't like or stop going to your teams favourite games simply because you don't like the stadium location, then you shouldn't be a fan in the first place.

Canada and the US are two COMPLETELY different countries. There is very few Canadian cities that don't have a vibrate downtown. While you mention Detroit and Cleveland, who's downtowns are completely dead from what I've heard. As are some other examples of downtown stadiums. I'm sad you invoked the "U.S.A. Has done this and it worked" route. If we want to get technical. How many CFL stadiums are located "Downtown"

Quick answer is 2. You could include Montreal 3. Which of these stadiums have the higher attendance? I'll be damned. Kind of smack in the middle with Vancouver coming back at home (B.C. Place).
The last 5 NFL stadiums?

Jets/Giants ? Outside downtown
Cowboy Stadium? Outside downtown
Colts? Downtown
Cardinals? Not even close to downtown
Eagles? Not downtown either!



http://www.toronto.ca/planning/pdf/living_downtown_nov1.pdf
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/stats/infosheets/pdf/Downtown.pdf

[1argoholic]

Who says we're getting a new stadium?

[paulwoods13]

Obviously I'm not swaying some folks, nor did I expect to. Those who believe a stadium in the suburbs would be better than a stadium downtown will continue to believe that, just as those who believe a stadium downtown would be better will continue. I'm in the latter camp, obviously. Anyone who feels that means I "shouldn't be a fan in the first place" is of course entitled to their opinion.

[bluto]

So are we basing the stadium debate simply because you have no desire to drive to Downsview or York?

that's pretty much all i take from his posts.


Who says we're getting a new stadium?

nobody. and therein lies the tragedy.

[argotom]

I think it's high time for the Argos and especially since Mr. Braley was familiar with, to put a plan in effect similar to the temporary design and stadium in Vancouver erected for $17M that we heard the price to be?
I know some of us mentioned in jest how instead of taking it apart and disposing, why not ship it out east for the Argos?
If so, yes count me in for a location that is car friendly and in close proximity to all of the major highways in the city.
Also, why not approach the Woodbine racetrack conglomerate again and try to convince them to participate on their land?

[AngeloV]

I think it's high time for the Argos and especially since Mr. Braley was familiar with, to put a plan in effect similar to the temporary design and stadium in Vancouver erected for $17M that we heard the price to be?
I know some of us mentioned in jest how instead of taking it apart and disposing, why not ship it out east for the Argos?
If so, yes count me in for a location that is car friendly and in close proximity to all of the major highways in the city.
Also, why not approach the Woodbine racetrack conglomerate again and try to convince them to participate on their land?

I want nothing to do with Woodbine. My company has in the past had group nights out at Woodbine. On a regular night, with absolutely nothing but the races going on, the traffic there is absolutely brutal. Try adding in 20-25k for a football game, and it might take 2 hours to get there from wherever you are coming from. Weeknight games there would keep a lot of people away, IMO

[1argoholic]

I really believe that a stadium should be built underground north of the city in an empty field with good access to all major hwy's. That way they could have killer tailgating and camping. If you wanted to get hammered you could just camp out for the night. You just park on the field above the stadium. How difficult could this be to achieve. haha.

[Ron]

Until they build it ... no one will come

[argonaut11xx]

I really believe that a stadium should be built underground north of the city in an empty field with good access to all major hwy's. That way they could have killer tailgating and camping. If you wanted to get hammered you could just camp out for the night. You just park on the field above the stadium. How difficult could this be to achieve. haha.

Hmmmm..reminds me of the old days when we used to go camping at Trudeau park in Tweed....ok....im all for this underground concept..."hiccup"

[R.J]

Paul Beeston talks a bit about the Rogers Centre grass situation on "Prime Time Sports". http://www.fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20120214_181739_4452

[argolio]

I think this talk about grass at the Dome is all for show, but a decade or so down the line the Jays & Rogers will make some kind of stadium play. The question is whether they'll try to renovate the Dome or build a new stadium elsewhere.

[Mulder]

Paul Beeston talks a bit about the Rogers Centre grass situation on "Prime Time Sports". http://www.fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20120214_181739_4452

Here's what I get from this Interview.

Grass won't happen, Grass won't happen, grass might happen. Paul whats the one thing you would change about Rogers Centre? Grass.

Which pretty much means it's in the works, probably in the 2-5 year plan.

[matthew]

I agree. This may force the hand of the argos and give them the incentive to act now. Desperate times call for desperate measures. In this case, maybe accelerating the cause for a new facility somewhere be it a new standalone or piggy backing on a Pan-Am project.

This could be our U2 concert moment. I say seize it. I'd be happy to donate whatever I could to make it happen, like they are doing in Quebec City, to keep CFL football alive in Toronto. Its important to me and I am prepared to create that legacy.

And another thing, why am I listed as a junior member on this site. I have been here for alot longer than Jan 2012??? What the!!

[Mulder]

And another thing, why am I listed as a junior member on this site. I have been here for alot longer than Jan 2012??? What the!!

Goes by post count.

[1argoholic]

Beeston is a TOOL!!!!!!

[Will]

Where is that stadium located?

[1argoholic]

It's nice to dream. haha

[R.J]

Not to mention renderings for an open air stadium in Regina.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ci-rtLzmR08/TteDy2p0OTI/AAAAAAAAQFw/_ESW-qkBXpE/s1600/mosaicstadium2qe2.jpg

[ArgoRavi]

Not to mention renderings for an open air stadium in Regina.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ci-rtLzmR08/TteDy2p0OTI/AAAAAAAAQFw/_ESW-qkBXpE/s1600/mosaicstadium2qe2.jpg

I wouldn't be surprised if Toronto gets a new stadium before Regina does. I suspect that the one in Regina is a very long way off.

[Invader]

I'd have to agree with Snowrogue that the Riders will get a new stadium fairly soon. Their current park is really outdated and the city and province will bend over backwards to help finance a new stadium...that's just good politics in Sask.

In Toronto, there is little political groundswell to build the Argos a new stadium, especially now with the federal and provincial deficit slashing. That doesn't mean a new Argodome is impossible, but its probably a few years off. I frankly doubt Rogers will be planting grass in Skydome anytime soon, but if they choose to, this would get the ball rolling on a medium-sized outdoor stadium for the Argos.

[ArgoRavi]

I'd have to agree with Snowrogue that the Riders will get a new stadium fairly soon. Their current park is really outdated and the city and province will bend over backwards to help finance a new stadium...that's just good politics in Sask.

This is where I disagree. I don't think that the political will is there in Saskatchewan to finance a new stadium. I guess time will tell but I am not optimistic that the Riders will get a new stadium any time soon.

[argolio]

This is where I disagree. I don't think that the political will is there in Saskatchewan to finance a new stadium. I guess time will tell but I am not optimistic that the Riders will get a new stadium any time soon.There is massive support for a new stadium there, but I think the provincial government has been downplaying hopes a bit because they don't want to finance a domed stadium.

[argonaut11xx]

Braley plans to rebuild the Argo's then sell them (obviously for a profit)...so would it not be more attractive if the Argo's posessed at least the land, and a deal for a new stadium? If the Argo's became an "asset based" team, meaning they owned property, etc. Wouldnt that make them more viable?

[argolio]

Easier said than done. Land costs money, especially in a prime location.

[Mulder]

We play on the road 3 weeks in the season where one of those weeks the dome is available (end of September) Which I find odd.

What if the Jay's plan to throw grass in the dome as a trial for the last month of the season? (just throwing it out there)

[Will]

How would they be able to put grass if there are extensive renovations that would need to take place in order for them to do so?

[Mulder]

How would they be able to put grass if there are extensive renovations that would need to take place in order for them to do so?

Install Sod.

[argolio]

If they're going to install grass, they're going to do it full-out and not on some trial basis.

[R.J]

The TFC vs. Galaxy game is being played on grass, why wouldn't the Jays try it out for a month. Could be a could trial run, let them see the up keep costs, revenues lost etc, but I highly doubt it will happen. Rogers generates too much money on other events for them to want to lose anything. Until a major renovation or new building comes for the Jays the Argos aren't going anywhere.

[shayman]

I doubt MLB would allow you to switch surfaces part way through the season.

[1argoholic]

You can't just lay down sod for a month to try. It is a living thing that requires plenty of water and light. Beeston open a huge can of crap with his comment. They need to a crap load of consctruction to allow sod to be put down I'm sure they don't have proper drainage.

[T-Bone]

The TFC vs. Galaxy game is being played on grassActually it's not. They're playing it on the Rogers Centre turf.

[R.J]

Actually it's not. They're playing it on the Rogers Centre turf.
Oh really, I thought I read somewhere that they were putting in grass. That kind of sucks as turf seems to make the ball bounce more than on grass.

[T-Bone]

Oh really, I thought I read somewhere that they were putting in grass. That kind of sucks as turf seems to make the ball bounce more than on grass.Though the turf isn't ideal the team trains on both surfaces. They looked in to getting sod but decided against it due to cost. They would have had to ship it up from the States due to the winter. If it was summer they would have probably done it because they could have gotten the sod from Ontario which would be a lot cheaper.

[R.J]

While sitting at the Rock game, I started thinking about the Argos stadium situation and realized that the Toronto Rock have a similar situation in which they don't own the facility, the owners of the facilities occupy the same amount of dates as the Bluejays do (82 Leafs & Raps, 81 for the Jays) and the ACC has more dates filled then the Skydome does, and yet the Rock still have a pretty solid schedule year in year out. Wonder why Rogers has to be such a pain to the Argos, yet MLSE seems pretty reasonable o the Rock even with Bill and Brad Waters owning the team anymore. James Dawick currently owns the team btw.

[Mulder]

While sitting at the Rock game, I started thinking about the Argos stadium situation and realized that the Toronto Rock have a similar situation in which they don't own the facility, the owners of the facilities occupy the same amount of dates as the Bluejays do (82 Leafs & Raps, 81 for the Jays) and the ACC has more dates filled then the Skydome does, and yet the Rock still have a pretty solid schedule year in year out. Wonder why Rogers has to be such a pain to the Argos, yet MLSE seems pretty reasonable o the Rock even with Bill and Brad Waters owning the team anymore. James Dawick currently owns the team btw.

With the ACC's new movable seating it takes about 30-45 minutes to convert from basketball to hockey. Or so I've heard.

They have talked about how it's possible to have a raptors game at 1pm, and a leafs game at 7pm

[R.J]

With the ACC's new movable seating it takes about 30-45 minutes to convert from basketball to hockey. Or so I've heard.

They have talked about how it's possible to have a raptors game at 1pm, and a leafs game at 7pmThat I knew already and it takes Rogers 48 hours to convert from baseball to football, which is why I still have a bit of trouble understanding why the Argos still got horrible dates. The ACC has a lot of concerts/events on Friday and Saturday nights (when NLL is usually played) and MLSE still allows a pretty decent schedule for the Rock. I could understand 2-3 bad dates for the Argos, but this years as well as last years schedules have been horrible.

[Will]

That I knew already and it takes Rogers 48 hours to convert from baseball to football, which is why I still have a bit of trouble understanding why the Argos still got horrible dates. The ACC has a lot of concerts/events on Friday and Saturday nights (when NLL is usually played) and MLSE still allows a pretty decent schedule for the Rock. I could understand 2-3 bad dates for the Argos, but this years as well as last years schedules have been horrible.

Rogers doesn't value the Argos as a tenant. That's a conclusion that can be drawn from your statement.

[R.J]

A tweet I figured would be interesting for some to see.
steve milton ‏ @miltonatthespec
Contrary to popular belief the #Argos ARE in serious negotiations for a new lease at Rogers Centre. 3-5 yrs, and expect to get it done. #CFL

[argolio]

steve milton ‏ @miltonatthespec
Contrary to popular belief the #Argos ARE in serious negotiations for a new lease at Rogers Centre. 3-5 yrs, and expect to get it done. #CFL Even with legitimate complaints about scheduling, that's great news considering the team has no other alternative at this point in time.

[1argoholic]

It's great news and perhaps if the CFL and whoever is the owner of The Argos down the road can look at a new venue. I'd have no problem if the folks at Rogers started treated the Argos with some respect.

[Argoscflguy]

blaaaaa blaaaaa blaaaa! i think beeston is just talking smack!!!!!!!!!!!! if your gonna do it then do it already!? this is what i think is for the argos to build their own stadium and not having to deal with all this !"%$/? crap! and maybe somewhere where we can all tailgate ( bbq, beer)Arrrrgooooossssssssssssssssssss!!

[argotom]

I wonder where the truth is here, grass versus new lease?

[UncleFester]

If we can believe Chris Rudge that he is not worried about this issue at this time then I would think that the new lease is closer to the truth than grass is. IMO Beeston and the Jays are doing some PR work to appease their season seat holders who want grass and that's all this is. They'll come out and say they tried but it's just not doable at RC. And then Rogers and the Jays will begin to trumpet what they really really really want.....a new open air baseball only stadium with grass with taxpayers paying most of the bill. I believe that this is where this is ultimately going. As to what happens to RC down the road only Rogers knows this but with the demise of the Bills in T.O. thing maybe, just maybe they are ready to give up on the NFL dream and RC begins to take on a new light in the company's eyes.

[Will]

I found an article from early 1987 in the Star. It turns out that this isn't the first discussion about natural grass at the Skydome. I'll try to post some of it later.

[R.J]

Unless money starts falling from the sky I don't see this happening for another 30 plus years, but here's a fantasy map of the TTC "expansion".
http://torontoist.com/attachments/toronto_boy/2006_5_31ttcfuture.jpg

Large scale view : http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/maps/miguelsyyap/ttcV5.png

[argolio]

That's not an official TTC map, but something like that might take closer to 50 years than 30 to build under the current funding system (begging Queen's Park for money).

For a massive and accelerated subway expansion, Toronto would need a guaranteed stream of revenues that could only come from a combination of road tolls, gas taxes, parking fees, and/or sales tax increases. Our mayor says he wants more subways (and so do most Torontonians) but he's unwilling to add the required "gravy" to pay for them. He's all talk and no action.

[argolio]

There are dozens of fantasy maps floating around the internet, and many are similar to that.

As for the fees and taxes (which I think will happen eventually), the point is that Ford has trapped himself into an ideological corner. He's all for subways and wants to defeat the LRT plan but he can't bring himself to be for the means to pay for subways. So unless he compromises, he'll lose.

[Mulder]

BUILD MORE ROADS...i find it shameful and offensive that drivers pay huge massive fee's, and a good portion of that money go's elsewhere. Our roads are in terrible condition.
As for the LRT, that thing is absolutley disgusting, dirty, gross, the subways are pristime compared to the scarboro lrt.
We prefer to drive, however because we do like to drink and party, we use the TTC, and GO alot.
Whatever they choose, make the folks who ride it PAY for it...3 bucks is still really cheap for a token, make it 5 bucks, let all the welfare, left wing folks freak out, and "poof" the revue's are more in line with reality. GO is a fare (hehe) price, yes its more expensive, but its also cleaner, and not bleeding red ink.

As for grass in the dome..its never going to happen

If you would like to get into an LRT Vs Subway Vs Roads debate i'd be happy to move the last 2 posts and Start a thread.

[R.J]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Stephen Brunt said on <a href="https://twitter.com/Sportsnet">@sportsnet</a> to not hold your breath on natural grass ever being in Rogers Centre. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a></p>&mdash; CFL News (@CFL_News) <a href="https://twitter.com/CFL_News/status/663517985546616837">November 9, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Jays having natural grass at Rogers Centre was primary excuse used to force <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> out of Rogers Centre. May never come 2 B. Surprised? <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a></p>&mdash; CFL News (@CFL_News) <a href="https://twitter.com/CFL_News/status/663518395799879682">November 9, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&quot;For grass to be ready in time for the 2018 season, Lyons says, it would need to be planted by the fall of 2015.&quot; As we know, didn't happen.</p>&mdash; CFL News (@CFL_News) <a href="https://twitter.com/CFL_News/status/663526421151764481">November 9, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I'm not aware that Rogers says they've officially given up on growing grass. Brunt's comment telling though. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a> <a href="https://t.co/YiSvRkPQnv">https://t.co/YiSvRkPQnv</a></p>&mdash; CFL News (@CFL_News) <a href="https://twitter.com/CFL_News/status/663526893271035904">November 9, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/CFL_News">@CFL_News</a> they are going with dirt infield next year but I believe they already mentioned they ar giving up on grass</p>&mdash; On Your Marc, Yo! (@TOBenfica) <a href="https://twitter.com/TOBenfica/status/663523620228960257">November 9, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

["Issues"Mcgee]

Little do those scumbags know their decision to kick the Argos out of the Dome has saved the franchise.

[1argoholic]

I posted in another topic about seeing Brunt tell Brad Faye those exact words. Pissed me off and something I stated when I first heard the news about them wanting grass. It would be a total bitch to put and maintain sod in that joint. No drainage, lighting, climate to name a few issues. The place wasn't built to just turf sod down. These guys who just yap off about sod without putting any thought into the process. I think that now they realize that it could be a dream or that it could be overly difficult to accomplish in an off season. Maybe they'll want to play at BMO while the dome gets sod. hahahaha. Screw them!!!!

[R.J]

Grass doesn't seem to be a "priority".
http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/mlb/toronto-blue-jays-mark-shapiro-says-grass-at-rogers-centre-is-not-a-top-priority
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/shapiro-says-blue-jays-feel-like-team-capable-of-winning-2016-world-series/article27815643/

[1argoholic]

Rogers are SCUM!!!! Isn't that the main reason we got the boot?

I remember being called out by Mulder and a few others as if I knew squat about the implications of sod at the dome. I'm only an college educated landscaper who's been in the field for 36 years. The costs would be so extreme and it would take longer then a few weeks to install. Then the upkeep would be huge costs. I hate when people like Beeston yap off about issues in which they have no clue. I've met many so called professional people in very high paying very educated fields who couldn't tell a Maple from a White Birch, or shit from clay.

[Scooter McCray]

It was just an excuse to "turf" the Argos. Best thing that could ever happen. Let Rogers remodel their stadium with all of the cost overruns. The Cdn dollar slides by the day. Good luck keeping players and luring others to play here.

[gilthethrill]

Rogers are SCUM!!!! Isn't that the main reason we got the boot?

I remember being called out by Mulder and a few others as if I knew squat about the implications of sod at the dome. I'm only an college educated landscaper who's been in the field for 36 years. The costs would be so extreme and it would take longer then a few weeks to install. Then the upkeep would be huge costs. I hate when people like Beeston yap off about issues in which they have no clue. I've met many so called professional people in very high paying very educated fields who couldn't tell a Maple from a White Birch, or shit from clay.

You were skeptical about grass being installed in RC right from the start....you were dead on!!! Never doubted your expert opinion. But I thought not having natural grass there was the reason (lame excuse) that the Jays had not contended for years?

[AngeloV]

Rogers are SCUM!!!! Isn't that the main reason we got the boot?

I remember being called out by Mulder and a few others as if I knew squat about the implications of sod at the dome. I'm only an college educated landscaper who's been in the field for 36 years. The costs would be so extreme and it would take longer then a few weeks to install. Then the upkeep would be huge costs. I hate when people like Beeston yap off about issues in which they have no clue. I've met many so called professional people in very high paying very educated fields who couldn't tell a Maple from a White Birch, or shit from clay.

Oh my brother....TESTIFY!!!

[Ron]

The new regime throwing the old regime under the bus. Beeston said many things about grass. But it was clear the idea for grass was coming from corporate. Beeston was to go.the one who quoted in public the massive costs it would take to convert the dome and with a smile he'd say they were looking strongly into it. Beeston also stated that he was a fan of the Argos and he'd never let the Argos be screwed over as long as he was there. Screwed over in the sense that Rogers could have just not renewed any leases when the team had zero options causing the folding/moving of the club.

[Scooter McCray]

[QUOTE=Ron;76023]The new regime throwing the old regime under the bus. Beeston said many things about grass. But it was clear the idea for grass was coming from corporate. Beeston was to go.the one who quoted in public the massive costs it would take to convert the dome and with a smile he'd say they were looking strongly into it. Beeston also stated that he was a fan of the Argos and he'd never let the Argos be screwed over as long as he was there. Screwed over in the sense that Rogers could have just not renewed any leases when the team had zero options causing the folding/moving of the club.[/QUOTE
Beeston has supported the Argos and CFL. He has been candidate for CFL commissioner in past too. I think when Cohon was running but the Jays begged him to comeback around that time too. With Pelley at Rogers, Argos have had friends there. I guess they could have been out on the street without that support.

[1argoholic]

The Argonauts just keep on trucking through like they're are on a long expedition across a vast expanse of land. There are hills, mountains, rivers, mud and muck but they keep on trucking. They are survivors.
The Jays just over think or under think and have vast fluctuations in thought processes and mentally underachieve. If this was the Amazing Race the Argonauts would win with ease. Pretty heavy shite from me. haha.

[ArgoRavi]

Beeston has supported the Argos and CFL. He has been candidate for CFL commissioner in past too. I think when Cohon was running but the Jays begged him to comeback around that time too. With Pelley at Rogers, Argos have had friends there. I guess they could have been out on the street without that support.

Yeah, with friends like those, who needs enemies.

[R.J]

Brunt defends Shapiro and the non prioritizing of grass.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/why-blaming-shapiro-for-price-grass-misses-the-point/

[AngeloV]

Brunt defends Shapiro and the non prioritizing of grass.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/why-blaming-shapiro-for-price-grass-misses-the-point/

Brunt defending a corporate hire? Shocking!!