Best dual-threat Quarterback not named Damon Allen?

[KCargosfan]

Thoughts? Tracy Ham?

[Midnight Blue]

Thoughts? Tracy Ham?


Ricky Ray has the ability to throw both long, and short passes.

And he can run, if his life absolutely depends on it.


And if the O-Line can protect him, he can bake a cake, too.



Ka' Pla !

[ArgoRavi]

Thoughts? Tracy Ham?

Condredge Holloway immediately comes to mind but what about Doug Flutie? BTW, I would say that both Holloway and Flutie were better than Allen.

[1argoholic]

Flutie was pretty amazing at both. Damon was a great runner. Dunigan was great but he'd try to take tacklers on like a fullback.

[jerrym]

I would argue Doug Flutie. His passing for 58,179 yards speaks for itself but he also gained 6,759 yards rushing in the USFL, CFL and NFL (4,660 in the CFL). Ham was a somewhat better runner but nowhere near the passer as Flutie. Ham had a 54% completion rate while Flutie had a 61.4% completion rate in the CFL. Ham passed for 40,534 yards and rushed for 8043 yards in the CFL. Ham passed for more than 4,000 yards three times in a 13 year CFL career and his highest passing yardage was 4,366. Flutie passed for more than 5,000 yards six times in an eight year CFL career and for more than 6,000 yards twice, missing out on a third time by only 55 yards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Flutie
http://www.totalfootballstats.com/PlayerQB.asp?id=1205628

[Argo57]

Condredge Holloway and Doug Flutie by a country mile over Damon Allen.

[Will]

Tracy Ham's passing stats weren't spectacular. Not horrible enough to warrant him not being a starter in the CFL for 10+ years, but throughout most of his time in Edmonton his completion % wasn't much better than 50% although I believe it improved slightly when he went to Baltimore and Montreal. He could run to be certain and is along with Kerry Joseph and Damon Allen the only QB's to rush for 1000 yards. I would agree that Flutie is probably one of the best because he could do both very effectively.

[AngeloV]

Travis Lulay: He is also a good punter. :D

[AngeloV]

Tracy Ham's passing stats weren't spectacular. Not horrible enough to warrant him not being a starter in the CFL for 10+ years, but throughout most of his time in Edmonton his completion % wasn't much better than 50% although I believe it improved slightly when he went to Baltimore and Montreal. He could run to be certain and is along with Kerry Joseph and Damon Allen the only QB's to rush for 1000 yards. I would agree that Flutie is probably one of the best because he could do both very effectively.

In Ham's defence, the CFL game was a little different when he was in Edmonton. Completion % in general was a lot lower than becuase teams didn't throw nearly as many short passes (check downs secifically) in that era.

[argolio]

Looked like Roy Dewalt was going to be a dual-threat guy in his early CFL career but that never materialized. Didn't he develop knee problems or something?

[ArgoGabe22]

I have no evidence but Bernie Custis (1st black pro QB in modern era) was a track star and was recruited as a Safety and RB in the NFL so I'm assuming when he played QB for Hamilton and Ottawa he used his feet when he needed to.

[KCargosfan]

Er, I should have said not named Damon Allen or Doug Flutie. Brain lapse.

[Ron]

Flutie by far. Plus he also ran a ton of yards that will never count as he kept trying to make a really big play happen. (Much bigger than a 20 yard QB scamper)

[KCargosfan]

Travis Lulay: He is also a good punter. :D

hahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY6wwAhvirY

[OV Argo]

Flutie for sure; Ham was the greatest running QB in the history of the game IMO and also a pretty decent passer; Dunigan was a great passer and a very good running QB; Damon was a great runner and had a good arm, but was woefully inconsistent as a pure passer; Russ Jackson could run like a RB and also had the tremeddous arm and other great QB skills.

Jackson and Flutie as best dual threats - cause IMO they also happen to be the 2 best QBs ever in the CFL and did it with both passing & running.

[AngeloV]

Jackson and Flutie as best dual threats - cause IMO they also happen to be the 2 best QBs ever in the CFL

Admittedly, I never saw Jackson play live, but I truly believe Warren Moon is the best I have ever seen (with all due respect to Flutie)

[1argoholic]

Flutie would have had every qb record there was to have if he played his whole career up here. Moon and Jackson were amazing but Flutie was just perfect for this league.

[ArgoRavi]

Flutie would have had every qb record there was to have if he played his whole career up here. Moon and Jackson were amazing but Flutie was just perfect for this league.

I can't say anything about Jackson as I have only seen him play on the classic telecasts and only in about two or three games. Moon was an exceptional QB but he also had arguably the best team in CFL history around him. Flutie played on three different teams and made every team he played for better (after his rookie season). My vote goes to Flutie for the reason that he was able to raise the level of play of those around him IMO.

[OV Argo]

Admittedly, I never saw Jackson play live, but I truly believe Warren Moon is the best I have ever seen (with all due respect to Flutie)

When ever the topic of all-time great CFL QBs comes up - I always say - for me - there is a big 3 or 1A level - and that is Jackson, Moon and Flutie; after that there is a 1B level with the likes of Dunigan, Brock and quite a few other very good Qbs (Ricky Ray too),


All-time best is a real tough call IMO; Moon had the amazing passing arm and was mobile/athletic too; but IMO Jackson and Flutie had that extra dimension of running and scrambling abilty; Jackson had a gun for an arm - could throw bullets and bombs all over the field; and Flutie didn't have the arm strength of the other two, but his arm was strong enough and he was accurate and smart with vision, reads, etc.

[argonaut11xx]

He wasnt around for too long...but J.C.Watts was pretty fantastic...

[Will]

He wasnt around for too long...but J.C.Watts was pretty fantastic...

He almost led Ottawa to a miracle in 1981, but I don't know if he was anything special beyond that.

[Argo57]

He almost led Ottawa to a miracle in 1981, but I don't know if he was anything special beyond that.

Watts showed flashes of brilliance during his career, I remember him coming to Toronto in 1986 and thought he would excel as the Argonauts still employed a "Run and Shoot" style offence which seemed to suit his skill set but it just didn't seem to click for him here.

[ArgoRavi]

Watts showed flashes of brilliance during his career, I remember him coming to Toronto in 1986 and thought he would excel as the Argonauts still employed a "Run and Shoot" style offence which seemed to suit his skill set but it just didn't seem to click for him here.

I don't think that he was all that bad during his brief stint in Toronto. He managed to supplant a legend in Condredge Holloway as the starter and helped the team to a first-place finish. I don't believe that they lost in the playoffs that year due to his performance either as he played well in both games of the two-game total point series with Hamilton. Let's also not forget that the Argo offensive line that season gave up 103 sacks! To this day, I can't figure out how they gave up that many sacks. I doubt that is a CFL record that will ever be broken.

[Will]

My point is nobody would have ranked Watts up there with Clements (I know Angelo :)), Brock, Holloway and Dewalt in the early 1980's.

[Argo57]

I don't think that he was all that bad during his brief stint in Toronto. He managed to supplant a legend in Condredge Holloway as the starter and helped the team to a first-place finish. I don't believe that they lost in the playoffs that year due to his performance either as he played well in both games of the two-game total point series with Hamilton. Let's also not forget that the Argo offensive line that season gave up 103 sacks! To this day, I can't figure out how they gave up that many sacks. I doubt that is a CFL record that will ever be broken.


Ravi did you have to remind everyone about that 2 game total point series with Hamilton, probably one of the lowest points
for any Argonaut fan in their history!!!

[argonaut11xx]

My point is nobody would have ranked Watts up there with Clements (I know Angelo :)), Brock, Holloway and Dewalt in the early 1980's.

I disagree, at that time, he was a big deal..playing with very little talent around him in Ottawa, and doing a decent job in Toronto.
His signing in Toronto was a big deal.
The others were elite QB's of the day.....only Legends afterwards.

I not saying by any means he is a legendary QB, just that he was a one of the better Duel Threat QB's..(Brock sure wasnt)

He was really fun to watch.

[Childress]

Jeff Garcia deserves a mention here as an excellent dual threat guy. He wasn't as good as Flutie, but I'd take him over Allen to win a big game with his arm and his legs.

[AngeloV]

I think Watts would have been a CFL great if he didn't have other career aspirations. He still was a pretty good QB in his limited stay.

[Argo57]

I don't think that he was all that bad during his brief stint in Toronto. He managed to supplant a legend in Condredge Holloway as the starter and helped the team to a first-place finish. I don't believe that they lost in the playoffs that year due to his performance either as he played well in both games of the two-game total point series with Hamilton. Let's also not forget that the Argo offensive line that season gave up 103 sacks! To this day, I can't figure out how they gave up that many sacks. I doubt that is a CFL record that will ever be broken.

103 Allowed sacks is a staggering stat, boggles the mind that the QB's survived the onslaught, I had truly forgotten that.
FYI I saw Holloway being interviewed a few years ago saying that he knew it was time to retire when he started thinking more and more about the pain of getting hit rather than actually making the plays. You have to admire their courage for sure.

[Midnight Blue]

A Lady friend of mine said that Doug Flutie had the perfect package;

He may have been short, but he was able to go long when needed,

and to run like hell when chased.

[jerrym]

A Lady friend of mine said that Doug Flutie had the perfect package;

He may have been short, but he was able to go long when needed,

and to run like hell when chased.

Are you sure that's what she was referring to? My wife always liked his tight buns.

[Midnight Blue]

Are you sure that's what she was referring to? My wife always liked his tight buns.

No doubt it helped his forward potential.

And the half-inch beneath the surface always counts. Allows one to claim the next level.

(At least for us white guys.)


Ka' Pla !