September 21, 2013: Toronto Argonauts vs. Calgary Stampeders

[T-Bone]

http://cfl.assets.mrx.ca/shared/sked_blocks_logos/2012_2/2012_schedule_default2/tor.png vs. http://cfl.assets.mrx.ca/shared/sked_blocks_logos/2012_2/2012_schedule_default2/cgy.png

Week 13
Saturday, September 21, 2013 at 7:30pm EDT.
McMahon Stadium. Calgary, AB.

TV: TSN (http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/feature/?id=508) - RDS2 HD (http://cfl.ca/schedule/year/2013/time_zone/0)
Video Webcast: Mobile TV (http://www.tsn.ca/mobiletv/) - ESPN3 (http://cfl.ca/page/us-broadcast-schedule)
Team Radio TOR: TSN1050.ca - CGY: CHQR 770 (http://www.newstalk770.com/Sports/Stamps/Home.aspx)
Audio Webcast: TOR: Here (http://www.tsn.ca/toronto/) - CGY: Here (http://player.qr77.com/)
Satellite Radio: SiriusXM (http://www.siriusxm.ca/sports-schedules/cfl/)

Depth Charts: TOR: Here (http://www.argonauts.ca/depthchart/list/team/7/year/2013) - CGY: Here (http://www.stampeders.com/depthchart/list/team/2/year/2013)

Away Game Viewing:
http://www.argofans.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=334&d=1378729253

Post Game: Argos End Stamps Home Winning Streak, Improve to 8-4 (http://www.argonauts.ca/article/recap-argos-at-stamps)

[Will]

A tough matchup once again for the Argonauts. The Stampeders have clearly staked out their claim as the best team in the CFL in my opinion after the last few weeks that Saskatchewan has had. I am not sure who the Stampeders will start at QB, but we will have to contend with Jon Cornish this time around. The Argos did a nice job containing Jerome Messam and were doing a good job on Sheets until he got hurt so hopefully that will also carry over to this game.

[mchesher03]

Given the surprising W’s in the last 2 weeks – this game is like gravy to me. I know you gotta go out and get W’s whenever you play but after the snoozer on Sept. 3 I left the ‘Dome thinking we were doomed to go 0-4 or 1-3 over the next month at best. We’re already 2-0 and I think the Edmonton game is obviously winnable – to come out of this nasty road trip at 3-1 or 4-0 would be quite the accomplishment IMO. </SPAN>

[gilthethrill]

These last two Argo wins remind me of the Brian Sipe led 1980 Cleveland Browns who were dubbed the "Cardiac Kids".

[Will]

Anyone interested in away game viewing at Shoeless Joe's?

[ArgoGabe22]

Anyone interested in away game viewing at Shoeless Joe's?

Is there any other sporting events on that day? I can't make it but I know someone who went last Sunday and said never again would he go to Shoeless Joes but I think it's because it was on at the same as a lot of NFL games.

[Will]

Was it simply too crowded for that reason or no space was set aside for Argo fans to watch the game? If it is the latter I'd be quite surprised since Shoeless advertises itself as the official party site for the Argos.

[ArgoGabe22]

Was it simply too crowded for that reason or no space was set aside for Argo fans to watch the game? If it is the latter I'd be quite surprised since Shoeless advertises itself as the official party site for the Argos.

Supposedly the back room (never been so not sure what it's like) was for the Argos game and the rest was for the NFL but NFL crowd was so annoying with the volume that they spoiled the experience.

[argotom]

Unlike the game against the Riders where most of us no doubt predicted very little chance, for this game I think there is a better then even chance of winning.

[Ron]

Well ... if Hamilton could play them so close I see no reason we can't play them close as well.

[jerrym]

With Kackert possibly out with a concussion, Norwood, who looked great against the Riders, especially in the dying minutes when he repeatedly bulled his way to three first downs, could be the #1 back again. However, if Norwood, who was obviously limping at the end of the game, has a lingering injury I would prefer that the Argos not use him against Calgary as the loss of one game is less important than having a healthy RB for the playoffs, especially when Hamilton is two games back and Montreal three back in the standings.

[T-Bone]

Anyone interested in away game viewing at Shoeless Joe's?
I'm in, willing to give it a try. Planned to go a few times but never worked out.

[Mulder]

At the start of this road trip, I said I would be happy if we went 2-2. 2 games in and 2-0, I think going 4-0 is a possibility.

[294life]

This game is also known as the 'War of the Roses' in the 1argoholic household.

[Will]

Chad Owens is "doubtful" for this game. His injury is evidently of the nagging type that takes awhile to heal. Chad Kackert is "day-to-day" with the concussion. Anyone heard anything about the guys who missed the last game like Hammer and Jamie Robinson?

EDIT: McCune should be good to go.

[1argoholic]

I like the fact that Glenn is starting. It would be sweet to win this but we need a real fast strong start.

[Wobbler]

Chad Owens is "doubtful" for this game. His injury is evidently of the nagging type that takes awhile to heal. Chad Kackert is "day-to-day" with the concussion. Anyone heard anything about the guys who missed the last game like Hammer and Jamie Robinson?

EDIT: McCune should be good to go.
I'm wondering about Robinson too; it's hard to know his status relative to Colclough if his health isn't disclosed.

Based on the way Milanovich answered questions, I don't think either Chad will even be on the 46.

(After a few minutes) Well, we will need to sit imports, so one could be on the 46. I don't think either will play, however.

[mint83]

Rest easy everyone, there will be Argo fans at McMahon Stadium tomorrow. I will be there with my kids. I have turned my 8 YO son into a true fan. My 11 YO daughter is not into it as much but likes going to games anyway. We just hope second half Collaros shows up instead of first half Collaros.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Soooo, now that the Riders did you a solid, how about your team go on a undefeated run for awhile, just like last year! (except for the Grey Cup of course!):)

[Wobbler]

I'm wondering about Robinson too; it's hard to know his status relative to Colclough if his health isn't disclosed.
It isn't reflected at Argonauts.ca yet, but today's transactions wire shows that we've put Robinson and Steele on the PR. So it seems clear that we prefer Colclough to Robinson at LB and Norwood to Steele at RB. Also, Porter has been released.

[AngeloV]

Soooo, now that the Riders did you a solid, how about your team go on a undefeated run for awhile, just like last year! (except for the Grey Cup of course!):)

How did they do the Argos a solid?

[VANRIDERFAN]

How did they do the Argos a solid? We let you win the game! :)

[Will]

This is what I see on CFL.ca regarding Robinson and Steele, but I don't see any mention of them being added to the PR on CFL.ca, they are still on the injured list on argonauts.ca:

TOR ADD FROM INJURED IMP James ROBINSON (DB) Florida State
TOR ADD FROM INJURED IMP Curtis STEELE (RB) Memphis
TOR DEL IMP James ROBINSON (DB) Florida State
TOR DEL IMP Curtis STEELE (RB) Memphis

[argotom]

No mention in any of the Sun articles regarding a possible release?

[gilthethrill]

I have been confused by CFL transactions for years....really hard to follow activity, especially game day lineups for the Argos.

[ArgoRavi]

This is what I see on CFL.ca regarding Robinson and Steele, but I don't see any mention of them being added to the PR on CFL.ca, they are still on the injured list on argonauts.ca:

TOR ADD FROM INJURED IMP James ROBINSON (DB) Florida State
TOR ADD FROM INJURED IMP Curtis STEELE (RB) Memphis
TOR DEL IMP James ROBINSON (DB) Florida State
TOR DEL IMP Curtis STEELE (RB) Memphis




If I am not mistaken, a player has to be "deleted" or released from the active roster first before they are put on the PR unless they are a new player. Tyler Holmes, btw, is on the one-game injured list.

[Argo57]

Anyone read Ziccarelli's article today where he mentioned that had it not been for "dubious" officiating and questionable calls on some of Larry Taylor's returns Calgary could have won the Grey Cup!
I must have been watching a different game as I thought the final score was actually flattering to the Stampeders.

[ArgoRavi]

Anyone read Ziccarelli's article today where he mentioned that had it not been for "dubious" officiating and questionable calls on some of Larry Taylor's returns Calgary could have won the Grey Cup!
I must have been watching a different game as I thought the final score was actually flattering to the Stampeders.

I didn't read that but the Argos dominated the Stamps in that game. The level of domination was surprising, as we all expected a close game and the Argos hadn't had that dominant of a performance all season. Furthermore, the Stamps, like the Argos, were coming into that game playing their best football of the season. I have no idea what Zicarelli is talking about.

[argotom]

Anyone read Ziccarelli's article today where he mentioned that had it not been for "dubious" officiating and questionable calls on some of Larry Taylor's returns Calgary could have won the Grey Cup!
I must have been watching a different game as I thought the final score was actually flattering to the Stampeders. I read that and am with you A57, no idea where this came from and literally out of left field.

[Will]

Can you point us to the title of the article. I have looked online at the two articles written about the game and am unable to find that of which you speak.

[argosrule2415]

So Owens is out again today, but apparently is going to be at the UFC event today. (Assuming that this his real twitter account)

<iframe style="width: 1px; height: 1px; border: medium none; position: absolute;" allowtransparency="true" class="twitter-tweet twitter-tweet-rendered" id="twitter-widget-0" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>
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good luck tonight bro! @dustinkimura (https://twitter.com/DustinKimura) I'll be there live! @ufc_ca (https://twitter.com/UFC_CA) #UFC165 (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23UFC165&src=hash) #HawaiisOwn (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23HawaiisOwn&src=hash) #localboy (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23localboy&src=hash) http://t.co/fQMMsfcNIS
— Chad Owens (@ChadOwens2) September 21, 2013 (https://twitter.com/ChadOwens2/statuses/381477812081000448)
<script async="" src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<script async="" src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

If he's healthy enough to be attending the UFC event, shouldn't he have been supporting the team in Calgary instead? Not questioning his heart as he's been one of our key heart and soul guys for the past number of years.<iframe style="display: none;" allowtransparency="true" id="rufous-sandbox" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

[Will]

Up to the team whether they want him to travel out or not isn't it?

[ArgoGabe22]

Up to the team whether they want him to travel out or not isn't it?

They usually don't send injured or any PR guys on road trips. Even Ricky Ray didn't travel last season but I do believe he did travel with the team this season. Keeps the costs down.

[Argo57]

Can you point us to the title of the article. I have looked online at the two articles written about the game and am unable to find that of which you speak.

It is in today's Toronto Sun (Page#S15) "More twists and turns than a can of worms".

[Will]

Ray travels with the team because I assume he is valuable as a support mechanism for Collaros.

[Wobbler]

This is what I see on CFL.ca regarding Robinson and Steele, but I don't see any mention of them being added to the PR on CFL.ca, they are still on the injured list on argonauts.ca:

TOR ADD FROM INJURED IMP James ROBINSON (DB) Florida State
TOR ADD FROM INJURED IMP Curtis STEELE (RB) Memphis
TOR DEL IMP James ROBINSON (DB) Florida State
TOR DEL IMP Curtis STEELE (RB) Memphis
You missed this part:

Non-Active
TOR ADD IMP James ROBINSON (DB) Florida State
TOR ADD IMP Curtis STEELE (RB) Memphis
TOR REM SGD NIP Tyler HOLMES (OL) Tulsa
TOR REM UNS IMP Quinn PORTER (RB) Stillman College

Thus, Robinson and Steele are on the PR, Holmes is on the IR, and Porter was released. Today's depth chart actually reflects all of these changes, but I didn't notice that yesterday.

[ArgoRavi]

Time to guess the scratches. I say Andrew Jones, Tony Washington, Austin English and Romby Bryant.

[Wobbler]

Same as last week? Yeah, probably.

[bluto]

WhooooOOOOoooo!

Mitchel hammers Glenn!

[bluto]

WhooOOOOoooo!

Mitchell hammers Cornish!

[bluto]

Ball tipped and Watkins takes it to the 3 yard line (and gets levelled).

ZC ought to go in from there...

[bluto]

Corner route to a twisting Chiles for the TD!

[Wobbler]

Amazing start for the D. Talk about taking charge early:

Can we sack Glenn? You bet.
Can we intercept his passes? Uh huh!
Can we stuff Cornish? Oh yeah.

Utter domination so far. That isn't likely to last, but some seeds of doubt have been planted in the Stamps' minds.

[jerrym]

Khalif looks like he is really clued into this game with a early sack and stop in the backfield.
Watkins Interception!
Chiles great catch for TD!
As soon as I type something in so far I have to add another comment. Keep it up Argos!

[bluto]

possible fumble... replay shows it was a forward pass attempt (for me)... no challenge. 1st down Calgary

[jerrym]

I thought Milanovich should have challenged the Collaros pass/fumble since the position is almost in the red zone and his arm seemed to have started moving forward.

[bluto]

Arthur gets behind the coverage... Glenn chucks a dart for the TD

costly non-challenge on the fumble...

[Wobbler]

Looked like a fumble to me. I'm more worried about Eppele's brain cramp on that play. What was he thinking?!

[bluto]

Glenn had no outlet there... excellent coverage by the secondary

[jerrym]

There should have been late hit roughing penalty for hitting Guy well after he hit the ground. He didn't grab his knee until after the late hit.

[jerrym]

For me, the second Collaros "fumble" was not as his arm was even more clearly moving forward.

[Wobbler]

I have to agree with Milanovich again. It looked like by the time Collaros started to move his arm forward the ball wasn't in it any more.

[bluto]

we're digging ourselves a hole with these fumbles... can't count on 4th quarter heroics every week...

[Will]

Ball security an issue for Collaros. The Stampeders have both their TD off of Collaros fumbles deep in our own territory. Let us see if the team has the resilience to play from behind again.

O line and receivers not helping him either.

[bluto]

Ball security an issue for Collaros. The Stampeders have both their TD off of Collaros fumbles deep in our own territory. Let us see if the team has the resilience to play from behind again.

O line and receivers not helping him either.

it's that damn baseball style windup. that's 4 fumbles i've seen on him where he has taken the ball back and he gets stripped before he "raises" it to throw.

Beauty play by Norwood!

[Wobbler]

There were some great adjustments on that TD drive. Hopefully we've started our "late 3rd quarter surge" a quarter early.

[jerrym]

Great use of Durie-Norwood run/pass combo to score TD!

[bluto]

TD Durie on the misdirection play... and a shoutout to Runnymede CI

[bluto]

i hope that forcing the Stamps to respect our run packages takes some of the heat off ZC

[Wobbler]

OK, now *that* was a bad call on Jalil Carter. It was not immediately obvious that the receiver had gone out of bounds and Carter barely touched him.

[bluto]

OK, now *that* was a bad call on Jalil Carter. It was not clear that the receiver had gone out of bounds and Carter barely touched him.

really? to me, the receiver was clearly on the chalk when Carter puts the lick on him.

[bluto]

Trent Guy... what. the. actual. ****.

[Wobbler]

Trent Guy, you fool. You are very lucky you didn't just incompetently concede a safety.

[jerrym]

Total screwup by Guy, but Norwood-Durie save Argos again!

[Wobbler]

really? to me, the receiver was clearly on the chalk when Carter puts the lick on him.
It's absolutely clear after looking at the replay, but I don't think it was clear to Carter at the time. That's why I think he should have gotten the benefit of the doubt.

[Wobbler]

Once Collaros starts to run productively, good things happen. I like where this is going.

[Will]

Not a bad end to the half for Collaros.

[jerrym]

Waters has to straighten out that hook in his FG kicks.

[ArgoRavi]

really? to me, the receiver was clearly on the chalk when Carter puts the lick on him.

Except it was a little shove at best. I thought that Carter eased up on McDaniel there. Oh well, it didn't matter much anyway.

[ArgoRavi]

Waters has to straighten out that hook in his FG kicks.

It looked to me like he didn't play the wind properly which Parades did on his long FG kick. That and the two Collaros fumbles are the difference so far. It has been an entertaining game so far between the two best teams in the game right now.

[jerrym]

If the Argos can avoid major mistakes in the second half, they have an excellent chance to win the game as other than the "fumbles" they are outplaying Calgary.

[bluto]

Argos haven't woken from their halftime naps :peekaboo:

[Wobbler]

We aren't the only ones who can make adjustments - Calgary just executed a terrific drive to open the second half, including a well disguised run by Cornish. These guys aren't 9-2 for nuthin'.

[jerrym]

Chiles - what a combo of speed and power!

[bluto]

what a sad TD if you're a Calgary defensive back :D

[Wobbler]

Yep, we're still locked in. That was a fun drive!

[jerrym]

Inman - Chiles twin - responds to Chiles challenge with a TD!

[jerrym]

Don't Kick to Taylor! I've already to many nightmares of him.

[bluto]

Holding ALL OVER THE PLACE on McDaniel's run

[jerrym]

Watkins - the quiet All-star - does it again!

[bluto]

seems like quite a few players (from both sidelines) getting shaken up tonight.

it's a battle out there.

[bluto]

we have the wind in the 4th... need to stop them here.

[Wobbler]

I like our chances now that the game is tied. The O has come together, and I think our D can respond.

[jerrym]

All those Calgary penalties cost them the chance to kick with the wind and saved the Argos a FG try by Calgary.

[Wobbler]

Run, Collaros.

[jerrym]

Argos need to replace Guy. He has neither the breakaway speed nor elusiveness you want in a returner and is a poor judge of when and where to catch the ball.

[bluto]

ha! Glenn running to his left and throwing into the wind... not a recipe for success

[Wobbler]

Argos need to replace Guy. He has neither the speed nor elusiveness you want in a returner and is a poor judge of when and where to catch the ball.
Guy made one grievous error today, but did you watch last week's game? Guy will be the... guy for the time being.

[Wobbler]

BRADWELL! I am impressed.

[jerrym]

Bradwell TD! Its been a long time since I've seen you there (2011)!

[bluto]

way to get open and then a nice adjustment by Bradwell... ball was thrown a bit behind where his pace was taking him.

Inman and Bradwell both made nice adjustments to help ZC out.

[jerrym]

Argos need to replace Guy. He has neither the breakaway speed nor elusiveness you want in a returner and is a poor judge of when and where to catch the ball.
I don't see him as a top returner and the Argos have to decide whether they want to have Owens continue to take the punishment that comes with the returner. I think they need to make Owens a receiver only because the signs are there that he won't last much longer doing both all the time.

[Wobbler]

Morley... you were impressive last week but Calgary cut you for a reason. Please stop taking dumb penalties.

[jerrym]

Watkins stops another Calgary drive!

[Wobbler]

Dang. Paredes just gave us a gift. Let's not waste it.

[Wobbler]

Collaros needs to run when he can. RUN!

[bluto]

how is the Stampeder's mascot:

i) a dog
ii) a dog dressed like Thor

??

[jerrym]

Calgary penalty on a go-ahead TD! Talk about an Argo bounce.

[Wobbler]

Thanks for running, Collaros!

[bluto]

Calgary runs that pick all game... all season... nice to finally see it called

[Wobbler]

My team won! I'm quite pleased.

[jerrym]

The Argos are going to kill with these last second wins!

[argos1873]

Gotta love Calgary's attempt at the onside open field kick, but luckily it didn't work out.

Will the Argos be ranked #1 in the power rankings this week? After beating Sask and Calgary in succession ON THE ROAD, I think they should be.

[jerrym]

Norwood with 10 rushes for 68 yards has given the Argos a ground game in the last two games again. He also caught 4 passes for 67 yards while he has combined with Durie, who gained 17 yards on 2 rushes and 9 catches for 64 mostly YAK yards, in order to give the Argos a new Dynamic Duo.

[jerrym]

Collaros, despite his sometimes poor handle on the ball, was a Slingin' Sam (Etcheverry), going 25 for 36 for 330 yards.

[argotom]

Wow, another one. Just keep playing on the road.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Thanks, for assist!

[paulwoods13]

Collaros, despite his sometimes poor handle on the ball, was a Slingin' Sam (Etcheverry), going 25 for 36 for 330 yards.

Offensive Player of the Week, unless someone goes off in B.C.-Sask.

[Wobbler]

Thanks, for assist!
You are quite welcome. Thanks again for handing us a win last week! It's good to know that pride isn't an issue.

[Will]

Zach Collaros was pretty good tonight. The ball security issues are to be worked on, but they haven't really cost us yet. The Stampeders capitalized on those two fumbles and I think scored another TD on one of Larry Taylor's long kickoff returns.

[argotom]

This has to be brought up again and after a better win today then last week, Zach is a keeper. There is no way you can let him go at year end, he is 9 years younger and is the future.

[jerrym]

Gabriel had another strong game with 2 tackles from scrimmage and 4 ST tackles.

[argosrule2415]

The road warriors strike again! Awesome win. Too bad Gord Miller had to remind us all that Collaros may be Ottawa bound in the draft lol

[Wobbler]

The Toronto Argonauts are the best team in the CFL.

[ArgoZ]

This has to be brought up again and after a better win today then last week, Zach is a keeper. There is no way you can let him go at year end, he is 9 years younger and is the future.

Definitely more evidence to back up this case. Are you prepared to let the best QB is the league walk to take a chance on this kid? Ready to put your job on the line and make that call? It is a lot easier for us to play armchair though, without any consequences or giving any solutions.

[argotom]

Definitely more evidence to back up this case. Are you prepared to let the best QB is the league walk to take a chance on this kid? Ready to put your job on the line and make that call? It is a lot easier for us to play armchair though, without any consequences or giving any solutions. Yes I would roll the dice. Don't forget at 34, RR has had two major injuries the last two years. I would trade RR for a top notch player plus high draft choices. Also don't forget, Edmonton did trade him as well.

[ArgoZ]

Edmonton in one of the worst trades in history did indeed trade Ray, enabled us a Grey Cup, and led to the GM being fired. Perfect evidence and proof that it is not that simple. You would need to trade Ray this season, still ready?

[Will]

Everytime this Collaros/Ray issues comes up I think back to the 1991 offseason and Ricky Foggie and Ricky Ray.

[Deerkeeper]

Calgary runs that pick all game... all season... nice to finally see it calledYeah, but I bet all the refereeing bashers will be screaming blue bloody murder over that call.

[Argo57]

This has to be brought up again and after a better win today then last week, Zach is a keeper. There is no way you can let him go at year end, he is 9 years younger and is the future.

2-3 weeks ago I would have strongly disagreed Tom, but with each passing game the decision gets more difficult, this kid is something special and seems fearless out there.
Thrilled to see the Argonauts pulling off these wins out west who thought they'd be looking at a sweep on this road trip!!!!!

[ArgoZ]

Everytime this Collaros/Ray issues comes up I think back to the 1991 offseason and Ricky Foggie and Ricky Ray.

Good comparison. Argos go from champs to last place. They would have to win the Cup this year though for it to be exactly similar to 91.

[ArgoRavi]

Wow, another one. Just keep playing on the road.

Collaros was asked about the Argos being 5-1 on the road after the game on TSN and he had trouble coming up with a reason why the Argos play so well on the road but gave one inadvertently. He mentioned that it was another great atmosphere this week. Of course, the atmosphere in Winnipeg, Montreal, Regina and Calgary is much different than it is in Toronto. Hopefully the atmosphere can build in Toronto starting when the Argos finally play again at home in two weeks against the Ticats.

[Will]

Yeah, but I bet all the refereeing bashers will be screaming blue bloody murder over that call.

There are several Ticat fans on twitter/facebook who need to call a WAHmbulance!

[argotom]

2-3 weeks ago I would have strongly disagreed Tom, but with each passing game the decision gets more difficult, this kid is something special and seems fearless out there.
Thrilled to see the Argonauts pulling off these wins out west who thought they'd be looking at a sweep on this road trip!!!!! Absolutely, this is very much a difficult decision. But the kid is very special and reminds me of having a little bit of the Flutie magic.

[Will]

Good comparison. Argos go from champs to last place. They would have to win the Cup this year though for it to be exactly similar to 91.

Ya, but my point is that Dunigan was injured plenty during his time in Toronto oo and I think that was part of the reason he was let go. The team obviously had confidence in Foggie, but he wasn't able to carry over his promising play in 1991. I think Collaros is a better QB than Foggie, but you can't help but keep that in mind.

[argotom]

Collaros was asked about the Argos being 5-1 on the road after the game on TSN and he had trouble coming up with a reason why the Argos play so well on the road but gave one inadvertently. He mentioned that it was another great atmosphere this week. Of course, the atmosphere in Winnipeg, Montreal, Regina and Calgary is much different than it is in Toronto. Hopefully the atmosphere can build in Toronto starting when the Argos finally play again at home in two weeks against the Ticats. That's precisely the reason we need to get out of the dome asap, I hope Mr. Braley get's something done on the stadium before he sells.

[ArgoZ]

I think Zack Collaros is definitely the answer to our Cleo Lemon problems, eh ArgoTom. Seems the timing can never be right.

[argotom]

I think Zack Collaros is definitely the answer to our Cleo Lemon problems, eh ArgoTom. Seems the timing can never be right. No kidding, we either have no QB's, or way too many as Harris isn't bad as well.

[Argo57]

I think Zack Collaros is definitely the answer to our Cleo Lemon problems, eh ArgoTom. Seems the timing can never be right.

Hard to believe that debacle was only 2 years ago, kudos to Barker and the management team for the turnaround!!

[argotom]

Hard to believe that debacle was only 2 years ago, kudos to Barker and the management team for the turnaround!! Now for the first time in a long time, we can actually say how the team has developed two young QB's, Collaros and Harris.

[ArgoRavi]

When Ricky Ray comes back in a few weeks, he will remind us again why the Argos cannot trade him. There is no point in worrying about what to do with Collaros until after the season. Just enjoy him for now and hopefully we can enjoy another Grey Cup appearance and win in November.

[ArgoRavi]

Now for the first time in a long time, we can actually say how the team has developed two young QB's, Collaros and Harris.

There is some sentiment out there that Josh Portis could be another excellent find although we will have to wait until next year to find out more about him.

[argotom]

There is some sentiment out there that Josh Portis could be another excellent find although we will have to wait until next year to find out more about him. Like I said too many QB's. Ottawa is rubbing their hands.

[ArgoRavi]

The Argos, after tonight's big win, have now defeated every other team in the league at least once. Impressive indeed!

[1argoholic]

Firstly great game other than the two fumbles. Love the way Collaros played and the terrific and interesting play calling.
If I was Ottawa I'd be grabbing a guy like Glenn and not struggling and sinking a young qb as we trying to build a team.

[jerrym]

Although Ottawa can only draft two qbs, it might draft Collaros or Ray from Toronto, and Glenn or Mitchell from Calgary, giving it the best first and second strong qb combo in the league.

[ArgoRavi]

Although Ottawa can only draft two qbs, it might draft Collaros or Ray from Toronto, and Glenn or Mitchell from Calgary, giving it the best first and second strong qb combo in the league.

Collaros will be a free agent next February so I have my doubts that Ottawa would even select him in the expansion draft as they would still have to sign him. I would be surprised if Calgary does not protect Mitchell which would leave Tate and Glenn exposed. If I were Marcel Desjardins, I would probably draft Tate to be my starter and then look at someone like Matt Nichols out of Edmonton to be my backup.

[jerrym]

Collaros will be a free agent next February so I have my doubts that Ottawa would even select him in the expansion draft as they would still have to sign him. I would be surprised if Calgary does not protect Mitchell which would leave Tate and Glenn exposed. If I were Marcel Desjardins, I would probably draft Tate to be my starter and then look at someone like Matt Nichols out of Edmonton to be my backup.
That assumes that Ottawa would not secretly make contact with his agent before the draft and see if can arrange an immediate large salary contract to be signed right after the draft in the same way many free agents sign immediately after the free agent deadline is reached. This kind of thing happens quite regularly.

[ArgoRavi]

That assumes that Ottawa would not secretly make contact with his agent before the draft and see if can arrange an immediate large salary contract to be signed right after the draft in the same way many free agents sign immediately after the free agent deadline is reached. This kind of thing happens quite regularly.

While that could happen, the expansion draft is two months before he would become a free agent. That just seems like a long time for such a secret deal to hold and, of course, would be a case of tampering which would be easier to find out with such a huge time frame. I also doubt that there is much benefit to Collaros in committing himself to Ottawa that early as there will undoubtedly be other teams in the CFL like Winnipeg and perhaps some NFL teams interested in him.

[bluto]

it isn't that it would be tampering that makes it implausible to me (heck, it'd be a shocker if there wasn't)...

...it's that Collaros and his people would be crazy to sign before the new CBA drops and they get all offers in (Ottawa, Wpg, Mtl, Ham...)

[Stevoman]

It has been a fun ride watching these last few games! I eagerly await the return of Owens, Kackert and Ray but am very impressed with the heart that has been displayed in their absence. Great team win!

[Argoriffic]

Best. Team. In. The. League.

[flafson]

Great game, i really liked that ZC was more balanced in terms of being alright throughout the game and not only during the 2nd half.

[Tau Ceti]

Really impressive game. Great depth on this team -- plenty of options with the receivers. Collaros is presenting the team a really tough choice regarding who to protect. He was solid top to bottom.

A couple of fans made it down to Shoeless Joe's tonight. Nice to meet some folks.

[argolio]

We aren't the only ones who can make adjustments - Calgary just executed a terrific drive to open the second half, including a well disguised run by Cornish. These guys aren't 9-2 for nuthin'.Good teams often come out of halftime in a close game, score on their first drive. and win the game. Great sign that we won despite them scoring.


Yes I would roll the dice. Don't forget at 34, RR has had two major injuries the last two years. I would trade RR for a top notch player plus high draft choices. Also don't forget, Edmonton did trade him as well.And that turned out well for Edmonton.

No one would trade for Ray if we protected Collaros and signed him because every other team knows Ray would be released if Ottawa didn't take him. No way we could keep two QBs with big contracts.

It's also possible Collaros will try the NFL next year whether we protect him or not since he's on an expiring contract.

Major injuries keep you out for up to a full year, not less than two months. Unless he has concussion issues or something chronic, injuries should not be a factor.

[gilthethrill]

I can't give enough credit to young Alonzo Lawrence for chasing down that kick at the end to preserve the win. Honorable mention goes to Kevin Glenn who continues to give up timely interceptions.

[ArgoRedneck]

Definitely more evidence to back up this case. Are you prepared to let the best QB is the league walk to take a chance on this kid? Ready to put your job on the line and make that call? It is a lot easier for us to play armchair though, without any consequences or giving any solutions.

Its kinda like buying stocks. Do you invest in the blue chip(Ray) or risk your money on a penney stock(Collaros). Good chance with this one we triple our money with the penny stock, but no guarantee. The blue chip is a proven solid preformer and pays good dividends.

[flafson]

I can't give enough credit to young Alonzo Lawrence for chasing down that kick at the end to preserve the win. Honorable mention goes to Kevin Glenn who continues to give up timely interceptions.

You're right, i'm always impressed with players that do the right thing on weird plays. They had to know the rules and understand what was happening and still get to the ball before Calgary, impressive.

[AngeloV]

Great game for the Argos.

Collaros played a fantastic game. I'm not too worried about the fumbles. All this ball security stuff, I don't buy. When a QB is starting to throw and gets hit, he' going to fumble or have it ruled an incomplete pass. To me, those were both protection issues rather than QB protecting the ball issues.

Norwood was great. I guess we now know how he moved up the depth chart so fast. He wasn't just "given" the spot by the "thinkers".

What more can you say about Chiles other than THANK-YOU Rocket Ismail.

Another solid effort from Durie. What a great player he has become. I don't think anybody has worked as hard as he has to get to the level of player he's at, what with the injury and position change years ago. More credit to Jim Barker here as well who created the Pinball type of position for him.

I thought the D played a great game as well. They really only gave up 1 drive and that was on the opening possession of the 2nd half. The other 2 TD's were on short fields after the turnovers.

Guy was OK. I'll definitely take him back there over Feoli Gudino.

Now, I have to chime in on the Collaros vs. Ray debate on here. Collaros is a free agent, so the conversation should stop there. I am of the opinion that Collaros in not going to sign anywhere until the season is over, and he is going to try the NFL. There is no contract a CFL team can offer that will stop a young player from trying the NFL should there be any interest. So like it or not (and I can't understand those on the not side) Ray will be the Argos QB that is protected and will likely be the starting QB for at least 4 more years.

[AngeloV]

I can't give enough credit to young Alonzo Lawrence for chasing down that kick at the end to preserve the win. Honorable mention goes to Kevin Glenn who continues to give up timely interceptions.

Great play by Lawrence, but when I see that replay, McDaniel was definitely a yard ahead of Arthur when the punt was made....but since there was not a no yards called on the play, obviously the officials missed it. Had Calgary scored, the play would have been reviewed, but would it have been overturned? Just glad we didn't have to find out.

[Will]

Great game for the Argos.

Collaros played a fantastic game. I'm not too worried about the fumbles. All this ball security stuff, I don't buy. When a QB is starting to throw and gets hit, he' going to fumble or have it ruled an incomplete pass. To me, those were both protection issues rather than QB protecting the ball issues.

Norwood was great. I guess we now know how he moved up the depth chart so fast. He wasn't just "given" the spot by the "thinkers".

What more can you say about Chiles other than THANK-YOU Rocket Ismail.

Another solid effort from Durie. What a great player he has become. I don't think anybody has worked as hard as he has to get to the level of player he's at, what with the injury and position change years ago. More credit to Jim Barker here as well who created the Pinball type of position for him.

I thought the D played a great game as well. They really only gave up 1 drive and that was on the opening possession of the 2nd half. The other 2 TD's were on short fields after the turnovers.

Guy was OK. I'll definitely take him back there over Feoli Gudino.

Now, I have to chime in on the Collaros vs. Ray debate on here. Collaros is a free agent, so the conversation should stop there. I am of the opinion that Collaros in not going to sign anywhere until the season is over, and he is going to try the NFL. There is no contract a CFL team can offer that will stop a young player from trying the NFL should there be any interest. So like it or not (and I can't understand those on the not side) Ray will be the Argos QB that is protected and will likely be the starting QB for at least 4 more years.

Wasn't that drive also set up by a pretty good KR return by Taylor?

[Mowich]

Rock on Toronto Argonauts - another great win on the road. Thank you for beating the Stamps, guys!

[Will]

He had a tough game a few weeks back in Montreal, but praise to Patrick Watkins for two interceptions, a knock down. He was also kicked in the balls apparently too.

[ArgoGabe22]

Another solid effort from Durie. What a great player he has become. I don't think anybody has worked as hard as he has to get to the level of player he's at, what with the injury and position change years ago. More credit to Jim Barker here as well who created the Pinball type of position for him.

Hate to burst your bubble but wasn't it Bart Andrus who moved Durie to receiver?

[ArgoGabe22]

To those who want Collaros over Ray. Just check out Ray's numbers.... 15 Tds, 0 INTs. Collaros has been good but Ricky is still the best in the league IMO

<tbody>
<th>
Name
</th> <th>Team</th> <th id="h_comp"> Comp (http://cfl.ca/statistics/league/stat/Passing/year/2013/type/reg/team/toronto#) </th> <th id="h_att"> Att (http://cfl.ca/statistics/league/stat/Passing/year/2013/type/reg/team/toronto#) </th> <th id="h_passpct"> % (http://cfl.ca/statistics/league/stat/Passing/year/2013/type/reg/team/toronto#) </th> <th id="h_yards"> Yards (http://cfl.ca/statistics/league/stat/Passing/year/2013/type/reg/team/toronto#) </th> <th id="h_long"> Long (http://cfl.ca/statistics/league/stat/Passing/year/2013/type/reg/team/toronto#) </th> <th id="h_td"> TD (http://cfl.ca/statistics/league/stat/Passing/year/2013/type/reg/team/toronto#) </th> <th id="h_tdpct"> % (http://cfl.ca/statistics/league/stat/Passing/year/2013/type/reg/team/toronto#) </th> <th id="h_ints"> Ints (http://cfl.ca/statistics/league/stat/Passing/year/2013/type/reg/team/toronto#) </th> <th id="h_intpct"> % (http://cfl.ca/statistics/league/stat/Passing/year/2013/type/reg/team/toronto#) </th> <th id="h_rating" class="tbrightcap"> Rating (http://cfl.ca/statistics/league/stat/Passing/year/2013/type/reg/team/toronto#)
</th>

Ray, R (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/383)
TOR
148
189
78.3
1,824
73
15
7.9
0
0.0
134.0

</tbody>

[gilthethrill]

Great play by Lawrence, but when I see that replay, McDaniel was definitely a yard ahead of Arthur when the punt was made....but since there was not a no yards called on the play, obviously the officials missed it. Had Calgary scored, the play would have been reviewed, but would it have been overturned? Just glad we didn't have to find out.

I noticed on the replay McDaniel was for sure offside on that kick at the end. As for Chiles, he mentioned on AAA last Monday night that he attended a FA with Montreal but they did not offer him a contract. Funny how things workout.

[1argoholic]

Ray is our qb for the next number of years. He's a CFL Hall Of Famer and when healthy he's our guy. Speaking of Guy, he's CRAP! Guy has no confidence. Let's a ball bounce around and when he finally picks it up he almost runs into the endzone. Chad get better quickly. He doesn't like to get hit either and looks like a timid twig out there.

[AngeloV]

Hate to burst your bubble but wasn't it Bart Andrus who moved Durie to receiver?

I don't think he ever got serious attention there. It was definitely under Barker that he started playing the hybrid position.

[AngeloV]

Ray is our qb for the next number of years. He's a CFL Hall Of Famer and when healthy he's our guy. Speaking of Guy, he's CRAP! Guy has no confidence. Let's a ball bounce around and when he finally picks it up he almost runs into the endzone. Chad get better quickly. He doesn't like to get hit either and looks like a timid twig out there.

he had his ups and downs yesterday, but 4 returns for 40 yards isn't bad overall. Sure beat last week's combination of Colclough and Feoli-Gudino.

[ArgoRavi]

Wasn't that drive also set up by a pretty good KR return by Taylor?

Yes, it was. Taylor brought the opening kickoff of the second half back to near midfield IIRC. He then had an almost identical return on the next kickoff except he brought that back to the Argo 45 or so.

[ArgoRavi]

I don't think he ever got serious attention there. It was definitely under Barker that he started playing the hybrid position.

I believe that Durie caught one or two passes in 2009. His job was mostly to return kickoffs that season and he, along with Justin Medlock, were about the only bright spots on that team. You are correct that Barker is the one who really created that hybrid position for him which he has excelled at since 2010.

[Argo57]

Great play by Lawrence, but when I see that replay, McDaniel was definitely a yard ahead of Arthur when the punt was made....but since there was not a no yards called on the play, obviously the officials missed it. Had Calgary scored, the play would have been reviewed, but would it have been overturned? Just glad we didn't have to find out.

Plays like Lawrence made at the end of the game indicate good coaching and game preparation IMO.

[Stevoman]

I was impressed with Norwood yesterday. His style seems a little like Robert Drummond. He is definitely great to have right now.

[Rich]

To those who want Collaros over Ray. Just check out Ray's numbers.... 15 Tds, 0 INTs. Collaros has been good but Ricky is still the best in the league IMO

<tbody>


Ray, R (http://cfl.ca/roster/show/id/383)
TOR
148
189
78.3
1,824
73
15
7.9
0
0.0
134.0

</tbody>


Here are some more important numbers:

Argos are 4-3 with Ray starting.
Argos are 4-1 with Collaros starting.

[Will]

...and how much of that Calgary loss did Ricky Ray play?

[Midnight Blue]

Chris Schultz just made a good point at half-time during the Riders-Lions game, stating Collaros scrambles and makes great plays, while Ray makes precision plays, and easily has 5 years right in him to go. Go with precision over make-shift. True, Collaros has some Flutie-esqe magic, but he ain't Flutie yet.

Also, really love watching Norwood play too.

Ka' Pla !

[argolio]

Collaros played a fantastic game. I'm not too worried about the fumbles. All this ball security stuff, I don't buy. When a QB is starting to throw and gets hit, he' going to fumble or have it ruled an incomplete pass. To me, those were both protection issues rather than QB protecting the ball issues.Well said. Definitely a protection issue rather than a ball security issue. If you don't give your QB enough time, the chances of something bad happening go way up.

[Midnight Blue]

Well said. Definitely a protection issue rather than a ball security issue. If you don't give your QB enough time, the chances of something bad happening go way up.

I totally agree as well. Wish we can find a way to keep both Ray ad Collaros, though even if we could, would Collaros go for that?

[paulwoods13]

Here are some more important numbers:

Argos are 4-3 with Ray starting.
Argos are 4-1 with Collaros starting.

I'm sure you would agree that wins and losses aren't on any one player's shoulders. Certainly the Argo defence now is way better than it was in the first six to eight games of the season, when RR was playing most of the time. Are you in the camp of those who want the Argos to choose ZC over RR?

[jerrym]

There was a lot more forward motion in the alleged two fumbles by Collaros while passing than the Durant "pass" today against BC showed no forward motion at all even on replay.

[jerrym]

I'm sure you would agree that wins and losses aren't on any one player's shoulders. Certainly the Argo defence now is way better than it was in the first six to eight games of the season, when RR was playing most of the time. Are you in the camp of those who want the Argos to choose ZC over RR?
Ricky has 3 to 5 years left (and possibly even more a la Allen and Calvillo) barring a career-ending injury, which could also happen to Collaros. Much as I love Collaros, I would take the league's arguably best qb over the last decade (the only argument would be Ray vs Calvillo) over a qb with enormous potential and great but limited success.

[Rich]

I'm sure you would agree that wins and losses aren't on any one player's shoulders. Certainly the Argo defence now is way better than it was in the first six to eight games of the season, when RR was playing most of the time. Are you in the camp of those who want the Argos to choose ZC over RR?

Paul, we've had this discussion before, and i'm sure we'll have it again.

IMO, the near future is more important than the present when it comes to the long-term health of the Argonauts franchise.

When the Argos move into their new home in 4 years, they will have more attention put on them than maybe ever before. So what kind of team will they have in 4 years? Will they be better off with a 38 year old, injury-prone former great, or with a young dynamic QB in the prime of his career?

You have to be honest that Ricky is getting more brittle with each passing year. Why leave it to chance that we can come up with another Collaros to replace Ricky in 4 years?

The 2007 Green Bay Packers faced a similar predicament. Their all-time great QB just completed his best season statistically in 10 years (http://www.nfl.com/player/brettfavre/2500606/careerstats). But they had the future to think of. It takes guts to think about future when you run a football team. They had a fabulous young QB, they weren't sure how he would do in the long run, but if they didn't use him, they would lose him.

That gutsy decision turned out pretty nice for the Packers.

The Colts did something similar a couple of years ago. Peyton Manning can still play great football. At this moment, he's probably still a better QB than Andrew Luck. But don't you think the Colts are better off with the young guy?

At some point you need to think of your future as a franchise, and for the Argos the near future is critically more important than the present.

[T-Bone]

A couple of fans made it down to Shoeless Joe's tonight. Nice to meet some folks.
It was nice to meet you too Tau Ceti. Unfortunately Shoeless Joe's despite being the "official bar" of the Argos was not the greatest place to watch a game. Maybe we can find another place to watch away games.

[paulwoods13]

Paul, we've had this discussion before, and i'm sure we'll have it again.

IMO, the near future is more important than the present when it comes to the long-term health of the Argonauts franchise.

When the Argos move into their new home in 4 years, they will have more attention put on them than maybe ever before. So what kind of team will they have in 4 years? Will they be better off with a 38 year old, injury-prone former great, or with a young dynamic QB in the prime of his career?

You have to be honest that Ricky is getting more brittle with each passing year. Why leave it to chance that we can come up with another Collaros to replace Ricky in 4 years?

The 2007 Green Bay Packers faced a similar predicament. Their all-time great QB just completed his best season statistically in 10 years (http://www.nfl.com/player/brettfavre/2500606/careerstats). But they had the future to think of. It takes guts to think about future when you run a football team. They had a fabulous young QB, they weren't sure how he would do in the long run, but if they didn't use him, they would lose him.

That gutsy decision turned out pretty nice for the Packers.

The Colts did something similar a couple of years ago. Peyton Manning can still play great football. At this moment, he's probably still a better QB than Andrew Luck. But don't you think the Colts are better off with the young guy?

At some point you need to think of your future as a franchise, and for the Argos the near future is critically more important than the present.

Thanks for clarifying, Rich. I thought you had previously retreated to some extent from favouring Collaros over Ray. I respect your reasoning, but I disagree with it -- especially the characterization of RR as injury prone. The Packers example is intriguing but is also an outlier, IMO. Favre was 38 when the Pack let him go. (Manning was 36. RR is 33.)

[1argoholic]

Ricky Ray has to be your qb for the next five or more years. They can already put him in the Hall Of Fame. No one drops a ball into a receiver like Ray. As our O line continues to develop with our young Canadians we should be set. I don't see Callaros as an NFL qb and no telling if Ottawa would take him.

After years and years of complaining that our Toronto Argonauts couldn't find or develop our own rb's and qb's I'm confident in the staff we have. We finally don't have to be envious of Wally Buono. I'm sure if Barker and Milanovich stay with the organization for a good long haul we'll find the talent in years to come. Wally has always been able to fill holes at key positions.

[bluto]

just re-watched the game while i work out of the home-office this morning (afternoon now...), seemed to me like a game where the receivers dominated. Arthur and McDaniel were able to carve us up at times and likewise Inman and Chiles did it right back to them. the difference maker was Watkins. gawd i hope that guy stays healthy... such a weapon for us.

...as to the other ongoing discussion, i've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that we'll be losing Collaros for pretty much nothing (or exactly nothing). we don't have him under contract to deal him for an asset and we can't protect him at the expense of Ricky Ray (especially when we have other "potential-type" QBs in the stable... though he may be the brightest among them). to my eye, there will be 4 teams looking for a QB in the off season... and with a new CBA and a higher SMS, young mister Collaros has earned himself a nice salary bump... hopefully it comes from the West division (not that i wish the ignominy of having to go live in Winnipeg on anyone, but i'd much rather that happen than see him in any of the 3 East teams - who i also think will be on the hunt for new pivots).

[ArgoRavi]

B.C. was able to trade Mike Reilly to Edmonton just before free agency but I can't remember what they received in return though. Maybe the Argos could trade Collaros a couple of weeks before free agency and get a draft pick or something.

[Will]

Traded to Edmonton from B.C. on Jan. 31 ,2013 along with the Lions’ second round pick (14th overall) in the 2013 CFL Canadian Draft in exchange for Edmonton’s second round pick (11th overall) in the 2013 CFL Canadian Draft and a second round draft pick in the 2014 CFL Canadian Draft.

Sample size on Collaros also larger.

[Rich]

Traded to Edmonton from B.C. on Jan. 31 ,2013 along with the Lions’ second round pick (14th overall) in the 2013 CFL Canadian Draft in exchange for Edmonton’s second round pick (11th overall) in the 2013 CFL Canadian Draft and a second round draft pick in the 2014 CFL Canadian Draft.

Sample size on Collaros also larger.

Nobody's gonna trade anything for Collaros since he is fully expected to check out the opportunities down south.

[argotom]

Nobody's gonna trade anything for Collaros since he is fully expected to check out the opportunities down south. How do we know that, based on what evidence?

[Rich]

How do we know that, based on what evidence?


1. He is playing well enough to warrant it.
2. He has in the past tweeted his desire to play in the NFL.

[AngeloV]

How do we know that, based on what evidence?

AT, if you don't think it's every players goal to play in the NFL, Import or non-import, you are truly not thinking in reality.

[OV Argo]

1. He is playing well enough to warrant it.
2. He has in the past tweeted his desire to play in the NFL.


Collaros might garner some sort of NFL interest; but it will have nothing/zip-o to do with how well he is playing for the Argos this year - the NFL super-experts have little to no regard for CFL play and especially at certain positions - QB being one of them.

Collaros might get some sort of NFL look, IF he has some connections down there - eg. one of his ex-coaches being connected to recomend him to an NFL team in need; he isn't 6-5 or doen't run a 4.4 forty and wasn't a former top rated NFL prospect (even if he played great at Cincinatti in college ball) - SO - good luck to him with his NFL dream, but very unlikely he even gets a FA TC camp fodder type shot.

[Rich]

Collaros might garner some sort of NFL interest; but it will have nothing/zip-o to do with how well he is playing for the Argos this year - the NFL super-experts have little to no regard for CFL play and especially at certain positions

I think this is changing. Chad Kackert got a tryout call from the Jets last winter and it was highly unlikely it was because of his DivII college career. Clearly someone was impressed by what he did up here. And i suspect the Trestman factor will create a little more interest in the CFL among the super-experts down there.


Collaros might get some sort of NFL look, IF he has some connections down there - eg. one of his ex-coaches being connected to recomend him to an NFL team in need; he isn't 6-5 or doen't run a 4.4 forty and wasn't a former top rated NFL prospect (even if he played great at Cincinatti in college ball) - SO - good luck to him with his NFL dream, but very unlikely he even gets a FA TC camp fodder type shot.

Even if he doesn't land a contract he will likely spend February, March and April at least trying to land one, which will force some CFL teams who were coveting him as a potential starter to make other plans. This increases our chances of re-signing him next spring, perhaps to an incentive-laden contract that pays him big bonus money for each start during Ricky's annual injury layoff.

[argolio]

How do we know that, based on what evidence?The evidence is other guys who have gone south. If there is interest in him, and he gets enough of a signing bonus, then he'll almost certainly give it a shot.

[ArgoRavi]

What an interesting title to this Sun article: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/23/argos-watkins-kicks-it-up-a-notch

I am not a prude but maybe the Sun could have picked a title that didn't sound like it came from a 12 year-old.

[paulwoods13]

I think this is changing. Chad Kackert got a tryout call from the Jets last winter and it was highly unlikely it was because of his DivII college career. Clearly someone was impressed by what he did up here. And i suspect the Trestman factor will create a little more interest in the CFL among the super-experts down there.


I agree 100%. Trestman is turning heads down there. Milanovich may be the next guy to go to the NFL from the CFL (although he doesn't have nearly as much of a prior NFL connection as Trestman did).

I disagree with OV's belief that the NFL pays little heed to what happens on the field in Canada. The evidence -- the many players who have signed down there over the years, some of whom have gone on to be impact players -- certainly suggests otherwise.

[flafson]

Why wouldn't they check out the CFL? Cheap talent that would die for the chance.

[AngeloV]

The evidence is other guys who have gone south. If there is interest in him, and he gets enough of a signing bonus, then he'll almost certainly give it a shot.

I think he's young enough where signing bonus or not, if he's offered a contract, he will go.

[bluto]

Bears are 3-0.

the NFL will be acutely aware of what happens up here.

[Will]

Have to be cautious about the Bears. The last few years they've started hot, but faded down the stretch.

[bluto]

Have to be cautious about the Bears. The last few years they've started hot, but faded down the stretch.

said the Vikings fan hopefully...

[Will]

said the Vikings fan hopefully...

Hey, my Vikings are dead and buried at 0-3. Lousy coaching and a lousy quarterback can do that to you in the National Football League. But, it is still true about the Bears.

[AngeloV]

What an interesting title to this Sun article: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/23/argos-watkins-kicks-it-up-a-notch

I am not a prude but maybe the Sun could have picked a title that didn't sound like it came from a 12 year-old.

Once again the writer (this time Lankoff) shows how little he know (or cares?) about the team.


The secondary appears to be solidifying, with Watkins at one corner and Ricardo Colclough and Demetrice Morley splitting time at the other side. Alonzo Lawrence and Jalil Carter are entrenched at halfback, with Matt Black and Jermaine Gabriel at safety.

In what world is he seeing Morley and Colclough splitting time on the corner? Morley is playing half while Clocllough is playing SAM LB. Most Argos newspaper coverage these days is bordering on unreadable, IMO.

[argos1873]

I highly doubt ZC will be invited to an NFL training camp next year, not because he isn't interested, and not because the NFL has zero interest in CFL QBs, but because the NFL has next to zero interest in CFL QBs that have done next to nothing realistically in the CFL. ZC in reality has done nothing up here except play well, and win a couple of games, not even in a full season yet. He's not the first to do so, and countless CFL QBs have done the same and have not gotten a hint of interest. The list of CFL QBs who have gotten NFL interest is relatively small, and those that did, already had a resume in the CFL that includes such things as MOP wins, Grey Cup wins, statistical leading numbers. ZC has none of those yet. Maybe he will change some of those things later this year assuming Ray somehow doesn't come back, or gets injured again. But I'm pretty sure ZC is another CFL contract away from NFL interest, only IF he continues, and even improves his play.

There are those among us who are not even sure yet that ZC is the real deal in the CFL. Besides, has there even been any inkling of a hint that any NFL team has any interest in him so far?

[gilthethrill]

Once again the writer (this time Lankoff) shows how little he know (or cares?) about the team.



In what world is he seeing Morley and Colclough splitting time on the corner? Morley is playing half while Clocllough is playing SAM LB. Most Argos newspaper coverage these days is bordering on unreadable, IMO.

The newcomer Alonzo Lawrence is doing a fine job at receiver too!!!

[paulwoods13]

Once again the writer (this time Lankoff) shows how little he know (or cares?) about the team.



In what world is he seeing Morley and Colclough splitting time on the corner? Morley is playing half while Clocllough is playing SAM LB. Most Argos newspaper coverage these days is bordering on unreadable, IMO.

In Lankhof's defence, the Argos line up their LBs and DBs all over the place. Other than McCune who is almost always in the middle (more or less), the other two LBs, the five DBs and even supposed DE Shane Horton all appear to swap locations from play to play. I don't think there is really even a distinction between LBs and DBs any more in the latest incarnation of Jones's defence, and certainly there is virtually no distinction in the secondary. For instance, Watkins in theory always plays the boundary side corner, but I've seen him line up inside and outside, strong and weak side.

[paulwoods13]

I highly doubt ZC will be invited to an NFL training camp next year, not because he isn't interested, and not because the NFL has zero interest in CFL QBs, but because the NFL has next to zero interest in CFL QBs that have done next to nothing realistically in the CFL. ZC in reality has done nothing up here except play well, and win a couple of games, not even in a full season yet. He's not the first to do so, and countless CFL QBs have done the same and have not gotten a hint of interest. The list of CFL QBs who have gotten NFL interest is relatively small, and those that did, already had a resume in the CFL that includes such things as MOP wins, Grey Cup wins, statistical leading numbers. ZC has none of those yet. Maybe he will change some of those things later this year assuming Ray somehow doesn't come back, or gets injured again. But I'm pretty sure ZC is another CFL contract away from NFL interest, only IF he continues, and even improves his play.

There are those among us who are not even sure yet that ZC is the real deal in the CFL. Besides, has there even been any inkling of a hint that any NFL team has any interest in him so far?

Working in his favour is the fact that there is a shortage of good QBs in the NFL, and the fact that his style -- scrambling, somewhat swashbuckling -- has come into favour down there in recent years. I could certainly see an NFL team feeling he was worth inviting as one of four or five QBs in camp.

[OV Argo]

I agree 100%. Trestman is turning heads down there. Milanovich may be the next guy to go to the NFL from the CFL (although he doesn't have nearly as much of a prior NFL connection as Trestman did).

I disagree with OV's belief that the NFL pays little heed to what happens on the field in Canada. The evidence -- the many players who have signed down there over the years, some of whom have gone on to be impact players -- certainly suggests otherwise.

And Trestman said Anthon Calvillo was better than a lot of / could be starting for a lot NFL teams - so why wasn't he for the 10 years of his prime (not the past few years)?; if you believe NFL "scouts" are all over CFL on field play and go out of their ways to sign top CFL talent / all-stars each and every season - fair enough; and sure - I could site a long list of CFL players who went on the NFL - everybody gets that i think - but a lot of them were known US college stars or former NCAA top NFL draft prospects. My point would be - that if you went by on field CFL play - the list of guys signed by the NFL would be 10 to 50 x what it is now/recently (i.e. - Collaros, Mike Reilly, Lulay, Bo - L Mitchell and Druant would ALL be getting NFL shots as soon as they are available and not to mention the top 5 or 10 CFL receivers or the top 3 punters and place kickers or Cornish or Henoc Muamba & Adam Bighill or Chip Cox and so on, etc.) - but I've said before - thank gawd the NFL super-experts are often not that interested in proven CFL all-star talent - so we get to see them play up here ; and maybe Trestman will affect change there - we shall see.

[AngeloV]

In Lankhof's defence, the Argos line up their LBs and DBs all over the place. Other than McCune who is almost always in the middle (more or less), the other two LBs, the five DBs and even supposed DE Shane Horton all appear to swap locations from play to play. I don't think there is really even a distinction between LBs and DBs any more in the latest incarnation of Jones's defence, and certainly there is virtually no distinction in the secondary. For instance, Watkins in theory always plays the boundary side corner, but I've seen him line up inside and outside, strong and weak side.

Sorry Paul, not buying it. Too me, it is so obvious that it is a case of a writer not really knowing what he is writing about. If you're writing on football, you should know the game in and out. The CFL in general moves players around on defence depending on motion and coverages, but a base position should be know by the "expert" writing on it. Even in the NFL, teams occassionally line up a RB as a WR and LB moves over to cover him because it is his assignment. Does that mean Lankoff would think that LB is a corner?

[ArgoGabe22]

Sorry Paul, not buying it. Too me, it is so obvious that it is a case of a writer not really knowing what he is writing about. If you're writing on football, you should know the game in and out. The CFL in general moves players around on defence depending on motion and coverages, but a base position should be know by the "expert" writing on it. Even in the NFL, teams occassionally line up a RB as a WR and LB moves over to cover him because it is his assignment. Does that mean Lankoff would think that LB is a corner?

Problem is that the guys who actually know a bit football end up joining TSN (Masters, Schietti) and it's not like the Star actually has a beat writer. The Sun had Koshan before but I'm not sure if he was very knowledgeable.

[paulwoods13]

And Trestman said Anthon Calvillo was better than a lot of / could be starting for a lot NFL teams - so why wasn't he for the 10 years of his prime (not the past few years)?; if you believe NFL "scouts" are all over CFL on field play and go out of their ways to sign top CFL talent / all-stars each and every season - fair enough; and sure - I could site a long list of CFL players who went on the NFL - everybody gets that i think - but a lot of them were known US college stars or former NCAA top NFL draft prospects. My point would be - that if you went by on field CFL play - the list of guys signed by the NFL would be 10 to 50 x what it is now/recently (i.e. - Collaros, Mike Reilly, Lulay, Bo - L Mitchell and Druant would ALL be getting NFL shots as soon as they are available and not to mention the top 5 or 10 CFL receivers or the top 3 punters and place kickers or Cornish or Henoc Muamba & Adam Bighill or Chip Cox and so on, etc.) - but I've said before - thank gawd the NFL super-experts are often not that interested in proven CFL all-star talent - so we get to see them play up here ; and maybe Trestman will affect change there - we shall see.

Re Calvillo: I believe Trestman said that in the past few years, not during Calvillo's so-called prime. IMO his best years (i.e. his prime) were the years he was with Trestman. He was a much better QB at 38 than he was at 28, and no one in the NFL would take on a 38-year-old QB.

As for your other points, I respectfully disagree. The NFL is happy to find talent anywhere, but the players have to be suited to the NFL. One or two of the guys you mentioned (like Lulay and Cornish) could almost certainly make a roster down there but a lot of them couldn't, IMO. I can't see why you would cite Collaros, Reilly and Mitchell as examples of guys the NFL has ignored, because none of those guys had any real playing time in the CFL before this year. The NFL may very well be taking a look at all three (assuming they are all due to become free agents after this year -- I am guessing Reilly is not).

[paulwoods13]

Sorry Paul, not buying it. Too me, it is so obvious that it is a case of a writer not really knowing what he is writing about. If you're writing on football, you should know the game in and out. The CFL in general moves players around on defence depending on motion and coverages, but a base position should be know by the "expert" writing on it. Even in the NFL, teams occassionally line up a RB as a WR and LB moves over to cover him because it is his assignment. Does that mean Lankoff would think that LB is a corner?

It's a minor point in the story, and Lankhof is a generalist who is around the team only sporadically, not an everyday football beat writer. I'm pretty sure the last actual game he covered (where he could watch the secondary closely if he chose to do so) was the home game against Calgary, five games ago. And I am not at all convinced that he is truly wrong. I honestly don't think there are "base positions" with this defence, and have felt that way for some time. Only exceptions are McCune and the interior linemen -- everyone else moves around. IMO it's one of the reasons the defence struggled at first, and one of the reasons it has become quite effective lately.

[OV Argo]

Re Calvillo: I believe Trestman said that in the past few years, not during Calvillo's so-called prime. IMO his best years (i.e. his prime) were the years he was with Trestman. He was a much better QB at 38 than he was at 28, and no one in the NFL would take on a 38-year-old QB.

As for your other points, I respectfully disagree. The NFL is happy to find talent anywhere, but the players have to be suited to the NFL. One or two of the guys you mentioned (like Lulay and Cornish) could almost certainly make a roster down there but a lot of them couldn't, IMO. I can't see why you would cite Collaros, Reilly and Mitchell as examples of guys the NFL has ignored, because none of those guys had any real playing time in the CFL before this year. The NFL may very well be taking a look at all three (assuming they are all due to become free agents after this year -- I am guessing Reilly is not).

Trestman didn't see Calvillo in his prime IMO and he wouldn't know if Calvillo had improved from a few years before; and anyways, lots of NFL teams sign veteran QBs for depth and insurance - guys well into their 30s and some end up playing; Calvillo had already put up huge passing seasons and won a GC before Trestman arrived but the NFL super-experts had no use for him; and meanwhile, the Chiefs - to use one glaring example of useless stiffs who have played QB in the NFL - had on the roster and actually started a QB who couldn't even make 3rd string ( Palko (?)cut by the Als) on a team Calvillo was 1st stringer for. But hey - if you want to believe the NFL experts always know best and are always paying close attention to CFL play - have at er.

And i wasn`t saying Collaros, Reilly or Mitchell (or Lulay or Durant) were ignored by the NFL; what i was trying to say was that if the NFL pays so much attention to CFL QBing, then surely all 5 of the above mentioned guys will soon get an NFL look from at least one of the 30 some teams down there - given how well they have played QB in the CFL - at times anyways (showing good arm strength or accuracy, some mobility, moxie and leadership, etc.), and also given how many mediocre looking QBs we end up seeing getting an NFL shot eventually (due to injury or yanking a poor starter).

[argolio]

Besides, has there even been any inkling of a hint that any NFL team has any interest in him so far?No, though that's not something I would expect an NFL team to make public, especially during the season, and while Collaros is under contract. I think he's probably being scouted, but it's impossible to know what they think of Collaros. Was there any inkling of a hint that any NFL team had any interest in Cory Greenwood?

On the other hand, you could be right that there will be no interest in him. Time will tell.


And Trestman said Anthon Calvillo was better than a lot of / could be starting for a lot NFL teams - so why wasn't he for the 10 years of his prime (not the past few years)?Can't remember which year, but it was reported that AC turned the Steelers down a few years ago to back up Ben Roethlisberger.

And who really knows what other offers he may have had? Or if he was ever interested in pursuing any?

[OV Argo]

No, though that's not something I would expect an NFL team to make public, especially during the season, and while Collaros is under contract. I think he's probably being scouted, but it's impossible to know what they think of Collaros. Was there any inkling of a hint that any NFL team had any interest in Cory Greenwood?

On the other hand, you could be right that there will be no interest in him. Time will tell.

Can't remember which year, but it was reported that AC turned the Steelers down a few years ago to back up Ben Roethlisberger.

And who really knows what other offers he may have had? Or if he was ever interested in pursuing any?


Yep - the Steelers apparently had some interest in Calvillo as a back-up some years back; and meanwhile - probably dozens of NFL teams were trotting out starting QBs, let alone back-ups, who weren`t close to a top notch starter like Rohtleisberger - but i guess none of them had heard of Calvillo - for even a try-out. Would Calvillo have been interested in a possible NFL gig É - in his home country, in the big prestige league and a chance to maybe make triple to 10x more bucks than he was getting in the CFL É - i dunno, but maybe.

[argolio]

Calvillo was making good coin, and was well established in Montreal with the team, the community, and of course his family. He also had to balance almost guaranteed maximum playing time in the CFL versus potentially none in the NFL. Either he decided there were more reasons to stay than leave, or he never really gave the NFL much thought at all.

Maybe he'll write a book one day and talk more about it.

[jerrym]

It isn't reflected at Argonauts.ca yet, but today's transactions wire shows that we've put Robinson and Steele on the PR. So it seems clear that we prefer Colclough to Robinson at LB and Norwood to Steele at RB. Also, Porter has been released.
IMO, Norwood has been far superior to Steele or Porter. I liked Robinson at LB but I've been comfortable with Colclough.

[Argo57]

IMO, Norwood has been far superior to Steele or Porter. I liked Robinson at LB but I've been comfortable with Colclough.

Steele initially looked good but he is a small back who may not be physically durable enough for the long haul.

[argos1873]

Calvillo was making good coin, and was well established in Montreal with the team, the community, and of course his family. He also had to balance almost guaranteed maximum playing time in the CFL versus potentially none in the NFL. Either he decided there were more reasons to stay than leave, or he never really gave the NFL much thought at all.

Maybe he'll write a book one day and talk more about it.

Exactly, to some few people money isn't everything, especially when you are already making some decent cash. I'm sure a much younger AC might have been willing to follow a possible pipe dream, but I think life has probably been pretty good to AC in Montreal, in a way none of us will ever know, and with both feet on the ground, I bet AC turned down any alleged offer from the Steelers.

Let's put it this way. If AC has been making 400,000 over the last 10 years, that's a cool 4 mil, plus he starts every game, he has fun (until this year), and is a star. AC needed a backup job with the Steelers like a hole in the head, I'm betting.

[argolio]

Calvillo also didn't really establish himself as a starter until his late 20s, and he won his first Grey Cup at age 30. When the NFL shows interest in a CFL player, it's usually a starter in his mid-20s. Calvillo was either getting beat up in Hamilton or backing up Tracy Ham at that age.