David Braley to sell both teams in next 3 years, it says here

[shayman]

A report on remarks David Braley made at a fundraiser yesterday -

http://www.hamiltonnews.com/news/braley-proposes-selling-his-cfl-clubs/



“I will be selling them by the time I turn 75,” said Braley. “I have three years to go.”
The 72-year-old Ontario senator says he has been talking to three people interested in buying the Toronto Argonauts. In addition, Braley says there are about seven people interested in buying the B.C. Lions.

…

While selling the B.C. Lions will be easy because the franchise is doing well financially, Toronto, which he bought in 2010, will be more difficult, said Braley.
“They are still losing money,” said Braley. “We will eventually make money. We need a new stadium and I have three communities looking at land now. There is a fourth one as of today (Sept. 18).”
He said a location, and securing the money for a new facility should be completed within a year.
Some of the money will come from both the provincial and federal governments, he said.




A few basic mistakes in the article (MLSE does not own BMO Field; Varsity Stadium was not demolished) but some other interesting, if true, tidbits in there.

[Mulder]

Nothing we don't really know. I'd except that 4 communities to be Toronto, Markham, Mississauga and maybe Vaughn?

Hopefully they make the (Downsview) right choice.

[LLB997]

A report on remarks David Braley made at a fundraiser yesterday -

http://www.hamiltonnews.com/news/braley-proposes-selling-his-cfl-clubs/



A few basic mistakes in the article (MLSE does not own BMO Field; Varsity Stadium was not demolished) but some other interesting, if true, tidbits in there. Varsity stadium was demolished wasn't it . The new Varsity centre was built from the ground up.

[shayman]

Varsity stadium was demolished wasn't it . The new Varsity centre was built from the ground up.

True, technically, but to say the Argos considered relocating to Varsity Field at the University of Toronto, but it fell through. Varsity Stadium was demolished. in the context of "where can the Argos play now?" implies there's no stadium there and that's it not an option any more.

"It was rebuilt, but smaller" would be better. I seem to recall we actually played a game at Varsity Stadium recently.

[Ron]

True, technically, but to say the Argos considered relocating to Varsity Field at the University of Toronto, but it fell through. Varsity Stadium was demolished. in the context of "where can the Argos play now?" implies there's no stadium there and that's it not an option any more.

"It was rebuilt, but smaller" would be better. I seem to recall we actually played a game at Varsity Stadium recently.

IIRC there was another article a while back that said that exact phrase. (Varsity was demolished) Guess this writer made sure they did their homework by remembering that other article..

[Ron]

The 2014 Grey Cup will be played in Vancouver, the second time in four years.

When you look at how much Braley has done for the CFL. Then look how much he's lost doing all he's done. Looks like it's the CFL's way of payback that he gets to pocket three Grey Cup paydays in 4 years before he rides off.

[Tau Ceti]

Then look how much he's lost doing all he's done.

I'm sure this question has been asked around here a bajillion times, so apologies for the repetition, but does anyone have any solid knowledge on what the Argos losses actually are? Are they losing more than the 3 to 4 million they'll start bringing in annually from the new television deal?

[Ballstothewall]

I'm sure this question has been asked around here a bajillion times, so apologies for the repetition, but does anyone have any solid knowledge on what the Argos losses actually are? Are they losing more than the 3 to 4 million they'll start bringing in annually from the new television deal?

BC has made money for years and will sell in the 16 to 20 million ranged. He will make 15 to 17 million for his last and next grey cup. The Argos were losing 3 million a year when he bought them. I was told his Grey Cup win fall from the 2012 cup has covered his losses to date. From what I understand, with the new TV deal and increase Corp support,his losses are down to 1.5 million per year. The Argos are 5,000 paying fans away from being in the Black

[argotom]

Not to mention how Mr. Braley supported the league and teams during the near bankruptcy years of the 90's. Whatever he gets for the two teams, I would venture as a guess how it still may not get him within 50 cents on the dollar invested.

[Argo57]

BC has made money for years and will sell in the 16 to 20 million ranged. He will make 15 to 17 million for his last and next grey cup. The Argos were losing 3 million a year when he bought them. I was told his Grey Cup win fall from the 2012 cup has covered his losses to date. From what I understand, with the new TV deal and increase Corp support,his losses are down to 1.5 million per year. The Argos are 5,000 paying fans away from being in the Black

I for one hope Braley at least recoups all of his cash before he exits the league, the guy has been a saviour for the league thru good times and bad, wonder if the Argonauts exist today if he hadn't stepped up to purchase them!!

[ArgoRavi]

We shouldn't forget Braley's ownership of the Ticats from 1988-91. He bought the team from Harold Ballard. Back in those days, a crowd of 16k was considered to be a good one in Hamilton.

[Ron]

Ya, as Ravi and Argotom mentioned I was looking at more his total losses over the decades and not just the small amounts (in comparison) he's lost lately.

I remember all the flack he got for being the commissioner and having his name on the ball. In hindsight he was far far far less appreciated back then than he should have been.

[Treblecharger1]

How the heck is he going to convince the Federal and Provincial Goverments to fund this project? That has me scared a little bit.

I could see this being tied to the arena development going on up in Markham if in fact they are not looking at BMO ( Which I still think is where we end up)

[argos1873]

While I admire Braley's support for the CFL over the years, I don't feel sorry for him for the losses he's taken. He's owned 3 different clubs over the years, and has been around the league long enough, and is wise enough to know that owning a CFL team is not exactly the road to financial success. I'm pretty sure he knew what to expect when owning a franchise, and that a loss is very much a possibility. Luckily for us fans, he does it for the love of the game, and that he has the pockets to withstand certain losses. Think about it, we all have certain hobbies and interests that cost us money, be it restoring old cars, computers, charities, what have you. Mr. Braley happens to be in the financial position to be able to own CFL franchises as his hobby/interest (amongst other things). While I'm sure like everyone else, he would prefer a positive financial return on his interest, he knows very well, it might cost him a certain percentage of his income. I doubt he would have bought 2 more teams after the Ti-Cats if he were in it for the money. But that being said, us fans are lucky to have someone like him around.

[1argoholic]

I'd like to have the money back that I spent on booze while watching the Argos play. Some might call that a hobby.

[argos1873]

I'd like to have the money back that I spent on booze while watching the Argos play. Some might call that a hobby.

Hey if you can turn that into a money making or even a breakeven hobby let me know how.

[AngeloV]

Think about it, we all have certain hobbies and interests that cost us money, be it restoring old cars, computers, charities, what have you.

**cough** lap dances **cough**

[argolio]

How the heck is he going to convince the Federal and Provincial Goverments to fund this project? That has me scared a little bit. The Feds have an infrastructure fund that local municipalities can access if certain conditions are met (not sure what they are). I know Toronto is trying to get some of that money for the proposed Bloor-Danforth subway extension, and I think Winnipeg got some federal funding for their new stadium.

[Qman]

this isn't news. He says this every time he is on TV and radio in Vancouver.
He also always says he wants the right owner (hands-off caretaker style like himself) and premium price (over 15mil per franchise).

[Cordo]

You got to respect a guy like Braley & how committed he has been to Canadian football. When he leaves & is done with ownership, it will be a blow to the CFL. After he is gone, who is going to step up when there is an issue like he has done?

[ArgoRavi]

You got to respect a guy like Braley & how committed he has been to Canadian football. When he leaves & is done with ownership, it will be a blow to the CFL. After he is gone, who is going to step up when there is an issue like he has done?

Hopefully with the new TV contract and everyone seemingly financially viable, there won't be a need for anyone to step up in an emergency again.

[Tau Ceti]

I think Braley must have a specific municipality in mind. I really like the Portlands and Downsview for a stadium but I can't imagine the current Toronto city council voting anywhere near the money. I think Braley knows this and is looking for a suburb willing to spend on a landmark project. Given their hockey arena entanglement, I don't see Markham as obvious. Mississauga is similarly caught up in capital projects. So...

So... I think we're going to see a Vaughan announcement. Vaughan is a place I drive through and know nothing about, but it seems like the perfect exurban community to building a stadium in if you want to screw yourself. Maurizio Bevilacqua is the mayor, incidentally. My bet is we'll see him beside Braley at a press conference soon.

[argotom]

You got to respect a guy like Braley & how committed he has been to Canadian football. When he leaves & is done with ownership, it will be a blow to the CFL. After he is gone, who is going to step up when there is an issue like he has done?Yes absolutely, if only each of us in our own similar fashion was able to do/invest into our Canadian institutions we would be much further ahead then the current state of affairs of a wannabe Toronto world class city and everything that is American.

[paulwoods13]

I think Braley must have a specific municipality in mind. I really like the Portlands and Downsview for a stadium but I can't imagine the current Toronto city council voting anywhere near the money. I think Braley knows this and is looking for a suburb willing to spend on a landmark project. Given their hockey arena entanglement, I don't see Markham as obvious. Mississauga is similarly caught up in capital projects. So...

So... I think we're going to see a Vaughan announcement. Vaughan is a place I drive through and know nothing about, but it seems like the perfect exurban community to building a stadium in if you want to screw yourself. Maurizio Bevilacqua is the mayor, incidentally. My bet is we'll see him beside Braley at a press conference soon.


Mississauga, Oakville and Vaughan, according to someone who spoke to Braley a month or so ago. I think BMO is still the front-runner because it can be done with the least expense and already meets the other criteria set out by Chris Rudge (below), but we'll find out over the next year.

This is from the CP story by Dan Ralph:


Rudge said the Argos have talked with MLSE about BMO Field and hope to continue discussions but supported Braley’s statements that the club has other options. The ideal facility would be an open-air venue with a seating capacity of 29,000 and available parking for some 10,000 vehicles while being accessible via public transit. . . .

“There’s also being close to GO trains, subways and major highways while being accessible to public transit and having ample parking. All of these things have to be taken into consideration.”

[argotom]

Vaughan would appear to be the place, probably the most centrally located from east, west and north.

[Will]

Vaughan may be a tad north to be considered central, no?

[bluto]

if i were the Argos and was negotiating a big deal with MLSE to either sell the team, or to acquire rights to play at an upgraded BMO, it would behoove me to take concurrent negotiations with other municipalities to strengthen my bargaining position with MLSE (by being able to legitimately assert that i have options)... as well as possibly reveal a better situation that could be proposed by one of those municipalities.

imo, the Argos played this game before to their advantage and got a more favorable lease at Rogers centre (which has since been replaced by a shittier one) when they were undergoing talks to move to York/Varsity/wherever.

anyway, i guess i'm just trying to say that i think that talks of a new location elsewhere is a smokescreen (whether they are ongoing or not), and that the MLSE and/or BMO solution is nigh-inevitable.

[paulwoods13]

if i were the Argos and was negotiating a big deal with MLSE to either sell the team, or to acquire rights to play at an upgraded BMO, it would behoove me to take concurrent negotiations with other municipalities to strengthen my bargaining position with MLSE (by being able to legitimately assert that i have options)... as well as possibly reveal a better situation that could be proposed by one of those municipalities.

imo, the Argos played this game before to their advantage and got a more favorable lease at Rogers centre (which has since been replaced by a shittier one) when they were undergoing talks to move to York/Varsity/wherever.

anyway, i guess i'm just trying to say that i think that talks of a new location elsewhere is a smokescreen (whether they are ongoing or not), and that the MLSE and/or BMO solution is nigh-inevitable.

I agree completely. Seems very well played so far.

[argos1873]

Mississauga, Oakville and Vaughan, according to someone who spoke to Braley a month or so ago. I think BMO is still the front-runner because it can be done with the least expense and already meets the other criteria set out by Chris Rudge (below), but we'll find out over the next....

I hope Oakville is only being mentioned for bargaining leverage. Even Mississauga and Vaughan, but especially Oakville. You're almost in Hamilton by that point.

[Will]

I hope Oakville is only being mentioned for bargaining leverage. Even Mississauga and Vaughan, but especially Oakville. You're almost in Hamilton by that point.

Agreed. That's too far west as would anywhere in Durham.

[jerrym]

Below is an article from the Vancouver Sun dealing with Braley's sale of the two teams. Much of the information in the article has been noted elsewhere, but Braley does say the plan is to have a 27,000 to 29,000 seat stadium for the Argos. Negotiating with four communities and BMO field increases the competition and at least provides for a backup in case somebody backs out as occurred previously. Incidentally, the article notes that there are "six or seven parties interested in buying the Lions".

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/football/Senator+David+Braley+making+plans+sell+Lions+Toron to/8940618/story.html

[bluto]

Agreed. That's too far west as would anywhere in Durham.

if Mississauga isn't "too far west", then i call the closer parts of Durham (Pickering/Ajax) close enough.

:P

[Will]

if Mississauga isn't "too far west", then i call the closer parts of Durham (Pickering/Ajax) close enough.

:P

I also think Mississauga is too far west.

[argotom]

Vaughan is central from all sides including the city proper.

[bluto]

Vaughan is central from all sides including the city proper.

in a weird outside-the-box way, Vaughan might be the most central.

[Tau Ceti]

Here's a brief overview of what's planned for Vaughan Metropolitan
Centre: https://www.vaughan.ca/business/vaughan_metropolitan_centre/Pages/default.aspx.

The subway is slated to open in 2016. I'm personally opposed to the Argos leaving the city but if it does happen I think this is the spot they will go.

(https://www.vaughan.ca/business/vaughan_metropolitan_centre/Pages/default.aspx)

[AngeloV]

Here's a brief overview of what's planned for Vaughan Metropolitan
Centre: https://www.vaughan.ca/business/vaughan_metropolitan_centre/Pages/default.aspx.

The subway is slated to open in 2016. I'm personally opposed to the Argos leaving the city but if it does happen I think this is the spot they will go.

(https://www.vaughan.ca/business/vaughan_metropolitan_centre/Pages/default.aspx)

I've said this before, but if they aren't going to play in the city, then they more or less have to play all games on Saturday or Sunday. Even a Friday night game would have to start at 8pm rather than 7 or 7:30 to allow people working in the city or in other regions to get there comfortably on time.

[paulwoods13]

Vaughan may be geographically central, but you cannot get there from east or west of the city except by road. Public transit is not truly an option from Pickering/Whitby/Oshawa/Milton/Mississauga/Oakville/Burlington. How many people from those municipalities would be prepared to take GO Train to Union, then subway from Union to Vaughan (assuming there is a subway stop anywhere near a stadium location in Vaughan)? The Argos would risk losing customers from the east and west GTA who aren't prepared or able to drive. Would the number of fans who would stop going be at least offset by new fans? I assume that is a calculation the team is making; it strikes me as a big gamble, especially if there is a viable option that is served by transit routes as well as roads.

[Midnight Blue]

Vaughan may be geographically central, but you cannot get there from east or west of the city except by road. Public transit is not truly an option from Pickering/Whitby/Oshawa/Milton/Mississauga/Oakville/Burlington. How many people from those municipalities would be prepared to take GO Train to Union, then subway from Union to Vaughan (assuming there is a subway stop anywhere near a stadium location in Vaughan)? The Argos would risk losing customers from the east and west GTA who aren't prepared or able to drive. Would the number of fans who would stop going be at least offset by new fans? I assume that is a calculation the team is making; it strikes me as a big gamble, especially if there is a viable option that is served by transit routes as well as roads.

I agree, and the same argument works against Downsview to a certain extent, IMO.

Is there anywhere else available on the CNE grounds? The huge parking lot just east of BMO Stadium is where the Midway Carnival rides happen during the annual CNE (Canadian National Exhibition), but what about at the very western edge of the CNE grounds? Haven't driven past there lately, but it was another large parking lot, and if a Stadium is built there, perhaps parking can be moved to several floors underground, limited only by the Lake Ontario water table (parking on level B4 would be limited to towed-in float planes, and Chevy Vegas and AMC Pintos only).
Also, is there room between west of downtown on the Lakeshore, and east of the Portlands (south of Lakeshore Blvd.)? There seem to be empty grain silos there now, and plenty of open space. Also, I remember a huge lot east of Cherry St., just north of Lakeshore Blvd.

[paulwoods13]

I agree, and the same argument works against Downsview to a certain extent, IMO.

Is there anywhere else available on the CNE grounds? The huge parking lot just east of BMO Stadium is where the Midway Carnival rides happen during the annual CNE (Canadian National Exhibition), but what about at the very western edge of the CNE grounds? Haven't driven past there lately, but it was another large parking lot, and if a Stadium is built there, perhaps parking can be moved to several floors underground, limited only by the Lake Ontario water table (parking on level B4 would be limited to towed-in float planes, and Chevy Vegas and AMC Pintos only).
Also, is there room between west of downtown on the Lakeshore, and east of the Portlands (south of Lakeshore Blvd.)? There seem to be empty grain silos there now, and plenty of open space. Also, I remember a huge lot east of Cherry St., just north of Lakeshore Blvd.

I wouldn't put the "to a certain extent" qualifier on Downsview, Midnight. It is pretty much exactly as accessible or not (by public transit and car) as Vaughan is.

As for the CNE, room could no doubt be found there or on the grounds of the moribund Ontario Place, but it would make no sense to have two similarly-sized stadiums side by side. (It might make sense for the Argos to float the idea, though, to further entice MLSE to revamp BMO.) I can't see any govt money being contributed to any sort of new-stadium-at-CNE plan. (I have difficulty seeing why govts would contribute money to any project at all, actually, but I suppose if anyone can make it happen it is the senator.)

[Midnight Blue]

I wouldn't put the "to a certain extent" qualifier on Downsview, Midnight. It is pretty much exactly as accessible or not (by public transit and car) as Vaughan is.

As for the CNE, room could no doubt be found there or on the grounds of the moribund Ontario Place, but it would make no sense to have two similarly-sized stadiums side by side. (It might make sense for the Argos to float the idea, though, to further entice MLSE to revamp BMO.) I can't see any govt money being contributed to any sort of new-stadium-at-CNE plan. (I have difficulty seeing why govts would contribute money to any project at all, actually, but I suppose if anyone can make it happen it is the senator.)

Yeah, you're right about Downsview; I put in the qualifier since it's closer to the 401 and a shorter subway ride, but I hope that they don't put a Stadium there. Downtown would be ideal, but where (other than BMO)?

[flafson]

Vaughan may be geographically central, but you cannot get there from east or west of the city except by road. Public transit is not truly an option from Pickering/Whitby/Oshawa/Milton/Mississauga/Oakville/Burlington. How many people from those municipalities would be prepared to take GO Train to Union, then subway from Union to Vaughan (assuming there is a subway stop anywhere near a stadium location in Vaughan)? The Argos would risk losing customers from the east and west GTA who aren't prepared or able to drive. Would the number of fans who would stop going be at least offset by new fans? I assume that is a calculation the team is making; it strikes me as a big gamble, especially if there is a viable option that is served by transit routes as well as roads.

I disagree, it's as far away as Rogers center is to the rest of the GTA, the important thing is that it's a good central location with good road access and public transportation.
400 and 407 is a very easy place to get to IMO. I probably wouldn't want it anywhere north of that spot though.

[argotom]

Most of the people in my immediate region at the dome where my tickets have been for nearly 15 years drive to the game. I suspect there will be a lot more driving if it is accessible then the users of public transit. All you have to do is see the all day long traffic jams in the city. However this does not have to be one or the other, why not accommodate both, unlike the difficulties presented to us now driving downtown to the dome.

[Argo57]

Most of the people in my immediate region at the dome where my tickets have been for nearly 15 years drive to the game. I suspect there will be a lot more driving if it is accessible then the users of public transit. All you have to do is see the all day long traffic jams in the city. However this does not have to be one or the other, why not accommodate both, unlike the difficulties presented to us now driving downtown to the dome.

I take the Go-Train to the games (from Burlington) because I hate the downtown traffic, if the new stadium was situated in say Markham close to the 407 I would just drive.
I would still prefer that they play somewhere close to downtown T.O.

[paulwoods13]

I disagree, it's as far away as Rogers center is to the rest of the GTA, the important thing is that it's a good central location with good road access and public transportation.
400 and 407 is a very easy place to get to IMO. I probably wouldn't want it anywhere north of that spot though.

What public transportation is there from Burlington/Oakville/Mississauga/Pickering/Oshawa/Whitby? Far as I know, the only transit option from those regions is to take GO to Union Station, then take subway to Vaughan or Downsview -- a journey that would take between 90 and 120 minutes, depending on GO schedules.

Sure, 400 and 407 is easy to get to by road, when there is no traffic. Problem is some people aren't interested in or able to drive, and there is almost never no traffic.

Distance is not the issue, IMO. The issue is accessibility by all direct modes of transportation that are currently available -- train, subway, bus, streetcar as well as highway. Putting a stadium at Downsview or Vaughan (or Mississauga or Pickering) would eliminate direct public transit for a vast swath of current and potential customers. Something (as I've said) I assume the Argo brass is factoring into its decisions.

[paulwoods13]

Why not accommodate both, unlike the difficulties presented to us now driving downtown to the dome.

How? What option outside downtown would accommodate transit users as well as they are accommodated now?

I am really surprised to hear that some folks seem to think driving to Vaughan or Downsview would not be as difficult as driving downtown. Sure, it would be closer for some. But traffic is just as bad on 401/400 as it is on 427/DVP, as far as I know. And again, for every fan for whom a new stadium is closer and easier to get to, there would likely be one for whom it is farther away and harder to get to. Which is why I keep asking whether the number of those who would start going would at least match the number who would stop.

I think we all agree the Argos need more paying customers. Can they get them by moving to the suburbs, given that at least some existing customers are likely to stop going because they have no interest in travelling (by whatever means) to the new location? That's ultimately the question that will determine success or failure of any new stadium.

[flafson]

How? What option outside downtown would accommodate transit users as well as they are accommodated now?

I am really surprised to hear that some folks seem to think driving to Vaughan or Downsview would not be as difficult as driving downtown. Sure, it would be closer for some. But traffic is just as bad on 401/400 as it is on 427/DVP, as far as I know. And again, for every fan for whom a new stadium is closer and easier to get to, there would likely be one for whom it is farther away and harder to get to. Which is why I keep asking whether the number of those who would start going would at least match the number who would stop.

I think we all agree the Argos need more paying customers. Can they get them by moving to the suburbs, given that at least some existing customers are likely to stop going because they have no interest in travelling (by whatever means) to the new location? That's ultimately the question that will determine success or failure of any new stadium.

To be honest i care more about roof above my head than another 10 min drive, but i guess that is just me.
Besides, they are going to have subway from downtown to that area by 2016 so i think it negates most problems.
You also need to remember that driving from Oakville to Vaughan and Oakville to Downtown is about same distance and time by car. I have an office in Oakville and in Vaughan so i happen to know that part.

[Tau Ceti]

To be honest i care more about roof above my head than another 10 min drive, but i guess that is just me.
Besides, they are going to have subway from downtown to that area by 2016 so i think it negates most problems.
You also need to remember that driving from Oakville to Vaughan and Oakville to Downtown is about same distance and time by car. I have an office in Oakville and in Vaughan so i happen to know that part.

paulwoods13's basic points still holds: travelling to Vaughan from any other suburb by public transit is a two-stage journey rather than the current one stage journey. Granted most suburbanites drive but those who don't are generally the 20- and 30-somethings the Argos need to get out to games. That extra travel time (as well as the meh factor to hanging out in Vaughan on a weekend) will inevitably keep away a lot of potential fans.

The one countervailing factor would be choosing a suburb with enough civic sensibility to rally behind a stadium and the franchise. (On 590 the idea of a naming the team after a suburb was mentioned recently. Gasp!) I think Mississauga has that mojo, but it's too far west. Oshawa perhaps as well. Vaughan not so much. Half the people who live there moved in the last 25 years. Although I think it's the current front runner, I believe the team would lose more fans than it would gain relocating there.

[BATKINSON001]

paulwoods13's basic points still holds: travelling to Vaughan from any other suburb by public transit is a two-stage journey rather than the current one stage journey. Granted most suburbanites drive but those who don't are generally the 20- and 30-somethings the Argos need to get out to games. That extra travel time (as well as the meh factor to hanging out in Vaughan on a weekend) will inevitably keep away a lot of potential fans.

The one countervailing factor would be choosing a suburb with enough civic sensibility to rally behind a stadium and the franchise. (On 590 the idea of a naming the team after a suburb was mentioned recently. Gasp!) I think Mississauga has that mojo, but it's too far west. Oshawa perhaps as well. Vaughan not so much. Half the people who live there moved in the last 25 years. Although I think it's the current front runner, I believe the team would lose more fans than it would gain relocating there.

I would be happy if the argos came to durham, don't care where, would be amazing if Oshawa got it though i have no clue where they could put something the size of the Dome...

[Ron]

I would be happy if the argos came to durham, don't care where, would be amazing if Oshawa got it though i have no clue where they could put something the size of the Dome...

Chances are the Argos will leave the dome behind when they move so accommodating the dome should not be an issue.

[BATKINSON001]

Chances are the Argos will leave the dome behind when they move so accommodating the dome should not be an issue.

I am aware of that. I don't think my home town would have the space needed for something that size... maybe if they oret down GM... but that will not be happening any time soon... Pickering might work as they have. That land for that airport they had set aside...

[paulwoods13]

Besides, they are going to have subway from downtown to that area by 2016 so i think it negates most problems.

Not. As I have said, transit-using fans from west or east suburbs would have to take GO Train downtown (nowhere near the destination) then subway up to Vaughan/Downsview. A 90-120 minute journey that many would find unenticing, to say the least.

[flafson]

Not. As I have said, transit-using fans from west or east suburbs would have to take GO Train downtown (nowhere near the destination) then subway up to Vaughan/Downsview. A 90-120 minute journey that many would find unenticing, to say the least.

That is like me saying that if they move to Oakville, i will have to take a subway downtown and then GO train to Oakville (which will take me 2 hours) where i could just drive there in 40 minutes directly.
Besides, IF there is demand, you can just get a bus to drive directly to the new place from popular areas.

[flafson]

paulwoods13's basic points still holds: travelling to Vaughan from any other suburb by public transit is a two-stage journey rather than the current one stage journey. Granted most suburbanites drive but those who don't are generally the 20- and 30-somethings the Argos need to get out to games. That extra travel time (as well as the meh factor to hanging out in Vaughan on a weekend) will inevitably keep away a lot of potential fans.

The one countervailing factor would be choosing a suburb with enough civic sensibility to rally behind a stadium and the franchise. (On 590 the idea of a naming the team after a suburb was mentioned recently. Gasp!) I think Mississauga has that mojo, but it's too far west. Oshawa perhaps as well. Vaughan not so much. Half the people who live there moved in the last 25 years. Although I think it's the current front runner, I believe the team would lose more fans than it would gain relocating there.

They actually have a lot of hangouts places in that spot and anywhere else you move you will have a two stage journey simply because everyone's journey is different, if i was to use public transit right now to get to Rogers, it would take me 90-120 minutes, instead i drive there and it takes me 30 minutes. Unless ALL your base sits at a single point, there will never be a good spot like anyone could argue the current location is horrible.

[Mulder]

What public transportation is there from Burlington/Oakville/Mississauga/Pickering/Oshawa/Whitby? Far as I know, the only transit option from those regions is to take GO to Union Station, then take subway to Vaughan or Downsview -- a journey that would take between 90 and 120 minutes, depending on GO schedules.

Sure, 400 and 407 is easy to get to by road, when there is no traffic. Problem is some people aren't interested in or able to drive, and there is almost never no traffic.

Distance is not the issue, IMO. The issue is accessibility by all direct modes of transportation that are currently available -- train, subway, bus, streetcar as well as highway. Putting a stadium at Downsview or Vaughan (or Mississauga or Pickering) would eliminate direct public transit for a vast swath of current and potential customers. Something (as I've said) I assume the Argo brass is factoring into its decisions.

You grossly overestimate the usefulness of public transit accessible stadiums. People drive to games, and want to drive to games.

[ArgoGabe22]

You grossly overestimate the usefulness of public transit accessible stadiums. People drive to games, and want to drive to games.

Depends when the games are. College and NFL stadiums usually have no public transportation but they do play on Sunday. The odd Thursday and Monday night games also start much later than CFL games. As Angelo said before the games must be on weekends or start at 8-8:30 (which is highly unlikely. I doubt those coming from downtown on a weekday would be willing to drive to the new stadium.

[Mulder]

Depends when the games are. College and NFL stadiums usually have no public transportation but they do play on Sunday. The odd Thursday and Monday night games also start much later than CFL games. As Angelo said before the games must be on weekends or start at 8-8:30 (which is highly unlikely. I doubt those coming from downtown on a weekday would be willing to drive to the new stadium.

People coming from downtown don't goto Argo games to begin with, so why should the Argo's cater to them?

And pretty much every parking lot is packed around the ACC for Leafs games. While 1 Go Train each way is barely full (Approx 1,500 per train)

[ArgoGabe22]

People coming from downtown don't goto Argo games to begin with, so why should the Argo's cater to them?

Well let's say I take the early morning commute to Union station from Mississauga everyday. What are the chances of me taking the GO Train home and then get in the car to drive to Vaughn for a Friday night game? Reality is with a new staidum is that we will have no more Tues & Thurs games.

GO Train to and from Clarkson as well as the subway to Kipling does have considerable volume. Not packed to the brim but you do see groups of Argo fans as well as players and former players taking the train.

[Mulder]

Well let's say I take the early morning commute to Union station from Mississauga everyday. What are the chances of me taking the GO Train home and then get in the car to drive to Vaughn for a Friday night game? Reality is with a new stadium is that we will have no more Tues & Thurs games.
[/QUOTE]

Probably more of a chance than coming from work downtown, picking up spouse and kids, and heading all the way back downtown, especially since we already know most people who goto games are located in the 905.

Or even taking an hour GO Train ride for a drive that takes 30 minutes...

[bluto]

Probably more of a chance than coming from work downtown, picking up spouse and kids, and heading all the way back downtown, especially since we already know most people who goto games are located in the 905.

Or even taking an hour GO Train ride for a drive that takes 30 minutes...

i do that: into-the-city/home-to-905/drive-or-Go-back-for-the-game thing routinely and have no idea how guys who have to do the same thing but with families on weeknight games manage it. props to those of you who have to deal with that.

[dmont]

Here's a brief overview of what's planned for Vaughan Metropolitan
Centre: https://www.vaughan.ca/business/vaughan_metropolitan_centre/Pages/default.aspx.

The subway is slated to open in 2016. I'm personally opposed to the Argos leaving the city but if it does happen I think this is the spot they will go.

(https://www.vaughan.ca/business/vaughan_metropolitan_centre/Pages/default.aspx) There's a link there to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3uO9eU8SwI&feature=plcp
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(https://www.vaughan.ca/business/vaughan_metropolitan_centre/Pages/default.aspx) It's been a few months since I've been up there, but isn't there a crap-load of development going on there already? I seem to recall lots of big box stores and parking lots. A FutureShop/BestBuy, AMC theatre, Dave&Busters, IKEA etc. They plan on knocking that all down?
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(https://www.vaughan.ca/business/vaughan_metropolitan_centre/Pages/default.aspx) It's not a terrible location, although it's disappointing that it's out of the city. Something to keep in mind is that Highway 400 can be (and most often is) a nightmare on weekends during the summer with everyone headed up to cottage country. I still like Woodbine. Inside the city, highly accessible by car, and the 427 is not as big a cottage country artery as 400. Sure, 427 is a nightmare during rush hour, but games could be scheduled around it. In the years ahead, it will become much more accessible by public transit to people downtown. The UP express has limited stops and would drop fans off either 15 minutes away at the Weston GO station or 7 minutes away at Pearson. From there, it's a matter of shuttle service. Not easy, but not impossible. I don't ride the GO train much, but is there an easier way to get to Weston GO station than going all the way to Union first?
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(https://www.vaughan.ca/business/vaughan_metropolitan_centre/Pages/default.aspx) Sorry for the weird page breaks. I don't know why, but only on this forum and only on this laptop, I can't seem to skip lines using the enter key. Is it a Windows 8 thing? It may be a forum settings issue but I haven't figured it out yet.

[shayman]

One thing that's different about football is that its games can be thought of as destination events. You don't have a game every night of the week; you have one home game every couple of weeks, usually, and if that means you have to make a little more effort to get to the stadium, that shouldn't be a showstopper. Thursday night games way out in the country would be tough. Saturday afternoon games would be much more manageable. You're just doing it twice a month.

I'm slowly coming around to the idea that a suburban stadium might not be horrible. (As if we have a choice.)

signed,
"actual fan who lives in Toronto and likes the option of the subway to the game even though I usually drive."

[flafson]

It's been a few months since I've been up there, but isn't there a crap-load of development going on there already? I seem to recall lots of big box stores and parking lots. A FutureShop/BestBuy, AMC theatre, Dave&Busters, IKEA etc. They plan on knocking that all down?

That area is PACKED with stuff to do, almost as packed as going downtown where things are open almost 24/7.

[argotom]

Here is another thing that people who love the location of the dome and want to remain downtown conveniently forget. There is no parking around the stadium so the atmosphere(lack thereof) is horrible, bland, plastic etc.. Throw in a stadium in the burbs with let's say 5000 parking spaces around the stadium and all of a sudden there is atmosphere. Heck even tailgating Canadian style and precisely the way they have it in Calgary. I have been there. More atmosphere equals more people, equals a buzz, equals financial success etc..

[paulwoods13]

I personally think it would be risky to cut out a segment of your current and potential audience by moving to a location they can't or won't get to, especially when you already don't have enough paying customers. But it's entirely possible more new fans will start attending in a suburban location than the number of current fans who stop attending.

As I have said several times, if a suburban location is chosen and the number of fans buying tickets grows to the point the franchise is viable (and stays at that level once the novelty of the new stadium has worn off), the team will have made the correct decision. Conversely, if the team moves to the suburbs and attendance does not go up, sustainably, it could prove to be a colossal mistake. In the first case, those who are disenfranchised by the new location can either watch on TV or move on to other interests. In the second case, everyone -- those who like the location and those who don't -- could be left without a team to cheer for.

I haven't mentioned this before, but I also think it would be risky to forsake downtown for the suburbs in light of what has happened in North American sports -- and North American cities -- over the past two decades. Of course there are exceptions, but most recent stadium development seems to have been downtown, not out in the suburbs, and urban planners seem fairly convinced that is a good thing. The whole concept of suburbs (as places to escape the rat race, live more cheaply, have a small number of people use a lot of land, rely completely on cars to get anywhere, and so on) seems to have been overtaken by the growth in densely populated (and often economically booming) inner cities. Moving a stadium to the burbs at this point would strike me as awfully similar to building a giant bowl-shaped stadium with artificial turf just as other cities are realizing that old-fashioned parks with real grass and a lot of character are the way to go.

[paulwoods13]

Here is another thing that people who love the location of the dome and want to remain downtown conveniently forget. There is no parking around the stadium so the atmosphere(lack thereof) is horrible, bland, plastic etc.. Throw in a stadium in the burbs with let's say 5000 parking spaces around the stadium and all of a sudden there is atmosphere. Heck even tailgating Canadian style and precisely the way they have it in Calgary. I have been there. More atmosphere equals more people, equals a buzz, equals financial success etc..

What you care calling for could happen at BMO (assuming the laws were changed to allow it, a big assumption in this province). There certainly seems to be enough room for parking and tailgating at the Ex.

[argotom]

What you care calling for could happen at BMO (assuming the laws were changed to allow it, a big assumption in this province). There certainly seems to be enough room for parking and tailgating at the Ex.I am against BMO big time, it is on the X grounds and parking although somewhat scattered is limited at best. But let's say if it doesn't happen there, what then where does the team go and especially if MLSE is not buying the team then we can't use the crappy BMO regardless?

[AngeloV]

I personally think it would be risky to cut out a segment of your current and potential audience by moving to a location they can't or won't get to, especially when you already don't have enough paying customers. But it's entirely possible more new fans will start attending in a suburban location than the number of current fans who stop attending.

As I have said several times, if a suburban location is chosen and the number of fans buying tickets grows to the point the franchise is viable (and stays at that level once the novelty of the new stadium has worn off), the team will have made the correct decision. Conversely, if the team moves to the suburbs and attendance does not go up, sustainably, it could prove to be a colossal mistake. In the first case, those who are disenfranchised by the new location can either watch on TV or move on to other interests. In the second case, everyone -- those who like the location and those who don't -- could be left without a team to cheer for.

I haven't mentioned this before, but I also think it would be risky to forsake downtown for the suburbs in light of what has happened in North American sports -- and North American cities -- over the past two decades. Of course there are exceptions, but most recent stadium development seems to have been downtown, not out in the suburbs, and urban planners seem fairly convinced that is a good thing. The whole concept of suburbs (as places to escape the rat race, live more cheaply, have a small number of people use a lot of land, rely completely on cars to get anywhere, and so on) seems to have been overtaken by the growth in densely populated (and often economically booming) inner cities. Moving a stadium to the burbs at this point would strike me as awfully similar to building a giant bowl-shaped stadium with artificial turf just as other cities are realizing that old-fashioned parks with real grass and a lot of character are the way to go.

Paul, I am definitely with you on this. BMO is the logical place, and I'm pretty sure it's going to happen. I really have my doubts about another stadium being built anywhere in the GTA. Fact is, the Argos should have been there since it opened. With their lack of ticket sales, the dome is not ideal and their reputation takes a beating when people see a stadium being used with 30k + unused seats.

[Midnight Blue]

If, as it seems, that BMO is the only presently viable option for an Argos Stadium "Downtown", I wonder how difficult it would be to have a grass Stadium shared by both a Soccer and Football team? I understand that Football may chew up the grass, especially on rainy days, but I played Soccer in my early teens (the first year as Goaltender, since no one else wanted to, and later as Center Half-Back, since I had a boominng and accurate toe-kick), and dammit, we loved playing in the mud! As Goaltender, my first act on a muddy field was to do a spread-eagled face plant in the 3" puddle in the crease. Then, I was ready....

My point is, if the Argos and the TFC get a newly renovated Stadium, how feasible would it be to roll in new grass for say, alternating weekends, between the 40-yard Football lines (corressponding to center-field in Soccer), from one week to the next? In my experience of watching Football in the past (on grass --- the Football, and sometimes me), it seems like only the center of the field would mostly turn to mud. Let's not forget that Soccer has been played with human skulls in the past, and Football traditionally was always played on grass, so really, how difficult would it be to co-exist? Football on grass, lessens injuries, and extends careers; we would be the only CFL Stadium to play on natural grass (I believe Edmonton-Commonwealth was the last).

Seems like it could be a win-win situation, if we screw our heads on right.


Ka' Pla !

[paulwoods13]

I would love a grass field, and I believe it is more than doable. In the U.S., baseball and football have co-existed on grass for decades. Some fields get badly chewed up, but others are well maintained. If the powers that be are committed to seriously managing the field, I don't see why it couldn't work. Obviously a torrential rain would not help, but if there is good drainage and the field is used mostly or only for actual games, there's no reason why a grass field couldn't sustain usual amounts of rain.

[Ballstothewall]

The stadium will be built, and it will be built in North Markham, or Vaughn as part of a huge commercial development. The Argos will start the 2016 season in the new place. That is all I can say at this time. Choose to believe me or not, don't care, but BMO is out

[AngeloV]

The stadium will be built, and it will be built in North Markham, or Vaughn as part of a huge commercial development. The Argos will start the 2016 season in the new place. That is all I can say at this time. Choose to believe me or not, don't care, but BMO is out

You may be right, but BMO can't be counted out entirely. IF MLSE were to buy the Argos, they will be in BMO.

[Argo57]

Paul, I am definitely with you on this. BMO is the logical place, and I'm pretty sure it's going to happen. I really have my doubts about another stadium being built anywhere in the GTA. Fact is, the Argos should have been there since it opened. With their lack of ticket sales, the dome is not ideal and their reputation takes a beating when people see a stadium being used with 30k + unused seats.

Count me in on that thought Angelo, the most cost effective option by far and good location, downtown Go Train accessible and decent amount of parking, could be decently set up for tailgating.

[1argoholic]

We did notice today that some sizable machinery was excavating a large plot of farmland on the south side of Hwy 7 between Norwood and Peterborough. Just sayin. I'd be cool with that.

[AngeloV]

We did notice today that some sizable machinery was excavating a large plot of farmland on the south side of Hwy 7 between Norwood and Peterborough. Just sayin. I'd be cool with that.

Norwood? Would that mean that all big kicks would sail wide right?

[doubleblue]

We did notice today that some sizable machinery was excavating a large plot of farmland on the south side of Hwy 7 between Norwood and Peterborough. Just sayin. I'd be cool with that. There's a saying about people living in Dummer Township. "The farther you go (north) the dummer they get". :D

[argotom]

The stadium will be built, and it will be built in North Markham, or Vaughn as part of a huge commercial development. The Argos will start the 2016 season in the new place. That is all I can say at this time. Choose to believe me or not, don't care, but BMO is outI am with you. The only X factor would be if somehow MLSE bought the team then the crappy BMO becomes reality.

[ArgoRavi]

I am with you. The only X factor would be if somehow MLSE bought the team then the crappy BMO becomes reality.

Would you be okay with BMO, argotom, if MLSE renovated the stadium to the point where it is no longer "crappy"?

[argotom]

Would you be okay with BMO, argotom, if MLSE renovated the stadium to the point where it is no longer "crappy"?Ravi you might as well build new, as the cost for a major reno would likely equal to building a new stadium and more important at a better location. But if this is our only choice, I guess there is nothing left.