New Stadium Locations

[Neely2005]

I was wondering what everyone thinks is the best location for the new Argonauts stadium. As we all know the Argonauts have to vacate the Rogers Centre in 4 years (by 2017) although the agreement does say that they might consider letting the Argonauts stay 1 additonal year if their new stadium isn't ready yet.

I've heard the following locations mentioned as possibilities in the 416:

BMO Field
Woodbine Racetrack
Downsview
York University

How would you feel if the Argonauts moved to the 905? I think that these locations could work:

Markham
Vaughan
Richmond Hill

Markham is considering building an NHL sized hockey rink. Could a CFL sized stadium fit on these grounds too?

Buttonville Airport in Markham is about to close. It would be a great location for a new CFL sized stadium. It's on the 404 and close to the 407 & Highway 7. It's at the intersection of Woodbine Avenue & 16th Avenue both of which are 4 Lane streets with no parking allowed on the street.

Richmond Hill boarders Vaughan, Aurora & Newmarket and the 404, 407 & Highway 7 all pass through Richmond Hill. The Viva high speed buses connect to Finch Station and new Viva & YRT bus right of way lanes have just opened along Highway 7 and are comming to Yonge Street too. The Yonge Street Subway is in the planning stages of being extended from Finch to Highway 7. An extension of the 404 North of Newmarket is about to open.

Vaughan has the 400, 407 and Highway 7 passing through it and construction is already underway to extend the Subway north from Downsview Station into Vaughan.

It's my understanding that the majority of Argonauts fans are actually from the 905 Area Code, so perhaps it's time to consider moving the Argonauts to the 905? This would be similar to how the Ottawa Senators aren't actually located in Ottawa but are in the Ottawa suburb of Kanata.

[paulwoods13]

It's my understanding that the majority of Argonauts fans are actually from the 905 Area Code, so perhaps it's time to consider moving the Argonauts to the 905? This would be similar to how the Ottawa Senators aren't actually located in Ottawa but are in the Ottawa suburb of Kanata.

I've made this point in other threads and on other forums, but it bears repeating: even if it is true that the majority of Argo ticket-buyers live in the 905 area code, that is a massive agglomeration of many communities stretching from Oshawa/Whitby/Pickering in the east to Burlington/Hamilton/Niagara in the west. Someone living in Pickering is pretty unlikely to go to a game in Mississauga, say, just because the two cities share an area code.

The traffic woes last night, documented elsewhere in this forum, may actually enhance the case for BMO or some other downtown location, because at least with a downtown stadium there is an option from the suburbs that does not involve fighting traffic (GO Transit). If the stadium is put in any of the suburban locations that have been suggested, anyone who is not originating downtown will have virtually no choice but to drive. I would wager that traffic in all parts of the GTA (not just into and out of downtown) is only going to get worse in the next few decades.

I realize there are many Argo fans who would prefer to drive and feel it would be easier to drive to Woodbine/Downsview/York/etc., and for at least some of them (perhaps many of them) that is undoubtedly true. But there are others who would find getting there harder than it is currently, and there is a risk that those fans would not go to the new location. As I've said before, the Argo brass need to weigh that risk -- if they are reasonably sure they can pick up enough new paying customers to offset current paying customers who might be lost because of a move to the suburbs, then they can and should proceed if a suburban stadium is the best option. Personally I would be reluctant to risk chasing any existing fans away, considering the franchise needs more ticket buyers than it has now. But it's a fairly straightforward calculation they should be able to make.

[ArgoGabe22]

Mississauga is another one that was brought up before in an article with Braley. I vote "Other" for Mississauaga. My 2nd unselfish vote would be BMO.

I agree with Paul on this one. Heck we all want it close to our home for selfish reasons, myself included but I believe it has to be somewhere near the city's core. Therefore BMO is the best fit. Varsity would have been better but we all know what happened with that.

[Mulder]

I suspect these stadium threads will become much more frequent until something is announced.

[paulwoods13]

I suspect these stadium threads will become much more frequent until something is announced.

Yeah, it's amazing we haven't had much traffic on this topic lately. So get ready for a year or so of speculation.

In (slightly) related news, someone on riderfans has noted that Raptors play at home at 1 o'clock on Nov. 17, and speculated the Eastern Final might be moved to prime time. Speaking personally I would be in favour of that. I'd hate waiting all day for it to start, but the buzz created by a prime-time game would be cool, IMO. I thought the atmosphere and buzz were amazing at the 2004 Eastern Semifinal although a lot of that was likely due to its Friday night time slot.

[Mulder]

Yeah, it's amazing we haven't had much traffic on this topic lately. So get ready for a year or so of speculation.

In (slightly) related news, someone on riderfans has noted that Raptors play at home at 1 o'clock on Nov. 17, and speculated the Eastern Final might be moved to prime time. Speaking personally I would be in favour of that. I'd hate waiting all day for it to start, but the buzz created by a prime-time game would be cool, IMO. I thought the atmosphere and buzz were amazing at the 2004 Eastern Semifinal although a lot of that was likely due to its Friday night time slot.

Saw that as well. Maybe tweeted the commish. I suspect TSN already has commitments for Sunday night football though.

[ArgoZ]

Raps, Real Sports, then Argos. Sounds like an awesome day.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Saw that as well. Maybe tweeted the commish. I suspect TSN already has commitments for Sunday night football though.

TSN 2 for NFL

[matchuk]

talk about traffic, wait 'till the 17th of november....raptors game + santa claus parade + eastern final = chaos

[ArgoRavi]

Yeah, it's amazing we haven't had much traffic on this topic lately. So get ready for a year or so of speculation.

In (slightly) related news, someone on riderfans has noted that Raptors play at home at 1 o'clock on Nov. 17, and speculated the Eastern Final might be moved to prime time. Speaking personally I would be in favour of that. I'd hate waiting all day for it to start, but the buzz created by a prime-time game would be cool, IMO. I thought the atmosphere and buzz were amazing at the 2004 Eastern Semifinal although a lot of that was likely due to its Friday night time slot.

Back in 2003-05, the league had playoff games at 3:30 pm and 7:00 pm EDT and those times certainly worked well for TV ratings and didn't work too badly for attendance either. I think that most of us on here can fondly recall the Argos beating the Als on a Sunday night in the '04 East Final before 50k at the Big Owe and a large prime time audience on CBC. You are right, Paul, that the Friday night playoff game worked out beautifully for the Argos. I think that moving the East Final this year to 4:00 pm with the West Final right after would work nicely. The Argos drew 44k for an East Final at SkyDome that started at 3:30 pm IIRC in 2005.

[Tau Ceti]

I've made this point in other threads and on other forums, but it bears repeating: even if it is true that the majority of Argo ticket-buyers live in the 905 area code, that is a massive agglomeration of many communities stretching from Oshawa/Whitby/Pickering in the east to Burlington/Hamilton/Niagara in the west. Someone living in Pickering is pretty unlikely to go to a game in Mississauga, say, just because the two cities share an area code.

Agree completely. "The suburbs" is not a single location that can be easily catered to. BMO Field is the best of all possible evils.

Also agree about moving the game time up for the eastern final but you'd think they'd already have determined that if it was going to happen. Tickets for the 1:00 pm slot went on sale within minutes of last night's win.

[flafson]

Did you guys see the game between Carolina and Tampa Bay on Thursday? Tampa Bay's grass looks dead. If we play with Toronto FC in BMO, it will be the same.

[Deerkeeper]

Back in 2003-05, the league had playoff games at 3:30 pm and 7:00 pm EDT and those times certainly worked well for TV ratings and didn't work too badly for attendance either. I think that most of us on here can fondly recall the Argos beating the Als on a Sunday night in the '04 East Final before 50k at the Big Owe and a large prime time audience on CBC. You are right, Paul, that the Friday night playoff game worked out beautifully for the Argos. I think that moving the East Final this year to 4:00 pm with the West Final right after would work nicely. The Argos drew 44k for an East Final at SkyDome that started at 3:30 pm IIRC in 2005.Those start times would be nice, but as Mulder said, this is TSN doing. It was a lot easier back then with CBC as they were a lot more flexible with their schedule. Prime sports property or not, TSN is still hot for the NFL.
It is going to be a mess downtown that Sunday. 40000 (hopefully) for the east final, 200k for the parade and a couple of dozen for the bouncingball game. This all could have been avoided, but as we all know, it's all Chris Rudge's fault. Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm just mocking some posters on this and other football forms.

I'm still a firm believer in Downsview. I like the idea on being downtown in the Portlands, but I can't see anything happening there until the next iceage retreats. Downsview seems to be the best available spot, right at the old supply depot. It's central to pretty much everywhere, right on a GO and subway station with lots of room to park and party.

[paulwoods13]

Downsview seems to be the best available spot, right at the old supply depot. It's central to pretty much everywhere, right on a GO and subway station with lots of room to park and party.

As far as I know, Downsview does not have a GO station at the moment, but the TTC's website for its proposed York-Spadina subway extension says GO Transit "has committed to cost sharing for this fully-integrated, multi-modal transit facility." Even if that happens (and with transit planning in the GTA, who knows?) the station presumably will be part of a northern GO line and not accessible from east or west. So for those who rely on transit and/or hate to drive in Toronto traffic, getting there would be an ordeal if they live anywhere other than on the subway line or the northern line served by that new GO station.

[ArgoZ]

Did you guys see the game between Carolina and Tampa Bay on Thursday? Tampa Bay's grass looks dead. If we play with Toronto FC in BMO, it will be the same.

What is your reasoning? Will those darn soccer players ruin our grass? LOL.

[Neely2005]

I've made this point in other threads and on other forums, but it bears repeating: even if it is true that the majority of Argo ticket-buyers live in the 905 area code, that is a massive agglomeration of many communities stretching from Oshawa/Whitby/Pickering in the east to Burlington/Hamilton/Niagara in the west. Someone living in Pickering is pretty unlikely to go to a game in Mississauga, say, just because the two cities share an area code.

The traffic woes last night, documented elsewhere in this forum, may actually enhance the case for BMO or some other downtown location, because at least with a downtown stadium there is an option from the suburbs that does not involve fighting traffic (GO Transit). If the stadium is put in any of the suburban locations that have been suggested, anyone who is not originating downtown will have virtually no choice but to drive. I would wager that traffic in all parts of the GTA (not just into and out of downtown) is only going to get worse in the next few decades.

I realize there are many Argo fans who would prefer to drive and feel it would be easier to drive to Woodbine/Downsview/York/etc., and for at least some of them (perhaps many of them) that is undoubtedly true. But there are others who would find getting there harder than it is currently, and there is a risk that those fans would not go to the new location. As I've said before, the Argo brass need to weigh that risk -- if they are reasonably sure they can pick up enough new paying customers to offset current paying customers who might be lost because of a move to the suburbs, then they can and should proceed if a suburban stadium is the best option. Personally I would be reluctant to risk chasing any existing fans away, considering the franchise needs more ticket buyers than it has now. But it's a fairly straightforward calculation they should be able to make.

The problem with BMO Field is for people that have to drive or take the TTC. Yes there is GO Train access (depending on the start & end time of the game and where you're coming from) if you're coming from the East or the West. However if you're coming from the North it's brutal to get to and the TTC access is a joke. I've taken the TTC to BMO Field for TFC Games and to the Exhibition Grounds for Marlies Games & for Concerts at the Molson Amphitheater and it's brutal. If you're lucky the TTC will run a few extra Streetcars into the Exhibition grounds but nowhere near enough and you end up literally having to fight to get on the Streetcar and then you're crammed in there like a sardine.

On top of that there's nowhere near enough parking and the parking that there is, is very expensive. Plus a lot of parking disappears for the 3 Weeks or so that the CNE is on.

Then there's the issues with the Stadium itself. It's like a poor mans version of the old Ivor Wynne, albeit newer and in better condition.

As to a Stadium in the Suburbs if it's relativley close to Yonge Street and/or Highway 7 there will be excellent Transit options via the Viva High Speed Buses and the regular YRT Buses and you can take the Subway to Finch Station - and hopefully one day soon all the way to Highway 7. You can also take the Subway to Downsview and soon you'll be able to take it all the way into Vaughan.

For me the BMO Field location is one of the worst possibilities as I'm coming from the North end of Toronto. I probably wouldn't renew my Seasons Tickets if they go to BMO Field. It's just a terrible location for me personally. The funny thing is that 'it's so close, yet so far' from the current location at the Rogers Centre.


Mississauga is another one that was brought up before in an article with Braley. I vote "Other" for Mississauaga. My 2nd unselfish vote would be BMO.

I agree with Paul on this one. Heck we all want it close to our home for selfish reasons, myself included but I believe it has to be somewhere near the city's core. Therefore BMO is the best fit. Varsity would have been better but we all know what happened with that.

Sorry I should have made Mississauga an option, didn't think of that.

Personally I'm glad that they didn't go to Varsity. That location is a nightmare for anyone who has to drive and there is very little parking.

[1argoholic]

I guess no site would be good for us at this point. Living ten minutes north of Norwood makes any venture to an Argo game tough. I guess for selfish reasons anything east of the downtown would be cool. Who knows what will happen with future transit or hwy development towards Peterborough. Hell we're just excited to have picked a great place to call home.

[shayman]

Speaking of traffic - I'm hoping that if we wind up in a new stadium, the Argos will have better control of dates. Meaning, no more weeknight games. Wherever the stadium is, and I'm still hoping for downtown - traffic won't be nearly as much of an issue if we're playing on Saturday afternoons.

I bet many people would think better of Skydome if they weren't constantly fighting weekday rush hour traffic to get there.

[Neely2005]

Speaking of traffic - I'm hoping that if we wind up in a new stadium, the Argos will have better control of dates. Meaning, no more weeknight games. Wherever the stadium is, and I'm still hoping for downtown - traffic won't be nearly as much of an issue if we're playing on Saturday afternoons.

I bet many people would think better of Skydome if they weren't constantly fighting weekday rush hour traffic to get there.

I actually don't mind the Rogers Centre. Close to the DVP, the Gardiner and the Lakeshore. Plus very close to the Subway and GO. As I get older I really enjoy having the roof to keep me warm and dry too!

As to dates I can't imagine that they can get any worse than this season.

[paulwoods13]

The problem with BMO Field is for people that have to drive or take the TTC. Yes there is GO Train access (depending on the start & end time of the game and where you're coming from) if you're coming from the East or the West. However if you're coming from the North it's brutal to get to and the TTC access is a joke. I've taken the TTC to BMO Field for TFC Games and to the Exhibition Grounds for Marlies Games & for Concerts at the Molson Amphitheater and it's brutal. If you're lucky the TTC will run a few extra Streetcars into the Exhibition grounds but nowhere near enough and you end up literally having to fight to get on the Streetcar and then you're crammed in there like a sardine.

There's no site anywhere that is immune to traffic from all directions. If it's brutal to drive to BMO from the north (and I'm sure it is), it must also be brutal to drive to Rogers Centre from the north. Just as it can be brutal to drive to RC from the west (it certainly was on Friday night, at least) and from the east quite often. No matter where the stadium ends up, driving there will involve fighting traffic for anyone who does not live within a couple of kilometres. The point I've been trying to make is that at least downtown (or at the Ex), you have an option to get there -- from all directions -- that does not require you to drive in Toronto traffic. Anywhere outside the downtown core will eliminate that option for at least some paying customers. If the team can offset any losses from that group with gains from other customers, moving to the suburbs would be a good idea. If not, it won't be.

I don't disagree that the leg of the journey from subway to Ex can be unpleasant on crowded streetcars, but Argo fans put up with that for 30 years when the team played at the Ex.


Then there's the issues with the Stadium itself. It's like a poor mans version of the old Ivor Wynne, albeit newer and in better condition.

I think it's fairly certain (based on comments from Leiwecke) that the stadium is going to be renovated extensively, whether or not the Argos become a tenant or partner, so I don't think the current setup should be seen as what we'd be moving into.


As to a Stadium in the Suburbs if it's relativley close to Yonge Street and/or Highway 7 there will be excellent Transit options via the Viva High Speed Buses and the regular YRT Buses and you can take the Subway to Finch Station - and hopefully one day soon all the way to Highway 7. You can also take the Subway to Downsview and soon you'll be able to take it all the way into Vaughan.

There are no high-speed buses that I know of from west of the city or east of the city to the area you are speaking of. Someone living in Oakville, Burlington or Milton (and presumably Pickering/Oshawa/Whitby although I am not positive about that) would need to take GO train to Union, then subway to the stadium. A journey that would take 90 minutes or more from most locations. If GO ever adds a route that goes across the top of Toronto from the eastern and western suburbs, it would be a different story, but I think that's unlikely as there already seems to be a shortage of usable rails.

[argolio]

If GO ever adds a route that goes across the top of Toronto from the eastern and western suburbs, it would be a different story, but I think that's unlikely as there already seems to be a shortage of usable rails.I don't think the issue is shortage of usable rails as much as no high concentrations of employment in the burbs, and certainly nothing approaching downtown. You only have to look at the Yonge subway line, which is over-capacity with 6-car trains running every 90-120 seconds, while Sheppard, a totally suburban line, is at or below capacity with 4-car trains running every 5 minutes.

[Neely2005]

There's no site anywhere that is immune to traffic from all directions. If it's brutal to drive to BMO from the north (and I'm sure it is), it must also be brutal to drive to Rogers Centre from the north. Just as it can be brutal to drive to RC from the west (it certainly was on Friday night, at least) and from the east quite often. No matter where the stadium ends up, driving there will involve fighting traffic for anyone who does not live within a couple of kilometres. The point I've been trying to make is that at least downtown (or at the Ex), you have an option to get there -- from all directions -- that does not require you to drive in Toronto traffic. Anywhere outside the downtown core will eliminate that option for at least some paying customers. If the team can offset any losses from that group with gains from other customers, moving to the suburbs would be a good idea. If not, it won't be.

I don't disagree that the leg of the journey from subway to Ex can be unpleasant on crowded streetcars, but Argo fans put up with that for 30 years when the team played at the Ex.



I think it's fairly certain (based on comments from Leiwecke) that the stadium is going to be renovated extensively, whether or not the Argos become a tenant or partner, so I don't think the current setup should be seen as what we'd be moving into.



There are no high-speed buses that I know of from west of the city or east of the city to the area you are speaking of. Someone living in Oakville, Burlington or Milton (and presumably Pickering/Oshawa/Whitby although I am not positive about that) would need to take GO train to Union, then subway to the stadium. A journey that would take 90 minutes or more from most locations. If GO ever adds a route that goes across the top of Toronto from the eastern and western suburbs, it would be a different story, but I think that's unlikely as there already seems to be a shortage of usable rails.

Surprisingly even though they're pretty close it's much easier to drive and park at/near the Rogers Centre from the North than it is to BMO Field. Wth the Rogers Centre you have the DVP, Gardiner, Lakeshore and City Streets. When driving to BMO Field it's not practical to use the Gardiner due to the lack of exits in the area. And there are much fewer parking options at BMO Field - especially when the CNE is on.

Yes hopefully they follow through with the improvements to BMO Field, especially the partial roof.

It's true that there aren't any high speed buses from that far out but if the stadium was located in Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham or even at Woodbine Racetrack it becomes Much easier to drive to due to the Highways - 401, 407, 404, 427, 409 and to a lesser extent the 410, 403, 50, 27 & 7.

The Highway options are just so much better in Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham and at Woodbine Racetrack.

BMO Field has limited highway options, limited transit options and limited parking options. It's pretty much the hardest location possible to get to, much worse than the Rogers Centre.

[cflsteve]

Another often overlooked factor in where to build the stadium would be the sale of the corporate suites. For modern pro sports this is a sizable stream of revenue. Someone correct if I am mistaken but it appears that the suites at RC for Argo games are empty. So although RC may not have great seating for the fans sitting in the seats the suites in RC are first class as will be in any new stadium built.
For corporations there are too many options to where they would acquire a suite for hosting clients or for employees. Summer has the Jays and TFC going head to head with the Argos in the downtown area.
Markham is home to several multi national corporations main Canadian HQ; IBM, Motorola, Toshiba, etc.
The sales of suites are crucial to the new stadiums. Winnipeg is sold out with a waiting list. In Regina the temp seating that was placed in the end zone also included suites which sell out for games. Montreal's renovations included upgraded suites which I believe are also sold out on a regular basis.
So even if the Argos built a stadium downtown they would probably not have as much success in regards with the sale of suites with competition from the other 4 MLSE and Rogers owned franchise.
In Markham they will be the only game in town and the corporations are right there for easy access for say a big friday night football game on TSN after work, Thursday night games in the summer and all the comforts needed for a weekend afternoon game as the weather begins to get cold in the fall

[jerrym]

Another often overlooked factor in where to build the stadium would be the sale of the corporate suites. For modern pro sports this is a sizable stream of revenue. Someone correct if I am mistaken but it appears that the suites at RC for Argo games are empty. So although RC may not have great seating for the fans sitting in the seats the suites in RC are first class as will be in any new stadium built.
For corporations there are too many options to where they would acquire a suite for hosting clients or for employees. Summer has the Jays and TFC going head to head with the Argos in the downtown area.
Markham is home to several multi national corporations main Canadian HQ; IBM, Motorola, Toshiba, etc.
The sales of suites are crucial to the new stadiums. Winnipeg is sold out with a waiting list. In Regina the temp seating that was placed in the end zone also included suites which sell out for games. Montreal's renovations included upgraded suites which I believe are also sold out on a regular basis.
So even if the Argos built a stadium downtown they would probably not have as much success in regards with the sale of suites with competition from the other 4 MLSE and Rogers owned franchise.
In Markham they will be the only game in town and the corporations are right there for easy access for say a big friday night football game on TSN after work, Thursday night games in the summer and all the comforts needed for a weekend afternoon game as the weather begins to get cold in the fall

Welcome on board, cflsteve.

[Argo57]

Another often overlooked factor in where to build the stadium would be the sale of the corporate suites. For modern pro sports this is a sizable stream of revenue. Someone correct if I am mistaken but it appears that the suites at RC for Argo games are empty. So although RC may not have great seating for the fans sitting in the seats the suites in RC are first class as will be in any new stadium built.
For corporations there are too many options to where they would acquire a suite for hosting clients or for employees. Summer has the Jays and TFC going head to head with the Argos in the downtown area.
Markham is home to several multi national corporations main Canadian HQ; IBM, Motorola, Toshiba, etc.
The sales of suites are crucial to the new stadiums. Winnipeg is sold out with a waiting list. In Regina the temp seating that was placed in the end zone also included suites which sell out for games. Montreal's renovations included upgraded suites which I believe are also sold out on a regular basis.
So even if the Argos built a stadium downtown they would probably not have as much success in regards with the sale of suites with competition from the other 4 MLSE and Rogers owned franchise.
In Markham they will be the only game in town and the corporations are right there for easy access for say a big friday night football game on TSN after work, Thursday night games in the summer and all the comforts needed for a weekend afternoon game as the weather begins to get cold in the fall

All good points, everything would change if MLSE bought the team, they would have no issues with private box sales if that were to happen.

[ArgoRavi]

All good points, everything would change if MLSE bought the team, they would have no issues with private box sales if that were to happen.

I honestly believe that this is where things are headed with the Argos' new home being BMO Field. Braley isn't going to put one dime into a brand, new stadium when he is planning on selling the team within the next couple of years and I don't see government money going to any new stadium as well. A renovated BMO Field could probably be ready by 2015 or 2016.

[cflsteve]

I honestly believe that this is where things are headed with the Argos' new home being BMO Field. Braley isn't going to put one dime into a brand, new stadium when he is planning on selling the team within the next couple of years and I don't see government money going to any new stadium as well. A renovated BMO Field could probably be ready by 2015 or 2016.

I think that would be true if there was a stadium to be built in Downtown Toronto but building a stadium outside of Toronto could be part of a land redevelopment project as well as $$$ from local govt in the municipalities outside of Toronto. Also private dollars from one of the several major multi national corporations that are based in Markham.
Clearly is a project that will be looking to many partners in and around the Municipality it is built in.
With no news at all on this at this time everything is just speculation.
I just cannot see them reversing the BMO philosophy at this point. Not just for TFC fans but also city of Toronto would most likely want to continue as being the main training location for the National Soccer teams. The CMT almost moved to Montreal with Saputo having the best surface at the time and having the high quality natural soccer surface at BMO will keep them there.

[shayman]

When driving to BMO Field it's not practical to use the Gardiner due to the lack of exits in the area. And there are much fewer parking options at BMO Field - especially when the CNE is on....

BMO Field has limited highway options, limited transit options and limited parking options. It's pretty much the hardest location possible to get to, much worse than the Rogers Centre.


I'm not sure I understand this argument. From the west, exit at Jameson and you're almost right there; from the east, (downtown) exit at Spadina and it's not THAT far.
Limited transit? GO Trains right at the door with half-hourly service east and west. From the GO perspective this is an ideal location. (I agree, TTC streetcar service could be better.)
Limited parking? It's surrounded by parking lots. The tailgate scene might actually be pretty good.

[rdavies]

With no news at all on this at this time everything is just speculation.

I just cannot see them reversing the BMO philosophy at this point. Not just for TFC fans but also city of Toronto would most likely want to continue as being the main training location for the National Soccer teams. The CMT almost moved to Montreal with Saputo having the best surface at the time and having the high quality natural soccer surface at BMO will keep them there.I don't think BMO is the main training centre of Canadian soccer NTs. It (BMO/Toronto) is basically a hub, that has easy flight access, a turf surface, and is home to many of the players. That's what makes it attractive. I don't recall hearing about any serious danger of moving to Montreal as most of the NT extended training camps were usually held at the Nottawasaga Inn Resort in Alliston. Most of the time the players (spread across NA and Europe) fly in for a few days of training before a game at BMO.

Their comfort level with BMO is unfortunate as they are virtually unknown in the country. Whereas the popular women's NT play around the country (on AT surfaces) so far the men have not. And when you have great facilities like BC and Winnipeg not being used (by the men), it's a shame. Maybe the Argentines and Brazilians won't play on AT but certainly many other countries won't mind accepting appearance fees.

The only way BMO enters the argument is if MLSE buys the Argos. If not it is entirely credible that Braley will put together his own stadium plan. He has made public pronouncements and it seems unlikely to me that a man of his integrity would bother or risk doing that if it wasn't his intention. I just wish this thing would come to a head one way or another.

Braley's comments on the record: In the halftime interview of the Lions/Argos game he said:

Question: You've done this in British Colombia...I remember coming here and thinking I'm seeing the last days of the BC Lions when you'd have nine, ten, twelve thousand

Braley: In BC we did the demographics, we've now completed the demographics in Toronto we've got 14% Italian fans in Toronto so you've got to build your marketing programs and programs around the demographic and once you do that and reach out and touch them then they start to become your partners and Waterboys and in our case our Double Blues Club in Toronto.

It's a very slow hard working process but you're also fighting the big leagues in the sense of Major League Baseball and hockey. We had the best attendance and atmosphere for a home game in Toronto, I think it was 28 or 29 thousand last week for our home opener in Toronto. Everybody's talking about the buzz and if we start putting them in regularly we can bring those fans back to the Canadian Football League in Toronto

What we intend to do is have a 27-29 thousand seat stadium in all likelihood in north Toronto, Vaughan, Markham maybe Mississauga and the plans are being worked on outside the Argonauts themselves, they're to sell tickets and put the house in order for the team. Outside I have my construction companies working on where we would be and where we could set up and where we could build a stadium and who's gonna fund it

Question: Do you have a timeline?

Braley: Under 5 years. They (Rogers) wouldn't kick us out on the street if we needed an extra year but it would be best if we had our own facility, if it's three years fine if it's four years fine if it's six years it'll come to pass.




Braley proposes selling his CFL clubs (http://www.hamiltonnews.com/news/braley-proposes-selling-his-cfl-clubs/)
Kevin Werner, News Staff September, 19, 2013

...

Braley, speaking to about 60 people at a Progressive Conservative party fundraiser Sept 18 at the Lakeview in Hamilton, the Burlington resident said he is also looking at building a new stadium for the Argonauts. Already, there are four municipalities with land that would accommodate a new facility, he said.

While selling the B.C. Lions will be easy because the franchise is doing well financially, Toronto, which he bought in 2010, will be more difficult, said Braley.

“They are still losing money,” said Braley. “We will eventually make money. We need a new stadium and I have three communities looking at land now. There is a fourth one as of today (Sept. 18).”

He said a location, and securing the money for a new facility should be completed within a year.

Some of the money will come from both the provincial and federal governments, he said.

The Argonauts were looking to sign a new lease agreement to play at the Rogers Centre earlier this month. But it is expected their time at the facility will be short lived. The Toronto Blue Jays are looking at replacing the facility’s artificial turf and replace it with grass.

[cflsteve]

I don't think BMO is the main training centre of Canadian soccer NTs. It (BMO/Toronto) is basically a hub, that has easy flight access, a turf surface, and is home to many of the players. That's what makes it attractive. I don't recall hearing about any serious danger of moving to Montreal as most of the NT extended training camps were usually held at the Nottawasaga Inn Resort in Alliston. Most of the time the players (spread across NA and Europe) fly in for a few days of training before a game at BMO.

Their comfort level with BMO is unfortunate as they are virtually unknown in the country. Whereas the popular women's NT play around the country (on AT surfaces) so far the men have not. And when you have great facilities like BC and Winnipeg not being used (by the men), it's a shame. Maybe the Argentines and Brazilians won't play on AT but certainly many other countries won't mind accepting appearance fees.

The only way BMO enters the argument is if MLSE buys the Argos. If not it is entirely credible that Braley will put together his own stadium plan. He has made public pronouncements and it seems unlikely to me that a man of his integrity would bother or risk doing that if it wasn't his intention. I just wish this thing would come to a head one way or another.

Braley's comments on the record: In the halftime interview of the Lions/Argos game he said:

Question: You've done this in British Colombia...I remember coming here and thinking I'm seeing the last days of the BC Lions when you'd have nine, ten, twelve thousand

Braley: In BC we did the demographics, we've now completed the demographics in Toronto we've got 14% Italian fans in Toronto so you've got to build your marketing programs and programs around the demographic and once you do that and reach out and touch them then they start to become your partners and Waterboys and in our case our Double Blues Club in Toronto.

It's a very slow hard working process but you're also fighting the big leagues in the sense of Major League Baseball and hockey. We had the best attendance and atmosphere for a home game in Toronto, I think it was 28 or 29 thousand last week for our home opener in Toronto. Everybody's talking about the buzz and if we start putting them in regularly we can bring those fans back to the Canadian Football League in Toronto

What we intend to do is have a 27-29 thousand seat stadium in all likelihood in north Toronto, Vaughan, Markham maybe Mississauga and the plans are being worked on outside the Argonauts themselves, they're to sell tickets and put the house in order for the team. Outside I have my construction companies working on where we would be and where we could set up and where we could build a stadium and who's gonna fund it

Question: Do you have a timeline?

Braley: Under 5 years. They (Rogers) wouldn't kick us out on the street if we needed an extra year but it would be best if we had our own facility, if it's three years fine if it's four years fine if it's six years it'll come to pass.

There you have it they have studied the demographics and the location will be in the North GTA suburbs, straight from owner himeself. The fans are not coming into downtown Toronto on a regular basis so Braley will bring the Argos to where the fans are for the CFL. Peel, York, and Durham.
York is in the center and as the roadways will not be great for everyone they York Area has 1.2 million itself and each of the other two regions will have areas that border the York Area on the left and the right so there access could be reasonable. As for public transportation people in the suburbs like to drive so getting into your car and driving to the game in an area with ample parking sets up a nice tailgaiting situation.
Also looking what is going on around other cities in North America expanding in to now bigger populated areas in the suburbs for a franchise that sits 3rd or 4th in the pecking order of city teams is working in many places.
The Argos will not be among the top 3 in the city anytime is this generation or two. NHL, MLB, and NBA are just too big to compete with and the Argos have fallen out of favor for sometime now. If they did stay in Toronto they would at best be competing for a distant 4th with TFC.
Time to move to a new area and start something new in that now very populated area. Times have changed and the Argos are seeing that change is best for them.
Too many people are looking at this as a bad thing and dont see what a good thing it can be.
Toronto is unique in this way with the other two big Metros have NHL, CFL, and MLS. No MLB and or NBA and the MLS teams are still very new so the CFL is still at number two.
For Toronto you also need to factor in Hamilton Ti Cats as anyone to the south of Toronto are Hamilton Ti Cats fans

[Qman]

The stadium will be built where it is cheap to build (ie. edge of burbs) because braley has said time-and-time again he will not put money into a stadium. Money will come from development (requirement by developer to build the stadium as part of a large commercial/condo development where they make big $$$ on rezoning/development) and some provincial/local funds. Braley will probably be part of the development group and make $$$ that way. The stadium will be like Tim Hortons ... Not as nice as IGF but not a pseudo stadium like BMO or Saputo. Selling point a city is use of the field in winter (under a bubble) and springtime. Its a huge risk for argos if fans don't follow them. But you could say over time, they will be able to market more effective y with all with SME businesses in 407/401 belt and fill prime/club seats and boxes that way ... thats where the money is made in to CFL selling the 14,000 seats between the 20's for $700 per season and boxes. All the $20-30 seats outside that zone are just window dressing. Thats why Ticats are fine with a 22k stadium. My guess is probably way out in vaughn/markham.

Don't see BMO as a option as they will never get the 75-100 million in gov't funding to bring that stadium up to professional standards (two roofs over the side stands, more luxury boxes/club seating, professional seating, second deck/xtra seating, movable soccer seats in end zones, etc) and I don't see MLSE kicking in real $$$ into soccer. MLSE believes gov't money will be directed to some Argos project and they want to leach off it. Argos might get a better facility with $100m more into BMO, but in the end Argos will want to control their own facility after deaiing with rogers all these years.

[rdavies]

Where Braley's head is at, re new Toronto stadium...

Braley says Pan Am stadium in wrong location (http://www.hamiltonnews.com/news/braley-says-pan-am-stadium-in-wrong-location/)
Kevin Werner, News Staff hamiltonnews.com September, 19, 2013

“If I was to build it, I would not be building it on the site its being built,” said Braley.

The Burlington resident and Ontario senator told about 60 people during a fundraising event Sept. 18 at the Lakeview on Van Wagner’s Beach Road, said if Confederation wasn’t available, then the next option should have been to drop it on 100 acres of land, and then add commercial and retail building, including a hotel, to support it. He said it would have benefited the city’s business community, and for Hamilton’s economic development sector.

“We should have developed the land with retail, and hotels” (that other municipalities have done, including Ottawa), said Braley.

[Argo57]

The stadium will be built where it is cheap to build (ie. edge of burbs) because braley has said time-and-time again he will not put money into a stadium. Money will come from development (requirement by developer to build the stadium as part of a large commercial/condo development where they make big $$$ on rezoning/development) and some provincial/local funds. Braley will probably be part of the development group and make $$$ that way. The stadium will be like Tim Hortons ... Not as nice as IGF but not a pseudo stadium like BMO or Saputo. Selling point a city is use of the field in winter (under a bubble) and springtime. Its a huge risk for argos if fans don't follow them. But you could say over time, they will be able to market more effective y with all with SME businesses in 407/401 belt and fill prime/club seats and boxes that way ... thats where the money is made in to CFL selling the 14,000 seats between the 20's for $700 per season and boxes. All the $20-30 seats outside that zone are just window dressing. Thats why Ticats are fine with a 22k stadium. My guess is probably way out in vaughn/markham.

Don't see BMO as a option as they will never get the 75-100 million in gov't funding to bring that stadium up to professional standards (two roofs over the side stands, more luxury boxes/club seating, professional seating, second deck/xtra seating, movable soccer seats in end zones, etc) and I don't see MLSE kicking in real $$$ into soccer. MLSE believes gov't money will be directed to some Argos project and they want to leach off it. Argos might get a better facility with $100m more into BMO, but in the end Argos will want to control their own facility after deaiing with rogers all these years.

I believe the plan is for MLSE to kick $100 mil+ into BMO themselves, if this is the case the I think they will in fact purchase the Argonauts to maximize the return on their investment. This also would be the easiest way for Braley to divest himself of the team without all the work and time it would take to build a new facility elsewhere.
I think all this talk of other sites is simply "posturing" by Braley to up the ante with MLSE so that they don't appear to be the only option.
Let's face it, the guy is 72 years old and may want a quick exit from this franchise.

[cflsteve]

I believe the plan is for MLSE to kick $100 mil+ into BMO themselves, if this is the case the I think they will in fact purchase the Argonauts to maximize the return on their investment. This also would be the easiest way for Braley to divest himself of the team without all the work and time it would take to build a new facility elsewhere.
I think all this talk of other sites is simply "posturing" by Braley to up the ante with MLSE so that they don't appear to be the only option.
Let's face it, the guy is 72 years old and may want a quick exit from this franchise.

This could certainly be true but it is possible that Braley, a huge CFL fan, could want to build a stadium that will be the Argos stadium. All of his support of the CFL over the years has been fantastic and leaving a stadium behind could be something that would define his legacy as one of the great CFL supporters in history.
The MLSE sinking 100 million into BMO they would be better off building a new stadium.
One of the stadiums that the MLSE has looked at modeling BMO after is PPL park home of the Union which is estimated to cost about 130 million in 2013 to build.

[QBall]

For me the BMO Field location is one of the worst possibilities as I'm coming from the North end of Toronto. I probably wouldn't renew my Seasons Tickets if they go to BMO Field. It's just a terrible location for me personally. The funny thing is that 'it's so close, yet so far' from the current location at the Rogers Centre.

That's kind of funny you should say that because there are a lot of Toronto FC fans who said they wouldn't renew their season's tickets if the Argos came to BMO. I was watching the TFC/Montreal game yesterday and there was a banner hanging on the lowest rail of the south stands almost behind the net which said "No Argos at BMO". Apparently many believe the Argos would ruin the grass, plus most don't want to see American football field markings (either fresh or covered up which you can never do 100%) on the field when they're trying to watch TFC play. So looks like the biggest pushback regarding the Argos at BMO will be TFC fans, however if MLSE buys the Argos, which would be the best thing for the Argos in my opinion, then it's a foregone conclusion that the Argos would move into a rebuilt BMO.

[rdavies]

American football?


I think all this talk of other sites is simply "posturing" by Braley to up the ante with MLSE so that they don't appear to be the only option. Let's face it, the guy is 72 years old and may want a quick exit from this franchiseI don't think Braley is in any hurry to divest the Argos, it's not like he's hard up for cash. If age had anything to do with it he could sell the Lions much easier than the Argos.

I think he's looking for the best long term solution for the Argos and certainly isn't posturing. If there is any apprehension I would think it is a reluctance to build a new stadium when you're not 100% sure if the Argos can make a real resurgence in the market. That's why it would have to be part of a larger development deal to have some part of the development assured to make money


One of the stadiums that the MLSE has looked at modeling BMO after is PPL park home of the Union which is estimated to cost about 130 million in 2013 to build.If the Argos become a part of MLSE's band of losers (save financially) they're looking at 27-29k seats, a roof and a form of winterization to the structure, far beyond PPL Park. It's gonna cost a few shekels.

[Ron]

American football?

The type of "football" played in North America. Not the real football played everywhere.

[Neely2005]

I'm not sure I understand this argument. From the west, exit at Jameson and you're almost right there; from the east, (downtown) exit at Spadina and it's not THAT far.
Limited transit? GO Trains right at the door with half-hourly service east and west. From the GO perspective this is an ideal location. (I agree, TTC streetcar service could be better.)
Limited parking? It's surrounded by parking lots. The tailgate scene might actually be pretty good.

The Jamieson exit either puts you onto Jamieson which is a 2 lane (Total) city street with on street parking or onto Lakeshore which means that you have to either exit onto Ontario which is also a 2 lane street (with 1 center turn lane) or onto Strahan which only has 1 Northbound lane. It's the same thing if you get off at Spadina.

Also the Dufferin Street bridge is closed for the next few years for construction.

The only GO line that services the Exhibition GO Station is the Lakeshore West line. The other lines all go into Union Station. Also it doesn't run every 30 minutes, especially on weekends. Yes it's surrounded by Small, Expensive parking lots that disappear during the CNE and the Indy race.

Try getting to BMO Field from the North or East or by TTC, it's brutal. It's really only accessible if you happen to live on the Lakeshore West GO Line.

[QBall]

American football?

When talking about soccer and football in the same post I always like to write Amercian football as some still picture soccer when someone says "Football".

[Neely2005]

I don't think BMO is the main training centre of Canadian soccer NTs. It (BMO/Toronto) is basically a hub, that has easy flight access, a turf surface, and is home to many of the players. That's what makes it attractive. I don't recall hearing about any serious danger of moving to Montreal as most of the NT extended training camps were usually held at the Nottawasaga Inn Resort in Alliston. Most of the time the players (spread across NA and Europe) fly in for a few days of training before a game at BMO.

Their comfort level with BMO is unfortunate as they are virtually unknown in the country. Whereas the popular women's NT play around the country (on AT surfaces) so far the men have not. And when you have great facilities like BC and Winnipeg not being used (by the men), it's a shame. Maybe the Argentines and Brazilians won't play on AT but certainly many other countries won't mind accepting appearance fees.

The only way BMO enters the argument is if MLSE buys the Argos. If not it is entirely credible that Braley will put together his own stadium plan. He has made public pronouncements and it seems unlikely to me that a man of his integrity would bother or risk doing that if it wasn't his intention. I just wish this thing would come to a head one way or another.

Braley's comments on the record: In the halftime interview of the Lions/Argos game he said:

Question: You've done this in British Colombia...I remember coming here and thinking I'm seeing the last days of the BC Lions when you'd have nine, ten, twelve thousand

Braley: In BC we did the demographics, we've now completed the demographics in Toronto we've got 14% Italian fans in Toronto so you've got to build your marketing programs and programs around the demographic and once you do that and reach out and touch them then they start to become your partners and Waterboys and in our case our Double Blues Club in Toronto.

It's a very slow hard working process but you're also fighting the big leagues in the sense of Major League Baseball and hockey. We had the best attendance and atmosphere for a home game in Toronto, I think it was 28 or 29 thousand last week for our home opener in Toronto. Everybody's talking about the buzz and if we start putting them in regularly we can bring those fans back to the Canadian Football League in Toronto

What we intend to do is have a 27-29 thousand seat stadium in all likelihood in north Toronto, Vaughan, Markham maybe Mississauga and the plans are being worked on outside the Argonauts themselves, they're to sell tickets and put the house in order for the team. Outside I have my construction companies working on where we would be and where we could set up and where we could build a stadium and who's gonna fund it

Question: Do you have a timeline?

Braley: Under 5 years. They (Rogers) wouldn't kick us out on the street if we needed an extra year but it would be best if we had our own facility, if it's three years fine if it's four years fine if it's six years it'll come to pass.

"North Toronto, Vaughan, Markham maybe Mississauga".

Mississauga doesn't work for me but North Toronto, Vaughan & Markham will all work well for me. (Yes I know that it's not just about me but I mentioned in my previous posts why I think that those are good loacations)

So there you go, the only way that we end up at BMO Field is if MLSE buys the Argonauts. So there's yet another reason against the perennial losers at MLSE buying our Argonauts.

Everything that MLSE touches gets expensive and uncompetitive.

Hopefully a better owner than MLSE is found!




Subway extension into Richmond Hill:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/hudak-would-extend-subways-scrap-lrts-as-ontario-premier/article15113241/

This has been in the planning for years. Hopefully they get the shovels in the ground soon as this extension made more sense than the Vaughan extension which is already under way.

[rdavies]

When talking about soccer and football in the same post I always like to write Amercian football as some still picture soccer when someone says "Football".Canadian football would be the proper term, as opposed to Australian or American football.

[matchuk]

The only GO line that services the Exhibition GO Station is the Lakeshore West line. The other lines all go into Union Station. Also it doesn't run every 30 minutes, especially on weekends. Yes it's surrounded by Small, Expensive parking lots that disappear during the CNE and the Indy race.

the go train along lakeshore DOES run every thirty minutes/7 days a week as of this summer past

[shayman]

the go train along lakeshore DOES run every thirty minutes/7 days a week as of this summer past

And of course most of the Lakeshore East trains continue on through Union and become Lakeshore West trains. You have every-30-minute service to Exhibition GO station all the way from Hamilton to Oshawa.

BMO may have its faults, but lack of GO access is not one of them.

[bluto]

maybe i'm crazy, but i think that the deal is all but done at this point.

(we all have gone through this same discussion enough times that i hope that it is anyway...)

i dreamt of a IGF Stadium type home for the Argos being built in a Toronto area with easy highway access and tons of room for parking (like Downsview Park)... but at this time money, politics and circumstances are all pointing in one direction.

imo, all discussion and explorations of building a facility from scratch somewhere in the 905 area was designed to elicit a particular response from an entity that would very much not like for that to happen... and it appears to have been a successful gambit since the Pres and CEO of that company has been making publicly quoted statements about a possible future with the Argos...

i think it's done and that it'll be official in the off-season (after the Argos become back to back champs of course)

EDIT: so anyway, i didn't vote because i wanted a big, shiny new stadium but i think we're getting a lightly used, newly expanded and dolled-up stadium.

[ArgoZ]

Canadian football would be the proper term, as opposed to Australian or American football.

The world refers to the system of downs and forward pass game, as American football, to differentiate from football (soccer). Canadians are North Americans, so it is proper. As much as we would like to take credit for inventing the game, the version we play today is made up from mostly American rules.

[Argo57]

I don't think Braley is in any hurry to divest the Argos, it's not like he's hard up for cash. If age had anything to do with it he could sell the Lions much easier than the Argos.

I think he's looking for the best long term solution for the Argos and certainly isn't posturing. If there is any apprehension I would think it is a reluctance to build a new stadium when you're not 100% sure if the Argos can make a real resurgence in the market. That's why it would have to be part of a larger development deal to have some part of the development assured to make money

I think he just said he wants to sell the Argo franchise by his 75th birthday, which leaves less than 3 years.
The planning, financing of a large development project will take a lot of time and cash, thus in my opinion the easiest and most feasible option probably is MLSE and a renovated BMO Field.

[Neely2005]

the go train along lakeshore DOES run every thirty minutes/7 days a week as of this summer past


And of course most of the Lakeshore East trains continue on through Union and become Lakeshore West trains. You have every-30-minute service to Exhibition GO station all the way from Hamilton to Oshawa.

BMO may have its faults, but lack of GO access is not one of them.

Then I guess I'm reading the schedule on the GO Transit website wrong because from what I can see it doesn't show 30 Minute Train service 7 days a week.

I'll take your word that the Lakeshore East trains go to BMO Field too but even still that means only 2 GO Train lines go to Exhibition Stadium and only the Lakeshore West line always goes directly there. Realistically anyone coming from 905 North (Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham, Aurora, Newmarket etc.) isn't going to be able to get to BMO Field via transit and anyone in the 416 is going to have a very difficult time getting there on TTC due to the limited streetcar access to BMO Field.

[argolio]

Subway extension into Richmond Hill:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/hudak-would-extend-subways-scrap-lrts-as-ontario-premier/article15113241/

This has been in the planning for years. Hopefully they get the shovels in the ground soon as this extension made more sense than the Vaughan extension which is already under way.Hudak can say anything right now, but it's anyone's guess what the PCs will actually do about transit if they win the next election. The last PC government certainly didn't live up to the transit legacy set by Bill Davis and John Robards.

Even if they were to start this tomorrow, you're talking at least five years until it's finished. And it's extremely doubtful a new stadium would be anywhere near Yonge Street in York Region. Any extra land along the proposed subway route is zoned for high density projects.

[Tau Ceti]

Even if they were to start this tomorrow, you're talking at least five years until it's finished. And it's extremely doubtful a new stadium would be anywhere near Yonge Street in York Region. Any extra land along the proposed subway route is zoned for high density projects.

Agreed there's no way Richmond Hill works on the timeline needed for the Argos. I do think that Vaughan Metropolitan Centre is in the cards though: https://www.vaughan.ca/business/vaughan_metropolitan_centre/Pages/default.aspx. Here's the map: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=109447644225050941501.0004436008e4412c6b850&ll=43.795369,-79.527476&spn=0.007868,0.014462&z=16&om=1&iwloc=0004436011e2e39c222a6

[shayman]

Then I guess I'm reading the schedule on the GO Transit website wrong because from what I can see it doesn't show 30 Minute Train service 7 days a week.

Train schedules are notoriously hard to read - but here is this Saturday's schedule.

http://www.gotransit.com/timetables/en/schedules/schedules_window.aspx?tableid=01&dir=E&date=2013-11-02&corridorname=Lakeshore%20West&parentid=1

(Aargh, link might not work. Go to gotransit.com , click Schedules, look for 15-18 Lakeshore West)

Eastbound trains arrive at Exhibition at 08:00, 09:00, 10:00, 11:00, 11:30, 12:00, 12:30 (... every half hour continues ...) 22:00, 22:30, 23:00, 00:01.

This is pretty nice, it's a recent addition. A few months ago it was hourly most of the day, now it's half-hourly most of the day.

Note that the Lakeshore ones are the only GO lines that are double-tracked all the way and thus equipped for two-way seven-day service so you'll really only see rush-hour mostly-one-way weekday-only service on all the other lines. Even if there is a GO station on another line near some other potential stadium location (e.g. Downsview), it probably won't help anybody get to a weekend game without massive upgrades to the track.


and anyone in the 416 is going to have a very difficult time getting there on TTC due to the limited streetcar access to BMO Field.

TTC to Union , transfer to GO to Exhibition. It's doable and with half-hourly service it's not totally outlandish. Some day we'll have integrated fares across all these systems and perhaps you'll be able to transfer without paying another $4.85 for the GO part to make it more desirable .

[Neely2005]

Agreed there's no way Richmond Hill works on the timeline needed for the Argos. I do think that Vaughan Metropolitan Centre is in the cards though: https://www.vaughan.ca/business/vaughan_metropolitan_centre/Pages/default.aspx. Here's the map: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=109447644225050941501.0004436008e4412c6b850&ll=43.795369,-79.527476&spn=0.007868,0.014462&z=16&om=1&iwloc=0004436011e2e39c222a6

I think that Richmond Hill can work being that it's North but Central. You have the 407, 404, Highway 7 and great Viva & YRT Bus service on Yonge Street that goes right into Finch Station and later hopefully into the Richmond Hill Subway Station at Yonge & 7 or Yonge & 16th.

That location in Vaughan may work even better as you have the 400, 407 & Highway 7 plus the Subway will be running to 400 & 7 in a couple of years.


TTC to Union , transfer to GO to Exhibition. It's doable and with half-hourly service it's not totally outlandish. Some day we'll have integrated fares across all these systems and perhaps you'll be able to transfer without paying another $4.85 for the GO part to make it more desirable .

So you're looking at around $15 Round Trip Per Person in TTC (to Union) and GO (to Exhibition Station) Fares. At that point you're better off driving and paying for parking IMO.

[paulwoods13]

So you're looking at around $15 Round Trip Per Person in TTC (to Union) and GO (to Exhibition Station) Fares. At that point you're better off driving and paying for parking IMO.

I pay more than $15 round trip now by GO alone. And most of the time I'd rather do that than fight traffic.

[ArgoGabe22]

From today


On other matters, Leiweke said:

-- The chances of an NFL team coming to Toronto in the next decade are "pretty good."
-- Given 17 of 19 Toronto FC games were played in rain at BMO Field this season, "we've got to put an end to that, it's time to put a roof on BMO Field."
-- At the requests of the city of Toronto, which owns BMO Field, MLSE is looking at whether the venue can be changed to accommodate the CFL. "The Argos are part of a conversation, not a decision that's been made."

[ArgoFan1]

ArgoZ- no no no. we don't play Canadian Football by rules we took from the Americans. Our game is older than theirs. They modified the original rules to make their game the slow, boring game it is.

[ArgoZ]

ArgoZ- no no no. we don't play Canadian Football by rules we took from the Americans. Our game is older than theirs. They modified the original rules to make their game the slow, boring game it is.

As we have discussed before, the history of football is really interesting and how both games evolved on their own. True, the CDN game is older. The introduction of downs came from the Americans. From the shores of Lake Erie, the forward pass was introduced about 10 years before we started using it. We played rugby and the Americans slowly changed it, making up football as it is today, with us inheriting a lot of their rules.

[ArgoRavi]

The chances of an NFL team coming to Toronto in the next decade are "pretty good" according to Leiweke? Paul Godfrey said the same thing twenty-five years ago.

[ArgoZ]

The chances of an NFL team coming to Toronto in the next decade are "pretty good" according to Leiweke? Paul Godfrey said the same thing twenty-five years ago.

Year after year there is some talking head predicting the NFL's arrival. Eventually, they grow old, retire, maybe pass away, and someone new takes their place, all while the NFL is still not here.

[argolio]

As we have discussed before, the history of football is really interesting and how both games evolved on their own. True, the CDN game is older. The introduction of downs came from the Americans. From the shores of Lake Erie, the forward pass was introduced about 10 years before we started using it. We played rugby and the Americans slowly changed it, making up football as it is today, with us inheriting a lot of their rules.McGill introduced a version of downs when they took their game to Harvard in 1874. McGill also introduced running with the ball and tackling. Before that the American game was mostly kicking the ball back and forth.

Walter Camp, a legend in American football, refined that in the next decade and was the key figure who standardized the rules of the game in the U.S.

[argos1873]

The world refers to the system of downs and forward pass game, as American football, to differentiate from football (soccer). Canadians are North Americans, so it is proper. As much as we would like to take credit for inventing the game, the version we play today is made up from mostly American rules.

Its true that most of the world may refer to football played in North America as American football, but the proper way to refer generically to both games is Gridiron football.


As we have discussed before, the history of football is really interesting and how both games evolved on their own. True, the CDN game is older. The introduction of downs came from the Americans. From the shores of Lake Erie, the forward pass was introduced about 10 years before we started using it. We played rugby and the Americans slowly changed it, making up football as it is today, with us inheriting a lot of their rules.

Exactly. Canadians invented a form of Rugby, the Americans took it and quite rapidly changed it, and with the introduction of import players, coaches and executives, the Canadians changed their game to closely resemble the American one, which continues to this day. So to say they are playing our game is correct. But so is saying we are playing theirs.

[ArgoZ]

McGill introduced a version of downs when they took their game to Harvard in 1874. McGill also introduced running with the ball and tackling. Before that the American game was mostly kicking the ball back and forth.

Walter Camp, a legend in American football, refined that in the next decade and was the key figure who standardized the rules of the game in the U.S.

Ok to be more specific, it was not the "downs for distance" we see today. The "downs" back then were like Rugby "stops". The Americans originally introduced 3 downs for 5 yards. The Canadians really copied or adopted many American rules. Today's modern game is more American than Canadian. It rarely resembles the Canadian "Rugby game" we introduced them too.

[argotom]

Back to the topic on hand. Markham is the only logical location. It is central from all directions, the city, east, west and north in the GTA.

[Neely2005]

Back to the topic on hand. Markham is the only logical location. It is central from all directions, the city, east, west and north in the GTA.

Richmond Hill is more central than Markham and Vaughan is just as central as Markham.

Yonge and Highway 7 / 407 is pretty much the dead center of the GTA.

[QBall]

From today
On other matters, Leiweke said:

-- The chances of an NFL team coming to Toronto in the next decade are "pretty good."


Really Tim? The NFL seems to think differently

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9880622/roger-goodell-los-angeles-vs-london-nfl-wants-both

L.A. or London first? NFL wants both

[rdavies]

Really Tim? The NFL seems to think differently
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9880622/roger-goodell-los-angeles-vs-london-nfl-wants-both
L.A. or London first? NFL wants both"Goodell is a huge proponent of playing in London. There will be two regular-season games played in London this season and three in 2014. The games are wildly popular and have been sellouts." You are proving you are worthy of a franchise," Goodell told the European fans."

Looks like the Bills in Toronto series is proving otherwise.

Lots of US fans don't want a team in London, reminiscent of US fans not wanting TFC in MLS. Personally I have a hard time believing that quite a few players won't have a problem with living there. Players in other sports already whine about taxes, customs (border crossing) and not being able to see themselves on ESPN while playing in Canada, let alone the different culture that is England.

[QBall]

"Goodell is a huge proponent of playing in London. There will be two regular-season games played in London this season and three in 2014. The games are wildly popular and have been sellouts." You are proving you are worthy of a franchise," Goodell told the European fans."

Looks like the Bills in Toronto series is proving otherwise.

Lots of US fans don't want a team in London, reminiscent of US fans not wanting TFC in MLS. Personally I have a hard time believing that quite a few players won't have a problem with living there. Players in other sports already whine about taxes, customs (border crossing) and not being able to see themselves on ESPN while playing in Canada, let alone the different culture that is England.

Can you imagine people in London waking up at 3:00 A.M. to watch their London team play an away game in Seattle, San Francisco, Oakland or San Diego at 7:00 PM PST?
As I understand it the NFL won't allow a corporation or group to own a team, it has to be an individual, so I don't know why Robbers is trying so hard. I don't know too many Canadians who have the cash sitting around to pay the $1 billion expansion fee.

[Ron]

IMO CFL (Argo) fans are more obsessed about the NFL in Toronto than NFL fans. Even here we have a Argo stadium thread turned into an NFL in Toronto thread.

The NFL ain't coming in many years if ever. So why do we talk about it so damned much?

[argos1873]

As I understand it the NFL won't allow a corporation or group to own a team, it has to be an individual, so I don't know why Robbers is trying so hard. I don't know too many Canadians who have the cash sitting around to pay the $1 billion expansion fee.

That's not entirely true, a corporation can own a certain amount of a team so long as a certain amount is owned by an individual, and then there are certain percentages that the individual's family can own. I don't know the numbers off hand, but for this discussion it doesn't really matter as an NFL team, not even a relocation of the Bills is in Toronto's future in the conceivable future. Let's put it this way, if you are Ralph Wilson or whoever is controlling his estate, and you have 2 suitors for your team, do you sell it to Toronto, or do you sell it to LA? And which one do you think the NFL will UNILATERALLY agree to? The answer to both? LA. Toronto doesn't even have a suitable NFL stadium for god's sake. The NFL isn't coming to Toronto any time soon folks, regardless of what the local NFL hypers would want you to believe.

[Neely2005]

Well this Thread certainly went off topic.

[Will]

Well if this poll tells us anything it is that there is anything BUT consensus amongst Argo fans.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Just curious. But for folks here that go to both Argo and Blue Jays games, how much of a difference is the game day experience between the two franchises? And if the Argo's had their own stadium and had a more control of the game day festivities could that translate into more fans coming to the game?

[ArgoGabe22]

Not sure if anyone goes to Jays games except maybe for one?

[argolio]

I haven't been to a Jays game since 1991 so I can't help you there.

[Neely2005]

Just curious. But for folks here that go to both Argo and Blue Jays games, how much of a difference is the game day experience between the two franchises? And if the Argo's had their own stadium and had a more control of the game day festivities could that translate into more fans coming to the game?

I went to 1 Blue Jays game this season, it was my first in years. Baseball fans aren't as boisterous as football fans so it's a very different atmosphere.

As to a new stadium I think that the biggest thing would be that the Argonauts would get much better dates. This seasons home schedule was a joke. The Argonauts get the Blue Jays scraps when it comes to scheduling.

[OV Argo]

Its true that most of the world may refer to football played in North America as American football, but the proper way to refer generically to both games is Gridiron football.



Exactly. Canadians invented a form of Rugby, the Americans took it and quite rapidly changed it, and with the introduction of import players, coaches and executives, the Canadians changed their game to closely resemble the American one, which continues to this day. So to say they are playing our game is correct. But so is saying we are playing theirs.

Football - wether the American or Canadian version - both adopted from rugby and subject to many changes over the years - is a uniquely North American sport - there is no official or better version of the game, and one version is just not a copy of the other - not even close - and IMO it is silly to think so.

There is Canadian football and there is American football - both great versions of a game and with their own distinct rules - thank gawd for this variety (I like and appreciate both versions of the game and am glad they are each their own - wayyyyy to much sameness in a lot of things today IMO)..

Canadian football just does not - IMO - get the respect it deserves for it's consistent quality and historical signifigance (not just the CFL but Canadian University ball, Junior ball, all the levels of minor ball down thru all the people who play the game, like adult touch football or just kids chucking the ball around in the park - and IMO again - that this happens in it's own country is sad and pathetic ; and we can thank the many wannabes and lemmings in the media up here for this. Canadians are constantly reminded how hockey is "Canada's game" and that is a great sport with so much history here. Not enough people get, however, that football is every bit as much a Canadian sport as hockey is. Pity, eh ?

[rdavies]

Another lightning bolt thrust against the Argos. After the U of T president changed and the U of T deal fell through and C and S made the (in hindsight) bad decision to continue at the RC now we have the pro football mayor declaring himself a crackhead (exaggeration) and basically killing his tenure as mayor. Can this team finally get some off the field luck working for them?

[ArgoRavi]

Another lightning bolt thrust against the Argos. After the U of T president changed and the U of T deal fell through and C and S made the (in hindsight) bad decision to continue at the RC now we have the pro football mayor declaring himself a crackhead (exaggeration) and basically killing his tenure as mayor. Can this team finally get some off the field luck working for them?

Has Ford done much for the Argos? We know that he and his brother have been on record about going after an NFL franchise. I am not sure that Roger Goodell will be taking any calls from the Fords anytime soon though, especially after Ford wore an NFL tie for today's big "crack admission" press conference: http://blogs.canoe.ca/slam/sports/bad-nfl-tie-confirms-crack-smokin-mayor-rob-ford-has-poor-judgment/

[Tau Ceti]

Has Ford done much for the Argos? We know that he and his brother have been on record about going after an NFL franchise. I am not sure that Roger Goodell will be taking any calls from the Fords anytime soon though.

Rob Ford has done zilch for the Argos. He talked about the need for a new stadium when he came back from Winnipeg but no one on city council takes his pontificating seriously.

Karen Stintz is on record as an Argo fan, by the way. She tweeted from a game or two last year. Plus she never seems to be high on... aww, too easy.

[rdavies]

Has Ford done much for the Argos? We know that he and his brother have been on record about going after an NFL franchise. I am not sure that Roger Goodell will be taking any calls from the Fords anytime soon though, especially after Ford wore an NFL tie for today's big "crack admission" press conference: http://blogs.canoe.ca/slam/sports/bad-nfl-tie-confirms-crack-smokin-mayor-rob-ford-has-poor-judgment/I think where we would have seen some influence would have been when MLSE came looking for building permits and the like for BMO. I would have thought that the mayor would have asked the question about a city owned stadium not making itself available to a team that would be without a home.

After I posted, I saw the "tie" article. Thinking of it now, that may have been his greatest service to Argo and CFL fans.

[paulwoods13]

I think where we would have seen some influence would have been when MLSE came looking for building permits and the like for BMO. I would have thought that the mayor would have asked the question about a city owned stadium not making itself available to a team that would be without a home.

The mayor has had almost no influence on government in Toronto for many, many months. He is a one-man band on a council of 45. The notion that he could influence council is based on how thing are supposed to work in a normal city.

[T-Bone]

I think where we would have seen some influence would have been when MLSE came looking for building permits and the like for BMO. I would have thought that the mayor would have asked the question about a city owned stadium not making itself available to a team that would be without a home.
Leiweke mentioned at the TFC Presidents Breakfast at the end of September that the city (Probably Ford) had approached MLSE about what it would take to renovate BMO Field to accommodate the Argos. There was a rumor that PCL already has plans drawn up which is quite possible as Leiweke also mentioned at the breakfast that they were well on their way with roof designs for BMO Field. Any renovation to BMO Field has to be approved by both the Exhibition Board and City Council. MLSE can easily go in and say, here are the plans with accommodations for the Argos which cost X amount and here are plans with out accommodations for the Argos which cost X amount. We are willing to cover 100% of the cost for the cheaper plan that doesn't accommodate the Argos so if you want them in there you can pay for that plan. The only way MLSE will pay for renovations to BMO Field that accommodates the Argos is if they buy the team because they feel they can make a return on that investment, otherwise I highly doubt it will happen.


After I posted, I saw the "tie" article. Thinking of it now, that may have been his greatest service to Argo and CFL fans.
Ya, I was quite happy it was a NFL tie vs. a CFL tie as well.

[Neely2005]

It looks like there must be a sizable number of Argonauts fans from York Region.

[AngeloV]

Rob Ford has done zilch for the Argos. He talked about the need for a new stadium when he came back from Winnipeg but no one on city council takes his pontificating seriously.

Karen Stintz is on record as an Argo fan, by the way. She tweeted from a game or two last year. Plus she never seems to be high on... aww, too easy.

I can confirm this. I've seen her in sec 234 at 3 different games this season, and she gets right into the games cheering. Unlike Ford who went to the pre season game just to be seen.

[Neely2005]

I can confirm this. I've seen her in sec 234 at 3 different games this season, and she gets right into the games cheering. Unlike Ford who went to the pre season game just to be seen.

She also said:

Councillor Karen Stintz, who attends many Argonauts games as well as the past two Grey Cups and the upcoming one in Regina, said it would be more economical and her preference to make going to the Rogers Centre a better experience, instead of building something new.
“I would find it interesting to work on how we fill the existing stadium,” Stintz said. “My preference. Would be to get people interested in football again in Toronto (at the current home). The spirit in Saskatchewan, Winnipeg and even B.C. is so amazing, it would be great to get that kind of spirit in Toronto.”

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/26/where-will-the-argos-play-next

So she's obviously out to lunch as she didn't even seem to be aware that the Rogers Centre is putting in grass and kicking out the Argonauts.

[AngeloV]

She also said:

Councillor Karen Stintz, who attends many Argonauts games as well as the past two Grey Cups and the upcoming one in Regina, said it would be more economical and her preference to make going to the Rogers Centre a better experience, instead of building something new.
“I would find it interesting to work on how we fill the existing stadium,” Stintz said. “My preference. Would be to get people interested in football again in Toronto (at the current home). The spirit in Saskatchewan, Winnipeg and even B.C. is so amazing, it would be great to get that kind of spirit in Toronto.”

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/26/where-will-the-argos-play-next

So she's obviously out to lunch as she didn't even seem to be aware that the Rogers Centre is putting in grass and kicking out the Argonauts.

Kind of an unfair posting on your part. The Article which you quoted her on was from July, and the Argos announce in September that they were entering their final lease with Skydome. Without being a part of the negotiations, how would she have known what the plans for the future of the dome were? Seeing as how they are both privately run, it cetainly isn't anything that should have been on the agenda of city council.

[Neely2005]

Kind of an unfair posting on your part. The Article which you quoted her on was from July, and the Argos announce in September that they were entering their final lease with Skydome. Without being a part of the negotiations, how would she have known what the plans for the future of the dome were? Seeing as how they are both privately run, it cetainly isn't anything that should have been on the agenda of city council.

It's been common knowledge for years that the Blue Jays are going to put in real grass and kick out the Argonauts:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120203&content_id=26568702&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-rogers-centre-grass-turf/

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/cfl-55-yard-line/blue-jays-plan-real-grass-rogers-centre-poses-232200351.html

[Tau Ceti]

Wasn't Braley himself on record over the last year saying he'd still like to make the Skydome work? I'm sure I can remember a radio interview or something. Sure it's long been unlikely that they would stay (and now appears impossible) but advocating for the Dome hardly makes someone out to lunch.

[Neely2005]

Wasn't Braley himself on record over the last year saying he'd still like to make the Skydome work? I'm sure I can remember a radio interview or something. Sure it's long been unlikely that they would stay (and now appears impossible) but advocating for the Dome hardly makes someone out to lunch.

Considering that the Blue Jays have been talking about going to grass for years I would be quite surprised if Braley has said anything of the sort recently.

It does when it's been common knowledge for years that the Blue Jays are going to kick the Argonauts out.

It is impossible for the Argonauts to stay at Rogers Centre once the grass goes in because they can't reconfigure the Stands without destroying the grass.

[AngeloV]

It's been common knowledge for years that the Blue Jays are going to put in real grass and kick out the Argonauts:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120203&content_id=26568702&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-rogers-centre-grass-turf/


http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/cfl-55-yard-line/blue-jays-plan-real-grass-rogers-centre-poses-232200351.html

Yes, but not everyone follows these things the way that those of us on sports forums do. Many Argos fans watch and cheer for the team to win, but not everyone is obsessed with the business side of things.

[Neely2005]

Yes, but not everyone follows these things the way that those of us on sports forums do. Many Argos fans watch and cheer for the team to win, but not everyone is obsessed with the business side of things.

She's a city councillor she should know and if she doesn't then she shouldn't be making statements about it.

[AngeloV]

She's a city councillor she should know and if she doesn't then she shouldn't be making statements about it.

Again, I disagree. At the time of her statement (and really now) it was a private company issue (between the Argos and Rogers Corp). Once it becomes a city issue (if the Argos go to city hall looking for help in the matter), then city council should know about it.

[paulwoods13]

She's a city councillor she should know and if she doesn't then she shouldn't be making statements about it.

Do you hold all city councillors, including the mayor, to the standard that they should talk publicly only about subjects they have detailed knowledge about?

[Neely2005]

Again, I disagree. At the time of her statement (and really now) it was a private company issue (between the Argos and Rogers Corp). Once it becomes a city issue (if the Argos go to city hall looking for help in the matter), then city council should know about it.

First Rogers isn't a private company. Secondly as the Links that I posted in my previous post show this was public knowledge for a long time. Thirdly one of the rumored destinations for the Argonauts is BMO Field which is owned by the City of Toronto.


Do you hold all city councillors, including the mayor, to the standard that they should talk publicly only about subjects they have detailed knowledge about?

Yes they should at least have basic knowledge of the issue if they're going to speak publicly about it.

[AngeloV]

First Rogers isn't a private company. Secondly as the Links that I posted in my previous post show this was public knowledge for a long time. Thirdly one of the rumored destinations for the Argonauts is BMO Field which is owned by the City of Toronto.

By private, I obviously meant nothing that the city would get involved in. As for the rumours of BMO field, until it's officially on the agenda for city counsel to look at, I wouldn't expect any member of counsel to comment on it. To the best of my knowledge, MLSE hasn't presented any options to counsel in regards to this. Do you have more official information that anyone else does?

[paulwoods13]

Yes they should at least have basic knowledge of the issue if they're going to speak publicly about it.

In that case, I assume you agree that the mayor should basically keep his mouth shut about nearly everything?

[Neely2005]

By private, I obviously meant nothing that the city would get involved in. As for the rumours of BMO field, until it's officially on the agenda for city counsel to look at, I wouldn't expect any member of counsel to comment on it. To the best of my knowledge, MLSE hasn't presented any options to counsel in regards to this. Do you have more official information that anyone else does?

As I already said the Links that I previously posted show that this was public knowledge for a long time.


In that case, I assume you agree that the mayor should basically keep his mouth shut about nearly everything?

I'm pretty sure that I already answered that question.

Regardless this is getting to political and that never ends well and is probably against the site rules.

[paulwoods13]

I'm pretty sure that I already answered that question.

Regardless this is getting to political and that never ends well and is probably against the site rules.

Valid point.

[Neely2005]

Valid point.

Cheers. :)

[Tau Ceti]

Braley himself was still making positive noises about the Dome within the last twelve months IIRC. I hardly think Stintz was out to lunch. She made a very general statement about improving interest in football and bringing more excitement to the Dome. No biggie.

[argos1873]

Braley himself was still making positive noises about the Dome within the last twelve months IIRC. I hardly think Stintz was out to lunch. She made a very general statement about improving interest in football and bringing more excitement to the Dome. No biggie.

I can't speak on what Braley may or may not have said, but up until Rogers announcement a few months ago about grass at the Skydome, it was all just rumours and speculation. Sure it was Rogers based rumours and speculation, but nothing was certain until their announcement. Up until that time anyone hoping to see the Argos remain at Skydome, including Braley, had a valid reason for exploring that option. Now that that option will expire soon, its time to move on.

[argolio]

I can't speak on what Braley may or may not have said, but up until Rogers announcement a few months ago about grass at the Skydome, it was all just rumours and speculation. Sure it was Rogers based rumours and speculation, but nothing was certain until their announcement. Up until that time anyone hoping to see the Argos remain at Skydome, including Braley, had a valid reason for exploring that option. Now that that option will expire soon, its time to move on.I agree. Before that announcement it was common knowledge they might install natural grass, not that they definitively would.

[Neely2005]

I agree. Before that announcement it was common knowledge they might install natural grass, not that they definitively would.

I disagree. It was common knowledge that the Blue Jays were going to install grass.

[QBall]

What about Lamport stadium? You could tear it down and rebuild it to meet CFL size and increase the seating (the size of the lot could easily fit this). You might lose the parking lot on the south side of the stadium in order to fit the end zones and end zone seating, but there's quite a few public parking lots in that area. Plus you would still have access to the Go train station and better access to the Dufferin St bus and King St streetcar lines.

[Neely2005]

What about Lamport stadium? You could tear it down and rebuild it to meet CFL size and increase the seating (the size of the lot could easily fit this). You might lose the parking lot on the south side of the stadium in order to fit the end zones and end zone seating, but there's quite a few public parking lots in that area. Plus you would still have access to the Go train station and better access to the Dufferin St bus and King St streetcar lines.

There's not enough space to build a 29,000 seat stadium there. And there's no where near enough parking and limited highway access and no subway access. Plus Lamport is owned by the city.

Braley has already said that he's looking at North Toronto, Vaughan, Markham and maybe Mississauga.

[Tau Ceti]

The Lamport site has been discussed extensively on the Skyscraper forum. See here for a mock-up someone did of a 31k seater: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=152997&page=154.

Basically, you can get a CFL stadium in there but it would use up every square inch of the grounds and parking lot. That would be entirely impractical. I took some pictures down there and noticed you'd also need to purchase at least one private home to make it work on the western side. Plus it's a comparative stone's throw to BMO and the city would be very unlikely to put money toward another stadium so close.

A fair idea but not quite doable.

[QBall]

The Lamport site has been discussed extensively on the Skyscraper forum. See here for a mock-up someone did of a 31k seater: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=152997&page=154.

Basically, you can get a CFL stadium in there but it would use up every square inch of the grounds and parking lot. That would be entirely impractical. I took some pictures down there and noticed you'd also need to purchase at least one private home to make it work on the western side. Plus it's a comparative stone's throw to BMO and the city would be very unlikely to put money toward another stadium so close.

A fair idea but not quite doable.

Interesting (I'm assuming the designer didn't have the time to put a roof on their model). I thought maybe Lamport might have been viable since you wouldn't have to start from scratch as you would, well, pretty much anywhere else. Transit may not be ideal (yeah no subway but there aren't too many viable sites near the subway line), but it's not bad. Highway access is also not ideal, but if Argos fans have been able to live with trying to access the QEW from around Robbers Center all these decades I'm sure having to access it from the Ex is not a big deal. Plus you wouldn't have to worry about having to contend with traffic coming out of the ACC on the rare occasions when the two venues let out at the same time. I really don't want to see the Argos leave the City of Toronto proper. It's just not the same having them in Mississauga or Vaughan.

[Neely2005]

Interesting (I'm assuming the designer didn't have the time to put a roof on their model). I thought maybe Lamport might have been viable since you wouldn't have to start from scratch as you would, well, pretty much anywhere else. Transit may not be ideal (yeah no subway but there aren't too many viable sites near the subway line), but it's not bad. Highway access is also not ideal, but if Argos fans have been able to live with trying to access the QEW from around Robbers Center all these decades I'm sure having to access it from the Ex is not a big deal. Plus you wouldn't have to worry about having to contend with traffic coming out of the ACC on the rare occasions when the two venues let out at the same time. I really don't want to see the Argos leave the City of Toronto proper. It's just not the same having them in Mississauga or Vaughan.

I would think that Lamport would actually take longer because you would have to tear down the old stadium first.

Driving to BMO Field or Lamport Stadium is actually worse than the Rogers Centre because the highway exits aren't as good and there is less parking. Plus when the CNE is on you lose parking and you lose access to/from Dufferin street. Another problem is the lack of bars and restaurants in the area.

As far as I'm aware the only sites in 416 Toronto that are being considered are BMO Field, Downsview and Woodbine Racetrack.

As to Vaughan you would have highway and subway access. Also the Ottawa Senators don't play in Ottawa and the 49ers are moving out of San Francisco too.

[Mulder]

As to Vaughan you would have highway and subway access. Also the Ottawa Senators don't play in Ottawa and the 49ers are moving out of San Francisco too.

Kanata is as much as Ottawa as Scarborough is Toronto.

Too many people use it as an excuse, it's too "far"

It's a 20min drive from downtown Ottawa. I drive it everyday. Even in heavier traffic it's 30-40 minutes.

[ArgoZ]

I disagree. It was common knowledge that the Blue Jays were going to install grass.

No, I must join the others in saying it was not common knowledge. It was known that they would like to do such, but nothing was made official. It was all talk and essentially still is. I remember when the Jays were in spring training and this is when the topic really took off, but Beeston did not give an official answer. In fact, they want to do it 5 years from now, but until they start hammering the concrete, you just never know for sure. A lot can happen in 5 years.

[Neely2005]

No, I must join the others in saying it was not common knowledge. It was known that they would like to do such, but nothing was made official. It was all talk and essentially still is. I remember when the Jays were in spring training and this is when the topic really took off, but Beeston diBetween the both of us, we attended almost every home game. d not give an official answer. In fact, they want to do it 5 years from now, but until they start hammering the concrete, you just never know for sure. A lot can happen in 5 years.

Except that it was:


It's been common knowledge for years that the Blue Jays are going to put in real grass and kick out the Argonauts:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120203&content_id=26568702&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-rogers-centre-grass-turf/

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/cfl-55-yard-line/blue-jays-plan-real-grass-rogers-centre-poses-232200351.html

[ArgoGabe22]

Except that it was:

I'm confused on what's going on here. The titles for the three articles you posted contain the words ‘seriously discussing’, plan and mull. Therefore nothing was official until September of this year (I think).

[Tau Ceti]

We're officially going in circles. Let's agree that there was increasing talk of the change to grass for some months (including clear indications from Beeston in the spring) but that the hammer didn't officially fall until September. It's certainly an exaggeration to call it "common knowledge for years."

[ArgoZ]

Except that it was:

The first two articles talk about the "potential" and "discussing" of grass. The last one is bang on just what I said, in which it didn't start gaining real steam until this last Jays pre-season. Even then, the article quotes sources and not Beeston himself, because there has yet to be an official announcement of such. Your articles just proved what we have been saying. It was common knowledge that they wanted to install grass, it was not that they were going to do so.

[Tau Ceti]

Random note: the Wikipedia page on the Dome had no mention whatsoever of the change over to grass. I just updated it. NOW it's common knowledge! :)

[Neely2005]

Random note: the Wikipedia page on the Dome had no mention whatsoever of the change over to grass. I just updated it. NOW it's common knowledge! :)

Lol @ Wikipedia being used as a reference for anything. :)

[Argocister]

Lol @ Wikipedia being used as a reference for anything. :)

You may be surprised how that is the go to site for initial info.

[rdavies]

Lol @ Wikipedia being used as a reference for anything.Study: Wikipedia as accurate as Britannica (http://news.cnet.com/2100-1038_3-5997332.html)

[Neely2005]

Study: Wikipedia as accurate as Britannica (http://news.cnet.com/2100-1038_3-5997332.html)

Anything that can be edited by anyone has inherent problems.

[Rich]

I think going to a refurbished BMO is the best option, but only if MLSE buys the team. It's the safest bet.

But if it comes to best location for a new stadium, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the Portlands. Minutes from downtown, thousands of acres of developable land, its the perfect place for a Lansdowne Stadium-type development with lots of commercial and residential in and around the stadium. Enough land -- downtown land -- that could attract a really great civic-pride kind of development.

The best part is how the changing transportation infrastructure could make the Portlands a perfect fit for the future. The Gardiner east of Jarvis is coming down. They are going to completely redesign the Don Valley/Gardiner/Lakeshore interchange. You could have a Don Valley offramp heading straight into the stadium area, and a Lakeshore Southeast turnoff coming off the Gardiner eastbound.

The new Downtown Relief Subway line is supposed to head south from Pape Station then west to the West Donlands, pretty easy (relatively) to connect to the Portlands from there. No real good GO solution, though.

[argolio]

The new Downtown Relief Subway line is supposed to head south from Pape Station then west to the West Donlands, pretty easy (relatively) to connect to the Portlands from there. No real good GO solution, though.Problem is that relief line is probably at least ten years away. They haven't even started an Environmental Assessment. Ford and Miller both screwed the city by ignoring this project.

Couldn't they add a GO station somewhere between Cherry Street and the Don?

[shayman]

Anything that can be edited by anyone has inherent problems.

At least it can be edited. How do you fix a mistake in a book? Or a newspaper? Those have limited editors, and they make mistakes.

[rdavies]

Can't remember where I read it, but it said something like most Wikipedia "vandalism" was corrected within four minutes.

Remember, Wikipedia has checks and balances for writing to it. I even corrected something once.

I was reading the entry on the Toronto Maple Leafs and some clown changed the names of The Kid Line to Chen Lee, Kwang Ho and Kam Lo (making names up, can't remember what they were exactly) I figured out how to make a correction and went and fixed it.

It's been so long, but IIRC it logs people's IP addresses so they have an idea of who is vandalizing and who is correcting, so vandalism is kept to a minimum. In fact, I don't recall seeing anything glaringly wrong since (not to say that doesn't happen).

To me the strength of Wikipedia are the links at the bottom of the entry that lead to a more first hand source of info.

[294life]

Yeah, it's amazing we haven't had much traffic on this topic lately. So get ready for a year or so of speculation.

In (slightly) related news, someone on riderfans has noted that Raptors play at home at 1 o'clock on Nov. 17, and speculated the Eastern Final might be moved to prime time. Speaking personally I would be in favour of that. I'd hate waiting all day for it to start, but the buzz created by a prime-time game would be cool, IMO. I thought the atmosphere and buzz were amazing at the 2004 Eastern Semifinal although a lot of that was likely due to its Friday night time slot.

I believe I was the one that made the specualtion but I was told by Lyle E. Style that , and I quote, 'Early season Craptors aren't a big draw'.

[Rich]

Problem is that relief line is probably at least ten years away. They haven't even started an Environmental Assessment. Ford and Miller both screwed the city by ignoring this project.

Couldn't they add a GO station somewhere between Cherry Street and the Don?

Well the rail line runs right along there, I suppose they could, it's probably a similar distance away from Union that the Ex stop is.

As for the infrastructure, sure there's a lot that needs to happen for the Portlands but not much more than if they put the stadium up in Boonerville like some suggest. Putting the team way up there would be suicide, the Argos would become the next Toronto Lynx.

[johnnyice]

How about the RAPTORS switching their time ? This is a very important play-off game , not JUST a game a couple of weeks into the schedule !


I was about to suggest the Portlands ; clearly the big plans that were once pegged for there are gathering dust .

BTW , this subway relief has been bandied about since the late '60's ; so we shouldn't count on that .

[Neely2005]

Well the rail line runs right along there, I suppose they could, it's probably a similar distance away from Union that the Ex stop is.

As for the infrastructure, sure there's a lot that needs to happen for the Portlands but not much more than if they put the stadium up in Boonerville like some suggest. Putting the team way up there would be suicide, the Argos would become the next Toronto Lynx.

Most of the Argonauts fans are from the 905 and Vaughan has highways and a TTC Subway stop.

[argolio]

BTW , this subway relief has been bandied about since the late '60's ; so we shouldn't count on that .Difference is Toronto Council has definitively declared it the city's next major transit priority. So it'll happen when funding is secured.

[Neely2005]

Difference is Toronto Council has definitively declared it the city's next major transit priority. So it'll happen when funding is secured.

So best case scenario is that it's a decade away. Vaughan TTC Subway has already completed all tunneling and will open within 2 years.

Plus the relief line isn't necessarily the next line to get built. Tim Hudak says that he wants to build the relief line and the Richmond Hill extension. Who knows which one will get built first.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/hudak-would-extend-subways-scrap-lrts-as-ontario-premier/article15113241/?service=mobile

[Neely2005]

In regards to the Vaughan TTC Subway Extension you can get updates here:

http://www.vivanext.com/spadina-subway-extension/

Currently they show as 50% Completed with the tunneling now almost totally completed:

http://www.yorkregion.com/news-story/4071663-tunnel-construction-for-toronto-york-spadina-subway-extension-nearing-completion/

“In terms of the whole project, we’re past the 50 per cent mark,”



(http://www.yorkregion.com/news-story/4071663-tunnel-construction-for-toronto-york-spadina-subway-extension-nearing-completion/)

[Ballstothewall]

Funny on Ticketmaster, you have to search for this game, and then when you find it, there is a comment about limited tickets left, however it's not posted under HOT Ticket, that section is reserved for the Raptors, Marles, and the NFL game in Toronto. I would think, MLSE and Rogers pay to have that placement up front on Zticketmaster

[ArgosFanEastSide]

As a resident of Pickering, I think our city should be considered. There is tons of room near the newly renovated GO station (where the large secondary parking lot is which the city is planning to remove for "growth"), that is 30 minutes from downtown on the express Lakeshore East line (40 minutes non-express). This area is also literally right off the 401 (making it a 20-30 minute drive for anyone in Toronto that lives near the 401). It would also be relatively easy to build a 401 off ramp right at the location. For anyone who is unfamiliar with the area, use Google Maps to check the travel time to the intersection of Liverpool and Bayly. I bet it's not that long of a time. The location would be very easily accessible for anyone near the Lakeshore GO line or the 401, which is a very large portion of people. It would also be able to draw on Durham Region's 500k+ population, the northern suburbs of Markham, Richmond Hill and Vaughan, and would undoubtedly draw people from as far east as Peterborough. I'd argue that the western side of the Toronto, and Mississauga, are too close to Hamilton as well.

Just another idea to consider.

Edit: What the area looks like right now: https://maps.google.ca/?ll=43.833575,-79.078817&spn=0.002515,0.013078&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=43.833645,-79.078843&panoid=tcH7kY5U5Ap3pHFKZHjjsg&cbp=12,233.52,,0,0. The other side of that dead end is the 401.

[doubleblue]

That would be great for me but I expect a new Stadium will be more central. Either BMO or more north central.

[paulwoods13]

I'd argue that the western side of the Toronto, and Mississauga, are too close to Hamilton as well.

So the Argos should abandon fans in those regions? We should all become Ticat fans?

[Neely2005]

As a resident of Pickering, I think our city should be considered. There is tons of room near the newly renovated GO station (where the large secondary parking lot is which the city is planning to remove for "growth"), that is 30 minutes from downtown on the express Lakeshore East line (40 minutes non-express). This area is also literally right off the 401 (making it a 20-30 minute drive for anyone in Toronto that lives near the 401). It would also be relatively easy to build a 401 off ramp right at the location. For anyone who is unfamiliar with the area, use Google Maps to check the travel time to the intersection of Liverpool and Bayly. I bet it's not that long of a time. The location would be very easily accessible for anyone near the Lakeshore GO line or the 401, which is a very large portion of people. It would also be able to draw on Durham Region's 500k+ population, the northern suburbs of Markham, Richmond Hill and Vaughan, and would undoubtedly draw people from as far east as Peterborough. I'd argue that the western side of the Toronto, and Mississauga, are too close to Hamilton as well.

Just another idea to consider.

Edit: What the area looks like right now: https://maps.google.ca/?ll=43.833575,-79.078817&spn=0.002515,0.013078&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=43.833645,-79.078843&panoid=tcH7kY5U5Ap3pHFKZHjjsg&cbp=12,233.52,,0,0. The other side of that dead end is the 401.

Sure if all the games are on Saturday or Sunday. On a weekday during the afternoon rush hours triple it.

The 401 through Toronto is the busiest stretch of highway in all of North America.

[Will]

I laugh anytime anyone proposes the stadium be located in their backyard.

[ArgosFanEastSide]

So the Argos should abandon fans in those regions? We should all become Ticat fans?

I guess I wasn't clear on what I meant. Rather, that the suburbs west of Toronto/Mississauga are more likely to be Tiger-cats fans than those on the eastern side. Taking the GO train from south Mississauga/Etobicoke, or taking the 401 from the north to Pickering would not be too long of a trip on the weekends.


Sure if all the games are on Saturday or Sunday. On a weekday during the afternoon rush hours triple it.

The 401 through Toronto is the busiest stretch of highway in all of North America.

I don't see any reason why all of their games couldn't be played on Saturdays and Sundays. I'm sure a significant factor in why they play on weekdays is because they are in the Rogers Center. If we're making the assumption that they are going to start many of their games during rush hour on weekdays, I think you can write off any area outside of downtown.


I laugh anytime anyone proposes the stadium be located in their backyard.

I'm not sure why. People who live in the area are much more likely to know fine details relating to it. I never said any other ideas weren't better, I was simply suggesting a new location that no one else had discussed.

[Neely2005]

I guess I wasn't clear on what I meant. Rather, that the suburbs west of Toronto/Mississauga are more likely to be Tiger-cats fans than those on the eastern side. Taking the GO train from south Mississauga/Etobicoke, or taking the 401 from the north to Pickering would not be too long of a trip on the weekends.



I don't see any reason why all of their games couldn't be played on Saturdays and Sundays. I'm sure a significant factor in why they play on weekdays is because they are in the Rogers Center. If we're making the assumption that they are going to start many of their games during rush hour on weekdays, I think you can write off any area outside of downtown.



I'm not sure why. People who live in the area are much more likely to know fine details relating to it. I never said any other ideas weren't better, I was simply suggesting a new location that no one else had discussed.

TSN Friday Night Football?

Vaughan, Downsview and eventually Richmond Hill will all be accessible via TTC Subway. They're already accessible via GO Train and Bus / High Speed Bus and aside from Downsview they have better highway access and are in Toronto or closer to Toronto.

[doubleblue]

For fans from the west or east end a new stadium has to be at BMO for the GO Train or Downsview or Vaughan so people could drive. People in downtown TO could get there by subway. If they do go to the north central, I would want to see a good sized parking lot so I could drive. Wouldn't make sense to get on the GO for 55 minutes to Union and then have to jump on the subway to go north for another 50 minutes. I could drive in probably 30 minutes max.

[ArgosFanEastSide]

TSN Friday Night Football?

Vaughan, Downsview and eventually Richmond Hill will all be accessible via TTC Subway. They're already accessible via GO Train and Bus / High Speed Bus and aside from Downsview they have better highway access and are in Toronto or closer to Toronto.

Friday Night Football is just a title, it could literally instantly be changed to TSN Saturday Night Football.

I can think of equal negatives to all of those locations. None of them are along the GO Lakeshore line, which is how a very significant amount of Argos fans currently get to the games. Getting to those locations during rush hour (if you're sticking to the weekday games argument) for anyone driving would be just as awful.

In the end, none of the locations are perfect. Someone is always going to disagree with the decision, and yet I think any of those locations would do well. I just believe that Pickering would work just as well.

[paulwoods13]

Friday Night Football is just a title, it could literally instantly be changed to TSN Saturday Night Football.

There is no way TSN would eliminate the brand equity it has built up with FNF, and in any event the network is always going to need multiple days to show games. Fridays will always be part of that. I suppose the Argos could be exempted from hosting games on Fridays (as Montreal seems to be because of its agreement with McGill) but I can't see the other teams agreeing to let Toronto have only weekend home dates while everyone else has to do Fridays and some Thursdays. Montreal has home games on Thursdays as well as weekend days.


I can think of equal negatives to all of those locations. None of them are along the GO Lakeshore line, which is how a very significant amount of Argos fans currently get to the games. Getting to those locations during rush hour (if you're sticking to the weekday games argument) for anyone driving would be just as awful.

In the end, none of the locations are perfect. Someone is always going to disagree with the decision, and yet I think any of those locations would do well. I just believe that Pickering would work just as well.

You are right that there are a lot of fans on the Lakeshore Go line, and that there is no location that will make everyone happy. The Argos' challenge is to choose a location that minimizes the erosion of existing fans and maximizes the influx of new fans. I have a hard time seeing how a stadium at either far extreme of the Lakeshore line (i.e. in Pickering or Burlington) would achieve that goal.


I guess I wasn't clear on what I meant. Rather, that the suburbs west of Toronto/Mississauga are more likely to be Tiger-cats fans than those on the eastern side.

Yes, the western suburbs are more likely to be Ticats fans than Argo fans, but it's a pretty meaningless statistic. My perception is that there are very few Ticat fans in Mississauga, a few more (but still a small number) in Oakville, and relatively equal support for both teams in Burlington. There may be no Ticat fans whatsoever in Oshawa/Whitby/Pickering, which would make the "more likely" statement true, but if there is one Ticat fan in Mississauga and none in Pickering, that doesn't make it worth abandoning the comparatively much larger group of Argo fans in Mississauga.

[intoronto]

I don't agree BMO Field is the best option for the Argos. BMO Field is a soccer specific facility and should be left as is (besides the FC fans are objecting the idea already). What the Argos need is a 25,000-30,000 seat facility built somewhere accessible by transit. York University maybe?

[paulwoods13]

I don't agree BMO Field is the best option for the Argos. BMO Field is a soccer specific facility and should be left as is (besides the FC fans are objecting the idea already). What the Argos need is a 25,000-30,000 seat facility built somewhere accessible by transit. York University maybe?

Welcome to the site. Feel free to peruse the many threads that have dealt with this issue and continue to do so. Here is a summary of the salient points:

Everyone seems to accept that York is not an option. The team itself has said the footprint for a potential stadium there is too small.

Some fans believe the best options are in the North (such as Downsview, Woodbine, Vaughan or Markham) because they are easily accessible by car. Other say no location requiring a drive is truly easily accessible in Toronto's congested traffic.

Some fans say BMO is ideal because it accessible by highway and transit from all directions. (This of course is predicated on the stadium being rebuilt to accommodate Cdn football.) Others say BMO is a pain in the a-- to get to by car and transit.

Some fans believe that direct public transit from all directions must be available, as it is now. Others say it's OK to have one or two transit options (such as subway and Viva or whatever the regional public transit is called in the north) but not necessary to make the game easily accessible to those who now take GO Transit on the Lakeshore line.

A few other ideas have been floated (such as stadium in Mississauga, Oakville or now Pickering) but there does not seem to be any consensus in favour of those.

Some fans say they are sure that Braley will build his own stadium in the North. Others say they are sure Braley will not spend his own money on a stadium.

Some fans think being bought by MLSE (and moving into BMO) would be ideal because the team would have wealthy owners who would make merchandise available and support the team regardless. Others say being owned by MLSE would be a complete disaster because its teams never win.

Have I forgotten anything?

[Argo57]

I don't agree BMO Field is the best option for the Argos. BMO Field is a soccer specific facility and should be left as is (besides the FC fans are objecting the idea already). What the Argos need is a 25,000-30,000 seat facility built somewhere accessible by transit. York University maybe?

Hence the $100 million BMO renovation being discussed, I see a pretty decent amount of Argonaut fans taking the Go Train from Burlington and increasing (as Paul stated) as you go east. Stadium has to be centrally located to suit the masses, I wouldn't be remotely interested in travelling to Pickering to see them play.
FC fans can object all they want but if the hypothetical MLSE purchase comes to fruition then it will become a dual purpose stadium.

[Qman]

My sense is it comes down to if your a driver or transit user:

The BMO option is assumed at retrofitted stadium to bring it up to professional standards. If you believe MLSE, Two england-style roofs, upgraded seats, expanding seating/boxes, to 25-30k are a must. Closer to IGF in winnipeg. You get transit access and Friday night games are an option, but you have to scheduling conflicts with TFC and field turn over time.

Vaughan-ish ultra-suburan option would be bare bones Tim Hortons Field style. 90% drive-in/drive-out. Probably saturday night/day games only for traffic. You get the dates you want and control the facility. You can combine the stadium with practice facility are other pluses.

[intoronto]

Thanks for the welcome !


Hence the $100 million BMO renovation being discussed, I see a pretty decent amount of Argonaut fans taking the Go Train from Burlington and increasing (as Paul stated) as you go east. Stadium has to be centrally located to suit the masses, I wouldn't be remotely interested in travelling to Pickering to see them play.
FC fans can object all they want but if the hypothetical MLSE purchase comes to fruition then it will become a dual purpose stadium.


Wouldn't you rather spend $100 million on a new stadium?

The York University site is not the current Pan Am Stadium. There is lands surrounding the university where a stadium can easily be sloted in. Two transit slots are there and its very close to a highway. I think its a win win as its accessible by car and transit, while being close to the 905.

Woodbine could also work, as the Woodbine Live redevelopment didn't work out, however its only accessible by car. What if someone doesn't have a car? A site needs to cater to people with cars and those who will commute with transit.

[Argo57]

Thanks for the welcome !




Wouldn't you rather spend $100 million on a new stadium?

The York University site is not the current Pan Am Stadium. There is lands surrounding the university where a stadium can easily be sloted in. Two transit slots are there and its very close to a highway. I think its a win win as its accessible by car and transit, while being close to the 905.

Woodbine could also work, as the Woodbine Live redevelopment didn't work out, however its only accessible by car. What if someone doesn't have a car? A site needs to cater to people with cars and those who will commute with transit.

A new stadium would cost $200 million or more, if MLSE chooses to purchase the Argos and spend $100 million on the Reno so be it.

[ArgosFanEastSide]

A new stadium would cost $200 million or more, if MLSE chooses to purchase the Argos and spend $100 million on the Reno so be it.

I keep seeing this $200 million number. It seems to be the general consensus. Can anyone tell me why? BMO Field's construction cost was $67.6 million and everyone is saying that set up would be fine. I mean sure, if you're going to throw all the bells and whistles on it will cost more, but I think it could be done for less.

[argolio]

At best people call BMO a bare-bones stadium. At worst they call it a P.O.S.

The proposed BMO reno calls for the stands to be covered. Some Argo fans would love a completely outdoor stadium, but others are ambivalent about an outdoor stadium after being in the dome for 25+ years. I think covered stands would be a compromise that would satisfy most fans.

The number of bells and whistles will ultimately depend on funding, and as with the location of a new stadium, we'll only find that out when there is something to announce.

[Neely2005]

Welcome to the site. Feel free to peruse the many threads that have dealt with this issue and continue to do so. Here is a summary of the salient points:

Everyone seems to accept that York is not an option. The team itself has said the footprint for a potential stadium there is too small.

Some fans believe the best options are in the North (such as Downsview, Woodbine, Vaughan or Markham) because they are easily accessible by car. Other say no location requiring a drive is truly easily accessible in Toronto's congested traffic.

Some fans say BMO is ideal because it accessible by highway and transit from all directions. (This of course is predicated on the stadium being rebuilt to accommodate Cdn football.) Others say BMO is a pain in the a-- to get to by car and transit.

Some fans believe that direct public transit from all directions must be available, as it is now. Others say it's OK to have one or two transit options (such as subway and Viva or whatever the regional public transit is called in the north) but not necessary to make the game easily accessible to those who now take GO Transit on the Lakeshore line.

A few other ideas have been floated (such as stadium in Mississauga, Oakville or now Pickering) but there does not seem to be any consensus in favour of those.

Some fans say they are sure that Braley will build his own stadium in the North. Others say they are sure Braley will not spend his own money on a stadium.

Some fans think being bought by MLSE (and moving into BMO) would be ideal because the team would have wealthy owners who would make merchandise available and support the team regardless. Others say being owned by MLSE would be a complete disaster because its teams never win.

Have I forgotten anything?

That's a pretty good summary. I think that the only thing that you forgot to mention is the TTC Subway extension that will be opening in Vaughan.


I keep seeing this $200 million number. It seems to be the general consensus. Can anyone tell me why? BMO Field's construction cost was $67.6 million and everyone is saying that set up would be fine. I mean sure, if you're going to throw all the bells and whistles on it will cost more, but I think it could be done for less.

I don't think that there were any land costs for BMO though.




The commissioner talks about a new stadium for the Argonauts:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2013/11/22/grey_cup_tim_leiweke_mark_cohon_and_city_choreogra ph_argo_dance_cox.bb.html

[ArgoRavi]

The commissioner talks about a new stadium for the Argonauts:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2013/11/22/grey_cup_tim_leiweke_mark_cohon_and_city_choreogra ph_argo_dance_cox.bb.html

Yep, and it is BMO Field, not surprisingly, that appears to be the focus.

[paulwoods13]

I keep seeing this $200 million number. It seems to be the general consensus. Can anyone tell me why? BMO Field's construction cost was $67.6 million and everyone is saying that set up would be fine. I mean sure, if you're going to throw all the bells and whistles on it will cost more, but I think it could be done for less.


The Pan-Am stadium in Hamilton is costing something like $150M, with no land cost, and it looks pretty bare-bones to me. Based on that, I think with land costs, a new Toronto stadium would cost well above $150M.

BMO as it stands now is not the quality of stadium we'd want long-term, although with the rumoured upgrades (projected to cost $100M) it could be a very nice long-term home for us.

[johnnyice]

The new stadium should be in the downtown Toronto area so that fans can enjoy the downtown area with countless quality restaurants plus the usual " chain " restaurants. Numerous out of town fans attend the games and spend the day & night . Games should be saved for Fr Sat nights /Sat & Sun afternoons .

[Gill The Thrill]

The Pan-Am stadium in Hamilton is costing something like $150M, with no land cost, and it looks pretty bare-bones to me. Based on that, I think with land costs, a new Toronto stadium would cost well above $150M.

BMO as it stands now is not the quality of stadium we'd want long-term, although with the rumoured upgrades (projected to cost $100M) it could be a very nice long-term home for us.

Are you referring to Tim Hortons Field in Hamilton. It does not look that bare bones to me...it has more walls and finished structure than BMO field, which is described by one poster on here as a "mechano standium". BMO as it stands now is not CFL calibre because of the seating. Surely a CFL stadium in Toronto should have more than 21,000 capacity, and probably no less than 30k, but at the very least 27-28K with an ability to expand to host Grey Cups. This needs to be considered if Rogers Centre changes their turf to natural grass but also changes their rotating 100 level sections to fix them permanently to baseball seating. That would pretty much ruin the football or soccer sightlines at Rogers Centre.

If bare bones means not having an unnecessary hotel built, or bronze gargoyles on the outside or carpeting on the concourse, then that's fine with me. Many of the great stadiums in other places don't have those and they provide a great atmosphere, better than any atmosphere the RC has.


The new stadium should be in the downtown Toronto area so that fans can enjoy the downtown area with countless quality restaurants plus the usual " chain " restaurants. Numerous out of town fans attend the games and spend the day & night . Games should be saved for Fr Sat nights /Sat & Sun afternoons .Contrary to one post in this thread...Downsview is not a 50 minute subway ride from Union Stadium. At most it's a 25 minute ride by transit and even car from some parts of downtown. If out of town fans spend day and night, it's definitely possible to enjoy a downtown restaurant close to your downtown hotel and then take one conveniant subway ride (with no transfers) to a possible stadium in Downsview which could have a natural tailgate atmosphere. That could work, much better than dealing with a horrible parking situation downtown, horrible traffic with closed streets, and another event like a basketball game like we had last Sunday...the supposed accessible walk to the stadium from Union Station can be 20 minutes on P.A.T.H when you take account of all the detours and stairs that you go through while walking because of the construction that seems to never end...that's about the same length of time that it would take for a nice comfortable ride on a TTC subway from Union to Downsview....and if you're driving, you have highways that move in all directions with no lake preventing traffic from moving in all 4 cardinal directions. Many stadiums in many major cities are not located downtown...Giants/Jets Stadium is not even in New York State, let alone New York City.

[Ron]

The commissioner talks about a new stadium for the Argonauts:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2013/11/22/grey_cup_tim_leiweke_mark_cohon_and_city_choreogra ph_argo_dance_cox.bb.html

He probably should have kept his big trap shut about MLSE the way he did about the other options..

[paulwoods13]

Are you referring to Tim Hortons Field in Hamilton. It does not look that bare bones to me...it has more walls and finished structure than BMO field, which is described by one poster on here as a "mechano standium". BMO as it stands now is not CFL calibre because of the seating. Surely a CFL stadium in Toronto should have more than 21,000 capacity, and probably no less than 30k, but at the very least 27-28K with an ability to expand to host Grey Cups. This needs to be considered if Rogers Centre changes their turf to natural grass but also changes their rotating 100 level sections to fix them permanently to baseball seating. That would pretty much ruin the football or soccer sightlines at Rogers Centre.

If bare bones means not having an unnecessary hotel built, or bronze gargoyles on the outside or carpeting on the concourse, then that's fine with me. Many of the great stadiums in other places don't have those and they provide a great atmosphere, better than any atmosphere the RC has.

Yes, I'm referring to THF, and yes, I think it's going to be pretty bare bones (and certainly not the "state-of-the-art" stadium it has been touted to be). That's not to say it won't have a great atmosphere. But I think it's naïve to think a good-enough stadium can be built in Toronto for $150M if that's what's being built in Hamilton WITH NO LAND COST.

[Neely2005]

Yep, and it is BMO Field, not surprisingly, that appears to be the focus.
"The CFL says business is better than ever and wants monolithic Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment to join the party.
And what does MLSE think of this?
Not so fast, says Tim Leiweke, not so fast.
Specifically, says MLSE’s chief executive officer, it’s not primarily the sports conglomerate’s call on whether the Argos should join Toronto FC as a tenant at BMO Field on the Canadian National Exhibition grounds, which is very much what CFL commissioner Mark Cohon would like to see happen.
“I wouldn’t put a line in the sand and say (the Argos) have to be downtown but it would be great if that came to fruition,” said Cohon on Friday in his state-of-the-league address at the 101st Grey Cup.

Cohon said there was “definitely lots of interest” from nearby municipalities in becoming the new home of the Argos after they move out of the Rogers Centre in 2017, although he wasn’t willing to name any of them."

He was, however, more than happy to toss the names of MLSE and BMO Field out front and centre, which seemed to throw the pigskin into Leiweke’s lap.
“The city drives this issue, not us,” said Leiweke in an interview from South Carolina. “We don’t own the stadium.”
The city’s a little busy these days putting out brush fires in the mayor’s office, so nobody’s quite sure what municipal politicians feel about this matter.

For MLSE, it’s a piping hot potato. The long-suffering fans of Toronto FC absolutely detest the notion of their home stadium — built at a cost of $62 million — being renovated to fit the needs of a CFL franchise.
After years of losing and growing fan disenchantment, Leiweke is listening to TFC supporters, which means saving the Argos isn’t on his priority list.
“Our first focus has been and continue to be how we fix BMO Field for soccer,” he said. “That has to be highest priority. We have to make it better than it is for soccer. We can’t ask our fans to sacrifice their views or their environment.
“Our soccer fans get mad at us when this football thing comes up, and we are not going to declare war on our fans.”

[ArgoGabe22]

Yes, I'm referring to THF, and yes, I think it's going to be pretty bare bones (and certainly not the "state-of-the-art" stadium it has been touted to be). That's not to say it won't have a great atmosphere. But I think it's naïve to think a good-enough stadium can be built in Toronto for $150M if that's what's being built in Hamilton WITH NO LAND COST.

Not again. We already had this discussion before and yes I do think THF is bare bones. Not as bad as BMO but I agree it is not state of the art.

[Neely2005]

My sense is it comes down to if your a driver or transit user:

The BMO option is assumed at retrofitted stadium to bring it up to professional standards. If you believe MLSE, Two england-style roofs, upgraded seats, expanding seating/boxes, to 25-30k are a must. Closer to IGF in winnipeg. You get transit access and Friday night games are an option, but you have to scheduling conflicts with TFC and field turn over time.

Vaughan-ish ultra-suburan option would be bare bones Tim Hortons Field style. 90% drive-in/drive-out. Probably saturday night/day games only for traffic. You get the dates you want and control the facility. You can combine the stadium with practice facility are other pluses.

Vaughan has highways and transit.

400, 407, 427, 7, 27 & 50.

TTC Subway stops, Viva High Speed busses and YRT.

Existing shopping, restaurants and parking.


The new stadium should be in the downtown Toronto area so that fans can enjoy the downtown area with countless quality restaurants plus the usual " chain " restaurants. Numerous out of town fans attend the games and spend the day & night . Games should be saved for Fr Sat nights /Sat & Sun afternoons .

So not at BMO Field then as the only decent sized restaurant near by is Shoeless Joes at King and Dufferin and that's about a 15 minute walk.

I guess that you would also have the Food Building during the CNE but you also lose parking and highway access from Dufferin and Strachan Avenue / Princes Gate.

Vaughan has those restaurants already.


Contrary to one post in this thread...Downsview is not a 50 minute subway ride from Union Stadium. At most it's a 25 minute ride by transit and even car from some parts of downtown. If out of town fans spend day and night, it's definitely possible to enjoy a downtown restaurant close to your downtown hotel and then take one conveniant subway ride (with no transfers) to a possible stadium in Downsview which could have a natural tailgate atmosphere. That could work, much better than dealing with a horrible parking situation downtown, horrible traffic with closed streets, and another event like a basketball game like we had last Sunday...the supposed accessible walk to the stadium from Union Station can be 20 minutes on P.A.T.H when you take account of all the detours and stairs that you go through while walking because of the construction that seems to never end...that's about the same length of time that it would take for a nice comfortable ride on a TTC subway from Union to Downsview....and if you're driving, you have highways that move in all directions with no lake preventing traffic from moving in all 4 cardinal directions. Many stadiums in many major cities are not located downtown...Giants/Jets Stadium is not even in New York State, let alone New York City.

What highway access does Downsview have?

Go a couple more stops on that Subway line and you'll be in Vaughan with real highway access.

[AngeloV]

What highway access does Downsview have?

Go a couple more stops on that Subway line and you'll be in Vaughan with real highway access.

A real highway access that'll cost $15-20 per way for those coming from Oakville or Durham region. IMO, the 407 shouldn't enter the equation of being hwy access to a stadium. I live right by the 407, and do often take it, but man do I grumble when I get my monthly bill.

[Treblecharger1]

MLSE will be buying the Argos.... Tim has to save face with the soccer fans a little bit here.. The Argos wil be at BMO field by 2015 in my opinion.

[Neely2005]

A real highway access that'll cost $15-20 per way for those coming from Oakville or Durham region. IMO, the 407 shouldn't enter the equation of being hwy access to a stadium. I live right by the 407, and do often take it, but man do I grumble when I get my monthly bill.

Sounds like the round trip cost for 2 people on the TTC or GO Transit.

[Argocister]

I haven't voted as to a specific location here, as whatever is best for the team should dictate the location.
I live 1-1.5 hrs from downtown, so if the stadium is moved still within the same driving distance I will still go.
The Argos are in a unique situation, as most other teams do not have the choice.

Downtown Location: Often when there is a game i will make a day or two visit to the downtown core (except of course for the midweek games ... Thursday isnt bad) .... there are so many options for a couple day visit that I am surprised that the city of Toronto doesn't recognize that. I'm not going to Hamilton for a couple of days.... maybe Montreal ..... but Toronto downtown does offer that to the Argos fans that will not be replaced by heading out to the burbs. Yes I will still visit the downtown core, but I definitly go more frequently with the Argo games.

Outside Location: I will probably still go to a burb location as well.It will not be the couple day venue but if it allows tailgating .... I can manage a DD, and have my tailgating stuff ready .... I can still bring people.

I really hope the Argos do their homework and find out what the fans like of each location, which fans will be affected by their choice. Are the newer fans coming from the burbs? .... You know the full SWOT analysis. Once done, then lets not settle for second best.... do what is best for the Argos and their fans. I am sure Rudge is doing this.

[Will]

Ah the SWOT analysis. Biggest cliche in business school along with Michael Porter's five forces and Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

[Gill The Thrill]

He probably should have kept his big trap shut about MLSE the way he did about the other options..

I agree, he should've kept his mouth shut about MLSE, it makes the CFL and Cohon come across as desperate...How would you also feel if you were another nearby municipality who was interested in building a stadium facility for the Argos...I'd feel pissed if I was a developer or mayor of a nearby municipality who was courting the Argos.

Because of Cohon's big mouth seeing him go go-goo-ga-ga over the prospects of the Greatest sports empire (said with tongue in cheek, believe me) owning the Argos, I seriously question whether there are any other options being discussed...I could be proven and in many ways I hope I am. I personally don't want to see the Argos as a second tennant to an MLS soccer team, under the MLSE umbrella. Some on here may believe that the Argos may have a higher profile, but the other argument could be that they will be just as marginalized and buried under the other MLSE sports properties.

Remember MLSE also owns the Marlies, and ask yourself if you want an owner that will treat the Argos as a cherished property with their own stadium, which is what an independent owner would do, or ask yourself if you want MLSE to perhaps treat the Argos as a 2nd class property like they do the Marlies in comparison to Leafs, Raptors and even God forbid...TFC.

PS- speaking of TFC, would MLSE also change the name of this sorry franchise if they buy the Argos. They would then own 2 football teams, one in Association football (soccer) and one in Canadian Gridiron Football. I was never a fan of the TFC name because of this...TSC ok, Toronto FC was a cheap ploy to pretend to be Liverpool FC. Even their Red uniforms was made to copy this and so is there nickname as they are referred to as the Reds....Hmm, "Reds", no wonder why I'm not a fan.:D


What highway access does Downsview have?

Go a couple more stops on that Subway line and you'll be in Vaughan with real highway access.

Pretty much all the ones you mentioned...the biggest highway in Canada and the 2nd busiest freeway in North America being the 401 is a stone's through from Downsview, the 400, the Allen Expressway, The DVP and 404, Black Creek Drive, Hwy 427, not just the 27....it's also relatively close to the Vaughan (Hwy7) as
corridor, and there are many alternative city routes that could dissipate traffic from many directions.

I think Downsview is an excellent compromise...the team would still be in the middle of Toronto and not be more than a half hour north of it's present location. If Vaughan is serious then that's fine, I'd be willing to go west toward those empty parcels of land on 427 and 7 or at Woodbine, but then it no longer becomes a direct route from Union Station.

As I've said before, it's to the point where they've just got to get out of that dome for Regular season games and maybe even playoff games if they can no longer be accomadated at the dome...their presence is invisible at the dome now during the season. Let's not even pretend that the Argos have a huge following in Downtown compared to the 416 burbs and 905 burbs...half the Argo fans showed up late last week because of the snarled traffic downtown. Had it not been for the Ticat faithful, which saddens me to say, the attendance for the Eastern Final would have been embarrassing. Possibly lower than the awful Eastern Final attendance to close out the CNE in 1988.

[cflsteve]

At this point I think the MLSE has already over extended itself with the purchase of the MLS franchise TFC. I appears to me that making a turn around for the franchise on the field will be there priority. The lack of attendance would have much to do with there very poor play and records.
Also getting their focus back on making the Leafs a Stanley Cup Champion. Those fans will come and support no matter what as one of the original 6 franchises plus a some of the new franchises over the years have a strong wupportive fan base no matter what.
I think that the Argos conversation came to be about simply as a way to get the renos on BMO to be paid for by the govt. As they found out though bringing the Argos and the CFL to BMO may isolate the loyal supporters of TFC.

There simply is not enough support for the Argos from those who live in Toronto and there will be no $$$ from govt to build another pro sport specific stadium.
I am going to stick to my opinion that moving the Argos out of downtown and into a GTA Region and Municiplity is what is best and has been prove to be a recipe for success in every major city in North America that have 5 or more pro sports franchises. NFL, NHL, NBA, mlb, and MLS all have venues outside of the city and into what has become highly populated Metro regions ans well as stadium in areas outside the city with excellent access from many roadways to the stadium from all parts of the metro region.
For the Argos it will be more about bringing the CFL and a pro sport to a well populated part of the metro region outside the city where there are currently 5 teams home playing venue within 3 miles of each other of the downtown section.
JMO of course but this would be the first time that this has had to be done in Canada as Toronto has grown into one of the biggest Metro regions in North America and the first Canadian one to have 5 pro sports teams.

[Shatto]

Possible senario: Leiweke wants to renovate BMO stadium to keep the soccer fans attending but he does not want to shell out the $100 million needed to bring up to a first class stadium. His answer---get different levels of the government to pay for the improvements. His approach--make the stadium accommodate a CFL field and invite the Argos to play there. But he needs to profess that this will really be hard on his present tenant (TFC) so he needs to be persuaded (through govt funding) to make these changes. It looks as if it all about money folks--MLSE is an expert at getting others to pay for want they want.

[cflsteve]

Possible senario: Leiweke wants to renovate BMO stadium to keep the soccer fans attending but he does not want to shell out the $100 million needed to bring up to a first class stadium. His answer---get different levels of the government to pay for the improvements. His approach--make the stadium accommodate a CFL field and invite the Argos to play there. But he needs to profess that this will really be hard on his present tenant (TFC) so he needs to be persuaded (through govt funding) to make these changes. It looks as if it all about money folks--MLSE is an expert at getting others to pay for want they want.


well said. That sums up their interest in the Argos

[ArgoRavi]

I agree, he should've kept his mouth shut about MLSE, it makes the CFL and Cohon come across as desperate...How would you also feel if you were another nearby municipality who was interested in building a stadium facility for the Argos...I'd feel pissed if I was a developer or mayor of a nearby municipality who was courting the Argos.

Because of Cohon's big mouth seeing him go go-goo-ga-ga over the prospects of the Greatest sports empire (said with tongue in cheek, believe me) owning the Argos, I seriously question whether there are any other options being discussed...I could be proven and in many ways I hope I am.

Follow the money, folks. There are no options other than BMO Field. Braley isn't putting one cent of his own money into a brand new, $200 million stadium and we have ample evidence in this country that other private interests aren't going to either unless the governments at various levels contribute the lion's share and that is not happening in Downsview, Vaughn, etc. You might be able to get some government money to upgrade BMO but that is all you are going to get from taxpayers.

[cflsteve]

Along the same line Rogers themselves could easily own the Argos and be a main private source of funding of a new stadium in the GTA outside the city. Problem is that they left the CFL for dead a few years ago and now are too stubborn to admith they were wrong.
Owning the Argos in a new stadium would first change their perception of many people.
As for their reasoning for not owning the Argos is because they have no rights to Televise the CFL games. However, there are many other ways in which they could profit off of their media outlets and the Argos.
First bringing the Argos radio back to their Radio Networks and Broadcast the games not just in Toronto but in other regions as well inside and out of Ontario.
A weekly show on the Argos on at least Rogers Sportsnet Ontario and Nationally on sportsnet 360.
Sale of Argos merchandise at Blue Jays games and other events at RC as well as selling Blue Jays Merchandise at Arogo games synergy.
Right now when the CFL needs a go to place to host the Grey Cup Vancuouver, British Columbia, and the Lions have been smart enough to support the CFL and with the Grey Cup bringing in records amount of revenue of all kinds for team city province and stadium as well as TV ratings.
CFL and TSN partnership would love to have more Grey Cups in Toronto at Rogers Centre and Rogers has the media outlets to promote it at no additional costs.
But they won't will be their loss and be someone else gain

[1argoholic]

Rogers WILL NOT SUPPORT OR GIVE A RATS ASS ABOUT The Argonauts anytime soon. They care about their crummy Jays and nothing more. They go out of their way to screw the Argonauts over. Just look at our schedule from this year. FARCE.

[mac_davy]

Possible senario: Leiweke wants to renovate BMO stadium to keep the soccer fans attending but he does not want to shell out the $100 million needed to bring up to a first class stadium. His answer---get different levels of the government to pay for the improvements. His approach--make the stadium accommodate a CFL field and invite the Argos to play there. But he needs to profess that this will really be hard on his present tenant (TFC) so he needs to be persuaded (through govt funding) to make these changes. It looks as if it all about money folks--MLSE is an expert at getting others to pay for want they want.

city council explicitly stated that this stadium was supposed to be suitable for Canadian football in addition to soccer. That was why it received the public funding. Its pisses me off Toronto FC fans believe that this is their stadium and theirs only, and in truth MLSE should be made to pay for some of the upgrades as it was their deceit the led to the stadium being built to small.

[1argoholic]

mac_davy you said it all man. I have no use for my Toronto Argonauts playing in that stadium however. Only in TO would fans of an upstart team hate fans of the oldest Pro team in North America for no reason at all. I really hope that we go in a different direction and have our own sweet little stadium.

[Qman]

is basically
- ultra-suburn -- very low land cost, stadium is a tag-on as part of major commericial development, developer paid stadium with some municipal/prov govt thrown in;
- BMO -- partial infrastructure there already, MLSE says they will pay for upgrades. My sense they are more interested in any public money they may be available to an argos project

Anywhere in the city proper has no chance (downsview, etc) due to land cost. So stop posting this over and over unless you have $50million in your back pocket.

Braley has said over and over again through the years he won't put a cent into any stadium construction. Note: he is getting more and more into real estate development, so he may be part of that.

[mac_davy]

mac_davy you said it all man. I have no use for my Toronto Argonauts playing in that stadium however. Only in TO would fans of an upstart team hate fans of the oldest Pro team in North America for no reason at all. I really hope that we go in a different direction and have our own sweet little stadium.

Its just angers me to see how much disrespect the Argos get, not only from your own media, but then these FC fans, I just don't get the divisions in your city. Out here in Vancouver my Lions and the Caps use they the same facility, the sport hall of fame and the concourse is loaded with many tributes to Lions and Caps players from the past it make the stadium feel alive and rich in history, our neighbours to the south in Seattle have the same set up with the Sounders and Seahawks, never once did I hear a Seahawks fan whine when the MLS moved in to Qwest field, only in Toronto do I see just garbage and selfishness from fans of other sports in there own city, and your media. When I read Dan Bilicki blog on grey cup this morning my jaw dropped, isn't the Sun supposed consider its self to be premier Toronto paper, and to allow that drivel to be posted just show how amateurish it is.

[ardesh]

To put it bluntly Toronto FC football fans (including myself) do not want a minor league gridiron league invading our stadium. Build your own.

[paulwoods13]

To put it bluntly Toronto FC football fans (including myself) do not want a minor league gridiron league invading our stadium. Build your own.

Just FOI, if the CFL is minor league gridiron football, what brand of soccer is MLS?

[Neely2005]

To put it bluntly Toronto FC football fans (including myself) do not want a minor league gridiron league invading our stadium. Build your own.

I want no part of BMO Field but you do realize that it's owned by the City of Toronto and part of the mandate when it was built was that it had to accommodate CFL Football?

Also I find it ironic that a MLS fan would call any other league "minor".

[Neely2005]

Just FOI, if the CFL is minor league gridiron football, what brand of soccer is MLS?

House League.

[ardesh]

MLS is the top level of football in North America.

[Neely2005]

MLS is the top level of football in North America.

I thought that was the NFL?

[ArgoRavi]

MLS is the top level of football in North America.

And the CFL is the top level of Canadian gridiron football in the world.

[ardesh]

I thought that was the NFL?

NO NFL is the highest form of gridiron

Anyways I think the best stadium option for the Argos is partnering with U OF T to expand Varsity. If the Argos pitch in 20% University 20% Federal 30% Province 30% I think its feasible.

[Argocister]

NO NFL is the highest form of gridiron

Anyways I think the best stadium option for the Argos is partnering with U OF T to expand Varsity. If the Argos pitch in 20% University 20% Federal 30% Province 30% I think its feasible.

This opportunity sailed past the Argos a few years ago ...... unless you have some new info?




Listening to the garbage news wrt the Bills/BonJovi/MLSE fodder, I'm thinking ..... yea the Argos will have to move out of downtown, only to have the Bills come in and be welcomed to the downtown by the TO Council with $ to build a new stadium on the Ontario Place site. .... wash my mouth out with soap right now!

[Neely2005]

NO NFL is the highest form of gridiron

Anyways I think the best stadium option for the Argos is partnering with U OF T to expand Varsity. If the Argos pitch in 20% University 20% Federal 30% Province 30% I think its feasible.

So what does the 'S' in MLS stand for?
So what does the 'F' in NFL stand for?

Varsity can't be expanded. BMO Field can.


Listening to the garbage news wrt the Bills/BonJovi/MLSE fodder, I'm thinking ..... yea the Argos will have to move out of downtown, only to have the Bills come in and be welcomed to the downtown by the TO Council with $ to build a new stadium on the Ontario Place site. .... wash my mouth out with soap right now!

I can't see any level of government giving money to build a NFL stadium.

[paulwoods13]

MLS is the top level of football in North America.

Which makes it what level in the world?

[Mulder]

To put it bluntly Toronto FC football fans (including myself) do not want a minor league gridiron league invading our stadium. Build your own.

To put it even more bluntly, if you come here to call our league as being "minor" when the MLS salary cap is lower than the CFL's. And attempt to insult the league, the teams and fans, you will be banned so quick and your email signed for spam.

We already have one huge TFC fan here who arguers from the TFC point, But at least he does it in a respectful manor and has valid points. Oh and he's also a huge Toronto sports fan. And not a 1-2 team pony while putting down the rest. Many of us here cheer for the TORONTO in the various team names..the other part is irrelevant.

[AngeloV]

Sounds like the round trip cost for 2 people on the TTC or GO Transit.

Aren't you the same person that brought up gas and wear and tear on the vehicle in a previous thread concerning traffic for the Eastern final? Sounds like you want it both ways when it comes to supporting your argument.

Living in Thornhill, Vaughan would be great for me, but overall, I still think the Toronto Argonauts need to be in Toronto.

[Argocister]

to put it even more bluntly, if you come here to call our league as being "minor" when the mls salary cap is lower than the cfl's. And attempt to insult the league, the teams and fans, you will be banned so quick and your email signed for spam.

........t.

Yea Mulder!!!

:angry:

[mac_davy]

To put it even more bluntly, if you come here to call our league as being "minor" when the MLS salary cap is lower than the CFL's. And attempt to insult the league, the teams and fans, you will be banned so quick and your email signed for spam.

We already have one huge TFC fan here who arguers from the TFC point, But at least he does it in a respectful manor and has valid points. Oh and he's also a huge Toronto sports fan. And not a 1-2 team pony while putting down the rest. Many of us here cheer for the TORONTO in the various team names..the other part is irrelevant.

appreciated Mulder, ive said this before and i repeat this again, i dont get why these TFC fans think they are entitled to the facility only, its a tax payers owned stadium. Why the hate on for the Argos, We happily share a newly renovated BC place with our MLS fans here, the stadium received funding to make it a fantastic place for next few decades of Vancouver sports. I newly renovated BMO with a roof and expanded seating and concourse would be a win win for TFC and Argo fans, but isnt going to happen unless the Argos are apart of it.

[ardesh]

To put it even more bluntly, if you come here to call our league as being "minor" when the MLS salary cap is lower than the CFL's. And attempt to insult the league, the teams and fans, you will be banned so quick and your email signed for spam.

We already have one huge TFC fan here who arguers from the TFC point, But at least he does it in a respectful manor and has valid points. Oh and he's also a huge Toronto sports fan. And not a 1-2 team pony while putting down the rest. Many of us here cheer for the TORONTO in the various team names..the other part is irrelevant.

Some players (like Clint Dempsey) make more then one entire CFL team so what's your point?

I am a huge Toronto sports fan for all sports including the Argos. I just don't want BMO field ruined for gridiron.

I never knew Varsity couldn't be expanded. How about Lamport Stadium then? I would think renovating that would be cheaper then building a newer stadium.

[Deerkeeper]

MLS is the top level of football in North America.Which is roughly equivalent to being the top alpine skier in Ethiopia.

[Mulder]

Some players (like Clint Dempsey) make more then one entire CFL team so what's your point?

I am a huge Toronto sports fan for all sports including the Argos. I just don't want BMO field ruined for gridiron.

I never knew Varsity couldn't be expanded. How about Lamport Stadium then? I would think renovating that would be cheaper then building a newer stadium.
.
Didn't CFL have sort of a designated player rule at one time too? Rocket Ismail comes to mind. It was eventually deemed bad for the league, and other players on the team.
You wouldn't want to lose a marquee Canadian player because you signed 3 under preforming DP's right? Doesn't Dwayne De Rosario come to mind in that situation??

[Treblecharger1]

I have season tickets for both TFC and the Toronto Argonauts... And if the Toronto Argonauts fell that BMO field is the best solution for them ( and it is) that is where they should be. That stadium was never suppose to be a Soccer only facility and yes the previous Argos owners fumbled the ball ( many times and screwed over the CSA for that matter many times) it has nothing to do with the current ownership situation. As a taxpayer it also provides better ROI to the City of Toronto having them in that facility.

[1argoholic]

TFC fans remind me of spoiled brat kids of today that expect everything and feel entitled but have not gained any respect in the least for anything. Take..take..take but have not earned crap. I really hope that we don't go down that road with MLSE.

[Neely2005]

Some players (like Clint Dempsey) make more then one entire CFL team so what's your point?

I am a huge Toronto sports fan for all sports including the Argos. I just don't want BMO field ruined for gridiron.

I never knew Varsity couldn't be expanded. How about Lamport Stadium then? I would think renovating that would be cheaper then building a newer stadium.

You do realize that the Argonauts average Regular Season Attendance was about 22,000 per game, right? They also had about 36000 at this year's playoff game. Lamport Stadium has a capacity of 9600.

The only existing stadium in Toronto that could be expanded/renovated for the Argonauts is BMO Field.

[ardesh]

You do realize that the Argonauts average Regular Season Attendance was about 22,000 per game, right? They also had about 36000 at this year's playoff game. Lamport Stadium has a capacity of 9600.

The only existing stadium in Toronto that could be expanded/renovated for the Argonauts is BMO Field.

Yes I do realize that. If that;s the only option the Argos are not going to come to BMO. TFC Fans have spoken and do not want the Argos on their pitch.

[Tau Ceti]

Yes I do realize that. If that;s the only option the Argos are not going to come to BMO. TFC Fans have spoken and do not want the Argos on their pitch.

This is becoming increasingly circular but I'll repeat the obvious: TFC fans don't own BMO field; the City of Toronto (and by extension its residents) own BMO field. I wouldn't happy either if I were a TFC fan but the soccer club does not have a veto.

[paulwoods13]

It's lovely that MLSE plans to "listen to" TFC's fans, but they will do whatever they deem makes the most sense from a business standpoint. Any TFC fan who believes that MLSE will not put the Argos into BMO simply because TFC fans won't tolerate it either does not understand or does not want to admit how MLSE -- or any massively successful business, for that matter -- operates.

[LLB997]

CFL did the whole cap exempt thing 20 yrs ago (Ismail,Flutie) and it didn't work for the CFL just like it hasn't worked for the MLS. MLS is a retirement league for over the hill stars. You will see the odd CFL guy go to the NFL. The MLS however is the last train at the station carreer wise. As for being the best soccer in North America, lol, here's where the IFFHS ranks the MLS--> http://bleacherreport.com/articles/423659-congrats-mls-you-are-ranked-88th-in-the-world Congrats MLS, you are ranked 88th in the world.

[Neely2005]

Yes I do realize that. If that;s the only option the Argos are not going to come to BMO. TFC Fans have spoken and do not want the Argos on their pitch.

Personally I don't want the Argonauts at BMO Field as it's a sub par stadium in a sub par location but it's not up to MLSE as they don't own the stadium.

BMO Field is owned by the City of Toronto and the Argonauts are much more popular than TFC.

[LLB997]

Personally I don't want the Argonauts at BMO Field as it's a sub par stadium in a sub par location but it's not up to MLSE as they don't own the stadium.

BMO Field is owned by the City of Toronto and the Argonauts are much more popular than TFC. I just do not trust MLSE. their intentions cannot be trusted in respect to the ARGOS.

[Neely2005]

I just do not trust MLSE. their intentions cannot be trusted in respect to the ARGOS.

Agreed, I don't trust MLSE.

[rdavies]

Ah the SWOT analysis. Biggest cliche in business school along with and Maslow's hierarchy of needs.Oh man you made me laugh there. Good ol Abe Maslow. That damn triangle came up in every business course I took.


MLS is the top level of football in North America.No, Mexican League ranked higher


To put it even more bluntly, if you come here to call our league as being "minor" when the MLS salary cap is lower than the CFL's. Even more crazy, the CFL's TV ratings are much higher on the Deuce (ESPN 2) than MLS.

[Argocister]

Even more crazy, the CFL's TV ratings are much higher on the Deuce (ESPN 2) than MLS.

We need a like button!

[Qman]

MLS is the top level of football in North America.

Mexican league clubs make MLS look like local senior soccer

[Gill The Thrill]

Aren't you the same person that brought up gas and wear and tear on the vehicle in a previous thread concerning traffic for the Eastern final? Sounds like you want it both ways when it comes to supporting your argument.

Living in Thornhill, Vaughan would be great for me, but overall, I still think the Toronto Argonauts need to be in Toronto.You know a passport is not required to cross Steeles Ave....fact is the Metropolitan urban area has been moving northward for decades now.

The passport comment is also in reference to media coverage of the Argos...I can't see the media giving the Argos any less coverage, and with possibly renewed interest and a better atmosphere at a non-downtown stadium, coverage and relevance from the media could actually increase.

[paulwoods13]

You know a passport is not required to cross Steeles Ave....fact is the Metropolitan urban area has been moving northward for decades now.


Seems to me it has been moving west, north and east for decades now, actually. In other words, in every available direction.

[Neely2005]

This was posted in another Thread but it's probably relevant here too:


it looks like you are correct. from what i was told, MLSE never thought Braley would have the stones to build a new Home for the Argos. Then they found out how serious Braley was and that it was going to be a muliti purpose stadium, with a bubble for the winter. He was very close to a deal with Markham and or Mississauga. Once MLSE heard this, they approched him. Now Braley wants big bucks, This deal would have been done 3 months ago. MLSE offered up 8 million. Braley came back with 20 Million. This is all about controling football in T.O and stoping Braley from building a stadium. Now from what i hear, Bralley is demanding first rights to buy back the Argos and the option of a small ownership stake if MLSE does attract a NFL team. I think MLSE will own the Argos in 2014 and if they do, we will be playing at a revamp BMO

[ardesh]

Did the Argos ever discuss Varsity?

[Tau Ceti]

Did the Argos ever discuss Varsity?
The Argos almost cemented a deal to get back into Varsity in 2004. The U of T pulled out. Plenty of articles out there on how it fell through. Here's one: http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/CFL/Toronto/2004/11/04/700446.html

[hugoagogo]

When you consider that some key MLS teams (Seattle, Vancouver, New England) play in stadiums that service both football and soccer (and on field turf no less)...well...I know where I'd place my money on how this one is going to play out.

[Neely2005]

The Argos almost cemented a deal to get back into Varsity in 2004. The U of T pulled out. Plenty of articles out there on how it fell through. Here's one: http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/CFL/Toronto/2004/11/04/700446.html

And apparently the way that the current Varsity Stadium has been configured it won't allow for significant expansion.

[Neely2005]

This was posted in the other Thread. It looks like it's going to be BMO Field:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/01/19/mlses_leiweke_taxpayers_would_be_paid_back_for_bmo _field_expansion.bb.html

:(

[argofandave]

Both Rob & Doug Ford were on the Fan590 today around 4:30pm. I didn't hear the whole interview but they were asked about the NFL in Toronto. They both think that it'll happen within 5-10 years because the NFL cannot ignore the 4th largest market in North America anymore. They also said that the best place to build a stadium is at Woodbine since it has the best access and that Downsview won't work because the people that live in that area don't want a stadium there. Doug said that they could easily sell 40,000 seat licences at $20,000 each within the first three days of them going on sale to help pay for the stadium.

[Argo57]

Both Rob & Doug Ford were on the Fan590 today around 4:30pm. I didn't hear the whole interview but they were asked about the NFL in Toronto. They both think that it'll happen within 5-10 years because the NFL cannot ignore the 4th largest market in North America anymore. They also said that the best place to build a stadium is at Woodbine since it has the best access and that Downsview won't work because the people that live in that area don't want a stadium there. Doug said that they could easily sell 40,000 seat licences at $20,000 each within the first three days of them going on sale to help pay for the stadium.

Shocking that the Ford brothers think Woodbine is the best location, right in their backyard.

[ArgoRavi]

Doug said that they could easily sell 40,000 seat licences at $20,000 each within the first three days of them going on sale to help pay for the stadium.

Sounds a bit like those claims that Stephen Brunt and others made about the Bills games in Toronto.

[argolio]

They both think that it'll happen within 5-10 years because the NFL cannot ignore the 4th largest market in North America anymore.If L.A. can be ignored for 20 years, it's pretty easy for Toronto to be completely invisible to the NFL.

Anyway, who cares what the Fords think? Those two fools will both be gone after October.

[paulwoods13]

Considering how many votes they are losing 40-2 at city council these days, I'm happy to have those clowns advocating for an NFL team.

[Neely2005]

Shocking that the Ford brothers think Woodbine is the best location, right in their backyard.

I thought that they lived in Etobicoke?

[doubleblue]

This is after all an election year. Mayor Ford would know that over 60% of the Argo season ticket holders come from outside Toronto proper in the GTA. We don't have a vote.
However, the name of the game is to tell the gullible voter what they want to hear. The ones that don't pay much attention until voting time. If the message sounds like the Fords are going to have a stadium and a NFL team for those fans and that's all they care about, the Ford's get that vote. Then you blame the lefties on Council when it doesn't happen. lol

[Argo57]

I thought that they lived in Etobicoke?

Etobicoke encompasses a rather large area.

[argotom]

Both Rob & Doug Ford were on the Fan590 today around 4:30pm. I didn't hear the whole interview but they were asked about the NFL in Toronto. They both think that it'll happen within 5-10 years because the NFL cannot ignore the 4th largest market in North America anymore. They also said that the best place to build a stadium is at Woodbine since it has the best access and that Downsview won't work because the people that live in that area don't want a stadium there. Doug said that they could easily sell 40,000 seat licences at $20,000 each within the first three days of them going on sale to help pay for the stadium.


Yea right for this entire quote.
The one specifically that is more ludicrous is 40k fans each paying $20k licence fees.

[LLB997]

Wow, what a joke these 2 are. I feel really good about the situation knowing that these 2 hash dealers take the opposing view.

[ArgoRavi]

Wow, what a joke these 2 are. I feel really good about the situation knowing that these 2 hash dealers take the opposing view.

I have no doubt that these two guys crave the U.S. media attention that Rob Ford has been getting and that part of their reason for wanting an NFL team is to keep the Fords on the U.S. map.

[bluto]

Yea right for this entire quote.
The one specifically that is more ludicrous is 40k fans each paying $20k licence fees.

actually for me, that bit about 40k fans each ponying up $20k was the only part of the quote which i found outlandish.

[Deerkeeper]

actually for me, that bit about 40k fans each ponying up $20k was the only part of the quote which i found outlandish.

I was wondering what those two fools were smoking to come up with a figure like that, but then I realized that we all ready know.

Did anyone on the Rogers Broadcasting Network question them on their figures, or better still, laugh in their faces? Oh wait a minute, I think I all ready know the answer to that one as well.

[ArgoRavi]

actually for me, that bit about 40k fans each ponying up $20k was the only part of the quote which i found outlandish.

The assumption on the Fords' part is that the NFL is as ingrained in the Toronto culture as it is in the U.S. That is possibly the only way that you can get 40k people ponying up that kind of money for a freaking seat license for an NFL team. However, I really don't think that the NFL is as ingrained in the Toronto culture as they seem to think it is. You might be able to get 20k people ponying up an insane amount of money for an NHL seat license in Toronto but I can't see it for the NFL.

[argofandave]

The assumption on the Fords' part is that the NFL is as ingrained in the Toronto culture as it is in the U.S. That is possibly the only way that you can get 40k people ponying up that kind of money for a freaking seat license for an NFL team. However, I really don't think that the NFL is as ingrained in the Toronto culture as they seem to think it is. You might be able to get 20k people ponying up an insane amount of money for an NHL seat license in Toronto but I can't see it for the NFL.
Another thing that the Ford's said was that Toronto would get an NFL team before they got a second NHL team.

[Neely2005]

Another thing that the Ford's said was that Toronto would get an NFL team before they got a second NHL team.

Well he's technically probably right about that because if we get a second NHL team it won't be in Toronto it'll be in the 905 Area Code.

[argonaut11xx]

I think the majority of Toronto's hardcore NFL fans are between 18 and 35, males....a GREAT demographic, but my bet is the vast majority of these folks who show up in the pub's sporting an NFL jersey, are probably still living at home with their parents, and could only pony up 20K if they won a lottery

[ArgoRavi]

I think the majority of Toronto's hardcore NFL fans are between 18 and 35, males....a GREAT demographic, but my bet is the vast majority of these folks who show up in the pub's sporting an NFL jersey, are probably still living at home with their parents, and could only pony up 20K if they won a lottery

Or if they won that much in their office pool. I often wonder just how popular the NFL would be in Toronto and Canada if it weren't for gambling.

[AngeloV]

Or if they won that much in their office pool. I often wonder just how popular the NFL would be in Toronto and Canada if it weren't for gambling.

Good question. Those that like the game for what it is, are probably also CFL fans. The ones that give into peer pressure and are closet CFL fans (to avoid being ridiculed by the clueless gambling types that "hate the CFL"), would likely follow the NFL as well.

[Neely2005]

It looks like there is still a slim chance that the Argonauts will Not end up at BMO Field:

"Braley is open to negotiating a move to a renovated BMO Field, owned by the city of Toronto and operated by Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment. President and CEO Tim Leiweke has floated the idea of an expanded 30,000-seat stadium with a hybrid grass/turf field to accommodate both Toronto FC and the Argos.


Still, Braley said he’s also had discussions with the suburban cities of Mississauga and Vaughan as prospective landing spots for the Argos, who will be orphaned after the 2017 season. Rogers Centre intends to install a grass field for the baseball Blue Jays and won’t extend the CFL team’s lease beyond that date."

http://www.canada.com/sports/Braley+hurry+sell/9683521/story.html

[T-Bone]

It looks like there is still a slim chance that the Argonauts will Not end up at BMO Field:
Thank you for posting the same article in yet a third thread. It has been said in other threads, Braley building a facility for the Argos with a majority of his own money was most likely a bluff. All Braley has to do to get the Argos in to BMO Field is sign an agreement for most likely 20 years at $0. I would say the chances are extremely slim Braley will turn that deal down and build another facility.

[ArgoGabe22]

I heard Braley has a very good poker face.

[Rids]

For the cost of seat licenses that isn't out of the ordinary. The question of if folks in Toronto would pay that amount though is a good one. I'm hesitant that any Canadian city would pay those amounts for a Personal Seat License.

[ArgoRavi]

For the cost of seat licenses that isn't out of the ordinary. The question of if folks in Toronto would pay that amount though is a good one. I'm hesitant that any Canadian city would pay those amounts for a Personal Seat License.

I agree. Pro sports isn't ingrained in the Canadian consciousness as it is in the U.S. which makes a big difference in regards to willingness to pay exorbitant amounts for seat licenses.

[Neely2005]

It looks like there is still a slim chance that the Argonauts will Not end up at BMO Field:

"Braley is open to negotiating a move to a renovated BMO Field, owned by the city of Toronto and operated by Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment. President and CEO Tim Leiweke has floated the idea of an expanded 30,000-seat stadium with a hybrid grass/turf field to accommodate both Toronto FC and the Argos.


Still, Braley said he’s also had discussions with the suburban cities of Mississauga and Vaughan as prospective landing spots for the Argos, who will be orphaned after the 2017 season. Rogers Centre intends to install a grass field for the baseball Blue Jays and won’t extend the CFL team’s lease beyond that date."

http://www.canada.com/sports/Braley+hurry+sell/9683521/story.html

Markham & Vaughan interested in being home to York U. campus:

http://www.yorkregion.com/news-story/4443146-markham-interested-in-being-home-to-york-u-campus/


This is another possibility to get some government funding.

[AngeloV]

Markham & Vaughan interested in being home to York U. campus:

http://www.yorkregion.com/news-story/4443146-markham-interested-in-being-home-to-york-u-campus/


This is another possibility to get some government funding.

Why do you always insist on double posting the same thing in 2 different threads?

[T-Bone]

Why do you always insist on double posting the same thing in 2 different threads?
Don't you know the more threads you post the same thing in the more true/real it becomes.

[bluto]

those poor, poor dead horses...

why does Neelytroll hate them so?

[Wobbler]

No name calling please, bluto.

[bluto]

No name calling please, bluto.

beating the same dead horse in multiple threads and re-reaising the same points ad nauseum isn't trolling? i beg your pardon.

[Neely2005]

After all this, it would not surprise me if this MLSE so called sure thing deal with BMO fell apart and we wind up with a stadium in Markham.
Let's hope so.

Markham would be good but I still think that Vaughan makes more sense because of the TTC Subway extension.

[paulwoods13]

Markham would be good but I still think that Vaughan makes more sense because of the TTC Subway extension.

And it makes no sense without $150-200M to build a new stadium.

[ArgoGabe22]

Markham would be good but I still think that Vaughan makes more sense because of the TTC Subway extension.

Be honest, do you really want the Argos to have their own stadium anywhere or do you just want the stadium right in your backyard? To me it sounds like the latter.

[Neely2005]

Be honest, do you really want the Argos to have their own stadium anywhere or do you just want the stadium right in your backyard? To me it sounds like the latter.

I live in North York so it's not going to be in my backyard no matter where it is.

If the Argonauts can get their own stadium where they control all of the revenue and dates wouldn't that be better for the team?

[paulwoods13]

I live in North York so it's not going to be in my backyard no matter where it is.

If the Argonauts can get their own stadium where they control all of the revenue and dates wouldn't that be better for the team?

If ifs and buts were candies and nuts, we'd all have a happy Christmas.

Let me state for the record, I would LOVE the Argos to own their own stadium. But let me also state that at a cost of $150-200M, it is not going to happen. Period. Why are some folks still holding out hope it will?

[rdavies]

Let me state for the record, I would LOVE the Argos to own their own stadium. But let me also state that at a cost of $150-200M, it is not going to happen. Period. Why are some folks still holding out hope it will?Do I think it will happen, no. But I'm not going to categorically say it won't or can't. Ottawa, Winnipeg and Saskatchewan were able to create deals and I think Mr Braley is well connected (publicly and privately) enough to create a deal if he so chose. I think if he was younger and had more confidence in the future of this market that he likely would. But as you say ifs and buts.

Here's where his head is at "The Burlington resident and Ontario senator told about 60 people during a fundraising event Sept. 18 at the Lakeview on Van Wagner’s Beach Road, said if Confederation wasn’t available, then the next option should have been to drop it on 100 acres of land, and then add commercial and retail building, including a hotel, to support it. He said it would have benefited the city’s business community, and for Hamilton’s economic development sector.
“We should have developed the land with retail, and hotels” (that other municipalities have done, including Ottawa), said Braley."

Personally, I can't see him planning a standalone stadium for the Argos but there are other options and I think they should be explored so when BMO sharing goes bust, they'll have some options.

[paulwoods13]

Do I think it will happen, no. But I'm not going to categorically say it won't or can't. Ottawa, Winnipeg and Saskatchewan were able to create deals and I think Mr Braley is well connected (publicly and privately) enough to create a deal if he so chose. I think if he was younger and had more confidence in the future of this market that he likely would. But as you say ifs and buts.

Here's where his head is at "The Burlington resident and Ontario senator told about 60 people during a fundraising event Sept. 18 at the Lakeview on Van Wagner’s Beach Road, said if Confederation wasn’t available, then the next option should have been to drop it on 100 acres of land, and then add commercial and retail building, including a hotel, to support it. He said it would have benefited the city’s business community, and for Hamilton’s economic development sector.
“We should have developed the land with retail, and hotels” (that other municipalities have done, including Ottawa), said Braley."

Personally, I can't see him planning a standalone stadium for the Argos but there are other options and I think they should be explored so when BMO sharing goes bust, they'll have some options.

So you're not going to categorically say a new stadium won't happen, but you are going to categorically say the BMO sharing will go bust?

[rdavies]

So you think the stadium sharing will be all sunshine and roses.