Ricky Choked in Second Half -- Time To Go With Youth

[Rich]

The mark of a truly great QB is the ability to deliver with the game on the line. The pressure got to Ricky yesterday -- and he folded. There was a pass yesterday in the 3rd quarter he had both Durie and Inman out in the flat and he threw it in between them -- a choke pass if I ever saw one. And everybody saw that last drive -- three off-target passes in a row. Has Ricky ever pulled a game out for us in the last minute?

Meanwhile we have a QB on the roster who pulled off last-minute comebacks on several occasions this season. Ricky put up some great numbers this year, but it's about more than numbers. Let's face it, Ricky is not going to play any better next season. He will be another year slower, and another year more vulnerable to injury.

Speaking of slow, Burris confirmed yesterday how important in the CFL it is to have a QB who can run for the first down in key situations. Ricky looked like he was wearing snowshoes on the key run -- any other QB in the league would have got that first down.

Teams next year will copy Hamilton's formula for stopping the Ricky offense. You guys are all dreaming if you think he will put up similar numbers next year.

Again, Brett Favre was at the top of his game when the Packers made a calculation that the team would be better off going with youthful talent at the QB position. It was a highly unpopular decision in Green Bay at the time, but it turned out to be the right one.

I think we are doomed to more years in the wilderness if we let Collaros go. It will be the slow sad decline of a once-great QB.

[ArgoGabe22]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ekQ_Ja02gTY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Will]

Oh he is dead serious.

The Argos had the ball for 6 minutes in the second half. 6 minutes! The whole team played like crap in the half.

[1argoholic]

WOOOOW! I bet you vote for Rob Ford as well. haha. You have to be kidding. Ricky Ray is a Hall Of Famer. Ricky started getting pressure and felt it bigtime. He began tossing balls higher because of that pressure. He wasn't stepping into the passes but leaning back which forces the ball to sail. The O line started allowing pressure to get at Ray. The only thing I don't like about Ray is that if your O line doesn't play 100% all the time then Ricky is more of a sitting duck. he has been known to run a bit but not when he has any sort of leg issues. Funny how Edmonton fans were all over him before he got dealt but I bet they wish they had Ricky now.

[paulwoods13]

A sadly predictable post.

[Neely2005]

Yeah I'm going to have to strongly disagree with the OP.

It would be nice if our O Line could provide some more protection.

[Rich]

Well if you're happy with the way Ricky played in the second half then more power to you.

I will go even further. I think Collaros would have found a way to pull that game out in the last minute because he's one of those rare QB who plays better when the pressure's on. He's proved it time and time again.

[AaronInToronto]

Hmm. I doubt he choked. I think he played injured in the second though

[Rich]

Ricky started getting pressure and felt it bigtime. He began tossing balls higher because of that pressure. He wasn't stepping into the passes but leaning back which forces the ball to sail. The O line started allowing pressure to get at Ray. The only thing I don't like about Ray is that if your O line doesn't play 100% all the time then Ricky is more of a sitting duck. he has been known to run a bit but not when he has any sort of leg issues.

All of this supports my argument. The template has been set as to how to stop the Ray offence.

[matchuk]

the whole f***in team choked in the second half! wasn't just ray's fault...

even going into the 4th quarter, and after no offence in the 3rd, i would NOT have pulled ray for collaros

[AngeloV]

A sadly predictable post.

Yes, I was wondering how long this would take.

[ArgoRavi]

All of this supports my argument. The template has been set as to how to stop the Ray offence.

I don't think that Hamilton did anything that unusual on defence in the second half. The bottom line is that they executed and the Argos did not.

[paulwoods13]

The template: put pressure on the QB. Amazing no one has ever tried that before now.

[294life]

Did Eric Tillman start this thread?

I was reminded of Super Bowl XXV in this one. The only way the cats could win was by controlling the clock for two-thirds of the game. Argos were just 44 yds away from the one-point win. The number on Kackert's back whose run production was sorely missed.

[Rich]

The template: put pressure on the QB. Amazing no one has ever tried that before now.

They also had corners playing up high sealing off the outlet dumps. If you wish to blindly ignore that Hamilton pretty much shut Ray down for 10 out of the last 12 quarters, then go ahead, drink the kool-aid.

[Will]

They did a heck of a job shutting down your boy Collaros in the first game of the home and home.

...and just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they can't think independently (drinking kool-aid)

[ArgoRavi]

They also had corners playing up high sealing off the outlet dumps. If you wish to blindly ignore that Hamilton pretty much shut Ray down for 10 out of the last 12 quarters, then go ahead, drink the kool-aid.

They were able to control Ray for the first two quarters of the Thanksgiving Day game which was Ray's first game back after a long layoff but I would hardly say that they shut Ray out for 10 of the 12 quarters that they played against him. Maybe 4 out of 12 this year but that is even pushing it.

[Argo]

It would have been a very good idea to play Collaros as the second half unfolded miserably for the Argonauts. The change of pace, escapability, and the threat and ability to run with the ball could have upset Hamilton's apple cart.

BTW, do any the Argonauts coaches sufficiently appreciate the value, strategy, and tactics of time of possession? It does not appear that they do.

[ArgoRavi]

It would have been a very good idea to play Collaros as the second half unfolded miserably for the Argonauts. The change of pace, escapability, and the threat and ability to run with the ball could have upset Hamilton's apple cart.

When Collaros came off the bench this year, he struggled (games in Montreal and at home to Calgary come to mind). I suspect that part of the reason for that is that the backup QBs don't get any reps in practice (at least, that is my understanding) but that is a different argument for another day. I just don't think Collaros would have made any difference yesterday given what I saw of him in that situation earlier this year.

[paulwoods13]

They also had corners playing up high sealing off the outlet dumps. If you wish to blindly ignore that Hamilton pretty much shut Ray down for 10 out of the last 12 quarters, then go ahead, drink the kool-aid.

Kool-Aid is yummy!

[1argoholic]

Did Ricky Ray lose the F$%king football in the lights on a certain perfect long bomb TD pass? How the HELL do you lose a football in the lights.? Bring back Bishop talk will start next. I'm pissed!!! Wake the HELL up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[OV Argo]

Funny thing is - I was set to post some sort of a tribute to Ricky Ray - after his play in the first half of this final and based on his play on the entire season - some amazing QB accuracy and decision making with phenomenal passing numbers - off the charts completion %; and can still throw a beautiful touch deep ball (his deep corner for a TD a trademark); and - Ricky Ray used to be a pretty decent scrambling QB for a bigger, pocket style QB - hardly a great classic CFL running QB like a Tracy Ham or Damon Allen or Flutie or Russ Jackson - but would pull off first down or decent gainer runs at opportune times and was one of the best short yardage sneak QBs i ever saw (those duties taken away as he got older - CFL trend and fear of injury(?). I was going to say Ricky Ray had progressed as an all-time great CFL in my mind to getting close to big 3 all-time (IMO - that's easily Jackson, Moon & Flutie - in a 1A class of their own). Changed my mind though.

And - decided not to make that tribute post after the 2nd half yesterday; not because I agree with Rich that Ray could/should be replaced by Collaros or that they should have even went to ZC late in the game; BUT - I was extremely disappointed in Ray (not all his fault for dumb offence or lots of pressure that's for sure) in the 2nd half - missed those throws that Rich pointed out (and Ray said as much in a post-game interview i saw) - inaccuracy under pressure, bad decisions - especially to go deep to Owens on the last posession, and inability to either scramble/run or make some other creative play to get a key first down and keep the ball - most of the 2nd half and - late in a big play-off game when it mattered most ! (And yes - perhaps he was hurt somewhat ?)

SO - RR still a great CFL QB, hope the Argos keep him and he can play for a few more seasons and win another GC, but sadly, and just IMO - DID NOT rise to the occasion in a huge play-off game opportunity, and sort of slipped a notch in my all-time QB ratings.

[ArgoRavi]

Did Ricky Ray lose the F$%king football in the lights on a certain perfect long bomb TD pass? How the HELL do you lose a football in the lights.?

Regarding that play, Chiles said the ball was thrown as if it were supposed to be a corner pattern but he did not think that he was supposed to run a corner pattern so there was some kind of miscommunication there.

[doubleblue]

Regarding that play, Chiles said the ball was thrown as if it were supposed to be a corner pattern but he did not think that he was supposed to run a corner pattern so there was some kind of miscommunication there. That play was right in front me. Childs had a couple of steps on his cover and the ball was thrown perfectly but Childs didn't seem to know where it was. IMO Romby Bryant would have had 6 points on that play. Still puzzled why Bryant wasn't dressed for this game and why Barnes didn't have his number called all game either. They are proven performers.

[argotom]

Ricky did not lose this game, it was our defence plain and simple.

[jerrym]

The mark of a truly great QB is the ability to deliver with the game on the line. The pressure got to Ricky yesterday -- and he folded. There was a pass yesterday in the 3rd quarter he had both Durie and Inman out in the flat and he threw it in between them -- a choke pass if I ever saw one. And everybody saw that last drive -- three off-target passes in a row. Has Ricky ever pulled a game out for us in the last minute?

Meanwhile we have a QB on the roster who pulled off last-minute comebacks on several occasions this season. Ricky put up some great numbers this year, but it's about more than numbers. Let's face it, Ricky is not going to play any better next season. He will be another year slower, and another year more vulnerable to injury.

Speaking of slow, Burris confirmed yesterday how important in the CFL it is to have a QB who can run for the first down in key situations. Ricky looked like he was wearing snowshoes on the key run -- any other QB in the league would have got that first down.

Teams next year will copy Hamilton's formula for stopping the Ricky offense. You guys are all dreaming if you think he will put up similar numbers next year.

Again, Brett Favre was at the top of his game when the Packers made a calculation that the team would be better off going with youthful talent at the QB position. It was a highly unpopular decision in Green Bay at the time, but it turned out to be the right one.

I think we are doomed to more years in the wilderness if we let Collaros go. It will be the slow sad decline of a once-great QB.

Yes let's trade Ray and then we can become just as good the last team that traded him. Here's his record of 'choking' in the biggest game, Grey Cup, which of course means he 'choked' in those seasons semi-finals and finals as well.


The91st Grey Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/91st_Grey_Cup) in Regina, Saskatchewan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regina,_Saskatchewan) (2003) featured the Eskimos against the Alouettes. The Eskimos defeated the Alouettes 34-22, for the team's first Grey Cup in a decade. Ray played exceptionally against Alouettes coach Don Matthews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Matthews)'s renowned blitzing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitz_(American_football)) defense, completing 22 of 32 passes for 301 yards and two touchdowns. ...

Ray started in the 2005 93rd Grey Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/93rd_Grey_Cup), perhaps because of rumours that a trade of Maas to the Hamilton Tiger-Cats had already been arranged. This time, however, Ray seized the opportunity presented to him, throwing for 359 yards and two touchdowns while completing 35 of 45 passes. The Eskimos defeated their old foes the Montréal Alouettes in a thrilling shootout victory, and Ray was the hero as he was named most valuable player. ...

The Argos would ultimately emerge victorious in the 100th Grey Cup held at home, beating Calgary 35-22. Ray would finish the game 18 for 30 for 231 yards 2 TD and 1 INT.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Ray#cite_note-12) The victory was Rays 3rd Grey Cup, matching Anthony Calvillo for the most Grey Cup wins by the current generation of veteran QBs.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Ray

[Rich]

Yes let's trade Ray and then we can become just as good the last team that traded him. Here's his record of 'choking' in the biggest game, Grey Cup, which of course means he 'choked' in those seasons semi-finals and finals as well.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Ray

Well that was 10 years ago Jerry. Times change, as does our ability to withstand the pressure of a situation.

Tom Watson is one of the greatest golfers of all time. At the British Open in 2009 he had a chance to become the oldest winner of a major in history. All he had to do was sink a 4-foot putt on the last hole. He missed. How could anyone not conclude the pressure got to him?

I understand "choke" is a harsh word. Let me replace it with "succumbed to the mental pressure". There's no shame in it. It happens to everybody, and to all athletes, except for the very greatest ones. You'd think the older an athlete gets, the less susceptible he is to pressure, but that's not the case. As the older athlete becomes more aware of his limitations, he may feel the pressure even more.

Ricky Ray is one of the most accurate passers I've ever seen in the CFL, even when he's facing a strong pass rush. Sunday, with the game on the line, he missed several passes that he normally makes 95% of the time. Surely it's not unreasonable to conclude that he succumbed to the mental pressure of the situation.

[jerrym]

Well that was 10 years ago Jerry. Times change, as does our ability to withstand the pressure of a situation.

Ray won the Grey Cup last year and set the all-time passing percentage record this year.

[paulwoods13]

Ricky Ray is one of the most accurate passers I've ever seen in the CFL, even when he's facing a strong pass rush. Sunday, with the game on the line, he missed several passes that he normally makes 95% of the time. Surely it's not unreasonable to conclude that he succumbed to the mental pressure of the situation.

So based on six minutes of actual playing time you have concluded he is no longer worthy of being the Argos' starting QB. And the guy whose most recent performance in a meaningless game against a lousy opponent (probably around six minutes of PT as well, coincidentally) was, erm, lousy, should replace him. Interesting logic.

[mchesher03]

Sadly as others have said I could have seen this coming too.</SPAN>

Something was obviously off but to say collaros would have come in and saved it given his lack of success coming off the bench is wrong. Collaros would have came in and started gunslinging downfield and who knows what would have happened – he throws a lot of ‘50/50’ balls and looks great when his receivers make plays, not so much when they don’t. whoever said that romby Bryant would have had 6 points on the one chiles lost in the lights was spot on, totally agree.</SPAN>

Lots of stuff for the coaches and football operations to look at in the off-season but I’m guessing D-line recruiting (khalif Mitchell is gone, I wish it wasn’t so but it is), RB and DB’s are tops on the list. Also think that unfortunately Marcus Ball will find a bigger payday elsewhere and like we heard Barker say at the town hall before the season, the Argos have a range they are willing to pay guys and if they ask for above and beyond then they can walk (see Ejuaro Kuale)</SPAN>

Final thought – it’s hard to repeat and even get back to the Grey Cup again – was reading an article on TSN and it was mentioned how Montreal had done it for so long and it was somewhat taken for granted – couldn’t agree more. We’ll see what we have next year </SPAN>

[1argoholic]

It's not like we were blown out for crap sakes. Even with not scoring in the second half we were a play or two away.

Ricky Ray won us the cup last year and now you want to ditch him. hahaha. This is crazier than Rob Ford.

[Wobbler]

Argo and Neely, please take your discussion somewhere appropriate.

[ArgoGabe22]

Please refrain from posting political posts in the Double Blue Room. Anything unrelated to the original topic will be deleted.

[AngeloV]

As I've said many times on here, I an really high on ZC. But to say Ray choked is the biggest joke I've heard in a long time. I think you need to give the Cats some credit here. Steinauer made the necessary adjustments at half time that Jones did not. ZC would not have made a difference in a positive way. It likely would have been a worse loss. He wasn't very good against the Cats here in October. There is no evidence to suggest that would have changed.

[Rich]

So based on six minutes of actual playing time you have concluded he is no longer worthy of being the Argos' starting QB. And the guy whose most recent performance in a meaningless game against a lousy opponent (probably around six minutes of PT as well, coincidentally) was, erm, lousy, should replace him. Interesting logic.

Not just six minutes. The most important six minutes of the entire season. And Ricky, sadly, could not deliver. These kinds of flops have a way of festering with a team. A team looks to their leader to pull them through. This flop will linger in the players minds all next year.

It's all about winning, not stats. Bottom line is Collaros led the Argos to three come-from-behind victories this year, and Ricky led us to none.

[Rich]

Collaros would have came in and started gunslinging downfield and who knows what would have happened – he throws a lot of ‘50/50’ balls and looks great when his receivers make plays, not so much when they don’t.

Still that would have given us a 50% better chance of a comeback than Ricky gave us.

Sorry i'm making you all angry with this thread, but i honestly believe the Argos' future is at stake here. Remember that the Green Bay fans were absolutely furious when the Packers gave up on their beloved Favre, but a couple of years later everyone was glad they made the bold move when they did.

[Tau Ceti]

I don't think you're angering people, Rich, it's just that you seem to be a one-man band on this issue so it's a little hard to take seriously. Ray had an absolutely phenomenal season and one bad half in the EF. No sane person would toss him out on that basis. Take any stat you want from the regular season and he comes out better than Collaros (who, it's been mentioned elsewhere, will be leaving Toronto anyway).

[MEEZY]

To echo the sentiments of other posters, I think it's both unfair and inaccurate to blame Sunday's loss on Ray or to suggest that Ray choked. Ray basically carried the team on his back during the first half. He experienced struggles in the second half due to Hamilton adjustments as well as the continual lack of a run game, poor defensive play and questionable coaching decisions. I do concur that Ray's three missed passes in a row to end the game represented poor execution on his part; however, such mistakes from Ray, especially in high-pressure situations, are both uncharacteristic and rare. I would guess that he was banged up from the many hits he suffered throughout the game, pressured by Hamilton's defense or exhausted and frustrated from trying to singlehandedly win the game with little to no support. Counting Sunday's loss, Ray is now 11-5 in playoff appearances, which hardly spells "choker" to me. Throughout his career, Ray has been known as a strong performer in such situations and yesterday represented the exception rather than norm. To suggest that Collaros could have done better is pure speculation.

[Will]

Excellent post MEEZY and welcome to argofans.com

[Midnight Blue]

Here is the question :

Looking at the next three years (or heck, even at the next five years), who would you want to lead our Offense?


A proven Super-Star --- probably the greatest Quarterback in the CFL right now (notwithstanding his one recent, less-than-God-like performance in the EF) --- or a brilliant rookie who has shown a lot of promise, but is still un-tested in the play-offs?





And on a side-note, sometimes a smack back to reality, may delay The Dynasty for another year, but it will be a good lesson for everyone, and they will all come back even hungrier, meaner, and fiercer, to regain the Grey Cup.



Ka' Pla !

[argotom]

Here is the question :

Looking at the next three years (or heck, even at the next five years), who would you want to lead our Offense?


A proven Super-Star --- probably the greatest Quarterback in the CFL right now (notwithstanding his one recent, less-than-God-like performance in the EF) --- or a brilliant rookie who has shown a lot of promise, but is still un-tested in the play-offs?





And on a side-note, sometimes a smack back to reality, may delay The Dynasty for another year, but it will be a good lesson for everyone, and they will all come back even hungrier, meaner, and fiercer, to regain the Grey Cup.



Ka' Pla ! I at least am willing to have a serious discussion of Ricky versus Zach. I am of the opinion there is a much greater up side with the younger Zach based on his age, running skillset, a decent arm and that certain intangible of somehow finding a way to win games.

[Midnight Blue]

I at least am willing to have a serious discussion of Ricky versus Zach. I am of the opinion there is a much greater up side with the younger Zach based on his age, running skillset, a decent arm and that certain intangible of somehow finding a way to win games.



Respectfully, Argotom, I was and am, being quite serious.


What you say about Zach is very true, but Ricky has been there, has the track record, and isn't anywhere near done yet. In fact, Ricky's best years may be, and probably are, still ahead of him.


Ka' Pla !


Which means, Victory !

[argotom]

Respectfully, Argotom, I was and am, being quite serious.


What you say about Zach is very true, but Ricky has been there, has the track record, and isn't anywhere near done yet. In fact, Ricky's best years may be, and probably are, still ahead of him.


Ka' Pla !


Which means, Victory ! MB, that is as they say the $64,000 question. In addition, is RR getting injury prone as he enters the mid 30's? I can't remember the last QB this team has developed and it would be said to trade him away and then he becomes a star in the league. Of course, similarly that is a $64,000 question about Zach.

[Midnight Blue]

MB, that is as they say the $64,000 question. In addition, is RR getting injury prone as he enters the mid 30's? I can't remember the last QB this team has developed and it would be said to trade him away and then he becomes a star in the league. Of course, similarly that is a $64,000 question about Zach.


I wonder about "injury prone"; not regarding RR, but to the term in general....


Is it a matter of luck, genes, conditioning, physical stalwartness?

I don't know the answer.


Would love to keep Zach, and dammit, must admit that all of the "tooth-less" jokes about Ti-Cat fans may have gotten the attention of "Karma", and she has decided to bite us in the bum. Like, for the first time in a while, we finally have a young QB to develop, and the expansion draft falls on the same year. Well at least we won the 100th Grey Cup!

Go Tabbies ! (Hoping to kiss Karma's elegant butt, and somehow keep both Ricky and Zach.)



Ka' Pla !

[Ballstothewall]

The mark of a truly great QB is the ability to deliver with the game on the line. The pressure got to Ricky yesterday -- and he folded. There was a pass yesterday in the 3rd quarter he had both Durie and Inman out in the flat and he threw it in between them -- a choke pass if I ever saw one. And everybody saw that last drive -- three off-target passes in a row. Has Ricky ever pulled a game out for us in the last minute?

Meanwhile we have a QB on the roster who pulled off last-minute comebacks on several occasions this season. Ricky put up some great numbers this year, but it's about more than numbers. Let's face it, Ricky is not going to play any better next season. He will be another year slower, and another year more vulnerable to injury.

Speaking of slow, Burris confirmed yesterday how important in the CFL it is to have a QB who can run for the first down in key situations. Ricky looked like he was wearing snowshoes on the key run -- any other QB in the league would have got that first down.

Teams next year will copy Hamilton's formula for stopping the Ricky offense. You guys are all dreaming if you think he will put up similar numbers next year.

Again, Brett Favre was at the top of his game when the Packers made a calculation that the team would be better off going with youthful talent at the QB position. It was a highly unpopular decision in Green Bay at the time, but it turned out to be the right one.

I think we are doomed to more years in the wilderness if we let Collaros go. It will be the slow sad decline of a once-great QB.

Funny post

[doubleblue]

We all know, I Think, that defenses win Championships. That was our biggest downfall this year. The Argos may have as many CFL newcomers next year on defense as Ottawa. After Laing, Tonya, Gabriel and Yurichuck as Canadians who is a sure thing to bring back. Horton maybe from the imports. The rest are either free agents or will have to earn a spot on the roster IMO.

[paulwoods13]

I've said I before but it needs to be repeated. Zach did not "win" the games he started. The team won. Yes, he played well (full game against B.C., about a quarter each in the other games), but the wins with him at QB were also the defence's best games of the season.

Quarterbacks don't win and lose games by themselves. To credit Zach with winning games, and Ricky with losing Sunday's game, is a complete misstatement of the realities of the ultimate team sport. Quarterbacks are important, sure, but even the best QB in the league can't win a game when he's on the sideline for 80 per cent of the most important half. As it was, Ricky was potentially one completion away from pulling out a win despite that handicap. That he didn't manage to do so is neither a choke nor a festering wound that his teammates won't soon forget. Seriously.

[argotom]

I've said I before but it needs to be repeated. Zach did not "win" the games he started. The team won. Yes, he played well (full game against B.C., about a quarter each in the other games), but the wins with him at QB were also the defence's best games of the season.

Quarterbacks don't win and lose games by themselves. To credit Zach with winning games, and Ricky with losing Sunday's game, is a complete misstatement of the realities of the ultimate team sport. Quarterbacks are important, sure, but even the best QB in the league can't win a game when he's on the sideline for 80 per cent of the most important half. As it was, Ricky was potentially one completion away from pulling out a win despite that handicap. That he didn't manage to do so is neither a choke nor a festering wound that his teammates won't soon forget. Seriously. Absolutely this is the ultimate team sport. However, the QB is the Captain that steers the ship or if you will stirs the drink, the most dominant figure. It's the intangible the kid has in my eyes. Many of the good and great ones have it and absolutely I am not comparing the two because it is way premature, however Zach reminds me of Doug Flutie. Draw it up or make it up as you go along and win baby win. Right now I would not give him up and at the expense of Ricky.

[Argo57]

Ricky Ray
How quickly we forget the 100th Grey Cup!!

[gilthethrill]

Didn't the Argos do something similar with the QB position after the 1991 season?? How did that work?

[argolio]

Didn't the Argos do something similar with the QB position after the 1991 season?? How did that work?Not that well.

But let's play the what if game......

If they decide Collaros is the future, that decision almost certainly has to be made this week. More importantly, they'd have to agree to a contract prior to the expansion draft, which means Collaros and his agent would very likely demand something close to what Ray is making since the Argos would basically be telling them they think Collaros is at least as good as Ray. On top of that, the Argos would have to do this all secretly so they could keep Ray in case things fall through with Collaros.

That's a lot of maneuvering for choosing a guy with half a dozen starts over a sure-fire hall-of-famer playing arguably the best football of his career. It could also backfire into us losing them both.

[ArgoRavi]

Still that would have given us a 50% better chance of a comeback than Ricky gave us.

Sorry i'm making you all angry with this thread, but i honestly believe the Argos' future is at stake here. Remember that the Green Bay fans were absolutely furious when the Packers gave up on their beloved Favre, but a couple of years later everyone was glad they made the bold move when they did.

I have seen this Brett Favre/Aaron Rodgers situation referenced more than once in relation to Ray/Collaros. However, here is a different but relevant example. How about Tom Brady/Matt Cassel? If my memory serves, did Cassel not lead the Patriots to an 11-5 record when Brady missed almost the entire season with a broken leg? I am sure that there were fans in New England who felt that the Pats should let Brady go in favour of Cassel but they did not make that move and it seems to have turned out quite well for them. Cassel had one good year in KC but is now with the Vikings and not even the starter if I am not mistaken.

[flafson]

Ray is like a younger version of Payton Manning, i honestly don't see how you can say that someone else has a bigger upside than him.

[paulwoods13]

I have seen this Brett Favre/Aaron Rodgers situation referenced more than once in relation to Ray/Collaros. However, here is a different but relevant example. How about Tom Brady/Matt Cassel? If my memory serves, did Cassel not lead the Patriots to an 11-5 record when Brady missed almost the entire season with a broken leg? I am sure that there were fans in New England who felt that the Pats should let Brady go in favour of Cassel but they did not make that move and it seems to have turned out quite well for them. Cassel had one good year in KC but is now with the Vikings and not even the starter if I am not mistaken.

Good comparison. Here's another. Calgary thought Burris was washed up and Tate was the future. How has that worked out for them so far?

[Argo]

Good comparison. Here's another. Calgary thought Burris was washed up and Tate was the future. How has that worked out for them so far?

Though not a "gold standard" example, Kevin Glenn's release by the Blue (very) Bombers also comes to mind.

[Argo]

It seems likely that the Argos and Collaros can, and shall, part ways without the team ultimately losing (or even "loosing"... oh, the humanity!) much, or perhaps anything, at the quarterback position.
Collaros is a good young QB, but it seems that the team has more of the same on tap.
We can expect several more years of top-flight QB play from Ray, barring injury.
Is Ray's salary high enough such that it's actually hindering the ability of the team to sign and keep players?

[argos1873]

I actually agree that Ray somewhat "choked" when if counted. But, given the circumstances of the game in the 4th quarter, is there any other QB in the CFL, I would rather have out there than Ray? Nope. I'm a Collaros fan, but he's sort of cooled off since earlier in the year, when many were, including myself, touting him as the next great thing. Ray didn't play to Ray standards in the 2nd half, but credit the TC D for some of that, and the Argo OL for not giving him enough time. And I'll say it again, don't entirely blame the D for the loss. If the offence had their act together, (ie not SO many 2 and outs) the D wouldn't have had to spend so much time on the field. The D of course is not without fault, but I'll say it again, they actually managed to keep a lot more points off the board at key times. Too bad they gave so many yards up before those times. It was a loss, and I bet you if you asked any Argo player they would all agree it was a TOTAL team loss. And that's no bull.

[Argo]

I actually agree that Ray somewhat "choked" when if counted. But, given the circumstances of the game in the 4th quarter, is there any other QB in the CFL, I would rather have out there than Ray? Nope. I'm a Collaros fan, but he's sort of cooled off since earlier in the year, when many were, including myself, touting him as the next great thing. Ray didn't play to Ray standards in the 2nd half, but credit the TC D for some of that, and the Argo OL for not giving him enough time. And I'll say it again, don't entirely blame the D for the loss. If the offence had their act together, (ie not SO many 2 and outs) the D wouldn't have had to spend so much time on the field. The D of course is not without fault, but I'll say it again, they actually managed to keep a lot more points off the board at key times. Too bad they gave so many yards up before those times. It was a loss, and I bet you if you asked any Argo player they would all agree it was a TOTAL team loss. And that's no bull.

A good summary.
Ray's play was essentially flawless this season, up until Q3 of the EF. Argonauts fans have been spoiled as the exceptional became the norm.
The Ti-cat coaches and players do deserve credit for designing and implementing the changes that shut Ray and the Argos offence down and out in the second half of the game.

[paulwoods13]

If the offence had their act together, (ie not SO many 2 and outs) the D wouldn't have had to spend so much time on the field. The D of course is not without fault, but I'll say it again, they actually managed to keep a lot more points off the board at key times. Too bad they gave so many yards up before those times. It was a loss, and I bet you if you asked any Argo player they would all agree it was a TOTAL team loss. And that's no bull.

There's no question it was a total team loss, and that the O had too many two-and-outs in the second half. But the offence had only four possessions in the half, I believe. There have been lots of times when offences went cold and still had possession for more than six out of 30 minutes. Every time Hamilton got the ball, it moved the ball at will and ate up huge chunks of time.

[AngeloV]

There have been lots of times when offences went cold and still had possession for more than six out of 30 minutes. Every time Hamilton got the ball, it moved the ball at will and ate up huge chunks of time.

That is exactly the way I saw it as well.

[ArgoRavi]

As has been mentioned previously, the Argos had a 24-10 lead late in the first half but the Ticats got what amounted to two consecutive possessions - one at the end of the first half and one to start the second - and, boom, the game was tied. After watching the last 19 or 20 minutes again the other night, I now blame the defence a bit more as their inability to get off the field resulted in the Argo offence going cold.

[argos1873]

There's no question it was a total team loss, and that the O had too many two-and-outs in the second half. But the offence had only four possessions in the half, I believe. There have been lots of times when offences went cold and still had possession for more than six out of 30 minutes. Every time Hamilton got the ball, it moved the ball at will and ate up huge chunks of time.

No doubt. I'm only saying that the defense DID come up big when needed to keep points a lot more points off the board. The score does not reflect what could have been, if the D was a complete fail. But you are 100% correct to say they let Hamilton eat way too much of the clock up. BUT, if Toronto puts up 1 or 2 decent drives earlier in the second half that results in a) giving the D a break, b) putting meaningful points on the board, this is a different ball game. I stress more a than b, because b is obvious in any game. But on any good team, a stellar defense backs up a flailing offence, and this did not happen last Sunday.