Argos at BMO Field

[ArgoRedneck]

I got a tip and did some fishing and pretended I knew more than I did with some people on the in and with some really on the in. I' am not going to debate this but it sounds like I atleast will stop guessing. Looks like we will be at BMO field for 2015 season. I also got that the Argos will be on the road for a bit during the start of the season. My guess is that is because of a retro-fit. MLSE will own the Argos. Braley is the problem but the deal will get done.

If am wrong I will host a tailgate where we end up for the ACTIVE current members on this form.

[Invader]

Mr. Braley is rightfully asking $15 million to $20 million for the Argos because that's what CFL franchises were worth. That is probably on the low side considering the new TV contract. With the right operator, the Argos could become the most valuable franchise in the league. The Argos history of losing money will soon be ancient history, especially when you factor in multiple Grey Cups over the next few seasons in Toronto.

[Argocister]

............ Braley is the problem but the deal will get done.

If am wrong I will host a tailgate where we end up for the ACTIVE current members on this form.

It would be interesting to know how Braley is the problem. Do you think he may be requiring the existence of the
Argos in the future in order for the contract to be finalized.... Somehow?
I am very skeptical of MLSE ownership , give a hypothetical situation where in 5 years the Bills owner has passed and they are more than willing to sell the team to MLSE. Of course the Argos are an irritant so could easily be closed down in order to bring the team eventually to TO. A 9 team league down to 8 ..... easy smeazee.

Mmmmm..... 15-20 million. If we all buy enough lotto max tickets we could purchase for 15 and still have 30 for operating expenses ....... Of course we would have to get a stadium location first.

Can we request certain items for the tailgate?

[ArgoGabe22]

Let's start a kickstarter project and raise the $20m ourselves.

[Argocister]

Let's start a kickstarter project and raise the $20m ourselves.

We would need double to run the project.

[Neely2005]

I got a tip and did some fishing and pretended I knew more than I did with some people on the in and with some really on the in. I' am not going to debate this but it sounds like I atleast will stop guessing. Looks like we will be at BMO field for 2015 season. I also got that the Argos will be on the road for a bit during the start of the season. My guess is that is because of a retro-fit. MLSE will own the Argos. Braley is the problem but the deal will get done.

If am wrong I will host a tailgate where we end up for the ACTIVE current members on this form.

I really hope that this is Not true! MLSE sucks and so does BMO Field and it's location.

MLSE will run the Argonauts into the ground just like they've done with all their other sports teams and the Argonauts will be at the bottom of the MLSE pecking order.

Not to mention that MLSE wants an NFL team first and foremost.

[1argoholic]

I would think it would take more time than 2015 to get the place built to better standards. I really hope this is BS. I don't want to be just another team for some HUGE assed corporation for lack of a better word.
You'd think that some person who has grown up in the GTA as a huge Argo fan who's folks used to take him to games as a child made it big and could afford the team. Too bad it wasn't me.

I'll wait to see where the chips fall.

[AngeloV]

I think what you guys are failing to see here is that people aren't (and haven't in the past) been lining up to buy the Argos. I think that $20 million is a ridiculously high number to ask for a team that each of the last 2 owners have not paid a dime to take over. Braley has put money into it, but the fact remains, he took it over from C&S for nothing, just as they took it over from the league for nothing. If there was a bidding war for the team, I can understand the asking price. Unfortunately, there is no evidence to suggest that there is a bidding war or that there is even more than 1 interested party.

[ArgoGabe22]

I think $15M is a more realistic price and is what other teams have sold for recently (Stampeders).

[paulwoods13]

MLSE will run the Argonauts into the ground just like they've done with all their other sports teams and the Argonauts will be at the bottom of the MLSE pecking order.

Not to mention that MLSE wants an NFL team first and foremost.

Obviously you are referring to their on-field performance, because financially the two largest MLSE teams are hugely successful. Leafs are the top-ranked team in valuation by Forbes and make scads of money for the ownership group. While many on here are skeptical of Raptors attendance, I believe they are also a significant positive contributor to MLSE's bottom line. The Leafs and Raptors have not won championships or even playoff rounds in a long time, but that doesn't automatically translate to lack of on-field success for the Argos if they get bought by MLSE. It's way easier to win in an eight-team league than a 30-team league, and the amount the Argos cost to operate would be pocket change for MLSE. Assuming they do in fact want to be part of an NFL team coming to Toronto (and I do assume that), it would be far better for the Argos to be part of the organization, essentially run by MLSE for community goodwill and the recipient of cross-promotion and maybe even mandated ticket sales, than to be on the outside trying to compete with that financial juggernaut.

[AngeloV]

I think $15M is a more realistic price and is what other teams have sold for recently (Stampeders).

Yes, but historically, the Stamps have been purchased for real dollars in the past as well. Sig Gutcshe (sp?) paid for them, then Federik paid for them, then the Forzani Group paid for them, and most recently the Flames organization also paid for them. When money changes hands on every ownership change, then the value has been established. Can't say the same about the Argos.

[Neely2005]

Obviously you are referring to their on-field performance, because financially the two largest MLSE teams are hugely successful. Leafs are the top-ranked team in valuation by Forbes and make scads of money for the ownership group. While many on here are skeptical of Raptors attendance, I believe they are also a significant positive contributor to MLSE's bottom line. The Leafs and Raptors have not won championships or even playoff rounds in a long time, but that doesn't automatically translate to lack of on-field success for the Argos if they get bought by MLSE. It's way easier to win in an eight-team league than a 30-team league, and the amount the Argos cost to operate would be pocket change for MLSE. Assuming they do in fact want to be part of an NFL team coming to Toronto (and I do assume that), it would be far better for the Argos to be part of the organization, essentially run by MLSE for community goodwill and the recipient of cross-promotion and maybe even mandated ticket sales, than to be on the outside trying to compete with that financial juggernaut.

Yes I'm referring to the On Ice / On Field performance of MLSE Teams. The leafs are incredibly successful financially. The rest of the MLSE teams are not.

The leafs require Platinum Season Ticket holders to also buy Platinum Raptors Season Tickets so I wouldn't be at all surprised if they did the same thing with an NFL team.

[ArgoRedneck]

It would be interesting to know how Braley is the problem. Do you think he may be requiring the existence of the
Argos in the future in order for the contract to be finalized.... Somehow?
I am very skeptical of MLSE ownership , give a hypothetical situation where in 5 years the Bills owner has passed and they are more than willing to sell the team to MLSE. Of course the Argos are an irritant so could easily be closed down in order to bring the team eventually to TO. A 9 team league down to 8 ..... easy smeazee.

Mmmmm..... 15-20 million. If we all buy enough lotto max tickets we could purchase for 15 and still have 30 for operating expenses ....... Of course we would have to get a stadium location first.

Can we request certain items for the tailgate?

Don't know what "Braley is the problem" ment was just told he was the problem. And that YES MLSE will be the owners and BMO is the location 2015. Just passing on what I got using a few investigative techniques I have learned.

And yes if I am wrong you will have drink and food choices. Laker or Laker Lite for drinks, and food will also be 2 choices... Eat it or don't eat it. :D

[paulwoods13]

Yes I'm referring to the On Ice / On Field performance of MLSE Teams. The leafs are incredibly successful financially. The rest of the MLSE teams are not.

The leafs require Platinum Season Ticket holders to also buy Platinum Raptors Season Tickets so I wouldn't be at all surprised if they did the same thing with an NFL team.

Or maybe with a CFL team. (If that is in fact true.)

[ArgoRavi]

Don't know what "Braley is the problem" ment was just told he was the problem. And that YES MLSE will be the owners and BMO is the location 2015. Just passing on what I got using a few investigative techniques I have learned.

Media reports said this week that "Braley is the problem" in that he wants $20 million for the Argos which is a figure that MLSE is balking at.

[ArgoRedneck]

Media reports said this week that "Braley is the problem" in that he wants $20 million for the Argos which is a figure that MLSE is balking at.

Ricky Ray is worth a Million but it's the CFL and the Argos, can't justify it or will he get it (Braley that is).

[Invader]

I think what you guys are failing to see here is that people aren't (and haven't in the past) been lining up to buy the Argos. I think that $20 million is a ridiculously high number to ask for a team that each of the last 2 owners have not paid a dime to take over. Braley has put money into it, but the fact remains, he took it over from C&S for nothing, just as they took it over from the league for nothing. If there was a bidding war for the team, I can understand the asking price. Unfortunately, there is no evidence to suggest that there is a bidding war or that there is even more than 1 interested party.
I frankly doubt Mr. Braley didn't pay a dime to take over the Argos. Cynamon has said they paid a couple of million to buy the Argos (which was likely used to pay key creditors). Braley likely called in his Line of Credit he held with C & S. They either had to pay off the loan or turn over the Argos to Braley, which was held as security for the loan. So Braley probably had to eat that loan (i.e. $2.5 million), then pay off outstanding creditors to keep the operation going. So to say they bought the Argos for nothing is likely false. Cynamon was very upset about losing the team and said in a recent article he wouldn't answer the phone if Braley called. It was also reported that S. Shwartz also paid a couple of million to buy the Argos.

The franchise valuation benchmark was set with the Flames purchase of the Stamps. They paid a widely-reported $15 million to increase their ownership stake from 5% to 70%...which puts the Stamps value at $20 million. This is for a club which had turned a consistent $1 million to $3 million profit for about 10 years.

Braley pegged the value of the Lions at $25 million, which had turned similar profits to the Stamps, but were the prime tenant in $800-million retractable dome stadium.

What are the Argos worth? Only what somebody is willing to pay for them. I can almost guarantee MLSE wanted to buy the Argos for nothing (or better yet have Braley give them a $2M LOC for the privilege of MLSE taking over the team) MLSE stated goal was to bring a NFL team to Toronto...and the TFC fan experience must be improved with any move of the Argos to BMO (but that conversation hasn't even started.) So we can see where the Argos would fit into the MLSE hierarchy.

I believe the Argos have been losing $1-3 million over the past few years (not including Grey Cup profits of a reported $10M to $12M), but the organization has been swimming in quicksand. The Rogers/MLSE monopoly had blocked and diminished the Argos chances of regaining a foothold in the market. But with MLSE onside, important doors could be opened, if only a crack, if they chose to do so.

That is the risk and also the reward.

[Neely2005]

Bob McCowan was talking about the Argonauts moving into the BMO Field during the 4 PM hour today. I'll post a Link once it's up.

[Treblecharger1]

anyone have a recap of what was said?

[Neely2005]

anyone have a recap of what was said?

He doesn't think that MLSE will buy the Argonauts and move them into BMO Field.

[bluto]

He doesn't think that MLSE will buy the Argonauts and move them into BMO Field.

you spelled "He is praying fervently that MLSE won't" wrong

[Jarid]

MLSE can want an NFL team all they want but that doesn't mean the other 31 team owners will approve the sale. (If it happens) The NFL doesn't like corporately owned teams (Packers are grandfathered in) The NFL wants a team in LA and even London well before Toronto.

[ArgoRavi]

MLSE can want an NFL team all they want but that doesn't mean the other 31 team owners will approve the sale. (If it happens) The NFL doesn't like corporately owned teams (Packers are grandfathered in) The NFL wants a team in LA and even London well before Toronto.

They would put one in Mexico City before Toronto.

[T-Bone]

I would think it would take more time than 2015
Agreed. I can't see a move happening that fast.


you spelled "He is praying fervently that MLSE won't" wrong
Either way, they will buy or they won't. They do, then BMO Field becomes a much more realistic option. They don't, I highly doubt we will see the Argos there.


I'll wait to see where the chips fall.
Same.

[Ballstothewall]

I got a tip and did some fishing and pretended I knew more than I did with some people on the in and with some really on the in. I' am not going to debate this but it sounds like I atleast will stop guessing. Looks like we will be at BMO field for 2015 season. I also got that the Argos will be on the road for a bit during the start of the season. My guess is that is because of a retro-fit. MLSE will own the Argos. Braley is the problem but the deal will get done.

If am wrong I will host a tailgate where we end up for the ACTIVE current members on this form.

it looks like you are correct. from what i was told, MLSE never thought Braley would have the stones to build a new Home for the Argos. Then they found out how serious Braley was and that it was going to be a muliti purpose stadium, with a bubble for the winter. He was very close to a deal with Markham and or Mississauga. Once MLSE heard this, they approched him. Now Braley wants big bucks, This deal would have been done 3 months ago. MLSE offered up 8 million. Braley came back with 20 Million. This is all about controling football in T.O and stoping Braley from building a stadium. Now from what i hear, Bralley is demanding first rights to buy back the Argos and the option of a small ownership stake if MLSE does attract a NFL team. I think MLSE will own the Argos in 2014 and if they do, we will be playing at a revamp BMO

[1argoholic]

I really hope this is all a bunch of crap. I really don't want MLSE owning the Argonauts. Just another feather in their caps. I doubt they'll really give a crap about the team. I doubt they'd make the stadium into a real little gem of of place that fans would be proud of. Plus do they really want one of their teams fans at war with the other. I really don't need to trip into town for a game to hear TFC protesters treating us like Bomber or Rider fans have in the past. By that I mean total CRAAAP. 91 Grey Cup and 97 will always stick in my mind. Never been treated worse. By the way we didn't just sit back and take the abuse. At this point I could see TFC fans being very pissed if the Argos move in. I haven't heard anything to change my thoughts.

[Downtownfan]

There were actually two questions yesterday on McCown's show about the Argos/CFL (contrary to his statement that he never gets questions about the Argos). He repeated that the Argos "lose money," and that there is no way they go to BMO for less then $40 million in needed renovations. Of course, this seemed much more hopeful than based on facts. He mentioned that he thought they should go somewhere "north." But his overall tone was that the Argos don't matter, and have little hope.

He also talked about how they (I presume him and fellow traveler Brunt) are still "investigating" (I suppose an ATIP request) the money the federal government gave to the Grey Cup in 2012, as though there is something here. It is really is pathetic. He clearly hates Braley.

But I also think he knows something is afoot, but does does not want to make it a story.

Also, today it was announced that Braley has resigned/is resigning from the Senate; who knows what that means to the Argos/Lions....?

[paulwoods13]

News about Braley's resignation from the Senate: http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4251952-hamilton-s-david-braley-resigns-senate-seat/

[Rich]

He wants to devote more of his energies towards not spending any money on a stadium or practice facilities for the Argos.

[bluto]

like some handsome poster said awhile ago:

-this thing is way past the footsie stage. dotting i's and crossing t's now.
-about 3 months ago it was implied that there'd be news within 6 months... looks like an off-season press conference.
-the Missy/Vaughan/Markham gambit was ever just that, a gambit. it (seemingly) has worked since MLSE wouldn't allow their virtual stadium/venue monopoly to be infringed on.
-the we should choose our words carefully from this point onward so as to avoid unnecessary flamewars and hard feelings with what will soon be our co-tenant's supporters. we should not rise to the bait of any (inevitable) trolling especially from covert new posters in threads re-hashing old issues which are best left in the past.

this was never my first choice, but after a time, i realized the financial signs all pointed directly at it. time to think of the positive aspects (and there are many) of having BMO as a home.

if the Senator is playing a bit of hardball, then as long as it doesn't sour the deal, i applaud him for it. MLSE has money, the Argos are poised to be a profitable entity (in light of the new TV deal and especially in a newly revamped stadium and new strategic partners) so i see nothing wrong with asking for a higher valuation for his asset than MLSE's first offer. (and if it's true that he asked for buy-back rights if MLSE bought an NFL team, then you've got to love him still trying to protect the franchise and league!)
so... if Braley bought the team for nothing (or next to it)... and lost between $1M - $3M per year depending on reports... and made between $10M - $12M for the 100th Grey Cup... and will get somewhere between $8M (MLSE's alleged first offer) and $20M (Braley's alleged ask)... then someone actually profited, handsomely no less, on owning God's Own Football Club... suck it McCown! (can't wait to hear him kissing our ass once we are part of Canada's preeminent sporting company)

[Neely2005]

it looks like you are correct. from what i was told, MLSE never thought Braley would have the stones to build a new Home for the Argos. Then they found out how serious Braley was and that it was going to be a muliti purpose stadium, with a bubble for the winter. He was very close to a deal with Markham and or Mississauga. Once MLSE heard this, they approched him. Now Braley wants big bucks, This deal would have been done 3 months ago. MLSE offered up 8 million. Braley came back with 20 Million. This is all about controling football in T.O and stoping Braley from building a stadium. Now from what i hear, Bralley is demanding first rights to buy back the Argos and the option of a small ownership stake if MLSE does attract a NFL team. I think MLSE will own the Argos in 2014 and if they do, we will be playing at a revamp BMO

Markham would work well, Richmond Hill would be better and Vaughan would be the best location if close to 400 & 7.

(IMO)

[Mulder]

like some handsome poster said awhile ago:

-this thing is way past the footsie stage. dotting i's and crossing t's now.
-about 3 months ago it was implied that there'd be news within 6 months... looks like an off-season press conference.
-the Missy/Vaughan/Markham gambit was ever just that, a gambit. it (seemingly) has worked since MLSE wouldn't allow their virtual stadium/venue monopoly to be infringed on.
-the we should choose our words carefully from this point onward so as to avoid unnecessary flamewars and hard feelings with what will soon be our co-tenant's supporters. we should not rise to the bait of any (inevitable) trolling especially from covert new posters in threads re-hashing old issues which are best left in the past.


Point 2 - I also said that the longer we don`t hear anything, the more likely it`ll be BMO.
The trickiest part of renovation will be the south west area. There is already a ramp there and that will have to be totally removed. The next part would be centering the stadium for the bigger field.

Point 4 - There will be lots of flaming going on once something official gets announced. Probably even some of those fans coming here to vent their anger. I suggest we take the high road. If anyone has suggestions on how to deal with them shoot me a PM!

[Neely2005]

Bob McCowan was talking about the Argonauts moving into the BMO Field during the 4 PM hour today. I'll post a Link once it's up.

Here's the Link:

Listen (http://pmd.fan590.com/podcasts/pts/pt_20131202_170006--Prime-Time-Sports---December-2---4pm.mp3) Prime Time Sports - December 2 - 4pm
Monday, 4 pm: Listener calls.




There were actually two questions yesterday on McCown's show about the Argos/CFL (contrary to his statement that he never gets questions about the Argos). He repeated that the Argos "lose money," and that there is no way they go to BMO for less then $40 million in needed renovations. Of course, this seemed much more hopeful than based on facts. He mentioned that he thought they should go somewhere "north." But his overall tone was that the Argos don't matter, and have little hope.

He also talked about how they (I presume him and fellow traveler Brunt) are still "investigating" (I suppose an ATIP request) the money the federal government gave to the Grey Cup in 2012, as though there is something here. It is really is pathetic. He clearly hates Braley.

But I also think he knows something is afoot, but does does not want to make it a story.

Also, today it was announced that Braley has resigned/is resigning from the Senate; who knows what that means to the Argos/Lions....?

Careful now that's not what he said. He said that it had been months since they had gotten an unsolicited phone call about the Argonauts in regards to an On Field / Football question - so not about the business, attendance, stadium... side of things.

[bluto]

Point 4 - There will be lots of flaming going on once something official gets announced. Probably even some of those fans coming here to vent their anger. I suggest we take the high road. If anyone has suggestions on how to deal with them shoot me a PM!

hear hear!

[paulwoods13]

-the we should choose our words carefully from this point onward so as to avoid unnecessary flamewars and hard feelings with what will soon be our co-tenant's supporters. we should not rise to the bait of any (inevitable) trolling especially from covert new posters in threads re-hashing old issues which are best left in the past.


This is not a done deal, and I still prefer to wait for something tangible before talking about our future home, but the suggestion that Argo and TFC supporters should stop hating on each other is a valid one regardless, and becomes even more important if the teams do end up sharing the same facility.

[ArgoRedneck]

This is not a done deal, and I still prefer to wait for something tangible before talking about our future home, but the suggestion that Argo and TFC supporters should stop hating on each other is a valid one regardless, and becomes even more important if the teams do end up sharing the same facility.

Not a DONE deal buts its done. At the stage of where the house is sold on a conditional offer, just trying to agree on the closing date. Like Ricky Ray is not the starter in 2014 but we know he will be. Trust the info past on by others.

[Neely2005]

This is not a done deal, and I still prefer to wait for something tangible before talking about our future home, but the suggestion that Argo and TFC supporters should stop hating on each other is a valid one regardless, and becomes even more important if the teams do end up sharing the same facility.

I agree but IMO not a lot of Argonauts fans hate TFC or their fans. Personally I find soccer incredibly boring but I've never hated TFC or their fans.

[AngeloV]

News about Braley's resignation from the Senate: http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4251952-hamilton-s-david-braley-resigns-senate-seat/

In listening to The replacement for Dave Naylor's show tonight, Simmons and Hayes also said they had heard through the grapevine that he was stepping down from the Senate because he's embarrassed about the recent scandals that have happened there. If that is true, good on him.

[Mulder]

I agree but IMO not a lot of Argonauts fans hate TFC or their fans. Personally I find soccer incredibly boring but I've never hated TFC or their fans.

Many posters here reflect back to a situation a few years ago in which there was a TFC game at 1, and an Argo game at 4 or 7pm? On a Saturday.

One person we all know, at the time had seasons for both teams, and is just loves the Toronto part of any sports team. Went to the TFC game in his Argo gear because he didn't have the time or the space to bring his TFC stuff with him. He was assaulted, beer thrown at him, and forced out of sections by the hooligans there. I know not all TFC fans are like that, But it paints a pretty sad picture of a fanbase that has even posted on public forums their "plans" on what they will do to Argo fans entering "their" stadium should the Argos actually move there

[AngeloV]

He wants to devote more of his energies towards not spending any money on a stadium or practice facilities for the Argos.

You can complain all you want. I will never say a bad thing about Braley regarding what he does for the Argos. There might not be an Argos without him.

[Invader]

For all we know Mr. Braley is using the MLSE interest in the Argos, to leverage a sweeter stadium deal with Markham or Mississauga. He might have resigned his seat to avoid any questions about cronyism, if federal infrastructure money is forthcoming for the stadium project.

Would Argo fans really want BMO as their home field? It kinda makes Hamilton's Tim Horton Field look like a palace by comparison. I think Argo fans might prefer a more first-class stadium experience in the suburbs with 30,000 seats, for example...rather than play at a rickety stadium at CNE?

[bluto]

For all we know Mr. Braley is using the MLSE interest in the Argos, to leverage a sweeter stadium deal with Markham or Mississauga. He might have resigned his seat to avoid any questions about cronyism, if federal infrastructure money is forthcoming for the stadium project.

i had considered that as well when i heard that he was resigning his seat. if gov't dollars are involved in any scenario (BMO or otherwise), this would be the honourable thing to do for optics' sake.



Would Argo fans really want BMO as their home field? It kinda makes Hamilton's Tim Horton Field look like a palace by comparison. I think Argo fans might prefer a more first-class stadium experience in the suburbs with 30,000 seats, for example...rather than play at a rickety stadium at CNE?

i'll wait until i see whatever plans the Powers That Be come up with before i slag them. yes, BMO looks and feels like it's made out of mechano, but there will be significant changes before Canadian Football can play there so witholding pronouncements might be the wiser course...

...and to be frank, Tim Horton's Field is a palace compared to anything we have right now.

[ArgoRavi]

Point 4 - There will be lots of flaming going on once something official gets announced. Probably even some of those fans coming here to vent their anger. I suggest we take the high road. If anyone has suggestions on how to deal with them shoot me a PM!

Regardless of what happens - and I am guessing that the Argos will be moving to BMO under the MLSE banner - there are going to be unhappy people. If they end up in Brampton, Pickering, Mississauga, Vaughn, it does not matter as no move will satisfy everyone. As far as BMO goes, TFC fans will just have to live with it. I am sure that they will end up with a superb soccer stadium so I don't know what they would be complaining about. BMO Field was never "their" stadium.

[jerrym]

like some handsome poster said awhile ago:

-this thing is way past the footsie stage. dotting i's and crossing t's now.
-about 3 months ago it was implied that there'd be news within 6 months... looks like an off-season press conference.
-the Missy/Vaughan/Markham gambit was ever just that, a gambit. it (seemingly) has worked since MLSE wouldn't allow their virtual stadium/venue monopoly to be infringed on.
-the we should choose our words carefully from this point onward so as to avoid unnecessary flamewars and hard feelings with what will soon be our co-tenant's supporters. we should not rise to the bait of any (inevitable) trolling especially from covert new posters in threads re-hashing old issues which are best left in the past.

this was never my first choice, but after a time, i realized the financial signs all pointed directly at it. time to think of the positive aspects (and there are many) of having BMO as a home.

if the Senator is playing a bit of hardball, then as long as it doesn't sour the deal, i applaud him for it. MLSE has money, the Argos are poised to be a profitable entity (in light of the new TV deal and especially in a newly revamped stadium and new strategic partners) so i see nothing wrong with asking for a higher valuation for his asset than MLSE's first offer. (and if it's true that he asked for buy-back rights if MLSE bought an NFL team, then you've got to love him still trying to protect the franchise and league!)
so... if Braley bought the team for nothing (or next to it)... and lost between $1M - $3M per year depending on reports... and made between $10M - $12M for the 100th Grey Cup... and will get somewhere between $8M (MLSE's alleged first offer) and $20M (Braley's alleged ask)... then someone actually profited, handsomely no less, on owning God's Own Football Club... suck it McCown! (can't wait to hear him kissing our ass once we are part of Canada's preeminent sporting company)

I totally agree with your sentiments. Furthermore, I would be very happy to see Braley come out of this with a profit because he saved the Argos and because it would look in the future if the Argos had an owner in the not too distant past who made money on the team, in case they were sold again.

[mac_davy]

I totally agree with your sentiments. Furthermore, I would be very happy to see Braley come out of this with a profit because he saved the Argos and because it would look in the future if the Argos had an owner in the not too distant past who made money on the team, in case they were sold again.

He didn't just save the Argos, he saved the CFL..... Braley deserves a profit and a dam statue in front of any stadium he helps bring about.

[Argocister]

He didn't just save the Argos, he saved the CFL..... Braley deserves a profit and a dam statue in front of any stadium he helps bring about.

Anyone here an artist? Theres an ugly statue in front of Gate 5 at the dome that needs some fixing up..... :D

[Neely2005]

Many posters here reflect back to a situation a few years ago in which there was a TFC game at 1, and an Argo game at 4 or 7pm? On a Saturday.

One person we all know, at the time had seasons for both teams, and is just loves the Toronto part of any sports team. Went to the TFC game in his Argo gear because he didn't have the time or the space to bring his TFC stuff with him. He was assaulted, beer thrown at him, and forced out of sections by the hooligans there. I know not all TFC fans are like that, But it paints a pretty sad picture of a fanbase that has even posted on public forums their "plans" on what they will do to Argo fans entering "their" stadium should the Argos actually move there

That's pathetic, especially since BMO Field isn't even owned by TFC Or MLSE.


For all we know Mr. Braley is using the MLSE interest in the Argos, to leverage a sweeter stadium deal with Markham or Mississauga. He might have resigned his seat to avoid any questions about cronyism, if federal infrastructure money is forthcoming for the stadium project.

Would Argo fans really want BMO as their home field? It kinda makes Hamilton's Tim Horton Field look like a palace by comparison. I think Argo fans might prefer a more first-class stadium experience in the suburbs with 30,000 seats, for example...rather than play at a rickety stadium at CNE?

I'd prefer a new stadium in Richmond Hill, Vaughan or Markham but most fans here in this Poll seem to prefer BMO Field:

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?2346-New-Stadium-Locations

[argolio]

Theres an ugly statue in front of Gate 5 at the dome that needs some fixing up.....That statue needs this type of treatment:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0_1cZHf9A3A/TSNuZYdIJ2I/AAAAAAAAFec/M2NhPStx28s/s1600/Saddam_Statue_-_Firdos_Square-619x472.jpg

[Ballstothewall]

Careful now that's not what he said. He said that it had been months since they had gotten an unsolicited phone call about the Argonauts in regards to an On Field / Football question - so not about the business, attendance, stadium... side of things.
For the last 2 years, McCown has on many occasion said, that he is NOT talking about the Argos or the CFL on his show, he was peeved, that he CFL and the Argos signed a exclusive deal with TSN radio. He goes on and on, saying don't bother bring up the Argos. I called the open line once to talk Argos and the producer laughed and said, I don't think Bob wants to talk about the Argos today and hung up. Then of course after setting the environment for people to feel uncomfortable to phone up and talk about the Argos, he then spouts off, that no one ever wants to talk about the Argos. He is also peeved that his buddies had to sell the team after not getting the revenue sharing deal they wanted. Then on top of that, the new Argo owner did not offer to put Bob on the 100 Grey Cup committee that he has been on for the last 2 Grey cup in T.O. So now that he was not asked to be on the GC committee last year, he is now launching his big investigation about the 10 Million, that the Goverment gave to the GC committee to help celebrate this great Canadian institution on its 100 year. Will Bob also now investigate the 1 million. The Raptors/NBA got to host the NBA all star game in T.O. Everyone should be able to see right through Mr McC own and his personal vendetta

[jerrym]

That statue needs this type of treatment:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0_1cZHf9A3A/TSNuZYdIJ2I/AAAAAAAAFec/M2NhPStx28s/s1600/Saddam_Statue_-_Firdos_Square-619x472.jpg

I can't think of a finer ending for it.

[Argocister]

I can't think of a finer ending for it.

I like that pic too!

I was actually surprised that the Ticat fans hadn't dressed roger up at the East Final . With Ticat paraphenalia of course. :)

[OV Argo]

Many posters here reflect back to a situation a few years ago in which there was a TFC game at 1, and an Argo game at 4 or 7pm? On a Saturday.

One person we all know, at the time had seasons for both teams, and is just loves the Toronto part of any sports team. Went to the TFC game in his Argo gear because he didn't have the time or the space to bring his TFC stuff with him. He was assaulted, beer thrown at him, and forced out of sections by the hooligans there. I know not all TFC fans are like that, But it paints a pretty sad picture of a fanbase that has even posted on public forums their "plans" on what they will do to Argo fans entering "their" stadium should the Argos actually move there


I think it might be kinda fun to go to a TFC game, wearing Argo gear, with a few big Argo fans as company, and stomp the $h*t out of any so called soccer hooligans (read pansies) who would object to Argo fan presence. Sign me up if this venture could be planned. ;o)

[1argoholic]

If I was at a TFC game in Argo gear and got showered in piss beer I'd lose my mind. Security better step in before I got tossed in jail. I bet that the Argo fans that got showed in beer wasn't my buddy Finn who goes to TFC games. No one in their right mind would toss beer at a big mean ball headed Argo dude. I've seen Finn at his best and worst. We did buy him a T shirt one year that read, Caution Does Not Play Well With Others. haha.

This whole scene is why I want no part of BMO. I really hope Braley goes in another direction and stays away from Legoland.

[Rich]

Maybe MLSE could hold a Truth and Reconciliation meeting at BMO so we can all move forward peacefully.

Violence is the refuge of very small men no matter how big they are in physical stature.

[paulwoods13]

Maybe MLSE could hold a Truth and Reconciliation meeting at BMO so we can all move forward peacefully.

Violence is the refuge of very small men no matter how big they are in physical stature.

Amen, brother.

[ArgoRavi]

If I was at a TFC game in Argo gear and got showered in piss beer I'd lose my mind. Security better step in before I got tossed in jail. I bet that the Argo fans that got showed in beer wasn't my buddy Finn who goes to TFC games. No one in their right mind would toss beer at a big mean ball headed Argo dude. I've seen Finn at his best and worst. We did buy him a T shirt one year that read, Caution Does Not Play Well With Others. haha.

This whole scene is why I want no part of BMO. I really hope Braley goes in another direction and stays away from Legoland.

If the Argos move to BMO, which seems likely IMO, life will go on. Some of the soccer folk may talk a tough game right now but I am guessing that all will soon be forgotten once they see an improved stadium for their team. Then Argos fans will go to BMO when their team plays and TFC fans will do the same when their team plays and there will be little overlap between the two sets of fans.

[Will]

If I was at a TFC game in Argo gear and got showered in piss beer I'd lose my mind. Security better step in before I got tossed in jail. I bet that the Argo fans that got showed in beer wasn't my buddy Finn who goes to TFC games. No one in their right mind would toss beer at a big mean ball headed Argo dude. I've seen Finn at his best and worst. We did buy him a T shirt one year that read, Caution Does Not Play Well With Others. haha.

This whole scene is why I want no part of BMO. I really hope Braley goes in another direction and stays away from Legoland.

Perhaps rightly so, but there's a difference between a pre-meditated attempt to bait Toronto FC fans as OV Argo describes versus the freedom to wear whatever the heck you want to a sporting event.

[LLB997]

I'd prefer a new stadium in Richmond Hill, Vaughan or Markham but most fans here in this Poll seem to prefer BMO Field:

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?2346-New-Stadium-Locations. Check your math on that poll brother. I count 15 people preferring bmo while 30 people would prefer something else.

[Neely2005]

. Check your math on that poll brother. I count 15 people preferring bmo while 30 people would prefer something else.

Fair enough :-)

I meant that it was the single most popular option. It looks like there must be a fair number of Argonauts fans in York Region as there are a sizable amount of votes for Vaughan, Richmond Hill & Markham.

[T-Bone]

Maybe MLSE could hold a Truth and Reconciliation meeting at BMO so we can all move forward peacefully.
I don't think that is necessary as I don't believe this type of thing is a rampant problem at BMO Field.


Violence is the refuge of very small men no matter how big they are in physical stature.
Agreed. I also agree with argofan87 that self defense and premeditated assault are two very different things. OV Argos post (http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?2436-BMO-2015-season&p=41921&viewfull=1#post41921) is quite stupid and not something to joke about, if it was intended to be a joke.

[OV Argo]

I don't think that is necessary as I don't believe this type of thing is a rampant problem at BMO Field.


Agreed. I also agree with argofan87 that self defense and premeditated assault are two very different things. OV Argos post (http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?2436-BMO-2015-season&p=41921&viewfull=1#post41921) is quite stupid and not something to joke about, if it was intended to be a joke.

Did you notice the wink emoticon thingy at the end of my post? OTOH - if you think it's fine to expect Argo fans to attend a TFC game and get showered with beer or otherwise assaulted and not be able to defend (yep that's what i was on about) themselves, I don't know how to reply. Ever heard any other such incident of one Toronto sports fan group going out of their way to attack another Toronto team fans' ? - Do Blue Jay fans beat up or mock Leaf fans?, or Raptor fans go after Jays fans? IF NO - what does that say - about SOME TFC fans - with the incident where the Argo fan got hassled at a TFC game or the reports from the TFC board that they would go after Argo fans daring to enter their little stadium ? I'll tell you what's no joke pal - and that's letting chickensh*t wannabe tough guys get to act as hooligans and turning a blind eye to it. SO - for instance - was anything done by security or TFC management at the game where the Argo fan got assaulted?; or, were there any consequences over at the TFC forum for those suggesting Argo fans get hassled or attacked for entering a TFC stadium?

[T-Bone]

Did you notice the wink emoticon thingy at the end of my post? OTOH - if you think it's fine to expect Argo fans to attend a TFC game and get showered with beer or otherwise assaulted and not be able to defend (yep that's what i was on about) themselves, I don't know how to reply. Ever heard any other such incident of one Toronto sports fan group going out of their way to attack another Toronto team fans' ? - Do Blue Jay fans beat up or mock Leaf fans?, or Raptor fans go after Jays fans? IF NO - what does that say - about SOME TFC fans - with the incident where the Argo fan got hassled at a TFC game or the reports from the TFC board that they would go after Argo fans daring to enter their little stadium ? I'll tell you what's no joke pal - and that's letting chickensh*t wannabe tough guys get to act as hooligans and turning a blind eye to it. SO - for instance - was anything done by security or TFC management at the game where the Argo fan got assaulted?; or, were there any consequences over at the TFC forum for those suggesting Argo fans get hassled or attacked for entering a TFC stadium?
I never condoned the actions of the TFC fan(s) in the incident mentioned early. It appears you don't understand what is wrong with your original post though and that speaks for itself. Direct your questions to the person that posted about those things not me.

[OV Argo]

I never condoned the actions of the TFC fan(s) in the incident mentioned early. It appears you don't understand what is wrong with your original post though and that speaks for itself. Direct your questions to the person that posted about those things not me.


So why don't you explain to me what was wrong with my original post here in the context of an Argo fan forum? - did you seriously believe it was a call to arms to incite Argo fans to form a vigilante group to get violent with TFC fans? Or maybe you are the supreme pooh-bah who can decide what can be talked about or joked about on such forums?
OTOH - you decline to answer my question about possible consequences for TFC fans who assaulted an Argo fan or their fan forum suggesting actions against Argo fans entering their stadium, and nothing on the question of turning a blind eye to hooligans ??? - that does say something there TFC fan.

[paulwoods13]

Fair enough :-)

I meant that it was the single most popular option. It looks like there must be a fair number of Argonauts fans in York Region as there are a sizable amount of votes for Vaughan, Richmond Hill & Markham.

There were 45 votes in an informal online poll. This is the very definition of unscientific and I would caution against drawing any conclusion broader than it may represent the opinions of the 45 individuals who clicked on one of the options. It sure isn't proof about the number of Argo fans living anywhere.

[T-Bone]

So why don't you explain to me what was wrong with my original post here in the context of an Argo fan forum? - did you seriously believe it was a call to arms to incite Argo fans to form a vigilante group to get violent with TFC fans? Or maybe you are the supreme pooh-bah who can decide what can be talked about or joked about on such forums?
You're free to post whatever you like but I don't think your post was funny or smart in anyway. Reading other people's responses it appears I'm not alone. Regardless you don't like my opinion about your post, that's your problem because I don't care.


OTOH - you decline to answer my question about possible consequences for TFC fans who assaulted an Argo fan or their fan forum suggesting actions against Argo fans entering their stadium, and nothing on the question of turning a blind eye to hooligans ??? - that does say something there TFC fan.
I wasn't witness to the incident mentioned and I don't know about the posts mentioned either, so I don't know what happened. I don't know the details, that is why I told you to direct your questions at the person that posted about those things. Obviously I hope security and moderators dealt with the incidents appropriately. I was only commenting on your post.

[ArgoRedneck]

. Check your math on that poll brother. I count 15 people preferring bmo while 30 people would prefer something else.

A majority goverment is formed with those #'s. What he was saying is correct. The majority wants BMO, I don't but most do.

[Neely2005]

There were 45 votes in an informal online poll. This is the very definition of unscientific and I would caution against drawing any conclusion broader than it may represent the opinions of the 45 individuals who clicked on one of the options. It sure isn't proof about the number of Argo fans living anywhere.

It's general knowledge that the majority of Argonauts fans live in the 905 Area Code. Now whether that's York, Peel or Durham region is another question.

[paulwoods13]

It's general knowledge that the majority of Argonauts fans live in the 905 Area Code. Now whether that's York, Peel or Durham region is another question.

This statement has been repeated online by fans many times; that doesn't make it fact. And the 905 also includes Halton, Hamilton-Wentworth and Niagara Region.

[Tau Ceti]

A majority goverment is formed with those #'s. What he was saying is correct. The majority wants BMO, I don't but most do.

For the record, the word you're looking for is plurality -- the largest single group of votes where no choice has a majority. A plurality of people on this forum seem to prefer BMO amongst the available options.

[argolio]

For the record, the word you're looking for is plurality -- the largest single group of votes where no choice has a majority. A plurality of people on this forum seem to prefer BMO amongst the available options.No, he said majority government. I don't know if winning 33% of the vote has ever led to a majority government in Canada, but the Ontario NDP did it with 37.6% in 1990.

[Neely2005]

This statement has been repeated online by fans many times; that doesn't make it fact. And the 905 also includes Halton, Hamilton-Wentworth and Niagara Region.

It's been repeated in the media numerous times by numerous different sources too. Yes that's true too but I would think that people from Hamilton Wentworth and Niagara would be more likely to be Ticats fans.

[ArgoZ]

It's been repeated in the media numerous times by numerous different sources too. Yes that's true too but I would think that people from Hamilton Wentworth and Niagara would be more likely to be Ticats fans.

Except long time Argo fans Ravi and ArgoZ.

[paulwoods13]

It's been repeated in the media numerous times by numerous different sources too. Yes that's true too but I would think that people from Hamilton Wentworth and Niagara would be more likely to be Ticats fans.

I'd love to see the statement attributed to someone connected to the team, who would actually know the demographics of their subscribers (who don't, I would hazard a guess, represent the majority of those who attend games).

Even if we discount H-W and Niagara as hotbeds of Argo fandom, as I've said seemingly hundreds of times what is commonly thought of as "the 905" -- the suburban region stretching from Burlington/Oakville/Milton in the west through the northern burbs to Oshawa/Whitby/Pickering in the east -- is a massive tract of land. Even if the majority of Argo fans do actually live within that tract of land, it is not a single, interconnected community in any sense. It is folly, IMO, to think that the majority of Argo fans in the 905 would want to see the stadium "somewhere" in the 905 just because they themselves live in the 905.

[Argo57]

I'd love to see the statement attributed to someone connected to the team, who would actually know the demographics of their subscribers (who don't, I would hazard a guess, represent the majority of those who attend games).

Even if we discount H-W and Niagara as hotbeds of Argo fandom, as I've said seemingly hundreds of times what is commonly thought of as "the 905" -- the suburban region stretching from Burlington/Oakville/Milton in the west through the northern burbs to Oshawa/Whitby/Pickering in the east -- is a massive tract of land. Even if the majority of Argo fans do actually live within that tract of land, it is not a single, interconnected community in any sense. It is folly, IMO, to think that the majority of Argo fans in the 905 would want to see the stadium "somewhere" in the 905 just because they themselves live in the 905.

I'm with you there Paul, I live in the Oakville, Burlington area and actually prefer the team stay in the downtown Toronto area, in fact when I take the Go Train into Toronto there are many fans in the Burlington, Oakville area that go to TO. Surely the team must know their fan demographic and will govern themselves accordingly.

[ArgoGabe22]

It is folly, IMO, to think that the majority of Argo fans in the 905 would want to see the stadium "somewhere" in the 905 just because they themselves live in the 905.

I agree. I think this is why the stadium needs to be in or around downtown.

[AngeloV]

I'm with you there Paul, I live in the Oakville, Burlington area and actually prefer the team stay in the downtown Toronto area, in fact when I take the Go Train into Toronto there are many fans in the Burlington, Oakville area that go to TO. Surely the team must know their fan demographic and will govern themselves accordingly.

I agree with both you and Paul. I live in the Markham part of Thornhill which is close to Vaughan, Richmond Hill and main Markham. All would be easier places for me to get to rather than downtown, but I realize it isn't about me. The stadium needs to be in Toronto's city limits, and preferably somewhere close to downtown.

[argonaut11xx]

.....He was assaulted, beer thrown at him, and forced out of sections by the hooligans there. I know not all TFC fans are like that, But it paints a pretty sad picture of a fanbase that has even posted on public forums their "plans" on what they will do to Argo fans entering "their" stadium should the Argos actually move there

I dont think us Argofans would have much of a problem if we were accosted by a bunch of soccer fans.....it would play out like this im sure...

"Argofan throws a punch, TFC fan throws a yellow card, Argofans knocks out TFC fan, TFC fan throws a red card as he falls to the pavement...repeat."

(oh and nobody in double blue gets invited for Tea and Scones after the game)

hehehe:p

[1argoholic]

Hey argonaut11xx I think it would go more like this. Drunk Argo Fan throws an amazing punch but misses wildly, TFC fan falls like he's been shot by a high powered rifle and rolls around crying holding his leg. haha.

[Deerkeeper]

Hey argonaut11xx I think it would go more like this. Drunk Argo Fan throws an amazing punch but misses wildly, TFC fan falls like he's been shot by a high powered rifle and rolls around crying holding his leg. haha.Not quite right. Argo fan just glances in his direction, then he falls down as if he were shot, rolling around crying and holding his leg until someone come out and washes his face with a wet sponge, at which time he is miraculously cured.

[AngeloV]

That is one magical sponge. ;)

[1argoholic]

As I sat watching sports lowlights this morning I'll say once again that I DON"T WANT MLSE ANY WHERE NEAR THE ARGONAUTS! Everything they touch turns to SHITE. The Raptors sit and spin their wheels year in and year out. They just had a huge trade, I'm sure there ready to roll now. haha. The Leafs are the Leafs, going nowhere yet again. TFC has done squat since day one. The Marlies are just there.

[T-Bone]

That is one magical sponge. ;)
To clarify, it's magic spray:

385

386

[AngeloV]

As I sat watching sports lowlights this morning I'll say once again that I DON"T WANT MLSE ANY WHERE NEAR THE ARGONAUTS! Everything they touch turns to SHITE. The Raptors sit and spin their wheels year in and year out. They just had a huge trade, I'm sure there ready to roll now. haha. The Leafs are the Leafs, going nowhere yet again. TFC has done squat since day one. The Marlies are just there.

So you would prefer nobody stepping up to buy the team? We all know Braley isn't going to own the team much longer. And to be honest, even though the Argos have won 6 GC's in the last 31 season's, they too have had quite a few embarrassing stinky seasons over that span. IMO the reason has been lack of stable ownership. I think MLSE would change that.

[LLB997]

So you would prefer nobody stepping up to buy the team? We all know Braley isn't going to own the team much longer. And to be honest, even though the Argos have won 6 GC's in the last 31 season's, they too have had quite a few embarrassing stinky seasons over that span. IMO the reason has been lack of stable ownership. I think MLSE would change that.. Way to value your fave team. So your mentality is that if Mlse does not buy them then nobody would waste a penny on them? I have read there are interested parties so I would hope there is a competitive bid to own an operate them with a prosperous future ahead as opposed to getting swallowed by an entity who clearly cares less about winning and cares only about lining their pockets at the fans expense. No thanks. I could honestly see some longtime Argo fans bail on the team if Mlse owned them and I have to say I would not call them a fake fan for doing so and would understand their motivation for doing so on principle reasons. Some people are just wired that way.

[1argoholic]

If MLSE is their only hope than that's the way it has to be but right now I'm not happy with that. At least The Argos win championships. The Leafs haven't won since the original six. I don't see it happening anytime soon soon either. If MLSE does buy the team and fix the stadium up to sweet standards and keep their noses out of day to day operations than it could be ok.

[AngeloV]

. Way to value your fave team. So your mentality is that if Mlse does not buy them then nobody would waste a penny on them? I have read there are interested parties so I would hope there is a competitive bid to own an operate them with a prosperous future ahead as opposed to getting swallowed by an entity who clearly cares less about winning and cares only about lining their pockets at the fans expense. No thanks. I could honestly see some longtime Argo fans bail on the team if Mlse owned them and I have to say I would not call them a fake fan for doing so and would understand their motivation for doing so on principle reasons. Some people are just wired that way.

This has nothing to do with me putting a value on them. Recent history proves that people haven't exactly been beating the doors down to buy them, and the League and David Braley (even when C and S owned them) have basically been paying the Bills for them. As far as your reading that there are several other candidates out there, I hope you are right. But at the same time, if Braley wants to get full value for them, he has to get these rumours out there. Doesn't necessarily mean it's true.


If MLSE is their only hope than that's the way it has to be but right now I'm not happy with that. At least The Argos win championships. The Leafs haven't won since the original six. I don't see it happening anytime soon soon either. If MLSE does buy the team and fix the stadium up to sweet standards and keep their noses out of day to day operations than it could be ok.

That is the same way I feel. I just want the Argos to be healthy financially going forward. And yes, I too would be worried about the likes of Liewikie (sp?) putting his hands on the team. One only has to look at the lack of stability regarding from office comings and goings of their soccer team to worry about how the Argos would be run. The difference I hope is that they should realize that the Argos at least have competent people running them, as unlike the soccer team, they are not starting from scratch.

[shayman]

Interesting to see that wealthy NFL teams have trouble with new stadiums too. The 49ers are moving to the new "Levi's Stadium" next season in Santa Clara, but they've realized that due to parking problems, they won't be able to host weekday games. Weekends only. No "Monday Night Football" in the new place.

Lack of parking will block in 49ers on weeknight games (http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/Lack-of-parking-will-block-in-49ers-on-weeknight-5047223.php
)

[Rich]

If MLSE does buy the team and fix the stadium up to sweet standards and keep their noses out of day to day operations than it could be ok.

I want MLSE to stick their noses into building a training facility that's worthy of a professional sports franchise.

I want them to stick their noses into advertising and cross-marketing this team like its never been marketed before.

I want them to stick their noses into creating and selling Argos merchandise so that great Argo swag is available everywhere.

I want them to stick their noses into raising the media profile of the franchise among all local media outlets and local media personalities.

I've had enough of amateur hobbyist ownership of this club. It's 2013, it's finally time for professional sports management for the Argonauts.

[AaronInToronto]

Rich, does that also mean that you want them to stick their nose, or hands, into your wallet? I can absolutely guarantee that season ticket rates will jump by 30% or more the first season those greedy arses get their hands on the Argos. all of what you mentioned can be accomplished without MLSE. It simply takes leadership and an astute marketing team. You can have a great marketing program with little money. I've done it, and watched some low-cost programs flourish, and glitz and glams ones fail miesearbly. MLSE always tries to buy success. That won't necessarily work with the Argos.

[paulwoods13]

Rich, does that also mean that you want them to stick their nose, or hands, into your wallet? I can absolutely guarantee that season ticket rates will jump by 30% or more the first season those greedy arses get their hands on the Argos. all of what you mentioned can be accomplished without MLSE. It simply takes leadership and an astute marketing team. You can have a great marketing program with little money. I've done it, and watched some low-cost programs flourish, and glitz and glams ones fail miesearbly. MLSE always tries to buy success. That won't necessarily work with the Argos.

I don't believe there is one chance in a million that MLSE will raise prices by 30% or more the first season they own the club. This is a team struggling to establish a firm foothold in a crowded market. MLSE knows how to do one thing well, and that's make money. Alienating the already-too-small fan base of the Argos with a massive price increase at the outset would not be part of any sensible business strategy -- and say what you want about MLSE's on-field success, no one has ever accused them of implementing dumb business strategies. It's certainly possible -- even likely -- that prices will go up as the value of the club increases and the reduced number of tickets available in the new facility comes into play, but 30%? The first year? I say not a chance.

As for how easy it is to market a team, the only things required being "leadership and an astute marketing team," I say if it were that easy, you'd think it might have been done sometime between the end of the Bill Hodgson regime in 1979 and now. I don't know what programs you've been involved with, Aaron, but I'd hazard a guess they did not involve a sports franchise team that is surrounded by massively larger sports franchises and does not control its "home" stadium or the dates it gets assigned to play "home" games, among other obstacles.

[Neely2005]

I want MLSE to stick their noses into building a training facility that's worthy of a professional sports franchise.

I want them to stick their noses into advertising and cross-marketing this team like its never been marketed before.

I want them to stick their noses into creating and selling Argos merchandise so that great Argo swag is available everywhere.

I want them to stick their noses into raising the media profile of the franchise among all local media outlets and local media personalities.

I've had enough of amateur hobbyist ownership of this club. It's 2013, it's finally time for professional sports management for the Argonauts.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Along with significant price increases.

[AngeloV]

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Along with significant price increases.

As Paul said, I don't think any increases will be significant. Perhaps more in line with what the rest of the league charges though. Argos prices are low compare to the rest of the league because there are always plenty of tickets available. If the cost of having sellouts means increased prices, then so be it. At least the team will be healthy.

[ArgoGabe22]

As Paul said, I don't think any increases will be significant. Perhaps more in line with what the rest of the league charges though. Argos prices are low compare to the rest of the league because there are always plenty of tickets available. If the cost of having sellouts means increased prices, then so be it. At least the team will be healthy.

I believe prices will be going up next season anyways, without MLSE. Reason being exactly what you said Angelo. Now that the Argos are more successful, they feel they can charge the same prices as other teams.

[T-Bone]

I don't believe there is one chance in a million that MLSE will raise prices by 30% or more the first season they own the club. This is a team struggling to establish a firm foothold in a crowded market. MLSE knows how to do one thing well, and that's make money. Alienating the already-too-small fan base of the Argos with a massive price increase at the outset would not be part of any sensible business strategy -- and say what you want about MLSE's on-field success, no one has ever accused them of implementing dumb business strategies. It's certainly possible -- even likely -- that prices will go up as the value of the club increases and the reduced number of tickets available in the new facility comes into play, but 30%? The first year? I say not a chance.
I agree with you 100% here. I highly doubt MLSE would increase prices very much the first year. I would guess they would keep them relatively the same to what the prices are from when they take over, if they take over. Prices for TFC have decreased for obvious reasons.


As for how easy it is to market a team, the only things required being "leadership and an astute marketing team," I say if it were that easy, you'd think it might have been done sometime between the end of the Bill Hodgson regime in 1979 and now. I don't know what programs you've been involved with, Aaron, but I'd hazard a guess they did not involve a sports franchise team that is surrounded by massively larger sports franchises and does not control its "home" stadium or the dates it gets assigned to play "home" games, among other obstacles.
I don't know what is up with the Argos marketing department. I can't recall seeing much marketing this year outside of events the teams does like sending cheerleaders to things and the team had a booth at the Sports Expo part of Fan Expo where they were selling tickets. How much would it cost them to put posters on the transit system a few weeks before the home opener or exhibition game with a season schedule on it and leave them up for the season?

[paulwoods13]

I don't know what is up with the Argos marketing department. I can't recall seeing much marketing this year outside of events the teams does like sending cheerleaders to things and the team had a booth at the Sports Expo part of Fan Expo where they were selling tickets. How much would it cost them to put posters on the transit system a few weeks before the home opener or exhibition game with a season schedule on it and leave them up for the season?


As I've written here before, the Argos placed tons of ads in the Toronto Sun and on TSN Radio all season, and they are now running "buy season's tickets" ads in both places. They also did at least one TV commercial that ran locally. It seems to me that targeting hard-core sports fans (many of whom read the Sun and listen to sports radio) makes more sense than throwing up ads on subways and the like. I'm no marketing expert but I think many who are would advocate targeting your spending where it will do the most good.

[T-Bone]

As I've written here before, the Argos placed tons of ads in the Toronto Sun and on TSN Radio all season, and they are now running "buy season's tickets" ads in both places. They also did at least one TV commercial that ran locally. It seems to me that targeting hard-core sports fans (many of whom read the Sun and listen to sports radio) makes more sense than throwing up ads on subways and the like. I'm no marketing expert but I think many who are would advocate targeting your spending where it will do the most good.
Ok. I guess the question is "How much good are those ads doing?" then. I don't think the TSN ads come out of the Argos advertising budget either. I would think that is TSN promoting the product to promote themselves as well as the TV ad and the few Argo/TSN posters I saw.

[paulwoods13]

Ok. I guess the question is "How much good are those ads doing?" then. I don't think the TSN ads come out of the Argos advertising budget either. I would think that is TSN promoting the product to promote themselves as well as the TV ad and the few Argo/TSN posters I saw.

The radio ads are very explicit -- "we want you to buy season's tickets." They don't promote TSN TV or radio, they promote ticket sales. No question there is cross-brand value in them, but I doubt very much that TSN Radio donates the airtime for these ads, and I can pretty well guarantee that the Sun doesn't give its ad space away. If the Argos get, say, a cut rate from TSN Radio because it owns radio rights to the team, that just means the team's bottom line will be slightly better than it would have been at full rate (but would still, I think we'd all agree, show a net loss on operations).

[Argo57]

I don't believe there is one chance in a million that MLSE will raise prices by 30% or more the first season they own the club. This is a team struggling to establish a firm foothold in a crowded market. MLSE knows how to do one thing well, and that's make money. Alienating the already-too-small fan base of the Argos with a massive price increase at the outset would not be part of any sensible business strategy -- and say what you want about MLSE's on-field success, no one has ever accused them of implementing dumb business strategies. It's certainly possible -- even likely -- that prices will go up as the value of the club increases and the reduced number of tickets available in the new facility comes into play, but 30%? The first year? I say not a chance.

As for how easy it is to market a team, the only things required being "leadership and an astute marketing team," I say if it were that easy, you'd think it might have been done sometime between the end of the Bill Hodgson regime in 1979 and now. I don't know what programs you've been involved with, Aaron, but I'd hazard a guess they did not involve a sports franchise team that is surrounded by massively larger sports franchises and does not control its "home" stadium or the dates it gets assigned to play "home" games, among other obstacles.

Purchase the team, market and merchandise the hell out of the team, create demand and increase brand recognition then they can look at incremental price increases, if that's the trade off for a once again thriving and relevant Argonaut franchise then so be it.

[OV Argo]

Rich, does that also mean that you want them to stick their nose, or hands, into your wallet? I can absolutely guarantee that season ticket rates will jump by 30% or more the first season those greedy arses get their hands on the Argos. all of what you mentioned can be accomplished without MLSE. It simply takes leadership and an astute marketing team. You can have a great marketing program with little money. I've done it, and watched some low-cost programs flourish, and glitz and glams ones fail miesearbly. MLSE always tries to buy success. That won't necessarily work with the Argos.

NO to MLSE; and what you said about leadership and marketing from another possible ownership group - but none of those out there so it goes to MLSE by default? - and the fate of the Argos in those clowns' hands?

Does Braley really expect to be able to extort, er, get huge bucks for the Argos? - did he make some decent coin on the GC last year? And now he expects (i don't know, just surmising) to be able to sell the Argos for million$ ?

Look at the new ownership group in Ottawa - local guys with yes lots of money, but also some running a sports team smarts on board (Hunt), and NOT a huge corporate entity that's JUST about bottom line. No rich guys in TO who are big football or Canadian sport fans who could band together (and possibly enlist a part community ownership model) to buy the Argos and run them wisely? MLSE to the resucue i guess.

[Tau Ceti]

The radio ads are very explicit -- "we want you to buy season's tickets." They don't promote TSN TV or radio, they promote ticket sales. No question there is cross-brand value in them, but I doubt very much that TSN Radio donates the airtime for these ads, and I can pretty well guarantee that the Sun doesn't give its ad space away. If the Argos get, say, a cut rate from TSN Radio because it owns radio rights to the team, that just means the team's bottom line will be slightly better than it would have been at full rate (but would still, I think we'd all agree, show a net loss on operations).

I find what little marketing they do to be off-putting because it's just "tickets, tickets, tickets, tickets." It's like they have no other way to promote themselves except by repeatedly insisting you buy tickets. It makes them seem desperate.

[Neely2005]

I believe prices will be going up next season anyways, without MLSE. Reason being exactly what you said Angelo. Now that the Argos are more successful, they feel they can charge the same prices as other teams.

I already renewed my season tickets, no price increase.


I agree with you 100% here. I highly doubt MLSE would increase prices very much the first year. I would guess they would keep them relatively the same to what the prices are from when they take over, if they take over. Prices for TFC have decreased for obvious reasons.


I don't know what is up with the Argos marketing department. I can't recall seeing much marketing this year outside of events the teams does like sending cheerleaders to things and the team had a booth at the Sports Expo part of Fan Expo where they were selling tickets. How much would it cost them to put posters on the transit system a few weeks before the home opener or exhibition game with a season schedule on it and leave them up for the season?

TFC prices have decreased in the past couple of years but in the few years before that they increased.

[T-Bone]

TFC prices have decreased in the past couple of years but in the few years before that they increased.
Right, the price increases and decreases for TFC have been connected to demand and productivity on the field. I think that makes sense. What is your point?

[paulwoods13]

I find what little marketing they do to be off-putting because it's just "tickets, tickets, tickets, tickets." It's like they have no other way to promote themselves except by repeatedly insisting you buy tickets. It makes them seem desperate.

Wow. They get criticized for not doing any marketing, and when it is pointed out they do, they get criticized for doing it wrong. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I really have to disagree that all they push is "tickets, tickets, tickets, tickets." Their sales pitch on radio and in print ads is built on a superhero theme and is quite creative. And even if it wasn't, what are they selling other than tickets? Can anyone name any team in this town that advertises something other than tickets to their games?

[T-Bone]

Wow. They get criticized for not doing any marketing, and when it is pointed out they do, they get criticized for doing it wrong. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I really have to disagree that all they push is "tickets, tickets, tickets, tickets." Their sales pitch on radio and in print ads is built on a superhero theme and is quite creative. And even if it wasn't, what are they selling other than tickets? Can anyone name any team in this town that advertises something other than tickets to their games?
You said that they are trying to sell to the hard-core sports fans well I think the hard-core sports fans have already made up their minds for the most part. They seem to be either in or out in most cases. It seems to me the Argos are having problems with casual fans coming to games more so than hard-core sports fans. That's why I asked how much would it cost to put posters on the transit system with a season schedule on it and leave them up for the season? I can't imagine that would be a huge expense (I mean every minor religious organization seems to be able to afford to put ads up about how "God is King!" etc.) and it would get a lot of exposure.

[ArgoGabe22]

I already renewed my season tickets, no price increase.

That's what the "early bird" renewal is for. Come regular season, I would not be surprised to see general admission increased especially since this has been told to me by someone within the organization.

[Tau Ceti]

Wow. They get criticized for not doing any marketing, and when it is pointed out they do, they get criticized for doing it wrong. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I really have to disagree that all they push is "tickets, tickets, tickets, tickets." Their sales pitch on radio and in print ads is built on a superhero theme and is quite creative. And even if it wasn't, what are they selling other than tickets? Can anyone name any team in this town that advertises something other than tickets to their games?

You're right of course that every sports organization out there is going to put a premium on pushing tickets and I didn't mean to sound so harsh. But there's also highlights, team and league news, player bios, etc. If you visit the websites of the various Toronto sports teams most of them choose not to lead with tickets and I prefer that. Think of that elusive casual fan: you need to immerse them in what the team is to begin with. They're not going to make a ticket purchase in the first few seconds of their first site visit.

[paulwoods13]

You're right of course that every sports organization out there is going to put a premium on pushing tickets and I didn't mean to sound so harsh. But there's also highlights, team and league news, player bios, etc. If you visit the websites of the various Toronto sports teams most of them choose not to lead with tickets and I prefer that. Think of that elusive casual fan: you need to immerse them in what the team is to begin with. They're not going to make a ticket purchase in the first few seconds of their first site visit.

At this time of year, every CFL teams is pushing season's tix. I've gone to all of the team sites lately and the majority of them popped up a sales pitch page before the home page. It's not like that all year. I think the Argo home page is kind of busy and doesn't play up ticket sales as much as it could. Instead it emphasizes player profiles, videos, highlights, etc.


You said that they are trying to sell to the hard-core sports fans well I think the hard-core sports fans have already made up their minds for the most part. They seem to be either in or out in most cases. It seems to me the Argos are having problems with casual fans coming to games more so than hard-core sports fans. That's why I asked how much would it cost to put posters on the transit system with a season schedule on it and leave them up for the season? I can't imagine that would be a huge expense (I mean every minor religious organization seems to be able to afford to put ads up about how "God is King!" etc.) and it would get a lot of exposure.

I don't know that I agree with the proposition that hard-core sports fans have already made up their minds and shouldn't be reached out to, but even if that were true the team has to judge the value and effectiveness as well as the cost of something like subway posters. I have no idea what that would cost or whether it would drive sales. Certainly in the past the team has had subway posters (and also on GO Trains), but has not done so (that I'm aware of) for several years. Maybe that's a missed opportunity, or maybe they concluded it wasn't going to generate the results that spending the money elsewhere would. I'd love to hear from someone with significant expertise in the different avenues for advertising about what is most effective for a team like the Argos.

[T-Bone]

I don't know that I agree with the proposition that hard-core sports fans have already made up their minds and shouldn't be reached out to, but even if that were true the team has to judge the value and effectiveness as well as the cost of something like subway posters. I have no idea what that would cost or whether it would drive sales. Certainly in the past the team has had subway posters (and also on GO Trains), but has not done so (that I'm aware of) for several years. Maybe that's a missed opportunity, or maybe they concluded it wasn't going to generate the results that spending the money elsewhere would. I'd love to hear from someone with significant expertise in the different avenues for advertising about what is most effective for a team like the Argos.
I'm not saying don't advertise to sports fans at all but I think the casual fan is not getting the message. The last year I saw subway posters was when they put out this stupidity:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FxrlbD0IHvs/Thty8FtDRjI/AAAAAAAAClg/1xEMg1LJ3Eo/s400/argos-ad.jpg

Which is maybe why they didn't do it again. It got the wrong attention but if done properly I think transit posters would probably be worth it.

[Mulder]

I'm not saying don't advertise to sports fans at all but I think the casual fan is not getting the message. The last year I saw subway posters was when they put out this stupidity:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FxrlbD0IHvs/Thty8FtDRjI/AAAAAAAAClg/1xEMg1LJ3Eo/s400/argos-ad.jpg

Which is maybe why they didn't do it again. It got the wrong attention but if done properly I think transit posters would probably be worth it.

Sounds like that came from the marketing department of Ricky Foley. He would say something that stupid.

[T-Bone]

Sounds like that came from the marketing department of Ricky Foley. He would say something that stupid.
I would think someone in the marketing department came up with this terrible slogan but either way, how does that make it to print with out somebody saying "Wait a minute. That doesn't sound right?" I remember seeing the poster for the first time and saying to myself "This is not going to go over well." It's crap like this that makes me doubt the competence of the Argos marketing department.

[Invader]

ARGOS
Toronto's Football Team
~ Since 1873 ~

[Neely2005]

Right, the price increases and decreases for TFC have been connected to demand and productivity on the field. I think that makes sense. What is your point?

My point is that they were quick to raise prices and slow to lower them. In fact one of the years that they lowered prices they originally announced a price increase but had to change course due to fan outrage.

[T-Bone]

My point is that they were quick to raise prices and slow to lower them. In fact one of the years that they lowered prices they originally announced a price increase but had to change course due to fan outrage.
I don't remember that and I've had TFC season tickets since day one. What season was that? If I remember correctly prices went up until season 4. Season 5 tickets were frozen at season 4 prices and last season they went down to season 1 prices. This season the price will be the same as last which is season 1 prices.

[shayman]

How much would it cost them to put posters on the transit system a few weeks before the home opener or exhibition game with a season schedule on it and leave them up for the season?

Best I could find - without actually phoning and asking - were TTC ad rates from 2010 -
http://www.blogto.com/city/2010/10/ever_wondered_what_it_costs_to_advertise_on_the_tt c/

Interesting numbers.

Subway station posters in "AA" stations (the busiest) - $2,000 per month. per poster.
Wrapping a single streetcar for a month is $17,000.


it could be different now; these rates are from 2010 when CBS handled the advertising. Today it's handled by Pattison Outdoor. http://www.pattisonoutdoor.com/en/ttc-advertising/media-products

[paulwoods13]

I would think someone in the marketing department came up with this terrible slogan but either way, how does that make it to print with out somebody saying "Wait a minute. That doesn't sound right?" I remember seeing the poster for the first time and saying to myself "This is not going to go over well." It's crap like this that makes me doubt the competence of the Argos marketing department.

That ad was indefensible, but I am guessing their ad strategy is probably not developed in-house. Obviously they have a marketing dept (quite small, I reckon) but marketing people are not necessarily creative. Most creative content such as posters, newspaper ads and other media buys is probably pitched and developed by agencies for whom that is the sole task. For a small company like the Argos, I doubt they would have that type of creative personnel in-house.

[T-Bone]

That ad was indefensible, but I am guessing their ad strategy is probably not developed in-house. Obviously they have a marketing dept (quite small, I reckon) but marketing people are not necessarily creative. Most creative content such as posters, newspaper ads and other media buys is probably pitched and developed by agencies for whom that is the sole task. For a small company like the Argos, I doubt they would have that type of creative personnel in-house.
Ok, that makes it even worse if you ask me. That means no one at the ad agency thought the slogan was bad and someone at the Argos approved it. I doubt the ad agency would print an ad before it was approved by the client.

[paulwoods13]

Ok, that makes it even worse if you ask me. That means no one at the ad agency thought the slogan was bad and someone at the Argos approved it. I doubt the ad agency would print an ad before it was approved by the client.

A mistake is a mistake, regardless of whether it's made in-house or outside. There's no doubt whatsoever that someone with the Argos approved the ad, and that was a mistake. It was also two and a half years ago (at least). We could go back to 2000 or so, when the team floated another brainiac idea of having strippers dancing around outside the SkyDome. One admittedly wrong-headed ad in the past is not cause to condemn the entire marketing strategy.

There's no question we'd all like to see creative, enticing ads for the Argos all over town, but the team is losing boatloads of money and has to spend what it has as wisely as it can. Whether it would be smarter to put schedules in the subway than to buy ads on TSN Radio and the Sun is something a marketing expert might comment on, but the fact is the team is spending money -- and a fair bit of it, I'd say, judging by the volume of radio and print ads over the past two years -- and should not be accused of doing nothing to market itself.

[T-Bone]

A mistake is a mistake, regardless of whether it's made in-house or outside. There's no doubt whatsoever that someone with the Argos approved the ad, and that was a mistake. It was also two and a half years ago (at least). We could go back to 2000 or so, when the team floated another brainiac idea of having strippers dancing around outside the SkyDome. One admittedly wrong-headed ad in the past is not cause to condemn the entire marketing strategy.
To be clear I wasn't condemning the entire marketing strategy based on the one ad. It's just one of the failings I see in the Argos marketing department.


There's no question we'd all like to see creative, enticing ads for the Argos all over town, but the team is losing boatloads of money and has to spend what it has as wisely as it can. Whether it would be smarter to put schedules in the subway than to buy ads on TSN Radio and the Sun is something a marketing expert might comment on, but the fact is the team is spending money -- and a fair bit of it, I'd say, judging by the volume of radio and print ads over the past two years -- and should not be accused of doing nothing to market itself.

So because none of us are marketing experts we shouldn't have opinions on the marketing of the team? By that logic we should shut down this site and probably the rest of the internet then. To be fair though, you're right that the team does seem to be doing a fair bit of marketing. Maybe it just feels like not much because the team is still struggling with attendance a year after winning a championship. That brings me back to the question I asked earlier "How much good are those ads doing?" In my non-expert opinion they're not doing as well as they could be. You mentioned earlier the comic book theme they had going this past year which I did notice but thought was kind of weak. It felt like someone said "What's popular these day? Oh, I know. It's comic book movies. Let's go with a comic book theme." Then they just used existing X-Men nicknames and attached them to players. They couldn't come up with original nicknames? Maybe that would have been cheesier, I don't know. You see some of the stuff coming out of Hamilton which seems to be a lot more current and I assume they have a similar budget to us when it comes to marketing. This may seem cheesy (http://www.ticats.ca/video/index/id/86999) but I think it works with the 20-35 year old demographic that the Argos seem to struggle with. I also find this (http://www.ticats.ca/video/index/id/89317) a lot better than stuff I've seen from the Argos. Anyway I'm no Don Draper and that's just my opinion.

[shayman]

You see some of the stuff coming out of Hamilton which seems to be a lot more current and I assume they have a similar budget to us when it comes to marketing. This may seem cheesy (http://www.ticats.ca/video/index/id/86999) but I think it works with the 20-35 year old demographic that the Argos seem to struggle with. I also find this (http://www.ticats.ca/video/index/id/89317) a lot better than stuff I've seen from the Argos. Anyway I'm no Don Draper and that's just my opinion.

Hamilton has struggled to sell tickets too. Not sure their ads are working any better.

(John Wanamaker, father of modern advertising: "Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half.")

[Rich]

Purchase the team, market and merchandise the hell out of the team, create demand and increase brand recognition then they can look at incremental price increases, if that's the trade off for a once again thriving and relevant Argonaut franchise then so be it.

My thoughts exactly. I live paycheque to paycheque, but I'd be happy to pay a little more if it meant my beloved Argonauts were thriving and relevant.

It's like property taxes. Any increase hurts my wallet, but I'm happy to pay it if it means helping improve the infrastructure of the city I love.




There's no question we'd all like to see creative, enticing ads for the Argos all over town, but the team is losing boatloads of money and has to spend what it has as wisely as it can. Whether it would be smarter to put schedules in the subway than to buy ads on TSN Radio and the Sun is something a marketing expert might comment on, but the fact is the team is spending money -- and a fair bit of it, I'd say, judging by the volume of radio and print ads over the past two years -- and should not be accused of doing nothing to market itself.

Be that as it may, the point is that there's every reason to expect the Argonauts would be promoted much better under the professional management of MLSE.

[Neely2005]

Be that as it may, the point is that there's every reason to expect the Argonauts would be promoted much better under the professional management of MLSE.

Why do you think that?

I've never heard or seen an add for the leafs, Raptors or TFC. I've seen the TV and Radio Networks promote games but nothing from MLSE.

In fact the only MLSE advertising that I've ever seen was a newspaper advertisement for the Marlies.

[T-Bone]

Why do you think that?

I've never heard or seen an add for the leafs, Raptors or TFC. I've seen the TV and Radio Networks promote games but nothing from MLSE.

In fact the only MLSE advertising that I've ever seen was a newspaper advertisement for the Marlies.
http://www.blogto.com/upload/2007/04/Pics%20003.jpg

Also you haven't answered my question:


What season was that?

[Mulder]

Take the TFC discussion to the TFC Thread.

[AngeloV]

Why do you think that?

I've never heard or seen an add for the leafs, Raptors or TFC. I've seen the TV and Radio Networks promote games but nothing from MLSE.

In fact the only MLSE advertising that I've ever seen was a newspaper advertisement for the Marlies.

You're kidding right? They may not do anything on the Leafs end, because they don't have to. But they market the hell out of the Raptors and especially TFC.

[Rich]

You're kidding right? They may not do anything on the Leafs end, because they don't have to. But they market the hell out of the Raptors and especially TFC.

Yes, Raptors and TFC ads are everywhere, billboards, transit, print, radio, easily dwarfing Argonaut advertising. And even though they don't need to advertise the Leafs, I still see those "The Passion That Unites Us All" billboards from time to time.

387

[T-Bone]

They may not do anything on the Leafs end, because they don't have to.
Even for the Leafs they do:
389

They tend to always do something at the beginning of each season. Remember when they got in trouble for these:

http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/gta/2009/11/27/dimanno_sidewalk_ad_spat_has_leafs_fans_feelin_blu e/red_tape_has_leafs_fans_feelinblue.jpeg

Where do you live Neely2005?

[Neely2005]

Even for the Leafs they do:
389

They tend to always do something at the beginning of each season. Remember when they got in trouble for these:

http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/gta/2009/11/27/dimanno_sidewalk_ad_spat_has_leafs_fans_feelin_blu e/red_tape_has_leafs_fans_feelinblue.jpeg

Where do you live Neely2005?

So spray painting the ground is an Ad now? Seems more like graffiti to me.

I live in North York and I've never seen an advertisement from MLSE for the leafs, Raptors or TFC.

Also the Beer Cans would be from the brewer not MLSE.

[T-Bone]

So spray painting the ground is an Ad now? Seems more like graffiti to me.
Which is why they got in trouble for it (http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2009/11/27/dimanno_sidewalk_ad_spat_has_leafs_fans_feelin_blu e.html). They still paid people to spray them and yes that is an ad/marketing.


I live in North York and I've never seen an advertisement from MLSE for the leafs, Raptors or TFC.
Just because you have never seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Seen gravity lately? I'm not talking about the film. Who do you think paid to put that Raptors ad on the subway or that TFC ad on the streetcar?


Also the Beer Cans would be from the brewer not MLSE.
Ya, through a deal with MLSE. Or do you think Molson just decided to put that on there for the hell of it?

[Neely2005]

Which is why they got in trouble for it (http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2009/11/27/dimanno_sidewalk_ad_spat_has_leafs_fans_feelin_blu e.html). They still paid people to spray them and yes that is an ad/marketing.


Just because you have never seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Seen gravity lately? I'm not talking about the film. Who do you think paid to put that Raptors ad on the subway or that TFC ad on the streetcar?


Ya, through a deal with MLSE. Or do you think Molson just decided to put that on there for the hell of it?

Wow what's with the hostility?

I said that I had never seen an advertisement for the leafs, Raptors or TFC. I never said that they don't exist. Believe it or not there aren't any streetcars in my neighborhood and they didn't Tag anything in my neighborhood either.

MLSE didn't pay anything for the beer cans and Molson would have gone through the NHL not MLSE for the license to use the leafs logo.

People are complaining that the Argonauts don't market themselves but compared to MLSE doing some spray painting and paying for a TFC streetcar they certainly seem to be doing a lot more than MLSE are. At least I've actually heard and seen Argonauts advertisements.

[T-Bone]

I said that I had never seen an advertisement for the leafs, Raptors or TFC. I never said that they don't exist. Believe it or not there aren't any streetcars in my neighborhood and they didn't Tag anything in my neighborhood either.
I know what you said. Then myself and other people posted photos that clearly show the advertising that you have never seen, so you go and repeat yourself. Did you miss and not see the photos we posted? Repeating the fact that you have never seen the ads yourself doesn't prove the point you are trying to make. You have also stated other "facts" in the past and then when questioned about said facts you have ignored the questions and refused to answer, perhaps because your "facts" were not facts after all?


MLSE didn't pay anything for the beer cans and Molson would have gone through the NHL not MLSE for the license to use the leafs logo.
You're probably right. My mistake.


People are complaining that the Argonauts don't market themselves but compared to MLSE doing some spray painting and paying for a TFC streetcar they certainly seem to be doing a lot more than MLSE are. At least I've actually heard and seen Argonauts advertisements.
Those are just a few examples, do a Google search and there are plenty more. Again you're using yourself as the example of fact. You're observations are not facts. If you want to go down that road, do a poll on here and see how many people have seen more advertising from MLSE vs. the Argos. I'm willing to put money on it that you will be in the minority.

[Neely2005]

I know what you said. Then myself and other people posted photos that clearly show the advertising that you have never seen, so you go and repeat yourself. Did you miss and not see the photos we posted? Repeating the fact that you have never seen the ads yourself doesn't prove the point you are trying to make. You have also stated other "facts" in the past and then when questioned about said facts you have ignored the questions and refused to answer, perhaps because your "facts" were not facts after all?


You're probably right. My mistake.


Those are just a few examples, do a Google search and there are plenty more. Again you're using yourself as the example of fact. You're observations are not facts. If you want to go down that road, do a poll on here and see how many people have seen more advertising from MLSE vs. the Argos. I'm willing to put money on it that you will be in the minority.

Again what's with the hostility? Do you get this worked up about everything?

In my original post about this I asked a Question saying "Why do you think that?"

I then shared my own personal experiences. You or anyone posting pictures doesn't change my personal experiences. To this day I still have not seen an add From MLSE for the leafs, Raptors or TFC. So in my experience the Argonauts do more advertising than MLSE since I've seen and heard many Argonauts advertisements. I was asking a question and sharing my experiences and opinion nothing more. If you're experiences or opinion is different that's cool but they aren't mine. As to your diatribe about "facts" I'm not sure what you're referring to as I don't read every single post in every single Thread on this site.

I honestly don't care enough about it but if you want to make a Poll about it go right ahead.

[T-Bone]

Again what's with the hostility? Do you get this worked up about everything?I don't know why I'm bothering to respond but it's frustration not hostility. Either way you're going to belive what you want to belive so carry on.

[Rich]

I then shared my own personal experiences. You or anyone posting pictures doesn't change my personal experiences. To this day I still have not seen an add From MLSE for the leafs, Raptors or TFC. So in my experience the Argonauts do more advertising than MLSE since I've seen and heard many Argonauts advertisements.

The issue is whether MLSE runs a lot of advertising for the Raptors and the TFC. We have provided some evidence that they do, and if you care to research it, you will find a lot more evidence that they do.

Simply saying that "you haven't seen any" only means that you haven't been out enough, or taken transit enough, or read enough papers or listened/watched enough broadcasts.

You remind me of people who say "I couldn't name one player on the Argonauts" as a way of "proving" that the CFL is "minor-league".

[Neely2005]

I don't know why I'm bothering to respond but it's frustration not hostility. Either way you're going to belive what you want to belive so carry on.

Fair enough. Yes I will, as will you. It's pretty rare that anyone is able to change someone else's mind, especially on a message board.


The issue is whether MLSE runs a lot of advertising for the Raptors and the TFC. We have provided some evidence that they do, and if you care to research it, you will find a lot more evidence that they do.

Simply saying that "you haven't seen any" only means that you haven't been out enough, or taken transit enough, or read enough papers or listened/watched enough broadcasts.

You remind me of people who say "I couldn't name one player on the Argonauts" as a way of "proving" that the CFL is "minor-league".

Did you just ignore the rest of my post? You know the part where I said that I was originally asking a Question and why I was asking it.

Ah the subtle "you haven't been out enough" insult. Very nice. It's odd that despite "not getting out enough" I've still been able to see and hear advertisements from the Argonauts. Weird. I guess all this MLSE advertising must not be on the channels I watch or not on the radio stations that I listen too or not in the papers or magazines that I read or not on the billboards I see on my 50 Km drive to work every day.

[T-Bone]

Yes I will, as will you. It's pretty rare that anyone is able to change someone else's mind, especially on a message board.
Maybe it's a rarity but I just changed my mind twice on this page alone:


To be fair though, you're right that the team does seem to be doing a fair bit of marketing.


You're probably right. My mistake.
You never proved your statement of fact by providing any evidence but it was a logical point so I accepted it as quite possibly being true. Maybe you missed that though because like you said:


I don't read every single post in every single Thread on this site.

[paulwoods13]

So because none of us are marketing experts we shouldn't have opinions on the marketing of the team? By that logic we should shut down this site and probably the rest of the internet then. To be fair though, you're right that the team does seem to be doing a fair bit of marketing. Maybe it just feels like not much because the team is still struggling with attendance a year after winning a championship. That brings me back to the question I asked earlier "How much good are those ads doing?" In my non-expert opinion they're not doing as well as they could be. You mentioned earlier the comic book theme they had going this past year which I did notice but thought was kind of weak. It felt like someone said "What's popular these day? Oh, I know. It's comic book movies. Let's go with a comic book theme." Then they just used existing X-Men nicknames and attached them to players. They couldn't come up with original nicknames? Maybe that would have been cheesier, I don't know. You see some of the stuff coming out of Hamilton which seems to be a lot more current and I assume they have a similar budget to us when it comes to marketing. This may seem cheesy (http://www.ticats.ca/video/index/id/86999) but I think it works with the 20-35 year old demographic that the Argos seem to struggle with. I also find this (http://www.ticats.ca/video/index/id/89317) a lot better than stuff I've seen from the Argos. Anyway I'm no Don Draper and that's just my opinion.

You're reaching for something that's not therer, IMO. It's a massive leap from "they are spending money and should not be accused of not doing so" to "none of us is qualified to comment so let's shut the site down." Go back in this thread -- I was defending them against accusations they do nothing to market themselves. Whether or not their marketing strategy and their choices of where to spend money are effective is something any of us can comment on. I'd personally value some input from an actual marketing expert over fans (like me) who don't know how that business (i.e. marketing) works. But that doesn't mean and it did not imply that no one else should give their opinion.

[T-Bone]

You're reaching for something that's not therer, IMO. It's a massive leap from "they are spending money and should not be accused of not doing so" to "none of us is qualified to comment so let's shut the site down."
Ok, my apologies.


Go back in this thread -- I was defending them against accusations they do nothing to market themselves.
Like I said earlier you're right the team does seem to be doing more marketing than I was giving them credit for. I realized that after you pointed out several things but to be clear I was never of the "Argos spend $0 on/do no marketing camp."


Whether or not their marketing strategy and their choices of where to spend money are effective is something any of us can comment on. I'd personally value some input from an actual marketing expert over fans (like me) who don't know how that business (i.e. marketing) works. But that doesn't mean and it did not imply that no one else should give their opinion.
Ok. Out of curiosity, what do you think of the marketing that the Argos have done in the past year? I don't mean the strategy as much as the actual ads themselves.


Best I could find - without actually phoning and asking - were TTC ad rates from 2010 -
http://www.blogto.com/city/2010/10/ever_wondered_what_it_costs_to_advertise_on_the_tt c/

Interesting numbers.

Subway station posters in "AA" stations (the busiest) - $2,000 per month. per poster.
Wrapping a single streetcar for a month is $17,000.


it could be different now; these rates are from 2010 when CBS handled the advertising. Today it's handled by Pattison Outdoor. http://www.pattisonoutdoor.com/en/ttc-advertising/media-products
I forgot to say thanks for looking that up.


Hamilton has struggled to sell tickets too. Not sure their ads are working any better.

(John Wanamaker, father of modern advertising: "Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half.")
This is also interesting. Though I feel their marketing is better than the Argos you're right they have had attendance issues as well.

[paulwoods13]

Ok. Out of curiosity, what do you think of the marketing that the Argos have done in the past year? I don't mean the strategy as much as the actual ads themselves.


I don't know what it cost and what the alternatives were, so I can only say what I thought of what they did, isolated from those factors. My judgment is expressed as someone who observes ads but has no real knowledge of what constitutes a successful or unsuccessful ad strategy. That said, I liked the content of the radio and print ads, and the fact that the specifics changed throughout the season so it was a "campaign" and not just a single set of pre-packaged ads. And I thought it was potentially enticing to young people, a segment they need to be going after (although I think the common complaint that Argo crowds skew old is not as accurate as many think).

[Argo57]

Ok, my apologies.


Like I said earlier you're right the team does seem to be doing more marketing than I was giving them credit for. I realized that after you pointed out several things but to be clear I was never of the "Argos spend $0 on/do no marketing camp."


Ok. Out of curiosity, what do you think of the marketing that the Argos have done in the past year? I don't mean the strategy as much as the actual ads themselves.


I forgot to say thanks for looking that up.


This is also interesting. Though I feel their marketing is better than the Argos you're right they have had attendance issues as well.

One thing the Ticats are much better at is merchandizing, see hats and jerseys everywhere in the Hammer and surrounding area. Tigertown stores are usually busy, perhaps MLSE ownership will improve availability and variety of what's available as this would enhance the revenue stream and make the Argonauts brand much more visible.

[Fumblitis]

I think the Argo marketing strategy needs to reach the immigrant population. Why not have football educational clinics and have someone knowledgeable about the game have a Punjabi
or Farsi translator aimed at those cultures. That's just one example of what they could do.

[ArgoRavi]

I think the Argo marketing strategy needs to reach the immigrant population. Why not have football educational clinics and have someone knowledgeable about the game have a Punjabi
or Farsi translator aimed at those cultures. That's just one example of what they could do.

I know that they have been running such clinics over the last year or two and that doing so is one of their top priorities.

[Neely2005]

One thing the Ticats are much better at is merchandizing, see hats and jerseys everywhere in the Hammer and surrounding area. Tigertown stores are usually busy, perhaps MLSE ownership will improve availability and variety of what's available as this would enhance the revenue stream and make the Argonauts brand much more visible.

Hamilton also only has 2 professional sports teams. The Argonauts have a lot more competition.

[Argo57]

Hamilton also only has 2 professional sports teams. The Argonauts have a lot more competition.

Toronto also has a higher population to draw from as well.

[ArgoRedneck]

Just catching up here. I see that my starting post has kinda gone to marketing. IMO, marketing $$$$, type, and value is tough to judge. The Bills series in the last 2 years on a PER GAME $ figure has had the most money spent on it. The game was promoted everywhere 38,000 is all they could get for all that money. The NFL is the #1 sport in North America, the way I see it Toronto is the issue. From other fans and players in pro sports, Toronto is just not a great sport city.

Argos to BMO 2015, with MLSE purchase in 2014.

[bluto]

I'm at a pub and can't rewind to confirm... Pretty sure that Chris Rudge is in the middle seat behind the Leafs bench tonight... Can someone check this for me?

[ArgoRedneck]

I'm at a pub and can't rewind to confirm... Pretty sure that Chris Rudge is in the middle seat behind the Leafs bench tonight... Can someone check this for me?

YEP. That would be a MLSE seat.

[Argo57]

YEP. That would be a MLSE seat.

I saw it as well......wonder what's up???????????

[ArgoRedneck]

I saw it as well......wonder what's up???????????

The Argos are up....Up 4 Sale:shhhh:

[ArgoRavi]

I saw it as well......wonder what's up???????????

Rocket would say that Rudge is watching a hockey game when he should be working. :p

[Argo57]

The Argos are up....Up 4 Sale:shhhh:

I say the deals done!!!

[bluto]

I say the deals done!!!

apparently they aren't even trying to disguise it. putting our very recognizable CEO directly behind the Leaf bench in an MLSE seat...

[R.J]

Rocket would say that Rudge is watching a hockey game when he should be working. :p
Rocket/1991argo

"Did anyone else here about last night at the leafs game that Chris "numnuts" rudge was sitting behind the leafs bench! I wonder if there were any talks going on last night with ml$e about the future of the Argos?"
http://forums.cfl.ca/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=86229&start=375

[argotom]

The Argos are up....Up 4 Sale:shhhh:


In my opinion this would be a big mistake, like making a deal with the devil is the old saying.

[ArgoRavi]

In my opinion this would be a big mistake, like making a deal with the devil is the old saying.

Unfortunately, the devil is the only one willing to make a deal.

[gilthethrill]

Unfortunately, the devil is the only one willing to make a deal.

If MLSE does become the owners of my favorite sports franchise, all I can think of is the exposure the Argos will get.

[ArgoRavi]

If MLSE does become the owners of my favorite sports franchise, all I can think of is the exposure the Argos will get.

I happen to agree with you, Gil. I threw in the "unfortunately" for ArgoTom.

[Neely2005]

If MLSE does become the owners of my favorite sports franchise, all I can think of is the exposure the Argos will get.

Or how they'll be the low man on the MLSE Totem Pole below the leafs, Raptors, TFC and maybe even the Marlies.

Or how MLSE might try to drive them out of business in order to advance their dream of having a NFL Team.

[T-Bone]

Or how they'll be the low man on the MLSE Totem Pole below the leafs, Raptors, TFC and maybe even the Marlies.

Or how MLSE might try to drive them out of business in order to advance their dream of having a NFL Team.
Or maybe they won't.

[gilthethrill]

Or how they'll be the low man on the MLSE Totem Pole below the leafs, Raptors, TFC and maybe even the Marlies.

Or how MLSE might try to drive them out of business in order to advance their dream of having a NFL Team.

The NFL coming to Toronto is just that....a dream.

[T-Bone]

The NFL coming to Toronto is just that....a dream.
Regardless, why would the NFL grant a football team to an organization (I know about the NFL's ownership rules) that intentionally buys a team to "try to drive them out of business?" Wouldn't it be smarter for MLSE to just not buy the Argos at all if they want to "drive them out of business?" There doesn't appear to be a bidding war over the team.

[gilthethrill]

Regardless, why would the NFL grant a football team to an organization (I know about the NFL's ownership rules) that intentionally buys a team to "try to drive them out of business?" Wouldn't it be smarter for MLSE to just not buy the Argos at all if they want to "drive them out of business?" There doesn't appear to be a bidding war over the team.

Excellent point T-Bone...invest a few million in the Argos to bury them. Not sure of the advantage there.

[Ron]

Or how MLSE might try to drive them out of business in order to advance their dream of having a NFL Team.

This is an often quoted complete fallacy as far as "getting an NFL team" is involved. It has been clearly and distinctly stated for YEARS by the NFL that they INSIST that the CFL be protected. So IF (Yes, the big imaginary IF which is boring to discuss due to the hugeness of the IF and how the most important part does not even exist at this time) anyone tries to get a NFL team in this city the Argos will be safe. (or the NFL isn't giving anyone a team)

If MLSE buys the Argos ... they are only concerned about making $ and filling 10-11 dates at BMO. And IF a NFL team ever came in the next 20 years ... they will still need to fill those 10-11 dates at BMO regardless.

Oh, and many have forgotten that the NFL did save the CFL with a loan when the CFL was about to fold.

By the way. Here's a jeopardy question for home gamers.

What is the reason (beyond any moral supporting a national league) that the NFL NEEDS!! the CFL to survive and THRIVE? (Which precludes killing a team in the CFL's richest national market)

[Argo]

By the way. Here's a jeopardy question for home gamers.

What is the reason (beyond any moral supporting a national league) that the NFL NEEDS!! the CFL to survive and THRIVE? (Which precludes killing a team in the CFL's richest national market)

Anti-trust / monopolistic practice

[Invader]

The Argos and CFL has a strong following in Toronto, on par with the NFL according to the recent Angus Reid poll. That's a lot of football fans who have an emotional tie to the Argos. An NFL team coming in might steal half of those fans but could they thrive with support from only 75% of the city's football fans? This is an advantage for American NFL teams as they don't have competition from any other professional football teams in their city.

An NFL team trying to co-exist the Argos, even promoting the Argos above the NFL team (to keep their promise of keeping Argos and CFL alive), might be more trouble than its worth.

If the Argos went out of business it would make an NFL venture into Toronto a much easier proposition. MLSE owning the Argos seems like a "letting the fox into the hen-house" type scenario to me.

[Neely2005]

Or maybe they won't.

Maybe but one is just as likely as the other.


The NFL coming to Toronto is just that....a dream.

Oh I agree but MLSE seems to think that it's a possibility and if they think getting rid of the Argonauts will help them to do that I wouldn't put it past them.

[T-Bone]

Maybe but one is just as likely as the other.
Everything is hypothetical right now. I see more logical reasons for MLSE not to do that though if they buy the Argos than for doing that if they buy the Argos.


Oh I agree but MLSE seems to think that it's a possibility and if they think getting rid of the Argonauts will help them to do that I wouldn't put it past them.
Honestly these responses of yours come off like fear mongering because you haven't presented a logical argument for why MLSE would do that.

[Tau Ceti]

If the Argos went out of business it would make an NFL venture into Toronto a much easier proposition. MLSE owning the Argos seems like a "letting the fox into the hen-house" type scenario to me.

Or it would permanently alienate the NFL by convincing them still further that Toronto is not a football town. Why does anyone think a failed CFL team will impress the NFL? Imagine walking into a bank and saying "I'd like a loan for a huge restaurant; I let my little one go out of business just to prove to you I'm serious." It just doesn't make sense.

[Ron]

Anti-trust / monopolistic practice

that's a bingo!

[argolio]

Oh, and many have forgotten that the NFL did save the CFL with a loan when the CFL was about to fold.

By the way. Here's a jeopardy question for home gamers.

What is the reason (beyond any moral supporting a national league) that the NFL NEEDS!! the CFL to survive and THRIVE? (Which precludes killing a team in the CFL's richest national market)As Argo mentioned, the existence of the CFL benefits the NFL in American anti-trust law.

Yes the NFL did help the CFL with that loan, but no one is really arguing the NFL itself wants a team in Toronto. Whatever desire to get a team here is locally driven, and involves moving an existing team (the Bills). So if a local bid for the Bills was actually successful, would the NFL actually do anything to intervene? Could they do anything?

[argotom]

Unfortunately, the devil is the only one willing to make a deal.


Granted, however let's hope in the background there are others kicking the tires if in fact the official For Sale sign is out by Mr. Braley.


The Argos and CFL has a strong following in Toronto, on par with the NFL according to the recent Angus Reid poll. That's a lot of football fans who have an emotional tie to the Argos. An NFL team coming in might steal half of those fans but could they thrive with support from only 75% of the city's football fans? This is an advantage for American NFL teams as they don't have competition from any other professional football teams in their city.

An NFL team trying to co-exist the Argos, even promoting the Argos above the NFL team (to keep their promise of keeping Argos and CFL alive), might be more trouble than its worth.

If the Argos went out of business it would make an NFL venture into Toronto a much easier proposition. MLSE owning the Argos seems like a "letting the fox into the hen-house" type scenario to me.


Couldn't agree more.


As Argo mentioned, the existence of the CFL benefits the NFL in American anti-trust law.

Yes the NFL did help the CFL with that loan, but no one is really arguing the NFL itself wants a team in Toronto. Whatever desire to get a team here is locally driven, and involves moving an existing team (the Bills). So if a local bid for the Bills was actually successful, would the NFL actually do anything to intervene? Could they do anything?

Maybe not, but a private members bill from one of our feds aka the Marc Lalonde anti WFL 1974 legislation just my do the trick.

[paulwoods13]

The Argos are not mentioned here as possible tenants, but IMO this is further evidence that BMO is where we will end up:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/24-7/winter-classic-could-be-coming-to-toronto/

[Shatto]

There are appears to be several undeniable facts at play. 1) the Argos must find a new stadium. 2) MLSE desparately want to expand and update BMO stadium 3) MLSE has a history of getting others to help pay for what they want. 4)MLSE does not want the competition of a new stadium in this area 5) Now that Rogers has the NHL rights locked up, Bell/TSN need to expand highlighting the sports they will carry-CFL being a primary sport for them 6) Braley wants to sell the Argos All of this seems to lead to the inevitable conclusion that the Argos will end up playing at BMO in the near future with MLSE probably owning to team. Will this be good or bad for the future of the Argos--probably good but only time will tell.

[ArgoGabe22]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p><a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23CFL&amp;src=hash">#CFL</a> sources told me that privately, at the executive level, the <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Argos&amp;src=hash">#Argos</a> hope a scenario unfolds where MLSE purchases the franchise.</p>&mdash; Arash Madani (@ArashMadani) <a href="https://twitter.com/ArashMadani/statuses/418400536938164225">January 1, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Full article: Does MLSE want to buy, bring Argos to BMO Field?

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/does-mlse-want-to-buy-bring-argos-to-bmo-field/

[ArgoRavi]

The Argos are not mentioned here as possible tenants, but IMO this is further evidence that BMO is where we will end up:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/24-7/winter-classic-could-be-coming-to-toronto/

The fact that Lieweke mentions the possibility of the Grey Cup being played at a renovated BMO Field speaks volumes.

[Invader]

Seems a bit odd that MLSE wants "hundreds of millions" in upgrades to a $63-million facility? The Argos and TFC don't need 40,000 seats. This is more likely an NFL play, which was the stated goal of Leiweke when he arrived at MLSE. The 40,000-seater is likely the "lower bowl" of an NFL stadium, with a 25,000-seat upper bowl option designed into the structure. This future upgrade might cost only $200 million for the NFL, a far cry from the projected $1 Billion for a new stadium...but now with the taxpayers footing the bill.

[bluto]

a few of us have been saying this for a few months now...

the fact that Lieweke is getting quoted in articles about Argos and CFL at BMO and being part of a rennovation/enhancement of that facility suggests that the planning and preparations for this have been going on for a very long time. they aren't just running this up the flag pole... this is the behind the scenes reality at both companies and evidently at 3 levels of government.

i have many hopes for this venture, but i'd like to publicly add one here that i haven't thusfar: should BMO get upgraded for CFL usage, i hope that the sightlines and atmosphere for the TFC supporters isn't diminished. i say this not as a TFC fan (i'm not one, though i do follow another soccer team) but as a fellow sports fan expressing empathy. i know how i'd feel if i were in their position... and i hope that they still will have a gameday experience that will help them grow their game.

[argotom]

No MLSE and please no BMO possibility.

[BATKINSON001]

this is happening whether we fans like it or not... they just refuse to make it official at this time

[paulwoods13]

i have many hopes for this venture, but i'd like to publicly add one here that i haven't thusfar: should BMO get upgraded for CFL usage, i hope that the sightlines and atmosphere for the TFC supporters isn't diminished. i say this not as a TFC fan (i'm not one, though i do follow another soccer team) but as a fellow sports fan expressing empathy. i know how i'd feel if i were in their position... and i hope that they still will have a gameday experience that will help them grow their game.

I agree and will go even further -- I hope they get a better experience than they have now. Not that the current one is bad, but if and when the stadium is upgraded I hope it is a spectacular environment for both sports.

[Argo57]

I agree and will go even further -- I hope they get a better experience than they have now. Not that the current one is bad, but if and when the stadium is upgraded I hope it is a spectacular environment for both sports.

MLSE has tons of cash, I suspect the renovation will be first class (to satisfy both soccer and football fans alike).
Although many fans have mixed emotions regarding MLSE ownership, this would mark the first time in over 3 decades that the Argonauts would be financially sound!!

[argotom]

Went to one soccer game at BMO and that was enough.
Absolutely the worst so called stadium from a fans perspective.
A glorified bleacher like facility with a basket acting like a seat with no arm rest and no leg room for a person over six feet.
The stands are made out of match sticks as it shakes like the entire house of cards will come down.
If by chance this happens, I for one after nearly 20 years as a season ticket holder will not renew.

[Rich]

Seems a bit odd that MLSE wants "hundreds of millions" in upgrades to a $63-million facility? The Argos and TFC don't need 40,000 seats. This is more likely an NFL play, which was the stated goal of Leiweke when he arrived at MLSE. The 40,000-seater is likely the "lower bowl" of an NFL stadium, with a 25,000-seat upper bowl option designed into the structure. This future upgrade might cost only $200 million for the NFL, a far cry from the projected $1 Billion for a new stadium...but now with the taxpayers footing the bill.

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?2222-MLSE-interested-in-Argos-with-eye-on-NFL-in-Toronto&p=36491&viewfull=1#post36491

These were my only reservations about the MLSE/BMO option, but now I'm afraid this is exactly what's going on here. Again, the word "expandable" will be the key when it comes to the BMO renovations.

[bluto]

Seems a bit odd that MLSE wants "hundreds of millions" in upgrades to a $63-million facility? The Argos and TFC don't need 40,000 seats. This is more likely an NFL play, which was the stated goal of Leiweke when he arrived at MLSE. The 40,000-seater is likely the "lower bowl" of an NFL stadium, with a 25,000-seat upper bowl option designed into the structure. This future upgrade might cost only $200 million for the NFL, a far cry from the projected $1 Billion for a new stadium...but now with the taxpayers footing the bill.


http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?2222-MLSE-interested-in-Argos-with-eye-on-NFL-in-Toronto&p=36491&viewfull=1#post36491

These were my only reservations about the MLSE/BMO option, but now I'm afraid this is exactly what's going on here. Again, the word "expandable" will be the key when it comes to the BMO renovations.

i can't imagine that there's anything to this at all.

BMO stadium in it's current incarnation could never expand to have a 40k lower bowl type of setup. that would be a total demolition and starting over from the ground up. i haven't heard anyone suggest anything of the kind. as other posters have already said, BMO is pretty much made from tinker-toy stuff right now... this isn't the sort of structure that gets made into a 65K NFL style stadium.

i see it more as a 30ish-thousand seater, with the potential to have 10K more for special events like Winter Classics or Grey Cups. (the more i think about it, the less likely i think it is that MLSE, if the own the Argos, would want a Grey Cup in Toronto in any other building than one that they own... so i doubt that the RC gets used for GCs and home playoffs)

[ArgoRedneck]

I got a tip and did some fishing and pretended I knew more than I did with some people on the in and with some really on the in. I' am not going to debate this but it sounds like I atleast will stop guessing. Looks like we will be at BMO field for 2015 season. I also got that the Argos will be on the road for a bit during the start of the season. My guess is that is because of a retro-fit. MLSE will own the Argos. Braley is the problem but the deal will get done.

If am wrong I will host a tailgate where we end up for the ACTIVE current members on this form.

Bump

Folks it's done like i said.

[T-Bone]

i can't imagine that there's anything to this at all.

BMO stadium in it's current incarnation could never expand to have a 40k lower bowl type of setup. that would be a total demolition and starting over from the ground up. i haven't heard anyone suggest anything of the kind. as other posters have already said, BMO is pretty much made from tinker-toy stuff right now... this isn't the sort of structure that gets made into a 65K NFL style stadium.

i see it more as a 30ish-thousand seater, with the potential to have 10K more for special events like Winter Classics or Grey Cups. (the more i think about it, the less likely i think it is that MLSE, if the own the Argos, would want a Grey Cup in Toronto in any other building than one that they own... so i doubt that the RC gets used for GCs and home playoffs)
I agree. I doubt even after renovations they could bring BMO Field up to a 65K NFL style stadium with out pretty much 3/4 or full demolition. A 30K with 40K expansion or 40K total capacity is much more likely. I'm sure like you have said that they want that for possibly future Grey Cups but I think the main reason is the Winter Classic. MLSE already put a bid in for the event back in 2009 but I'm pretty sure it was declined due to BMO Field's current capacity.

[zontar]

NFL would laugh at the site and structure no matter how many people you can seat. Way more goes into an NFL worthy stadium nowadays than just how many you can cram into it..

This is a all about an annual winter classic for the Leafs and geting another sports property for MLSE.

[ardesh]

The Argos are going to ruin BMO FIELD! I hope MLSE sees that and how bad of an investment a money losing team like the Argos are.

[Mulder]

The Argos are going to ruin BMO FIELD! I hope MLSE sees that and how bad of an investment a money losing team like the Argos are.

Send in the soccer snobs with non-factual statements, and no real argument as to why it shouldn't/won't happen!

[T-Bone]

Send in the soccer snobs with non-factual statements, and no real argument as to why it shouldn't/won't happen!
I don't think the name calling from either side is going to help things. Also it appears not just the majority of TFC fans are against the Argos moving in to BMO Field:


If by chance this happens, I for one after nearly 20 years as a season ticket holder will not renew.

[Rich]

BMO stadium in it's current incarnation could never expand to have a 40k lower bowl type of setup. that would be a total demolition and starting over from the ground up. i haven't heard anyone suggest anything of the kind. as other posters have already said, BMO is pretty much made from tinker-toy stuff right now... this isn't the sort of structure that gets made into a 65K NFL style stadium.


"Hundreds of millions" of dollars worth of renovations on a $60M stadium sounds like a complete re-do to me.

[Mulder]

I don't think the name calling from either side is going to help things.

Not really name calling when it's the truth. If he had more of a valid response I wouldn't have called him a soccer snob.

[ArgoRavi]

Not really name calling when it's the truth. If he had more of a valid response I wouldn't have called him a soccer snob.

Also, every post that particular individual has made on here has been insulting towards the Argos.

[T-Bone]

Not really name calling when it's the truth. If he had more of a valid response I wouldn't have called him a soccer snob.
Ok. What exactly is a "soccer snob?"


Also, every post that particular individual has made on here has been insulting towards the Argos.
His few posts are all pretty much of the same vain. I'm curious as to what his motives for posting here are.

[paulwoods13]

Regardless of this particular individual's motives, I agree with T-Bone that we should all resist the temptation to fire bullets at the soccer crowd. There is a very good chance we are going to end up sharing a nice stadium, hopefully to the benefit of both sports/teams, and there is no downside in keeping the discussion civil in the meantime.

[Deerkeeper]

"Hundreds of millions" of dollars worth of renovations on a $60M stadium sounds like a complete re-do to me. If it is a major redo, then it is not going to happen during the soccer off season. If they want it done by 2015, they almost have to start now. But when ever they start, TFC is going to be homeless for at least a season. Would FC fans make the trip to Tim Horton's Field or would the team move into Rogers Playpen and get better dates than the Argos do?

[Mulder]

It's ok. They are the ones who are already looking to put up a fight. (the ones that are left)

They are "snobby" to think they can have both. Which is a renovated stadium with a roof, and no Argos.

It's one or the other.

It's also foolish to think that MLSE can recreate the "magic" was the first 4-5 seasons. They've lost a good chunk of the fanbase that will never return. With probably more this season that won't return. Besides, I'll have to wait to see if BMO field actually turned a profit for the city. Which it is really close to not doing in 2013.

[T-Bone]

It's ok. They are the ones who are already looking to put up a fight. (the ones that are left)

They are "snobby" to think they can have both. Which is a renovated stadium with a roof, and no Argos.

It's one or the other.
Who is saying they are going to put up a fight? Who wants it "both ways?" Also why does it have to be "One or the other?"


It's also foolish to think that MLSE can recreate the "magic" was the first 4-5 seasons. They've lost a good chunk of the fanbase that will never return. With probably more this season that won't return.
Some of the magic has defiantly been lost. That's inevitable with the record TFC has after 7 seasons. 2014 season ticket renewals have not started yet so we will just have to wait and see what the numbers end up being. Last season though the season ticket holder number was at 15,800 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/toronto-fc-slashes-season-ticket-prices-after-disastrous-season/article4621019/). Before TFC started MLSE said they would be happy with 13,000 per game regular attendance. No one expected TFC to be the off field success that it was in season one.

[Mulder]

Who is saying they are going to put up a fight? Who wants it "both ways?" Also why does it have to be "One or the other?"


You know who and where it's being said. But a hint anyways, it rhythms with Dead Patch Noise.

[T-Bone]

You know who and where it's being said. But a hint anyways, it rhythms with Dead Patch Noise.
The Red Patch Boys don't speak for all TFC fans. I don't frequent their forum because to be honest, a lot of it is crap. They are the noisiest group and get the most media attention as a result. I would be fine with BMO Field staying as it is. If it is going to be renovated, I'm willing to wait and see what is purposed before jumping of the ledge as some TFC fans and argotom have. I just hope that TFC fans concerns are addressed by MLSE in all this. If the situation was reversed how many here would be complaining about that "Crappy Toronto Soccer (because football is played with your hands) Club" moving in. Deerkeeper's already taking the opportunity to come up with scenarios to complain about the Argos getting crapped on long before any logistics have been worked out. All we can do is wait and see what happens.

[Will]

I will throw in my agreement with Mr. Woods. If we are to share a stadium with Toronto FC fans then I would hope that Argo fans would conduct themselves with class when dealing with Toronto FC fans. It is unfortunate that this doesn't appear to be the case.

...and no just because certain Toronto FC fans aren't acting classy isn't an excuse to act poorly.

[QBall]

The fact that Lieweke mentions the possibility of the Grey Cup being played at a renovated BMO Field speaks volumes.

Am I the only one that would prefer the Grey Cup be played at the Robbers Center? I would think the CFL execs, and I would be in agreement, would rather be nice and toasty warm during a Grey Cup inside the concrete sarcophagus than have their nads frozen off by a constant on shore breeze at BMO. Plus Robbers holds more people. I guess it's moot if MLSE buys the Argos, but if they don't then why would the CFL choose a renovated BMO?

[Argo57]

I will throw in my agreement with Mr. Woods. If we are to share a stadium with Toronto FC fans then I would hope that Argo fans would conduct themselves with class when dealing with Toronto FC fans. It is unfortunate that this doesn't appear to be the case.

...and no just because certain Toronto FC fans aren't acting classy isn't an excuse to act poorly.

Agreed!!
I'm sure if this (Reno) happens the game experience will be enhanced for both TFC fans and Argo fans which is the only thing that matters. I myself am not a soccer fan but having said that wish TFC well when they play, I grew up a Toronto sports fan and want all of our teams to do succeed period!!
Argos are my favourite team, if your team happens to be TFC, Rock, Leafs enjoy!
Simply ignore the antagonistic dumb-ass posts and carry on!

[ardesh]

"Not only that, it would seem a strangely accommodating decision just to squeeze in nine or ten dates per year of minor league football.'

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2014/01/02/more-talk-of-football-at-bmo-field/

[Invader]

Am I the only one that would prefer the Grey Cup be played at the Robbers Center? I would think the CFL execs, and I would be in agreement, would rather be nice and toasty warm during a Grey Cup inside the concrete sarcophagus than have their nads frozen off by a constant on shore breeze at BMO. Plus Robbers holds more people. I guess it's moot if MLSE buys the Argos, but if they don't then why would the CFL choose a renovated BMO?
It makes little sense to play the Grey Cup at BMO when RC is sitting empty. I believe Leiweke brought up the Winter Classic and Grey Cup as potential events as they require a 40,000-seat stadium...the Argos and TFC not so much (and weren't mentioned). Leiweke said "expandability" is the key. What other event would require 40,000+ seats in a football configureation? (not the Bills as they don't need that many seats).

It's funny how MLSE has changed their tune since October. Leiweke said MLSE would be paying for the BMO upgrades, but now claims they've already lobbied 3 levels of government "at high levels" for funding to renovate the 7-year old stadium?


Oct.1/13:
Leiweke: "The two or three principals that we have locked in on, that we will not bend on, first has to be grass, cannot be artificial or else we don't get designated players and it ruins the experience for the fans of both clubs. Two, you have to have a seating configuration for soccer that is as good if not better than today and a seating configuration for the CFL that offers the expanded end-zones and a 55 yard line not a 50 yard line. Three, you have to do this by making sure that you put additional improvements into the overall stadium including a roof and being able to afford it financially knowing that we are going to have to pick up the cheque and the tax payers are not going to write a cheque for these improvements."

http://www.wakingthered.com/2013/9/3...of-100-million (http://www.wakingthered.com/2013/9/30/4789410/tim-leiweke-toronto-fc-argos-bmo-field-roof-100-million)


Jan.1/14:
"...an upgrade of the magnitude Leiweke has described requires a sizeable financial investment that the CFL would be unwilling to finance. It may not be required for the league to do so. Leiweke told Johnston that MLSE has already lobbied all three levels of government to help fund the "hundreds of millions" of dollars estimated to upgrade BMO. That figure is significantly more than the original cost of the building, along Toronto’s lakeshore on the city’s exhibition grounds, which was $62.9 million back in 2007.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/does-mlse-want-to-buy-bring-argos-to-bmo-field/

[jerrym]

While I agree that we should show respect for soccer fans, I have another concern. Despite the fact that I really want the Argos to have a fine, new, permanent home, I am concerned with the ever growing demand that billionaire corporations and individuals can build ever grander sports centres primarily through the funding provided by average taxpayers or team X will die or move, especially when health care, education, roads, sewer systems and other services more essential to life are continually facing demands for cutbacks. You can be sure that if MLSE gets the hundreds of millions it seeks from government, the demand for the next sports centre will be for even more taxpayer money, driving up the value of the owners, players (the CFL players would be a rare exception to the modern pro's millionaire salaries), TV networks and ticket prices. American cities have paid a high price in terms for following this model. I'm now ready to be stoned for my comments.

[Neely2005]

Am I the only one that would prefer the Grey Cup be played at the Robbers Center? I would think the CFL execs, and I would be in agreement, would rather be nice and toasty warm during a Grey Cup inside the concrete sarcophagus than have their nads frozen off by a constant on shore breeze at BMO. Plus Robbers holds more people. I guess it's moot if MLSE buys the Argos, but if they don't then why would the CFL choose a renovated BMO?

I agree that I'd rather have Playoff games and Grey Cup games played at the Rogers Centre. I have zero appetite for watching a sporting event in sub zero temperatures.

[QBall]

It makes little sense to play the Grey Cup at BMO when RC is sitting empty. I believe Leiweke brought up the Winter Classic and Grey Cup as potential events as they require a 40,000-seat stadium...the Argos and TFC not so much (and weren't mentioned). Leiweke said "expandability" is the key. What other event would require 40,000+ seats in a football configureation? (not the Bills as they don't need that many seats).

That's a good question. Anything big would be going to the RC (would you want to risk your event to the whims of the weather gods?). The Winter Classic is a one time thing so to me it's not the selling point to hang your hat on. If MLSE isn't whispering Argos in the ears of the politicians I can't see why they would agree to fund any sort of expansion for a stadium to be used by essentially one team. I would imagine all three levels would tell MLSE to pay for it yourself but considering the Liberals were willing to covertly give MLSE $500,000 to host the NBA All Star Game maybe Leiweke has a more silvery tongue than was first assumed.

[Shatto]

BMO is owned by Toronto and run by MLSE MLSE is owned in part by Bell which owns TSN. Now that Rogers has NHL rights for 12 years, Bell/TSN must have a thriving CFL as a TV priority sport. From a television perspective the CFL outdraws all other sports, bar the NHL. Money wise, it makes sense for MLSE to bring the Argos into the fold. Granted TFC fans will object to having to share the stadium, which they consider theirs--but it isn't theirs, it belongs to the city. The Argos will be the high profile team when they are housed at BMO and this will help with all concerned. It comes down to money--MLSE needs govt money to expand BMO and Bell/TSN need a vibrant Argos as part of the CFL to attract advertising revenue. Should be a done deal.

[Neely2005]

BMO is owned by Toronto and run by MLSE MLSE is owned in part by Bell which owns TSN. Now that Rogers has NHL rights for 12 years, Bell/TSN must have a thriving CFL as a TV priority sport. From a television perspective the CFL outdraws all other sports, bar the NHL. Money wise, it makes sense for MLSE to bring the Argos into the fold. Granted TFC fans will object to having to share the stadium, which they consider theirs--but it isn't theirs, it belongs to the city. The Argos will be the high profile team when they are housed at BMO and this will help with all concerned. It comes down to money--MLSE needs govt money to expand BMO and Bell/TSN need a vibrant Argos as part of the CFL to attract advertising revenue. Should be a done deal.

You're forgetting one important thing. Rogers is also a part owner of MLSE. And like you said they are heavily invested in the NHL and the Blue Jays. Why would Rogers / Sportsnet want to help out their biggest competition in Bell / TSN?

[T-Bone]

You're forgetting one important thing. Rogers is also a part owner of MLSE. And like you said they are heavily invested in the NHL and the Blue Jays. Why would Rogers / Sportsnet want to help out their biggest competition in Bell / TSN?
You are aware that Rogers wants the Argos out of the Rogers Centre, right? If MLSE buys them and moves them out it's a win/win situation for both parties involved. It's obvious your hatred for MLSE is blinding your judgment.

[Mulder]

You are aware that Rogers wants the Argos out of the Rogers Centre, right? If MLSE buys them and moves them out it's a win/win situation for both parties involved. It's obvious your hatred for MLSE is blinding your judgment.

And sniffing grass at BMO field is blinding yours.

:P

[T-Bone]

And sniffing grass at BMO field is blinding yours.

:P
How so? Having concerns over the Argos moving in to BMO Field makes me blind?

[Mulder]

How so? Having concerns over the Argos moving in to BMO Field makes me blind?

No sniffing grass does.

[Will]

You're forgetting one important thing. Rogers is also a part owner of MLSE. And like you said they are heavily invested in the NHL and the Blue Jays. Why would Rogers / Sportsnet want to help out their biggest competition in Bell / TSN?

Because Bell/TSN also owns a piece of MLSE.

[Neely2005]

You are aware that Rogers wants the Argos out of the Rogers Centre, right? If MLSE buys them and moves them out it's a win/win situation for both parties involved. It's obvious your hatred for MLSE is blinding your judgment.

Yes I am aware. I'm also aware that Rogers as part owner of MLSE is not going to vote in favour of anything that helps it's biggest competitor in Bell.

Rogers biggest competitor in every division of it's business is Bell. TSN is also owned by Bell. Rogers has Sportsnet, an exclusive contract with the NHL and the Blue Jays. Bell has TSN and an exclusive contract with the CFL and NFL.

These two companies are fierce competitors who go head to head in every single aspect of their business. They are not going to do anything to help each other out.

I don't hate MLSE, I just think that they're completely incompetent when it comes to On Field / Court / Ice performance and I don't want them anywhere near the Argonauts. Look at their teams, leafs no cup since 1967, haven't made the finals since 1967 (6 team league) and had the longest playoff drought of any NHL team until they finally made the playoffs last season in a shortened season. TFC hasn't made the playoffs in it's 8 year existence and is the only MLS team that has done that. The Raptors have won 1 playoff series in their 19 year existence. Do we really want these clowns running our Argonauts?

And then on top of that we keep hearing how MLSE really wants an NFL team. What happens to the Argonauts if MLSE owns them and they do get an NFL team? Best case scenario they do the bare minimum to keep them alive well concentrating on their shiny new NFL team.


Because Bell/TSN also owns a piece of MLSE.

Yeah Rogers and Bell equally own 75% of MLSE so they cancel each other out and it comes down to NFL lover Larry Tanenbaum and his 25%.

[Mulder]

"Not only that, it would seem a strangely accommodating decision just to squeeze in nine or ten dates per year of minor league football.'

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2014/01/02/more-talk-of-football-at-bmo-field/

Hope the email address you signed up for isn't your personal or work one.

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?2346-New-Stadium-Locations&p=41378&viewfull=1#post41378

[T-Bone]

Yeah Rogers and Bell equally own 75% of MLSE so they cancel each other out and it comes down to NFL lover Larry Tanenbaum and his 25%.

Since both Rogers and Bell are equal majority owners of MLSE it is only beneficial to both of them that MLSE is making money. Why would MLSE buy the Argos only to kill them as you have implied before? It makes no sense. If they buy them they are going to do everything to profit from them. If they don't want to do that all they have to do is not buy them and evict them from Rogers Centre to hurt them in a big way. I think it's obvious by now that Rogers/Bell/MLSE see a possibility for money to be made. Having MLSE buy the Argos helps all three parties interests. Rogers gets them out of Rogers Centre. Bell wants the Argos because it only helps them with their TSN/CFL deal, and MLSE will profit on them along with getting BMO Field upgraded which will generate more revenue for them with future events like the Winter Classic etc. I can't argue with you about MLSE teams playing records but what would you prefer? Having the Argos be in position were they are financially sound and with potential to grow? Or have things carry on the way they have been? Braley understandably wants to sell both the Argos and BC as he is not getting younger. I'm thankful for Braley stepping in and taking care of the Argos when no one else would. Unfortunately though from what is sounds like he is just covering the bills and not spending a whole lot of extra money which is not going to help growth of the Argos brand etc. We are going to be homeless in 5 years if we don't find an alternative and outside of BMO Field there isn't anything really coming together from the looks of things. If it's a matter of the Argos existing vs. not existing I'll take the MLSE deal. If MLSE wants an NFL team, I'm sure the NFL would rather award a team to owners that have shown they can successfully run a football vs. owners that bought one to kill it.

[argotom]

I do hate MLSE and for everything they stand for.
However and since Bell is now an equal owner, you would think that they would have the stones and the voting rights to tell that idiot Liewueke to shut up about the NFL as this ultimately is hurting their soon to be biggest remaining tv brand, the CFL.

[paulwoods13]

I don't hate MLSE, I just think that they're completely incompetent when it comes to On Field / Court / Ice performance and I don't want them anywhere near the Argonauts. Look at their teams, leafs no cup since 1967, haven't made the finals since 1967 (6 team league) and had the longest playoff drought of any NHL team until they finally made the playoffs last season in a shortened season. TFC hasn't made the playoffs in it's 8 year existence and is the only MLS team that has done that. The Raptors have won 1 playoff series in their 19 year existence. Do we really want these clowns running our Argonauts?

How great have the Argo owners been over the years? Harry Ornest was a tightwad (with a horrendous sense of design) yet we almost got to the Grey Cup with him. McNall et al were doing it with other people's money, as it turned out, yet we won the GC with them. C and S were doing it with other people's money, as it turned out, yet we won the GC with them. Braley, despite the vitriol he gets from a couple of idiots on the cfl.ca forums, has for the most part been a decent owner, but some of the others sure haven't. Yet we have won five Grey Cups since 1991. How well MLSE has done with its other teams is irrelevant, IMO. This is a nine-team league where it is much easier to win than the NHL or NBA. I don't believe for a second that if MLSE owned the Argos, we'd suddenly be doomed to become a perpetual loser.


What happens to the Argonauts if MLSE owns them and they do get an NFL team? Best case scenario they do the bare minimum to keep them alive well concentrating on their shiny new NFL team.

MLSE is all about making profit. If they own the Argos and somehow get an NFL team (the latter is highly unlikely but not entirely out of the question), they will run both to make profits. The way to make a profit with the Argos, IMO, is to get them into a great facility with good dates and an accessible location, have them be successful on the field and promote them as an affordable niche product. If they also made some NFL ticket buyers pony up for Argo tickets or otherwise subsidize the CFL team, that would be fine with me.

[Tau Ceti]

If they also made some NFL ticket buyers pony up for Argo tickets or otherwise subsidize the CFL team, that would be fine with me.

Agreed. The NFL in Toronto gets more unlikely by the day but if it does happen the Argos would become Football Jr. under the MLSE umbrella with cross-selling of tickets, gear, etc. It wouldn't be such a terrible outcome. Other NFL owners might look askance at one team potentially having a free farm team but rules could be put in place regarding player transfer.

Speaking of profits the Argos aren't making any, which I think everyone moaning about MLSE needs to remember. The team hasn't been profitable in more than two decades. We don't need another well intentioned but ill-equipped multi-millionaire (and there maybe none of those left anyway) but an organization capable of creating efficiencies, doing proper marketing, and absorbing losses in lean years. With the TSN deal and MLSE ownership I don't see why the Argos couldn't be in the black a few million most of the time. That also wouldn't be such a terrible outcome.

[AngeloV]

These two companies are fierce competitors who go head to head in every single aspect of their business. They are not going to do anything to help each other out.



Right. I can't see them teaming up to do anything...except for maybe teaming up to bid on the olympics and teaming up to buy the Leafs, Raptors, TFC....on second thought..nevermind.

[ArgoRavi]

Agreed. The NFL in Toronto gets more unlikely by the day but if it does happen the Argos would become Football Jr. under the MLSE umbrella with cross-selling of tickets, gear, etc. It wouldn't be such a terrible outcome. Other NFL owners might look askance at one team potentially having a free farm team but rules could be put in place regarding player transfer.

Speaking of profits the Argos aren't making any, which I think everyone moaning about MLSE needs to remember. The team hasn't been profitable in more than two decades. We don't need another well intentioned but ill-equipped multi-millionaire (and there maybe none of those left anyway) but an organization capable of creating efficiencies, doing proper marketing, and absorbing losses in lean years. With the TSN deal and MLSE ownership I don't see why the Argos couldn't be in the black a few million most of the time. That also wouldn't be such a terrible outcome.

The new TV contract with TSN which kicks in this year must make the Argos more attractive to a potential buyer like MLSE. I don't think that they are far from being in the black and I agree that MLSE should be able to put them there.

[mac_davy]

MLSE is all about making profit. If they own the Argos and somehow get an NFL team (the latter is highly unlikely but not entirely out of the question), they will run both to make profits. The way to make a profit with the Argos, IMO, is to get them into a great facility with good dates and an accessible location, have them be successful on the field and promote them as an affordable niche product. If they also made some NFL ticket buyers pony up for Argo tickets or otherwise subsidize the CFL team, that would be fine with me.

"Niche product" are you kidding, have you seen the TV ratings, your realize its close to hockey night in Canada numbers. The whole MLSE wants the Argos to get an NFL team is made up media garbage, MLSE is buying the Argos for the TV ratings and to get subsidizing to renovate BMO, you don't think they realize with those TV numbers, properly handled and marketed the Argos will be a very profitable franchise, actually the most profitable. The NFL in Toronto is done, and the CFL isn't niche.

[paulwoods13]

"Niche product" are you kidding, have you seen the TV ratings, your realize its close to hockey night in Canada numbers. The whole MLSE wants the Argos to get an NFL team is made up media garbage, MLSE is buying the Argos for the TV ratings and to get subsidizing to renovate BMO, you don't think they realize with those TV numbers, properly handled and marketed the Argos will be a very profitable franchise, actually the most profitable. The NFL in Toronto is done, and the CFL isn't niche.

Umm, yes I realize the Argos can be profitable, and I believe MLSE realizes that as well. I have made that point in a number of posts, including the one you seem to have taken offence to. Calling them a "niche product" is neither insulting nor unfactual. The Argos will never be as big a revenue generator as the Leafs are. They will never attract endless piles of people willing to pay $400 or more a ticket. Over 10 games they will attract something like 250,000-300,000 customers paying reasonably low prices -- enough to make them profitable but not enough to make them anywhere near as big as the Leafs in this town.

I admire your positive attitude, but to suggest that the Argos if properly handled and marketed would be "the most profitable" franchise in the CFL strikes me as a tad optimistic. Much as I wish it were otherwise, I don't believe there will ever be anything resembling Rider Nation in this market, and the cost of doing business in Toronto further cuts into the potential bottom line. As for the NFL in Toronto being done, I'm sure everyone on this forum hopes you are correct, but it's way too early to assume the truth of such a claim.

[Rich]

Umm, yes I realize the Argos can be profitable, and I believe MLSE realizes that as well. I have made that point in a number of posts, including the one you seem to have taken offence to. Calling them a "niche product" is neither insulting nor unfactual. The Argos will never be as big a revenue generator as the Leafs are. They will never attract endless piles of people willing to pay $400 or more a ticket. Over 10 games they will attract something like 250,000-300,000 customers paying reasonably low prices -- enough to make them profitable but not enough to make them anywhere near as big as the Leafs in this town.

I admire your positive attitude, but to suggest that the Argos if properly handled and marketed would be "the most profitable" franchise in the CFL strikes me as a tad optimistic. Much as I wish it were otherwise, I don't believe there will ever be anything resembling Rider Nation in this market, and the cost of doing business in Toronto further cuts into the potential bottom line. As for the NFL in Toronto being done, I'm sure everyone on this forum hopes you are correct, but it's way too early to assume the truth of such a claim.

I understand you're trying to be the voice of reason here, but i think you're leaning a tad pessimistic.

It is entirely possible MLSE ownership will bring increased public interest in Argos. It is entirely possible MLSE marketing will bring in more Argo ticket sales gradually over time. It is entirely possible the Argos will get a huge bump from playing in totally refurbished hot-ticket BMO.

Therefore it is entirely possible the Argos could be drawing 38-40,000 fans by 2017. So here's my question. Are they still niche if they are drawing 38k?


an organization capable of creating efficiencies, doing proper marketing, and absorbing losses in lean years.

There wouldn't be any losses to absorb if they were marketed properly. We've been saying this for 20 years.

[paulwoods13]

I understand you're trying to be the voice of reason here, but i think you're leaning a tad pessimistic.

It is entirely possible MLSE ownership will bring increased public interest in Argos. It is entirely possible MLSE marketing will bring in more Argo ticket sales gradually over time. It is entirely possible the Argos will get a huge bump from playing in totally refurbished hot-ticket BMO.

Therefore it is entirely possible the Argos could be drawing 38-40,000 fans by 2017. So here's my question. Are they still niche if they are drawing 38k?

I hope you are correct. The equation would have to include ticket prices as well as attendance so I can't really say, but I think my point is that with 10 games a year, relatively low ticket prices and a vast segment of the population that pays no attention to them, they would have to be considered as filling a specific niche. Arguably the only team in Toronto, now and probably in the future, that isn't niche is the Leafs. Certainly the Jays have gone from mainstream 20 years ago to niche now, and the Raptors are far from mainstream.

[Neely2005]

Right. I can't see them teaming up to do anything...except for maybe teaming up to bid on the olympics and teaming up to buy the Leafs, Raptors, TFC....on second thought..nevermind.

Yeah the Olympic experiment worked so well that they didn't repeat it. As to MLSE they've already been at odds with each other. Bell wanted to fire Brian Burke and Rogers wanted to keep him. Don't be surprised if one buys the other out.

[AngeloV]

Yeah the Olympic experiment worked so well that they didn't repeat it. As to MLSE they've already been at odds with each other. Bell wanted to fire Brian Burke and Rogers wanted to keep him. Don't be surprised if one buys the other out.

The Olyimpic thing wasn't an experiment. They wanted and won the rights to the Olympics in Canada. No other Olympic bid means nearly as much to Canadian TV.

My point being that they have and continue to work together on certain ventures. The way you described it implied that they wouldn't have anything to do with each other whatsoever. At least I provided facts on times they did work together. You on the other had present nothing but your personal theories. Sorry Dude, but the BS meter rises higher with pretty well every post you make.

[Neely2005]

The Olyimpic thing wasn't an experiment. They wanted and won the rights to the Olympics in Canada. No other Olympic bid means nearly as much to Canadian TV.

My point being that they have and continue to work together on certain ventures. The way you described it implied that they wouldn't have anything to do with each other whatsoever. At least I provided facts on times they did work together. You on the other had present nothing but your personal theories. Sorry Dude, but the BS meter rises higher with pretty well every post you make.

I presented facts in a professional manner. You on the other hand chose to take the low road and make it personal.

[AngeloV]

I presented facts in a professional manner. You on the other hand chose to take the low road and make it personal.

No, you presented personal theories. There was nothing factual about what you presented.

[Neely2005]

No, you presented personal theories. There was nothing factual about what you presented.

Fact Rogers and Bell are each others biggest competitors across almost every line of their business.

Fact Sportsnet (Rogers) is TSN's (Bell) biggest competitor.

Fact Rogers has invested heavily in the NHL and the Blue Jays. Bell has invested heavily in the NFL and the CFL.

Fact they're already having disagreements at MLSE as Bell wanted to fire Brian Burke and Rogers wanted to keep him.

On second thought nevermind...

[T-Bone]

Fact Rogers and Bell are each others biggest competitors across almost every line of their business.

Fact Sportsnet (Rogers) is TSN's (Bell) biggest competitor.

Fact Rogers has invested heavily in the NHL and the Blue Jays. Bell has invested heavily in the NFL and the CFL.

Fact they're already having disagreements at MLSE as Bell wanted to fire Brian Burke and Rogers wanted to keep him.

On second thought nevermind...

Reality: Rogers and Bell don't really compete as they both have a pretty much equal share of the market place. Also I wasn't aware that Bell wanting to fire Brian Burke and Rogers wanting to keep him was a fact. You may want to read this (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/top-10-conspiracy-theories-brian-burke-firing-toronto-182337429--nhl.html). From what I've read Bell and Rogers are pretty hands off when it comes to MLSE running their teams.

[Neely2005]

Reality: Rogers and Bell don't really compete as they both have a pretty much equal share of the market place. Also I wasn't aware that Bell wanting to fire Brian Burke and Rogers wanting to keep him was a fact. You may want to read this (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/top-10-conspiracy-theories-brian-burke-firing-toronto-182337429--nhl.html). From what I've read Bell and Rogers are pretty hands off when it comes to MLSE running their teams.

"Burke got the axe Wednesday morning because Bell boss George Cope, after months of campaigning for Burke’s dismissal, finally wore out the Rogers suits and Larry Tanenbaum. The deal is that Rogers and Bell will vote as a bloc on all matters, and Cope is the lead actor in this stage play. It took him a while but he got his way and Rogers had to roll with the tide."

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2013/01/10/brian_burke_fired_decision_by_toronto_maple_leafs_ new_suits_lacked_class_cox.bb.html

[T-Bone]

"Burke got the axe Wednesday morning because Bell boss George Cope, after months of campaigning for Burke’s dismissal, finally wore out the Rogers suits and Larry Tanenbaum. The deal is that Rogers and Bell will vote as a bloc on all matters, and Cope is the lead actor in this stage play. It took him a while but he got his way and Rogers had to roll with the tide."

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2013/01/10/brian_burke_fired_decision_by_toronto_maple_leafs_ new_suits_lacked_class_cox.bb.html
Ok. Regardless, both Rogers and Bell want the Leafs as well as the other teams they own under MLSE to be profitable. They haven't set out to destroy any of them so your fear mongering BS about the Argos getting the guillotine if MLSE buys them is unwarranted. Outside of Burke are there any other things Bell and Rogers have interfered in MLSE business? Like I said from what I've read they are pretty hands off. I'm sure they're more concerned with things like content for their channels as well as cross marketing etc. Also like I said:


Reality: Rogers and Bell don't really compete as they both have a pretty much equal share of the market place.

[rdavies]

Leiweke soothes TFC fan worries over BMO expansion (http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/toronto-fc-bmo-field-argos-tim-leiweke-cfl-mls/)
John Molinaro January 9, 2014

Like a lot of Toronto FC fans, Phil Tobin feels somewhat out of the loop.

Tobin is president of the Red Patch Boys, one of TFC’s biggest and best-known supporters groups. He’s concerned about the possibility of the CFL’s Toronto Argonauts moving into Toronto FC’s home at BMO Field.

Tobin and other TFC season-ticket holders have been repeatedly and publically assured by Tim Leiweke, president of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, that any potential modifications to BMO Field to accommodate the Argonauts or turn the soccer specific stadium into a multi-purpose facility won’t take place without MLSE first consulting them.

So imagine Tobin’s surprise last week when a Sportsnet report included confirmation from Leiweke that BMO Field, which has been TFC’s home since 2007, might undergo a major renovation and expansion in order to host a future edition of the NHL’s Winter Classic and CFL’s Grey Cup.

Another Sportsnet report cited CFL sources who said Argos executives hoped a scenario would unfold where MLSE would purchase the franchise, a move that could very well lead to the gridiron team moving into BMO Field on a full-time basis.

SUPPORTERS’ FEARS

Tobin, a 39-year-old telecom technician who calls Toronto home, has served as Red Patch Boys president since 2010. He’s feels very confident in speaking for the majority of his membership when he says Leiweke and MLSE are sending mixed messages.

“We talk to Tim and MLSE people at town hall meetings and we engage them about these issues, and they’re promising before they do anything that they’re going to talk to us,” Tobin told Sportsnet.

“But it’s frustrating because then you open up the newspaper or see website articles talking about Winter Classics, the Argos moving in, stadium expansion…. It’s every single point contradicting another one they’ve made and it’s frustrating.”

Maintaining the soccer aesthetics of BMO Field, a soccer-specific stadium built for the Reds prior to their first Major League Soccer season in 2007, is a key issue for Tobin and thousands of other loyal TFC supporters.

BMO Field’s present configurations don’t allow for Canadian football because of the dimensions of the field and stadium. If the Argos were to move in, the stands would have to be moved back—unless retractable stands were used—putting TFC fans further away from the action, and resulting in BMO Field losing its sense of being what fans consider a proper soccer stadium.

Then there’s the issue of the football lines on the field, which would visibly detract from the stadium’s “soccer vibe.” Also, BMO Field features natural grass, but supporters fear an artificial surface would likely have to be installed to accommodate the Argos. Again, that’s not ideal for soccer.

Tobin argues that putting in an artificial surface at BMO Field, which featured FieldTurf up until 2010, would make it increasingly more difficult for TFC to sign top players, especially those from overseas who are used to playing on grass.

“You’re not going to get a Jermain Defoe without grass,” Tobin said, referring to the Tottenham and England star that TFC will officially unveil on Monday.

The Argonauts’ present lease with Rogers Centre expires in 2017, although it has an opt-out clause that could theoretically allow them to move into BMO Field. But as far as the Red Patch Boys are concerned, the bottom line is this: BMO Field should not roll out the welcome mat to the Argos.

“The position for most of our group, and personally, is that the Argos should find their own home venue. BMO isn’t a real solution,” Tobin stated. “It’s not spite for the CFL. We’re really happy the CFL exists. … It’s a great tradition and it’s Canadian, and we’re very proud of it. But the Argos should sort out their stadium issues on their own.”

LEIWEKE RESPONDS

Leiweke states that if BMO Field is renovated to become a multipurpose facility that can accommodate other events such as the CFL that the soccer experience won’t be affected in any way.

“When we talk about Winter Classics or Grey Cups and a 40,000-capacity BMO, that is with a base of 30,000 seats. Our expansion plans for BMO are to go from our current capacity of just under 22,000 to 30,000,” Leiweke told Sportsnet. “We do not think that will ultimately out-paces demand, especially with where we’re trying to go with this team.

“We want to design it in a way so that we can get 40,000 on a temporary basis for big events. Our goal is still to have a 30,000-seat stadium that would protect the intimacy and the environment of the game and the experience, while still projecting some growth for the sport going forward.”

The additional seats will come by adding another level to current structure of the stadium, Leiweke explained.

As far as installing artificial turf, Leiweke maintains that is not going to happen.

“I want to be as clear as I can: We are committed to grass. There is no miscommunication on the grass issue,” Leiweke stated.

Leiweke also went to great lengths to explain that any system or technology implemented to physically slide back the end-zone stands in order to accommodate a CFL-size field would have no effect on soccer.

“One of the reasons why the renovation costs are so high—and I’m talking about a renovation cost that is twice what it cost the build the stadium in the first place—is to create an engineering system within the building to make sure for soccer the configuration remains as it is today,” Leiweke said.

Leiweke later added: “There will be no obstruction of the sidelines, no distances created between the first row and the pitch that are any different than what you see today.… We will have the same ambience and same experience and same atmosphere that they have today but with additional seats.”

What about Tobin’s fears that CFL football would tear up the pitch? Or the gridiron line marks on the soccer pitch?

“There is a way to schedule events so that you never have the two teams playing on the same weekend and you always give the pitch a week to recover. [As for the lines], there are now ways to do lines that are a paint-based concept where the paint literally can be taken right off and you’d never know it was there,” Leiweke assured.

Significantly, Leiweke went to great lengths to say that all of this—the expansion of BMO Field, it becoming a multipurpose facility—is in the exploratory phase. MLSE will use the next six months to consult with engineers, designers and architects to see if the renovation can be achieved without disrupting the soccer experience. He also stressed that MLSE will solicit fans’ opinions throughout the six-month period via town hall meetings and focus groups before any decision is made.

“We clearly don’t have some hidden plan, nor do we have a secret agreement done with the CFL,” Leiweke promised. “We’re committed to making the experience better—not worse—for TFC. That’s why we need six months. Not just for the fan feedback, but also from an engineering and design evaluation as to whether or not we can find a way we can have multiple events on a grass pitch that enhances the environment for soccer. That’s the guideline. That’s our commitment.”

While Leiweke understands why fans are concerned about proposed renovations to BMO Field, he’s bothered by the suggestion that making the stadium into a multipurpose facility suggests he and MLSE are not fully supportive of TFC.

“For those who think that we don’t love soccer and those who think we’re not committed to the right environment or the grass pitch, are you serious? Look what we’re in the middle of doing here. I love soccer. So can we just for once all calm everyone down and let everyone understand that they have no one—and I mean no one—that is a greater fan, a more passionate leader or more utterly, emotionally committed to building a great soccer franchise here than me,” Leiweke said.

“I have made a solemn pledge, and I will stick by it, that we’re going to make the experience better.”

[ArgoRavi]

I wonder if Tobin has had a problem with rugby being played at BMO Field. They must tear up the grass just as much as Canadian football players would.

[argolio]

Sounds to me like Leiweke is telling Tobin and his gang to kindly STFU.

[Ron]

Sounds to me like Leiweke is telling Tobin and his gang to kindly STFU.

He only said they'd discuss it with them. He never said he needed their permission.

[T-Bone]

I wonder if Tobin has had a problem with rugby being played at BMO Field.
Why wonder? Ask him. (http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?35202-Leiweke-and-Tobin-talk-to-Sportsnet-on-BMO-expansion-Argos-at-BMO)

[argotom]

He only said they'd discuss it with them. He never said he needed their permission.


But it's not their stadium, we the taxpayers own it as MLSE only manages it.
Unless we sold the farm which I expect may well have occurred, you would think the City would have to be involved?

[T-Bone]

But it's not their stadium, we the taxpayers own it as MLSE only manages it.
Unless we sold the farm which I expect may well have occurred, you would think the City would have to be involved?
We the taxpayers don't own BMO Field. The city owns BMO Field and any changes have to be cleared by both the Exhibition Place board and city council.

[marcwagz]

I wouldn't be terrily upset if this is true, BMO is closer to my house.
But it seems like a backwards move. Not like MLSE is known for good ownership.
raptors are doing good now though.

[Invader]

Leiweke said last Fall they were approached by city council to investigate accommodating the Argos at BMO. He said MLSE didn't own the stadium and as "good partners" they'd have one of the world's top stadium construction companies check into it.

Rogers also said last year they wouldn't "turf" the Argos out of RC if they had no place else to play, and they would extend the Argo lease beyond the existing term if necessary.

While the media seems to delight with the prospect the Argos are being "kicked out" or folding, the fact is if financing can be arranged the Argos will play at a renovated BMO (with TFC fans, Soccer Canada or the MLS having no say in the decision.)

I also wouldn't underestimate the ability and desire of Mr. Braley and the Argos to construct their own football stadium if required, similar to TD Place in Ottawa, which will ensure the financial viability of the team for years to come.

The suggestion that Mr. Braley is asking $20 million for the Argos and is demanding "first rights" to reacquire the team should MLSE decide to sell, seem accurate. The league also needs the ability to "take over" the team from MLSE, if minimum standards of ownership are not met.

[Ron]

But it's not their stadium, we the taxpayers own it as MLSE only manages it.
Unless we sold the farm which I expect may well have occurred, you would think the City would have to be involved?

It's so obvious the city is involved that it without saying.

[argotom]

We the taxpayers don't own BMO Field. The city owns BMO Field and any changes have to be cleared by both the Exhibition Place board and city council.

Excuse me, the city is us the taxpayers.

[ArgoZ]

Excuse me, the city is us the taxpayers.

LOL, keep believing that, if it makes you feel better when you pay, but tax payers do not own anything that their money is used for. If this false sense of entitled ownership was true, you would have to decide what to do with your assets before you moved to a different city.

[ArgoZ]

Leiweke could rest the fears of TFC fans by outright saying that MLSE is not interested in the Argos and they are not coming to BMO. Why doesn't he? Well most of us know the answer. After reading many of his latest comments and looking at TFC's new direction, I am finally convinced that it's only a matter of time before they are the new owners.

[T-Bone]

Leiweke could rest the fears of TFC fans by outright saying that MLSE is not interested in the Argos and they are not coming to BMO. Why doesn't he?
If that were the case, Leiweke couldn't outright say that publicly. Presumably MLSE would still want BMO Field to be renovated just reaming soccer specific which would still have to be approved. The city asked MLSE to look in to renovating BMO Field to accommodate the Argos so it would be a bad move by MLSE to say they have no intention of doing so as it would hurt their chances of getting a soccer specific design approved. There are other ways they can go about making that happen, if that's what they want.


After reading many of his latest comments and looking at TFC's new direction, I am finally convinced that it's only a matter of time before they are the new owners.
Only time will tell but things are defiantly looking like that.

[Ron]

Leiweke could rest the fears of TFC fans by outright saying that MLSE is not interested in the Argos and they are not coming to BMO. Why doesn't he? Well most of us know the answer. After reading many of his latest comments and looking at TFC's new direction, I am finally convinced that it's only a matter of time before they are the new owners.

Because MLSE is a business. They are right now due dilling the whole thing. Telling fans (TFC or CFL) anything ain't happening. One day we'll get an announcement. Either they bought them or not. Until then MLSE will toss out a few carrots here and there to stifle the fan nattering that they have little interest in. They haven't told TFC fans squat ... and they haven't told CFL fans squat either.

[bluto]

Because MLSE is a business. They are right now due dilling the whole thing. Telling fans (TFC or CFL) anything ain't happening. One day we'll get an announcement. Either they bought them or not. Until then MLSE will toss out a few carrots here and there to stifle the fan nattering that they have little interest in. They haven't told TFC fans squat ... and they haven't told CFL fans squat either.

they tossed two pretty big ones to the TFC supporters today.