Argo Sale

[Mulder]

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=442375

[Mulder]

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=442375

I love the quote. "While the board couldn't agree on the matter"

Lets see
http://www.mlse.com/inside_mlse/board_of_directors.aspx

5 members on the board.

Larry (rumored to buy), Larry's ally Dale 2 Bell reps and 1 Rogers rep.

Bell already has a steak in CFL & Argos. I wonder which "Board Member" Disagreed with the purchase.

Yup. The Rogers one!

[Will]

I know MLSE isn't the optimal owner for many on here, but if it's gotta be it's gotta be.

[Brian45]

Just this past summer I wrote on this board that MLSE would own this team and they would play at BMO Field within 2 seasons and I was essentially laughed at. Apologies accepted anytime lol. I look forward to having the same seats for TFC and Argos seasons tickets!

[ArgoGabe22]

Just this past summer I wrote on this board that MLSE would own this team and they would play at BMO Field within 2 seasons and I was essentially laughed at. Apologies accepted anytime lol. I look forward to having the same seats for TFC and Argos seasons tickets!

Where? All I remember is you mentioning Lamport but it's all good.

[paulwoods13]

Just this past summer I wrote on this board that MLSE would own this team and they would play at BMO Field within 2 seasons and I was essentially laughed at. Apologies accepted anytime lol. I look forward to having the same seats for TFC and Argos seasons tickets!

Did you write it under a different username? Because you appear to have posted only twice under this name and your other post is about Lamport Stadium:

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?1972-Chris-Rudge-on-TSN-Drive-with-Dave-Naylor-amp-Steve-Milton&p=31236#post31236

Maybe we should hold off on the apologies?

[Mulder]

Where? All I remember is you mentioning Lamport but it's all good.

Possibility during the 2011 season when we were still FOA.

[ArgoRavi]

I love the quote. "While the board couldn't agree on the matter"

Lets see
http://www.mlse.com/inside_mlse/board_of_directors.aspx

5 members on the board.

Larry (rumored to buy), Larry's ally Dale 2 Bell reps and 1 Rogers rep.

Bell already has a steak in CFL & Argos. I wonder which "Board Member" Disagreed with the purchase.

Yup. The Rogers one!

LOL, that was my conclusion too and an easy one to come to. Wouldn't majority rule though if MLSE does want to proceed with the purchase?

[Mulder]

LOL, that was my conclusion too and an easy one to come to. Wouldn't majority rule though if MLSE does want to proceed with the purchase?

Apparently Bell and Rogers vote as a block.

"There will be an interesting twist in how power is shared on the new board of directors. Bell and Rogers agreed that their four votes on the six-person board will always vote as one, which will prevent any deadlocks"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/mlse-board-expected-to-undergo-major-change-after-sale-is-finalized/article4426208/

Which still doesn't mean Bell said no, it means Bell and Rogers couldn't come to a collective yes, so by default it's a no from them.

[paulwoods13]

LOL, that was my conclusion too and an easy one to come to. Wouldn't majority rule though if MLSE does want to proceed with the purchase?

Rogers and Bell each hold 37.5% of MLSE so at least in theory Rogers can be outvoted. However, I don't think the specific voting rules of the partnership have ever been reported publicly. There may be veto rights, etc.


Apparently Bell and Rogers vote as a block.

"There will be an interesting twist in how power is shared on the new board of directors. Bell and Rogers agreed that their four votes on the six-person board will always vote as one, which will prevent any deadlocks"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/mlse-board-expected-to-undergo-major-change-after-sale-is-finalized/article4426208/
Which still doesn't mean Bell said no, it means Bell and Rogers couldn't come to a collective yes, so by default it's a no from them.



That's a good find, Mulder. I'd be more inclined to believe the story if it was reported by a business reporter rather than by a hockey reporter, and especially if there was any attribution in the story, but it is interesting for sure.

[Neely2005]

I know MLSE isn't the optimal owner for many on here, but if it's gotta be it's gotta be.

Ugh. MLSE & BMO Field. The worst of everything.

:-(

[Treblecharger1]

What will happen here is "Larry" will purchase the team and then have MLSE manage the franchise on behalf of himself.

[argotom]

The jury is definitely out on this potential move.
My vote is against it and regardless of whether there is/are other suitors.


Ugh. MLSE & BMO Field. The worst of everything.

:-(

Absolutely 100%.

[Shatto]

The agreement of Bell and Rogers to vote as together might come under some strain, now that Rogers has complete ownership of NHL broadcasting. Rogers, the organization that imported the Bills series to Toronto, has no vested interest in Argos/CFL success but Bell, owner of TSN does. Bell/TSN, has a large vested interest in the continued success of the CFL, as the CFL is now their leading sports progamming (TV ratings) It is to Bell's advantage as well as the Argos/CFL's to have MLSE own and operate the Argos. I expect the sale to be completed soon, as it is to everone's advantage (excluding Rogers)

[Invader]

Apparently Bell and Rogers vote as a block.

"There will be an interesting twist in how power is shared on the new board of directors. Bell and Rogers agreed that their four votes on the six-person board will always vote as one, which will prevent any deadlocks"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/mlse-board-expected-to-undergo-major-change-after-sale-is-finalized/article4426208/

Which still doesn't mean Bell said no, it means Bell and Rogers couldn't come to a collective yes, so by default it's a no from them.
I guess Rogers and Bell have to agree on the Argos purchase or it doesn't happen. With Tannenbaum as the Argo owner, who knows what would happen? There were rumours in the past that Tannenbaum didn't like the Argos (after they backed out of York stadium) and he was in cahoots with the Senators owner who thought the CFL was a dying league. Having the Argos in his back pocket might sooth the NFL who are so worried a Toronto NFL franchise might hurt the CFL.

More importantly, moving the Argos to BMO will help secure government funding for its expansion.

Since we're speculating, how about Tannenbaum's "go-to golf buddy" Bon Jovi as a prospective Argos owner? Jon said he wants to own a football team and did co-own an AFL team before that league went bankrupt. The Argos would seem like a perfect opportunity? A "turn-key" football team, in continuous operation for 143 years, moving into a newly-renovated BMO stadium with natural grass, with the league just signing a monster TV contract "more than doubling" the revenue...which the CFL commissioner should put the Argos into the black. A perfect match?

The Argos are just sitting there for a savvy operator with connections to "flip the switch" and turn this team into an economic profit centre...with exponential growth in franchise value.

[paulwoods13]

Again, can we all please keep in mind that the story claiming Bell and Rogers would always vote together

(a) was written by a hockey reporter (David Shoalts), not a business reporter,
(b) was written before the Rogers-Bell deal even closed and
(c) was entirely based on sources who are neither named nor given any description that might give the report credence.

It is entirely possible, and perhaps even probable, that whatever agreement Bell and Rogers reached on how they would vote their respective shares has a lot more nuance and detail than "we will always vote the same way."

[Downtownfan]

You know, despite all the "buying the Argos as a chip to get the NFL" talk, I really do think that is pie- in the sky. I think the NFL is playing Toronto (again).

Sure, say old man Wilson passes on in the next three or five years. Anybody in Toronto who wants to buy the Bills (there is NO expansion on the horizon, and Toronto is now Bills territory) would have to: come up with about $1 billion US (with a Canadian dollar dropping; Tannenbaum and/or E. Rogers would have to sell their stakes in MLSE/Rogers) to beat out any other bidder from Buffalo or the US; get past the NFL itself (which has a veto on potential owners); get past Senator Schumer and Governor Cuomo (who wants to run for president in 2016); get past the US TV networks (which make no money off this); pay a $400 million exit fee from a newly renovated RW Stadium; build a stadium (Rogers Centre won't cut it-- Goddell himself said Toronto has "stadium issues"); get past a really pissed off WNY fan base, and then drop a team on Toronto, a city that has shown really no appetite for NFL football when it comes down to it.

This is pretty damn hard to overcome-- but in the meantime, MLSE/Tannenbaum have to be "good owners" to prove to the NFL that they are ready-- the Argos cannot be neglected, as it would defeat the rationale for having the team in the first place. I think we will be fine with MLSE or Tannenbaum, and before you know it, the Argos will be the only other profitable MLSE franchise in the stable.

This is going to happen fairly soon, looks like, and we will finally have stable ownership for a long time. There may be some spin ("we had to buy the Argos," "its how we get an NFL team," "this is charity") but the reality will be that we will be insulated from all kinds of media/CFL haters attacks by being part of MLSE. And we will have a newish stadium. And we will have a new TV deal. Things are looking up.

[ArgoRavi]

You know, despite all the "buying the Argos as a chip to get the NFL" talk, I really do think that is pie- in the sky. I think the NFL is playing Toronto (again).

Sure, say old man Wilson passes on in the next three or five years. Anybody in Toronto who wants to buy the Bills (there is NO expansion on the horizon, and Toronto is now Bills territory) would have to: come up with about $1 billion US (with a Canadian dollar dropping; Tannenbaum and/or E. Rogers would have to sell their stakes in MLSE/Rogers) to beat out any other bidder from Buffalo or the US; get past the NFL itself (which has a veto on potential owners); get past Senator Schumer and Governor Cuomo (who wants to run for president in 2016); get past the US TV networks (which make no money off this); pay a $400 million exit fee from a newly renovated RW Stadium; build a stadium (Rogers Centre won't cut it-- Goddell himself said Toronto has "stadium issues"); get past a really pissed off WNY fan base, and then drop a team on Toronto, a city that has shown really no appetite for NFL football when it comes down to it.

This is pretty damn hard to overcome-- but in the meantime, MLSE/Tannenbaum have to be "good owners" to prove to the NFL that they are ready-- the Argos cannot be neglected, as it would defeat the rationale for having the team in the first place. I think we will be fine with MLSE or Tannenbaum, and before you know it, the Argos will be the only other profitable MLSE franchise in the stable.

This is going to happen fairly soon, looks like, and we will finally have stable ownership for a long time. There may be some spin ("we had to buy the Argos," "its how we get an NFL team," "this is charity") but the reality will be that we will be insulated from all kinds of media/CFL haters attacks by being part of MLSE. And we will have a newish stadium. And we will have a new TV deal. Things are looking up.

Well said! BTW, as I was watching a little of the NHL on NBC this past Sunday, the thought crossed my mind as to how American networks really want nothing to do with Canadian-based pro sports teams. When was the last time that a Canadian-based NHL team appeared on NBC for a normal regular-season game (not an outdoor game)? When was the last time that the Raptors played on ABC? How about the Blue Jays on FOX? There is no way that the U.S. networks want anything to do with an NFL team in Toronto or anywhere else in Canada which is yet another reason why that will not happen.

[mac_davy]

You know, despite all the "buying the Argos as a chip to get the NFL" talk, I really do think that is pie- in the sky. I think the NFL is playing Toronto (again).

Sure, say old man Wilson passes on in the next three or five years. Anybody in Toronto who wants to buy the Bills (there is NO expansion on the horizon, and Toronto is now Bills territory) would have to: come up with about $1 billion US (with a Canadian dollar dropping; Tannenbaum and/or E. Rogers would have to sell their stakes in MLSE/Rogers) to beat out any other bidder from Buffalo or the US; get past the NFL itself (which has a veto on potential owners); get past Senator Schumer and Governor Cuomo (who wants to run for president in 2016); get past the US TV networks (which make no money off this); pay a $400 million exit fee from a newly renovated RW Stadium; build a stadium (Rogers Centre won't cut it-- Goddell himself said Toronto has "stadium issues"); get past a really pissed off WNY fan base, and then drop a team on Toronto, a city that has shown really no appetite for NFL football when it comes down to it.

This is pretty damn hard to overcome-- but in the meantime, MLSE/Tannenbaum have to be "good owners" to prove to the NFL that they are ready-- the Argos cannot be neglected, as it would defeat the rationale for having the team in the first place. I think we will be fine with MLSE or Tannenbaum, and before you know it, the Argos will be the only other profitable MLSE franchise in the stable.

This is going to happen fairly soon, looks like, and we will finally have stable ownership for a long time. There may be some spin ("we had to buy the Argos," "its how we get an NFL team," "this is charity") but the reality will be that we will be insulated from all kinds of media/CFL haters attacks by being part of MLSE. And we will have a newish stadium. And we will have a new TV deal. Things are looking up.

exactly, The stepping stone to an NFL team is purely media speculation ( it become so fashonable in the toronto media to have a hate on for the CFL ), and should the Argos start generating significant revenue and growth, do you think MLSE or Tannenbaum would want to then gamble billions on an NFL team that would most certainly disrupt that. Bottom line is they are buying the argo for the potential profit, grey cups and govenment kick backs to renovate BMO, they know dam well properly marketed in Toronto the Argos are a cheap cash cow ( one grey cup pays for the team and some, this is why the 2012 grey cups revenue was just posted ), all you have to do is convince the toronto population the CFL is cool again, and MLSE has the media influneces to do this. Dont be suprised if the CLF has already made a deal to MSLE for several grey cups over then next two decades. This all good

[ArgoRavi]

Here is Don Landry's take on the potential sale of the Argos: http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/cfl-55-yard-line/rumours-fly-toronto-argonauts-being-bought-mlse-201641332.html

[Argo57]

Ugh. MLSE & BMO Field. The worst of everything.

:-(

Actually the "worst of everything" is nobody stepping up to purchase this franchise.
As I have stated before at least this puts the franchise on solid financial ground for the first time in decades.
Expect a seriously "kicked up" marketing and merchandizing campaign moving forward. I myself had some initial hesitation regarding this ownership possibility but who can argue (from a business perspective) MLSE's success.
Having said all of this, their on ice-field products have been sadly lacking!!
Hopefully leave the Argonauts management team in place to continue doing their jobs, I think with Jim Barker and his crew the are in good hands.

[Downtownfan]

A few other things:

1. What is missing from this latest discussion is Mr. Braley's role in all this. The man has some pretty big cojones: He is basically triggering this deal by forcing the issue through his pursuit of a stadium, one that MLSE could not ignore (or disbelieve) for fear of losing their sports/entertainment monopoly and potentially creating a regional competitor in the suburbs. Braley has already made two stadium projects already happen (BC and THF), has more money than most people realize (he has given away about $60 million in the last 10 years that we know of, and the figure is probably a lot more-- can you imagine how much money he must have?), and has the sheer stubborness to do this (he answers to no one, unlike Tannenbaum, who has a board to deal with). Then, he turns around and dead-eyes MLSE, probably getting a pretty good deal for himself, and if other rumours posted on this board are correct, protecting the Argos and league by ensuring buy-back rights. Wow. Just wow.

2. The big loser is Rogers, and really the Jays. They totally screwed the pooch on the NFL (who screws up the NFL?), are about to have major egg on their face when the Bills likely pull out of the Toronto series, and lose whatever leverage they had for controlling football in Toronto. Moreover, when the Argos go out of the dome, they have no excuse not to put grass in-- which they claim the want to do, but probably realize is either unrealistic or massively expensive. But their fans are clamoring for it as a panacea for the franchise's problems. The Jays, with the biggest payroll in Canada and a last place finish to show for it, also just lost another 10% with the decline of the dollar. This team must lose immense amounts of money. Though they won the hockey rights, they probably overpaid. Bell/TSN now has money for football and other stuff, and won't lose the regional rights for the Leafs (which is where much of the value in hockey is). It also means less money for the Jays, who are quickly looking like the old maid in the baseall FA season, and won't have much of a compelling story line come the spring to get fans back in the seats.

Ironically, Rogers ends up owing the team they wanted to kill-- which is why they are being so stubborn at the MLSE board. But they will have to give in eventually, as Bell/Tannenbaum will make their own deal to buy the Argos, which would be an even worse outcome for them. Will see how the Argos schedule is after the announcement that MLSE and/or Tannenbaum owns the team.

3. There will be a few stages of media/public reaction to this deal. First, there will be disbelief-- how could they, why would they? Second, there will be false rationalization-- it's only for the NFL, its charity, its because the government made them do it, etc. There will also be outright hatred from quite a few TFC types and other anti-CFLers (which is already percolating if you bother to check out Red Patch Boys). But after a year or two, as the construction stuff gets worked out, there will be a whole new level of awareness of the Argos. It will be things like MLSE signage (even if they don't buy the team and Tannenbaum does, they will be tenants in BMO), apparel at Real Sports, cross-promotion, media, etc. MLSE will have two summer teams and three winter teams, and get close to 150 event days in the city. The Argos will benefit immensely from this association, and the new stadium experience will get "rave reviews" especially since the only comparison is the mausoleum at Rogers Centre (and this comes from someone who has been going to Argos games since 1978). Talk about a positive development.

4. Peddie was just on TSN radio, and while he is an asshat with the same schtick of "Argos don't make money, we didn't buy them" (ignoring changing realities of a new TV deal a revitalized franchise, and the draw of a 30,000 seat outdoor stadium), he did say that Tannenbaum "likes the Argos" and would have bought them in the past. Perhaps, with Tannenbaum as the new face of the franchise, this marks a new day of awareness etc. Maybe, just maybe, Tannenbaum will end up being a really good owner, along with MLSE.

[Ballstothewall]

If this is true, this is the best move for the Argos. MLSE ownership will push the Argos out in front of T.O fans. Imaging things like seeing Argo ads and Argo talk in the media, us Argo fans will be in a stAte of shock. You want leaf season tickets, guess what, now just like TFC and the Raptors, you will have to buy Argo season tickets

[Argo]

Thanks for the link, ArgoRavi, because as it happened, a bit of surfing from there led me to:
http://www.truthinoliveoil.com/blog
which arms one against the massive chronic fraud occurring in the olive oil industry.
While I had heard of this all-too-typical criminality before, I'd become complacent.
(I not only enjoy this oil for its flavour, but also consume it for its multiple significant health benefits. And I hope my fellow Argonauts fans do so as well.)

Ok, now back to the immanent (?) sale of the Argos...


Actually the "worst of everything" is nobody stepping up to purchase this franchise.

It's hard to argue with that statement.


As I have stated before at least this puts the franchise on solid financial ground for the first time in decades.

One would hope so.

[Argo57]

A few other things:

1. What is missing from this latest discussion is Mr. Braley's role in all this. The man has some pretty big cojones: He is basically triggering this deal by forcing the issue through his pursuit of a stadium, one that MLSE could not ignore (or disbelieve) for fear of losing their sports/entertainment monopoly and potentially creating a regional competitor in the suburbs. Braley has already made two stadium projects already happen (BC and THF), has more money than most people realize (he has given away about $60 million in the last 10 years that we know of, and the figure is probably a lot more-- can you imagine how much money he must have?), and has the sheer stubborness to do this (he answers to no one, unlike Tannenbaum, who has a board to deal with). Then, he turns around and dead-eyes MLSE, probably getting a pretty good deal for himself, and if other rumours posted on this board are correct, protecting the Argos and league by ensuring buy-back rights. Wow. Just wow.

2. The big loser is Rogers, and really the Jays. They totally screwed the pooch on the NFL (who screws up the NFL?), are about to have major egg on their face when the Bills likely pull out of the Toronto series, and lose whatever leverage they had for controlling football in Toronto. Moreover, when the Argos go out of the dome, they have no excuse not to put grass in-- which they claim the want to do, but probably realize is either unrealistic or massively expensive. But their fans are clamoring for it as a panacea for the franchise's problems. The Jays, with the biggest payroll in Canada and a last place finish to show for it, also just lost another 10% with the decline of the dollar. This team must lose immense amounts of money. Though they won the hockey rights, they probably overpaid. Bell/TSN now has money for football and other stuff, and won't lose the regional rights for the Leafs (which is where much of the value in hockey is). It also means less money for the Jays, who are quickly looking like the old maid in the baseall FA season, and won't have much of a compelling story line come the spring to get fans back in the seats.

Ironically, Rogers ends up owing the team they wanted to kill-- which is why they are being so stubborn at the MLSE board. But they will have to give in eventually, as Bell/Tannenbaum will make their own deal to buy the Argos, which would be an even worse outcome for them. Will see how the Argos schedule is after the announcement that MLSE and/or Tannenbaum owns the team.

3. There will be a few stages of media/public reaction to this deal. First, there will be disbelief-- how could they, why would they? Second, there will be false rationalization-- it's only for the NFL, its charity, its because the government made them do it, etc. There will also be outright hatred from quite a few TFC types and other anti-CFLers (which is already percolating if you bother to check out Red Patch Boys). But after a year or two, as the construction stuff gets worked out, there will be a whole new level of awareness of the Argos. It will be things like MLSE signage (even if they don't buy the team and Tannenbaum does, they will be tenants in BMO), apparel at Real Sports, cross-promotion, media, etc. MLSE will have two summer teams and three winter teams, and get close to 150 event days in the city. The Argos will benefit immensely from this association, and the new stadium experience will get "rave reviews" especially since the only comparison is the mausoleum at Rogers Centre (and this comes from someone who has been going to Argos games since 1978). Talk about a positive development.

4. Peddie was just on TSN radio, and while he is an asshat with the same schtick of "Argos don't make money, we didn't buy them" (ignoring changing realities of a new TV deal a revitalized franchise, and the draw of a 30,000 seat outdoor stadium), he did say that Tannenbaum "likes the Argos" and would have bought them in the past. Perhaps, with Tannenbaum as the new face of the franchise, this marks a new day of awareness etc. Maybe, just maybe, Tannenbaum will end up being a really good owner, along with MLSE.

Very well stated!!
One question you raised is worth considering.....Why don't Bell and Tannenbaum buy the Argos themselves without Rogers involvement if they simply don't like the team???

[Argo]

The big loser is Rogers, and really the Jays. They totally screwed the pooch on the NFL (who screws up the NFL?), are about to have major egg on their face when the Bills likely pull out of the Toronto series, and lose whatever leverage they had for controlling football in Toronto. Moreover, when the Argos go out of the dome, they have no excuse not to put grass in-- which they claim the want to do, but probably realize is either unrealistic or massively expensive. But their fans are clamoring for it as a panacea for the franchise's problems. The Jays, with the biggest payroll in Canada and a last place finish to show for it, also just lost another 10% with the decline of the dollar. This team must lose immense amounts of money. Though they won the hockey rights, they probably overpaid. Bell/TSN now has money for football and other stuff, and won't lose the regional rights for the Leafs (which is where much of the value in hockey is). It also means less money for the Jays, who are quickly looking like the old maid in the baseall FA season, and won't have much of a compelling story line come the spring to get fans back in the seats.

Ironically, Rogers ends up owing the team they wanted to kill-- which is why they are being so stubborn at the MLSE board. But they will have to give in eventually, as Bell/Tannenbaum will make their own deal to buy the Argos, which would be an even worse outcome for them. Will see how the Argos schedule is after the announcement that MLSE and/or Tannenbaum owns the team.

Gee, that's tough... Rogers... a Guy Cabellero (http://www.festology.com/images/guy-caballero.jpg) monologue on "one of our finest corporations" comes to mind.


Peddie was just on TSN radio, and while he is an asshat

It's hard to argue with that statement.

[Downtownfan]

Very well stated!!
One question you raised is worth considering.....Why don't Bell and Tannenbaum buy the Argos themselves without Rogers involvement if they simply don't like the team???

Well, it is a lot cleaner and easier in terms of ownership (not to mention that the Argos would be outside all the benefits of being a part of MLSE). If it is just Bell/Tannenbaum, the Argos are still outside of the MLSE umbrella for marketing/promotion/head office, etc. But it also hurts Rogers because they miss out on future Argo/Grey Cup profits as a 37.5% owner of the team through MLSE. It makes Rogers the odd man out on the MLSE board, too, in some ways. This is why I think they will eventually cave and agree to the purchase. The Naylor article is a form of not so soft pressure-- Rogers is being portrayed as the obstructionists to a deal that Tim L., Larry T and just about everyone else wants (save for Rogers and die-hard TFC fans).

[gilthethrill]

If MLSE does purchase the Argos, a new practice facility will certainly help ink free agents and perhaps help keep key core players from testing the FA waters. Just so long as the suits stay away and let the current regime do their job, this could really benefit the Double Blue.

[294life]

Argos FC.......shudder.

[argotom]

Still though, MLSE is like the proverbial "wolf in charge of the hen house".

[rdavies]

Leiweke hints MLSE may buy Argonauts, with NFL also in mind (http://www.thestar.com/sports/2014/01/28/leiweke_hints_mlse_may_buy_argonauts_with_eyes_on_ future_nfl_team.html)
MLSE CEO Tim Leiweke gave a wide ranging speech Tuesday, touching on Drake, the CFL, Toronto sports culture and the ‘bloody big deal.’
Zoe McKnight Staff Reporter thestar.com Jan 28 2014

At a candid speech Tuesday night, Tim Leiweke — the MLSE CEO known for the kind of off-the-cuff comments that make communications staff nervous — may have hinted at a future deal between the company he directs and the CFL’s Toronto Argonauts.

Leiweke has said MLSE is interested in paying for an expansion of city-owned BMO Field, and soon, to include a partial roof and more seats.

At the TIFF Bell Lightbox on Tuesday — the same day TSN published a report that talks between MLSE and current Argos owner David Braley were “heating up” — Leiweke said he’d be willing to share the refurbished field with a CFL team.

“We’re going to spend $120 million to build an English Premier (League)-style stadium, with a roof that covers the seats,” Leiweke said.

“Yeah, there are rumours there may be a CFL solution, but we’ll do it in a way you’ll never know there’s a CFL team when you’re there for a soccer game, and you’ll never know there’s a soccer team when you’re there for a CFL game. It’s engineering and we can fix that.”

Later, he said giving football fans a chance to watch games in the new stadium would help not only the CFL, but an eventual push for an NFL team.

“I think giving fans an opportunity to go see an Argos game outdoors in a stadium with a roof that covers the seat, in a 30,000-seat environment, with real grass, is awesome, and it will help turn that franchise around.

“So we’re going to start with that. There’s no way the NFL comes here without the CFL being unbelievably successful first.”

MLSE communications staff declined to comment further Tuesday night, as did the CFL.

Toronto Argos chairman and CEO Chris Rudge said while he couldn’t comment on any deal between the team’s owner and MLSE, he’d be happy to play at BMO Field.

After their Rogers Centre lease runs out in 2017, the team will need a new place to play, and Rudge said he’d be happy to return to Exhibition Place, the Argos’ former home, even as a tenant.

“I’d be delighted to hear someone would like to build us a home,” he said.

“If something more were to happen, that will work itself out,” he said, deferring to Braley and MLSE.

Another tidbit Leiweke let slip — throwing in an “am I going to get in trouble for doing this?” directed at his PR team — was a new program starting next NHL season to give away a “couple hundred” Leafs tickets each regular season game.

The tickets will go to the members of Leafs Nation, those who have never been able to afford the high ticket prices, who will attend a game for the first time as a guest of MLSE.

“We’ve got to introduce a new noise level, a new culture and a whole new generation of fans into that building,” he said.

Other future plans include involving Raptors global ambassador and hip hop megastar Drake in more MLSE business. MLSE wants to create a nightclub at the Air Canada Centre and Drake “might be a partner in that,” Leiweke said.

What it adds up to, he hopes, is the creation of a new culture among MLSE’s sports teams, starting with BMO Field.

“The city deserves it, our fans deserve it. And this is the message we’re sending all of our teams from this point on. We mean business. We want to win championships.”

Professional soccer will be as popular as the NHL in just a decade, Leiweke told the crowd of marketing professionals, which is partly why the company decided to shock the soccer world by spending tens of millions of dollars earlier this month to bring Jermain Defoe and Michael Bradley to TFC.

The deal with American midfielder Bradley, the “heart and soul of U.S. national team,” even came as a surprise to U.S. head coach Jurgen Klinsmann, who had told Leiweke the deal would never happen — in the midst of negotiations and just days before the papers were signed.

[Neely2005]

A few other things:

1. What is missing from this latest discussion is Mr. Braley's role in all this. The man has some pretty big cojones: He is basically triggering this deal by forcing the issue through his pursuit of a stadium, one that MLSE could not ignore (or disbelieve) for fear of losing their sports/entertainment monopoly and potentially creating a regional competitor in the suburbs. Braley has already made two stadium projects already happen (BC and THF), has more money than most people realize (he has given away about $60 million in the last 10 years that we know of, and the figure is probably a lot more-- can you imagine how much money he must have?), and has the sheer stubborness to do this (he answers to no one, unlike Tannenbaum, who has a board to deal with). Then, he turns around and dead-eyes MLSE, probably getting a pretty good deal for himself, and if other rumours posted on this board are correct, protecting the Argos and league by ensuring buy-back rights. Wow. Just wow.

2. The big loser is Rogers, and really the Jays. They totally screwed the pooch on the NFL (who screws up the NFL?), are about to have major egg on their face when the Bills likely pull out of the Toronto series, and lose whatever leverage they had for controlling football in Toronto. Moreover, when the Argos go out of the dome, they have no excuse not to put grass in-- which they claim the want to do, but probably realize is either unrealistic or massively expensive. But their fans are clamoring for it as a panacea for the franchise's problems. The Jays, with the biggest payroll in Canada and a last place finish to show for it, also just lost another 10% with the decline of the dollar. This team must lose immense amounts of money. Though they won the hockey rights, they probably overpaid. Bell/TSN now has money for football and other stuff, and won't lose the regional rights for the Leafs (which is where much of the value in hockey is). It also means less money for the Jays, who are quickly looking like the old maid in the baseall FA season, and won't have much of a compelling story line come the spring to get fans back in the seats.

Ironically, Rogers ends up owing the team they wanted to kill-- which is why they are being so stubborn at the MLSE board. But they will have to give in eventually, as Bell/Tannenbaum will make their own deal to buy the Argos, which would be an even worse outcome for them. Will see how the Argos schedule is after the announcement that MLSE and/or Tannenbaum owns the team.

3. There will be a few stages of media/public reaction to this deal. First, there will be disbelief-- how could they, why would they? Second, there will be false rationalization-- it's only for the NFL, its charity, its because the government made them do it, etc. There will also be outright hatred from quite a few TFC types and other anti-CFLers (which is already percolating if you bother to check out Red Patch Boys). But after a year or two, as the construction stuff gets worked out, there will be a whole new level of awareness of the Argos. It will be things like MLSE signage (even if they don't buy the team and Tannenbaum does, they will be tenants in BMO), apparel at Real Sports, cross-promotion, media, etc. MLSE will have two summer teams and three winter teams, and get close to 150 event days in the city. The Argos will benefit immensely from this association, and the new stadium experience will get "rave reviews" especially since the only comparison is the mausoleum at Rogers Centre (and this comes from someone who has been going to Argos games since 1978). Talk about a positive development.

4. Peddie was just on TSN radio, and while he is an asshat with the same schtick of "Argos don't make money, we didn't buy them" (ignoring changing realities of a new TV deal a revitalized franchise, and the draw of a 30,000 seat outdoor stadium), he did say that Tannenbaum "likes the Argos" and would have bought them in the past. Perhaps, with Tannenbaum as the new face of the franchise, this marks a new day of awareness etc. Maybe, just maybe, Tannenbaum will end up being a really good owner, along with MLSE.

Rogers already made back a significant portion of their investment by selling the French Language NHL Rights to TVA for $1.5 Billion:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/hockeys-french-connection/article15642270/

Also through MLSE Rogers already owns part of the Regional rights for the leafs. They also own some regional rights for the Oilers, Flames and Canucks. In addition to that there's nothing that prohibits them on bidding on more NHL regional rights.


If this is true, this is the best move for the Argos. MLSE ownership will push the Argos out in front of T.O fans. Imaging things like seeing Argo ads and Argo talk in the media, us Argo fans will be in a stAte of shock. You want leaf season tickets, guess what, now just like TFC and the Raptors, you will have to buy Argo season tickets

That's not how it works now. If you have Platinum Leaf Season Tickets you just have to buy Raptors Season Tickets too.

[argos1873]

Hey everyone, back from the Philippines, but after 36 hours of travel, never too tired to post about this stuff. Ok maybe too tired to make a logical, well though out post, but that never stopped me before. I hate the idea of MLSE owning the Argos, but I think its the only way this is going to play out. Really who else is going to step up to the plate? Braley never wanted to own the Argos long term, and he's getting out of the game entirely anyhow, so what other choice do we have? I don't like the way MLSE runs franchises for the most part, but they got the cash to do things right if they choose to do so. And this will also solve (once and for all) the stadium debate. I know not everyone will be happy with the Argos playing at BMO, but how many are happy with them playing at Skydome? How many would be happy if they played in Downsview? The point is, you can please some of the people all the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. At the very least, MLSE and a renovated BMO puts the long standing Argo stadium question to bed, once and for all. That alone is good for the franchise. How will MLSE treat the Argo franchise? That's yet to be seen, but I bet you they leave the day-to-day to the GM on this one. I bet you its actually more difficult to be a GM of a CFL team, than an NFL team. You can't just through money at a problem like you can in other big leagues. The MLSE brass aren't going to get involved so long as they see the results they expect to see. Just my 2 centavos.

[OV Argo]

Go Larry go! - what a potential great Argo owner - such a huge CFL fan and him and his corporate suit buddies will have the Argos/CFL interests first & foremost. What a dream scenario - the geniuses at MLSE to the Argos rescue.

Next up - the NFL will be all for abandoning most of their rules/traditions to adopt Canadian football rules, after they view how Larry and his crew have led the Argos to the football stratosphere

[argos1873]

Go Larry go! - what a potential great Argo owner - such a huge CFL fan and him and his corporate suit buddies will have the Argos/CFL interests first & foremost. What a dream scenario - the geniuses at MLSE to the Argos rescue.

And pro soccer will be as popular as hockey/ the NHL here within a decade? - oh really - LOL - just frickin' priceless. Next up - the NFL will be all for abandoning most of their rules/traditions to adopt Canadian football rules, after they view how Larry and his crew have led the Argos to the football stratosphere; plus there will be a 30 some team pro soccer league in the US with sold-out stadiums and a multi-billion dollar TV contract. Bottom line fascism rules !!!

I hear you, but who else is stepping up to the plate to "rescue" the Argos? For some silly reason I somewhat believe that the Argos being an MLSE owned team will give the Argos "credibility" among certain sheeple sports fans in Toronto. I know you may not like that as a self proclaimed Argos fanatic, but we've all been wanting butts in the seats one way or the other, and since the 60s and 70s are long gone, that wasn't just going to happen by itself. If you have another viable solution, I'm sure the board (this board) would love to hear it.

[OV Argo]

I hear you, but who else is stepping up to the plate to "rescue" the Argos? For some silly reason I somewhat believe that the Argos being an MLSE owned team will give the Argos "credibility" among certain sheeple sports fans in Toronto. I know you may not like that as a self proclaimed Argos fanatic, but we've all been wanting butts in the seats one way or the other, and since the 60s and 70s are long gone, that wasn't just going to happen by itself. If you have another viable solution, I'm sure the board (this board) would love to hear it.

Sure - I'll take a big hypothetical whirl at that one: Mr. Braley declines to sell the Argos to a money grubbing gaggle of corporate clowns who have no real interest in the Argos and the CFL (and in fact would love to see their demise (though maybe making a few bucks somehow in the meantime) on some ludicrous belief that this could open the doors to their dream of a world class, major league NFL team coming to Toronnawannabe land, or a better scene for the soccer snobs. The corporate entity thinks of the Argos as a quaint little "investment" that can help further their other priorities in the Toronna sports map - a nice little tool perhaps that could be folded whenever their bottom line bean counters tell them so.

Instead: some quite well-off $s local owners (see the new Ottawa team - probably the best $ resources team in the entire CFL now - local guys with big buck$ and commitment/history to the Ottawa community, plus some running a sports team smarts) are HEAVILY recruited to buying into the new CFL in TO - with a more stable league now plus a nice promise of much bigger TV revenue and increasing profile backed by smart marketing as incentive; AND - that new ownership group reaches out to the local community with some sort of a part community ownership model - selling some sort of shares in Argo ownership - with a relatively modest dollar commitment - so that real, average football/Argo fans could contribute to the team both in terms of financial help, and in having some sort of voting share on team policy and interests (contract endorsement of the GM, ticket prices, cheerleader outfits ;o), etc). And MAYBE an improving Argo fortunes leads to a new real Argo/Canadian football friendly stadium in the GTA - down the road, with some $$$ help from one or all of the municipal, provincial and federal levels of government; hey, we'd even let soccer or rugby or other sports play at the new facility, plus be open to concerts, Canada Day or other celebration parties or lots of other activities (not just designed for corporate profit).

What's that you say? - craziness, never work? OK then - just give in to the bottom line facists, and soon as possible - MLSE: what an amazing outfit - Larry, Curly and Moe in charge of the Argos - leading the Boatmen into this brave new century - that is until they are deemed not relevant or major league enough and can be folded as bottom line dictates.

And if Mr. Braley doesn't really care that much about the Argos future - sure he can sell the team to the highest bidder, if it's just about profits - he spent his money on the Argo/CFL (and maybe made some decent bucks on that 100th GC). Go ahead and sell the team to whoever is willing to pay the most i guess.

[argos1873]

Sure - I'll take a big hypothetical whirl at that one: Mr. Braley declines to sell the Argos to a money grubbing gaggle of corporate clowns who have no real interest in the Argos and the CFL (and in fact would love to see their demise (though maybe making a few bucks somehow in the meantime) on some ludicrous belief that this could open the doors to their dream of a world class, major league NFL team coming to Toronnawannabe land, or a better scene for the soccer snobs. The corporate entity thinks of the Argos as a quaint little "investment" that can help further their other priorities in the Toronna sports map - a nice little tool perhaps that could be folded whenever their bottom line bean counters tell them so.

Instead: some quite well-off $s local owners (see the new Ottawa team - probably the best $ resources team in the entire CFL now - local guys with big buck$ and commitment/history to the Ottawa community, plus some running a sports team smarts) are HEAVILY recruited to buying into the new CFL in TO - with a more stable league now plus a nice promise of much bigger TV revenue and increasing profile backed by smart marketing as incentive; AND - that new ownership group reaches out to the local community with some sort of a part community ownership model - selling some sort of shares in Argo ownership - with a relatively modest dollar commitment - so that real, average football/Argo fans could contribute to the team both in terms of financial help, and in having some sort of voting share on team policy and interests (contract endorsement of the GM, ticket prices, cheerleader outfits ;o), etc). And MAYBE an improving Argo fortunes leads to a new real Argo/Canadian football friendly stadium in the GTA - down the road, with some $$$ help from one or all of the municipal, provincial and federal levels of government; hey, we'd even let soccer or rugby or other sports play at the new facility, plus be open to concerts, Canada Day or other celebration parties or lots of other activities (not just designed for corporate profit).

What's that you say? - craziness, never work? OK then - just give in to the bottom line facists, and soon as possible - MLSE: what an amazing outfit - Larry, Curly and Moe in charge of the Argos - leading the Boatmen into this brave new century - that is until they are deemed not relevant or major league enough and can be folded as bottom line dictates.

And if Mr. Braley doesn't really care that much about the Argos future - sure he can sell the team to the highest bidder, if it's just about profits - he spent his money on the Argo/CFL (and maybe made some decent bucks on that 100th GC). Go ahead and sell the team to whoever is willing to pay the most i guess.

I like your ideas actually, especially the community ownership involvement. But hey, until someone with the bucks stands up to buy into that model, its candyland speak. I know that you are more than intelligent enough to know that. It could work, but who is stepping up to the plate? Right now we only have what MLSE offers. I'm sorry to say, but I believe its a lump it or leave it deal. Who else is stepping up to the plate?

[OV Argo]

I like your ideas actually, especially the community ownership involvement. But hey, until someone with the bucks stands up to buy into that model, its candyland speak. I know that you are more than intelligent enough to know that. It could work, but who is stepping up to the plate? Right now we only have what MLSE offers. I'm sorry to say, but I believe its a lump it or leave it deal. Who else is stepping up to the plate?

Who else has been asked to step up to the plate? - if it's all just about the highest bidder and Mr. Braley is desperate to sell (gouge) to the highest bidder, then hey, that's life in the world of big biz-ness these days i guess = bring on the corporate scum-bags - works so well in most other areas of modern day life.

You mean to tell me that there are no reasonably rich guys ( a collection of 3 or 5 of them say) in the GTA who are big Canadian football fans and who could come together and have interest in owning the Argos, in a growing CFL (new TV bucks have to be mentioned)? - takes multi-million$ does it? - what did Braley pay for the Argos? A demographic 5 times or more bigger than Ottawa (where such a group did form) has nothing to offer? Really ???, and this idea has been HEAVILY recruited there? IF - it is just about Mr. Braely seeling for maximum profit, then i could see any such potential group being out-bid by Larry and his corporate ilk. Way she goes i guess. (as Ray said to Bubbles).

[argos1873]

Who else has been asked to step up to the plate? - if it's all just about the highest bidder and Mr. Braley is desperate to sell (gouge) to the highest bidder, then hey, that's life in the world of big biz-ness these days i guess = bring on the corporate scum-bags - works so well in most other areas of modern day life.

You mean to tell me that there are no reasonably rich guys ( a collection of 3 or 5 of them say) in the GTA who are big Canadian football fans and who could come together and have interest in owning the Argos, in a growing CFL (new TV bucks have to be mentioned)? - takes multi-million$ does it? - what did Braley pay for the Argos? A demographic 5 times or more bigger than Ottawa (where such a group did form) has nothing to offer? Really ???, and this idea has been HEAVILY recruited there? IF - it is just about Mr. Braely seeling for maximum profit, then i could see any such potential group being out-bid by Larry and his corporate ilk. Way she goes i guess. (as Ray said to Bubbles).

Yes, way she goes I guess, since there has been no word of any other reasonably rich guys in the GTA willing to pony up the cash. But also I guess you are willing to sell your house or business to only the bidder who will take the best care, not the one who will offer the most cash. If that's so, I salute you man, but you know as well as I do, that's not the way the world works. But if you believe that Mr Braley only loves Canadian football, and he then sells to MLSE, then you might believe that Mr Braley isn't a fascist and is doing the right thing. But we all know that above Mr Braley's love of Canadian football, comes his love of money. Otherwise he might just be a regular poster here, or well on the Ti-Cats forum since he's really a Ti-Cat fan.

BTW when you sell your house, at least now in the GTA market, you don't ask someone to buy it, people buy it because they want it. If you say you are going to sell the Argos, which are a recognizable property in the GTA, you shouldn't have to ask anyone, if they are worth something. To me and you and countless fans they are worth something, but are they a valuable business? I would say given the history for the last 30 years they are not. You can ask me to buy your 1987 Hyundai Pony, I'll probably say no. But if you have a 1953 Corvette for sale, you probably won't have to put out too much word, they will come to you to buy it. Its hard to swallow but the Argos value wise are more like the 87 Pony. That may be fascism, but its the way the world works.

[R.J]

Peddie on TSN Drive with Dave Naylor and special guest host Dave Hodge.
Starts at 21:46.

http://iphone.tsn.ca/tsnpodcasts/TSN%20DRIVE%20HR%201%20Jan%2028.mp3

[argos1873]

Peddie on TSN Drive with Dave Naylor and special guest host Dave Hodge.
Starts at 21:46.

http://iphone.tsn.ca/tsnpodcasts/TSN DRIVE HR 1 Jan 28.mp3

Richard Peddie of all people: @ about 26:45 "When you have a business and its not working you can always shut the business down...and my point was you cannot shut the Argos down, because they're the oldest sports franchise in North America. That's unacceptable." This was point 4 of his reason's for not buying the Argos. Not sure how the current MLSE feels about that point, but unlike others here, I don't think there is a corporate attempt to shut down the Argos, as they really don't pose a threat to an NFL team here. And I really believe any sane businessman believes that. Given priority? No, but I have no believe that even Rogers cares to shut the Argos down. They just don't care.

[OV Argo]

Just for some sort of clarification on the Argos sale or value : anybody know or have any educated guesses as to what Mr, Braley paid to become the Argos owner?

The Argos are just like any other business ??? ; and selling them is just like the average joe selling his house or car ???

[VANRIDERFAN]

Now I know that I am an outsider here. I am thrilled that there seems to be a bright light on the horizon for the Argo franchise.

But I have to chuckle at the arrogance of the Toronto media (and how it infects staff that moves to the big smoke from the hinterlands). When Dave Hodge says to Peddie and Naylor that Torontonians don't want to see their team play Hamilton or Regina, they want to see them play New York or Dallas. I'm thinking, do New Yorkers want to see their team play Toronto, or are they more excited to see them play Philadelphia, Miami or San Fran or London England?

I would like to see the US TV numbers for the Jays, Raptors, Leafs and TFC. I would suspect that they are not all that impressive.

[rdavies]

Shoalts: MLSE outlines plans for stadium renovation, with eye on NFL team (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/leiweke-outlines-mlse-plans-for-stadium-renovation/article16570810/)
David Shoalts The Globe and Mail Jan. 29 2014

Tim Leiweke’s and Larry Tanenbaum’s big plans for BMO Field are based in large part on a billion-dollar bet: finally landing that elusive NFL franchise for Toronto.

That may sound ominous for the CFL’s Toronto Argonauts, but a happy side effect of this plan would be an escape from the Rogers Centre for the far more football-friendly setting of a renovated BMO Field – not to mention a possible sale to either Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd. or Tanenbaum. The NFL is expected to insist that sort of safety net for the Argos must be part of bringing a franchise to Toronto, be it a purchase of the Buffalo Bills or an expansion team.

So Tanenbaum and Leiweke – the chairman and chief executive officer of MLSE, respectively – are fairly well along in their planning for the soccer-specific BMO Field, which is owned by the City of Toronto but managed by MLSE. The plan is for MLSE to spend $120-million making the stadium suitable for both the CFL and Toronto FC, the company’s Major League Soccer franchise, topped by a roof over the expanded stands, which will seat 30,000 for soccer and between 25,000 and 26,000 for football.

MLSE executive vice-president Bob Hunter, who is in charge of the BMO renovations, said Wednesday it will take about two years to finish, with the seating expected to be ready for the Pan American Games in the summer of 2015, and the canopy over the seats to be done by 2016. There is still some paperwork to be completed with the city, but since MLSE is footing the bill, no huge problems are expected.

However, on either side of this equation, the road ahead is fraught with potholes as deep as MLSE’s pockets.

The renovation price tag plus a potential purchase of the Argos – which would also mean taking on somewhere between $2-million and $4-million in annual operating losses, according to someone who knows the team’s financial picture – can be seen as the price Leiweke and Tanenbaum are willing to pay to get into the NFL game. That is a lot of money to bet on landing an NFL team – which would also require someone having to spend around $2-billion on acquiring a franchise and then building an NFL-acceptable stadium.

On the NFL side of things, Leiweke and Tanenbaum are at the head of the charge, but both are expected to be minority owners of a team at best.

By league rules, only individuals (not corporations) can own NFL teams – and that role probably would go to someone from the Rogers family, which owns 37.5 per cent of MLSE through Rogers Communications Inc.

No matter how friendly the MLSE forces get with 95-year-old Buffalo Bills owner Ralph Wilson and his family, the fact is when he passes on, his heirs will hold an auction to get the highest possible price for the team. And then there will be political forces in New York State that will not want to see the Bills leave Buffalo. (The Bills, however, have played annual games in Toronto since 2008.)

An expansion franchise is an even greater long shot.

On the CFL side of things, the Argos have long yearned to leave the 50,000-seat Rogers Centre (their lease is up in 2017, but they have an escape clause they can exercise at the end of each CFL season) for a more intimate venue. Now that MLSE is willing to pay for the expensive construction work needed to expand BMO Field’s end zones to accommodate the 110-yard-long CFL field, it would seem the good ship Argonaut has smooth sailing ahead.

But not necessarily, and for some of the same reasons that scuttled the same move several years ago, when the Argos were owned by Howard Sokolowski and David Cynamon. Former senator David Braley has owned the Argonauts since 2010. (and the B.C. Lions since 1997).

It is expensive to play a game at BMO Field, way more expensive than it is now for the Argos to play a game at the Rogers Centre, where they essentially play rent-free. Thanks to several union contracts between the city and everyone from the electrical and sound staff to concessions workers and the ushers, it costs about $100,000 every time Toronto FC plays at BMO Field. Since the facility is owned by the city, there is no cutting a sweetheart deal just to land a new tenant.

Multiply that by eight regular-season games and a preseason game (and perhaps postseason games) and that is a roughly $1-million bill for a CFL team, a crippling charge for a league that operates on tight margins.

If the MLSE board ever agrees to buy the Argos or Tanenbaum does so with his own money, that may not be a problem. But if not, then finding another CFL owner presents a whole new wrinkle.


When Dave Hodge says to Peddie and Naylor that Torontonians don't want to see their team play Hamilton or Regina, they want to see them play New York or Dallas. I'm thinking, do New Yorkers want to see their team play Toronto, or are they more excited to see them play Philadelphia, Miami or San Fran or London England?Yes, but the strange thing is, in hockey, do Torontonians want to see Montreal and Ottawa or New York and Dallas. I would say it is the former not the latter. Same thing in soccer, I would think the Impact and Whitecaps are better received than New York and Dallas. It is still the Toronto perception that the CFL is "small time"

And yes, to Americans, Toronto is more akin to Jacksonville than it is to London.

[ArgoGabe22]

Just for some sort of clarification on the Argos sale or value : anybody know or have any educated guesses as to what Mr, Braley paid to become the Argos owner?

The Argos are just like any other business ??? ; and selling them is just like the average joe selling his house or car ???

It seems that the value of other CFL franchises is at around $15M. I bet Braley paid close to that ($12-15M?) and I believe I read somewhere that he is now looking to get around $20M.

[OV Argo]

It seems that the value of other CFL franchises is at around $15M. I bet Braley paid close to that ($12-15M?) and I believe I read somewhere that he is now looking to get around $20M.

I'd take that bet; my bet would be that he paid next to nothing (but assusmed some Argo debt) to become the custodian of a money losing Argos.

And now Braley expects to get 20 mil for the Argos - who according to this Shoalts character have "annual operating losses" of 2 to 4 million $ a year and who can't get 20 thousand people out to a football game in a demograhic of 5 million plus ???

[ArgoGabe22]

I'd take that bet; my bet would be that he paid next to nothing (but assusmed some Argo debt) to become the custodian of a money losing Argos.

And now Braley expects to get 20 mil for the Argos - who according to this Shoalts character have "annual operating losses" of 2 to 4 million $ a year and who can't get 20 thousand people out to a football game in a demograhic of 5 million plus ???

I forgot that he already funded the team so he probably did pay less. I can't find the number reported but many CFL forums report that he is looking to get $20M for the Lions. Not a very good source but I think he did say something like he knows what the franchises are worth and what they go for ($15M) and won't sell for anything else.

[R.J]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/leiweke-hybrid-grass-option-for-bmo-field/

Argos to BMO talk starts close to the end of the segment. Sounds like it's a done deal already just waiting to reach an agreement with the city and sale of the Argonauts. Hybrid grass, retractable seats, roof etc, in the works.

[Ron]

Just this past summer I wrote on this board that MLSE would own this team and they would play at BMO Field within 2 seasons and I was essentially laughed at. Apologies accepted anytime lol.

I'll take a stab at this.

I apologize that you thought we were laughing at what you wrote when we were clearly just laughing at you. :love:

[ArgoRavi]

Something that Shoalts is missing in his article is that gate receipts for Argos games at the new BMO Field should improve substantially over what they have been getting in recent years at SkyDome. Also, the TV revenues are going to be significantly greater so it is very likely that the "2 million to $4 million" in losses will be reduced considerably if not eliminated entirely (which is my guess).


I'd take that bet; my bet would be that he paid next to nothing (but assusmed some Argo debt) to become the custodian of a money losing Argos.

And now Braley expects to get 20 mil for the Argos - who according to this Shoalts character have "annual operating losses" of 2 to 4 million $ a year and who can't get 20 thousand people out to a football game in a demograhic of 5 million plus ???

I am pretty sure you are correct, OV. Braley probably didn't pay one cent to Cynamon and Sokolowski. He likely just assumed their debts which was a few million dollars. Braley will make a killing if he sells to MLSE/Tanenbaum for $15 million to $20 million but I do suspect that he will get something close to that as the value of the Argos will rise significantly with the new TV deal and greater gate receipts at a renovated BMO Field.

[AngeloV]

Something that Shoalts is missing in his article is that gate receipts for Argos games at the new BMO Field should improve substantially over what they have been getting in recent years at SkyDome. Also, the TV revenues are going to be significantly greater so it is very likely that the "2 million to $4 million" in losses will be reduced considerably if not eliminated entirely (which is my guess).

They will also benefit financially from not paying rent at BMO, and being assured of better home dates.

[argotom]

They will also benefit financially from not paying rent at BMO, and being assured of better home dates.

Not to mention the game day sales of beer, merchandise etc..

[Argo57]

While all the talk of new ownership and home for the Argonauts is intriguing,as a season ticket holder I do wonder how much ticket prices will be increasing to pay for all of this.

[jerrym]

While I am nervous about the likelihood of MLSE taking over the Argos, it looks like the best option with the best possible upside, despite the fact the thought still lingers that this could still be a NFL bait and switch.

[Ron]

While I am nervous about the likelihood of MLSE taking over the Argos, it looks like the best option with the best possible upside, despite the fact the thought still lingers that this could still be a NFL bait and switch.

The NFL needs (NEEDS) the CFL. So MLSE ain't buying them just to kill them Plus they'll always need to fill dates at BMO. (The NFL ain't playin at BMO)

But this falls with the long standing paranoia by Argo fans. For example ... if Rogers really wanted the Argos dead they could have killed them long ago. Just not renew a lease when the team had nowhere else to go. (Which could have been done many times) Even now the word from "Rogers" is that they would not boot the Argos from the Dome of they had nowhere else to go. That sure don't sound like an organization hell bent on killing them. There be a big difference between not giving a shit and wanting something dead.


While all the talk of new ownership and home for the Argonauts is intriguing,as a season ticket holder I do wonder how much ticket prices will be increasing to pay for all of this.

Look at what BC Lions ticket prices are. Toronto and Hammer have been cheap in comparison for a while. My $20 dome seat would be about $50 at BC Place.

Cats fans OTOH are lucky going forward that their owner ain't a money grab dude. Existing seat holders get a sweet deal as long as they keep those seats. If the Argos fill BMO, it's logical to assume higher tix prices are ahead.

[ArgoGabe22]

If the stadium houses 40K then they really can't price out too many people or half of it will be empty. Maybe a small increase but nothing huge, I hope.

[AngeloV]

While all the talk of new ownership and home for the Argonauts is intriguing,as a season ticket holder I do wonder how much ticket prices will be increasing to pay for all of this.

I don't think it's a matter of who owns the team that relates to ticket prices but rather demand. Tough to ask market value for your tickets when there are 30k empty seats in a 55k stadium (or 10k empty seats in a reduced version of that stadium). If the team starts playing to 90% capacity in whatever stadium they call home, ticket prices will go up.

[argotom]

While all the talk of new ownership and home for the Argonauts is intriguing,as a season ticket holder I do wonder how much ticket prices will be increasing to pay for all of this.


You are bang on for that as MLSE has an atrocious history with ticket holders.
No better example what MLSE charges for the Leafs, then blackmails their season ticket holders to purchase Raptors.
Even worse to TFC when increasing their prices and effectively chasing many away.
I am also a multi year season ticket holder, who knows what's going to happen?

[Argo57]

I don't think it's a matter of who owns the team that relates to ticket prices but rather demand. Tough to ask market value for your tickets when there are 30k empty seats in a 55k stadium (or 10k empty seats in a reduced version of that stadium). If the team starts playing to 90% capacity in whatever stadium they call home, ticket prices will go up.

I get the supply and demand aspect Angelo and trust me would love to see a much greater live game experience, but as enthused as I am with many aspects of these recent developments MLSE is all about profit and I know when they establish greater ticket demand (with more limited supply) this group will jam it to the fans big time!!
Perhaps this is a somewhat necessary by product of making our team relevant again. Time will tell.

[Rich]

If the stadium houses 40K then they really can't price out too many people or half of it will be empty. Maybe a small increase but nothing huge, I hope.

Well Shoalts' story today said Argo capacity at BMO will be 25 or 26 thousand. Is there any doubt that place will regularly be sold out completely? I was really hoping there'd be at least 30k seats for the Argos. But at 25, I'm afraid ticket prices will go up. A lot. Hopefully i'll be making more money by then.

[paulwoods13]

We all want the franchise to not only survive but thrive, right? If it is able to charge more for tickets, and sell most or all of them, then it should thrive. No doubt some fans won't be able to afford to buy tickets, or at least the top-priced tickets, but if other fans buy those tickets, our team will thrive for years to come (and everyone else can watch on TV). There's no way to have the franchise become profitable -- which several of us have said is possible -- while charging down-market prices. I'd rather have higher prices and a stable, successful future than low prices and the constant risk of going out of business.

[T-Bone]

MLSE plan for an expanded BMO Field loaded with uncertainty (http://www.goal.com/en-ca/news/4175/major-league-soccer/2014/01/29/4579750/rudi-schuller-mlse-plan-for-an-expanded-bmo-field-loaded?ICID=CP_881)

[Neely2005]

Something that Shoalts is missing in his article is that gate receipts for Argos games at the new BMO Field should improve substantially over what they have been getting in recent years at SkyDome. Also, the TV revenues are going to be significantly greater so it is very likely that the "2 million to $4 million" in losses will be reduced considerably if not eliminated entirely (which is my guess).

It's also much more expensive to stage a game at BMO Field due to the city workers and their union contacts.

See Post # 50 above.


I am pretty sure you are correct, OV. Braley probably didn't pay one cent to Cynamon and Sokolowski. He likely just assumed their debts which was a few million dollars. Braley will make a killing if he sells to MLSE/Tanenbaum for $15 million to $20 million but I do suspect that he will get something close to that as the value of the Argos will rise significantly with the new TV deal and greater gate receipts at a renovated BMO Field.

Braley also lost millions of dollars each season that he owned the Argonauts. Aside from the Grey Cup year.


If the stadium houses 40K then they really can't price out too many people or half of it will be empty. Maybe a small increase but nothing huge, I hope.

As per Post # 50 in this thread BMO Field will seat 25,000 - 26,000 for Regular Season Argonauts games.

40,000 is with Temporary Seating for Grey Cups and Winter Classics.

[OV Argo]

It's also much more expensive to stage a game at BMO Field due to the city workers and their union contacts.

See Post # 50 above.



Braley also lost millions of dollars each season that he owned the Argonauts. Aside from the Grey Cup year.



As per Post # 50 in this thread BMO Field will seat 25,000 - 26,000 for Regular Season Argonauts games.

40,000 is with Temporary Seating for Grey Cups and Winter Classics.



Based on the TV ratings for TFC there doesn't seem to be a huge following outside of those that actually go to the games. TFC attendance has been down the past few seasons too.


What is your source of information that Braley has lost millions of dollars each season he's owned the Argos? - got any bank statements or financial audits to show us to back that up? Or is it maybe more like from conventional CFL media gossip/wisdom/cliches that a lot of posters like to cite on these fan forums?

[ArgoGabe22]

As per Post # 50 in this thread BMO Field will seat 25,000 - 26,000 for Regular Season Argonauts games.

40,000 is with Temporary Seating for Grey Cups and Winter Classics.

From yesterday....."Tim Leiweke elaborates on his ultimate goal for BMO Field on Prime Time Sports, sharing his vision of a 40,000-seat world class stadium that can also accommodate the CFL, bringing up ‘hybrid grass’ as a possibility."

[T-Bone]

It's also much more expensive to stage a game at BMO Field due to the city workers and their union contacts.

See Post # 50 above.
If the cost to host an Argo game at BMO Field is too high for MLSE to make a profit they simply won't buy the team. I highly doubt that is the case but I'm sure they have people crunching those numbers for them to figure that out.

[Neely2005]

What is your source of information that Braley has lost millions of dollars each season he's owned the Argos? - got any bank statements or financial audits to show us to back that up? Or is it maybe more like from conventional CFL media gossip/wisdom/cliches that a lot of posters like to cite on these fan forums?

"the team may currently be losing upwards of $6 million per season less than a year after successfully hosting and winning the 100th Grey Cup last November. It all seemed desperate, you’ll recall, back in 2003 when Sherwood Schwarz threw up his hands after losing an estimated $15 million in three seasons, and the league took over the franchise before selling it to the tandem of David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski."

http://www.thestar.com/sports/2013/09/27/argos_a_ticking_time_bomb_for_cfl_cox.html

"The renovation price tag plus a potential purchase of the Argos – which would also mean taking on somewhere between $2-million and $4-million in annual operating losses, according to someone who knows the team's financial picture"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/leiweke-outlines-mlse-plans-for-stadium-renovation/article16570810/



From yesterday....."Tim Leiweke elaborates on his ultimate goal for BMO Field on Prime Time Sports, sharing his vision of a 40,000-seat world class stadium that can also accommodate the CFL, bringing up ‘hybrid grass’ as a possibility."

"The plan is for MLSE to spend $120-million making the stadium suitable for both the CFL and Toronto FC, the company's Major League Soccer franchise, topped by a roof over the expanded stands, which will seat 30,000 for soccer and between 25,000 and 26,000 for football."

(http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/leiweke-outlines-mlse-plans-for-stadium-renovation/article16570810/)http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/leiweke-outlines-mlse-plans-for-stadium-renovation/article16570810/

40,000 is to big for Regular Season TFC & Argonauts games. 40,000 for the Argonauts is probably 45,000 for TFC.

[OV Argo]

"the team may currently be losing upwards of $6 million per season less than a year after successfully hosting and winning the 100th Grey Cup last November. It all seemed desperate, you’ll recall, back in 2003 when Sherwood Schwarz threw up his hands after losing an estimated $15 million in three seasons, and the league took over the franchise before selling it to the tandem of David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski."

http://www.thestar.com/sports/2013/09/27/argos_a_ticking_time_bomb_for_cfl_cox.html

"The renovation price tag plus a potential purchase of the Argos – which would also mean taking on somewhere between $2-million and $4-million in annual operating losses, according to someone who knows the team's financial picture"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/leiweke-outlines-mlse-plans-for-stadium-renovation/article16570810/


As i suspected: some unsubstantiated media reports = the usual with CFL financial figures ("somewhere between 2 & 4 million" eh? - how conveniently vague) ; could well be quite true/accurate; and you are free to believe as you wish.

[doubleblue]

I don't think the Argo losses would be much at all IF they were in a Stadium like BMO with Friday nights, Weekends and the odd Holiday home schedule. Plus parking and food and drink revenue with a 25,000 paid attendance. I don't think there is any way the Argos owned by MLSE would lose money with the current SMS and better home dates and concessions. Plus more corporate sponsors. You want to have a Maple Leaf corporate box? Maybe you should buy an Argo one at the same time, especially if you want a good one at the ACC. :)

[Downtownfan]

Well, I am not sure if I can believe the accuracy of Shoalts, the hockey guy, on these matters. He did write that the team has an "eight" game season. Few of these reports take into account the new TV deal on the Argos finances, a curious but opportune bout of collective amnesia.

Funny, these journalists are amazingly good at ferreting out the supposed annual losses for the Argos, a privately held club. Yet no one ever reports on the Blue Jays losses, or the massive losses Rogers undoubtedly suffered with the Bills' debacle, and Rogers is a publicly traded company. Given that so many of these "reporters" actually work for Rogers, you would think it would be a simple matter to find out-- of course, that would shatter their prejudged narrative. If Rogers' actual losses on the Bills were reported, it would make the Argos look better in contrast-- and we can't have that, can we?

[Neely2005]

Well, I am not sure if I can believe the accuracy of Shoalts, the hockey guy, on these matters. He did write that the team has an "eight" game season. Few of these reports take into account the new TV deal on the Argos finances, a curious but opportune bout of collective amnesia.

Funny, these journalists are amazingly good at ferreting out the supposed annual losses for the Argos, a privately held club. Yet no one ever reports on the Blue Jays losses, or the massive losses Rogers undoubtedly suffered with the Bills' debacle, and Rogers is a publicly traded company. Given that so many of these "reporters" actually work for Rogers, you would think it would be a simple matter to find out-- of course, that would shatter their prejudged narrative. If Rogers' actual losses on the Bills were reported, it would make the Argos look better in contrast-- and we can't have that, can we?

Probably because the new TV deal hasn't kicked in yet and they were reporting previous years losses.

[ArgoRavi]

Probably because the new TV deal hasn't kicked in yet and they were reporting previous years losses.

However, Damian Cox was only too willing to speculate that the team "may be losing upwards of $6 million per season". What is that based on? I could see them losing in the $2 million to $4 million range but $6 million sounds like a bit much to me. Again, all we can do is speculate but the Argos playing out of BMO with a rich (by CFL standards) TV contract would likely put them in position to be profitable.

[Downtownfan]

Actually, they are not "reporting" on previous year's losses, they are speculating. Fact is, there is a TV deal, which has been reported (not speculated) to be approximately $40 million a year, which kicks in this year, and rarely has been mentioned in all the reporting of the last week on the Argos and their potential move to BMO/MLSE. Again, the point stands-- there is virtually never any reporting on the finances of other teams, especally the Blue Jays, but including TFC-- even though Tim L. stated that the recent big name signnings are "financial suicide." There is a media narrative out there that fits within a prejudice against the CFL and the Argos in particular.

[Invader]

However, Damian Cox was only too willing to speculate that the team "may be losing upwards of $6 million per season". What is that based on? I could see them losing in the $2 million to $4 million range but $6 million sounds like a bit much to me. Again, all we can do is speculate but the Argos playing out of BMO with a rich (by CFL standards) TV contract would likely put them in position to be profitable.
I heard Cox explain how he arrived at the $6 million loss figure on PTS last year. To paraphrase: "Ok, whada Argos make in tickets, $2-3 mil? Then there's the TV deal, $1 mil? Throw in half a mil from sponsors and signs and stuff. But the Argos got to pay the $4 mil salary cap, then another mil for coaches and a couple mil to rent Rogers Centre, add in the air fare and stuff, that's gotta be $6 mil in losses right there!"

I couldn't believe my ears when I heard him sav that on national TV. I thought he was a reputable columnists, but is actually a total buffoon. On another PTS show Cox was emphatic "the Argos only averaged 13,000 crowds this year"..."I know<nodding>." Pretending like he has some secret info from the RC ticket office or perhaps he counted the Argo crowds each game to come to this revelation?

As a columnist, Cox is entitled to have an opinion about the Argos losses. But as a reporter in the sports section, he would need to provide proof to his editor and publisher that the loss figures can be verified by a reputable source, or the Toronto Star could be facing a lawsuit.

Other reports over the years have put the Argos losses at $1 to $2 million per year, which I would tend to believe over Cox who seems to have a axe to grind against the CFL. I'm sure he'd quickly change his tune from a Rogers hack to an Argos Booster if MLSE/Tannenbaum bought the team!

P.S. In the Shoalts G&M story, that is his "analysis" and not a news story. Anything which is not quoted from a source in the story is only his opinion and cannot necessarily be verified as true.)
</nodding>

[Argo57]

I heard Cox explain how he arrived at the $6 million loss figure on PTS last year. To paraphrase: "Ok, whada Argos make in tickets, $2-3 mil? Then there's the TV deal, $1 mil? Throw in half a mil from sponsors and signs and stuff. But the Argos got to pay the $4 mil salary cap, then another mil for coaches and a couple mil to rent Rogers Centre, add in the air fare and stuff, that's gotta be $6 mil in losses right there!"

I couldn't believe my ears when I heard him sav that on national TV. I thought he was a reputable columnists, but is actually a total buffoon. On another PTS show Cox was emphatic "the Argos only averaged 13,000 crowds this year"..."I know<nodding>." Pretending like he has some secret info from the RC ticket office or perhaps he counted the Argo crowds each game to come to this revelation?

As a columnist, Cox is entitled to have an opinion about the Argos losses. But as a reporter in the sports section, he would need to provide proof to his editor and publisher that the loss figures can be verified by a reputable source, or the Toronto Star could be facing a lawsuit.

Other reports over the years have put the Argos losses at $1 to $2 million per year, which I would tend to believe over Cox who seems to have a axe to grind against the CFL. I'm sure he'd quickly change his tune from a Rogers hack to an Argos Booster if MLSE/Tannenbaum bought the team!

P.S. In the Shoalts G&M story, that is his "analysis" and not a news story. Anything which is not quoted from a source in the story is only his opinion and cannot necessarily be verified as true.)
</nodding>

Cox actually fits in perfectly on the PTS show, along with the other dim bulb, legends in their own mind!!
Don't take much (if anything) that they say seriously.

[Argocister]

If I recall correctly, Cohon commented that the extra monies from the TV deal puts all teams in the black. I assume the Argos are the worst financially, so I'm thinking the extra million helps ease the dollar woes.So from that assumption, they have lost only a million or so the past year or two.
IF the Argos can capitalize on the concessions and stores as well ..... will that provide extra monies? although the rent of BMO may cancel that benefit of being outside of skydome. ..... crap wish I won the 50 mill from lotto max.

[argotom]

From yesterday....."Tim Leiweke elaborates on his ultimate goal for BMO Field on Prime Time Sports, sharing his vision of a 40,000-seat world class stadium that can also accommodate the CFL, bringing up ‘hybrid grass’ as a possibility."


This guy Leiweke is nothing more then a snake oil salesman.
The man cannot be trusted.

[ArgoRavi]

This guy Leiweke is nothing more then a snake oil salesman.
The man cannot be trusted.

I am not crazy about Leiweke either, AT, but he won't be in Toronto forever. At some point within the next decade the bright lights of New York, Chicago or Los Angeles will call for this guy once again and he will head back across the border after attempting to colonize us backwards Canadians.

[T-Bone]

I am not crazy about Leiweke either, AT, but he won't be in Toronto forever. At some point within the next decade the bright lights of New York, Chicago or Los Angeles will call for this guy once again and he will head back across the border after attempting to colonize us backwards Canadians.
I never thought I would see MLSE knowingly lose money in order to improve a product, then Leiweke showed up. There has definitely been a shift in mentality at MLSE since Leiweke arrived. I don't fully trust him and MLSE is still about making money but it's nice to see them taking a risk and investing some of their money in hope of future returns.

[Downtownfan]

Richard Griffin has a terrible piece in the Star today that blames the Argos for Rogers inability to put grass in Skydome. Despite Beeston's claims to support the Argos, the article makes clear that the Argos are the "problem." Of course, no mention of the Bills series. Not sure how this fits with the MLSE move, but I wrote to Griffin to ask him why he omitted the Bills. No doubt I will get some shoddy brush of, if he relies at all.

[argos1873]

The Argos are just like any other business ??? ; and selling them is just like the average joe selling his house or car ???

Obviously not, but the analogy stills stands. Do you sell something at a loss to ensure that someone cares for the item that you are selling, or do you get the most that you can get? And if no one is lining up to buy what you are selling, how much choice do you have? Its not a secret that Braley wants to sell the team. Maybe you expect that Braley donates the team to a group that ensures they always take care of the team first and foremost, or do you expect he get's the best return he can, with the hope the buyer takes care of the team. Of course the latter helps when there are people lining up to buy the team, but as far as I ever heard only MLSE has shown interest. As a seller, even a compassionate one, what do you do especially when it comes to millions of dollars? I'm really not sure what your point is, when you argue that Braley should sell the team to some fictitious non-fascist group that ONLY has the best interest of the Argos at heart.


Richard Griffin has a terrible piece in the Star today that blames the Argos for Rogers inability to put grass in Skydome. Despite Beeston's claims to support the Argos, the article makes clear that the Argos are the "problem." Of course, no mention of the Bills series. Not sure how this fits with the MLSE move, but I wrote to Griffin to ask him why he omitted the Bills. No doubt I will get some shoddy brush of, if he relies at all.

Link? But really how can anyone blame the Argos for the inability for Rogers to have grass in a stadium when Rogers is the owner of the stadium. That's like me blaming a tenant in my building for me not having a great office space, because I rented that space to that tenant. The logic never ceases to amaze me. Anyhow, that's why I want MSLE to buy the Argos. Get them away from the Rogers Centre and lets be done with this nonsense. Maybe another bag of nails will be thrown our way, but let's deal with that when it comes. The Argos at Rogers Centre are done, at least soon, and let's deal with it. So tired of the Rogers Centre bullcrap.

[paulwoods13]

Here is the link: http://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/2014/02/01/jays_president_beeston_insists_baseball_should_be_ played_on_grass_griffin.html

I don't agree with Downtownfan's characterization of the story. Yes, Beeston points out that a CFL field cannot be placed in the RC without moving baseball seats (which would make grass impossible). This fact has always been known since the SkyDome was first built. It was built specifically with the plan to move the seats, so any move to grass requires that seats be fixed in place during baseball season. Beeston also says in the piece, “The bottom line of it is, I believe in the CFL. I think the CFL is a good product. It’s an exciting product. I actually think it’s great for the country. I think it’s a unifying fact for the country. It’s a different brand of football and to be very honest with you, I think that we have a community responsibility. On the other hand, it’s not ideal for the Argos, because we can’t fill the place. It’s probably too big." None of that strikes me as particularly negative about the CFL or "blaming" the Argos.

As for the Bills not being mentioned, I suspect there are two possible reasons: 1. An NFL field might be able to fit into a permanent baseball configuration, because it is narrower and much shorter than a CFL field, and/or 2. If the Bills continue to play a game every season at RC, it will be after baseball season ends so Rogers can make any changes it wants to the building then. The Argos, on the other hand, play their games during the baseball season, so obviously as long as they are a tenant in the building, grass can't be installed. That's all Beeston is saying, and it's far from "terrible."

[argos1873]

Here is the link: http://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/2014/02/01/jays_president_beeston_insists_baseball_should_be_ played_on_grass_griffin.html

I don't agree with Downtownfan's characterization of the story. Yes, Beeston points out that a CFL field cannot be placed in the RC without moving baseball seats (which would make grass impossible). This fact has always been known since the SkyDome was first built. It was built specifically with the plan to move the seats, so any move to grass requires that seats be fixed in place during baseball season. Beeston also says in the piece, “The bottom line of it is, I believe in the CFL. I think the CFL is a good product. It’s an exciting product. I actually think it’s great for the country. I think it’s a unifying fact for the country. It’s a different brand of football and to be very honest with you, I think that we have a community responsibility. On the other hand, it’s not ideal for the Argos, because we can’t fill the place. It’s probably too big." None of that strikes me as particularly negative about the CFL or "blaming" the Argos.

As for the Bills not being mentioned, I suspect there are two possible reasons: 1. An NFL field might be able to fit into a permanent baseball configuration, because it is narrower and much shorter than a CFL field, and/or 2. If the Bills continue to play a game every season at RC, it will be after baseball season ends so Rogers can make any changes it wants to the building then. The Argos, on the other hand, play their games during the baseball season, so obviously as long as they are a tenant in the building, grass can't be installed. That's all Beeston is saying, and it's far from "terrible."

Thanks for the link. I also don't think the article is as terrible as it was originally portrayed.

[Invader]

I agree Griffin's article is just filler, suitable only to line the budgie cage. His story makes little sense, it's like Griffin lives in a bubble and is totally oblivious to the fact the Argos signed a 5-year lease at RC last year and have been given notice to leave after 2017. Griffin's conclusion: "But before grass for the Jays can happen, the question is, how do you solve a problem like the Argos?" Ummm, perhaps with the Argos building a new stadium or relocating to BMO? (I think I heard something about that somewhere...)

I believe the purpose of Griffin's opinion piece was to dump on the Argos and portray them as a "problem", for some reason.

[Mulder]

I agree Griffin's article is just filler, suitable only to line the budgie cage. His story makes little sense, it's like Griffin lives in a bubble and is totally oblivious to the fact the Argos signed a 5-year lease at RC last year and have been given notice to leave after 2017. Griffin's conclusion: "But before grass for the Jays can happen, the question is, how do you solve a problem like the Argos?" Ummm, perhaps with the Argos building a new stadium or relocating to BMO? (I think I heard something about that somewhere...)

I believe the purpose of Griffin's opinion piece was to dump on the Argos and portray them as a "problem", for some reason.

Not surprising coming from The Star. They are also no friend of the CFL. Completely Negative.

[gilthethrill]

Not surprising coming from The Star. They are also no friend of the CFL. Completely Negative.

Sad but true. I go through old Star sport sections from the 80's. Rick Matsumoto and Wayne Parrish (btw what ever happened to him Paul Woods) passionately covered the Argos. I wonder if all this will change if/when MLSE purchases the storied Boatmen.

[paulwoods13]

Sad but true. I go through old Star sport sections from the 80's. Rick Matsumoto and Wayne Parrish (btw what ever happened to him Paul Woods) passionately covered the Argos. I wonder if all this will change if/when MLSE purchases the storied Boatmen.

Wayne is now a senior executive with Postmedia and I think he is also chairman of the board of Basketball Canada. IIRC he was recruited away from the Star to become sports ed of the Sun and eventually moved into an exec role with the Sun before moving to Postmedia (publisher of Natl Post and other quality titles across the country).

[ArgoRavi]

Wayne is now a senior executive with Postmedia and I think he is also chairman of the board of Basketball Canada. IIRC he was recruited away from the Star to become sports ed of the Sun and eventually moved into an exec role with the Sun before moving to Postmedia (publisher of Natl Post and other quality titles across the country).

I seem to recall Parrish heading to the Sun at around the same time that John Robertson moved from the Sun to the Star. I recall some jokes that it was a trade of columnists.

[paulwoods13]

I seem to recall Parrish heading to the Sun at around the same time that John Robertson moved from the Sun to the Star. I recall some jokes that it was a trade of columnists.

The late John Robertson -- he just died.

[ArgoRavi]

The late John Robertson -- he just died.

I had not heard that, Paul. Robertson was an interesting character on the Toronto sports media scene during the 1980s. He primarily wrote about the Blue Jays in the Star but did write some memorable columns about the Argos as they marched towards the Grey Cup game in 1987.

[argotom]

I seem to recall Parrish heading to the Sun at around the same time that John Robertson moved from the Sun to the Star. I recall some jokes that it was a trade of columnists.


Parrish was always a basketball guy and I d not recall him being friendly wit the CFL.

[Argo57]

The late John Robertson -- he just died.

Sad news Paul.
Miss the old school "character" guys like Robertson and Jim Hunt!!

[paulwoods13]

Parrish was always a basketball guy and I d not recall him being friendly wit the CFL.

You obviously haven't read my book. He wrote tons about the CFL when he was with the Star.

[Argo]

Not surprising coming from The Star. They are also no friend of the CFL. Completely Negative.

The Star is by-and-large the only newspaper in the country that practices genuine investigative journalism: it gets results, brings things to light, and sometimes actually helps people.
What a refreshing change from the usual dumbed-down, utterly synchophantic media organs.

OTOH, the Star really should improve and expand its coverage of the CFL. Even if general interest in the league in the Star's market isn't exactly overwhelming at present, covering the Argonauts and the league doesn't require a great deal of resources. Better coverage and, in effect, another feedback loop could be good for all concerned: the Star, Toronto-region CFL fans, and the league.

[Neely2005]

The Star is by-and-large the only newspaper in the country that practices genuine investigative journalism: it gets results, brings things to light, and sometimes actually helps people.
What a refreshing change from the usual dumbed-down, utterly synchophantic media organs.

OTOH, the Star really should improve and expand its coverage of the CFL. Even if general interest in the league in the Star's market isn't exactly overwhelming at present, covering the Argonauts and the league doesn't require a great deal of resources. Better coverage and, in effect, another feedback loop could be good for all concerned: the Star, Toronto-region CFL fans, and the league.

Sure as long as it fits their agenda. The Star is the most biased newspaper in Canada and if it continues to lose readers and money the way that it has been it will soon be out of business.

[argotom]

Sure as long as it fits their agenda. The Star is the most biased newspaper in Canada and if it continues to lose readers and money the way that it has been it will soon be out of business.


I used to play flag football with one of the Star editors.
He would often question their sports policy and why the CFL and Argos would not garner better coverage.
The anti CFL bias came from very high up there was nothing he could do to change same.

[bluto]

going to be fun watching the Star kiss the Argo's ass after the MLSE buys them

[zontar]

Sad but true. I go through old Star sport sections from the 80's. Rick Matsumoto and Wayne Parrish (btw what ever happened to him Paul Woods) passionately covered the Argos. I wonder if all this will change if/when MLSE purchases the storied Boatmen.

Parrish is high up in Sun Media corporate.,iirc

Wasnt Parrish a co host of a Argos weekly show on CFTO ? Forgot who the host was - he would play the upbeat, straight man to Parrish's cranky tell it like it is schtick. Am I remembering this right ?

[paulwoods13]

Parrish is high up in Sun Media corporate.,iirc

Wasnt Parrish a co host of a Argos weekly show on CFTO ? Forgot who the host was - he would play the upbeat, straight man to Parrish's cranky tell it like it is schtick. Am I remembering this right ?

Not the host. He and radio play-by-play guy Bob Bratina (now the embattled mayor of Hamilton) would do a point/counter-point debate, often sitting on a patio sipping Carlsberg, in Argonauts This Week (1985).

As I noted above, Wayne left Sun Media years ago (long before it was called sun Media) and now works as an exec for Postmedia as well as being CEO of Basketball Canada.


Sure as long as it fits their agenda. The Star is the most biased newspaper in Canada and if it continues to lose readers and money the way that it has been it will soon be out of business.

I for one am happy that their "agenda" includes exposing the behaviour of the mayor of Toronto.

[Neely2005]

Not the host. He and radio play-by-play guy Bob Bratina (now the embattled mayor of Hamilton) would do a point/counter-point debate, often sitting on a patio sipping Carlsberg, in Argonauts This Week (1985).

As I noted above, Wayne left Sun Media years ago (long before it was called sun Media) and now works as an exec for Postmedia as well as being CEO of Basketball Canada.



I for one am happy that their "agenda" includes exposing the behaviour of the mayor of Toronto.

To bad that the Red Star agenda doesn't apply to corrupt liberal politicians too.

This is what passes for journalism at the Red Star these days:

http://www.peterkent.ca/news/my-response-to-toronto-stars-comment-or-else-letter

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/10/some-civic-leaders-irked-by-toronto-star-letter-asking-for-their-view-on-rob-ford/

[zontar]

Not the host. He and radio play-by-play guy Bob Bratina (now the embattled mayor of Hamilton) would do a point/counter-point debate, often sitting on a patio sipping Carlsberg, in Argonauts This Week (1985).
.

That must have been it. Thanks,

Carl the Parrot anyone ?

[eiben35]

Great news Argo fans. The sale to MLSE is immenent. Could be done in the next couple of days.

[paulwoods13]

To bad that the Red Star agenda doesn't apply to corrupt liberal politicians too.

This is what passes for journalism at the Red Star these days:

http://www.peterkent.ca/news/my-response-to-toronto-stars-comment-or-else-letter

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/10/some-civic-leaders-irked-by-toronto-star-letter-asking-for-their-view-on-rob-ford/

This is way off-topic and should probably be moved to a different thread in a different forum, but IMO if there was any other politician doing what Rob Ford clearly does, no matter what side of the political spectrum he/she was on, the media -- not just the Star but all media -- would be all over it. (And BTW, it is not just the "Red Star" that has condemned Ford for his appalling behaviour. Even the conservative-leaning Sun has called for him to step down.) As for the single example you posted above as indicative of the Star's journalism, I am glad someone asked civic and community leaders for their views on Ford. What he has done in office deserves to be condemned from every corner of society, and people atop the power grid should be the first in line to condemn him.

[Neely2005]

This is way off-topic and should probably be moved to a different thread in a different forum, but IMO if there was any other politician doing what Rob Ford clearly does, no matter what side of the political spectrum he/she was on, the media -- not just the Star but all media -- would be all over it. (And BTW, it is not just the "Red Star" that has condemned Ford for his appalling behaviour. Even the conservative-leaning Sun has called for him to step down.) As for the single example you posted above as indicative of the Star's journalism, I am glad someone asked civic and community leaders for their views on Ford. What he has done in office deserves to be condemned from every corner of society, and people atop the power grid should be the first in line to condemn him.

To bad the Red Star doesn't put the same energy into the Gas Plant scandal, the ORNGE Air Scandal, the OLG scandal, the E-Health scandal....

Why aren't they peering over the Premier's fence or tailing her parents up to their cottage?

[paulwoods13]

To bad the Red Star doesn't put the same energy into the Gas Plant scandal, the ORNGE Air Scandal, the OLG scandal, the E-Health scandal....

Why aren't they peering over the Premier's fence or tailing her parents up to their cottage?

You are kidding, right? It was the Star that broke most of the major news in ORNGE and e-health.

http://www.thestar.com/news/investigations/ornge.html
http://www.thestar.com/news/stardispatches/2012/11/08/star_dispatches_ornge_the_star_investigation_that_ broke_the_story.html
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2011/05/18/hundreds_at_ehealth_ontario_get_bonus_raise_despit e_call_for_wage_freeze.html

As for peering over the premier's fence -- if she tried to buy a public piece of land next to her own property, I would darn well expect news organizations to go and inspect that piece of public land. Which is what the Star did. There was no peering over the fence, despite Ford's lie to the contrary (which he finally retracted, only when faced with a libel suit that he clearly was going to lose). The willingness of "Ford Nation" people to overlook or excuse behaviour that is completely unacceptable never ceases to amaze.

[argomANIA]

Neely2005 and paulwoods13 Can we please keep this on topic and not get into politics? Anymore posts regarding this will be deleted.

Thanks!

[paulwoods13]

Neely2005 and paulwoods13 Can we please keep this on topic and not get into politics? Anymore posts regarding this will be deleted.

Thanks!

Understood.

[ArgoRavi]

Great news Argo fans. The sale to MLSE is immenent. Could be done in the next couple of days.

I sure hope so as this deal just needs to get done a.s.a.p. I have had enough of all of the speculation at this point. The Argos also need to know what is happening so that they can plan accordingly including actually having a place to train and practise.

[OV Argo]

Great news Argo fans. The sale to MLSE is immenent. Could be done in the next couple of days.

Yeah - just swell, er, frickin' super. A gang of corporate clowns & wannabes owning the Argos. Whatever.

[AngeloV]

Yeah - just swell, er, frickin' super. A gang of corporate clowns & wannabes owning the Argos. Whatever.

Ah, don't let it ruin your day OV.

[doubleblue]

I am getting a little concerned that this possible sale to MLSE Is affecting Jim Barker's recruiting or signing FA's. He has announced the signing of 7 new Imports, all with good credentials from Div I and some NFL time. But not big ticket signings IMO. Also a couple of low end the pay scale Canadians. He seems to be in limbo maybe not knowing what he can spend. Braley may have put the brakes on any new spending until the sale is finalized. Hope not but things are pretty quiet in Argo Land.

[jerrym]

I am getting a little concerned that this possible sale to MLSE Is affecting Jim Barker's recruiting or signing FA's. He has announced the signing of 7 new Imports, all with good credentials from Div I and some NFL time. But not big ticket signings IMO. Also a couple of low end the pay scale Canadians. He seems to be in limbo maybe not knowing what he can spend. Braley may have put the brakes on any new spending until the sale is finalized. Hope not but things are pretty quiet in Argo Land.

I think you're dead on. If the MLSE deal does go through, lets hope they jump into the market quickly before it dries up.

[294life]

Well well well look who's at the raptors game tonight. Braley and Tannenbaum just got their close up together on TSN.

No doubt discussing the sale of argofans.com to a leafs forum

[T-Bone]

Well well well look who's at the raptors game tonight. Braley and Tannenbaum just got their close up together on TSN.

No doubt discussing the sale of argofans.com to a leafs forum
If that's the case someone's gonna do alright in the finance department.

[ArgoRavi]

Well well well look who's at the raptors game tonight. Braley and Tannenbaum just got their close up together on TSN.

No doubt discussing the sale of argofans.com to a leafs forum

And this only a few weeks after Chris Rudge was sitting right behind the Leaf bench. Something is brewing. This just needs to get done once and for all.

[OV Argo]

And this only a few weeks after Chris Rudge was sitting right behind the Leaf bench. Something is brewing. This just needs to get done once and for all.

I really want a genius like Larry T as Argo owner; maybe down the road he can put together a deal to get TO a world-class NFL franchise and allow CFL teams to become NFL farm teams - the Argos could supply back-ups to be called-up when the major league team has some injury problems and such. And the Argos could be allowed to call-down NFL 3rd stringers and bench warmers and hand them starting jobs when it is seen fit. ;o)

[argolio]

And this only a few weeks after Chris Rudge was sitting right behind the Leaf bench. Something is brewing. This just needs to get done once and for all.After the Olympics I'm guessing.

[Argocister]

I really want a genius like Larry T as Argo owner; maybe down the road he can put together a deal to get TO a world-class NFL franchise and allow CFL teams to become NFL farm teams - the Argos could supply back-ups to be called-up when the major league team has some injury problems and such. And the Argos could be allowed to call-down NFL 3rd stringers and bench warmers and hand them starting jobs when it is seen fit. ;o)

:sick: I'm nauseous just thinking of this .... Even if sarcasm is the tone of the post.

[OV Argo]

:sick: I'm nauseous just thinking of this .... Even if sarcasm is the tone of the post.


Well yeah - i like sarcasm; and of course a great CFL fan like Larry would only have the Argos/CFL first at heart - so, not to worry.

[LLB997]

After the Olympics I'm guessing. True, I do not want news of an imminent Argos sale affecting our women's slopestyle team. They have enough to think about.

[Will]

True, I do not want news of an imminent Argos sale affecting our women's slopestyle team. They have enough to think about.

Yes, they had to think about their gold and bronze medals!

[ArgoRavi]

With the Olympics now over, will we be hearing of the completion of this sale within the next week or two?

[Mulder]

With the Olympics now over, will we be hearing of the completion of this sale within the next week or two?

I'd except it to be more of a wait. With the public meeting next week and then staff will have to come up with recommendations (maybe 2-4 weeks after that)

It would probably be more of a joint announcement, "We are expanding BMO field & buying the Argos" instead of 2 different annoucements

[Invader]

The Argos can still move to BMO without MLSE or Tannenbaum buying the team. The city approached MLSE about accommodating the Argos at BMO, which Leiweke said as good partners they would investigate. MLSE rejected buying the Argos in a late Dec. board meeting.

[Treblecharger1]

They rejected the 20m offer from Braley. I think the team will end up selling for around 12 million with a 2 grey cups grtd from the league in the next 10 years.

[Mulder]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Is Rogers finally ready to buy the Argonauts? Announcement tomorrow?</p>&mdash; Bob McCown (@FadooBobcat) <a href="https://twitter.com/FadooBobcat/statuses/438054771791241216">February 24, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Ron]

LOL, Rogers buys them and they stay at Skydome!

[doubleblue]

<iframe width="500" height="186" title="Embedded Tweet" class="twitter-tweet twitter-tweet-rendered" id="twitter-widget-0" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" style="border-width: 1px; border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(238, 238, 238) rgb(221, 221, 221) rgb(187, 187, 187); margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px; border-radius: 5px; border-image: none; display: block; visibility: visible; position: static; min-width: 220px; max-width: 99%; box-shadow: 0px 1px 3px rgba(0,0,0,0.15);" allowtransparency="true"></iframe>
<script src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8" async=""></script><iframe id="rufous-sandbox" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" style="display: none;" allowtransparency="true"></iframe>

This has a little more legs if McCowan is talking about it. He is a good friend of Keith Pelley. The Argos were more of a concern in Toronto when Pelley was running the Ship.

[BATKINSON001]

well here's hoping for the best.

[argonaut11xx]

I could care less who owns the Argonauts, as long as they pay the bill's, and keep the NFL out of Canada.

While i love ANY kind of football, the NFL has no business in Canada, we have a great,unique league, which is the best brand of football on this planet.

NFL = all sizzle, CFL = all Steak, just wrapped in a brown paper bag for 40+ yrs,(add that to the Canadian inferioriity complex = the young sheeple of the GTA not appreciating OUR league like they should)

[Neely2005]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Is Rogers finally ready to buy the Argonauts? Announcement tomorrow?</p>&mdash; Bob McCown (@FadooBobcat) <a href="https://twitter.com/FadooBobcat/statuses/438054771791241216">February 24, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

MLSE (Rogers/Bell) deny announcement tomorrow re: Argos, but it will be on the agenda at board meeting this week.

4:57pm - 24 Feb 14

https://mobile.twitter.com/FadooBobcat/status/438070105495175168

[OV Argo]

Argo sale is held-off this week pending further negotiations (who is insane enough to pay 20 million dollars for a sports team that has been reportedly bleeding red ink for years and that can't draw much more than 20 thousand fans to game once every 2 weeks ???)

An Argofans. group lottery ticket wins the 50 $ million LotoMax this Friday ... and makes Mr. Braley an offer he can't refuse (sell to us or else you're able to find a tiger-cat head in your bed) - say around 1 million bucks (not really worth that but what the hey - thanks for rescuing the team when you did) = then, we're off to the races: with much improved smart marketing, great game-day experience for the fans and an always sharp & smart staff to run the football ops. Ta da !

:ohno:

[argotom]

I could care less who owns the Argonauts, as long as they pay the bill's, and keep the NFL out of Canada.

While i love ANY kind of football, the NFL has no business in Canada, we have a great,unique league, which is the best brand of football on this planet.

NFL = all sizzle, CFL = all Steak, just wrapped in a brown paper bag for 40+ yrs,(add that to the Canadian inferioriity complex = the young sheeple of the GTA not appreciating OUR league like they should)


Well said agree with you, save and except the love for me for any kind of football.
I would go even as far as legislating same if necessary.

[Invader]

Argo sale is held-off this week pending further negotiations (who is insane enough to pay 20 million dollars for a sports team that has been reportedly bleeding red ink for years and that can't draw much more than 20 thousand fans to game once every 2 weeks ???)

An Argofans. group lottery ticket wins the 50 $ million LotoMax this Friday ... and makes Mr. Braley an offer he can't refuse (sell to us or else you're able to find a tiger-cat head in your bed) - say around 1 million bucks (not really worth that but what the hey - thanks for rescuing the team when you did) = then, we're off to the races: with much improved smart marketing, great game-day experience for the fans and an always sharp & smart staff to run the football ops. Ta da !
I think you must have been listening to S. Brunt, OV, who recently claimed the Argos "were worthless".

Leiweke said TFC will be losing money (especially with their recent $100 million player acquisitions), so are they worth nothing? The Blue Jays were reportedly losing $50 million per year when Rogers bought them in 2000. Ted Rogers said he lost $300 million on the Jays in his first 8 years of ownership. So are the Jays worth nothing? (Forbes magazine has other ideas.) The NHL Florida Panthers are losing $500,000 per week and over half the NHL teams are losing money. Are they worthless too? The majority of NBA franchises are reportedly money-losers. Can you buy a NBA franchise for $1 million, for the opportunity to lose money? I don't think so.

CFL franchises have a proven value beyond their bottom-line. The Stamps sold a couple years ago with the franchise valued at $20 million. Mr. Braley said last week he's asking $40 million for the Lions. If the Argos can get two Grey Cup games over the next 10 years, coupled with the doubling of the TV contract and proper management (who could push for more sponsorships and have Argo merchandise available at major retailers, for example), the team will solidly be in the black and playing in an intimate natural-grassed BMO. The Argos would soon be matching the Lions in franchise value.

So the Argos aren't worthless and can't be bought for $1 million. That's just ancient history spouted by some media dinosaurs. The Argos are worth at least $10 million today, with the franchise value soon doubling to $20 million and higher. And you can take that to the bank!

[Mulder]

I think you must have been listening to S. Brunt, OV, who recently claimed the Argos "were worthless".

Leiweke said TFC will be losing money (especially with their recent $100 million player acquisitions), so are they worth nothing? The Blue Jays were reportedly losing $50 million per year when Rogers bought them in 2000. Ted Rogers said he lost $300 million on the Jays in his first 8 years of ownership. So are the Jays worth nothing? (Forbes magazine has other ideas.) The NHL Florida Panthers are losing $500,000 per week and over half the NHL teams are losing money. Are they worthless too? The majority of NBA franchises are reportedly money-losers. Can you buy a NBA franchise for $1 million, for the opportunity to lose money? I don't think so.

CFL franchises have a proven value beyond their bottom-line. The Stamps sold a couple years ago with the franchise valued at $20 million. Mr. Braley said last week he's asking $40 million for the Lions. If the Argos can get two Grey Cup games over the next 10 years, coupled with the doubling of the TV contract and proper management (who could push for more sponsorships and have Argo merchandise available at major retailers, for example), the team will solidly be in the black and playing in an intimate natural-grassed BMO. The Argos would soon be matching the Lions in franchise value.

So the Argos aren't worthless and can't be bought for $1 million. That's just ancient history spouted by some media dinosaurs. The Argos are worth at least $10 million today, with the franchise value soon doubling to $20 million and higher. And you can take that to the bank!

This is pretty much what I was going to say. Cohon said in Ottawa a few weeks ago that all but 1 team last season made money or broke even. I find it hard to believe that team one team that lost money wasn't Hamilton.

[Downtownfan]

Yesterday on the McCowan show Brunt and Bob spoke about his tweet for about 10 minutes (sorry, no link). McCowan is getting info "from on high," as it were. But mostly the usual claptrap about how the Argos lose money, and that the only "angle" that Brunt could think of motivating this purchase is the "NFL wants the Argos protected", therefore this is one step in the eventual (seemingly inevitable- ha ha) coming of an NFL franchise to Toronto. Brunt completely ignores or is completely ignorant of the fact that Braley was planning on a stadium with another municipality, which prompted MLSE to approach the Argos (at least as has been rumoured on this board). The "angle" that these "media personalities" are missing is that MLSE, which is heavily invested in concerts, does not want a competing venue in the GTA which would break its virtual monopoly on big name concerts (few serious acts go to the Skydome, as it completely sucks for concerts).

But this Brunt/McCowa conversation really meant that there was a slight tremor in the Force, though: These guys realize that MLSE purchasing the Argos is huge for the franchise, and Brunt even grudgingly admitted that it would make things better. The media narrative will have to change, at the very least from negative to neutral, which will be a huge step for the perception of the franchise.

Amazingly, Tim L.'s determination on this stuff may just lead to an era of off-field success for the Argos. Hopefully the team continues to do well on the field.

[OV Argo]

I think you must have been listening to S. Brunt, OV, who recently claimed the Argos "were worthless".

Leiweke said TFC will be losing money (especially with their recent $100 million player acquisitions), so are they worth nothing? The Blue Jays were reportedly losing $50 million per year when Rogers bought them in 2000. Ted Rogers said he lost $300 million on the Jays in his first 8 years of ownership. So are the Jays worth nothing? (Forbes magazine has other ideas.) The NHL Florida Panthers are losing $500,000 per week and over half the NHL teams are losing money. Are they worthless too? The majority of NBA franchises are reportedly money-losers. Can you buy a NBA franchise for $1 million, for the opportunity to lose money? I don't think so.

CFL franchises have a proven value beyond their bottom-line. The Stamps sold a couple years ago with the franchise valued at $20 million. Mr. Braley said last week he's asking $40 million for the Lions. If the Argos can get two Grey Cup games over the next 10 years, coupled with the doubling of the TV contract and proper management (who could push for more sponsorships and have Argo merchandise available at major retailers, for example), the team will solidly be in the black and playing in an intimate natural-grassed BMO. The Argos would soon be matching the Lions in franchise value.

So the Argos aren't worthless and can't be bought for $1 million. That's just ancient history spouted by some media dinosaurs. The Argos are worth at least $10 million today, with the franchise value soon doubling to $20 million and higher. And you can take that to the bank!


Sorry - I basically believe little to nothing of what I read in the media with regards to pro sports financial information or figures. And there's a lot of supposed experts in the media out there who spout garbage to some lemmings willing to believe what they are told. Idiots like Brunt and McCown are from a long line of Toronto media clowns & wannabes who find it fashionable to bash the Argos in Toronnawannabeland. Part of a big long-time problem the Argos/CFL have been up against in that part of the Canadian map = really sad & pathetic IMO.

The Argos can be worth whatever someone is willing to pay for them. Again though - what did Mr. Braley pay to acquire the Argos ? - anybody got some documented evidence of that ? - no eh; were they worth 0$ a few years back?

[mac_davy]

Yesterday on the McCowan show Brunt and Bob spoke about his tweet for about 10 minutes (sorry, no link). McCowan is getting info "from on high," as it were. But mostly the usual claptrap about how the Argos lose money, and that the only "angle" that Brunt could think of motivating this purchase is the "NFL wants the Argos protected", therefore this is one step in the eventual (seemingly inevitable- ha ha) coming of an NFL franchise to Toronto. Brunt completely ignores or is completely ignorant of the fact that Braley was planning on a stadium with another municipality, which prompted MLSE to approach the Argos (at least as has been rumoured on this board). The "angle" that these "media personalities" are missing is that MLSE, which is heavily invested in concerts, does not want a competing venue in the GTA which would break its virtual monopoly on big name concerts (few serious acts go to the Skydome, as it completely sucks for concerts).

But this Brunt/McCowa conversation really meant that there was a slight tremor in the Force, though: These guys realize that MLSE purchasing the Argos is huge for the franchise, and Brunt even grudgingly admitted that it would make things better. The media narrative will have to change, at the very least from negative to neutral, which will be a huge step for the perception of the franchise.
Amazingly, Tim L.'s determination on this stuff may just lead to an era of off-field success for the Argos. Hopefully the team continues to do well on the field.
this is bang on, MLSE is buying the argos for all those reasons, and the eventual NFL crap is just that, its the last gasp of sour grapes. Once MLSE has invested in the renovations of BMO and the Argos, does any one really believe they the will then jeopardize it, this inst a stepping stone. I'm convinced in the right hand and well marketed the ARGOs are a cash cow, there's an appetite for football in Toronto, all you have to do is get rid of the negativity in the media and convince the population its cool to like the argos again, and you have 6 million people to draw from, if the riders can make 10 million in profits ( with the new TV contract), then argos can pull in potentially 20 to 25 million, its just a matter of changing the perceptions, and MLSE has the tools to do this. I think we are witnessing the dawn of a new area of the CFL, with groups like MLSE interested, the flames ownership in Calgary, Canucks sports and entertainment looking at the lions, and Jeff Hunts group in Ottawa, your seeing big professional sports marketing groups taking notice of the potentials.

Back to the NFL crap, do these two not pay attention, the Bills TO failed, theres talk of a new stadium in upstate new york, Roger Goodell just said their focus is LA and London, no mention of Toronto. There is no suitable stadium, or commitment to build one. The above mentioned ownership groups would put pressure to block such a move, the back lash and negativity from the Canadian public would put the franchises profitability at risk, not something you want when your betting on 2.5 billion dollars.

[bluto]

unforeseen benefit (to Rogers) of the Rogers Agenda (ie: trash/belittle/ignore the Argos and the CFL):

when attempting to buy something (a home, a car, a sports franchise, etc), it can only help your bargaining position to lower the perceived value of whatever you are trying to buy.

[Ron]

NFL = all sizzle, CFL = all Steak,

Clearly you don't watch the NFL if you call it just sizzle. They had a ton of "steak" games the last few seasons.

[argonaut11xx]

Clearly you don't watch the NFL if you call it just sizzle. They had a ton of "steak" games the last few seasons.

Hey Ron, i will say that the games have improved drastically over the past 5yrs or so...but still no comparison to the excitement of CFL football.

[Fumblitis]

I'm a little confused. Stephen Brunt, according to this fan forum, is very hostile toward the CFL and the Argos. However, when he was out here in Regina a couple of years ago promoting his book, he appeared on a local radio station. During the interview he seemed like he was pro CFL and admitted he was a TiCats fan. What is the deal...is he pro CFL or not? Anyone from the GTA got any insight regarding this?

[Will]

I frankly get the sense that sometimes on the FAN isn't necessarily anti-CFL but it is specifically anti-Argo for whatever reason.

[Downtownfan]

I think Brunt is simply situational on this stuff. There is no doubt that he is a self-admitted Ti-Cats fan, and he did get contracted by the League to write the 100 Grey Cups book (a move by Cohon to get him onside, I suspect). But his comments about the off-field Argos are often unduly negative (especially in comparison to the other Toronto teams-- he has NEVER once spoken about financial losses by the Jays or TFC, for instance) and he is clearly hostile towards Braley (as is McCowan, especially given Bob's connections to C&S). The last point is even weirder, considering that Braley had donated over $60 million to various institutions in Brunt's "hometown."

Anyways, the guy is clearly not an Argos fan, but when it comes to the League itself, there is a little bit too much interest in the negative narrative-- if he was a bit more balanced, he would, for instance, talk more about the amazing TV numbers, the new TV contract, the new stadiums, etc. One other example is his undying belief that the NFL is coming to Toronto, despite all evidence to the contrary. Just because a few billionaires "want" something to happen, doesn't mean it will-- but Brunt is nonetheless convinced. At least on this point, McCowan is more realistic.

I think he is also situational in when he talks about the League: out in the "boonies" he is really pro-CFL, because that's his audience; but in the "big city," and when he is on the FAN especially, he is negative.

[paulwoods13]

I disagree with most of Downtownfan's note (although I respect his right to that perspective). Brunt is a journalist and as such he reports (and, as a columnist/commentator, comments on) what he sees and hears. He has said many positive and many negative things about the CFL and the Argos over the years, and both positive and negative have usually been warranted. I find it impossible to believe he has never said anything negative about the finances of TFC or the Jays, but the only way to disprove that would be to review everything he has ever said and written, which of course is impossible. I agree he has tended in recent years to support the notion that the NFL is likely coming to Toronto, but he's not the only journalist/commentator who has taken that stance, and as long as the question remains unresolved it's one of two possibilities, both of which can be both defended and challenged.

[Downtownfan]

As I said, Brunt is not an Argo fan, which is fine; but he is decidedly not balanced in the way that he talks about the off-field stuff, or often the league itself, and certainly not the NFL to Toronto stuff. A couple of weeks ago on the Tim and Sid show, he said the Argos were worth "nothing"; on Monday, when faced with the possibility that MLSE was about to buy the team for some figure (McCowan suggested $10 million, I think) he said, "I don't know what they are worth." There is never a willingness, even for the sake of argument, to take the other (positive) side. Maybe I would give him the benefit of the doubt if he was a bit more balanced towards the Argos. I do give him credit for the good piece he wrote on Cornish in the SN magazine, which I think did more than anything to get Jon the Lou Marsh. Sometimes, Brunt can be a very good writer. But when it comes to the Argos off field stuff, there is clearly something going on there.

Sure, I understand that "both sides" can be present in the never-ending NFL to Toronto debate-- it will be that way until Wilson dies and someone in Buffalo buys the team, and the yappers can finally shut the hell up. But he has a journalistic responsibility to actually do some research and know what he is talking about when it comes to the Argos off-field situation. Yes, maybe the team has lost money, but to make numbers up is completely irresponsible, as it is to opine they are worth "nothing"-- they are worth whatever anyone is willing to pay for them. So, for him to spout off "opinion," then for others to hide behind "journalism" is unfair. Without wanting to offend you Paul, because I know you were a practicing journalist for a long time and will eventually get copy of your book (its on my book order list!), he may have at one point been a journalist, but is not really anymore, he's a sports writer-- world of difference.

If he were a journalist he would have, for instance, "reported" on the actual losses that the Bills in Toronto have incurred with the same breathless abandon. What about the actual attendance figures for that disaster? Why not? Balance means being fair, and writing all sides, but we get crickets on some stuff, a never-ending litany of mistruths and opinions on others. Balance? Not when it comes to the Argos off-field situation, or the NFL in Toronto.

[Tau Ceti]

I disagree with most of Downtownfan's note (although I respect his right to that perspective). Brunt is a journalist and as such he reports (and, as a columnist/commentator, comments on) what he sees and hears. He has said many positive and many negative things about the CFL and the Argos over the years, and both positive and negative have usually been warranted. I find it impossible to believe he has never said anything negative about the finances of TFC or the Jays, but the only way to disprove that would be to review everything he has ever said and written, which of course is impossible. I agree he has tended in recent years to support the notion that the NFL is likely coming to Toronto, but he's not the only journalist/commentator who has taken that stance, and as long as the question remains unresolved it's one of two possibilities, both of which can be both defended and challenged.

I think Brunt gets unnecessarily slagged on this thread. He's written a book about the Grey Cup and wears his Ticat support on his sleeve. He's certainly in the pro-CFL camp and is entitled to be critical sometimes. That said, I find he tends to modify his stance when in the booth with McCowan. If McCowan is critical of something then Brunt tends to follow his lead.

[T-Bone]

I find it impossible to believe he has never said anything negative about the finances of TFC or the Jays, but the only way to disprove that would be to review everything he has ever said and written, which of course is impossible.
Sorry Paul but that is a bit of a ridiculous statement. Though Downtownfan's claim is ridiculous and the burden of proof falls on him to prove it, you don't need to read or listen to everything Brunt has ever written or said. You could do a Google search to try and find a Brunt article that supports your point. This article, No room for Argos at new soccer stadium (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/brunt-no-room-for-argos-at-new-soccer-stadium/article1111476/) which I have never read before today seems to lean pro Argo to me.

[Fumblitis]

I think Brunt gets unnecessarily slagged on this thread. He's written a book about the Grey Cup and wears his Ticat support on his sleeve. He's certainly in the pro-CFL camp and is entitled to be critical sometimes. That said, I find he tends to modify his stance when in the booth with McCowan. If McCowan is critical of something then Brunt tends to follow his lead. That wouldn't surprise me that he tows the line with McGowan. We get Prime Time Sports out here on weeknights and have listened on several occasions. I only heard them mention the CFL once for about two minutes when the Argos won in '12.

[Neely2005]

That wouldn't surprise me that he tows the line with McGowan. We get Prime Time Sports out here on weeknights and have listened on several occasions. I only heard them mention the CFL once for about two minutes when the Argos won in '12.

This nonsense about McCown really needs to stop. He interviews people from the CFL regularly. He talks about the CFL regularly. Hell he had Tom Higgins on yesterday:

Listen (http://pmd.fan590.com/podcasts/pts/pt_20140225_165411--Prime-Time-Sports---February-25th---4pm.mp3) Prime Time Sports - February 25th - 4pm
February 25th, 4 pm: Former Raptors head coach Butch Carter, Hockey Canada CEO and President Bob Nicholson and new Montreal Alouettes head coach Tom Higgins.

I've posted numerous other examples in the Rogers Thread in the past too:

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?1802-Rogers-anti-CFL-agenda/page6

[Downtownfan]

OK, maybe I overstated when I said he has never spoken about Jays or TFC losses, I should have said that I never recall him doing so. But I do wish, as I said above, that Brunt would bring more balance to his Argos and NFL to Toronto commentary.

Of course, all this points to a bigger issue, which is the almost complete "sovietization" of the sports media in Toronto-- with the purchase of the Argos by MLSE, every team save for the Rock will be owned by one or two gigantic media conglomerates. Virtually every reporter and writer will also work for these media conglomerates, even if they work for newspapers like the Star (eg Cox, Feschuk) or the Globe (e.g. Blair, though he is leaving the Globe). I think this is a pretty big problem, and even though the Argos may benefit from being under this umbrella (they also unfairly suffered from being outside of it), I think its completely unhealthy. Though many will claim that all the journalists who work for the same firms that own the teams that they are reporting upon will retain their journalistic independence, I can't help but feel that there is and will continue to be a lot of self-editing and unwillingness to ask hard questions.

[Invader]

I think Brunt is simply situational on this stuff. There is no doubt that he is a self-admitted Ti-Cats fan, and he did get contracted by the League to write the 100 Grey Cups book (a move by Cohon to get him onside, I suspect). But his comments about the off-field Argos are often unduly negative (especially in comparison to the other Toronto teams-- he has NEVER once spoken about financial losses by the Jays or TFC, for instance) and he is clearly hostile towards Braley (as is McCowan, especially given Bob's connections to C&S). The last point is even weirder, considering that Braley had donated over $60 million to various institutions in Brunt's "hometown."

Anyways, the guy is clearly not an Argos fan, but when it comes to the League itself, there is a little bit too much interest in the negative narrative-- if he was a bit more balanced, he would, for instance, talk more about the amazing TV numbers, the new TV contract, the new stadiums, etc. One other example is his undying belief that the NFL is coming to Toronto, despite all evidence to the contrary. Just because a few billionaires "want" something to happen, doesn't mean it will-- but Brunt is nonetheless convinced. At least on this point, McCowan is more realistic.

I think he is also situational in when he talks about the League: out in the "boonies" he is really pro-CFL, because that's his audience; but in the "big city," and when he is on the FAN especially, he is negative.
This is 100% correct. Brunt was a frequent guest on sports radio stations across Canada. His CFL narrative differed greatly depending on which city he was being broadcast. In Regina he was pro-CFL, grew up a Ticats fan, always loved the "quirky" CFL, used to have seasons tickets...while in Toronto he is sardonic and negative whenever the Argos and CFL are "disgust". But Brunt pretty much ignores the CFL today, other than a few biting quips, focusing on the Jays and now NHL, since he's been "officially" been hired as a Rogers spokesman.

I think Brunt's fanatical devotion to the Bills relocating to Toronto, which has been his cause de celebre for over a decade, is because he hopes to land a lucrative P.R. position with the NFL team. This would likely triple his Rogers stipend.

Brunt was particularly ruthless against the Argos when the Bills in Toronto series was first announced. At the G&M he continually quoted a "source in the league office" who claimed the Argos must move to a "phantom stadium" in London or Mississauga because of the Bills, along with repeated slags against the Argos and CFL. His 2011 Grey Cup pre-game diatribe against the league on Sportsnet was disgusting and inappropriate on the CFL's biggest day. That's when he said (and wrote) "you'll be able to hear the crickets chirping at Grey Cup in Toronto" (because the interest was so low). In fact the 100th Grey Cup was the most successful, popular and lucrative Grey Cup in history.

I heard Brunt say only weeks ago on PTS that the Argos were "worthless" and there was no interest in the team in Toronto...and so on.

Does this sound like an impartial commentator or somebody who "loves" the CFL?

[Rich]

As I have argued before, the question is not whether he "loves" or "hates" the CFL. That's kind of a childish way to frame the issue. The question is, does Brunt give the CFL the respect it deserves, and the answer is usually no.

Anyone who says, like Brunt did, that the 100 best QBs in football play in the NFL clearly is not giving the CFL its due. Someone who says that is someone who has not looked closely into the supply and demand of quality football players in North America, and is therefore underestimating the quality of players in the CFL.

The question to me is, has an intelligent guy like Brunt really not done his research enough to know that there are many near-NFL-quality players in the CFL, or does he say such things just to be controversial?

[paulwoods13]

A couple of weeks ago on the Tim and Sid show, he said the Argos were worth "nothing"; on Monday, when faced with the possibility that MLSE was about to buy the team for some figure (McCowan suggested $10 million, I think) he said, "I don't know what they are worth." There is never a willingness, even for the sake of argument, to take the other (positive) side.

If it's true he said they were worth "nothing," then he was clearly being stupid and hyperbolic. If it's true he subsequently said he did not know what they were worth, then he was at least telling the truth. They are worth whatever someone will pay for them, and until a price is established by a transaction, anything else is pure speculation. If by taking the positive side you mean he should have suggested they are worth some specific dollar figure, I disagree because doing so would again be nothing more than what so many posters here have engaged in -- pure speculation with no basis in specific fact.


But he has a journalistic responsibility to actually do some research and know what he is talking about when it comes to the Argos off-field situation. Yes, maybe the team has lost money, but to make numbers up is completely irresponsible, as it is to opine they are worth "nothing"-- they are worth whatever anyone is willing to pay for them. So, for him to spout off "opinion," then for others to hide behind "journalism" is unfair.

I would love to know what type of research could be done that would arrive at the truth with respect to how much the Argos have lost over the years. Unless someone had access to the team's books -- something no journalist or sports writer will ever have -- all anyone can do is speculate. It might be somewhat informed speculation based on dollar figures that are somewhat ascertainable, such as the ticket prices in different sections of the stadium, the reported value of the TV contract (precise amount of which has never been revealed by either the CFL or TSN/CTV) and so on, but there is no way of knowing with anything even approaching certainty how much the team has lost. (And yet it seems to be accepted by virtually everyone that the team has consistently lost money for years if not decades.)


Without wanting to offend you Paul, because I know you were a practicing journalist for a long time and will eventually get copy of your book (its on my book order list!), he may have at one point been a journalist, but is not really anymore, he's a sports writer-- world of difference.

No offence taken. I don't agree that being a sports writer means someone is not a journalist, but I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on that point.


If he were a journalist he would have, for instance, "reported" on the actual losses that the Bills in Toronto have incurred with the same breathless abandon. What about the actual attendance figures for that disaster? Why not? Balance means being fair, and writing all sides, but we get crickets on some stuff, a never-ending litany of mistruths and opinions on others. Balance? Not when it comes to the Argos off-field situation, or the NFL in Toronto.

Again, how does Brunt -- or any journalist -- get access to the actual losses of the Bills series? Has that info been revealed by the Bills or Rogers to anyone outside their own financial people? Has it ever been made available to journalists? As for actual attendance figures, I have seen many reports over the past five years estimating crowd sizes, and some suggesting that the crowd was papered. But again, these reports do not appear to be based on any objective "facts" but rather on either unattributed info or simple common sense. Has Brunt mentioned these things? I don't know. If he hasn't -- if everything he has ever written or said about the Bills in Toronto is positive (something I highly doubt, but obviously can't prove either way) -- then he is guilty of bad journalism.


Of course, all this points to a bigger issue, which is the almost complete "sovietization" of the sports media in Toronto-- with the purchase of the Argos by MLSE, every team save for the Rock will be owned by one or two gigantic media conglomerates. Virtually every reporter and writer will also work for these media conglomerates, even if they work for newspapers like the Star (eg Cox, Feschuk) or the Globe (e.g. Blair, though he is leaving the Globe). I think this is a pretty big problem, and even though the Argos may benefit from being under this umbrella (they also unfairly suffered from being outside of it), I think its completely unhealthy. Though many will claim that all the journalists who work for the same firms that own the teams that they are reporting upon will retain their journalistic independence, I can't help but feel that there is and will continue to be a lot of self-editing and unwillingness to ask hard questions.

On this point I completely agree. It is clear to me that the financial relationship that exists between team owners and some of the media outlets, as well as some of the reporters who are paid by those media outlets, has resulted in an eroded standard of journalism. I think there are gradations of how severe this is, but I have seen increasing evidence that the way stories are being reported and discussed is being influenced by the conflict of interest that naturally arises when you are trying to report on a business that pays you. There are ways to overcome this, but I have not seen any evidence that the Rogers-owned properties, at least, are making much effort to do so. Bell/CTV/TSN is somewhat cleaner, so far, but its reporting is just as vulnerable to this taint.


His 2011 Grey Cup pre-game diatribe against the league on Sportsnet was disgusting and inappropriate on the CFL's biggest day. That's when he said (and wrote) "you'll be able to hear the crickets chirping at Grey Cup in Toronto" (because the interest was so low). In fact the 100th Grey Cup was the most successful, popular and lucrative Grey Cup in history.

I don't know what Brunt said before the 2011 Grey Cup (it's not online and I don't seem to have recorded it), but here is what he said on the Friday before the 2012 Grey Cup, including both the animated essay he wrote and his interview comments afterwards. Seems to me there is nothing biased or untruthful in anything he said that day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAtCFmn9O24

[OV Argo]

Downtownfan is IMO bang-on here. And of course is Brunt is a fine journalist who is entitled to his opinions, including criticising the Argos / CFL; and he is free to fawn all over the allmighty NFL (with their so superior talent and 100 better QBs) and help with the cheerleading towards Toronna finally landing a world class NFL franchise.

A bit of balance on the sports reporting scene might be nice perhaps. Could anyone perhaps name a single Canadian sports media figure/"reporter" who is blatantly and consistently pro CFL, devotes themselves to tons of CFL coverage AND who goes out of their way to mock or cirticize the NHL, NFL and MLB? Not that there necessarily should be such an animal, but there could be; we do get to see plenty of the opposite, It's easy to spot all the anti-CFL types out there; and the negative or oft lacking coverage of the CFL is IMO THE single biggest factor that has contributed to the erosion of popularity and respect for the historic league - going back decades.

That this has happened to the CFL in it's own frickin' country speaks volumes IMO (an only in Canada type thing). Magnified in Toronna, so that the CFL/Argos are in tough there. I think it could be argued that the CFL has made somewhat of a comeback over the past number or years in regaining a bit of it's former popularity and prestige - in a lot of Canada perhaps, just not in Toronto. A few more CFL friendly and knowledgeable types in the media could help further there; to counteract all the anti-CFL types or plain lacking coverage - that so influence joe average lemming out there . ;o)

[paulwoods13]

I think it could be argued that the CFL has made somewhat of a comeback over the past number or years in regaining a bit of it's former popularity and prestige - in a lot of Canada perhaps, just not in Toronto.

That's precisely what Brunt says in the interview at the end of the clip I just posted. And yet according to some, we should not take anything he says seriously.

[argotom]

It's one thing to opine objectively based on facts on the issues, however the clear bias show by Brunt for the Bills and the NFL versus the Argos and the CFL is more comical if not sad and gives objective journalism a bad name.
This from a man that was an exceptional author in his own right.
One can therefore render his position worthless.

[Ron]

It's one thing to opine objectively based on facts on the issues, however the clear bias show by Brunt for the Bills and the NFL versus the Argos and the CFL is more comical if not sad and gives objective journalism a bad name.
This from a man that was an exceptional author in his own right.
One can therefore render his position worthless.

So, you're saying that someone who espouses a clear bias should be ignored and all should consider his position worthless?

[Ron]

McCown always got negative on the CFL at times. But he was always held in check by Shakey Hunt. Bob would go off on a really negative tangent and then Shakey would snap him back saying "And you're really a big CFL fan Robert."

Bob doesn't have that elder he respects to snap him back anymore. So he's just gotten crustier and crustier.

[argolio]

Before he interviewed Higgins, McCown mentioned that he had no or few CFL-related guests in 2013, and it was the fault of the Argos for pissing him off. I'm guessing that's a reference to Bob being excluded from 2012 Grey Cup festivities.

[Neely2005]

Before he interviewed Higgins, McCown mentioned that he had no or few CFL-related guests in 2013, and it was the fault of the Argos for pissing him off. I'm guessing that's a reference to Bob being excluded from 2012 Grey Cup festivities.

Yet I was able to post interviews with numerous CFL guests in just the last few months:



This nonsense about McCown really needs to stop. He interviews people from the CFL regularly. He talks about the CFL regularly. Hell he had Tom Higgins on yesterday:

Listen (http://pmd.fan590.com/podcasts/pts/pt_20140225_165411--Prime-Time-Sports---February-25th---4pm.mp3) Prime Time Sports - February 25th - 4pm
February 25th, 4 pm: Former Raptors head coach Butch Carter, Hockey Canada CEO and President Bob Nicholson and new Montreal Alouettes head coach Tom Higgins.

I've posted numerous other examples in the Rogers Thread in the past too:

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?1802-Rogers-anti-CFL-agenda/page6

[paulwoods13]

So, you're saying that someone who espouses a clear bias should be ignored and all should consider his position worthless?

Excellent question!

[T-Bone]

So, you're saying that someone who espouses a clear bias should be ignored and all should consider his position worthless?

https://stupidbadmemes.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/data-laughing.gif?w=630

[LLB997]

The thing I find funny about Brunt is that I believe he is unaware of the fact that the day the Argos fold, his precious Ticats will fold about 10 minutes after.

[matthew]

I'm a little confused. Stephen Brunt, according to this fan forum, is very hostile toward the CFL and the Argos. However, when he was out here in Regina a couple of years ago promoting his book, he appeared on a local radio station. During the interview he seemed like he was pro CFL and admitted he was a TiCats fan. What is the deal...is he pro CFL or not? Anyone from the GTA got any insight regarding this?

I too am often confused by the animosity towards stephen brunt.

He has done countless things for the league especially at Grey Cup time, was the emcee when the commissioner spoke at the Empire Club at the 100th GC so apparently the league does not think he hates them. He also narrated the last game at Ivor Wynne video which was really well done and participated in Engraved on a Nation. If he didn't care just a little, he'd hang up the phone when asked to do these things.

He also appeared on nearly every panel related to the CFL on fellow ticat fan Steve Paikin's old show Studio 2. So if we're picking on Brunt based on these facts (and others I have yet to mention) lets get an equally ridiculous anti-Paikin thread going. It would have as much validity as the anti-Brunt threads here.

So what if he hates the Argos, he is from Hamilton for crissakes! Most people that grew up or live there do. He likes his team as we do ours but his actions for the league speak louder than some words on here.

[Mulder]

I too am often confused by the animosity towards stephen brunt.

He has done countless things for the league especially at Grey Cup time, was the emcee when the commissioner spoke at the Empire Club at the 100th GC so apparently the league does not think he hates them. He also narrated the last game at Ivor Wynne video which was really well done and participated in Engraved on a Nation. If he didn't care just a little, he'd hang up the phone when asked to do these things.

He also appeared on nearly every panel related to the CFL on fellow ticat fan Steve Paikin's old show Studio 2. So if we're picking on Brunt based on these facts (and others I have yet to mention) lets get an equally ridiculous anti-Paikin thread going. It would have as much validity as the anti-Brunt threads here.

So what if he hates the Argos, he is from Hamilton for crissakes! Most people that grew up or live there do. He likes his team as we do ours but his actions for the league speak louder than some words on here.

I get the feeling Stephen Brunt's attitude vs the CFL & the Argos has more to do with who is is employed by, (Rogers) than what he may actually believe. IMO, you could also see the change in Jim Lang's attitude towards the CFL when he was let go by TheFan

[doubleblue]

I had noticed a change in McCowan's attitude towards the CFL since TSN acquired the rights and SN will be strictly Hockey, Baseball and B/Ball. He used to be a big backer of the CFL and always had the Argo Coach or GM on regularly. Then that all seemed to change. However, with the news of a possible sale to someone in the MLSE group he has started having a few CFL people on again. So yes I think it all starts at the top and runs down hill just like and other business or newspaper etc.

[Tau Ceti]

The thing I find funny about Brunt is that I believe he is unaware of the fact that the day the Argos fold, his precious Ticats will fold about 10 minutes after.

Why? I've never understood this domino theory.

[LLB997]

In the end, the disappearance of the Argos franchise will likely be due to some sort of NFL move into the region which I believe would ultimately put an end to the Ticats . Hamiton would throw their support behind the Toronto Towers the same way they do behind the Leafs and Jays. I have seen a few stories on CHCH over the last few years about how the Ticats were in the playoffs and all attention in the bars in the Hamilton area were focused on the sunday NFL games. Hamiltons CFL support is barely stronger than Toronto's despite what Brunt thinks.
As far as personal disdain for him. I personally think he sounds like a pompous douche based on what he says. He discusses things he could only know from 2nd hand sources and tries to come off as sounding like its his own personal recollection and 1st hand sports opinion. Perfect example was a few days ago discussing the 1966 Ali/Liston fight. Being so matter of fact about that fight with his opinion on Liston's integrity then following it up with "I was 6 yrs old at the time". I could go on Wikipedia too bud. My 2 cents

[paulwoods13]

Perfect example was a few days ago discussing the 1966 Ali/Liston fight. Being so matter of fact about that fight with his opinion on Liston's integrity then following it up with "I was 6 yrs old at the time"[/I]. I could go on Wikipedia too bud. My 2 cents

Brunt has interviewed dozens, maybe hundreds of people involved in boxing, including many of the biggest fighters since the 1960s -- even the great Muhammad Ali. He is probably the most knowledgeable and passionate journalist Canada has ever produced on the subject of the "sweet science." If you want to believe he bases his research on Wikipedia, be my guest but you are wrong. And BTW, how is your post describing him as a pompous douche etc. better than what you are accusing him of doing?

[AngeloV]

Brunt has interviewed dozens, maybe hundreds of people involved in boxing, including many of the biggest fighters since the 1960s -- even the great Muhammad Ali. He is probably the most knowledgeable and passionate journalist Canada has ever produced on the subject of the "sweet science." If you want to believe he bases his research on Wikipedia, be my guest but you are wrong. And BTW, how is your post describing him as a pompous douche etc. better than what you are accusing him of doing?

You be beat me to this Paul. I know for a fact that Brunt is tremendously well knowledged about boxing. As for the wiki reference, Brunt has been reporting on boxing long before wiki was around.

[LLB997]

Brunt has interviewed dozens, maybe hundreds of people involved in boxing, including many of the biggest fighters since the 1960s -- even the great Muhammad Ali. He is probably the most knowledgeable and passionate journalist Canada has ever produced on the subject of the "sweet science." If you want to believe he bases his research on Wikipedia, be my guest but you are wrong. And BTW, how is your post describing him as a pompous douche etc. better than what you are accusing him of doing?


First of all , I didn't describe him AS a pompous douche, I said in my opinion he sounds like one. As far as him interviewing hundreds of boxers, perfect, even less excuse for him not to cite his sources on national radio when calling a boxer corrupt especially when the guy is no longer around to defend the accusation.
I don't even live in Toronto full time and generally listen online to fan590/1050 to keep on the pulse of whats going on in the city I love . I do listen to WFAN in the car and of course they do not talk Toronto sports but the on air personalities are way more entertaining to listen to. Steve Somers who basically started the format is 1000 times more interesting and knowledgable on his worst day than Brunt or McClown. Toronto deserves alot better than these 2 imo, not just Argos fans.

[paulwoods13]

First of all , I didn't describe him AS a pompous douche, I said in my opinion he sounds like one.

What the heck is the difference? "He's not a pompous douche, he just plays one on the radio"?

I'd still like to know how your "comparison" is somehow better than what you are accusing him of doing.

[argotom]

So, you're saying that someone who espouses a clear bias should be ignored and all should consider his position worthless?

Absolutely, look who is signing his cheque.


I had noticed a change in McCowan's attitude towards the CFL since TSN acquired the rights and SN will be strictly Hockey, Baseball and B/Ball. He used to be a big backer of the CFL and always had the Argo Coach or GM on regularly. Then that all seemed to change. However, with the news of a possible sale to someone in the MLSE group he has started having a few CFL people on again. So yes I think it all starts at the top and runs down hill just like and other business or newspaper etc.

Except your theory falls apart with McCown.
He who prides himself and his m/o for all these years of pissing off whomever regardless of the management position?

[paulwoods13]

Absolutely, look who is signing his cheque.

Irony is alive and well.

[zontar]

McCowan and Brunt refelct the corporate direction of Rogers. Its not complicated. Sportsnet figured it was time to stop sharing and start confronting TSN and that meant ignoring and at times belittling TSNs big property. McCowan was only too accomodating as his Argo ties left with the former owners. Brunt was eager to get SN's magazine growing.

As high profile as they are Rogers is still their boss and still signs their cheques. They know how to take direction.

If they are starting to talk more that means SN's corp. policy towards the CFL maybe be thawing.

Anyone who has listened to the FAN since the early or mid 90s until now and still claim they havnt changed their approach to the CFL is either extremely unintelligent or , sorry, a liar.

[argolio]

Yet I was able to post interviews with numerous CFL guests in just the last few months:I should have written Argo-related guests. How many of those has he had in the last year? Gotta be at or close to zero.

Maybe Bob is justified in feeling snubbed by the Argos, but then again he's not exactly the most thick-skinned person.

[Neely2005]

I should have written Argo-related guests. How many of those has he had in the last year? Gotta be at or close to zero.

Maybe Bob is justified in feeling snubbed by the Argos, but then again he's not exactly the most thick-skinned person.

Fair enough. I don't listen regularly but off the top of my head I do know that he had Pinball on around Christmas.

[argolio]

Fair enough. I don't listen regularly but off the top of my head I do know that he had Pinball on around Christmas.That was mainly for Pinball's charity work, which Bob has a hand in. Argo-specific interviews have fallen off the map after 2012.

[Ballstothewall]

Fair enough. I don't listen regularly but off the top of my head I do know that he had Pinball on around Christmas.
Pinball comes on to talk about his foundation and building school, the CFL is never talked about for most of Pinballs interviews with Macown

[ArgoRavi]

That was mainly for Pinball's charity work, which Bob has a hand in. Argo-specific interviews have fallen off the map after 2012.

They might have fallen off the map even before that. IIRC, McCown did not want to discuss the Grey Cup much in 2012 even though that was THE dominant story in the city that week and he mostly talked about the Argos in negative tones even when they were discussed that week.

[R.J]

http://argosadmirals.com/2014/02/28/house-hunters-the-reds-double-blue-renovation/
http://argosadmirals.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/newbmo.png?w=610&h=338

[Mulder]

http://argosadmirals.com/2014/02/28/house-hunters-the-reds-double-blue-renovation/
http://argosadmirals.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/newbmo.png?w=610&h=338

Good graphic. It doesn't account for the existing scoreboard on the north side tho. Which my my measurements the CFL endzone would be 1-2m short of it.

[argonaut11xx]

As high profile as they are Rogers is still their boss and still signs their cheques. They know how to take direction.

Anyone who has listened to the FAN since the early or mid 90s until now and still claim they havnt changed their approach to the CFL is either extremely unintelligent or , sorry, a liar.

You are 100% correct Zontar....

Regarding who signs their cheques, they (Brunt, McCowan, et all,) sure know "what side their toast is buttered on"

As for the Fan590, i listened to it when it was 1430?..(i think), then it switched to 590...and the CFL talk/coverage was amazing, better than anyplace else (in the beginning)...the approach to the CFL has changed OBVIOUSLY, ...your comment "extremely unintelligent or , sorry a liar" is again bang on.

If you have half a brain, you can see media giants always try to "form" the opinions of the "sheeple" of Canada...

As an aside, the BEST sports morning show EVER...was when the Fan had Pat Marsden.

[Invader]

406
In this graphic 20 yd endzones were added to the existing soccer field, which is 115 yds long. The CFL field is narrower than the soccer pitch shown. There is basically no room for a moveable North endzone grandstand. 10 to 15 rows might fit in an elevated grandstand with the endzone runoff under the grandstand, like at B.C. Place. Seating could then be built right up to the edge of the endzone. Another 10 rows of removable seating could be placed in front for soccer games (filling in about half the CFL endzone). The video sign tower is basically on the North edge of the property. The South grandstand could be moveable on tracks with pallets of grass installed to cover the rails for football. The roof could be attached to the South grandstand and move in and out with the structure.

[ArgoRavi]

I just listened to Brunt's pearls of wisdom here: http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/brunt-something-cooking-with-mlse-argos/

This won't make the likes of ArgoTom feel any better about Brunt. :DBTW, this video is from over a month ago. I saw a couple of people mention it on Twitter today and I had thought that it was more recent.

[BATKINSON001]

I just listened to Brunt's pearls of wisdom here: http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/brunt-something-cooking-with-mlse-argos/

This won't make the likes of ArgoTom feel any better about Brunt. :DBTW, this video is from over a month ago. I saw a couple of people mention it on Twitter today and I had thought that it was more recent.

Not a fan of brunt. Needs his butt run over by Owens a few times...

[Ballstothewall]

I just listened to Brunt's pearls of wisdom here: http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/brunt-something-cooking-with-mlse-argos/

This won't make the likes of ArgoTom feel any better about Brunt. :DBTW, this video is from over a month ago. I saw a couple of people mention it on Twitter today and I had thought that it was more recent.
Yeah, that sure sounds like a guy who likes the CFL, a month before Petty was on, who said in his book, that MLSE would turn the Argos into a 1 million dollar profit team in their first year. Brunt even talked about this with Petty, but it seems he forgot all about that conversation he had, 1 month earlier with the formor head of MLSE.

[matthew]

A better link that doesn't freeze to same segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF3c2_HHT2g

[Fumblitis]

[QUOTE=flutie02;44196that he's h, that sure sounds like a guy who likes the CFL, a month before Petty was on, who said in his book, that MLSE would turn the Argos into a 1 million dollar profit team in their first year. Brunt even talked about this with Petty, but it seems he forgot all about that conversation he had, 1 month earlier with the formor head of MLSE.[/QUOTE]

I just get the sense that Brunt isn't necessarily anti CFL but that the CFL ship has sailed in Toronto. His attitude says that the CFL doesn't work in Toronto. I don't agree with that because the amount of "NFL only's" in Toronto on a per capital basis is on par with Saskatchewan according to those polls released at Grey Cup (Cause believe me there are "NFL only's" in Saskatchewan too.). A good football stadium with solid ownership and the Argos will flourish. Even if MLSE buys the Argos at least they will have top notch marketing.

[ArgoRavi]

I just get the sense that Brunt isn't necessarily anti CFL but that the CFL ship has sailed in Toronto. His attitude says that the CFL doesn't work in Toronto. I don't agree with that because the amount of "NFL only's" in Toronto on a per capital basis is on par with Saskatchewan according to those polls released at Grey Cup (Cause believe me there are "NFL only's" in Saskatchewan too.). A good football stadium with solid ownership and the Argos will flourish. Even if MLSE buys the Argos at least they will have top notch marketing.

You have identified one of the issues as to why the Argos haven't flourished in Toronto over the last three decades. There has never been a sustained, long-term marketing effort implemented. There have been short bursts of good marketing (1991 and 2004-07) which did yield some results but there has never been an owner who has said that they will commit to this franchise over the long-term - through thick and thin - and put in a sustained marketing effort. Until that happens and it does not work, only a fool would write-off the CFL and Argos in Toronto IMO.

[LLB997]

Brunt
Is truly a moron when he can with a straight face say that the Argos r worth zero. Based on his theory, 1/3 of NHL teams and 1/2 of MLS clubs are also worth zero. MLSE will not ponyup 16 mill for a team worth $0. He needs t0 re evaluate his opinion on this issue if he wants to be taken seriously by football fans.. I know there are few here that support his whtevr, but when Harry Ornest is his basis for the Argos worth today, then its comical. He is typical of Toronto sports media lookin forward with every team and dwelling on the past with he Argos. When was the last time u heard them reference Harold Ballard in discussing the Leafs struggles the last 10 yrs.

[argotom]

Brunt
Is truly a moron when he can with a straight face say that the Argos r worth zero. Based on his theory, 1/3 of NHL teams and 1/2 of MLS clubs are also worth zero. MLSE will not ponyup 16 mill for a team worth $0. He needs t0 re evaluate his opinion on this issue if he wants to be taken seriously by football fans.. I know there are few here that support his whtevr, but when Harry Ornest is his basis for the Argos worth today, then its comical. He is typical of Toronto sports media lookin forward with every team and dwelling on the past with he Argos. When was the last time u heard them reference Harold Ballard in discussing the Leafs struggles the last 10 yrs.


Exactly.
To those here and there are a few that still think Brunt is a CFL and specifically Cats loving fan and objective writer, regardless of his season tickets, boy you guys must be drinking the kool aid big time.

[argolio]

There is no such thing as an objective writer.

[paulwoods13]

Does anyone on this forum believe the Argos have made money on operations -- excluding the special revenue events in 2007 and 2012 (Grey Cups) -- in the past 25 years?

[Mulder]

Does anyone on this forum believe the Argos have made money on operations -- excluding the special revenue events in 2007 and 2012 (Grey Cups) -- in the past 25 years?

Yes.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/cfl-team-for-halifax-a-good-idea-but-still-years-away-commissioner-1.1679303#ixzz2ux3z1oRI


Cohon said all CFL teams except one is either making a profit or breaking even. Staying in the black requires annual revenue between $17 million and $20 million, he said.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/11/21/despite-red-ink-owner-bob-young-still-passionate-about-his-hamilton-tiger-cats


And that’s before you get into the likely $40 million or more he’s lost as owner in the last decade and the $6 million or more he’s lost this year alone. That number will rise if he wins the game and has to buy rings and pay bonuses.

By deduction, Argo's broke even or made a small profit last year by reading those 2 quotes.
However, I believe Bob Young said the amount they lost 2012 season was enough to buy coffee for the office.

[paulwoods13]

What we don't know is whether Cohon's statement factored in 2012 Grey Cup rev for the Argos. There's little doubt that rev allowed them to turn a profit in at least one of the two years 2012-13, possibly both depending on how it was accrued. Without that revenue, I think it is highly doubtful the Argos turned a profit in either year. And even if they did, I would bet that has seldom, if ever, happened in the past 25 years. That doesn't mean that can't become nicely profitable in BMO, especially if they add the synergies of being part of MLSE.

[ArgoRavi]

What we don't know is whether Cohon's statement factored in 2012 Grey Cup rev for the Argos. There's little doubt that rev allowed them to turn a profit in at least one of the two years 2012-13, possibly both depending on how it was accrued. Without that revenue, I think it is highly doubtful the Argos turned a profit in either year. And even if they did, I would bet that has seldom, if ever, happened in the past 25 years. That doesn't mean that can't become nicely profitable in BMO, especially if they add the synergies of being part of MLSE.

And don't forget about the new TV contract as well, Paul. I think that the Argos will be profitable playing at BMO under the MLSE banner.

[AngeloV]

Does anyone on this forum believe the Argos have made money on operations -- excluding the special revenue events in 2007 and 2012 (Grey Cups) -- in the past 25 years?

Unless they are getting a lot more in sponsorship than one would think, I don't believe they have made money except for the '07 and '12 seasons.

[Invader]

For all we know, it could be that Rogers does not want to own the Argos, which was confirmed in a late December MLSE board meeting. MLSE is apparently hosting another board meeting this week. It could also be that Bell is not all that enamoured about owning the Argos either. I believe that TSN has already owned the Argos on three occasions, so they should be well-versed on the Argos finances. Tanenbaum, it was reported has had a longtime admiration of the Argos and wanted to buy them in the past but was shot down by the MLSE board {sniff, sniff}.

MLSE's rush to renovate BMO could be more of a play to shoot down Braley's proposed football stadium in the suburbs, than a kindly gesture to help out the Argos. Then once the Argos agree to move to BMO, MLSE could withdraw their purchase offer and stick whoever owns the team with a huge rental fee at BMO (replete with a 200-ft mural of Jermain Defoe at the entrance.) ;)

As a wise man once said, "keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

[LLB997]

And Argos at BMO may be a certainty :[

[Argo]

There is no such thing as an objective writer.

Franz Kafka hit the nail on the head.

[ARGOSFANATIC]

I really hope MLSE does NOT buy the Argos to run them like the Leafs not sure I can stomach that

[BATKINSON001]

I really hope MLSE does NOT buy the Argos to run them like the Leafs not sure I can stomach that how do they run the leafs? For that matter how do thy run their lesser franchises, the raptors and the marlies?

[T-Bone]

how do they run the leafs? For that matter how do thy run their lesser franchises, the raptors and the marlies?With profit margins.

[ArgoGabe22]

I was against MLSE from day one but soon I realized that it's probably in the best interest in the team to have a stable owner rather than having to keep finding a new one every few years. We'll finally have an outdoor stadium, something that I never witnessed and think it's where football should be played.

[Invader]

I was against MLSE from day one but soon I realized that it's probably in the best interest in the team to have a stable owner rather than having to keep finding a new one every few years. We'll finally have an outdoor stadium, something that I never witnessed and think it's where football should be played.
There are still many questions that need answers before the Argos move to BMO can be confirmed:

- How much will the Argos owner be expected to contribute financially to the BMO renovation, if any?
- How much will the Argos be charged as a rental fee at BMO? (There were reports BMO rentals were very expensive.)
- How much ancillary revenue will the Argos receive from parking, concession, naming rights, stadium signage and sponsorships, etc.
- Will the new stadium motif and seating colours reflect both main tenants (Argos and TFC) or will it primarily be red?

MLSE apparently had a board meeting this week with Argos ownership likely being a topic. We can't expect much news while negotiations are still on-going, but MLSE basically hasn't said one word about buying the Argos. The only news we have is from media hacks who gave out some speculative numbers and rumours. I just hope this all isn't some Rogers-orchestrated smokes-screen, building up the Argos fans hopes, then dropping them like last week's bagels.

[LLB997]

There are still many questions that need answers before the Argos move to BMO can be confirmed:

- How much will the Argos owner be expected to contribute financially to the BMO renovation, if any?
- How much will the Argos be charged as a rental fee at BMO? (There were reports BMO rentals were very expensive.)
- How much ancillary revenue will the Argos receive from parking, concession, naming rights, stadium signage and sponsorships, etc.
- Will the new stadium motif and seating colours reflect both main tenants (Argos and TFC) or will it primarily be red?

MLSE apparently had a board meeting this week with Argos ownership likely being a topic. We can't expect much news while negotiations are still on-going, but MLSE basically hasn't said one word about buying the Argos. The only news we have is from media hacks who gave out some speculative numbers and rumours. I just hope this all isn't some Rogers-orchestrated smokes-screen, building up the Argos fans hopes, then dropping them like last week's bagels.


What I have read from someone who was quoting someone who is within MLSE, The idea is that all seats will be replaced as it will be cheaper than seat matching the existing seats at BMO and they are going for a very uniform looking design. Grey was mentioned as neutral colour which is an element in both the Argos and No Names logos and would suit a winter effect nicely for potential heritage classics. Notice how BC place utilized greyish seat warmers at the Her. Classic last week to cover the orange seats.

[argotom]

how do they run the leafs? For that matter how do thy run their lesser franchises, the raptors and the marlies?



They are definitely not fan friendly.
Jacking the prices to the point of being obscene and unaffordable.
No better example than the Leafs, in turn blackmailing their season ticket holders to buy the Raptors.
On top of which after the early craze of the TFC, they probably have ruined by chasing away many season ticket holders.
I hate to think what will happen to my season tickets at the dome when MLSE get's they hands on the franchise at the crap renovated BMO.

[ArgoFan1]

I was against MLSE from day one but soon I realized that it's probably in the best interest in the team to have a stable owner rather than having to keep finding a new one every few years. We'll finally have an outdoor stadium, something that I never witnessed and think it's where football should be played.

Have you never been to a game at Rogers Centre ??? Gee, some of you people bewilder me. I bet more than half of the Argos home games there have been played in an outdoor stadium with the roof open. You can't get any more "outdoors" than that !!! Plus, you had the benefit of it closing for cold weather.

[Argo57]

They are definitely not fan friendly.
Jacking the prices to the point of being obscene and unaffordable.
No better example than the Leafs, in turn blackmailing their season ticket holders to buy the Raptors.
On top of which after the early craze of the TFC, they probably have ruined by chasing away many season ticket holders.
I hate to think what will happen to my season tickets at the dome when MLSE get's they hands on the franchise at the crap renovated BMO.

I'm sure ticket prices will increase, but they need to be careful how much they increase as it may take several years to rebuild the CFL fan base in Toronto. Different story as we all know with the Leafs, corporations and some of the general public will pay just about anything to see the Leafs.

[Invader]

They are definitely not fan friendly.
Jacking the prices to the point of being obscene and unaffordable.
No better example than the Leafs, in turn blackmailing their season ticket holders to buy the Raptors.
On top of which after the early craze of the TFC, they probably have ruined by chasing away many season ticket holders.
I hate to think what will happen to my season tickets at the dome when MLSE get's they hands on the franchise at the crap renovated BMO.
Argo season tickets should cost less per seat than TFC's at BMO. MLSE invested $100 million in a couple of TFC players, money they'll have to recoup. I doubt they'll be spending anywhere close to that on with the Argos (although $100 million could draw several NFL superstars to Toronto). TFC is also a bigger operation, with higher revenues and the MLS is "major league"...while the CFL is big only in Canada.

For example, if a TFC ticket cost $60, the equivilant Argo ticket should cost $45-$50 in my estimation. I doubt MLSE could justify a higher ticket price than that or one that is higher than TFC.

Another factor is the demographics, with CFL season ticket holders in other cities having fairly high family incomes. Not sure about the Argos, but the B.C. Lions said a couple years ago the average family income of their season ticket holders was over $200,000. The younger TFC crowd, probably not so much.

[ArgoGabe22]

Have you never been to a game at Rogers Centre ??? Gee, some of you people bewilder me. I bet more than half of the Argos home games there have been played in an outdoor stadium with the roof open. You can't get any more "outdoors" than that !!! Plus, you had the benefit of it closing for cold weather.

I believe it's an indoor stadium with the roof open and I have been to many games. I just love it when it's a nice October day and the stadium roof is closed because it's just too darn cold out for the roof to move. The glare from the floodlights is magnificent, not to mention the fog created from the TD/FG fireworks via the field goal posts. Nothing like the great outdoors.

Football is more of autumn sport and being cooped up in the dome when it`s a little chilly out is a shame. Playing in the elements is what "oldschool" football is all about, I guess, from the Mud Bowl, Snow Bowl, Fog Bowl etc. While it's true that if most games are in the summer months, then the roof is open but there just isn't a football aura associated with a dome. From the shape of the stadium to the huge slabs of concrete around it, I can't wait to see it go.

Anyways, for me a retractable roof does not equal "outdoors". It's like going camping in the great outdoors with the sun roof open in an RV.

[T-Bone]

Yeah it certainly does seem like MLSE and BMO Field are 2 separate issues. I wonder if MLSE is getting cold feet about buying the Argonauts?
I'm answering this here because like we said it now appears that MLSE ownership of the Argos and the Argos moving in to BMO Field are two separate issues. Like many I also believed the speculation that the two would go hand in hand but only the Argos moving in to BMO Field seems to be a done deal. I think the question that should be asked is were/are MLSE interested in buying the Argos? MLSE can't be getting cold feet about buying the Argos if they weren't/aren't interested in buying them.

[Neely2005]

I'm answering this here because like we said it now appears that MLSE ownership of the Argos and the Argos moving in to BMO Field are two separate issues. Like many I also believed the speculation that the two would go hand in hand but only the Argos moving in to BMO Field seems to be a done deal. I think the question that should be asked is were/are MLSE interested in buying the Argos? MLSE can't be getting cold feet about buying the Argos if they weren't/aren't interested in buying them.

And here's another concern, if the Argonauts move to BMO Field and MLSE does Not buy them are we right back to the problem of being a second class tenant and getting the leftovers for scheduling home dates?

Now TFC does play less home games than the Blue Jays but it could still be an issue.

[LLB997]

i am thrilled with prospect of playing out of bmo without being owned by mlse. I think the team is a more desirable purchase playing out of bmo.

I dont think there Is a 2nd class tenant in the bmo scenario. I believe both teams will get most of their desired dates without too much crossover or confusion

[T-Bone]

And here's another concern, if the Argonauts move to BMO Field and MLSE does Not buy them are we right back to the problem of being a second class tenant and getting the leftovers for scheduling home dates?

Now TFC does play less home games than the Blue Jays but it could still be an issue.
I don't think scheduling will be much of an issue as TFC plays far less games than the Jays. It's 19 guaranteed dates vs. 81. My concern is more on the marketing side of things.

[Argo57]

I don't think scheduling will be much of an issue as TFC plays far less games than the Jays. It's 19 guaranteed dates vs. 81. My concern is more on the marketing side of things.

Marketing is one area that MLSE ownership would improve for sure, imagine seeing some kids running around your neighbourhoods wearing CFL jerseys hats etc instead of NFL garb. I know my 2 kids are probably the only 2 that wear CFL jerseys at their school, kind of sad when you think about it.

[ArgoRavi]

I will be surprised if MLSE/Tanenbaum doesn't purchase the Argos fairly soon but it does take time to get these deals done.

[Downtownfan]

The City's Executive Committee report on the proposed renovation and expansion of BMO has been posted on the City website.
(Sorry, I may not have posted the links properly).

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2014.EX39.4

What's really interesting is the background report/letter from MLSE: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2014/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-67468.pdf

There are a few things that stick out, though I just did a very quick read:
1. There is no indication that MLSE will necessarily be the Argos owner, but nothing to say that they won't.

2. scheduling is mentioned in there, but mostly in terms of conflicts with the CNE.

3. When it comes to signage, there is an interesting bit in there about changes to the signage at Maple Leaf Square. Seems unusual to change the signage at MLSE owned Maple Leaf Square unless you are going to add an Argos emblem.

4. City, province, Feds to chip in $10 million each, remaining $90 million from MLSE

5. anticipated that Argos will be at BMO for 2015

6. Agreement is dependent in part on MLSE securing a 20 year lease with the Argos; must be settled by May 15

[QBall]

5. anticipated that Argos will be at BMO for 2015

Wow that soon? Will we have to wear hard hats to the games?

[Invader]

After reading the report, this seems like a good deal for the Argos. They'll get virtually a new stadium, with covered seating and a natural grass field...with no capital outlay by the team. The Argos only obligation is to sign a longterm lease at BMO. As long as the lease terms are reasonable...where do we sign?

The only stickler is the $10 million contribution from the federal government but with an election coming soon, that shouldn't be a stumbling block.

The Argos lease at BMO is full assignable and transferable to the new owner, without prejudice by MLSE. This agreement will give the Argos some stability and increases their franchise value. I'll predict the Argos will sellout every game at BMO, especially with all 25,000 seats being on the sidelines.

I'd be surprised if MLSE didn't already have an agreement in principle to purchase the Argos before this report was released?

[Argocister]

....2015......


Wow that soon? Will we have to wear hard hats to the games?

Naw, on away games we come for pre game construction then tailgate watching the game on the video board .... video board goes up first. :)

[paulwoods13]

Latest from Leiweke here:

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/16/mlse-plans-to-spend-big-bucks-to-upgrade-bmo-field

This seems to lend credence to the idea that Braley and MLSE will be in some kind of partnership on the Argos, not an outright sale of the team to MLSE.

[Invader]

Latest from Leiweke here:

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/16/mlse-plans-to-spend-big-bucks-to-upgrade-bmo-field

This seems to lend credence to the idea that Braley and MLSE will be in some kind of partnership on the Argos, not an outright sale of the team to MLSE.

I guess it couldn't be any clearer right from the horses' mouth:

Leiweke: "As to us buying them, on a stand-alone basis, we have no interest in the Argos."

I hope Leiweke isn't doing the scheduling:

“We think we know how to work the schedule out,” Leiweke said. “We have eight Argos games a year. We’ll figure this out.”

[rdavies]

I guess it couldn't be any clearer right from the horses' mouth:

Leiweke:"As to us buying them, on a stand-alone basis, we have no interest in the Argos."He has said that all along to appease the soccer people, just after that he said "But because of the uniqueness of what we have to go through to get the stadium, we are certainly intertwined. The definition of intertwined is forthcoming" So we can read into that what we will.

Now, Larsson is a soccer guy and some of the comments from him and Lieweke make the Argos look like the homeless, red headed stepchild. It's time to pay a few visits to some sites to correct some of the negativity. Hope others here do the same.

[Treblecharger1]

I agree with Tim, He is basically saying if the Argos move to BMO we are tempted to buy them as it changes the dynamics of us owning them. He is basically admitting that if the Argos move to BMO they are interested in owning them. If the Argos do not move to BMO they are not going to own them.

[ArgoRavi]

I agree with Tim, He is basically saying if the Argos move to BMO we are tempted to buy them as it changes the dynamics of us owning them. He is basically admitting that if the Argos move to BMO they are interested in owning them. If the Argos do not move to BMO they are not going to own them.

That is the way I take his quote as well. At a minimum, it sounds like MLSE will have a stake of some kind in the Argos if they don't own the entire thing.

[Neely2005]

I guess it couldn't be any clearer right from the horses' mouth:

Leiweke: "As to us buying them, on a stand-alone basis, we have no interest in the Argos."

I hope Leiweke isn't doing the scheduling:

“We think we know how to work the schedule out,” Leiweke said. “We have eight Argos games a year. We’ll figure this out.”

Yeah but then he kind of contradicts himself later in the article:

The soon-to-be-homeless Argos are also without a training facility, meaning TFC’s Kia Training Ground at Downsview might soon have a neighbour.
“In a perfect world there’s a football field next to the Kia Training Ground,” Leiweke said. “We’ll work with Downsview to see if we can build a new facility as part of the campus.”

Which means there’s a chance, big or small, MLSE adds the Argos to their collection of teams.
“There’s always a chance,” he said. “Our first focus is TFC. Then BMO Field. We’ll see where this goes with the Argos.”

This part talks a little more about the turf and scheduling:

Plans are for the new BMO field to seat 30,000 for soccer and 25,000 for football, with the ability to expand by an additional 10,000 seats for big events.
“When you walk into the building for a TFC game, you won’t know the Argos play there,” Leiweke said. “We’re not painting logos, so there won’t be a centre logo. The CFL logos in the end zones will be underneath the stands so you won’t see them. We’re going to work at making sure the lines go away.”
He said it was an additional $30-million commitment to make moveable stands a reality.
“We live in a different age and world now where the creativity and technology we can use to move stands in and out, to use paint that goes away, to ultimately use a turf system that gives both sides a green grass. We’re going to do all we can to protect the purity of the sport.”
Leiweke’s always speaking in soccer terms. He also quashed fears of BMO Field going back to artificial turf here Saturday, saying they’ll use an expensive hybrid surface utilized by big clubs around the world.
“We think we know how to work the schedule out,” Leiweke said. “We have eight Argos games a year. We’ll figure this out.”
He added that an MLS game will never be played the day after a CFL game, but the reverse is possible.

[Ron]

Think of it this way. The Argos will be going to BMO for the 2016 season at the earliest. There's no reason for MLSE to own the team for it's last 2 seasons at Rogers. Once the team goes to BMO and all the synergies come into play ... then they'll want to own them.

[rdavies]

Think of it this way. The Argos will be going to BMO for the 2016 season at the earliest. FINAL DRAFT FOR COUNCIL CONSIDERATION:
March 10, 2014
Proposal for Expansion of Stadium at Exhibition Place (http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2014/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-67468.pdf)

Page 9

"The parties acknowledge their mutual intention that the Toronto Argonauts will commence the holding of their CFL games in the 2015 season".

...

The first phase of construction, which will include seat expansion, concourse work and the creation of suites and club seats, will end next May (2015). The second phase (roof) will run from Sept. 1, 2015 to May of 2016 (will not affect TFC nor should it Argos)

[paulwoods13]

I believe 2015 is possible, for at least a portion of the schedule.

I am expecting someone to invent and market virtual lines (similar to what TV uses now for first-down markers) that can be projected on the field rather than painted. I think this will happen in the next few years, and what better place to try it first than in our new home?

[rdavies]

I had posted to another site that there really was no reason to have unsightly ads on the field and that they could be keyed in like the ten yard marker. Someone who is normally reliable said that was the plan, whether true or not I don't know but there is no reason to have ads on the field (aside from local sponsors) who could be accommodated by sideline signage.

Lieweke states “We’re not painting logos, so there won’t be a centre logo. The CFL logos in the end zones will be underneath the stands so you won’t see them. We’re going to work at making sure the lines go away.”

There is LED signage on the sideline and if they can key the ads in on the field it's all covered and sponsors should be happy. I'm actually surprised why TSN is behind with this kind of thing. Not sure why there aren't cameras on the goalposts or more on field special effects like Fox does. Sometimes I think all the effects get a little cartoony but TSN definitely could do more with their broadcasts.

In the meantime, there's this;

Field of Screens (http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2006/1127/058.html)
Monte Burke Forbes.com November 27, 2006

In a few years NFL gridirons will become their own Jumbotrons. "Turf TV" might put the plasma in the den to shame.

Imagine this: you pull in your driveway after a long day at the office, step out of your car, and suddenly your lawn, yes, your lawn, lights up with a "Welcome Home, Honey!" Or how about this: The military has a runway deep in enemy territory that it wants to keep from getting blown up, so it changes the color of the landing turf to brown to blend in with the surrounding desert. When a plane comes in for a landing, two strips of lights appear. After the plane has landed, with a push of a button the strip reverts to camouflage mode.

Sounds cool, right? This technology will be available soon, making its grand entrance as a National Football League field. Mark Nicholls, the founder and chief executive of Sportexe, the number two maker of artificial turf in the NFL, has patented the process of "tufting" fiber optics with blades of plastic grass. "We will be able to turn the football field into a giant Jumbotron," says Nicholls.

A field can display a huge American flag during the national anthem. At halftime a sponsor such as Budweiser could cover the field with its logo. During the game, that virtual first-down marker you see on your TV could now be on the field itself before the ball is snapped. And because sensors beneath the fibers can sense when any given blade's light is obscured, referees can track the footsteps of a player to determine if he was in-bounds or not. Stadium owners would welcome the technology as well, as it would help them get more use out of the field: A few mouse clicks is all it takes to change the field from a gridiron to a soccer pitch. Compare that to the 2.5-hour, $650 process of cleaning and repainting lines on today's artificial fields.

Sportexe's interactive field is merely the latest salvo in the escalating artificial turf wars. AstroTurf, that pale green, postmodern creation of the 1960s, loathed by players and TV-viewers alike, is gone from NFL stadiums. It's been replaced by what's known as "in-fill" turf systems, which cover a football field with 50 million to 70 million 2.5-inch-tall blades of "grass" made from polyethylene, cushioned by a mixture of rubber pellets and silica that acts as the dirt. The in-fill fields look and feel more like natural grass; one company even supplies a spray that smells like freshly mowed grass.

The new fields claim to be softer and more forgiving than AstroTurf, which was a nylon rug laid over a shock-absorbing pad and concrete. The players like them better, too. But James Bradley, the Pittsburgh Steelers' chief physician, says not enough research has been done on the new fields to validate a safety advantage. "I'd still prefer to see every game played on grass," he says.

The in-fill system was patented in 1981 by a former professional golfer named Frederick Haas to make truer hitting surfaces in tee boxes. Its potential for sports fields was realized early on, but AstroTurf so dominated the artificial turf market that it wasn't until 2002 that the first in-fill field was installed in the NFL, at Seattle's Seahawks Stadium (now called Qwest Field). All 12 of the 31 NFL stadiums with artificial turf now use in-fill systems. In-fill systems are also found at baseball stadiums and town parks, and were recently approved by the Fédération Internationale de Football Association for World Cup soccer qualifying matches.

FieldTurf in Montreal (revenue: $235 million), run by a former Canadian Football League quarterback, is the market leader with eight stadiums, including Ford Field in Detroit, host of last year's Super Bowl, the first ever played on an in-fill surface. FieldTurf says it has built 1,900 sports fields and 150 fields in town parks. The town of Redding, Calif. recently built four in-fill fields. Sportexe, in Fonthill, Ont. (revenue: $50 million), is the distant number two, with 300 fields, 2 of them for the NFL.

But Sportexe, 40% owned by former Baltimore Ravens owner Art Modell, believes the future of turf is interactive. Here's how its "turf TV" works: A computer sends an image to the field, where it is distributed among 1,750 interconnected square trays, 7.5 feet on a side, that host their own light processing circuitry. Thousands of blades of polyethylene grass, blended with optical fibers, reflect light upward from the trays. It's like a computer monitor that you can walk on. A football field would have 128 million pixels, which works out to 1,280 per square foot. In pixels per square foot it can't hold a candle to your television set; in total pixels it's well ahead.

Unlike your flat screen at home, this display is equipped to withstand the impact of a 380-pound lineman. The blades are conducting light, not electricity, so athletes can't be electrocuted on rainy days, even if they're losing badly.

At $1.5 million, the purchase price of an interactive field will be three times that of an unilluminated in-fill field and eight times that of a natural grass field. But Sportexe's Nicholls points out that the ten-year maintenance bill on grass can approach $1 million, 20 times the cost of maintaining an in-fill field. A stadium owner may be able to pay the mortgage on the interactive grass with ad revenue or host more events if the field lines can be changed so easily and rapidly.

Nicholls says the lit-up fields are still two years away from commercialization. The technology, though, is already being employed, most notably on artificial Christmas trees.

"The technology isn't really that amazing," he says. "It's just that no one's done it on a field yet."

[LLB997]

I don't believe TL, Ithink MLSE are interested, just not at Braleys asking price.

[Ron]

TY. Corrected on the 2016 part. That still leaves 2014 that MLSE will not want a part of. 2014 would be the "stand alone" part he mentions.

[jerrym]

I glad to hear that the Argos wandering of what seems like 40 years in the desert of Roger's Centre may soon be over. I was beginning to think I would end up like Moses, who died before his people made it to the Promised Land.

[rdavies]

Hang in there Mo, should be better times ahead. Even the worst case scenario can't be worse than what they were facing.

[doubleblue]

Tim either can't count or he knows something we don't. He says the Argos have 8 home games. Could be a possible 12 games counting 1 exhibition, 9 scheduled and maybe 2 playoff games. Does 8 games mean, an exhibition game at Varsity and 1 Touchdown Atlantic every year?

[paulwoods13]

Tim either can't count or he knows something we don't. He says the Argos have 8 home games. Could be a possible 12 games counting 1 exhibition, 9 scheduled and maybe 2 playoff games. Does 8 games mean, an exhibition game at Varsity and 1 Touchdown Atlantic every year?

He's a bit off, yes, but for the record there can never be two home playoff games in a year under the current playoff format. One playoff game and one Grey Cup, yes, but not two PO games.

[argonaut11xx]

So..the Argo's are leaving Rogers-Dome, which was built in part so the mighty Argonauts could escape the mistake by the lake....so to get everything in my head straight......

The Argo's left the CNE site, to escape to a brand new stadium ..to escape the elements that were obvious compatriots in the stadium built on the exhibition grounds along side lake ontario...

The fact a Paul Godfrey lead rogers corp bid bought the TAXPAYER OWNED property for a mere 25 million which us poor tax paying folks paid 580-600 million to build in 1989 makes be sick .

If not for the 1982 Grey Cup, and a few other terrible weather home games (which i attended most)..this concrete convertible would never have been built. HOLD ON...ask around today??..and most folks would look at you as if you were unbalanced if you advised them of the fact i just presented..YEP

And now...people are looking to the move to the City of Toronto Stadium (which some call BMO) as a charity ,olive branch, or saving grace for the Argonauts.

So what, The Toronto Argonauts are moving back to the "EX", yup...thats all...(going home to the CNE)

There is so much more to add...but being St Patty's day...my brain is already sore and tired....

So, Happy St Patrick's day to all.....

May God give you...


For every storm, a rainbow,
For every tear, a smile,
For every care, a promise,
And a blessing in each trial.
For every problem life sends,
A faithful friend to share,
For every sigh, a sweet song,
And an answer for each prayer.

[Ron]

The fact a Paul Godfrey lead rogers corp bid bought the TAXPAYER OWNED property for a mere 25 million which us poor tax paying folks paid 580-600 million to build in 1989 makes be sick .

It should make you sick since you are wrong about this.

[Neely2005]

It should make you sick since you are wrong about this.

Yeah there were other private owners between the government and Rogers but why let facts get in the way of bashing this sites # 1 Bogeyman. Everything is a Rogers conspiracy!

[bluto]

yeah... but none of the other owners (between the building and Rogers acquiring it) smuggly thanked the taxpayers for building him such a nice stadium for such a low price.

i still fight the urge to vandalize that asshole's statue every time i walk past it to gate 5.

[Neely2005]

yeah... but none of the other owners (between the building and Rogers acquiring it) smuggly thanked the taxpayers for building him such a nice stadium for such a low price.

i still fight the urge to vandalize that asshole's statue every time i walk past it to gate 5.

I don't recall him doing that. Do you have a Link for that?

This is all that I could find and there aren't even any quotes from Ted Rogers:

http://www.tsn.ca/story/print/?id=106352

[ArgoZ]

I don't recall him doing that. Do you have a Link for that?

This is all that I could find and there aren't even any quotes from Ted Rogers:

http://www.tsn.ca/story/print/?id=106352

It was during the infamous Bills series announcement. He thanked the city of Toronto for building a stadium that they recently bought for 25 million. As a thanks, he was repaying the favor by bringing the wonderful NFL experience to town via the Bills. Minutes later, Ted chocked on his bottled water, when someone asked if there will be any tickets for under $100 dollars. No need, he remarked that they will be lining all the way up to King St. when the tickets go on sale. The most pompous and arrogant press conference I have ever seen. Ralph Wilson could only smile while commenting on how awesome Toronto was with all it's construction cranes, compared to Buffalo. I felt like I was watching the Muppets. It was the beginning and the end of that series all at once.

[argotom]

It was during the infamous Bills series announcement. He thanked the city of Toronto for building a stadium that they recently bought for 25 million. As a thanks, he was repaying the favor by bringing the wonderful NFL experience to town via the Bills. Minutes later, Ted chocked on his bottled water, when someone asked if there will be any tickets for under $100 dollars. No need, he remarked that they will be lining all the way up to King St. when the tickets go on sale. The most pompous and arrogant press conference I have ever seen. Ralph Wilson could only smile while commenting on how awesome Toronto was with all it's construction cranes, compared to Buffalo. I felt like I was watching the Muppets. It was the beginning and the end of that series all at once.


I saw that as well, what an ignorant sob he was.
I recall TR saying there would be 1 ticket for $100, with a sarcastic grimace as well.
And yes who can also forget from the Stephen Brunt school of certainty the other famous statement how the 5 year worth of tickets would be sold in mere minutes and in fact overloading the Ticketmaster system?

[OV Argo]

How dare any of you guys disparage any of these fantastic supporters of Canadian football like Uncle Ted / Rogers or Stephen Brunt or Larry Tanenbaum or Booby McCown or Steve Simpletonsimmons ?

C'mon now - this is not the place for negativity - get with the program; let's all support and embrace some nice new corporate "owners" of the historic Argo team/franchise, and their media puppets, er, shills, er, boosters !

[T-Bone]

I have a feeling we are not going to get any new news about MLSE's possible ownership of the Argos for awhile. My guess is, now that the BMO Field expansion is pretty much a done deal MLSE is going to wait Braley out on the purchase of the team. Or MLSE is leaving the team in Braley's hands with the understanding that they will take it over after Braley makes some money back from them playing at BMO Field.

[Treblecharger1]

I have a feeling we are not going to get any new news about MLSE's possible ownership of the Argos for awhile. My guess is, now that the BMO Field expansion is pretty much a done deal MLSE is going to wait Braley out on the purchase of the team. Or MLSE is leaving the team in Braley's hands with the understanding that they will take it over after Braley makes some money back from them playing at BMO Field.

I sort of agree this transaction will not take place until after the 2014 season. MLSE will not want them while playing out of Rogers Centre. I expect sometime during the season a transaction and announcement will take place. Here is the kicker if the Argos announce they are having training camp at downsview it will be a lock in my opinion.

[ArgoRavi]

Braley does confirm it in this article: http://metronews.ca/news/vancouver/981787/b-c-lions-not-for-sale-toronto-argos-are-owner-david-braley/

The original Toronto Sun article that is referenced is actually Steve Simmons' weekend column: http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/22/babcock-deserves-jack-adams-award-more-than-ever