CTV talk back TO poll on now, Fav TO sports team.

[1argoholic]

toronto.ctv.ca

Look for talk back TO poll. We need to boost the Argo rankings to give them something to talk about. Poll will run all day.

[T-Bone]

toronto.ctv.ca (http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>RT <a href="https://twitter.com/michelledubeCTV">@michelledubeCTV</a>: What is your favourite Toronto sports team? Join us on <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23TalkbackTO&amp;src=hash">#TalkbackTO</a>! 416-872-9000 or tweet <a href="https://twitter.com/CTVToronto">@CTVToronto</a></p>&mdash; CTV Toronto (@CTVToronto) <a href="https://twitter.com/CTVToronto/statuses/452114410291875841">April 4, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Invader]

toronto.ctv.ca

Look for talk back TO poll. We need to boost the Argo rankings to give them something to talk about. Poll will run all day.

Yep, vote early and vote often!

This poll is part of a Blue Jays opening day story, so predictably the Jays will get lots of votes. I'm sure if they held this poll on EDF Sunday last Nov, the Argos would be much higher than the 18% currently...which is more than double the TFC and Raptors votes combined.

Here is the poll link, which is at the bottom of the story:

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/behind-the-scenes-stadium-staff-prepare-for-the-blue-jays-home-opener-1.1761004

[T-Bone]

This poll is part of a Blue Jays opening day story, so predictably the Jays will get lots of votes. I'm sure if they held this poll on EDF Sunday last Nov, the Argos would be much higher than the 18% currently...which is more than double the TFC and Raptors votes combined.
Ultimately this poll means very little.

[AngeloV]

Ultimately this poll means very little.

About as much as the useless polls we see on this site from time to time, usually attached to the rehasing of a thread as part of another thread....But I can't quite put my finger on where it happened..**COUGH** BMO Field capacity **COUGH**

:D

[rdavies]

Ultimately this poll means very little.Any positive perception of the Argos, at this time, means something. Even the cheerleaders article is good karma, and that's what the Argos need, not negative defeatism that the club is doomed because of persistent NFL rumours.

[VANRIDERFAN]

I voted for you guys.

[OV Argo]

Leafs hand-downs obviously; and look for the wannabe media types to spin Jays or Craptors next in line - inspite of Argos/CFL TV numbers blowing away baseball or basketball, hands down, no contest.

[LLB997]

Leafs hand-downs obviously; and look for the wannabe media types to spin Jays or Craptors next in line - inspite of Argos/CFL TV numbers blowing away baseball or basketball, hands down, no contest.

This. why I voted Argos. no vote is useless if it contradicts Toronto sports media.

[Fumblitis]

That poll doesn't mean squat. Just because the Argos come in 3rd doesn't reflect the real picture. Chances are if the other voters choose a different team doesn't assume that they dismiss the Argos.

[Rich]

Ultimately this poll means very little.


Well it's certainly not scientific. But that doesn't mean it can't be close to being accurate. This is how it stood just after midnight:

What is your favourite Toronto sports team?

<tbody>
Toronto Maple Leafs

240
(28 %)


Toronto Blue Jays

239
(28 %)


Toronto FC

79
(9 %)


Toronto Argonauts

157
(18 %)


Toronto Raptors

141
(16 %)

</tbody>


I would argue this seems pretty close to being accurate, and I think it speaks volumes about sports fans in this city. It's the day of the Jays home opener, and the poll comes at the end of a feature story about the Jays. So the Jays number is a bit inflated.

But where do you think that number comes from? How many so-called "Leaf fans" have jumped off the Leafs bandwagon, now that things look so grim, and called themselves No. 1 Jays fans today?

I would say a lot. And that's just so damn typical of a lot of people in this city. Whichever team the media shoves down our throats, that's the team most people cheer for. I would say at least 8% of the Blue Jay number consists of fairweather Leaf fans abandoning ship.

I see the Leafs being favoured by 35-40%, Jays around 20%, And I think the Argonaut, Raptor and FC numbers are just about spot on. The local TV audience numbers support that kind of breakdown too. But if TFC ever went on a winning streak this year with Defoe knocking them in all over the place, I'd bet their numbers would rise big, maybe even double to 18%, thanks to those fairweather Toronto fans.

There's been a big upswing in Raptors coverage, deservedly so it's an exciting team, and I bet if they win a playoff round, their popularity number would go up to 30%, because it will be Raptormania in the media. I heard Sid Sixiero say yesterday fans should fill Maple Leaf Square when the Raptors are in the playoffs because "this team deserves it".

When's the last time you heard anyone in the media passionately tell people they should get out there and support the Argonauts? I don't think I've ever heard it. The Argos are the only team that doesn't get season opener/playoff season saturation coverage, so we'll never get that media bump which wins over the fairweather fans.

[Argo57]

This poll is dead on in my opinion (at this time) do the same poll in a couple of months when the Argos are in camp and in the Blue Jays have sh*t the bed (which they will) and the numbers would be a lot closer.

[AngeloV]

The fact that the Blue Jays and Leafs are equal as of Rich's timing proves how useless this poll is. In all honesty, the Leafs are far and away the most popular team not only in the city but also rival the Habs as the most popular sports team in the country. The fact that the poll was attached to a Blue Jays article obviously gives them a bit of an advantage voting wise.

[Argo57]

The fact that the Blue Jays and Leafs are equal as of Rich's timing proves how useless this poll is. In all honesty, the Leafs are far and away the most popular team not only in the city but also rival the Habs as the most popular sports team in the country. The fact that the poll was attached to a Blue Jays article obviously gives them a bit of an advantage voting wise.

True Angelo
In truth what polls like this do show is the Argonauts are still highly relevant in the Toronto sports scene (which I'm sure still pisses some people off) the key is getting more down to the stadium to watch.

[Will]

Yes it is all about the timing of the poll. The Maple Leafs would scientifically win such a poll 99 times out of 100, but with them teetering at the brink and the Blue Jays home opener having taken place (even if the Jays have no shot this year) means that the Blue Jays would get that extra boost. The Raptors success this year probably gives them a boost and rightly so. The Argos did quite respectable considering they are the only one of the four options listed who currently aren't playing.

[Invader]

Let's remember this poll was buried at the bottom of a Blue Jays story about their soldout home opener vs the Yankees, with the Jays at their season-high zenith of interest.

If you held this same poll, buried at the bottom of the Argos story last EDF Sunday, the Argos would likely draw over 30% fan support with the Jays long forgotten. The Raptors are currently getting added media attention with their playoff push, while TFC just kicked off their season with an exciting win and home opener. Those teams are in the news, while the Argos haven't played a game for 5 months. But the Argos are still favoured by more fans than the Raptors or TFC, according to this poll.

There is absolutely no way the Jays are equal to the Leafs as the fan's favourite team.

For reference, here are the Canadian TV ratings from last week (Note: the CFL averaged over 700,000 last season.):

1. NHL, Wings-Leafs/Habs-Panthers, Saturday, CBC: 1,946,000

5. MLB, Jays at Rays, Monday, Sportsnet: 391,000 (season opener)

15. NHL, Flames at Senators, Sunday, Sportsnet East-West: 234,000

16. MLB, Mets vs. Jays, Friday, Sportsnet360: 228,000

24. Basketball, NCAA Elite Eight, Saturday, TSN: 154,000

25. Soccer, Chelsea at Crystal Palace, Saturday, Sportsnet: 145,000

26. NBA: Raptors at Magic, Sunday, Sportsnet One: 140,000

xx. MLS: TFC at Salt Lake, Saturday, TSN2: 74,000

[Neely2005]

Let's remember this poll was buried at the bottom of a Blue Jays story about their soldout home opener vs the Yankees, with the Jays at their season-high zenith of interest.

If you held this same poll, buried at the bottom of the Argos story last EDF Sunday, the Argos would likely draw over 30% fan support with the Jays long forgotten. The Raptors are currently getting added media attention with their playoff push, while TFC just kicked off their season with an exciting win and home opener. Those teams are in the news, while the Argos haven't played a game for 5 months. But the Argos are still favoured by more fans than the Raptors or TFC, according to this poll.

There is absolutely no way the Jays are equal to the Leafs as the fan's favourite team.

For reference, here are the Canadian TV ratings from last week (Note: the CFL averaged over 700,000 last season.):

1. NHL, Wings-Leafs/Habs-Panthers, Saturday, CBC: 1,946,000

5. MLB, Jays at Rays, Monday, Sportsnet: 391,000 (season opener)

15. NHL, Flames at Senators, Sunday, Sportsnet East-West: 234,000

16. MLB, Mets vs. Jays, Friday, Sportsnet360: 228,000

24. Basketball, NCAA Elite Eight, Saturday, TSN: 154,000

25. Soccer, Chelsea at Crystal Palace, Saturday, Sportsnet: 145,000

26. NBA: Raptors at Magic, Sunday, Sportsnet One: 140,000

xx. MLS: TFC at Salt Lake, Saturday, TSN2: 74,000

Yeah the Jays were down a lot from last years season opener:

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-game/great-canadian-ratings-report-opening-dud-costs-jays-210515088.html


Here are some numbers from last season.


CFL ratings up due to Southern Ontario:

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-game/key-cfl-television-ratings-increase-surprise-southern-ontario-183017606.html


At an average of 703,000 viewers a game, the CFL stands second only to hockey as this country's most-watched sport. They're ahead of the Toronto Blue Jays' 540,000, a comparable number since the Jays generally play six games a week while the CFL offers up four.


Combined ratings on TSN and French-language RDS averaged 758,000 viewers per game, an increase of 3.6 per cent over 2012. The RDS numbers are down a tad, but considering how far the Montreal Alouettes have fallen there's no real surprise there.


But while overall ratings increases give the league something to crow about, that's not the real big news. The big news is that they're being driven by the most unlikely source of all: Southern Ontario. Ratings for games involving the Toronto Argonauts were up 26 per cent from last year while audiences for Hamilton (Guelph) Tiger-Cats games rose 14 per cent.
Ratings for all CFL games were up 18 per cent from last year in Southern Ontario and the Hamilton-Toronto clash on Thanksgiving Day drew the league's fourth-largest TV audience of the season with 956,000 viewers.

[paulwoods13]

But while overall ratings increases give the league something to crow about, that's not the real big news. The big news is that they're being driven by the most unlikely source of all: Southern Ontario. Ratings for games involving the Toronto Argonauts were up 26 per cent from last year while audiences for Hamilton (Guelph) Tiger-Cats games rose 14 per cent.
Ratings for all CFL games were up 18 per cent from last year in Southern Ontario and the Hamilton-Toronto clash on Thanksgiving Day drew the league's fourth-largest TV audience of the season with 956,000 viewers.

As I've pointed out before, mere percentages do not paint a full or necessarily accurate picture. I happen to believe that the CFL gets good ratings in the GTA, but the CFL's news release (or wherever this passage came from) is incomplete. Ratings would be up 18% if 118 people watched instead of 100.

[rdavies]

Some don't seem to grasp the signifigance of this. It doesn't matter if the poll is correct or even scientifically accurate (although it is a fairly larger sample), it's about perception. Rational thinking people see that and wonder why the Argos get little coverage or are derided by other so-called sports fans. It's a positive that can be used. When people are spilling things like this in your lap, you don't dismiss them, you use them.

[Wobbler]

Well said, rdavies. This poll is statistically meaningless but the results could be useful nevertheless.

[AngeloV]

Well said, rdavies. This poll is statistically meaningless but the results could be useful nevertheless.

I can't help but wonder how this type of thing can be useful? You tell a Toronto CFL hater about the ratings, and they'll come back and say things like "well what else is there to watch in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta?".

They see the league as minor league and no ratings info will change that.

[rdavies]

The argument that 95% (exaggerating) of people who watch Argos games are not from Toronto is ludicrous. What about vs Hamilton? If the southern Ontario market is so moribund then why does that game get big numbers, Saskatchewan people have a thing for Hamilton?

Yes, it's an unscientific poll, that is open to anyone across Canada to vote, but it is most likely that it is people from southern Ontario going to the Toronto Star website. Do you go to the Halifax Chronically Horrid to vote on polls very much?

Canoe.ca often runs polls and I can almost always forecast what the results will be. They almost always echo public sentiment and that's what I think this poll does.

Just wonder why some people here seem to be fighting it. With friends like that who needs enemies. You do what everybody else does. Spin, spin, spin and this has given you something to work with.

Argos hanging in there, get over there and vote, this poll can be used (when it is closed) to show the importance of the CFL in the GTA market.

http://i58.tinypic.com/fkz1jq.jpg

[LLB997]

But how can the Argos be ahead of the Toronto No Names. Any No Names fan will tell you none of their friends ever talk Argos or CFL. A true barometer of accuracy. XD

[rdavies]

Do you not think that if TFC were ahead in this poll their fans wouldn't use it to further try and sink the Argos. They wouldn't give two hoots about how "accurate" it was. And time to give the "no names" thing a rest.

[ArgoGabe22]

But how can the Argos be ahead of the Toronto No Names. Any No Names fan will tell you none of their friends ever talk Argos or CFL. A true barometer of accuracy. XD

I think you can stop refereeing to Toronto FC as a no names after their signings. I never understood really understood it in the first place.

Regarding polls, 1,325 responses really means nothing. It does show that people do support the Argos but we all could have voted every 10 minutes. It's like the CFL.ca or TSN polls. They're all pointless because Rider fans just vote for their own even if they don't deserve the credit.

[rdavies]

Regarding polls, 1,325 responses really means nothing. It does show that people do support the Argos but we all could have voted every 10 minutes. It's like the CFL.ca or TSN polls. They're all pointless because Rider fans just vote for their own even if they don't deserve the credit.Sorry but these kind of comments are just as ludicrous as giving Rider fans credit for skewing everything. There's only one million people in Saskatchewan and contrary to popular belief they're not all Rider fans, they're not skewing the TV rating in a Toronto vs Hamilton game that rates over a million. Hard as it may be to believe but it's the people from the GTA watching it.

A sample of 1,600 people gives you a margin of error of 2.5 percent, which is pretty good for a poll. Yes, I know it isn't a proper scientific poll but I can't help but wonder WTH is wrong with people here questioning a gift that has been thrown into your lap.

It's no wonder the Argo/CFL haters have gained the ascendancy when the supposed Argo fans question what little good news they get instead of shouting it to the heavens.

And if people think I'm being naive about this I'm not. I have a marketing and TV background. I'm not being naive, I'm lying. Remember? Lies, damned lies, and statistics! The context doesn't matter, it's the numbers and perception and they show the Argos in a much better light than what we are being told (whether true or not)

[Wobbler]

I can't help but wonder how this type of thing can be useful? You tell a Toronto CFL hater about the ratings, and they'll come back and say things like "well what else is there to watch in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta?".
There's no point in trying to change the mind of "haters", but I suspect that most people who dismiss the Argos aren't haters. It is easy for a reasonable person to walk the streets of Toronto and never realize that it has a football team. Polls like this (and TV ratings) provide evidence that can be used to remind such people, and the media, that there is meaningful interest in the Argos.

[rdavies]

^Praise Allah!

[ArgoGabe22]

Sorry but these kind of comments are just as ludicrous as giving Rider fans credit for skewing everything. There's only one million people in Saskatchewan and contrary to popular belief they're not all Rider fans, they're not skewing the TV rating in a Toronto vs Hamilton game that rates over a million. Hard as it may be to believe but it's the people from the GTA watching it.

Rider fans are not only in the province of Saskatchewan. Most fans who attend Rider games in Toronto are actually locals. Every cfl fan forum knows that all polls are dominated by Rider fans. TSN asks for game of the week to replay on TSN2 and most often a Riders game will be selected even though a better game was played that week. Not sure who's talking about tv ratings.

[rdavies]

TSN asks for game of the week to replay on TSN2 and most often a Riders game will be selected even though a better game was played that week.Do ya think that may be because their home games have atmosphere and are sold out and not played in a half empty concrete mausoleum.

Look, all I wanna do is get some positive PR for the Argos and I'll use whatever is at my disposal, be it popular cheerleaders or an unscientific poll that has favourable results. Really can't understand the pushback from this, helps me understand why the Argos are having the problems that they are.

[ArgoGabe22]

Do ya think that may be because their home games have atmosphere and are sold out and not played in a half empty concrete mausoleum.

Ummm...no. It's because fans voted for that game.

[rdavies]

And why do you suppose that is?

[bluto]

The argument that 95% (exaggerating) of people who watch Argos games are not from Toronto is ludicrous. What about vs Hamilton? If the southern Ontario market is so moribund then why does that game get big numbers, Saskatchewan people have a thing for Hamilton?

Yes, it's an unscientific poll, that is open to anyone across Canada to vote, but it is most likely that it is people from southern Ontario going to the Toronto Star website. Do you go to the Halifax Chronically Horrid to vote on polls very much?

Canoe.ca often runs polls and I can almost always forecast what the results will be. They almost always echo public sentiment and that's what I think this poll does.

Just wonder why some people here seem to be fighting it. With friends like that who needs enemies. You do what everybody else does. Spin, spin, spin and this has given you something to work with.

it's ludicrous because in the same articles which publish the ratings, it is not uncommon for them to give the GTA ratings along with them. the Argos kill in the ratings. end of.

[LLB997]

This Is not the 1st of these polls, they do it yearly at the sun with there best of Toronto lists and the last few years have shown the exact result Leafs,Jays,Argos with no mention of nonames or raps. I do believe it has validity but according to the media the Argos are still worth zero dollars and they have 10 thousand fans at most. these polls will be touted when they get the desired result and ignored until then.

[rdavies]

Regarding how accurate or scientific this poll is, it's interesting that over the course of over 400 votes since I've been tracking it, that the voting has been pretty consistent which says to me that it is a fairly accurate assessment of the original question.

[paulwoods13]

A sample of 1,600 people gives you a margin of error of 2.5 percent, which is pretty good for a poll. Yes, I know it isn't a proper scientific poll but I can't help but wonder WTH is wrong with people here questioning a gift that has been thrown into your lap.


Find me one actual pollster who would credit an online survey that anyone can answer with any kind of margin of error. You won't be able to.

[rdavies]

Had this been a targeted poll (which it wasn't) it could be given a margin of error. I assume you are questioning it as an untargeted poll rather than the fact it was done online. Bruce Paul, VP, International Research AC Nielsen concludes; moving research from telephone or mail or face-to-face to the Internet can increase speed, add accuracy and save costs. But each case should be evaluated carefully, preferably with a parallel test, to make sure that it truly merits the switch.

Do you think this poll would be much different with proper sampling, I don't because it has remained consistent as the number of respondents increases.

[paulwoods13]

Had this been a targeted poll (which it wasn't) it could be given a margin of error. I assume you are questioning it as an untargeted poll rather than the fact it was done online. Bruce Paul, VP, International Research AC Nielsen concludes; moving research from telephone or mail or face-to-face to the Internet can increase speed, add accuracy and save costs. But each case should be evaluated carefully, preferably with a parallel test, to make sure that it truly merits the switch.

Do you think this poll would be much different with proper sampling, I don't because it has remained consistent as the number of respondents increases.

My opinion of opinion polls -- the scientific "pull" ones, not the random "pull" ones, which IMO don't merit consideration at all -- is that they are always overblown and over-credited. At best they represent a snapshot of how a selected group of individuals responded to properly designed questions over a given time period. They do NOT represent how any population thinks NOW. And the recent track record of professional pollsters (vis-a-vis elections in Canada) is atrocious as a predictor of what will happen.

[argotom]

This Is not the 1st of these polls, they do it yearly at the sun with there best of Toronto lists and the last few years have shown the exact result Leafs,Jays,Argos with no mention of nonames or raps. I do believe it has validity but according to the media the Argos are still worth zero dollars and they have 10 thousand fans at most. these polls will be touted when they get the desired result and ignored until then.

Very good summary.
On top of which no one watches them and we know that is another big lie to the tune of 800,000 viewers per game, only a close second to the NHL figures!

[Fumblitis]

There's only one million people in Saskatchewan and contrary to popular belief they're not all Rider fans, they're not skewing the TV rating in a Toronto vs Hamilton game that rates over a million.. Actually, the non Rider fans that like other CFL teams in Saskatchewan can easily be fit into an average sized lecture hall on any university campus. They are few and far between. Any other non Rider fans are either 1) Not football fans and 2) Have a symptom called "NFL onlyitis" much the same as many from the 416.

[rdavies]

Any other non Rider fans are either 1) Not football fans and 2) Have a symptom called "NFL onlyitis" much the same as many from the 416.I was speaking of the folks who were visible and posting comments on forums during the stadium debate.

Back to the poll, still remarkably consistent over the 700 votes since I've been watching.

[T-Bone]

Don't forget to vote in this weeks poll (http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/would-be-citizens-want-to-give-oath-to-canada-not-queen-1.1765813)!

[Ballstothewall]

Some don't seem to grasp the signifigance of this. It doesn't matter if the poll is correct or even scientifically accurate (although it is a fairly larger sample), it's about perception. Rational thinking people see that and wonder why the Argos get little coverage or are derided by other so-called sports fans. It's a positive that can be used. When people are spilling things like this in your lap, you don't dismiss them, you use them.
well said, its big picture thinking, that some people don"t get

[T-Bone]

its big picture thinking, that some people don"t get
Ya, like when Cynamon & Sokolowski pulled out of the York University stadium deal.

[Ballstothewall]

Ya, like when Cynamon & Sokolowski pulled out of the York University stadium deal.

Yeah, there the same thing

[rdavies]

April 5/2014

http://i59.tinypic.com/xegcvr.jpg

April 6/2014

http://i57.tinypic.com/2i6yvzm.jpg

April 12/2014

http://i62.tinypic.com/4loqq9.jpg

[1argoholic]

Watching baseball highlights shows that crowds at games isn't what keeps the sport alive. Every stadium is friggin empty.

[Neely2005]

Watching baseball highlights shows that crowds at games isn't what keeps the sport alive. Every stadium is friggin empty.

More and more it's about the television contract. And baseball has a very good one.

[OV Argo]

Watching baseball highlights shows that crowds at games isn't what keeps the sport alive. Every stadium is friggin empty.


Joe average sports fan being less & less able to shell out big bucks to attend "major league" sporting events" ? - MLB baseball has fricking 81 home games to attend; NHL hockey has 42. The CFL has 9 - that the Argos can't put 25+K bums in the seats consistently = ... ???

[ArgoRavi]

Joe average sports fan being less & less able to shell out big bucks to attend "major league" sporting events" ? - MLB baseball has fricking 81 home games to attend; NHL hockey has 42. The CFL has 9 - that the Argos can't put 25+K bums in the seats consistently = ... ??? I was amazed to see full arenas in both Edmonton and Ottawa tonight although I should not have been. There should have been thousands of empty seats at both of those games given the subpar seasons of all of the teams involved and the Oilers having been so bad for so long. As recently as the 1990s, there would have been too but it seems as though Canadian hockey fans will accept just about anything these days including labour disruptions which knock a full or half season off. On the other hand, if a CFL team has one non-playoff season, they seem to pay a price at the gate for it.

[OV Argo]

I was amazed to see full arenas in both Edmonton and Ottawa tonight although I should not have been. There should have been thousands of empty seats at both of those games given the subpar seasons of all of the teams involved and the Oilers having been so bad for so long. As recently as the 1990s, there would have been too but it seems as though Canadian hockey fans will accept just about anything these days including labour disruptions which knock a full or half season off. On the other hand, if a CFL team has one non-playoff season, they seem to pay a price at the gate for it.


The NHL gets wall to wall fawning media coverage up here; never under estimate that factor Ravi. OTOH - the CFL has long ago been sold down the river in it's own country by wannabes in the media who look down their noses at the CFL for being Canadian only / not "major league" or else ignore it or give minimal coverage; joe average lemming sports fan taken along for the ride.

[Argocister]

Ottawa will be full as Leafs fans bought their tickets eons ago..... Edmonton because Smyth was retiring.
Plus,, the schedule was smart with rivalries being played out at the end of the season.

But I agree, it is Canada.... isn't it similar to the US and football ? Religious like

[T-Bone]

Watching baseball highlights shows that crowds at games isn't what keeps the sport alive. Every stadium is friggin empty.
For those that care about the numbers: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly of MLB's 2013 Attendance (http://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2013/10/03/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-of-mlbs-2013-attendance/)

[ArgoRavi]

The NHL gets wall to wall fawning media coverage up here; never under estimate that factor Ravi. OTOH - the CFL has long ago been sold down the river in it's own country by wannabes in the media who look down their noses at the CFL for being Canadian only / not "major league" or else ignore it or give minimal coverage; joe average lemming sports fan taken along for the ride. The NHL has it made in this country and no team more than the Leafs. CBC News Channel and CTV News Network both broke into their coverage for the Brendan Shanahan press conference today which, while significant sports news, did not warrant interrupting far more important actual news IMO. I recall that in the 1980s, it had to be an enormous sports story such as the Alouettes folding or the trade of Gretzky for it to be part of national newscasts. Today, the hiring of a new president of an NHL team is enough to be one of the big national news stories of the day.

[OV Argo]

The NHL has it made in this country and no team more than the Leafs. CBC News Channel and CTV News Network both broke into their coverage for the Brendan Shanahan press conference today which, while significant sports news, did not warrant interrupting far more important actual news IMO. I recall that in the 1980s, it had to be an enormous sports story such as the Alouettes folding or the trade of Gretzky for it to be part of national newscasts. Today, the hiring of a new president of an NHL team is enough to be one of the big national news stories of the day.

Yep Ravi 2 opposites: at one end - the NHL - with tons of coverage, mostly positive or fawning (though some critical stuff) - and lead story usually on all the main media outlets - TV, newspapers, radio sports talk, + all kinds of dedicated hockey magazines and TV hockey talk shows; merchandise and gear out there everywhere, marketing = a HUGE amount of coverage, hype, attention, respect; at the other end - the CFL - very little coverage, often negative or derisive and sometimes even ignored all together - no dedicated CFL football publications (other than the league's own guide) - no fan magazines or fawning TV jock sniffers babbling about every detail of the league, day in day out; little merchandise or info to be seen in the stores or newstands, etc. = very POOR coverage, little hype, little respect.

Again - joe average sports fan lemming - taken along for the ride.

Thank gawd for the internet and the various CFL fan forums (like this one) - to give big CFL fans some news, opinions, and appreciated info.

[1argoholic]

Nice to see other folks who think like I do. I always refer to the follower sports fans as sheep.

[T-Bone]

Nice to see other folks who think like I do. I always refer to the follower sports fans as sheep.
Because anyone that follows any team or league outside of the CFL must be a "sheep" or a "lemming." Funny you talk about their narrow minded thinking for dismissing the CFL, yet you and OV Argo's line of thinking is narrower.

[OV Argo]

Because anyone that follows any team or league outside of the CFL must be a "sheep" or a "lemming." Funny you talk about their narrow minded thinking for dismissing the CFL, yet you and OV Argo's line of thinking is narrower.

Nice job of spinning or misconstruing their pal; more like your types - the ones who don't like to hear opinions other than their own narrow views and who put words in others mouths as a way to reply - are sheep like.

Why don't you stick to the footy forum? - you know nothing about Canadian football and your whole reason to be here is to defend other sports, or nit-pick arguments with Argo/CFL fans.

[T-Bone]

Nice job of spinning or misconstruing their pal; more like your types - the ones who don't like to hear opinions other than their own narrow views and who put words in others mouths as a way to reply - are sheep like.
I was exaggerating but calling people "joe average sports fan lemmings" or "sheep" does not help attract people to the Argonauts, the CFL, or this forum. Yes, the Argonauts don't get their fair shake in the Toronto media but just because other stuff gets more coverage doesn't mean the average person is a brainless drone that can't see through the media hype, it's a more complex issue.


Why don't you stick to the footy forum? - you know nothing about Canadian football and your whole reason to be here is to defend other sports, or nit-pick arguments with Argo/CFL fans.
I'm an Argo fan, that's why I don't just stick to the footy forums. I wasn't aware you are telepathic but I guess you already know that. Unlike some people I don't become an attendance expert by watching a highlight reel, I have to do some research. If I see the Argos misrepresented in that fashion elsewhere I do the same as I do here and try to use facts to clear things up. I also post game day information for Argo games on a footy forum I frequent just like I do TFC games here. Anyway, you are free to believe whatever you like. Carry on.

[paulwoods13]

OV, "you know nothing about Canadian football and your whole reason to be here is to defend other sports, or nit-pick arguments with Argo/CFL fans" was both erroneous and uncalled for. T-Bone has made tons of valid points in his posts over the past couple of years, and is demonstrably both knowledgeable about and a fan of the Argos and CFL. I hope you will reconsider and ultimately rescind that comment. I, for one, want T-Bone on here as much as I want you (i.e. a lot).

[Will]

Your comment is uncalled for, OV. The attitude of some Toronto FC fans vis-a-vis the Argos may be atrocious, but the attitude of some here is arguably just as bad. Nobody is saying you have to cheer for any team you don't want to, but I frankly don't understand why some people on here feel the need to put down other sports. Does defending the CFL require putting down other sports?

[OV Argo]

The guy jumped on my post (back-door - attaching it to arogholic's thoughts), spun it his way / put words in my mouth: saying I claimed "anyone that follows any team or league outside of the CFL must be a sheep or a lemming" - I said no such thing. But it is typical of some of these forum posters to use that little tactic to try to belittle the opinions of others they just can't bear to here. Instead of countering with a reasoned argument - like - "why no, the CFL gets lots of respect and average sports fans easily would be inclined to follow the Argos, and here's why i think so ...", he tries to twist my words. Or maybe he just needs reading comprehension help?

I guess - Paul or 87 - you're OK with that though, and good for you. I think T-Bone can defend himself, he did reply, but maybe he needs your help too. And I guess his twisting of my words was called for ?

[T-Bone]

The guy jumped on my post (back-door - attaching it to arogholic's thoughts), spun it his way / put words in my mouth: saying I claimed "anyone that follows any team or league outside of the CFL must be a sheep or a lemming" - I said no such thing.
Ok, I apologize for that. It was aimed more at 1argoholic, which is why I quoted him.


But it is typical of some of these forum posters to use that little tactic to try to belittle the opinions of others they just can't bear to here. Instead of countering with a reasoned argument - like - "why no, the CFL gets lots of respect and average sports fans easily would be inclined to follow the Argos, and here's why i think so ...", he tries to twist my words. Or maybe he just needs reading comprehension help?
I understood your argument but like I said I think it's more complicated than just:


very little coverage, often negative or derisive and sometimes even ignored all together - no dedicated CFL football publications (other than the league's own guide) - no fan magazines or fawning TV jock sniffers babbling about every detail of the league, day in day out; little merchandise or info to be seen in the stores or newstands, etc. = very POOR coverage, little hype, little respect.

Again - joe average sports fan lemming - taken along for the ride.
Also reducing people to mindless drones by calling them "joe average sports fan lemming" or "sheep" doesn't enhance your position. In my opinion that is narrow minded thinking, people are more complex than that. Than again I could be wrong though as I know nothing about Canadian football.

[paulwoods13]

Nice to see other folks who think like I do. I always refer to the follower sports fans as sheep.

Does no one other than T-Bone see the irony in these two sentences being written back to back?


The guy jumped on my post (back-door - attaching it to arogholic's thoughts), spun it his way / put words in my mouth: saying I claimed "anyone that follows any team or league outside of the CFL must be a sheep or a lemming" - I said no such thing. But it is typical of some of these forum posters to use that little tactic to try to belittle the opinions of others they just can't bear to here. Instead of countering with a reasoned argument - like - "why no, the CFL gets lots of respect and average sports fans easily would be inclined to follow the Argos, and here's why i think so ...", he tries to twist my words. Or maybe he just needs reading comprehension help?

I guess - Paul or 87 - you're OK with that though, and good for you. I think T-Bone can defend himself, he did reply, but maybe he needs your help too. And I guess his twisting of my words was called for ?

OV, IMO you are both taking it too personally and reading things into it that are not there. He was not even responding to your post, altho he did use a word you had used ("lemming," which most people would view as an insult). You responded with "you know nothing about Canadian football . . . " which is certifiably untrue and incredibly insulting to a fellow Argo fan, the vast majority of whose posts are thoughtful and thought-provoking. You complain about lemmings etc. in the media parroting an anti-CFL line, but when someone pushes back fairly mildly, he is accused of knowing nothing about the CFL. Aside from being highly ironic, that does not contribute to a climate of free expression and debate.

[Invader]

Back to CTV's poll. I think by any estimation the 20% vote for the Argos as the most favourite Toronto team is reassuring (especially with them being "out of the news" for the past 5 months or so.) The result is even more surprising with the poll being buried at the bottom of a Blue Jay's news story, trumpeting their biggest day of the season.

Like I wrote previously, what if the poll was accompanying an Argos news story on their biggest day of the season? The Argos vote would be even higher, probably @ 30% or more...and much higher than the Jays who's season would be long forgotten.

If the truth be told, the Leafs and Argos are the two most popular teams in Toronto. Always has been, always will. You can take all the statistics and on-line polls you want, but football and hockey are the sports Canadian fans like the most...with basketball, soccer, baseball, ect, just part-time time-wasters until the real sports come to play!

I believe we also over-rate the impact of the media on the way people feel. They might be able to sell us Tide instead of Cheer but not make us like basketball or baseball.

We also should remember that on-line polls are for entertainment purposes only and are not necessarily accurate or authentic. It is not uncommon for media outlets to "boost" the number of respondents (sometimes by 10X or more) to prove how popular they are. The results can also be manipulated and altered to suit the purposes of the publication (like the famous Toronto Star "switcherooo" poll during 2008 Super Bowl week. They asked which league do you like the best: NFL or CFL? They had tens of thousands of respondents, with the CFL/NFL about even the first 2 days. Then the CFL edged out in front to 55, 60 then finally 65% by SB Saturday, with the NFL at 35%. Some posters on the 13th Man forum had periodically screen-saved the poll over that week. But when the Star revealed the results on SB Sunday, the NFL was listed at 65% with the CFL at 35%! That was the complete reverse of the final results from the day before. Some fans emailed the Star questioning these results. The Star emailed back claiming they published the actual poll results, the NFL won. But when they were confronted with the screen-saves which showed the real poll results, the Star backtracked and claimed they were holding a contemporaneous NFL/CFL poll in their news section and when they "combined" the results the NFL somehow shot way out in front. Of course, that was a complete lie, there was no sports poll in their news section but that could not be proven. Not sure why the Star decided to boost the NFL in that manner, perhaps to gain favour with Rogers and their new Bills series? In any event it goes to show you can't rely on the authenticity of on-line polls (unless they're conducted by a sanctioned polling agency).

[ArgoGabe22]

you know nothing about Canadian football

If the criteria to be an Argo fan is to have knowledge of Canadian football, then an Argos home game would be practically empty. I hear tons of clueless comments around me all the time at games at the Dome. :D

[Neely2005]

Back to CTV's poll. I think by any estimation the 20% vote for the Argos as the most favourite Toronto team is reassuring (especially with them being "out of the news" for the past 5 months or so.) The result is even more surprising with the poll being buried at the bottom of a Blue Jay's news story, trumpeting their biggest day of the season.

Like I wrote previously, what if the poll was accompanying an Argos news story on their biggest day of the season? The Argos vote would be even higher, probably @ 30% or more...and much higher than the Jays who's season would be long forgotten.

If the truth be told, the Leafs and Argos are the two most popular teams in Toronto. Always has been, always will. You can take all the statistics and on-line polls you want, but football and hockey are the sports Canadian fans like the most...with basketball, soccer, baseball, ect, just part-time time-wasters until the real sports come to play!

I believe we also over-rate the impact of the media on the way people feel. They might be able to sell us Tide instead of Cheer but not make us like basketball or baseball.

We also should remember that on-line polls are for entertainment purposes only and are not necessarily accurate or authentic. It is not uncommon for media outlets to "boost" the number of respondents (sometimes by 10X or more) to prove how popular they are. The results can also be manipulated and altered to suit the purposes of the publication (like the famous Toronto Star "switcherooo" poll during 2008 Super Bowl week. They asked which league do you like the best: NFL or CFL? They had tens of thousands of respondents, with the CFL/NFL about even the first 2 days. Then the CFL edged out in front to 55, 60 then finally 65% by SB Saturday, with the NFL at 35%. Some posters on the 13th Man forum had periodically screen-saved the poll over that week. But when the Star revealed the results on SB Sunday, the NFL was listed at 65% with the CFL at 35%! That was the complete reverse of the final results from the day before. Some fans emailed the Star questioning these results. The Star emailed back claiming they published the actual poll results, the NFL won. But when they were confronted with the screen-saves which showed the real poll results, the Star backtracked and claimed they were holding a contemporaneous NFL/CFL poll in their news section and when they "combined" the results the NFL somehow shot way out in front. Of course, that was a complete lie, there was no sports poll in their news section but that could not be proven. Not sure why the Star decided to boost the NFL in that manner, perhaps to gain favour with Rogers and their new Bills series? In any event it goes to show you can't rely on the authenticity of on-line polls (unless they're conducted by a sanctioned polling agency).

Given that the Raptors are in the playoffs I'm actually surprised that they're not higher in the poll.

The Toronto / Red Star trying to manipulate a story to get a certain result? Shocking! :-)

[Tau Ceti]

Nice to see other folks who think like I do. I always refer to the follower sports fans as sheep.


Does no one other than T-Bone see the irony in these two sentences being written back to back?

I also noticed but couldn't decide if it was deliberate or intentional. A post worth framing in either case.




If the truth be told, the Leafs and Argos are the two most popular teams in Toronto. Always has been, always will. You can take all the statistics and on-line polls you want, but football and hockey are the sports Canadian fans like the most...with basketball, soccer, baseball, ect, just part-time time-wasters until the real sports come to play!



Support for the CFL and NFL in combination likely outweighs MLB in Toronto. But to suggest that the Argos alone are more popular than the Blue Jays is unsupportable.

[Neely2005]

I also noticed but couldn't decide if it was deliberate or intentional. A post worth framing in either case.



Support for the CFL and NFL in combination likely outweighs MLB in Toronto. But to suggest that the Argos alone are more popular than the Blue Jays is unsupportable.

Actually you could make that argument.

CFL ratings up due to Southern Ontario:

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-game/key-cfl-television-ratings-increase-surprise-southern-ontario-183017606.html



At an average of 703,000 viewers a game, the CFL stands second only to hockey as this country's most-watched sport. They're ahead of the Toronto Blue Jays' 540,000, a comparable number since the Jays generally play six games a week while the CFL offers up four.


Combined ratings on TSN and French-language RDS averaged 758,000 viewers per game, an increase of 3.6 per cent over 2012. The RDS numbers are down a tad, but considering how far the Montreal Alouettes have fallen there's no real surprise there.


But while overall ratings increases give the league something to crow about, that's not the real big news. The big news is that they're being driven by the most unlikely source of all: Southern Ontario. Ratings for games involving the Toronto Argonauts were up 26 per cent from last year while audiences for Hamilton (Guelph) Tiger-Cats games rose 14 per cent.
Ratings for all CFL games were up 18 per cent from last year in Southern Ontario and the Hamilton-Toronto clash on Thanksgiving Day drew the league's fourth-largest TV audience of the season with 956,000 viewers.

[LLB997]

gonna chime In here for a sec. Ithink Argoholics opinions are reactionary if anything. If the masses threw some respect his way in regards to what he follows I am sure he would return the respect. And calling the majority of Toronto sports followers sheep who lap up what the media shoves own their throat is not far off.

Also not a fan of any poster telling another to leave and follow the footy forum. We need all the fans here and Tbone definitely knows his CFL from what I've read. Tbone is a valued poster on this forum. Lets stick together folks.

ps- tbone. I call your team the nonames in jest due to the fact they have umm no name (fc?) .
its not a reflection on you at all
cheers

[AngeloV]

Given that the Raptors are in the playoffs I'm actually surprised that they're not higher in the poll.

The Toronto / Red Star trying to manipulate a story to get a certain result? Shocking! :-)

Of course, since it was attached to a Blue Jays article, is it not reasonable to think many Raptor fans that aren't into baseball would never have seen this poll? Again, these type of polls are useless.

[Tau Ceti]

CFL ratings up due to Southern Ontario:


That must be the billionth time those stats have been quoted round here. In and of themselves, they're great, and I'm not trying to be a naysayer. But please compare apples to apples. The CFL as a whole and across Canada is more popular than Blue Jays? Sure. The Argos by themselves in Toronto? C'mon. The Blue Jays per game attendance average last year was 9,500 fans better over 81 games compared to just 9 Argos matches. In absolute terms, 2.5 million paid to see the Jays compared to 200,000 for the Argos. I don't know how you can argue the latter is the more popular team. The primary difference is casual fans. If you wanted to suggest hardcore Argos support is not far off the Jays, I'd give qualified agreement (hence results in polls such as this one) but the Jays (and Leafs and even Raptors) are orders of magnitude better at drawing in casual fan spending.

[Invader]

Support for the CFL and NFL in combination likely outweighs MLB in Toronto. But to suggest that the Argos alone are more popular than the Blue Jays is unsupportable.
You are correct Tau Ceti, I was including the CFL and NFL as football and the NHL as hockey.

According to the recent Angus Reid Pro Sports Poll of those who follow a sport "very closely" or "fairly closely:"

Canada:
NHL: 46%
Pro Football: 33%
MLB: 20%
MLS: 9%
NBA: 8%

Ontario:
NHL: 44%
Pro Football: 32%
MLB: 27%
MLS: 7%
NBA: 10%

Toronto:
NHL: 48%
Pro Football: 35%
MLB: 32%
MLS: 9%
NBA: 13%

What these numbers don't tell us is why these people are "following" a particular league. If Canada is anything like the U.S, then gambling/pools are the major interest in the NFL (with 50% of fans following the NFL mainly due to gambling in some surveys). Gambling is much less prevalent in the 8-team CFL, with the majority of fans probably following the CFL because of the actual game.

Across Canada 26% follow the CFL while 21% follow the NFL, for whatever reason.

Also bear in mind the Toronto "breakout" has a relatively small sample size with a substantial range of variability. So a 22% and 30% score, for example, might be reversed if the poll was repeated, 19 times out of 20.

http://www.reginaldbibby.com/images/PRO_SPORTS_Release_1_Thurs_Nov_21_2013.pdf

[AngeloV]

That must be the billionth time those stats have been quoted round here. In and of themselves, they're great, and I'm not trying to be a naysayer. But please compare apples to apples. The CFL as a whole and across Canada is more popular than Blue Jays? Sure. The Argos by themselves in Toronto? C'mon. The Blue Jays per game attendance average last year was 9,500 fans better over 81 games compared to just 9 Argos matches. In absolute terms, 2.5 million paid to see the Jays compared to 200,000 for the Argos. I don't know how you can argue the latter is the more popular team. The primary difference is casual fans. If you wanted to suggest hardcore Argos support is not far off the Jays, I'd give qualified agreement (hence results in polls such as this one) but the Jays (and Leafs and even Raptors) are orders of magnitude better at drawing in casual fan spending.

I have to agree with you. In my opinion, if the Argos were as popular as the other teams in the city as far as "cool" factor, we would likely never have had any discussions of Argos fans hating on the other sports teams in the city. Admittedly, it definitely led to me taking less and less interest in the other teams in this city (excluding the Leafs).

[Neely2005]

That must be the billionth time those stats have been quoted round here. In and of themselves, they're great, and I'm not trying to be a naysayer. But please compare apples to apples. The CFL as a whole and across Canada is more popular than Blue Jays? Sure. The Argos by themselves in Toronto? C'mon. The Blue Jays per game attendance average last year was 9,500 fans better over 81 games compared to just 9 Argos matches. In absolute terms, 2.5 million paid to see the Jays compared to 200,000 for the Argos. I don't know how you can argue the latter is the more popular team. The primary difference is casual fans. If you wanted to suggest hardcore Argos support is not far off the Jays, I'd give qualified agreement (hence results in polls such as this one) but the Jays (and Leafs and even Raptors) are orders of magnitude better at drawing in casual fan spending.

The Blue Jays definitely get better attendance but the Ratings are a different story:

"What a difference a year makes.
Way back in 2013, the Toronto Blue Jays started the season as favourites not only to get back to the playoffs for the first time in 20 years but to bring Canada its third World Series. Fans and media alike wondered why the season was even being played.
As students of history will recall, things didn't quite work out that way.
But the anticipation was something we hadn't seen in two decades with TV ratings shooting through the roof. In fact, Opening Day itself drew an average audience of 1.4 million -- a record for Sportsnet and the kind of numbers baseball hadn't seen in, well, 20 years.
Flash forward to 2014 and things aren't looking quite so rosy. Nobody is expecting the current version of the Jays to win anything -- the same people who picked them for first last season have them last this time around -- and that certainly was reflected in the Opening Day audience of 391,000 on Sportsnet."

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-game/great-canadian-ratings-report-opening-dud-costs-jays-210515088.html

[OV Argo]

gonna chime In here for a sec. Ithink Argoholics opinions are reactionary if anything. If the masses threw some respect his way in regards to what he follows I am sure he would return the respect. And calling the majority of Toronto sports followers sheep who lap up what the media shoves own their throat is not far off.

Also not a fan of any poster telling another to leave and follow the footy forum. We need all the fans here and Tbone definitely knows his CFL from what I've read. Tbone is a valued poster on this forum. Lets stick together folks.

ps- tbone. I call your team the nonames in jest due to the fact they have umm no name (fc?) .
its not a reflection on you at all
cheers

Who referred to the "majority" of Toronto sports fans as sheep or lemmings? - I certainly did not and I don't see that from argoholic either. SO - if you are unsure of a poster's intent/opinion - just ask for further clarification and DO NOT put words in other poster's mouths or assume you understand their opinion.

For the record - IMO - all sports fans are entitled to their fave sport or team to support; and there are no inherently superior sports - football, hockey, baseball, soccer, basketball, tiddly-winks, golf, mud wrestling, strip poker, etc. - they're all good and people should be free to cheer for whatever; and some people really do enjoy multiple sports & teams = swell, fine & dandy.

However - IMO - there are plenty of "joe average sports fans" I'll call them, without much connection or attachment to a given sport - they didn't play it or follow it growing up, they don't know that much about it; and a lot of those types - in finding a sport to follow even casually, are led to a certain sport or team by media reports, hype, marketing, water cooler babble at work, etc. - and i have no problem calling a lot of those types sheep or lemming like - especially the ones that are inclined to look down their noses at or bad mouth the CFL and Canadian football because they were told/sold it isn't cool or "major league" or "world class" by the wannabe experts in the media. Yep, sorry, there are some sheep & lemmings out there. And that some are surprised or aghast that SOME CFL fans, ON A CFL forum, would be pointing out said lemming like behavior, after putting up with years if not decades of CFL cut-downs, dis-respect and ignorance, and are inclined to defend Canadian football - I just don't know what to make of that - yeah, just shocking? But whatever - to each his own.

[Tau Ceti]

You are correct Tau Ceti, I was including the CFL and NFL as football and the NHL as hockey.

According to the recent Angus Reid Pro Sports Poll of those who follow a sport "very closely" or "fairly closely:"
...
What these numbers don't tell us is why these people are "following" a particular league. If Canada is anything like the U.S, then gambling/pools are the major interest in the NFL (with 50% of fans following the NFL mainly due to gambling in some surveys). Gambling is much less prevalent in the 8-team CFL, with the majority of fans probably following the CFL because of the actual game.


Thank you for those numbers Invader. I was looking at the same tonight. Google "Pro Sports Interest in Canada" and you get three pdf's with lots of interesting stuff. I don't know if I agree that fan interest can be properly qualified as less pure because it's based on gambling or not but I take your point. I think NFL interest in Canada is broad demographically but shallow at the level of the individual fan.


If the Argos were as popular as the other teams in the city as far as "cool" factor, we would likely never have had any discussions of Argos fans hating on the other sports teams in the city.

Fully agree.


The Blue Jays definitely get better attendance but the Ratings are a different story:

Blue Jays ratings are perfectly fine. They'll finish between 400,000 and 600,000 depending on how the team does. A ton of MLB teams would kill for their situation. And again, Blue Jays ratings -- based on 162 games -- are about comparable to the CFL in its entirety not the Argos alone.

[LLB997]

Who referred to the "majority" of Toronto sports fans as sheep or lemmings? - I certainly did not and I don't see that from argoholic either. SO - if you are unsure of a poster's intent/opinion - just ask for further clarification and DO NOT put words in other poster's mouths or assume you understand their opinion..


argoholic post on pg 3 - Nice to see other folks who think like I do. I always refer to the follower sports fans as sheep."

OV, cool story bro

[Neely2005]

Blue Jays ratings are perfectly fine. They'll finish between 400,000 and 600,000 depending on how the team does. A ton of MLB teams would kill for their situation. And again, Blue Jays ratings -- based on 162 games -- are about comparable to the CFL in its entirety not the Argos alone.

I agree that it makes sense to compare the Blue Jays to the CFL as a whole. It's the only way that you can get to a similar number of games played per season. Plus the Blue Jays are the only MLB team in Canada so they get support from across the entire country. It's not perfect but it still shows that the CFL beats the Blue Jays in TV ratings.

[T-Bone]

ps- tbone. I call your team the nonames in jest due to the fact they have umm no name (fc?) .
its not a reflection on you at all
cheers
Thank you, but I see it as disrespectful to the team. Adding FC (Football Club) to the end of a city name is traditional in soccer around the world. The name of the team is Toronto FC or TFC for short. I'm also not a fan of people calling the Raptors, Craptors, etc. If someone doesn't like something that's fine but I don't see the point of putting it down constantly.


Who referred to the "majority" of Toronto sports fans as sheep or lemmings? - I certainly did not and I don't see that from argoholic either. SO - if you are unsure of a poster's intent/opinion - just ask for further clarification and DO NOT put words in other poster's mouths or assume you understand their opinion.
To clarify, do you mean like you did here (http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?2436-BMO-2015-season&p=41935&viewfull=1#post41935)?


For the record - IMO - all sports fans are entitled to their fave sport or team to support; and there are no inherently superior sports - football, hockey, baseball, soccer, basketball, tiddly-winks, golf, mud wrestling, strip poker, etc. - they're all good and people should be free to cheer for whatever; and some people really do enjoy multiple sports & teams = swell, fine & dandy.
Thank you for clarifying.


However - IMO - there are plenty of "joe average sports fans" I'll call them, without much connection or attachment to a given sport - they didn't play it or follow it growing up, they don't know that much about it; and a lot of those types - in finding a sport to follow even casually, are led to a certain sport or team by media reports, hype, marketing, water cooler babble at work, etc. - and i have no problem calling a lot of those types sheep or lemming like - especially the ones that are inclined to look down their noses at or bad mouth the CFL and Canadian football because they were told/sold it isn't cool or "major league" or "world class" by the wannabe experts in the media. Yep, sorry, there are some sheep & lemmings out there. And that some are surprised or aghast that SOME CFL fans, ON A CFL forum, would be pointing out said lemming like behavior, after putting up with years if not decades of CFL cut-downs, dis-respect and ignorance, and are inclined to defend Canadian football - I just don't know what to make of that - yeah, just shocking? But whatever - to each his own.
You're entitled to your opinion just as I am mine and in my opinion it's ironic when people complain about something that they themselves do.



Back to the topic at hand:


If the truth be told, the Leafs and Argos are the two most popular teams in Toronto. Always has been, always will. You can take all the statistics and on-line polls you want, but football and hockey are the sports Canadian fans like the most...with basketball, soccer, baseball, ect, just part-time time-wasters until the real sports come to play!
A bold statement but I think you need to define the criteria for "most popular team in Toronto" as popular is a subjective measurement. You said it yourself that online polls are "not necessarily accurate" which is one of the reasons I said way back when:


Ultimately this poll means very little.

[OV Argo]

argoholic post on pg 3 - Nice to see other folks who think like I do. I always refer to the follower sports fans as sheep."

OV, cool story bro

Ummm - calling "follower sports fans" sheep means the same to you as saying the majority of sports fans are sheep ? OK then, but i took it to mean that there are some followers out there, who get easily led or mis-led, and hence they could be compared to sheep or lemmings. Why don't you ask argoholic for clarification to find out if he thinks the "majority" of sports fans are sheep like ?

[Invader]

A bold statement but I think you need to define the criteria for "most popular team in Toronto" as popular is a subjective measurement. You said it yourself that online polls are "not necessarily accurate" which is one of the reasons I said way back when:


Originally Posted by T-Bone
Ultimately this poll means very little.


The CTV poll seems legitimate. There were several posters here who followed the progression during the week and the poll was very consistent with no wild "swings" which would indicate vote tampering. The number of respondents seemed realistic also.

Upon further reflection I'd have to admit the Jays are probably more popular than the Argos today. But the Argos are more popular than their low-level ranking in media coverage might reflect.

The Angus Reid poll showed the CFL was followed closely by 22% of Toronto residents; while the NBA 13%; and the MLS 9%...which was pretty much mirrored in the CTV poll.

So by that measure, the Toronto Argonaut Football Club is about 2 1/2 times more popular than the Toronto Football Club. And despite the Jays attracting 3 times as many fans as the Leafs, the Leafs are about 50% more popular than the Jays.

[T-Bone]

The CTV poll seems legitimate. There were several posters here who followed the progression during the week and the poll was very consistent with no wild "swings" which would indicate vote tampering. The number of respondents seemed realistic also.

Upon further reflection I'd have to admit the Jays are probably more popular than the Argos today. But the Argos are more popular than their low-level ranking in media coverage might reflect.

The Angus Reid poll showed the CFL was followed closely by 22% of Toronto residents; while the NBA 13%; and the MLS 9%...which was pretty much mirrored in the CTV poll.

So by that measure, the Toronto Argonaut Football Club is about 2 1/2 times more popular than the Toronto Football Club. And despite the Jays attracting 3 times as many fans as the Leafs, the Leafs are about 50% more popular than the Jays.
Personally I think more factors should be consider to determine "popularity." If you go by Twitter followers alone it goes as follows:

558K Leafs
415K Jays
398K Raptors
73.8K TFC
41.5K Argos

I think things like season ticket holder numbers, tickets sales, merchandise sales, etc. should be included in to the "popularity" measurement. Ultimately popularity doesn't determine what I enjoy.

[LLB997]

Personally I think more factors should be consider to determine "popularity." If you go by Twitter followers alone it goes as follows:

558K Leafs
415K Jays
398K Raptors
73.8K TFC
41.5K Argos

I think things like season ticket holder numbers, tickets sales, merchandise sales, etc. should be included in to the "popularity" measurement. Ultimately popularity doesn't
determine what I enjoy.

Twatter followers or facebook likes mean little aside from maybe explaining a leagues demographic. Its a genral consensus that CFL fans are a bit older a demo than other leagues. \The older someone is, the less time and interest there is for social media. The Argos are closing in on 30 thousand facebook followers and I would think that many Argos fans are not facebook people. Kinda kills brunts assessment that the Argos have 15 thou fans top when almost twice as many follow them on facebook.

[T-Bone]

Twatter followers or facebook likes mean little aside from maybe explaining a leagues demographic. Its a genral consensus that CFL fans are a bit older a demo than other leagues. \The older someone is, the less time and interest there is for social media. The Argos are closing in on 30 thousand facebook followers and I would think that many Argos fans are not facebook people. Kinda kills brunts assessment that the Argos have 15 thou fans top when almost twice as many follow them on facebook.
Ok, this is why I said to Invader that he needs to define how to measure "popularity" it's not a standard measument. Any of these things alone are not enough in my opinion. I made a suggestion as to some of the things I think should be included. I would like to see the Argos be more "popular" but ultimately it won't change my enjoyment of going to games etc.

[Invader]

Another measure of popularity is the 760,000 average CFL TV rating last year. A late season Argos/Ticats game drew 1 million viewers, with the Eastern Final drawing 1.9 million (those are the average audiences over 3.5 hours). It was reported 3.6 million viewers in the extended Toronto market watched all or part of the Argos Grey Cup win in 2012. Yes, the CFL is popular across Canada, but there were obviously millions of southern Ontario viewers in that grouping. Since the Argos lift all the home blackouts, most fans prefer to watch the team at home, but they're still fans and follow the team.

Not to downgrade Toronto Football Club but for comparison purposes, they did draw only 53,000 viewers last week on Sportsnet. The 2013 MLS Cup viewership in the U.S. dropped 44% last season to the lowest level in league history. No word on Canadian ratings?

I'm a little suspicious of using tweets or "likes" as a guage of anything, rather than tickets sales or TV ratings. Those internet stats can be manipulated by automated systems and exaggerated by over-zealous social management departments of the major league franchises. Also U.S.-based leagues have 10 times the population to draw from, which also benefits their Canadian franchises.

[Neely2005]

Ok, this is why I said to Invader that he needs to define how to measure "popularity" it's not a standard measument. Any of these things alone are not enough in my opinion. I made a suggestion as to some of the things I think should be included. I would like to see the Argos be more "popular" but ultimately it won't change my enjoyment of going to games etc.

I'd say TV Ratings and Attendance would be the best measurements. Not everyone uses social media.

[T-Bone]

I'd say TV Ratings and Attendance would be the best measurements. Not everyone uses social media.
Like I've been saying "popularity" is not a standard measurement and everyone will have a different set of criteria as to measure it. Personally I don't think those two things alone are enough for a fair assessment. I think additionally other measurable aspects of a teams existence should be included. Also, attendance is not always accurate. It would be nice to see it broken down to season ticket holders, tickets sold per game and giveaways to get a more accurate measurement of attendance. Apparently in the C&S days there were a lot more free tickets given away than now. As for TV ratings, I would still like to see the regional numbers for the Argos vs. the national numbers that are always being discussed.

[1argoholic]

Last weekend we stopped the truck to take pictures of cute sheep and baby lambs. Once one saw us and walked away, they all followed that original sheep. Just like Lemmings who for some reason follow the original off a cliff.
Thus my comment of most sports fans are followers who can't make up their own minds. It's not just sports it's that mentality that if the majority of people are into it or doing it that it must be good. This is obviously why marketing works. I remember being the only Argo fan in my group of friends back in the 80's. The rest would mock the team with every loss. I no longer have any of those friends. Yet they all cheered for the loser Leafs.

[Rich]

Thus my comment of most sports fans are followers who can't make up their own minds. It's not just sports it's that mentality that if the majority of people are into it or doing it that it must be good.

I completely agree with the Sheep Theory. This poll almost proves it, showing so many Blue Jay fans at at time when every media outlet, sports and non-sports, was talking about the Blue Jays for a couple of days.

It doesn't have to be a majority of people into it, as long as the media is making a buzz about some team, there will be sheep-like people who will follow and pretend they are fans. I'd say about 10%-20% of Torontonians act this way.

I bet if they redid this poll today 25% of respondents would say the Raptors were their favourite team, because that's what the media, sports and non-sports, is buzzing about today.

[ArgoRavi]

I thought that I would resurrect this thread as there is a new poll on the Toronto Star site about which Toronto sports team you are most passionate about. It located within this article about the Raptors' rising popularity: http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptors/2014/10/28/toronto_raptors_more_popular_than_maple_leafs_not_ as_farfetched_as_it_sounds.html

[Neely2005]

I thought that I would resurrect this thread as there is a new poll on the Toronto Star site about which Toronto sports team you are most passionate about. It located within this article about the Raptors' rising popularity: http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptors/2014/10/28/toronto_raptors_more_popular_than_maple_leafs_not_ as_farfetched_as_it_sounds.html

Our Argonauts are in 4th out of 5 teams.

[AngeloV]

Our Argonauts are in 4th out of 5 teams.

And the Leafs are 3rd, which tells you all you need to know about this poll.

[Neely2005]

And the Leafs are 3rd, which tells you all you need to know about this poll.

True. It's attached to an Raptors article so that's going to increase the Raptors numbers.

[1argoholic]

The Argos lack of constant quality marketing has hurt them in a huge way. I for one don't give a crap about social media but we need a new owner who gets all the ducks in a row. Top office staff including marketing on social media, tv, radio and whatever other means possible. The Raptors followers who jam downtown are basically young folks looking for a fun night and party atmosphere. The Argos right now are a DEAD ZONE!

[Neely2005]

The Argos lack of constant quality marketing has hurt them in a huge way. I for one don't give a crap about social media but we need a new owner who gets all the ducks in a row. Top office staff including marketing on social media, tv, radio and whatever other means possible. The Raptors followers who jam downtown are basically young folks looking for a fun night and party atmosphere. The Argos right now are a DEAD ZONE!

TV advertising is over rated and over priced. There are much more effective ways to spend your advertising dollars.

And don't discount social and online media if you are trying to reach a younger demographic.

[Will]

Neely, 1argoholic does not dismiss social media just points out that he has no personal interest in it.

[argotom]

Neely, 1argoholic does not dismiss social media just points out that he has no personal interest in it.


I have to agree with that to a degree.
Mostly younger demographics who tend to be "hip" and ill informed.
The ones doing the man on the street interview and who could not spell cat even if you spotted the c and the t!
The bandwagon type as well.

[Neely2005]

Neely, 1argoholic does not dismiss social media just points out that he has no personal interest in it.

It's definitely not for everyone but it can be an effective tool to reach the younger demographic.

[QBall]

Apparently you can click 'Return To Poll' after voting and keep voting over and over again.

[ArgoRavi]

Apparently you can click 'Return To Poll' after voting and keep voting over and over again.

LOL, the Argos have almost caught the Leafs!

[Argo57]

Apparently you can click 'Return To Poll' after voting and keep voting over and over again.

Thanks QBall just did my part (and then some)!!

[argos1873]

I just made it an even 1000 for the Scullers ;)

[ArgoRavi]

The Argos are now in first place with a healthy lead of over 200 votes.

[Stouffvillain]

I got this message
"We have received too many votes from you. You will be unblocked after a cooling off period."

Mission accomplished?

Then I hit "View Results" and this message popped up, "We have detected suspicious activity on this poll. Please try again later."

Now....mission accomplished.

Argos were at about 34% of the vote at the time.

[Will]

Which tells everyone everything they need to know about this poll.

[T-Bone]

I got this message
"We have received too many votes from you. You will be unblocked after a cooling off period."

Mission accomplished?

Then I hit "View Results" and this message popped up, "We have detected suspicious activity on this poll. Please try again later."

Now....mission accomplished.

Argos were at about 34% of the vote at the time.
You manipulated the results of a pointless poll. Are Argos ticket/merchandise sales, etc. going to increase as a result? What exactly has been accomplished?

[AngeloV]

You manipulated the results of a pointless poll. Are Argos ticket/merchandise sales, etc. going to increase as a result? What exactly has been accomplished?

Ah..relax T-Bone. All in the name of fun. Why does everything have to be so serious?

[T-Bone]

Ah..relax T-Bone. All in the name of fun. Why does everything have to be so serious?
I'm relaxed. If someone wants to manipulate a pointless poll that's their prerogative. Personally I see that as an even more pointless waste of time than fun as it accomplishes nothing, just my opinion.

[Ballstothewall]

Apparently you can click 'Return To Poll' after voting and keep voting over and over again.

I tried to vote a second time and would not allow me

[Stouffvillain]

You manipulated the results of a pointless poll. Are Argos ticket/merchandise sales, etc. going to increase as a result? What exactly has been accomplished?

Just some fun messing with a media outlet that refuses to acknowledge the Argos exist.

[Rich]

Just some fun messing with a media outlet that refuses to acknowledge the Argos exist.

But if the Argos had finished a solid 4th in the survey, with about 15% of respondents calling them their favourite team, it might have made someone at the Star think twice about ignoring them completely. If anything, blowing the poll up probably makes Argo fans look even more fringe in the eyes of the Star editors.

[ArgoRavi]

But if the Argos had finished a solid 4th in the survey, with about 15% of respondents calling them their favourite team, it might have made someone at the Star think twice about ignoring them completely. If anything, blowing the poll up probably makes Argo fans look even more fringe in the eyes of the Star editors.

It looks like Toronto FC fans got the same idea because they are now in third place ahead of the Jays and Leafs.