August 1, 2014: Toronto Argonauts vs. Montreal Alouettes

[T-Bone]

http://cfl.assets.mrx.ca/shared/sked_blocks_logos/2012_2/2012_schedule_default2/tor.png vs. http://cfl.assets.mrx.ca/shared/sked_blocks_logos/2012_2/2012_schedule_default2/mtl.png

Week 6
Friday, August 1, 2014 at 7:00pm EDT.
Percival Molson Memorial Stadium. Montreal, QC.

TV: TSN (http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/feature/?id=508) - RDS (http://www.rds.ca/football/lcf)
Video Webcast: TSN Go (http://www.tsn.ca/go/) - ESPN3 (http://espn.go.com/watchespn/index/_/type/upcoming/sport/football/search/CFL/)
Radio: TOR: TSN 1050 (http://www.tsn.ca/toronto/feature/?id=43622) - MTL: TSN 690 (http://www.tsn.ca/Montreal/)
Audio Webcast: TOR: Here (http://www.tsn.ca/toronto/listen/) - MTL: Here (http://www.tsn.ca/montreal/listen/)
Satellite Radio: SiriusXM (http://www.siriusxm.ca/sports-schedules/cfl/)

Depth Charts: TOR: Here (http://www.argonauts.ca/depthchart/list/team/7/year/2014) - MTL: Here (http://en.montrealalouettes.com/depthchart/charts/team/9)

Pre-Game Preview: Here (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/99853)

Post-Game Update: Tough Defence Leads Argos to Victory in Montreal (http://argonauts.ca/article/recap-20140801093237)

Final Score: 31-5

[1argoholic]

If we can come up with a good game plan or change what we've been doing by perhaps running more often and keeping penalties down we could win. Penalties alone have killed us.

I want to see more Coombs and Slaton. Slaton looks like a strong powerful runner who might just explode if given more than two or three touches. Loved watching him in his college days. Here we are struggling with rb's again.

If we lose I fear that the season could get away from us. We're injured and our bye really isn't much of one. No telling how fast our injured players come back and how well they do after coming back after long layoffs.

I just have that bad feeling about this year. We have historically really crapped out a year or two after Grey Cup wins. Having said that we still are in the mix in a very poor Eastern Division at this point.

I just hope that we don't lose any more bodies to clean or dirty hits. Just look at Calgary and Cornish after playing Montreal.

[gilthethrill]

Just read in the Montreal Gazette that Ryan Dinwiddie really ripped a strip off his offence prior to the first practise back from the bye week. Troy Smith remains at starting qb while SJ Green may not play.

Expect a low scoring game. If the Argos D can keep Smith in the pocket & force 2 & outs thus winning the field position battle, Watters should be able to give us enough points for a victory before the 11 day break. I will take a depleted Argo team with Ricky Ray any day over a Montreal team with Troy Smith & no real OC.

[ArgoFan1]

I'll be at the game, but I am not expecting much of an offensive show by any team. Probably a 12-9 game. Oh boy. I can't see Montreal winning with Troy Smith. I liked Tanner Marsh since the first time I saw him in pre-season here at Varsity last year, and I think he is the guy they should be developing and giving some more playing time to.

[ArgoRavi]

Jarriel King is on a personal leave from the team. He did say on his Twitter feed on Sunday that he had spent the day at O'Hare Airport in Chicago which I thought to be strange on a short week and he is indeed not going to play on Friday. Wayne Smith will replace King while SirVincent Rogers returns at left tackle: http://www.torontosun.com/2014/07/29/argonauts-making-changes-on-offensive-line

[paulwoods13]

Jarriel King is on a personal leave from the team. He did say on his Twitter feed on Sunday that he had spent the day at O'Hare Airport in Chicago which I thought to be strange on a short week and he is indeed not going to play on Friday. Wayne Smith will replace King while SirVincent Rogers returns at left tackle: http://www.torontosun.com/2014/07/29/argonauts-making-changes-on-offensive-line

Uh-oh. I don't like the way our o-line has been playing, but really not sure how much Smith has left in the tank. And our TC castoff, Jeremy Lewis, is now starting at OT for the Ticats.

[ArgoRavi]

Uh-oh. I don't like the way our o-line has been playing, but really not sure how much Smith has left in the tank. And our TC castoff, Jeremy Lewis, is now starting at OT for the Ticats.

Kiante Tripp is now with the Ticats as well. It is amazing how much recruiting the Argos have done for the Ticats the last couple of years.

[hugoagogo]

Ray certainly needs to adjust to his new crop of receivers. I'm hoping another week with Maurice Mann just makes things better. As far as predictions...hell this season has been a crap shoot. One would expect a low scoring affair, so it'll probably be lights out football. At least we can hope.

[1argoholic]

So far other than one or two games the games around the whole league have sucked. I think it'll be another preseason type game.

[gilthethrill]

Uh-oh. I don't like the way our o-line has been playing, but really not sure how much Smith has left in the tank. And our TC castoff, Jeremy Lewis, is now starting at OT for the Ticats.

I notice Scott Mitchell has been elevated to the main roster from the PR. I gather he will dress on Friday night. Yes, I noticed Lewis playing ok on Saturday against Ottawa.

[paulwoods13]

I notice Scott Mitchell has been elevated to the main roster from the PR. I gather he will dress on Friday night. Yes, I noticed Lewis playing ok on Saturday against Ottawa.

Mitchell also dressed last week, as far as I know. He was listed on the depth chart, at least. I wonder what the story was that led to him leaving near the outset of training camp.

[Argocister]

Mitchell also dressed last week, as far as I know. He was listed on the depth chart, at least. I wonder what the story was that led to him leaving near the outset of training camp.
I heard injury .... But will have to look where I read that .

[ArgoGabe22]

Looks like the Als have added Don Matthews to their coaching staff as a consultant - http://cfl.ca/article/the-don-returns-matthews-joins-als-as-consultant


I heard injury .... But will have to look where I read that .

Correct. He failed his physical and once healthy the Argos re-signed him. Confirmed from his agent, Darren Gill.

[294life]

Don Matthews returns to the als as a consultant. Must be funny for him to watch the two teams he won three grey cups with go at each other. Weather looks to be nice. 40% chance of rain for you folk driving on down.

[argolio]

Consultant? Let the speculation over the future of Higgins begin!

[ArgoRavi]

Consultant? Let the speculation over the future of Higgins begin!

Higgins was the one who took over from Matthews when the latter had a controversial exit from Edmonton back in 2001. I doubt that The Don wants to get back into coaching full-time but one never knows. The Turk Schoenert hiring is at least as interesting as I believe that Popp interviewed him for the head coaching job last year before settling on Dan Hawkins.

[argolio]

I always think of Turk Schonert as the QB at Stanford before John Elway. He was involved in a somewhat famous upset tie against a loaded USC team in 1979. More useless trivia: Elway's successor at Stanford, a guy named John Paye, also played for Stanford's basketball team, and he was the point guard when Stanford played a game against the U of T at Varsity Arena in (I think) 1984.

Who knows how these changes will affect the Als on the field, but no one can say that Wettenhall and Popp sit on their hands when things aren't going well.

[gilthethrill]

I always think of Turk Schonert as the QB at Stanford before John Elway. He was involved in a somewhat famous upset tie against a loaded USC team in 1979. More useless trivia: Elway's successor at Stanford, a guy named John Paye, also played for Stanford's basketball team, and he was the point guard when Stanford played a game against the U of T at Varsity Arena in (I think) 1984.

Who knows how these changes will affect the Als on the field, but no one can say that Wettenhall and Popp sit on their hands when things aren't going well.

So, what was the result of the basketball game between Stanford & U of T? Was that around the same time Toronto (Tornados?) had a team in the old CBA that played out of Varsity?

[Argo57]

Don Matthews returns to the als as a consultant. Must be funny for him to watch the two teams he won three grey cups with go at each other. Weather looks to be nice. 40% chance of rain for you folk driving on down.

I say we should counter with OB as our consultant for this game.

[argotom]

With the Als in even more turmoil then us, this has to be our comeback game even with the key injuries.

[argolio]

So, what was the result of the basketball game between Stanford & U of T? Was that around the same time Toronto (Tornados?) had a team in the old CBA that played out of Varsity?Yeah, same time.

I think Stanford won, but I'm not 100% sure.

[hugoagogo]

Consultant? Let the speculation over the future of Higgins begin!

Higgins and Matthews certainly had differences of opinion in the Edmonton days - especially when it came to quarterbacks. I don't think the Don has interest in full time coaching, and right now, I think Higgins is open to suggestions, considering the blunders so far. He at least better be if Matthews is reporting to Popp. This could be a three-ringer before it's over. Personally I think Don is going to be paying closer attention to the assistant coaches and not Higgins. It's a clusterfrack with the offense right now and I think Dinwiddie is in way over his head. To be fair, he wasn't ready. That would be like handing over the OC title to Jason Maas right now. Good head on his shoulders, but a couple more years learning his craft is a good thing. Perhaps AC might make his OC coaching debut before the season is out???

[doubleblue]

Jarriel King is on a personal leave from the team. He did say on his Twitter feed on Sunday that he had spent the day at O'Hare Airport in Chicago which I thought to be strange on a short week and he is indeed not going to play on Friday. Wayne Smith will replace King while SirVincent Rogers returns at left tackle: http://www.torontosun.com/2014/07/29/argonauts-making-changes-on-offensive-line

I thought the O-Line was one spot the Argos were ok going into this season. Switching King and Van Zeyl was the only change. IMO King was better at tackle than Van Zeyl. Don't know if that has had any effect on the pass blocking, but it has broken down quite a bit so far this year. I was also a little surprised they didn't bring in and keep a back up Import and the only guy they did was released and grabbed by Hamilton. Lewis would have been a good replacement for King right about now.

[paulwoods13]

Depth chart is here: http://cfl.uploads.mrx.ca/league/pdf/en/depth/2014/2014_RegSeasonGame6atMtlAug1070827.pdf

King still listed on the 46 but obviously he won't dress. One other INT sits, I'm guessing MLB Jones. Interestingly Robinson remains listed as starting at OLB even though Molden is back on the 46. Gillanders is sitting. One more NAT sits, presumably Hood or Adjei.

[Wobbler]

Gibson, who had been starting at DE for most of the season, has been 6-gamed. At least it wasn't another receiver.

[gilthethrill]

Depth chart is here: http://cfl.uploads.mrx.ca/league/pdf/en/depth/2014/2014_RegSeasonGame6atMtlAug1070827.pdf

King still listed on the 46 but obviously he won't dress. One other INT sits, I'm guessing MLB Jones. Interestingly Robinson remains listed as starting at OLB even though Molden is back on the 46. Gillanders is sitting. One more NAT sits, presumably Hood or Adjei.

Do you think Gill gets to wear a uniform tonight? He has finally made it to the 46 but appears to be listed down the depth chart. I notice Whiteside gets the start ahead of the recently seriously injured Gibson.

[shayman]

Yeah, same time.

I think Stanford won, but I'm not 100% sure.
That'd be the 1985 "Can-Am Challenge" - a 4 team tournament at U of T featuring Stanford, American U (of Washington DC), Toronto and Waterloo.

Waterloo beat American 100-89, Toronto beat American by 2 in double OT, but both Canadian schools got totally crushed by Stanford. (Waterloo lost by 50, I forget the U of T score but it was similar.)

Two days later Waterloo was ranked #1 in Canada. Things are different now with Canada's #1 (Carleton) routinely beating US division 1 schools.

[Note: I was googling around to try to find the results and came across a 1985 article from Imprint, the Waterloo student newspaper, talking about the tournament. Only after reading the article and writing up this post did I notice that the author of the article was actually, uh, me in a previous life.]

[ArgoRavi]

Do you think Gill gets to wear a uniform tonight? He has finally made it to the 46 but appears to be listed down the depth chart. I notice Whiteside gets the start ahead of the recently seriously injured Gibson.

What happened to Gibson?

[gilthethrill]

What happened to Gibson?

Good question...hard to get consistent injury reports unless a star player goes down.....could Owens be back for the Winnipeg game?

[argonaut11xx]

Don Matthews is the greatest coach in CFL history, no doubt, and having him back in the CFL in any capacity is a good thing, IMO.

That said, a Two-Four of breakfast beers, and Rick Worman's offence would probably fix the Al's alot faster than Turk and "The Don"

This should be a "gimme" for the double blue, and thats why im very nervous about this game.

The O line has been terrible, Mo Mann is being touted as a saviour, and Romby Bryant is looking pretty good in the peg...its like this team is reverse recruiting

[ArgoRavi]

Don Matthews is the greatest coach in CFL history, no doubt, and having him back in the CFL in any capacity is a good thing, IMO.

That said, a Two-Four of breakfast beers, and Rick Worman's offence would probably fix the Al's alot faster than Turk and "The Don"

This should be a "gimme" for the double blue, and thats why im very nervous about this game.

The O line has been terrible, Mo Mann is being touted as a saviour, and Romby Bryant is looking pretty good in the peg...its like this team is reverse recruiting

I suspect that Bryant would have never been released if the Argos had known that four starting receivers - and their top four at that - would all be injured at the same time. Every team tries to plan for injuries but you really can't plan for that quantity at one key position.

[argotom]

I suspect that Bryant would have never been released if the Argos had known that four starting receivers - and their top four at that - would all be injured at the same time. Every team tries to plan for injuries but you really can't plan for that quantity at one key position.

Bryant looked good yesterday and far from being finished.

[ArgoRavi]

Bryant looked good yesterday and far from being finished.

I don't think that Bryant is close to being finished either but I believe that he only caught two passes last night.

[jerrym]

Dwight Anderson starts off the penalty parade. Who else (a double entendre)?

[ArgoZ]

Winner takes first place in the East! LOL.

[argotom]

Oh oh, another slow start, with the D on the field way too long.

[jerrym]

Winner takes first place in the East! LOL.

Definition: The Eastern Conference: minor league for the Western Conference.

[jerrym]

Slaton looked damn good on his 16 yard run.

[jerrym]

Rod Black drives me nuts once again with his use of "former NFL player" on every second play and his robot-monotone voice. Can we start a petition to replace him?

[ArgoZ]

Borrrrrrrrrrinnnnnnnnng.

[jerrym]

Argos are very creative at finding ways to end drives.

[Wobbler]

Dang, did Waters just punt 75 yards?

[ArgoZ]

This game is almost unwatchable. I'm gonna do something more constructive with my time, like look up the old Vanilla Ice Ninja Turtles song. Go Ninja, go ninja go! http://youtu.be/GFLGRidfFo4

[jerrym]

The Argo defence seems to be getting better as the season progresses as players start to cohere. The offence seems to be regressing from game to game, if that's possible.

[jerrym]

Of course, as soon as I say the offence is regressing, the Argos score. Keep making me look foolish Argos.

[ArgoRavi]

Dang, did Waters just punt 75 yards?

He punted it from his own 15 to the Montreal 30 with no return. I my math is correct, that would be 65 yards. Rod Black and Forde said absolutely nothing about an outstanding punt there though. His next punt was almost as good too but his field goal kicking has, unfortunately, been a bit wonky so far tonight with two close misses.

[argotom]

You know it's bad when Waters is having an off night.
Otherwise the offense is offensive.
Ray looks horrible, despite the TD pass, throwing behind the receiver.

[jerrym]

Good to see Ben Major, the umpire, back in the game after the cleat near his eye. Having had an eye injury in lacrosse many years ago, I know how dangerous it can be. I was lucky there were no long lasting effects but I didn't know that for a week.

[jerrym]

Slaton has both a good run and a catch for a TD. Even before that he had shown me enough in this game to make him the #1 RB IMO. Make me look even more foolish Argos.

[jerrym]

If Coombs is seriously hurt, that is a big loss, considering how many of the backfield/receivers are already injured and the Canadian/international ratio. The fact Milanovich came out on the field as soon as he was hurt shows how important he thinks Coombs is.

[MEEZY]

Ray looks horrible, despite the TD pass, throwing behind the receiver.

What a shock. Argotom bashing Ray. I've never seen that before.

[jerrym]

The sling tells us the Coombs injury is not minor.

[ArgoGabe22]

Perhaps Milanovich takes a peek at the forum from time to time. Mike Bradwell (a Canadian!) has taken over as the punt returner and is doing a pretty good job so far.

[Wobbler]

I believe that Robert Gill just returned the last punt (rather awkwardly).

[jerrym]

It took four players and 2 broken tackles to bring down Slaton even on a play where he gained no yards.

[Argo57]

Just tuning in is something wrong with Emry, looked like an attempted "bodycheck" on the last sack.

[jerrym]

Jamie Robinson interception for TD! He has shown shades of Byron Parker at times.

[jerrym]

Argos in FIRST PLACE of the minor league of the Western Conference!

[ArgoRavi]

Just tuning in is something wrong with Emry, looked like an attempted "bodycheck" on the last sack.

I noticed that too. I don't know why he isn't wrapping up ball carriers. Otherwise, the defence was outstanding tonight.

It wasn't pretty on offence tonight but they got the job done. With Coombs out now, they are missing, arguably, their top five receivers and Spencer Watt is playing injured as well. Unbelievable. The offensive line was outstanding tonight, btw, with the only "sack" on Ray coming when he tripped over the 55 yard line.

[argotom]

I have to admit that was one boring game and an UGLY win.
Against the better teams out west, we would have been hard pressed.

[jerrym]

Otherwise, the defence was outstanding tonight.

No doubt the Argo defence played well but the big question in determining how well is whether the Montreal offence is really as bad as it looks.

[paulwoods13]

I noticed that too. I don't know why he isn't wrapping up ball carriers.

I actually thought this was Emry's best game, by far. He was far from perfect, but a lot better than he has been, IMO.

[ArgoRavi]

I have to admit that was one boring game and an UGLY win.
Against the better teams out west, we would have been hard pressed.

If you are expecting pretty wins with this many injuries on offence, you are being unreasonable. This is the way they are going to have to continue to win until they get some of their starters back.

[OV Argo]

What a terrible football game; the Als are just brutal on offence; not sure the Argos are that much better.

There's been a bunch of stinker games thus far this season - that might have been the worst. CFL good ole boy offensive "thinkers" are at it big time in terms of same old, predictable offensive game plans: mostly dink & dunk passing games with some bad QBing at times with all sorts of inaccurate passes or else drops by receivers; very little faith in an applied or consistent ground game; very little vertical or deep threat passing. Either that or there are some very good defences out there now = I don't think so - more like some decent to good defences feasting on clueless or talent-less offences. that are hampered by some real boring or dumb-@$$ offensive "coaching". NOT, IMO - much good football going on thus far this CFL season; but at least there could be some sort of "parity" going on this season i guess. Anybody can win any game it seems with ZERO real powerhouse team: the GC Champ Riders got smoked by an iffy Argo team; the undefeated Stumps could barely beat a useless Ticat outfit. Kudos i guess though to the Bummers and Schmoes for rising up from league worst types last season to best in the league types thus far this season (hey - led by ex-Argo coaches !).

[paulwoods13]

Montreal's quarterbacks are truly terrible but the Argo defence still deserves props for a very strong performance. Outstanding games by Gabriel, Laing, Smith and Whiteside. Anderson and Robinson were also very solid, and Okpalaugo also looked sharp. Even Harrell (who still looks way too small to be a useful DT) made a few plays.

The special team kick coverage was outstanding, especially Greg Jones and Ivan Brown. The punt returns were weak when Bradwell was in there but Gill did a nice job on a few kick returns. We are really missing Matt Black, who likely would have replaced Owens on punt returns. Haven't heard if he will be back when his six-game stint ends.

The offensive injuries are truly insane. Coombs is essentially irreplaceable, given that he is like a Durie clone. We clearly will have to keep it together with duct tape and pipe cleaners until we start getting some guys back. Fortunately we seem to have a good RB in Slaton -- we really need to work on developing a running attack to tide us over. I hope King comes back from his "leave" and gets back into the lineup, along with Rogers, Keeping, Holmes and VZ. I haven't liked the o-line much this year but that fivesome gives us the best chance to win, IMO.

Ricky is struggling right now. Obviously the plethora of new receivers is not helping but he seems a bit off and I suspect he might be playing through some sort of injury.

[argotom]

If you are expecting pretty wins with this many injuries on offence, you are being unreasonable. This is the way they are going to have to continue to win until they get some of their starters back.




Except with the injuries, there has to be a progression with the players that have taken over and frankly I have seen a regression.
Slaton to me was the only offensive player that stepped up.
RR and the rest, save and except the O line are not as they say on the same page.

[paulwoods13]

Who has regressed? Certainly not Mann. Fayson hasn't been around long enough to regress. Adams did not have a good game but most of the passes to him were behind him or in a difficult spot.

[argotom]

Who has regressed? Certainly not Mann. Fayson hasn't been around long enough to regress. Adams did not have a good game but most of the passes to him were behind him or in a difficult spot.

That I do agree with, RR was not sharp tonight.
A lot of the passes caught were behind including Slaton's 2 TD's.
Other incompletions were well short on the carpet.
Other then the Riders win, he has been well below his career standard and in fact below average.

[paulwoods13]

Other then the Riders win, he has been well below his career standard and in fact below average.

Oh, come on! The guy is still leading the league in passing yards and before tonight was completing 70% of his passes. If he is below average, then every other QB in the league is far, far below average. Which by definition would mean he is above average.

[jerrym]

Slaton not only had 100 yards but it was well balanced with 52 rushing and 48 receiving showing he is a dual threat and should remain the number 1 RB.
Mo Mann has played, IMO, his best two games as an Argo not simply because of the number of receptions or yardage but because he always seemed to be focused in the game, something that did not always happen in the past.
The loss of Coombs, especially with Durie out, leaves a big hole that will be obvious until at least one of them returns.

[OV Argo]

Oh, come on! The guy is still leading the league in passing yards and before tonight was completing 70% of his passes. If he is below average, then every other QB in the league is far, far below average. Which by definition would mean he is above average.


Ray, IMO, looks wayyyy off form this season; and sure, the injuries at receiver are a factor.

[paulwoods13]

Ray, IMO, looks wayyyy off form this season; and sure, the injuries at receiver are a factor.

I agree that he is out of sync, as I said above. But to suggest he is "below average" is plainly ridiculous. There are nine starting QBs in the league. The "average" QB would be the fifth-best, roughly speaking. Are there four QBs consistently, week after week, outplaying Ray? I haven't seen that. Reilly and Willy have had good starts but after that, who?

[argotom]

Oh, come on! The guy is still leading the league in passing yards and before tonight was completing 70% of his passes. If he is below average, then every other QB in the league is far, far below average. Which by definition would mean he is above average.

No no, these yards, save an except the Riders huge numbers, are not productive yards and are only good for personal stats.
Most are check downs, swing passes dunk and dinks as they say.
Great on the stats but not advancement or moving the sticks related.
Every team in the league knows the book is to put pressure on RR as he is a pocket passer.
So with the pressure put on with the linemen pinning their heads, the d backs are playing up front aggressive.
You did not see RR missing his targets quite a few time tonight, with the thrown balls not leading the receivers?

[Wobbler]

Ray may not have been genuinely sacked, but he certainly took some hits; I'd rate the OL's performance as "OK". Protection was adequate (against an opponent that was pretty demoralized by the second half), but we really can't run inside. We aren't very good at running outside either, mind you, but that's a different issue!

I agree with most of Paul's comments but I'm not quite as enthusiastic about Gabriel's performance. He did well overall, but at least once he seemed to give up on a blitz. Not in the sense of dropping back into coverage, but rather deciding that he probably wouldn't get to the QB and just... letting up early. He's (essentially) a rookie and will learn - I have little doubt that he'll be our safety for a long time.

[jerrym]

You did not see RR missing his targets quite a few time tonight, with the thrown balls not leading the receivers?
Ray has not been as sharp as usual this season but it seemed to me that he threw the ball into the ground more often than usual for a reason: on many of those plays nobody was open or he couldn't see them so he deliberately threw the ball into the ground just beyond the line of scrimmage to avoid a hit and penalty for grounding, not lose yardage due to a sack, and/or avoid throwing an interception.

[MEEZY]

No no, these yards, save an except the Riders huge numbers, are not productive yards and are only good for personal stats.
Most are check downs, swing passes dunk and dinks as they say.
Great on the stats but not advancement or moving the sticks related.
Every team in the league knows the book is to put pressure on RR as he is a pocket passer.
So with the pressure put on with the linemen pinning their heads, the d backs are playing up front aggressive.
You did not see RR missing his targets quite a few time tonight, with the thrown balls not leading the receivers?

Wow...are you kidding me?

Tom, let me give you an analogy.

I have no idea what you do for a living. But let's just improvise, shall we?

Most people work with a team or in a collaborative environment.

So let's say that you're a team leader. Let's say that all of the people working under you are inexperienced, incompetent, or lazy. Let's say that you're the most experienced and hardest working guy on the team.

How would you feel in that situation? No one did what you asked...you're frustrated...of course, your project results aren't going to be what you imagined.

That's what RR is facing. He is playing with ALL rookie or third-string receivers. He is receiving poor protection. His coach is making dumb playcalls.

How did you feel when Tillman practically handed the Argos Ray as a gift? Were you excited or were you in full-bashing mode back then?

Check downs, swing passes, and dink-and-dunk is what most QBs rely on. Feel free to name a QB you would rather have on this team. Willy? He's a raw rookie who would struggle mightily with NO first-line players and poor pass protection. Reilly? He can run but he can't pass. Maybe you want to bring Calvillo out of retirement?

Stop and think for a minute.


Oh, come on! The guy is still leading the league in passing yards and before tonight was completing 70% of his passes. If he is below average, then every other QB in the league is far, far below average. Which by definition would mean he is above average.

Well said, Paul.


And Tom, if you wanna talk about padding stats, Ray had poor stats tonight but got the ever-important "W".

So, clearly, a win is more important to him than "padding stats."

[larz-7]

Ray has not been as sharp as usual this season but it seemed to me that he threw the ball into the ground more often than usual for a reason: on many of those plays nobody was open or he couldn't see them so he deliberately threw the ball into the ground just beyond the line of scrimmage to avoid a hit and penalty for grounding, not lose yardage due to a sack, and/or avoid throwing an interception.
i agree Ray has not been as sharp this year and over his career we have seen this before .Ray needs a break and one of his his receivers come down with a catch that shouldn't of been caught.that and i saw a couple of plays from above as in on my tv and it seems most times he is in plan b.as his receivers are not there yet or open.

[argotom]

Wow...are you kidding me?

Tom, let me give you an analogy.

I have no idea what you do for a living. But let's just improvise, shall we?

Most people work with a team or in a collaborative environment.

So let's say that you're a team leader. Let's say that all of the people working under you are inexperienced, incompetent, or lazy. Let's say that you're the most experienced and hardest working guy on the team.

How would you feel in that situation? No one did what you asked...you're frustrated...of course, your project results aren't going to be what you imagined.

That's what RR is facing. He is playing with ALL rookie or third-string receivers. He is receiving poor protection. His coach is making dumb playcalls.

How did you feel when Tillman practically handed the Argos Ray as a gift? Were you excited or were you in full-bashing mode back then?

Check downs, swing passes, and dink-and-dunk is what most QBs rely on. Feel free to name a QB you would rather have on this team. Willy? He's a raw rookie who would struggle mightily with NO first-line players and poor pass protection. Reilly? He can run but he can't pass. Maybe you want to bring Calvillo out of retirement?

Stop and think for a minute.

Hold on a second, RR is a future hall of famer.
No question about it.
However, he is not having a good season or what some of us are expecting RR to be.
For me and there are others here also echoing the same thing.
Sure there are combination of reasons, but every team has to deal with injuries!
The QB is the face of the offense, you only have to look at the train wreck that is the Als.
The offense is only as good as their leader and especially in the CFL.
As for your other question, there are several and good for the league, young up and coming gunslingers.
Willy, Bo Levi, I like Reilly and there is Zach, any one of them I would take for the present and future.

[ArgoRavi]

Wow...are you kidding me?

Tom, let me give you an analogy.

I have no idea what you do for a living. But let's just improvise, shall we?

Most people work with a team or in a collaborative environment.

So let's say that you're a team leader. Let's say that all of the people working under you are inexperienced, incompetent, or lazy. Let's say that you're the most experienced and hardest working guy on the team.

How would you feel in that situation? No one did what you asked...you're frustrated...of course, your project results aren't going to be what you imagined.

That's what RR is facing. He is playing with ALL rookie or third-string receivers. He is receiving poor protection. His coach is making dumb playcalls.

How did you feel when Tillman practically handed the Argos Ray as a gift? Were you excited or were you in full-bashing mode back then?

Check downs, swing passes, and dink-and-dunk is what most QBs rely on. Feel free to name a QB you would rather have on this team. Willy? He's a raw rookie who would struggle mightily with NO first-line players and poor pass protection. Reilly? He can run but he can't pass. Maybe you want to bring Calvillo out of retirement?

Stop and think for a minute.

I think that argotom wants Zach Collaros to be the Argos' starting QB, Meezy.


but every team has to deal with injuries!

Yes, every team has to deal with injuries but no other team has had almost their entire starting receiving corps injured. I know that I am sounding like a broken record with this but to have to work with an almost entirely new receiving corps is an enormous challenge for even the best QBs.

[argotom]

Yes, every team has to deal with injuries but no other team has had almost their entire starting receiving corps injured. I know that I am sounding like a broken record with this but to have to work with an almost entirely new receiving corps is an enormous challenge for even the best QBs.

That's where the depth in the backups or lack thereof is the key.

[Rich]

I agree that he is out of sync, as I said above. But to suggest he is "below average" is plainly ridiculous. There are nine starting QBs in the league. The "average" QB would be the fifth-best, roughly speaking. Are there four QBs consistently, week after week, outplaying Ray? I haven't seen that. Reilly and Willy have had good starts but after that, who?

Ricky is the highest-paid player in the league. It is reasonable to expect an above average level of play from him, injuries or no injuries.

Meezy is absolutely right when he said good teams can overcome injuries. This happens when the team's top veterans raise the level of their game a notch, find another gear, and lift up all the new guys around them.

It seems like Tom Brady loses half his receiving corps every year thru injuries, yet he always finds a way to make it work with new guys, because he raises his game.

Surely not even Meezy could argue that Ricky has raised the level of his game in the last 3 weeks. And neither has Emry, arguably the second most-important Argo.

Luckily lots of guys on defence really picked up their games tonight, I'm hoping it will rub off a bit on the big guy and everyone else on offence.

[ArgoRavi]

That's where the depth in the backups or lack thereof is the key.

I believe that Duane Forde made a good point tonight though when he said that it takes at least a few weeks before the coaches truly understand the strengths and weaknesses of any new players so that they can properly devise a gameplan for them. The replacements that the Argos have may not be bad players but they are mostly new to the league and certainly to the system and there is an adjustment period for the both the players and coaches.

I can only think of two other times, off the top of my head, where I have seen a receiving corps decimated by injury like the Argos' corps has been this season. Three years ago, the Esks were without most of their starters for a game at home to B.C. and they ended up losing 36-1. The other time I can think of was last year when Hamilton had most of their starting receivers out and were shut out in Regina early in the season. Even then, both the Esks and Ticats were without their top three or four receivers for only a game whereas the Argos have been without their top four for two games and their top three for another game so far.

[gilthethrill]

What I am reminded of watching the Argo offence is the 2010 season. The receivers were just not able to get separation from coverage. I did not see many wide open receivers for Ray to throw to last night, making Ray look really bad. I am not sold on the Defense since they faced no competition...that is to be expected when facing a team that has no real offence due to a coaching change in preseason.

Did anyone else feel bad for Don Matthew when TSN panned on him for a couple of minutes when he was sitting down for what appeared to be a nap? At this stage in his life, I really don't know what he can do for this Montreal team, which is by far the worst in the league.

[paulwoods13]

Ricky is the highest-paid player in the league. It is reasonable to expect an above average level of play from him, injuries or no injuries.

Meezy is absolutely right when he said good teams can overcome injuries. This happens when the team's top veterans raise the level of their game a notch, find another gear, and lift up all the new guys around them.

It seems like Tom Brady loses half his receiving corps every year thru injuries, yet he always finds a way to make it work with new guys, because he raises his game.

Surely not even Meezy could argue that Ricky has raised the level of his game in the last 3 weeks.

What would raising his game look like? Somehow completing a pass to a guy who is not open or ran the wrong route? Forcing throws through the arms of defensive linemen who are mauling the o-line AND getting their arms in the lanes? Sprouting wings on his feet?

I would argue that by finding a way to win, avoiding mistakes and throwing two TD passes to a newbie, Ricky did in fact "raise his game" last night. It's amazing that what he does is never good enough for a few Argo fans. And I fear we are now into the second cycle of Cleo Lemon, i.e. him not being good enough is all we're gonna hear from one poster for the rest of the season.

[Will]

Ray did look off last night and this was the first time where I may have been inclined to not blame the receivers as much though it remains a factor. See a team may expect to have to replace 1 or 2 receivers along the way, but replacing 90÷ of it due to injury is not something I expect that teams think they'll have to do. I'm not ready to throw Ray under the bus yet because Alex Brink and Troy Smith looked horrible.

The Argos defense seems jekyll and hyde so far. In three games they've given up 38 points and in three other games given up 116.

Argos also played a pretty clean game while Montreal was quite undisciplined.

[Argocister]

For what its worth.... 2 cents....

Ray did pick it up last night as he was much more careful not to throw an interception, and guarded the ball much more closely. (except for that damn centre line trip)
I think his missed passes were more the receivers not being in the right spot. Adams missed a number .... and that was sad as I was hoping he would be able to raise the level of his game.
Slaton is a keeper, he runs strong and north south AND he guards the ball well.
I am worried now that Coombs is hurt... especially when you saw him in a sling at the end of the game. That was depressing.
I havent checked the stats but I think we kept the penalties down.
Having Bradwell as KR is an interesting option.... he does run north south though and seemed to make some yardage.


This game was perfectly placed for our team to try and get some chemistry. It looked like we were improving as the game went on .... not ready for the playoffs yet, but if we keep the upward trend we will make it. By then I hope everyone is healthy.... and our backups will have had some good experience under their belt. this game will help boost some confidence as well.

[Argo-Les]

I
posted In another thread I was Impressed with Slaton and now even moreso!
he imo was one of the few on offense tht gave 200% way too go Steve runnin back issue solved he s a good blocker too!
glad too see a win esp goin into bye bye week

[MEEZY]

Hold on a second, RR is a future hall of famer.
No question about it.
However, he is not having a good season or what some of us are expecting RR to be.
For me and there are others here also echoing the same thing.
Sure there are combination of reasons, but every team has to deal with injuries!
The QB is the face of the offense, you only have to look at the train wreck that is the Als.
The offense is only as good as their leader and especially in the CFL.
As for your other question, there are several and good for the league, young up and coming gunslingers.
Willy, Bo Levi, I like Reilly and there is Zach, any one of them I would take for the present and future.

First of all, I could debate that Ray's "not having a good season." Looking at the QB stats, Ray leads the league in passing, is tied for second for TD passes, and has the second-highest QB rating. In comparison to other QBs, Ray is having a decent season.

Let's compare Ray to the other QBs you would prefer:
1) Willy - Ray has a higher QB rating, more yards, more TD passes, the same number of picks, and a higher completion percentage.
2) Mitchell - Ray has more yards, a higher completion percentage, and the same number of TD passes
3) Reilly - Ray has more yards, a higher completion percentage, the same number of picks and a higher QB rating.
4) Collaros - Really? Collaros was brutal in his first few games with Hamilton and now he's on the shelf. Something that Ray was criticized for over the past two years. So youth does not necessarily equate to health nor does it equate to better stats. A better future, maybe.

The above analysis shows that Ray is better than or equal to the other QBs that you would prefer over him. So if he's having a lousy season as are all other CFL QBs, which perhaps constitutes a valid point.

Secondly, assuming that Ray IS having a bad season, its due to having to work with inexperienced receivers that are just learning the system. What we see as poorly-thrown balls may in fact be receivers missing routes. You don't see Ray struggle as much with Owens and Durie in the lineup. Or a undisputed #1 back for that matter.

You're absolutely right Tom, and Rich, that every team has to deal with injuries and that the good teams overcome those injuries. However, Ray is doing all that he can. He's stepping out of his comfort zone to run a lot more than a pocket-passer ordinarily would. He's sticking with his young receivers and being patient in their development by continually going back to them even when they drop the ball (i.e. Darvin Adams). And he doesn't throw his teammates under the bus as would other star players. He would rather take the blame on his shoulders, even if he doesn't deserve it, which prompts a whole flock Ray-haters to emerge from the woodwork. In a way, it may be better that Ray pulls a Jon Cornish or a Henry Burris and takes his teammates to task as a way of motivating them. But that's not his style. To me, all of this is evidence of leadership, to address Gill's previous comment that Ray was a poor leader.


What would raising his game look like? Somehow completing a pass to a guy who is not open or ran the wrong route? Forcing throws through the arms of defensive linemen who are mauling the o-line AND getting their arms in the lanes? Sprouting wings on his feet?

I would argue that by finding a way to win, avoiding mistakes and throwing two TD passes to a newbie, Ricky did in fact "raise his game" last night. It's amazing that what he does is never good enough for a few Argo fans. And I fear we are now into the second cycle of Cleo Lemon, i.e. him not being good enough is all we're gonna hear from one poster for the rest of the season.

Excellent post, Paul. It's actually a group of 3-4 posters, though :)

[Ron]

I'm not ready to throw Ray under the bus yet

Yet? Well when you do make sure Tom gives you the decoder ring for their group.

[argotom]

Excellent post, Paul. It's actually a group of 3-4 posters, though :)


What is a group of 3-4 mean?
This is a debate into the troubles the team has had and no one here has compared RR to Cleo Lemon, to suggest same or to bring up Lemon's name with RR in the same sentence is insanity.
More is expected of a QB with the credentials of RR likely the highest paid athlete in the league, after all the man has been voted by his peers as the best player in the league.
Like I said a sure future hall of famer.
When his play is sub par in comparison to other years like it has been this year, it has to be called out.
After all there is no such thing as an untouchable in sport.

[Ron]

When his play is sub par in comparison to other years like it has been this year, it has to be called out.
.

When your analysis is sub par in comparison to other years like it has been this year, it also has to be called out.

[Argo57]

What is a group of 3-4 mean?
This is a debate into the troubles the team has had and no one here has compared RR to Cleo Lemon, to suggest same or to bring up Lemon's name with RR in the same sentence is insanity.
More is expected of a QB with the credentials of RR likely the highest paid athlete in the league, after all the man has been voted by his peers as the best player in the league.
Like I said a sure future hall of famer.
When his play is sub par in comparison to other years like it has been this year, it has to be called out.
After all there is no such thing as an untouchable in sport.

If one or two receivers were out with injury you could maybe surmise that Ray has been a little off, but when the entire receiving corps is out and now the backups are nicked as well he gets a pass in my books. Let's also factor in the somewhat questionable O-Line play so far this season as well, actually feel bad for the guy!!!

[argotom]

When your analysis is sub par in comparison to other years like it has been this year, it also has to be called out.

That's absolutely ridiculous, others have also said the same thing.
I have never said Ricky is the only reason this team is losing, it's a collaborative effort with other parts and players of the team.
After all look at our record 2-4, which may have been worse had we played any other team yesterday.


If one or two receivers were out with injury you could maybe surmise that Ray has been a little off, but when the entire receiving corps is out and now the backups are nicked as well he gets a pass in my books. Let's also factor in the somewhat questionable O-Line play so far this season as well, actually feel bad for the guy!!!


I agree with you it's a total team effort.
However, the QB being such a pivotal roll on a football team this position is magnified much more so.

[paulwoods13]

More is expected of a QB with the credentials of RR likely the highest paid athlete in the league, after all the man has been voted by his peers as the best player in the league.

So what, exactly, could/should he be doing that would constitute "more"? How should he be playing differently?

[Argo]

Since this thread principally has evolved to discuss Ray's performance (including his performance relative to other QBs), I will add my 2 cents' worth: there's not terribly much wrong with Ray's performance thus far that cannot be explained by the absence of a bunch of starting receivers. When Ray is given quality to work with (e.g. Slaton), good things still happen.

Some comments on the abilities and play of other QBs have been absurd: stating, for example, that Reilly "can't throw"; that "Collaros was brutal in his first few games", etc. (IIRC Collaros - invariably running for his life - was knocked out of action playing in just his second game, playing behind an abysmal O line that allowed 10 sacks in game one and continued that fine play in game two. And the difficulties of the position that Collaros found himself in would have only been compounded in the case of an older pocket passer...)

[1argoholic]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe guys ripping Ray. This is Friggin so laughable. Is it Ray's fault that Barker hasn't found superstars to fill the roll of his injured superstars. You can't replace Owens and Durie. Now even a solid rookie who catching the ball amazingly is injured in Coombs.

When we get our injured guys back we'll be laughing in this really shit filled eastern division.

[argolio]

This is one funny thread.

[Rich]

What would raising his game look like? Somehow completing a pass to a guy who is not open or ran the wrong route? Forcing throws through the arms of defensive linemen who are mauling the o-line AND getting their arms in the lanes? Sprouting wings on his feet?


C'mon Paul. You said "Ricky is struggling right now. Obviously the plethora of new receivers is not helping but he seems a bit off"

You and I are seeing the same thing. I am saying the same thing, and so are several others. Taking into consideration that he's lost all his starting receivers, he still "seems a bit off".

The only point I'm trying to make is that this is the worst possible time for him to be "a bit off". When you have a lot of injuries you need your best guys to be at their very best.

So given all the injuries, Ricky raising his game = Ricky not looking a bit off anymore.

That's not too much to ask from the league's highest-paid player, and I think he knows it, and I fully expect him to play better going forward, because he's a consummate pro.

[paulwoods13]

C'mon Paul. You said "Ricky is struggling right now. Obviously the plethora of new receivers is not helping but he seems a bit off"

You and I are seeing the same thing. I am saying the same thing, and so are several others. Taking into consideration that he's lost all his starting receivers, he still "seems a bit off".

The only point I'm trying to make is that this is the worst possible time for him to be "a bit off". When you have a lot of injuries you need your best guys to be at their very best.

So given all the injuries, Ricky raising his game = Ricky not looking a bit off anymore.

That's not too much to ask from the league's highest-paid player, and I think he knows it, and I fully expect him to play better going forward, because he's a consummate pro.

I also said (to end that sentence) and I suspect he might be playing through some sort of injury.

Obviously I have no inside info but I still think that is possible. He has taken more hits than we'd like, and a few of them have been big ones.

But again, even if he was not off in the slightest, the likelihood of unfettered success is reduced significantly by the receiving corps he is working with. Adams is not Owens, Bradwell is not Durie, Fayson is not Barnes, Mann is not Chiles (altho even Chiles is not Chiles so far this season), Slaton/Johnson/Steele are not Kackert, and none of those guys is Inman. A great throw to a guy who drops it is still an incompletion. A well-designed play that is scuppered by a receiver running the wrong route is still a failure.

If Ray can't match Tom Brady's apparent ability to work with new receivers (some of whom inevitably seem to evolve into stars), I guess we will have to live with that. And again, it is beyond ridiculous to suggest that he has been "below average" this season. He has, however, been "below Ricky Ray 2013," which was one of the greatest levels we have ever seen.

[294life]

Congrats on the weekend toronto sweep guys. Now to see if at least 15,000 can show up on a tuesday night at Rogers. I hear Jarrod Johnson might be heading to the als.

[AngeloV]

Just reading the forum for the first time since before the game.

Although I should be used to it, I can't believe some of the idiotic comments concerning Ray. Has anyone not seen that pretty well all of his "bad" throws have been to receivers that have no separation from coverage? Darvin Adams has had a huge opportunity to step up and clearly has not been able to. Maurice Mann has been trashed on this forum before, but it says a lot for a guy that has been away from the game for 18 months to come in and become the best of the receivers. There is not a team in the league that can lose their top 5 receivers, and only be left with the starting wide side receiver, that will be successful on offence.

[argonaut11xx]

There is not a team in the league that can lose their top 5 receivers, and only be left with the starting wide side receiver, that will be successful on offence.

The quote above is bang on.....that said, the Pickering Dolphins would have beaten the Al's on friday night.
The Argo's need to improve, and get healthy at the same time.

[Argo]

Maurice Mann has been trashed on this forum before, but it says a lot for a guy that has been away from the game for 18 months to come in and become the best of the receivers.

Indeed, it also says a lot about the other receivers.

[gilthethrill]

Congrats on the weekend toronto sweep guys. Now to see if at least 15,000 can show up on a tuesday night at Rogers. I hear Jarrod Johnson might be heading to the als.

Weekend sweep?

[argotom]

Here is another perspective from Steve Simmons in today's Sun.

"RAY AVERAGE WHEN IT COMES TO WINS
Ricky Ray is the only sure-thing Hall of Fame quarterback in the CFL right now.
But when it comes to winning games, he is surprisingly ordinary and certainly no Doug Flutie.
Ray started his 30th regular-season game with the Argos on Friday night in Montreal and despite all his wonderful numbers, and despite throwing just about the most catchable football of all time, he has just 15 wins and 15 losses over three regular seasons in Toronto.
That’s it for the current face of the CFL.
Flutie’s record with the Argos over two seasons was 27-9 with a spectacular Toronto team. And if you look south, you see quarterbacks like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning with remarkable numbers. Manning is 163-73 as an NFL starter. Brady is 148-43 in his time in New England.
Somehow Ray doesn’t translate to victories the same way as other legends do".

[Ron]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe guys ripping Ray. This is Friggin so laughable. Is it Ray's fault that Barker hasn't found superstars to fill the roll of his injured superstars. You can't replace Owens and Durie. Now even a solid rookie who catching the ball amazingly is injured in Coombs.

When we get our injured guys back we'll be laughing in this really shit filled eastern division.

Hey look! You got to be the voice of OPTIMISM! ;)

[ArgoRavi]

Indeed, it also says a lot about the other receivers.

It says that Mann has familiarity with the system and chemistry with Ray because he has played a fair bit with him while the other receivers do not. That is why Barker brought Mann back to the fold.

[AngeloV]

Here is another perspective from Steve Simmons in today's Sun.

"RAY AVERAGE WHEN IT COMES TO WINS
Ricky Ray is the only sure-thing Hall of Fame quarterback in the CFL right now.
But when it comes to winning games, he is surprisingly ordinary and certainly no Doug Flutie.
Ray started his 30th regular-season game with the Argos on Friday night in Montreal and despite all his wonderful numbers, and despite throwing just about the most catchable football of all time, he has just 15 wins and 15 losses over three regular seasons in Toronto.
That’s it for the current face of the CFL.
Flutie’s record with the Argos over two seasons was 27-9 with a spectacular Toronto team. And if you look south, you see quarterbacks like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning with remarkable numbers. Manning is 163-73 as an NFL starter. Brady is 148-43 in his time in New England.
Somehow Ray doesn’t translate to victories the same way as other legends do".

So now after years of trashing Simmons, you cherry pick a column of his because it supports what you have to say? Pretty 2 faced on your part, but not surprising.

Comparing Ray to Flutie makes no sense. Flutie is the best QB I have ever seen play in the CFL.

Comparing a CFL resume to an NFL resume is also riduculous. I have seen many QB's that were mediocre at best put up great winning percentages in the NFL. With 4 downs, it's easy to mask a so so QB. Furthermore, in Brady and Manning, you are talking about the 2 best QB's in the last 20 years.

[argonaut11xx]

Steve Simmons is an idiot......end of story

[Argocister]

Steve Simmons is an idiot......end of story

Totally agree.... Where's that like button?

[1argoholic]

Love Flutie and think he was the best but Flutie's ass got saved by some GREAT talent everywhere he played and his running ability.
Ray won us a Grey Cup and is constantly surrounded by new guys year in and year out. Our threats on O are falling fast and furious. Game in and game out we're losing guys. Adams has been a total flop. We need to get healthy on O period. Everyone will be singing a different tune when Owens and Durie are back. Any team in the league would take Ray in a heartbeat.
Oh and Simmons is a jack off. Actually doing that is as close to a sport as he's ever played.

[ArgoRedneck]

Full roster for the 1st game in the Peg. 21 points against a defence also playing their 1st game as a unit. 21 points does not cut it in the CFL. As teams "D" get better do we think that a healthy Argo "O" would be good enough to win more games? I think that with the "D" allowing 34 and 37 points that both those games would be losses anyways with a healthy "O".

Also funny if you add the points up for all teams in the east, they add up to the amount of points that 1 team in the west has.

[Wobbler]

So... what is your point, ArgoRedneck? Is it that we're bad and we should feel bad?

[ArgoRedneck]

So... what is your point, ArgoRedneck? That we're bad and we should feel bad?

Wob, point is with a healthy team we still would have only 1 more win against an expansion team. Don't feel bad when we get are 4 players back we will start to win. Right?

[argotom]

So now after years of trashing Simmons, you cherry pick a column of his because it supports what you have to say? Pretty 2 faced on your part, but not surprising.

Comparing Ray to Flutie makes no sense. Flutie is the best QB I have ever seen play in the CFL.

Comparing a CFL resume to an NFL resume is also riduculous. I have seen many QB's that were mediocre at best put up great winning percentages in the NFL. With 4 downs, it's easy to mask a so so QB. Furthermore, in Brady and Manning, you are talking about the 2 best QB's in the last 20 years.


I have never said he wasn't an idiot.
Still is and that will never change.
Two faced comment, now that's typical of you though to start blasting people when you do not agree.
My point with the article, I was surprised with the numbers quoted in the CFL.
I do agree with you as well, Flutie was the best QB that I have ever seen in any league and especially during his tenure in the CFL.
But, RR does have a chance like Flutie of being in the Hall.

[OV Argo]

It says that Mann has familiarity with the system and chemistry with Ray because he has played a fair bit with him while the other receivers do not. That is why Barker brought Mann back to the fold.

Yeah - Mann has the familarity with Ray going and he is a CFL vet receiver; and it's very tough to overcome injuries to key starting receivers - however it also might say something about your offence being so dependent on 2 main receivers and maybe something about an inability to find other ways to be productive on offence (like lean on way more ground game, or have some new wrinkles like more deep bombs or some plays to the TE/fullback); and other CFL teams seemed to have shown more depth at receiver with new guys stepping up when it is their turn to play (for whatever reasons) - the Stamps in particular have had very good receiver depth with some bright new guys (West, Price, Fuller) making an impact (they did lose Nik Lewis, Johnny Forzani, Jabari Arthur some or lots to injury last year, plus the new guys mentioned have been nicked some too), and plus they were not afraid to throw the ball to some young / back-up NIs who have had to step-up: Sinopoli, Anthony Parker made impacts last year and Charbonneau-Campeau has played some this season; and they have always utilized their H-back Rob Cote (very good receiver) some in the pass game.

I expected more out of the Argo O lately even with all the losses: Adams or Fayson perhaps and more out of Bradwell, Watt, Dupuis or give Adjei a shot; and they do have Ray at QB who should IMO be able to do well with whoever at receiver (it's not like he's working with guys they just picked-up off the street - they'be been in Argo TC and working in practice with the team all season. Mo Mann - ok, whatever, but I don't buy the excuse of very little for Ray to work with all of a sudden and maybe I agree with Rich a tad here, that Ray could have stepped-up his game some as the vet QB leader - like he has no choice to make poor decisions and try to force the ball into receivers who just can't get open ??? - not a sign of a good QB in any way and perhaps he should speak-up and tell Milanovich and Brady that their offence is too simple and predictable and time for better play-calling or some better use of some of the back pages of the play-bood (or design some new plays) instead of same old, same old?

[paulwoods13]

Here is another perspective from Steve Simmons in today's Sun.

"RAY AVERAGE WHEN IT COMES TO WINS
Ricky Ray is the only sure-thing Hall of Fame quarterback in the CFL right now.
But when it comes to winning games, he is surprisingly ordinary and certainly no Doug Flutie.
Ray started his 30th regular-season game with the Argos on Friday night in Montreal and despite all his wonderful numbers, and despite throwing just about the most catchable football of all time, he has just 15 wins and 15 losses over three regular seasons in Toronto.
That’s it for the current face of the CFL.
Flutie’s record with the Argos over two seasons was 27-9 with a spectacular Toronto team. And if you look south, you see quarterbacks like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning with remarkable numbers. Manning is 163-73 as an NFL starter. Brady is 148-43 in his time in New England.
Somehow Ray doesn’t translate to victories the same way as other legends do".

I'm not going to pile on about a poster here citing Simmons (whose work I happen to like) in defence of his own thesis, but I couldn't help but notice a glaring error in Simmons' report. Flutie was not 27-9 with the Argos. He was 30-6 in regular season, 34-6 including postseason.

[Ron]

Here is another perspective from Steve Simmons in today's Sun.

"RAY AVERAGE WHEN IT COMES TO WINS
Ricky Ray is the only sure-thing Hall of Fame quarterback in the CFL right now.
But when it comes to winning games, he is surprisingly ordinary and certainly no Doug Flutie.
Ray started his 30th regular-season game with the Argos on Friday night in Montreal and despite all his wonderful numbers, and despite throwing just about the most catchable football of all time, he has just 15 wins and 15 losses over three regular seasons in Toronto.
That’s it for the current face of the CFL.
Flutie’s record with the Argos over two seasons was 27-9 with a spectacular Toronto team. And if you look south, you see quarterbacks like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning with remarkable numbers. Manning is 163-73 as an NFL starter. Brady is 148-43 in his time in New England.
Somehow Ray doesn’t translate to victories the same way as other legends do".

LOL. You're now quoting NFL wannabees to make your point? How the credibility has fallen.

[ArgoRavi]

Here is another perspective from Steve Simmons in today's Sun.

"RAY AVERAGE WHEN IT COMES TO WINS
Ricky Ray is the only sure-thing Hall of Fame quarterback in the CFL right now.
But when it comes to winning games, he is surprisingly ordinary and certainly no Doug Flutie.
Ray started his 30th regular-season game with the Argos on Friday night in Montreal and despite all his wonderful numbers, and despite throwing just about the most catchable football of all time, he has just 15 wins and 15 losses over three regular seasons in Toronto.
That’s it for the current face of the CFL.
Flutie’s record with the Argos over two seasons was 27-9 with a spectacular Toronto team. And if you look south, you see quarterbacks like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning with remarkable numbers. Manning is 163-73 as an NFL starter. Brady is 148-43 in his time in New England.
Somehow Ray doesn’t translate to victories the same way as other legends do".

Here is a little counterpoint to Simmons' musings, ArgoTom: http://tipofthetower.com/2014/08/03/toronto-argonauts-ricky-ray-success/

[gilthethrill]

I guess Argos fans who are questioning Ray have no recall of the defense the Argos were able to construct thanks the the US Dispersal draft. Flutie had the luxury of a shut down defense...Ray, not so much. Football is a team game, won lose records for a qb can be deceiving.

[Argocister]

Here is a little counterpoint to Simmons' musings, ArgoTom: http://tipofthetower.com/2014/08/03/toronto-argonauts-ricky-ray-success/

Perfect! the counterpoint is awesome, and reveals much more than Simmons musings (nicely put)