Argo coaches

[eiben35]

When are the Argos going to hire an offensive co-ordinator, d-line coach and linebackers coach? Getting a little late.

[1argoholic]

No kidding! What the hell are they doing?

[Oarsman]

It won't be Chip Garber. He signed on with Winnipeg as one of the coaches.

[argolio]

Our head coach basically is our offensive co-ordinator. I'm not worried about the other spots.

[Area 51]

Wow, this is fantastic news!

Last time I checked the Argo coaching staff, Dyer and Quick were still listed as position coaches. I had no idea they'd been let go - - why is Toronto not publicizing this? It was the same deal with the Tennis Player. There was never any mention of him being out as the OC even though I'm guess he was one of the first to be fired.

I'm sure Dyer was a nice enough guy, but there's a reason he'd been out of football for almost 10 years before joining the Argos. The guy had no clue what was going on with the DLine. Just 2yrs CFL experience - - and that was almost 30yrs ago. The DLine schemes were a complete disaster, but I wonder how much of that was because Steinhauer & Quick trying to protect their own jobs at the expense of the pass rush knowing the secondary & LBs were useless in pass coverage. Dyer couldn't stand up to Steinhauer or Quick so he just went along with whatever they said. How else to explain having your best pass rusher dropping into coverage instead of getting after the QB?

Quick was just as lost as the LB coach, and he seemed like a pompous ass too. But maybe that was a front to cover his insecurity knowing how out of his league he was. Over 30yrs coaching at a bunch of no-name NCAA schools and zero CFL experience? What did anyone expect other than a failure from Quick?

Will Toronto even bring in new coaches for the LBs and DLine? If it's going to be more washouts like Dyer and Quick, don't even bother. Jones cut his teeth as a DLine coach, and I'm positive that he could be the DC and position coach and do a much better job than Dyer did. Same thing with the LBs. Let O'Shea take over that spot in addition to being the ST coordinator and it would be a huge improvement over the garbage job that Quick did.

Either way, it's great news hearing that Dyer and Quick will not be returning next year.

[Mulder]

http://www.argonauts.ca/article/rounding-out-his-staff

MISSISSAUGA – The Toronto Argonauts Football Club is thrilled to announce that Head Coach Scott Milanovich has finalized his coaching staff for the 2012 season. Kez McCorvey has been appointed Receivers Coach and Cory Stone has been named Defensive Line Coach. Milanovich also announced that Jason Maas would shift duties to become the club’s Quarterbacks Coach.

[Oarsman]

http://www.argonauts.ca/article/rounding-out-his-staff

MISSISSAUGA – The Toronto Argonauts Football Club is thrilled to announce that Head Coach Scott Milanovich has finalized his coaching staff for the 2012 season. Kez McCorvey has been appointed Receivers Coach and Cory Stone has been named Defensive Line Coach. Milanovich also announced that Jason Maas would shift duties to become the club’s Quarterbacks Coach.

So, there will be no offensive coordiantor per say - looks like Milanovich will take on both roles.

[ArgoRavi]

http://www.argonauts.ca/article/rounding-out-his-staff

MISSISSAUGA – The Toronto Argonauts Football Club is thrilled to announce that Head Coach Scott Milanovich has finalized his coaching staff for the 2012 season. Kez McCorvey has been appointed Receivers Coach and Cory Stone has been named Defensive Line Coach. Milanovich also announced that Jason Maas would shift duties to become the club’s Quarterbacks Coach.

McCorvey was a receiver for the Esks in the early 2000s. The quarterbacks will certainly have a lot of support with the head coach and QBs coach both being former CFL QBs and Jarious Jackson being a coach of sorts as well..

[Oarsman]

http://www.fanbase.com/Kez-McCorvey

[Will]

There's no linebackers coach, but I very much suspect that our special teams co-ordinator knows enough about playing the linebacking position to be able to provide his wisdom to the linebackers, plus veterans like Younger, Pottinger and Pile can help out Eiben's replacement as well.

[R.J]

Matthew Scianitti ‏ @mscianitti
#Argos confirm Milanovich will "essentially" be the OC. Hoping to speak with him later todayy #CFLDon't know why Milanovich just doesn't name Maas, assistant OC, as his plan all along was to mold someone into that position.

[ticatfan]

http://www.argonauts.ca/article/rounding-out-his-staff

[1argoholic]

Well Mass as the qb coach makes more sense. I wonder how the heck the word gets outs about available coaching spots. Seems like some guys just come out of nowhere. They sure do bounce around alot in the profession. Well we have a young coaching staff which should bring some good passion to the game.

[Area 51]

I wonder how the heck the word gets outs about available coaching spots. Seems like some guys just come out of nowhere.



Good question...and further to that, I wonder how some of these hiring decisions are made.

Apparently, if your Jim Barker you base your decision on a tip from an old neighbour who ran into a guy at the casino pumping nickles into a slot machine. "Tell him he's got a job." Really? Did Barker even bother to ask the guy if he could spell CFL before hiring him? I have a more extensive screening process when I hire people to do a few hours of yard work.

Just when the days of teams drafting dead guys seems like a thing of the past, along comes a story like this that really makes you wonder about what some of these decision makers are thinking about. After reading this, I can completely understand how the Tennis Player got hired as OC and managed to keep his job for two years.






MISSISSAUGA, Ont. — A smile crossed Jim Barker’s face when he was asked how George Dyer became the Toronto Argonauts defensive line coach.
“You don’t really want to know that story do you?” Barker jokingly told reporters before delving into what he calls “one of the more bizarre stories ever.”
Shortly after taking over as Toronto’s head coach in the winter of 2010, Barker was looking to hire a staff. He and defensive co-ordinator Chip Garber discussed who should be defensive line coach. They agreed on a candidate on a Saturday night. The job offer was to be extended on Sunday.

But before Barker’s head hit the pillow that evening, he received a call from an old neighbour in Las Vegas. The neighbour had run into Dyer, who was playing the slots at a casino.
“I said, ‘If that’s the George Dyer who was with Chuck Knox and the Seahawks and the [Los Angeles] Rams, tell him: If he’ll come up … and spend six months a year up here, tell him he’s got a job,” said Barker, who coached at the University of Nevada in 1988.
Dyer, now 71, had been out of football since being replaced as the Detroit Lions defensive line coach following the 2003 season and a regime change there.
“The new co-ordinator in Detroit made changes,” Dyer said. “He made changes, which is part of the game and I understood that, but I didn’t want to go out that way. I wanted to keep working. I still thought I could do it.
“I wanted to get another job. When Jim called I said to myself, ‘God can’t work in much better ways than this.’ ”
Prior to his stint in Detroit, Dyer held jobs with the Denver Broncos, Rams, Seattle Seahawks, Buffalo Bills, Arizona State and Michigan State universities, the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and several other NCAA programs.
Dyer, who won two Super Bowls with head coach Mike Shanahan and the Broncos, quickly helped turn Toronto’s front four into one of league’s top units. Defensive tackle Kevin Huntley was named an all-star for the first time while end Ronald Flemons — Dyer calls him “probably as pure a player as I’ve ever been around” — was Toronto’s top defensive player.
“He genuinely cares about what’s best for you beyond how you play on the field,” Huntley said. “That’s why I respect Coach Dyer. He asks you how your family is doing and how you’re feeling.
“When you’re out here in practice and a guy is tired he’ll say, ‘Take a knee,’ and he’ll say, ‘A general never makes his troops face the sun.’ He always has us face away from the sun whenever we take a knee. It’s little stuff like that that shows us he cares.”
Dyer knows he is considered a player’s coach, but he does not think that prevents him from doing his job effectively.
“People say, ‘Well, that’s a fine a line, you got to stay away from the players a bit,’ but I’ve never stayed away. I believe they have to have more in it than just getting a pay cheque. They need to believe in you and they have to believe you care.”
That is how Dyer has turned what Barker calls “a very eclectic group” into a tight-knit family.
Tackle Claude Wroten, the newest member of the line, arrived late at training camp because he had trouble crossing the border.
“I was behind the learning curve slightly, so I hit the books hard,” said Wroten, who had two sacks during Toronto’s win over Calgary. “Before practice we studied, after practice we studied and now I have the playbook down pat. He didn’t necessarily hold my hand, but he gave me a little leeway to learn the book and I learned it my own way.
“He knows how to handle players differently. He knows you can’t handle everyone the same way.”
Last year, end Ricky Foley, who Dyer describes as a “fireball,” joined the team midway through the season and struggled to fit in.
“At times I wished more responsibility had been put on my shoulders, but looking back now he did what was right,” Foley said. “He told me not to try and save the world on every play because I was getting pretty frustrated when I first got here and not having as much success as I would like.
“There’s probably nothing he hasn’t seen. He’s dealt with all types of personalities and attitudes.”
Dyer is a sounding board not just for his players, but also the staff.
“He understands what is important,” Barker said. “He does this because he loves it. He certainly doesn’t need to do this. He’s a true character and you need to have that kind of guy.
“I’ve never met anybody yet who doesn’t like George Dyer. He’s just one of those people that has a magic personality.
“He’s very much the heart of what we do. He keeps the staff together and does much, much more than just coach the defensive line.”
To say Dyer is enjoying his time in Toronto is an understatement. He does not plan on leaving anytime soon. He got enough golfing and fishing in during the six years between jobs.
“I’ve never been around a group that I’ve been happier being around,” Dyer said. “I’d do anything for them.”





http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/07/06/argos-defensive-line-coach-a-true-character/

[eiben35]

Worried that the Argos have only three defensive coaches. Chris Jones will have his hands full especially after getting rid of Parker, Shell and Eiben. The Argo dee hasn't been good since Stubler was the d-cordinator.

[1argoholic]

So many changes everywhere will make for an interesting season. Too many changes for me to think that this team will be in Grey Cup 100 but I hope we improve as I've said before.

[Area 51]

Worried that the Argos have only three defensive coaches. Chris Jones will have his hands full especially after getting rid of Parker, Shell and Eiben. The Argo dee hasn't been good since Stubler was the d-cordinator.




Quality over quantity.

Argos lost a lot of people who were collecting a paycheque, but were they really contributing anything of value?

[gilthethrill]

Apparently, if your Jim Barker you base your decision on a tip from an old neighbour who ran into a guy at the casino pumping nickles into a slot machine. "Tell him he's got a job." Really? Did Barker even bother to ask the guy if he could spell CFL before hiring him? I have a more extensive screening process when I hire people to do a few hours of yard work.

Area51, I think Milanovich hired the coaching staff, not Jim Barker.

[OV Argo]

Worried that the Argos have only three defensive coaches. Chris Jones will have his hands full especially after getting rid of Parker, Shell and Eiben. The Argo dee hasn't been good since Stubler was the d-cordinator.


If they're smart - they consult with O'Shea on some defensive goings on - the guy has just a bit of experience in Canadian football and was a half decent defensive player.

[argotom]

We certainly do not wat to be critical at this stage and especially for a new regime, I agree there are not enough coaches, only 7, and Scott should not be taking over any other high profile task and should concentrate only on head coaching duties.

[ArgoRavi]

Good question...and further to that, I wonder how some of these hiring decisions are made.

Apparently, if your Jim Barker you base your decision on a tip from an old neighbour who ran into a guy at the casino pumping nickles into a slot machine. "Tell him he's got a job." Really? Did Barker even bother to ask the guy if he could spell CFL before hiring him? I have a more extensive screening process when I hire people to do a few hours of yard work.

Just when the days of teams drafting dead guys seems like a thing of the past, along comes a story like this that really makes you wonder about what some of these decision makers are thinking about. After reading this, I can completely understand how the Tennis Player got hired as OC and managed to keep his job for two years.





http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/07/06/argos-defensive-line-coach-a-true-character/

So under Dyer, the defensive line had a great year in 2010 followed by a subpar one in 2011. Does that make Dyer a great coach, a lousy coach or something in between?

[gilthethrill]

So under Dyer, the defensive line had a great year in 2010 followed by a subpar one in 2011. Does that make Dyer a great coach, a lousy coach or something in between?

It has been mentioned more than once that when Barker took over in March of 2010, he did not have much time to put together a staff that had CFL experience. I think the d-line really missed Eric Taylor. That unit also played well down the stretch in 2010 when Belli returned from that foot injury.

[Area 51]

Apparently, if your Jim Barker you base your decision on a tip from an old neighbour who ran into a guy at the casino pumping nickles into a slot machine. "Tell him he's got a job." Really? Did Barker even bother to ask the guy if he could spell CFL before hiring him? I have a more extensive screening process when I hire people to do a few hours of yard work.

Area51, I think Milanovich hired the coaching staff, not Jim Barker.



Yes, I really hope it was Milanovich doing the interviewing/hiring. We've seen the pitiful results of a coaching staff put together by Barker, as well as some insight into his selection process.

The article quoted was written last year and it explained how George Dyer was hired - - by Barker.




So under Dyer, the defensive line had a great year in 2010 followed by a subpar one in 2011. Does that make Dyer a great coach, a lousy coach or something in between?



I'd hardly call the 2010 performance a "great one" for the DLine. They could never generate any kind of constant pressure up front. In 2010 Toronto allowed the most passing attempts by opposiung QB - - do teams usually focus on the passing game if their QB is under heavy duress from the front four? It sure wasn't because Toronto was putting a ton of points on teh board in 2010. I think it would be reasonable to say teams were dropping back to pass because they had no fear of the Toronto pass rush in 2010 - - and having the second lowest sack total in the league supports that theory.

Somehow Huntley was named an all star in 2010 -- which doesn't mean much since he was named an all star again in 2011, and you can't tell me he was anything but terrible last year. The only thing it did was cause Barker to overpay Huntley with a bad signing after the 2010 season.





It has been mentioned more than once that when Barker took over in March of 2010, he did not have much time to put together a staff that had CFL experience. I think the d-line really missed Eric Taylor. That unit also played well down the stretch in 2010 when Belli returned from that foot injury.



And I've mentioned more than once, that Barker had a full off season in 2010 to get rid of the Tennis Player and bring in an OC who actually had a clue about how to draw up an offensive play.

As for ET, that's the first thing I said in the off season last year - - sign Taylor and let Huntley leave. ET would have been less money than Huntley and he would have been willing to line up and play like a DT instead of lining up and trying to play like a DE.

Belli always came off as a goofball, but he could always be counted on for giving a full effort plus he was a great teammate. Replaced with Wroten who was mostly invisible on the field and a disruption off it.

[ArgoRavi]

Milanovich explains the lack of an offensive coordinator in the following article: http://www.canada.com/sports/McCorvey+Stone+join+Argonauts+staff/6204784/story.html

[RoRoYoBoat]

Good question...and further to that, I wonder how some of these hiring decisions are made.

Apparently, if your Jim Barker you base your decision on a tip from an old neighbour who ran into a guy at the casino pumping nickles into a slot machine. "Tell him he's got a job." Really? Did Barker even bother to ask the guy if he could spell CFL before hiring him? I have a more extensive screening process when I hire people to do a few hours of yard work.

Just when the days of teams drafting dead guys seems like a thing of the past, along comes a story like this that really makes you wonder about what some of these decision makers are thinking about. After reading this, I can completely understand how the Tennis Player got hired as OC and managed to keep his job for two years.





http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/07/06/argos-defensive-line-coach-a-true-character/


That's not very fair. When Barker took the job, nobody but I mean nobody wanted it. He did not have much time to put together a staff so Dyer's hiring makes sense. He took chances and from those chances O'Shea has become the #1 rated ST coordinator in the league. Dyer made a solid contribution as a position coach.

It takes time to build a football program. Barker made plenty of mistakes but he's done a lot of good moves too. I think they are still a year or two away if their scouting pans out but they will be an improved team this year. The Ray trade is a huge accomplishment and only happened because of Barker's perseverance.


Milanovich explains the lack of an offensive coordinator in the following article: http://www.canada.com/sports/McCorvey+Stone+join+Argonauts+staff/6204784/story.html

That was his vaunted backup plan ! Not much experience on the offense side of the ball, his new hires have a couple years of HS and one year in a small college as coaching experience and Maas has very little as well. So with the exception of McAdoo there isn't anyone who's occupied their job at that level before. Not much experience on that staff.

[gilthethrill]

And I've mentioned more than once, that Barker had a full off season in 2010 to get rid of the Tennis Player and bring in an OC who actually had a clue about how to draw up an offensive play.

As for ET, that's the first thing I said in the off season last year - - sign Taylor and let Huntley leave. ET would have been less money than Huntley and he would have been willing to line up and play like a DT instead of lining up and trying to play like a DE.

Belli always came off as a goofball, but he could always be counted on for giving a full effort plus he was a great teammate. Replaced with Wroten who was mostly invisible on the field and a disruption off it.


I can only speculate why Elinzondo (why is he called "Tennis Player" anyway?) was kept on after 2010 is because perhaps Barker, after a 6 game improvement was going for continuity in the coaching staff. I really can't fault him for that. This team has had a revolving door of coaches the past few years. He also expected Jyles to come in help out right away, but that did not happen. Perhaps Barker saw Lemon as the main problem with the offense & not the OC.

Again, that is just my viewpoint....feel free to disagree with me..:)

[AngeloV]

And I've mentioned more than once, that Barker had a full off season in 2010 to get rid of the Tennis Player and bring in an OC who actually had a clue about how to draw up an offensive play.

As for ET, that's the first thing I said in the off season last year - - sign Taylor and let Huntley leave. ET would have been less money than Huntley and he would have been willing to line up and play like a DT instead of lining up and trying to play like a DE.

Belli always came off as a goofball, but he could always be counted on for giving a full effort plus he was a great teammate. Replaced with Wroten who was mostly invisible on the field and a disruption off it.


I can only speculate why Elinzondo (why is he called "Tennis Player" anyway?) was kept on after 2010 is because perhaps Barker, after a 6 game improvement was going for continuity in the coaching staff. I really can't fault him for that. This team has had a revolving door of coaches the past few years. He also expected Jyles to come in help out right away, but that did not happen. Perhaps Barker saw Lemon as the main problem with the offense & not the OC.

Again, that is just my viewpoint....feel free to disagree with me..:)

gill, as usual a very well thought out synopsis on your part. It is very difficult to fire any coaches after the team goes from a 3-15 to a 9-9 record. Should the move have been made after a 2-6 start? I say yes. When Garber was fired so should have been Elizondo. Lemon was a scapegoat IMO, because he definitely ran the offence the best of the 3 QB's on the team. Lemon may not be what you strive for as a CFL QB, but he was the best this team had the last 2 years.

I believe the "tennis player" name came after some of us really took offence to what others on here were calling him. I believe "El Dildo" being the worst of the bunch. So someone (I beliee it may have been Area 51) came up with the "Tennis player" so as not to offend anyone.

[KCargosfan]

We've seen the pitiful results of a coaching staff put together by Barker,

Half of which was taking a 3-15 team, going 9-9 and reaching the East final.



Somehow Huntley was named an all star in 2010 -- which doesn't mean much since he was named an all star again in 2011, and you can't tell me he was anything but terrible last year. The only thing it did was cause Barker to overpay Huntley with a bad signing after the 2010 season.

As for ET, that's the first thing I said in the off season last year - - sign Taylor and let Huntley leave. ET would have been less money than Huntley and he would have been willing to line up and play like a DT instead of lining up and trying to play like a DE.

Belli always came off as a goofball, but he could always be counted on for giving a full effort plus he was a great teammate. Replaced with Wroten who was mostly invisible on the field and a disruption off it.

Evidence that Wroten was a disruption off the field?

I thought Huntley had a great 2010, fourth in the league with 9 sacks. There was no reason not to re-sign him at that point. He did have a very unimpressive 2011.

[Will]

Evidence that Wroten was a disruption off the field?

I thought Huntley had a great 2010, fourth in the league with 9 sacks. There was no reason not to re-sign him at that point. He did have a very unimpressive 2011.

I feel that hindsight is 20/20 in this case. I wasn't happy about losing Eric Taylor, but wasn't willing to part with Huntley at the time either.

[R.J]

Jordan Younger "himself" came on this forum and stated that the team missed Belli and how he made it easier for the Argos Dline. IMO Taylor did the same thing and it always made Huntley look better, I say can both Huntley (IMO the Argos most overrated player) and Wroten should be outright released I've seen enough, and let Flemons at least come to camp and prove he deserves a shot, if he screws the pooch then to bad so sad for him and cut him. We'll never know what NI talent we have at the Dline unless their given a fair shot, not to mention that those free agent camps should also bring in some talent.

[ArgoRavi]

Jordan Younger "himself" came on this forum and stated that the team missed Belli and how he made it easier for the Argos Dline. IMO Taylor did the same thing and it always made Huntley look better, I say can both Huntley (IMO the Argos most overrated player) and Wroten should be outright released I've seen enough, and let Flemons at least come to camp and prove he deserves a shot, if he screws the pooch then to bad so sad for him and cut him. We'll never know what NI talent we have at the Dline unless their given a fair shot, not to mention that those free agent camps should also bring in some talent.

IMO, all three of Flemons, Huntley and Wroten should be brought back to camp but pushed hard for jobs. I believe that Wroten may not have been in CFL game shape last year. He missed almost all of training camp which couldn't have helped in that regard either. If he comes to camp in shape this year, perhaps he can still be the dominant force that so many expected of him last year. Flemons and Huntley were both very good in 2010 IMO and I would like to see if they can recapture their form of that season. However, if there are better players in training camp than any or all of these guys, then by all means cuts should be made.


Evidence that Wroten was a disruption off the field?

I too have seen or heard no evidence of this. Maybe Area 51 has some inside information as he has been the only one talking about this.

[Area 51]

I can only speculate why Elinzondo (why is he called "Tennis Player" anyway?) was kept on after 2010 is because perhaps Barker, after a 6 game improvement was going for continuity in the coaching staff. I really can't fault him for that. This team has had a revolving door of coaches the past few years. He also expected Jyles to come in help out right away, but that did not happen. Perhaps Barker saw Lemon as the main problem with the offense & not the OC.



I glossed him as the Tennis Player last year. But it had nothing to do with trying to be politically correct and not offend anyone. Take a look at his bio - - he lettered for three years at the University of Maryland. Very impressive. Same alma mater as Milanovich. Just one minor difference - - one was a mamber of the football team and one was a member of the tennis team. How do you go from playing tennis to being OC of a pro football team? Did the fact that he was a minority have anything to do with it? It's widely documented that the Tennis Player was hired by New Orleans as an assistant WR coach under the NFL's Minority Internship hiring program. Have to wonder if he was actually the most qualified for the job or if he was just there to fill out a minority quota.

In 2010 the offence was so terrible that Barker finally had to take over for the Tennis Player as OC midway through the season. I can sorta buy the excuse Barker didn't have enough time to properly hire a competent set of coordinators before the 2010 season, but there's no excuse why he brought them all back again in 2011 even though it was obvious that many were completely unqualified and over their heads. Barker had no confidence in the Tennis Player calling plays in 2010 - - what did he think would be different six months later?




Evidence that Wroten was a disruption off the field?



This is the kind of thing that gets swept under the rug. Obviously, or the media would have a field day with it. I don't rely on just the newspaper or internet for information.

[ArgoGabe22]

This is the kind of thing that gets swept under the rug. Obviously, or the media would have a field day with it. I don't rely on just the newspaper or internet for information.

Geez my guess is Area 51's job is to dish out parking tickets and he probably heads over to UTM to see if Wroten's illegally parked.

[AngeloV]

JIMO Taylor did the same thing and it always made Huntley look better, I say can both Huntley (IMO the Argos most overrated player)

Huntley had 9 sacks in 2009. Taylor wasn't here until 2010. Huntley is not overrated. He had issues with injuries last year and still was 11th in the league in sacks, and 2nd among DT's to Aaron Hunt. IMO, he should be brought back.


Geez my guess is Area 51's job is to dish out parking tickets and he probably heads over to UTM to see if Wroten's illegally parked.

If it's true, he must have mistaken my car for Wroten's as I received 2 parking tickets there last year.:(

[KCargosfan]

This is the kind of thing that gets swept under the rug. Obviously, or the media would have a field day with it. I don't rely on just the newspaper or internet for information.

How is this any different than me coming on here and saying Edmonton traded Ricky Ray to us because they were tired of his drinking too many Pepsis each day?

[R.J]

IMO, all three of Flemons, Huntley and Wroten should be brought back to camp but pushed hard for jobs. I believe that Wroten may not have been in CFL game shape last year. He missed almost all of training camp which couldn't have helped in that regard either. If he comes to camp in shape this year, perhaps he can still be the dominant force that so many expected of him last year. Flemons and Huntley were both very good in 2010 IMO and I would like to see if they can recapture their form of that season. However, if there are better players in training camp than any or all of these guys, then by all means cuts should be made.

Huntley had 9 sacks in 2009. Taylor wasn't here until 2010. Huntley is not overrated. He had issues with injuries last year and still was 11th in the league in sacks, and 2nd among DT's to Aaron Hunt. IMO, he should be brought back.You guys have your opinions and I have mine. Taylor wasn't on the team until 2010, but Belli was there in 09 and 2010, his injuries are what lead to Taylor starting.

[paulwoods13]

This is the kind of thing that gets swept under the rug. Obviously, or the media would have a field day with it. I don't rely on just the newspaper or internet for information.

OK, so what do you rely on for your information?

It's easy to go on an online forum under the cloak of anonymity and make unsourced allegations, without any evidence, about players' off-field conduct. it's also easy to "justify" making such allegations by saying the behaviour was "swept under the rug" to keep it out of the media -- very sinister sounding. Unlike posters here, the media (or at least the MSM that so many people love to criticize) have basic standards underlying the reporting of information. Can it be verified? Have the individuals alleged to have done wrong been allowed the opportunity to comment or explain? Is release of the info in the public interest? etc. Do you hold yourself to those standards in making allegations about the off-field conduct of Wroten or anyone else?

[Area 51]

It's easy to go on an online forum under the cloak of anonymity and make unsourced allegations, without any evidence, about players' off-field conduct. it's also easy to "justify" making such allegations by saying the behaviour was "swept under the rug" to keep it out of the media -- very sinister sounding.



Much like the issue of the female therapist who sued the Argos for wrongful dismissal. The incident happens during 2010 training camp....she gets fired at the end of 2010...lawsuit gets settled a year later in 2011....media finally gets around to reporting it almost a year after that in early 2012. Would you say that little incident was "swept under the rug" when it happened?


If somebody had alluded to this a year or two ago, either here in this forum or in the media, it would have been shouted down immediately. What's the evidence? Who's your source? Where's the proof?





Unlike posters here, the media (or at least the MSM that so many people love to criticize) have basic standards underlying the reporting of information. Can it be verified? Have the individuals alleged to have done wrong been allowed the opportunity to comment or explain? Is release of the info in the public interest? etc. Do you hold yourself to those standards in making allegations about the off-field conduct of Wroten or anyone else?



What are the "basic standards" you're referring to? Does every reporter fully cite his source of information? No - - because they wouldn't have that source any more if they did. Don't get it confused with the book report you did in grade school that had footnotes and bibliography. Ever hear people speak off the record about something? I don't see what purpose it would serve to give those in question the opportunity to comment or explain.


If someone had asked a direct question of Barker & Nicholson a year ago about the fired therapist, what do you suppose their reaction would have been? Probably the same as Rafael Palmero and Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds and Marion Jones and Linford Christie when they were first given the opportunity to comment and explain...complete denial.


How about giving Barker & Nicholson the opportunity to comment and explain after the media exposed the lawsuit? Both declined comment. Maybe they were sworn to secrecy by the settlement agreement, right?


The really interesting part was Nicholson resigning to "pursue other interests" less than two weeks after the story hit the media. Think there might be a coincidence there? Come on man, connect the dots.

[R.J]

How do you know he's BS'ing pw13 ?
Fact is none of us know each other or where some might get information. As an example I know for a fact that both Cory Boyd's and Huntley's injuries in 2010 were far worse then what the media and fans were told, and only reason I've never brought it up or my source is because I might get banned. But does that mean I'm BS'ing too ?

[ArgoRavi]

How do you know he's BS'ing pw13 ?
Fact is none of us know each other or where some might get information. As an example I know for a fact that both Cory Boyd's and Huntley's injuries in 2010 were far worse then what the media and fans were told, and only reason I've never brought it up or my source is because I might get banned. But does that mean I'm BS'ing too ?

The problem is that we don't know if he is telling the truth either.

[R.J]

The problem is that we don't know if he is telling the truth either.I get that Ravi, I suppose it's better to say nothing sometimes, even if its the truth or not. Even for myself I can't reveal a lot of the sources and I have to I try to avoid certain subjects. At the same time though he could be right, and we just don't get it yet.

[paulwoods13]

Much like the issue of the female therapist who sued the Argos for wrongful dismissal. The incident happens during 2010 training camp....she gets fired at the end of 2010...lawsuit gets settled a year later in 2011....media finally gets around to reporting it almost a year after that in early 2012. Would you say that little incident was "swept under the rug" when it happened?


If somebody had alluded to this a year or two ago, either here in this forum or in the media, it would have been shouted down immediately. What's the evidence? Who's your source? Where's the proof?




What are the "basic standards" you're referring to? Does every reporter fully cite his source of information? No - - because they wouldn't have that source any more if they did. Don't get it confused with the book report you did in grade school that had footnotes and bibliography. Ever hear people speak off the record about something? I don't see what purpose it would serve to give those in question the opportunity to comment or explain.


If someone had asked a direct question of Barker & Nicholson a year ago about the fired therapist, what do you suppose their reaction would have been? Probably the same as Rafael Palmero and Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds and Marion Jones and Linford Christie when they were first given the opportunity to comment and explain...complete denial.


How about giving Barker & Nicholson the opportunity to comment and explain after the media exposed the lawsuit? Both declined comment. Maybe they were sworn to secrecy by the settlement agreement, right?


The really interesting part was Nicholson resigning to "pursue other interests" less than two weeks after the story hit the media. Think there might be a coincidence there? Come on man, connect the dots.


This is a very clever way of deflecting attention from the fact that you have made an accusation of personal misconduct for which you are apparently not prepared to provide any evidence. So we either accept your word or we don't. I don't, because unlike the news media you accuse of being in on the conspiracy, you don't have a track record of providing credibly sourced information. Your opinions are certainly interesting, but it ain't journalism.

[KCargosfan]

The problem is that we don't know if he is telling the truth either.

Bingo.

Btw -- I flew up to Toronto last year and Wroten and I went on a bar-hopping binger that would put those on the MTV Real World to shame. Dude can party.

[1argoholic]

Barker made it sound like Wroten, Flemons and Huntley will all be wth us in 2012. He better bring in some guys to push them in camp. Hopefully push their asses out the door. I wasn't happy with them last year.

[Area 51]

This is a very clever way of deflecting attention from the fact that you have made an accusation of personal misconduct for which you are apparently not prepared to provide any evidence. So we either accept your word or we don't. I don't, because unlike the news media you accuse of being in on the conspiracy, you don't have a track record of providing credibly sourced information. Your opinions are certainly interesting, but it ain't journalism.



That's exactly right. Short of video footage or snapshots, there's absolutely no evidence that I could provide that might sway your opinion. Naming sources of information would be completely useless too - - if I said "Hey, 'XXXX' told me...." you'd likely say there's no possible way 'XXXX' could have spoken to me, because there's no way that I would know 'XXXX'.

So let's just sit back and see what happens first - - Wroten gets nominated for the Tom Pate award or Wroten gets busted as he did at LSU and St Louis.

[Will]

It's a bit of a funny pickle--you can't reveal the source without compromising your relationship with that person, but without revealing your source your information is going to be scrutinized.

[R.J]

Barker made it sound like Wroten, Flemons and Huntley will all be wth us in 2012. He better bring in some guys to push them in camp. Hopefully push their asses out the door. I wasn't happy with them last year.I wasn't either, was never impressed with Huntley at anytime but already discussed that topic. I doubt Barker brings in anyone though, he'll probably just expect what he has already to get their spots, unless of course some of the NI talent can take over. I've been questioning Barker as a part of the Argos organization since he brought Lemon in and I doubt that will stop.

[Will]

I wasn't either, was never impressed with Huntley at anytime but already discussed that topic. I doubt Barker brings in anyone though, he'll probably just expect what he has already to get their spots, unless of course some of the NI talent can take over. I've been questioning Barker as a part of the Argos organization since he brought Lemon in and I doubt that will stop.

Our new DC should (in theory) have input in this matter. If you've been questioning Barker as a part of the Argos organization since he brought Lemon in, then you've essentially been questioning him since he rejoined the team in 2010.

[Area 51]

It's a bit of a funny pickle--you can't reveal the source without compromising your relationship with that person, but without revealing your source your information is going to be scrutinized.



And again I'll say that it would not have mattered at all if I'd said "Joe Blow is my source of information who told me..." Because then the question would be "prove to me that Joe Blow is your source".

[KCargosfan]

And again I'll say that it would not have mattered at all if I'd said "Joe Blow is my source of information who told me..." Because then the question would be "prove to me that Joe Blow is your source".

So everything you say that is unsubstantiated we are supposed to take as gold? Hell, if it's such a good story, call a reporter at one of the 27 Toronto or Hamilton newspapers and have them go after it.

[Area 51]

So everything you say that is unsubstantiated we are supposed to take as gold?



Now you're being obtuse. Usually signifies surrender in any kind of discussion/debate/arguement.





Hell, if it's such a good story, call a reporter at one of the 27 Toronto or Hamilton newspapers and have them go after it.



It sure wouldn't be a reporter I'd call - - that's just another "unsubstantiated opinion" that could be questioned.

[KCargosfan]

Now you're being obtuse. Usually signifies surrender in any kind of discussion/debate/arguement.




It sure wouldn't be a reporter I'd call - - that's just another "unsubstantiated opinion" that could be questioned.


I'm not sure what there is to surrender on? Maybe I'm too obtuse.

If there was a legitimate story done on it it wouldn't be unsubstantiated.

[R.J]

What usually signifies surrender in a discussion/debate is when one brings out insults. Congrats.

If there was a legitimate story done on it it wouldn't be unsubstantiated.Only one problem with that, the Argos control a lot of what goes out to the media, the Cleo Lemon situation is an example of that. Also say for instance I go to the media to explain the actual injuries Boyd and Huntley sustained, the reporters would go to the Argos to verify, which would most likely be denied and my sources could be put to the fire, which I doubt those people would want.


Our new DC should (in theory) have input in this matter. If you've been questioning Barker as a part of the Argos organization since he brought Lemon in, then you've essentially been questioning him since he rejoined the team in 2010.If Huntley, Wroten and Flem are given the jobs, I'll lose complete faith in Jones in less then 2 seconds and TBH it'll probably be the last year for me as a season ticket holder (moving 2 hours away in a couple months adds to that though). Yes, I have been questioning Barker since he joined, I liked how he tried to bring accountability at first but that's it, and even that didn't last long as evident in the 2011 season. IMO once Barker stated that he saw Henry Burris in Lemon, it was over for me, I had stated multiple times that 2010 was all smoke and mirrors and even stated that if the offense didn't turn around in 2011 the team wouldn't win more than 6 games. As excited as I am about this season and some of the moves, I'm not completely sold either, Milanovich is a first time HC and has a lot of inexperience in that position and even in his offensive coaches. Jones was added as DC, but I'm not overly comfortable with Steinuer sticking around, and the team still has too many week spots, I don't even think the team has the players to play Jones' aggressive style. Even though paper doesn't mean much, I still don't think you can compare the Argos to MTL, BC, Hamilton, Calgary and even Winnipeg, just my opinion though.

[Area 51]

If there was a legitimate story done on it it wouldn't be unsubstantiated.



So did you miss this story, or was it not "legitimate" enough for your liking?


..." several players would later confide that the leash they were under became longer this past season when certain players were able to get away with indiscretions that were not tolerated in 2010. Obviously, this can’t be judged until training camp opens and when games get played, but insights will be gleaned by watching who gets signed and who gets released. A guy like Claude Wroten, who made an impact early in his CFL debut, is one player worth watching as the off-season unfolds."

Notice how the writer mentions "several players" as his sources for this information...should we dismiss this as unsubstantiated fodder since the writer doesn't identify each of the players by name? What do you think KC?

What kind of "indiscretions" might he be referring to...maybe somebody butted in the line for milk and cookies?

Really strange how the writer would specifically reference Claude Wroten in the same breath as he talks about the "indiscretions". Any ideas as to why the suggestion that Wroten was someone to watch in the off season?







TORONTO - Scott Milanovich’s to-do list in the wake of his appointment as Argos head coach:

1. It’s as obvious as what ails the Argos, an area that doomed Jim Barker from the beginning of his second go-round as Boatmen boss. Assistant coaches. When Barker got hired two years ago late in the off-season process, he went with inexperience and discovered a gem when he made Mike O’Shea special teams co-ordinator. Now that Milanovich is officially on the job, he’ll surround himself with experience and familiarity, which always happens when timing does not become an issue, which it did with Barker.
Whether you like the smell of Chris Jones’ departure from Calgary, there’s no better man for an aggressive defence than Jones, whose system needs cover corners and halfbacks who’ll make plays in man coverage. Poaching is somehow perceived as bad, but it’s the way the game gets played, the only way a competent staff gets picked. Marcus Brady will get promoted to offensive co-ordinator and so much of Orlondo Steinauer’s fate will be based on whether O’Shea becomes a head coach, either with Saskatchewan or Hamilton.

2. Hopefully Milanovich, when he’s done reviewing film on the Argos, will realize there are no receivers worthy of go-to status. Hopefully Milanovich turns to Barker and tells him to bring in receivers who can make plays in the air, when a ball gets caught and yards are needed. If the Argos truly are committed to being Grey Cup contenders, then Jeremaine Copeland must be released and Chad Owens must see the field on offence in formations that get him the ball in space. Andre Durie, while evolving, should be a third option. Maurice Mann, who was acquired from the Ticats in a trade for Dee Webb, will make the occasional play, but he’s not a go-to guy. The trade option is the only way the Argos will address this need given how pathetic the franchise has been in actually identifying a receiver and developing him.

3. Cory Boyd will either be traded or be used as a legitimate featured back, which means he has to get a minimum of 20 touches a game, whether it’s as a running back or as a receiving threat. The Argos were simply incompetent in their use of Boyd, who wears his emotions on his sleeve and who clearly needs to be told he’s the guy by getting him the rock. We’ll see how serious Milanovich is when he said during his introductory news conference that he’s open to any ideas. Boyd can run routes and he’s pretty good as a receiver, but the Argos never utilized this weapon last season when Boyd missed a handful of games, giving Chad Kackert playing time. Boyd is both a force and an asset Argos must consider when reshaping their offence. If Milanovich deems it’s best to go with a Durie/Kackert backfield combo, then perhaps Boyd may fetch that long-awaited deep threat who can actually hold on to the football.

4. Changing a culture doesn’t happen overnight, but it is possible and achievable. Barker was successful in his first year, but several players would later confide that the leash they were under became longer this past season when certain players were able to get away with indiscretions that were not tolerated in 2010. Obviously, this can’t be judged until training camp opens and when games get played, but insights will be gleaned by watching who gets signed and who gets released. A guy like Claude Wroten, who made an impact early in his CFL debut, is one player worth watching as the off-season unfolds. There was a lot of turmoil along the line of scrimmage for the Argos, who basically were dependent on their defence to keep them competitive. It’s no secret players had agendas that led to break downs in communication.

5. Anything is possible when a new coaching regime take over, including the guy who ultimately lines up under centre. It made no sense for Milanovich to engage in any speculation and he stayed clear of any potential problem whenever the issue of quarterback was raised. Anyone with half a brain can see that Steven Jyles is a run-first quarterback who has problems going through his progression. He makes all the throws, but playing quarterback is more than making throws. Milanovich knows that more than anyone and he has to find the guy to run Toronto’s new offensive system. It may turn out to be Jyles, but there’s plenty of work that awaits for a quarterback who appears best served as a change of pace pivot because of Jyles’ ability to make plays with his feet. If there’s one position Milanovich is most comfortable coaching, it’s at quarterback. In Montreal, Anthony Calvillo was the perfect guy for the CFL’s version of a west coast offence. Once Milanovich figures out what system to run, he’ll have a better handle on how Jyles or whomever fits.



http://www.torontosun.com/2011/12/02/five-challenges-for-argos-milanovich




I'm not overly comfortable with Steinuer sticking around.




Me neither. My sense last year was that because the rest of the defensive coaches were so clueless and just trying to cling to their jobs, Steinauer was able to seize the opportunity for advancement and jump into the role of DC - - albeit with the "interm" tag attached.

Now with someone on board who finally understands how to run a CFL defence, I'd expect Steinauer to quietly slither back to the secondary. My guess is that Jones won't be baffled by bullsh!t and will see through the flimsy facades from last year.

[paulwoods13]

So did you miss this story, or was it not "legitimate" enough for your liking? . . .

[/B][/I]Notice how the writer mentions "several players" as his sources for this information...should we dismiss this as unsubstantiated fodder since the writer doesn't identify each of the players by name? What do you think KC?

What kind of "indiscretions" might he be referring to...maybe somebody butted in the line for milk and cookies?

Really strange how the writer would specifically reference Claude Wroten in the same breath as he talks about the "indiscretions". Any ideas as to why the suggestion that Wroten was someone to watch in the off season?




You first said the media sweep this sort of thing under the rug, and that you don't rely on just the newspaper or internet for information. Now you're citing a newspaper/internet report (which doesn't attribute the information and obviously was an opinion piece, not reporting, per se, FWIW) as proof of your original statement that Wroten was a disruption off the field. Are we to infer that you also have inside information about this, but the only source you can cite here without violating confidentiality is the Sun story?

[Area 51]

You first said the media sweep this sort of thing under the rug,



And I still maintain this. Whether it's the media looking the other way or the team suppressing the information, embarassing/damaging stories like the wrongful dismissal of the therapist don't usually end up in the media until long after they've happened.





and that you don't rely on just the newspaper or internet for information.



That's correct. Aside from what the newspaper/internet happens to report, I also rely on what I see and hear.




Now you're citing a newspaper/internet report (which doesn't attribute the information and obviously was an opinion piece, not reporting, per se, FWIW) as proof of your original statement that Wroten was a disruption off the field.



I cited the article in response to the poster who seems to believe that unless something was mentioned in the newspaper it couldn't possibly have any sort of legitimacy.




Are we to infer that you also have inside information about this, but the only source you can cite here without violating confidentiality is the Sun story?



I have no idea who or where Zicarelli gets his information from. Could be the same sources, could be different sources.

So what do you suppose the "indiscretions" might have been that the write was referencing - - maybe some players were being potty mouth on the sidelines during games? And isn't it curious that he would mention Wroten as the player to watch during the off season? Any thoughts on that?

[bluto]

One of the biggest difficulties on sports forums such as this is that sometimes information can be filtered out to certain In The Know posters who then may choose to share (or not to share) their information with their fellow posters.

This also leads to a rise in bogus ITKs who either are attention seekers or have a bad source and share the bad info thinking it's the McCoy.

People who post that which they claim is ITK information have to be prepared for fellow posters to question the information's (and even the poster's) veracity. As we know, we have players, coaches and front office types who check in with our forum so you should also remember that the spirit of our COC is that you shouldn't post anything here that you wouldn't be willing to say to someone IRL... and that too much effort towards keeping discourse civil cannot be observed.

51's post drew flak because it is implying something negative that seems like he is taking an unfair shot at a player. In such an instance it were better that he didn't post any supposed knowledge of "indiscretions". Or he could have just said that he has been told by someone that Wroten isn't a boy scout and let us draw whatever conclusion from that we wanted.

Many of us have known each other through the CFL online community or through Argo games and events for years and thus it's easier to gauge whether or not to take ITK info at face value... i expect that as ArgoFans.com re-develops itself and matures as a forum that less of these misunderstandings would occurr (or so we'd hope).

and as for having Wroten, Huntley and Flemmons back to camp, why on earth wouldn't we bring them to camp? They are professionals trying to earn their jersey for the season and each could become a key member of Jones' defence if they are healthy and fulfill their potential.

a healthy Huntley is a terror. he's been a good soldier playing with a hurt shoulder in games that (in hindsight) were meaningless so why wouldn't we want him to try again?

whatever we think of Wroten as a person (i for one can't comment here nor i suspect could most of us) it's undeniable that he flashed sporadic brilliance in his play. having him come to a training camp to play into shape and perhaps if he did need an additional year's maturity he would have that too... who wouldn't want him to try?

we know what a stalwart Flemmons has been for us. and a nicer guy you couldn't find. he's done nothing other than what he's been asked to and as well has played hurt for us on many occasions (and is only 1 year removed from being our defensive player of the season).

i doubt any of them think that somebody is just going to hand them the shirt.

i'm sure that all are aware that they have a new DC who has asst-GM powers and has 10+ free agent camps full of players that he has looked at this offseason who are dying for a shot to get paid to play football.

so tell me again how it's bad to bring quality players to camp for evaluation?

[paulwoods13]

So what do you suppose the "indiscretions" might have been that the write was referencing - - maybe some players were being potty mouth on the sidelines during games? And isn't it curious that he would mention Wroten as the player to watch during the off season? Any thoughts on that?

My thoughts are that it's irresponsible for a journalist to imply that someone engaged in wrongdoing without providing any credible evidence or at least something about the source of the information so that readers can judge its validity. And reporting or implying wrongdoing without giving the accused party a chance to respond is a violation of basic journalistic ethics. So hanging the belief that Wroten committed "indiscretions" on Ziccarelli's "to-do list" is a real reach, IMO.

[Area 51]

we know what a stalwart Flemmons has been for us. and a nicer guy you couldn't find. he's done nothing other than what he's been asked to and as well has played hurt for us on many occasions (and is only 1 year removed from being our defensive player of the season).

i doubt any of them think that somebody is just going to hand them the shirt.




Don't put too much stock into Flemons being the defensive player of the year two seasons ago. Remember who last year's defensive player of the year was for the Argos.

As far as being "handed the shirt", that's exactly what Toronto did with Wroten last year. Shows up late for camp, and after he's had two practices the team cuts Robede and makes Wroten the starting DT. Not sure how much easier the Argos could have made it for Wroten to "win" the starting job. Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

What kind of message does that send when you bring in an import FA and almost immediately name him the starter? Especially one with the baggage Wroten has - - and by that I mean the multiple failed drug tests at the NCAA and the NFL. Let me know if anyone needs documented evidence of those, or if we can just have them admitted as fact.

[paulwoods13]

As far as being "handed the shirt", that's exactly what Toronto did with Wroten last year. Shows up late for camp, and after he's had two practices the team cuts Robede and makes Wroten the starting DT. Not sure how much easier the Argos could have made it for Wroten to "win" the starting job. Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

Believe it or not, I actually agree with you on this point. I doubt Robede was worth keeping, but I wouldn't have minded seeing how Bradwell would have played at DT -- thought he looked pretty good in the preseason game at home.

[R.J]

Now you're citing a newspaper/internet report (which doesn't attribute the information and obviously was an opinion piece, not reporting, per se, FWIW) as proof of your original statement that Wroten was a disruption off the field. Are we to infer that you also have inside information about this, but the only source you can cite here without violating confidentiality is the Sun story?
Time out, even though I'll probably get banned for saying this it needs to be said. So because a columnist cannot name his sources automatically means that it is not credible reporting ? Or that because Area 51 cannot name his sources that he's a liar ? Was it not you, who brought up previously that you had spoken to a player that stated the team had leadership/locker room issues, but couldn't divulge who for the players sake ? I have never seen you name your sources, yet you never seem to believe anyone. Drew Edwards of the scratchingpost/spectator also took some heat for writing about a players opinion who requested anonymity, and took heat for it, because he could not name the player, even blogged afterwards to the fans that sometimes he can't name sources, because the players trust him and he has a job to do. The same thing happened in Winnipeg when a player stated after the Grey Cup to a reporter that the team lost because the players let buck down and the play calling was too conservative, it was only until buck started calling his own plays that the ball got moving. Again that article and writer took heat for it, fact is these columnist and reporters know a lot more about the goings on in the business then they can divulge to the fanbase. Even some fans know some information that is not privy to the rest of the fan base, for instance Huntley needed both shoulder and knee surgeries after the 2010 season. Cory Boyd IMO should not have played in the 2010 Eastern Final as he completely tore off his groin muscle two games earlier (I respect him for the toughness he had in playing, but he shouldn't have played with an injury like that). Because Barker had nobody else both these broken players played and played like crap because of it. While I don't believe everything everyone says on this forum, to state people are lying or other wise because they can't name a source or to say a writer isn't writing fact because he can't name a source is ridiculous. Some on here seem to like rail roading others even though they themselves have no proof either.

[ArgoGabe22]

Saying Steinhauer shouldn't be back just baffles me. He took over the D 5 games in and did okay with what he had. Of course someone like Chris Jones is more qualified so moving Stein down to DBs is a still a good move. When he took over the D he said they needed to work on conditioning which they never did under Garber. Not sure if you noticed but our defence always collapses after half time.

[paulwoods13]

Time out, even though I'll probably get banned for saying this it needs to be said. So because a columnist cannot name his sources automatically means that it is not credible reporting ? Or that because Area 51 cannot name his sources that he's a liar ? Was it not you, who brought up previously that you had spoken to a player that stated the team had leadership/locker room issues, but couldn't divulge who for the players sake ? I have never seen you name your sources, yet you never seem to believe anyone. . . . While I don't believe everything everyone says on this forum, to state people are lying or other wise because they can't name a source or to say a writer isn't writing fact because he can't name a source is ridiculous. Some on here seem to like rail roading others even though they themselves have no proof either.

Who said anyone was "lying"? That's your word, and I don't believe there is anything in what I wrote that would support the idea that I suggested anyone was "lying." I asked for some information that would allow me and other posters to make judgments about the credibility of the information that was being presented. Look at it this way -- would you be more inclined to believe a newspaper story that attributes info to "sources" or a story that attributes info to "sources who were in the room when the decision was made"? The first tells you NOTHING about how valid the sources might be. The second at least lets you make a judgment about how valid the sources might be. The reputation of the journalist also factors into such judgments.

As for me never revealing my sources, I believe there is only a single example of me claiming to have inside information from an unidentified source, whom I described as a player I had spoken to. That's different than just saying "so and so did such and such" with no info whatsoever as to where the info came from. And the info I ascribed to a player I had spoken to was considerably less inflammatory than "Wroten was disruptive," IMO.

[Wobbler]

Part of the problem is that this has been going on for some time. Area 51 has implied multiple times that Wroten is a disruptive influence, but has never supported his statements. I know I've asked at least once what he was talking about. Like Paul, I appreciate attribution and references, and it is hard to take an opinion on our D-line's future seriously when it is based on an unsupported accusation.

[Area 51]

Part of the problem is that this has been going on for some time. Area 51 has implied multiple times that Wroten is a disruptive influence, but has never supported his statements. I know I've asked at least once what he was talking about.



Posting of sensitive or potentially defamatory personal information about CFL players and personnel that is not of general knowledge is NOT tolerated.

Obviously whatever I mention would be considered a violation of the forum rules - - and I'm sure I wouldn't have much lattitude from a few of the moderators here. Regardless, short of posting video evidence, there's no means of me "proving" anything said here. So there's no point in further discussion on the subject of Wroten being a disruptive force on the team. Go ahead and pre-order your #98 Wroten jersey. In the meantime, I'll be waiting to see if Milanovich and Jones handle things any differently this year.




When he took over the D he said they needed to work on condition which they never did under Garber. Not sure if you noticed but our defence always collapses after half time.



I noticed the entire team usually struggled in the 3rd Q last year - - both offence and defence. Would be interesting to see the time of posession stats last year for just the 3rd Q. More often than not, Toronto was dominated. Maybe they were exhausted after the 15minute halftime break. Or maybe opposing coaches were competent enough to make halftime adjustments but Toronto's coaches had no clue how to do the same.

[KCargosfan]

So did you miss this story, or was it not "legitimate" enough for your liking?


..." several players would later confide that the leash they were under became longer this past season when certain players were able to get away with indiscretions that were not tolerated in 2010. Obviously, this can’t be judged until training camp opens and when games get played, but insights will be gleaned by watching who gets signed and who gets released. A guy like Claude Wroten, who made an impact early in his CFL debut, is one player worth watching as the off-season unfolds."

Notice how the writer mentions "several players" as his sources for this information...should we dismiss this as unsubstantiated fodder since the writer doesn't identify each of the players by name? What do you think KC?

What kind of "indiscretions" might he be referring to...maybe somebody butted in the line for milk and cookies?

Really strange how the writer would specifically reference Claude Wroten in the same breath as he talks about the "indiscretions". Any ideas as to why the suggestion that Wroten was someone to watch in the off season?




Yep, missed that story, thanks for posting. Any reason you didn't post this earlier? Or why you didn't post it to my initial question?

This is an editorial written by a newspaper columnist who covers the team and obviously has sources, not some blanket statement made by an anonymous person on a message board. Bit of a difference there. The fact I would take his word over yours really shouldn't be a surprise, or an insult.




I cited the article in response to the poster who seems to believe that unless something was mentioned in the newspaper it couldn't possibly have any sort of legitimacy.



Bit of a leap there. More like a response to a poster who doesn't believe accusatory statements from anonymous posters on message boards with no documentation.

[jerrym]

I remember McCorvey as an Edmonton receiver and always liked his style. Although he is short on professional coaching experience, I think that if he has the instructional and motivational skill to develop that in the Argo receiver, he'll be a good coach.

[Area 51]

Yep, missed that story, thanks for posting. Any reason you didn't post this earlier? Or why you didn't post it to my initial question?




I did. There was an earlier thread discussing this article, but it looks like you missed that as well.

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?159-Frank-Zicarelli-Has-Been-Spot-On-So-Far...&highlight=Zicarelli

[1argoholic]

I remember the days when I'd hit practices all the time,road trips,Badali's and previous venues the players would go to. You get to know many of the guys. They do become friends and you do here about stuff that goes on with players and even reporters and the like. There could very well be folks on this board who know dirt for lack of a better word on inner Argo happenings. One big thing I remember waschatting with Pinball during his first year as coach and it was obvious that he really didn't want to be doing it. I also have been in Pinballs home sitting have a juice with him and his wife while talking about doing a potential landscape for him. Then some guy did it for free for him and I wasn't willing to do that. Best thing about the CFL is that you can relate to these guys.

[KCargosfan]

I did. There was an earlier thread discussing this article, but it looks like you missed that as well.

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?159-Frank-Zicarelli-Has-Been-Spot-On-So-Far...&highlight=Zicarelli

I meant earlier in the current thread. I wouldn't call that a thread "discussing" this article since your post was the only one, but I suppose that's semantics.
And I wouldn't say I "missed" it, lol.

And you still didn't post it to my initial response, still not sure why there.

[Area 51]

And you still didn't post it to my initial response, still not sure why there.




Because you asked for evidence....remember?





Evidence that Wroten was a disruption off the field?




I'm not going to start dropping names and I don't have any on-the-record testimony or video footage that I could provide as the "evidence" you're asking for. Neither did Zicarelli's article. Then you suggested I start calling newspapers - - presumably to have some type of investigative report done on Wroten...remember?





Hell, if it's such a good story, call a reporter at one of the 27 Toronto or Hamilton newspapers and have them go after it.




That's when I re-posted Zicarelli's article. Because he more or less said the same things I've been saying for the past six months.

You can continue to believe in Santa Clause if you like. What you choose to reject or believe is up to you. Just don't act dumbfounded when you find out the only thing going up the chimney is smoke.