Preparing for 2016

[Wobbler]

In 2016 we'll be moving into a nice new facility and will be hosting the Grey cup. Obviously it will be important to make a good impression on the field next year and, ideally, participate in the big game (and not as the half-time entertainment).

What personnel changes do we need to make between now and then? Ray should still be performing at an elite level, our other top guys should still be productive, and I think we're making the necessary rejuvenation moves all teams need to make, but is there more to be done?

[ArgoZ]

I think we better focus on 2015 first. While 2016 sure looks exciting, we still have to make it through this year. There is no reason we can't still have fun and enjoy our last year at the dome.

[ArgoGabe22]

There's no guarantee Milanovich, Barker, Ray, Ownes and Durie will even be with the team in 2016. They might go in a totally different direction say another disappointing season.

[R.J]

There's no guarantee Milanovich, Barker, Ray, Ownes and Durie will even be with the team in 2016. They might go in a totally different direction say another disappointing season.
I think if Ray and Durie get injured yet again this season IMO it's time to move on. I've never been completely sold on Milanovich as a head coach, even less thrilled with his offense, so no big loss if he were to move on. Barker and Owens should be the only "untouchables" imo.

For some reason I get the feeling that this could be Himebauch's team next season.

[Wobbler]

There's no guarantee Milanovich, Barker, Ray, Ownes and Durie will even be with the team in 2016. They might go in a totally different direction say another disappointing season.
At this point I see no reason to blow up the team, so I'd focus on locking in our key assets and looking for ways to improve by spending a little money. Offering both Milanovich and Barker new or extended contracts would be a good place to start our preparations for 2016. Extending Ray, Owens and Durie into 2016+ also seems like a no-brainer.

By training camp 2017 a lot of our top current personnel will be well past their primes, and it'll be the perfect time to make major changes.

[Argocister]

To prepare for 2016, we need 2015 to show improvements and success.
We need to see Himebachs Oline .... Develop , improve and ready for the next year as a cohesive unit.
We need to see the Defense improve ... Many of the players are the same and should be able to depend on each other. Creehan and co. May have some ups and downs in the first half of the season.... But just like our 100 th cup season, the last half should be strong and peaking for Nov.
Ray will learn to pass less this year , with the improved Oline ( assumption to the positive) and with health issues minimized this year our offense will also peak in the second half. create interest this year ..... Team and fans ...... We will be ready for the new home.

[Wobbler]

It sounds like one of the important steps is coming soon (http://www.tsn.ca/extensions-imminent-for-argos-barker-milanovich-1.314651).

[Wobbler]

Sounds like it's official.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> announce extension of GM Jim Barker &amp; Head Coach Scott Milanovich. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/OURteam?src=hash">#OURteam</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a> LINK: <a href="http://t.co/lh3r16GLZr">http://t.co/lh3r16GLZr</a> <a href="http://t.co/lGfN15vp9R">pic.twitter.com/lGfN15vp9R</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts (@TorontoArgos) <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/612977473643499520">June 22, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Stevoman]

Great to hear of the extensions!

[AngeloV]

F'N awesome news!!!

[Neely2005]

Glad to hear about the contract extensions.

[Wobbler]

So, 2015 is done as far as we're concerned. I think we accomplished about as much as could be reasonably expected; I'm on record as not regarding this team as a "contender", so it's hard to be terribly disappointed in the outcome.

But I'm really optimistic about 2016. Even disregarding the new arenea we've found some receivers to build around, we have some good options at QB, and we've found some good new position players. There is plenty more work to do personnel-wise - particularly on the OL - before we can make a legitimate Cup run, but it seems well within the realm of possibility. It should be a very interesting off-season.

Does anyone know when Foley's contract is up? I know he extended with Sask right before we acquired him, but I can't find the details.

[ArgoRavi]

So, 2015 is done as far as we're concerned. I think we accomplished about as much as could be reasonably expected; I'm on record as not regarding this team as a "contender", so it's hard to be terribly disappointed in the outcome.

But I'm really optimistic about 2016. Even disregarding the new arenea we've found some receivers to build around, we have some good options at QB, and we've found some good new position players. There is plenty more work to do personnel-wise - particularly on the OL - before we can make a legitimate Cup run, but it seems well within the realm of possibility. It should be a very interesting off-season.

Does anyone know when Foley's contract is up? I know he extended with Sask right before we acquired him, but I can't find the details.

I am almost certain that Foley is a free agent this off-season as are Owens, Ray and Trevor Harris.

[R.J]

I believe Foley is in the last year of his deal, I remember earlier in the season he was asked about heading into BMO next year and he brought up how he was a free agent, so he might not even be a part of it.

Some Changes are clearly needed on this team, I'm going to have to take Owens off my 'untouchables" list, he's not the player he once was and Spencer can easily take over his spot. Barker and Milo aren't going anywhere, not that I'd want Barker to leave in the first place, but new offensive and defensive schemes are needed. I would love to see Benevides come in as the DC, if not him then Claybrooks, but I don't see Claybrooks going anywhere since he's the DC heir apparent in Calgary, Dickenson may not keep Stubler, so if he's available bring back Stubler. Barring that I have no idea who is available either up here or down south, so maybe Pete Kuharchek wants another shot as DC ?
Offensively, I've made it no secret that I not only want Milanovich's system gone, but Brady as well. I really don't see the former happening at all, so I hope to god that Brady is given the boot, Himebauch could take over the job that was supposed to be his when Milo came over and Preston (current asst. Oline coach) could take over Himebauch's duties. Dump Elizondo and bring in a better more experienced coach. If Kack does retire, I would love to see him stay with the team as a coach, maybe not as WR coach or anything, but I hope the team can find him a spot, again IF he retires and is willing to stick around.

Talent wise, an upgrade to the offensive line is a necessity, we desperately need an upgrade at C, RG, and RT. I think we're pretty good with receivers, but I'd like to see a CDN WR drafted in the first two rounds and as I mentioned before, maybe time for Owens to leave, although if he's willing to take a massive pay cut and back-up role I wouldn't be opposed to him sticking around. Gurley, Elliott, Coombs and Hazelton have the talent, Bates has the talent but it may be too early to name him as good or bad player. I'd like to see the Argonauts go CDN at another SB or WR spot. Keep Stala around, he may not be a starter in the CFL anymore, but a good guy and player to keep in the locker room and for spot duty. Bring back Campbell next year, let him learn under Whitaker (and Kack if he sticks around), I can't stress this one enough, Campbell has been really impressive this year, I'd love to see him at least get a shot at being a pro player.

Defensively, there are a lot of issues IMO, we need more push from the dline, I still think Foley can play and Waud has been impressive, Wright and Cummings have been okay, but they need to keep looking for talent in those spots. I expect Okpalaugo to take a shot down South and Laing to either try the NFL or head home to Edmonton. I like our WIL and Mike linebackers, if Greenwood can stay healthy and Jones can improve on his pass coverage I think we'll have our own "Team 100". Sam Lb is a big problem IMO, Isaac can blitz, but can't cover very well anymore, we need an upgrade there. Our defensive backfield in the biggest problem IMO, aside from Jefferson and Gabriel, our guys just aren't good enough. Ansah can't play man-to-man to safe his life IMO, D. Smith gets beat often and seems to get 'lost' out there frequently and while I like Hawkins aggressiveness, he can't play man either IMO and doesn't have the speed to do it or catch up when a mistake is made. Keep Branden Smith around and coach him up to become a better player or release him if he's not good enough. Get rid of Agnew, why that guy's still on the roster confuses me to no end.

Look for another kicker, Swayze had one great year, 3 out of 4 terrible years would get you booted out in most places and his injury history has to send up red flags. Now, I'm not saying release him now or soon, but the look-out for the next kicker has to start this offseason, we can not have a repeat of the kicking carousel in 2016. As for the QB position, I've made it known that I'm not a big fan of either Ray or Harris, if Harris wants a big contract though, see ya. As for Ray I believe he can come back next year with his arm back to normal, Lulay took a long time to heal as well and IMO his arm was back this year compared to the Ottawa game last season, but at the same time Ray is 36 years old, his body can't take the hits the way gumby used to, so that has to be kept in mind with Ray's future. If the team decides to go with Harris no worries, I don't think he's as good as Ray or Collaros and at this point I'd actually keep Ray, but he's a capable QB. However, if the Argonauts decide to stick with Ray, they'd better hope that one of Kilgore, Fajardo or some other young QB that they bring in is ready to be "the guy" within two years.

Lastly, I can't wait for next season, fresh start in our new shared home and a new ownership group/leadership to lead this ship out troubled waters.

[Will]

The right-side of the OL needs to be addressed in the off-season. I think Van Zeyl is close to the end and Wayne Smith is not the solution at that position. It really depends on whether the Argos feel Van Roten is the answer at RG. He seemed to shuffle around quite a bit this season, but might have been at his best when he was substituting for Keeping at Centre earlier in the year. I'm not displeased with Holmes and Campbell on the left side so I think that can be maintained. It is probably time that the Argos decide what they want to do with Sewell.

The receiving corps was a source of frustration. It seemed like they did not get open for the last five games of the season. Here's what I think though, you have four guys: Gurley, Elliott, Hazelton and Spencer who flashed enough potential in their rookie/1st seasons that you go forward and see what year two brings. Sprinkle in a guy like Coombs in there and assuming they all make the logical progression then our receiving corps should be in decent shape for next year.

Defensively, we have some questions surrounding whether or not Laing returns and whether Tristan O gets a shot down south, but we won't really know until the offseason gets into gear about what is going on there.

I, do hope, that Barker with the new ownership isn't afraid to sign a veteran FA or two (completely hypothetical), worry is with the secondary that we've created some sort of vicious cycle where new guys have to be brought in every year, players who aren't familiar with the CFL and there are growing pains and then repeat, repeat, repeat. I realize continuity at DC is an issue, but none of us want Creehan back either.

[Wobbler]

I'm hoping/expecting that our personnel budget will be noticeably larger next year. If Bell/Kilmer are serious about trying to make money from the team, it would make sense to try to make a strong first impression in the new building and in a GC hosting year. That will make everything easier, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse to re-sign expensive players that may no longer be earning their roster spots. If we're ever going to be at least semi-active in the free agent market, this might be the year. Argo has already put in a plug for Andrew Harris, and I'm curious to see what the full 2016 FA list looks like.

[Will]

The question comes down to whether or not Barker's supposed hesitation to dip into the FA market was a matter of not trying to say that ownership won't fork over the cash or whether it is a legitimate personal belief. For the record, I have no problem with Barker wanting to recruit free agents from the United States, but use a hybrid model.

The pessimist in me is also worried over the fact that only two of our ten wins came by more than ten points. Suppose that the Argos don't get the bounces next year. In that respect, the ESF loss is a bit of a blessing in disguise because the Argos cannot and shouldn't rest on their laurels.

[Argo]

I agree with the SnowRogue and argofan87 posts.

Yes, upgrades need to be made at a variety of positions. Yes, coaches coach better with better players. However, today's debacle was another example of the Milanovich groove, or rather rut. Standard operating procedure resembles the "the definition of insanity".

Brady, enough. Please go far, far away.

Creehan has already been discussed in another thread.

Player upgrades of interest / force of circumstance:
O line. D line. Secondary. A quality young RB - where's the next Joe Smith, Barker?
Owens, if re-signed (with incentives, not base salary bloat) should not be automatically ordained a starter.
IIRC, Ray only attempted 2 or 3 longer throws today: I planned my schedule for the week ahead, or did a crossword, with the (jump) ball in flight.

So the QB situation is of significant concern. And since Milanovich simply benched Harris, we don't really know just why he regressed and whether he'd have managed to regain his previous high level of play.
Harris should have played a few series today (and stayed in if he provided a spark, or in particular the mustard, and produced).

[AngeloV]

I agree with the SnowRogue and argofan87 posts.

Yes, upgrades need to be made at a variety of positions. Yes, coaches coach better with better players. However, today's debacle was another example of the Milanovich groove, or rather rut. Standard operating procedure resembles the "the definition of insanity".

Brady, enough. Please go far, far away.

Creehan has already been discussed in another thread.



Wow. Nevermind the fact that they played 13 of 18 games on the road. To read this, you'd think they went 4-14 this year, and had their starting QB all season.

[Argo]

Wow. Nevermind the fact that they played 13 of 18 games on the road. To read this, you'd think they went 4-14 this year, and had their starting QB all season.

True, more than its fair share of woe was dealt to the team this year. Finishing north of .500 is not at all shabby under such circumstances. Today, a winnable game, yet one-and-done.

The team really did not miss its starting quarterback all that much this season, did it?

I remain more concerned, apparently, about the QB position (and, by now, all its constituents) than you are. We'll see next season what's what.

[paulwoods13]

Great comments by SnowRogue and others. We all agree on the o-line. I sure hope we get McEwan out of U of C, but I am fatalistically expecting him to try the NFL first. Please please please Sewell, be ready to start at RT next season.

I really hope we keep Cummings and find a way to persuade Laing and Okpalaugo to return, but not holding my breath on the latter two. Foley is gone, IMO. Isaac seems done, but we have excellent linebackers otherwise if we can keep them all. Love Greenwood, Jones and Miles, and I think Rolle could take a big step forward next season into regular PT on defence. Jefferson and Gabriel are the only DBs I have complete confidence in, but I think the position is tough enough to learn that some of the current group will improve next season.

Lots of talent at receiver, which should be our most set position. Owens is welcome to return but not at his current salary, I'm afraid. Whitaker likely has another year or two in him; Kackert is probably headed to retirement.

We have good to excellent depth of NATs, except on the o-line (where we really need them). If Campbell makes the team next year and McEwan arrives in the not-too-distant future, the 2015 draft may turn out to have been excellent.

As for QB, I'm on record as wanting both guys to return and thinking it is at least semi-possible. However, RR would have to come into camp knowing that he is earmarked to back up Harris. If he were to accept that role, he could easily play three or four more years with pretty good paycheques and occasional returns to glory.

Barker and Milanovich need to stay -- I really hope Milanovich does not get into consideration for the Maryland HC gig. DC might change (most posters here want that, certainly) and I would be totally down with Benevides as the new guy. Not prepared to toss Brady overboard but would not cry too hard if he left and Himebauch took over.

[R.J]

It is probably time that the Argos decide what they want to do with Sewell.

We all agree on the o-line. I sure hope we get McEwan out of U of C, but I am fatalistically expecting him to try the NFL first. Please please please Sewell, be ready to start at RT next season.
Completely forgot about Sewell, but I agree Sewell has to be ready next season and/or the Argo Brass needs to figure out what to do with him.

The receiving corps was a source of frustration. It seemed like they did not get open for the last five games of the season. Here's what I think though, you have four guys: Gurley, Elliott, Hazelton and Spencer who flashed enough potential in their rookie/1st seasons that you go forward and see what year two brings. Sprinkle in a guy like Coombs in there and assuming they all make the logical progression then our receiving corps should be in decent shape for next year.
Not sure how much stock should be put into this, but just before Rays first start this season (IIRC), Ray was asked about how he'll do in the offense with receivers he's never played with and Ray's response something to the effect of "our offense is so detailed that there's very little freelancing", maybe that's why the receivers don't get open, Milanovich's offense is so specific that they're only supposed to be in certain spots at all times. I didn't/don't know what to make of it, but maybe it could be a valid excuse ?

However, RR would have to come into camp knowing that he is earmarked to back up Harris. If he were to accept that role, he could easily play three or four more years with pretty good paycheques and occasional returns to glory.
What has Ray done that he should be demoted to the back up role and what has Harris done (aside from being 7 years younger) to be named the starter ?
I have no issue if the starting spot is up for grabs during TC, let the best QB win, but IMO Ray is still the starter until Harris unseats him.

Wow. Nevermind the fact that they played 13 of 18 games on the road. To read this, you'd think they went 4-14 this year, and had their starting QB all season.
I think our expectations were so high for the playoff game that this season is now seen as a big disappointment, but I will say this, considering everything the team had to deal with this year, we made a great run.

[ArgoRavi]

Kirk Penton from the Winnipeg Sun has a list of free agents from the Argos:

MORE ARGO UNCERTAINTY
Toronto’s unofficial list of potential free agents doesn’t stop with Ray and Harris. There are many starters who could move elsewhere if they don’t get deals done with Jim Barker before the second Tuesday in February.
Other notable potential free agents are offensive linemen Jeff Keeping and Wayne Smith, running back Brandon Whitaker, receiver Chad Owens, defensive linemen Tristan Okpalaugo, Cleyon Laing, Euclid Cummings and Jason Vega, linebackers Greg Jones and Cory Greenwood, defensive back Jermaine Gabriel and Waters.

http://slam.canoe.com/Slam/Football/CFL/Hamilton/2015/11/15/22573294.html

Regarding the QB situation, the good news for the Argos is that there aren't a lot of openings for starters around the league. Winnipeg is set with Willy, the Riders with Durant, B.C. seems committed to Jennings, the Esks with Reilly, the Stamps with Mitchell, the Ticats with Collaros and the RedBlacks with Burris. You do have the Als who are currently planning on going with Glenn as their starter with a bunch of promising youngsters behind him but would Montreal really be that desirable a spot for either Ray or Harris? IMO, it makes much more sense for both Ray and Harris to stay put in Toronto in a system that they are comfortable in than take a shot elsewhere where they wouldn't be guaranteed to be a starter anyway. The Argos will end up retaining one of those QBs for sure and I suspect both. However, if they lose one of them, Travis Lulay is also a free agent and might not be a bad fit in Toronto.

[doubleblue]

I believe Foley is in the last year of his deal, I remember earlier in the season he was asked about heading into BMO next year and he brought up how he was a free agent, so he might not even be a part of it.

Some Changes are clearly needed on this team, I'm going to have to take Owens off my 'untouchables" list, he's not the player he once was and Spencer can easily take over his spot. Barker and Milo aren't going anywhere, not that I'd want Barker to leave in the first place, but new offensive and defensive schemes are needed. I would love to see Benevides come in as the DC, if not him then Claybrooks, but I don't see Claybrooks going anywhere since he's the DC heir apparent in Calgary, Dickenson may not keep Stubler, so if he's available bring back Stubler. Barring that I have no idea who is available either up here or down south, so maybe Pete Kuharchek wants another shot as DC ?
Offensively, I've made it no secret that I not only want Milanovich's system gone, but Brady as well. I really don't see the former happening at all, so I hope to god that Brady is given the boot, Himebauch could take over the job that was supposed to be his when Milo came over and Preston (current asst. Oline coach) could take over Himebauch's duties. Dump Elizondo and bring in a better more experienced coach. If Kack does retire, I would love to see him stay with the team as a coach, maybe not as WR coach or anything, but I hope the team can find him a spot, again IF he retires and is willing to stick around.

Talent wise, an upgrade to the offensive line is a necessity, we desperately need an upgrade at C, RG, and RT. I think we're pretty good with receivers, but I'd like to see a CDN WR drafted in the first two rounds and as I mentioned before, maybe time for Owens to leave, although if he's willing to take a massive pay cut and back-up role I wouldn't be opposed to him sticking around. Gurley, Elliott, Coombs and Hazelton have the talent, Bates has the talent but it may be too early to name him as good or bad player. I'd like to see the Argonauts go CDN at another SB or WR spot. Keep Stala around, he may not be a starter in the CFL anymore, but a good guy and player to keep in the locker room and for spot duty. Bring back Campbell next year, let him learn under Whitaker (and Kack if he sticks around), I can't stress this one enough, Campbell has been really impressive this year, I'd love to see him at least get a shot at being a pro player.

Defensively, there are a lot of issues IMO, we need more push from the dline, I still think Foley can play and Waud has been impressive, Wright and Cummings have been okay, but they need to keep looking for talent in those spots. I expect Okpalaugo to take a shot down South and Laing to either try the NFL or head home to Edmonton. I like our WIL and Mike linebackers, if Greenwood can stay healthy and Jones can improve on his pass coverage I think we'll have our own "Team 100". Sam Lb is a big problem IMO, Isaac can blitz, but can't cover very well anymore, we need an upgrade there. Our defensive backfield in the biggest problem IMO, aside from Jefferson and Gabriel, our guys just aren't good enough. Ansah can't play man-to-man to safe his life IMO, D. Smith gets beat often and seems to get 'lost' out there frequently and while I like Hawkins aggressiveness, he can't play man either IMO and doesn't have the speed to do it or catch up when a mistake is made. Keep Branden Smith around and coach him up to become a better player or release him if he's not good enough. Get rid of Agnew, why that guy's still on the roster confuses me to no end.

Look for another kicker, Swayze had one great year, 3 out of 4 terrible years would get you booted out in most places and his injury history has to send up red flags. Now, I'm not saying release him now or soon, but the look-out for the next kicker has to start this offseason, we can not have a repeat of the kicking carousel in 2016. As for the QB position, I've made it known that I'm not a big fan of either Ray or Harris, if Harris wants a big contract though, see ya. As for Ray I believe he can come back next year with his arm back to normal, Lulay took a long time to heal as well and IMO his arm was back this year compared to the Ottawa game last season, but at the same time Ray is 36 years old, his body can't take the hits the way gumby used to, so that has to be kept in mind with Ray's future. If the team decides to go with Harris no worries, I don't think he's as good as Ray or Collaros and at this point I'd actually keep Ray, but he's a capable QB. However, if the Argonauts decide to stick with Ray, they'd better hope that one of Kilgore, Fajardo or some other young QB that they bring in is ready to be "the guy" within two years.

Lastly, I can't wait for next season, fresh start in our new shared home and a new ownership group/leadership to lead this ship out troubled waters.

X2 Couldn't ay it much better myself.

[KCargosfan]

Wow. Nevermind the fact that they played 13 of 18 games on the road. To read this, you'd think they went 4-14 this year, and had their starting QB all season.


No joke. The fact this team did what it did this season with all the crap it dealt with is impressive. If Waters doesn't miss 2 makeable FGs (maybe if he makes just one) this team is in the Eastern Final with a very good shot to go to the Grey Cup against a beatable Ottawa team.

[OV Argo]

Maryland has a HC job open and Millanovich could be in the running?

Love to see that, and good luck to him if he could get a promotion/ better job and shot at the big league.

[Wobbler]

Kirk Penton from the Winnipeg Sun has a list of free agents from the Argos:
Wow - that is a lot of good players, and he didn't even mention Foley. The amount of effort I'd make to re-sign each one (from 1-3 stars, where 1 star means trying to underpay perceived market value and 3 stars means being willing to overpay a bit) would be:

Ray: **
Harris: ***
Keeping: **
W Smith: *
Whitaker: ***
Owens: **
Okpalaugo: **
Laing: ***
Cummings: **
Vega: *
Jones: ***
Greenwood: **
Gabriel: ***
Waters: **
Foley: **

Keeping hasn't had a good year, but having an experienced center on the roster is mandatory. Greenwood and Waters would be three-star guys if their health could be 99% confirmed.

[Ballstothewall]

Anyone know the deal with Travis Luly. I know he is a free agent come FEb. has he fully recovered?, was his last injury his ankle? The lions look set at QB with this new guy and his low salary. They will dump Travis and his 450,000. Can see the lions loading up on free agents for 2016. Wonder where Travis will land. Would the Argos take a shot at him, if they work him out and liked what they see?

[AngeloV]

Anyone know the deal with Travis Luly. I know he is a free agent come FEb. has he fully recovered?, was his last injury his ankle? The lions look set at QB with this new guy and his low salary. They will dump Travis and his 450,000. Can see the lions loading up on free agents for 2016. Wonder where Travis will land. Would the Argos take a shot at him, if they work him out and liked what they see?

Hi arm looked strong the last 2 games, but inactivity may have been an issue for him. Definitely worth a look, and if he wants to play, you may get him at a bargain.

[argotom]

Really when you think of it any QB that is signed from FA to including either or both of our current top two should include incentive laden $.

[AngeloV]

Really when you think of it any QB that is signed from FA to including either or both of our current top two should include incentive laden $.

Same could be said for a QB that has only played most of 1 season as a starter.

[ArgoRavi]

Maryland has a HC job open and Millanovich could be in the running?

Love to see that, and good luck to him if he could get a promotion/ better job and shot at the big league.

There was a media report a week or two ago which indicated that Milanovich was "very excited" about the change of ownership and stadium for the Argos. I would be shocked to see him go anywhere at this point and I sure hope that he stays put.

[paulwoods13]

Wow - that is a lot of good players, and he didn't even mention Foley. The amount of effort I'd make to re-sign each one (from 1-3 stars, where 1 star means trying to underpay perceived market value and 3 stars means being willing to overpay a bit) would be:

Ray: **
Harris: ***
Keeping: **
W Smith: *
Whitaker: ***
Owens: **
Okpalaugo: **
Laing: ***
Cummings: **
Vega: *
Jones: ***
Greenwood: **
Gabriel: ***
Waters: **
Foley: **

Keeping hasn't had a good year, but having an experienced center on the roster is mandatory. Greenwood and Waters would be three-star guys if their health could be 99% confirmed.

Undervaluing Greenwood and Okpalaugo, IMO. Overvaluing Foley altho his nationality makes him more valuable than he really is.

[Wobbler]

You're probably right about Okpalaugo.

Greenwood gets three stars if he really is healthy. Foley is probably still the top NAT rush end in the league and a good PR guy, so I'd be willing to pay the going rate for him.

[OV Argo]

You're probably right about Okpalaugo.

Greenwood gets three stars if he really is healthy. Foley is probably still the top NAT rush end in the league and a good PR guy, so I'd be willing to pay the going rate for him.

I'm a big Foley fan, but IMO he is not near as good as a few years ago; and Cappicotti for Ottawa is the way better CFL DE now.

Not sure Okpo wil get any NFL interest; also not sure Laing will be welcome "home" in Edmonton after being accused of purposely trying to injure their starting QB - twice.

As far as the D: whole new D-backfield competition needed IMO - Gabriel is a keeper and Jefferson the best of the new guys but the rest are not near good enough; maybe Jimbo could change his recruiting tune and go out and sign a proven vet D-backfielder instead of thinking he can just throw a bunch of NFL cuts together and that means they can form a good unit.

D-line: be great to have all 3 DTs back; and Okpo & Foley; but find another DE (why a mediocre Wright was playing much AND on the field at a crucial part of the play-off game - to help cost the game (questionable call maybe, but I think he had to try to get out of the way of falling into the QB when you have to know they call anything close there) is way beyond me.

Nice to have Greenwood back if he is healthy; I know a lot of commentators here are big fans of Jones at MLB but not so much me - he is no Sol-E or Muamba in terms of a play-making MLB; so bring in some competition there; and find a big play-making OLB; Issac is a vet but not a real stud there. Miles did really well for a young guy throw in - nice draft pick - but maybe better suited as a MLB

O-Line is the huge issue on offence IMO; like to see a healthy Jerriel King back and love to see draft pick McEwen show up; Holmes has got to get better at guard - he was blown away far too often late in the season - maybe he should get a shot at OT where he played in college; the rest = bring in lots of competition; Van Roten is average at best IMO and i believe Sewell is a write-off unless he can make the transition to guard cause doubtful he gets a real shot at OT; Van Zeyl & Keeping = vets but maybe suited as vet back-ups.

[Wobbler]

Terrific post, OV. I think you're underrating Van Roten a bit (don't forget versatility!) but otherwise, I agree.


I'm a big Foley fan, but IMO he is not near as good as a few years ago; and Cappicotti for Ottawa is the way better CFL DE now.
Yeah, you're probably right about Cappicotti.

[ArgoRavi]

Kirk Penton is reporting in the Sun that the Argos have a whopping 24 potential free agents (Frank Zicarelli says 28):

CHANGE IS COMING
Milanovich would love to have an off-season in which his roster doesn’t turn over very much, but with at least a whopping 24 potential free agents that is unlikely to happen.
“The reality is the last two seasons we’ve pretty much rebuilt our personnel, and Jim and his staff did a great job this year of adding real talent and what I would hope is that there’s not much turnover and we could have the same off-season and then you have talented players competing for the same position.
“When you have multiple guys at one position that are good, it brings out the best in everybody. So that’s what I’m hoping for, but we’ll have to see how it goes.”

http://slam.canoe.com/Slam/Football/CFL/Toronto/2015/11/16/22573649.html
http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/16/argonauts-could-be-hit-hard-by-free-agency (http://slam.canoe.com/Slam/Football/CFL/Toronto/2015/11/16/22573649.html)

[Will]

That's 1/2 of our gameday roster!

[sthfan1988]

The biggest question going into 2016 is at QB. Harris started to struggle when Ray started to dress. I'm not sure if there is a connection but as Mike Hogan mentioned after the game on Sunday, 15 casts a very large shadow. It was refreshing, from my perspective, that we had a QB that we developed and didn't come to the team as a FA cast off. My opinion is that if you give the keys to Harris, you'd get what we saw in the first half of the year. He pushes the ball down the field more than Ray ever did. Ray is going to have a better QB rating but when all you do is check down to the back and get 4 yards each pass, harder to score TDs. I'm pretty sure both coach M and JB will take some time and do what is best for the team regarding the QB.

[1argoholic]

I've been saying that for years about finding our own qb's and rb's. It finally happened in the last three or so years. Now the Argos are supplying the league with talent at both positions. I'm really hoping we've found a gem in Cody Fajardo. I've watched some video and the guy can run like the wind and he's a pretty solid passer. I guess the NFL skipped him due to some sort of medical concern. Heard that one before.

[AngeloV]

I really don't care where we get our talent. It would be nice for a star player to stay here for a number of years, but I'm not against bringing in FA's, because the fact of the matter is contracts aren't guaranteed, and players only sign 2-3 year contracts for the most part, so it is very difficult to develop someone and hope he will be your starter for the next 7-10 years.

[paulwoods13]

I really don't care where we get our talent. It would be nice for a star player to stay here for a number of years, but I'm not against bringing in FA's, because the fact of the matter is contracts aren't guaranteed, and players only sign 2-3 year contracts for the most part, so it is very difficult to develop someone and hope he will be your starter for the next 7-10 years.

More like 1- to 2-year contracts these days. A whole lot of 1s, which is why Ham has 34 FAs and we have something like 24.

[AngeloV]

More like 1- to 2-year contracts these days. A whole lot of 1s, which is why Ham has 34 FAs and we have something like 24.

Exactly Paul. The notion of developing your own players is great, but at the end of the day, it's not something the Argos have done regularly, but they have won as many Grey Cups as anyone over the last 32 years. It's the way that football has become, and it's because contracts aren't guaranteed.

[paulwoods13]

I think we are heading into an era when only a handful of huge stars (mostly QBs, who have few NFL options but are hot commodities for other CFL teams) will be signed to deals lasting longer than a year; everyone else will be a free agent each season, and roster turnover will be even more frequent than it already is. The players wanted this; now some will benefit and some won't. For GMs, if you don't like your team one year, just wait until Feb and sign a bunch of free agents to one-year deals. We could in theory sign 30 members of this year's Ticats if we really wanted to be players.

[R.J]

There's quite a few Nationals on the Ticats roster that could become free agents of which I'd love to see the Argonauts grab. Gascon-Nadon, Laurent, Plesius, Edem and Stephen.

[gilthethrill]

There's quite a few Nationals on the Ticats roster that could become free agents of which I'd love to see the Argonauts grab. Gascon-Nadon, Laurent, Plesius, Edem and Stephen.


What about Brian Bulcke the DT? I know he has been injured as of late, but he may very well be available. He could perhaps replace Laing, who I forsee playing in Alberta next year.

[R.J]

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/17/cfl-blitz-chris-jones-to-roughriders-you-never-know

If the Argos can sign only one quarterback, it has to be (Ricky) Ray. They’re hosting the Grey Cup, they’re moving into a new stadium, and it’s the first year with brand new ownership. Gotta go with the proven guy.
I agree, although only partially for this reason.

[AngeloV]

There's quite a few Nationals on the Ticats roster that could become free agents of which I'd love to see the Argonauts grab. Gascon-Nadon, Laurent, Plesius, Edem and Stephen.

Laurent and Edem are the 2 I'd be interested in.

[Will]

Laurent and Edem are the 2 I'd be interested in.

I don't see Hamilton letting Laurent get away.

I wonder if Waud would be ready to step into Laing's spot if the latter departs?

[R.J]

Laurent and Edem are the 2 I'd be interested in.
Edem is my #1 free agent currently (until we see the full lists), although where to play him ? I like Gabriel at safety and I'd rather see Edem start than just come in as a back-up, though I wouldn't mind seeing Gabriel at corner.


I don't see Hamilton letting Laurent get away.

I wonder if Waud would be ready to step into Laing's spot if the latter departs?
I think Waud could easily start, IMO wasn't much difference in play between Waud and Laing, but one potential problem is, we currently don't have a back-up for Waud.

[AngeloV]

Edem is my #1 free agent currently (until we see the full lists), although where to play him ? I like Gabriel at safety and I'd rather see Edem start than just come in as a back-up, though I wouldn't mind seeing Gabriel at corner.

Based on what I have seen, Gabriel does not have cover skills to play corner.

[gilthethrill]

Laurent and Edem are the 2 I'd be interested in.

I always wondered why Edem was no longer starting in Montreal. He had a great rookie season. I expect the Argo ownership (the new Argo ownership that is) to allow Barker to be in the mix for any elite FA's this offseason.

[R.J]

Based on what I have seen, Gabriel does not have cover skills to play corner.
Neither does Edem IMO, so we're back to my original issue, where to put Edem, if he were to come here. I think he has the potential to be better than Gabriel, but as we all know potential doesn't always come to fruition.

[paulwoods13]

I was worried about Laing going to Edm, but I now think he either signs in the NFL or re-signs with the Argos. Hope I'm right because we really need him despite his annoying penalties.

[paulwoods13]

Edem's a mystery. I can't believe Mtl let him go just because he had signalled he would not re-sign there. Has to be more to it. I liked him a ton as a rookie but IMO he is not close to Gabriel at this point. Could be a fantastic backup/STer and possibly a replacement for Isaac at LB altho that might be a stretch.

[R.J]

I was worried about Laing going to Edm, but I now think he either signs in the NFL or re-signs with the Argos. Hope I'm right because we really need him despite his annoying penalties.
Do you recall how Laing was sitting out early in TC ? Doesn't seem like someone who wants to be here. NFL or Edmonton would be my guess.

[Will]

Do you recall how Laing was sitting out early in TC ? Doesn't seem like someone who wants to be here. NFL or Edmonton would be my guess.

He isn't exactly the most popular guy in his hometown right now.

[R.J]

He isn't exactly the most popular guy in his hometown right now.
That stuff is usually forgiven pretty quickly when you join the team.

[ArgoRavi]

Do you recall how Laing was sitting out early in TC ? Doesn't seem like someone who wants to be here. NFL or Edmonton would be my guess.

What that hold out told me is that it was about the money. If the Argos show Laing the money, he will be back in Toronto.

[paulwoods13]

Do you recall how Laing was sitting out early in TC ? Doesn't seem like someone who wants to be here. NFL or Edmonton would be my guess.

Yep. But something tells me he has little interest in going back there. As argofan87 says, he has taken a fair bit of abuse from his home town.

[AngeloV]

Ray is going to have a better QB rating but when all you do is check down to the back and get 4 yards each pass, harder to score TDs. I'm pretty sure both coach M and JB will take some time and do what is best for the team regarding the QB.

I love the notion that Ray checks down and Harris doesn't. If that is the case, then please explain to me how over 3 years as starter with the Argos, Ray averaged 11.8 yards per completion and Harris in his 1 year starting averaged 11.4 yards per completion. Even last year with a depleted receiving core, Ray was at 10.8...but having said that, in his limited play last year, Harris averaged 10.7 yards per completion.

My point being, Ray doesn't check down any more than Harris does.

[R.J]

I love the notion that Ray checks down and Harris doesn't. If that is the case, then please explain to me how over 3 years as starter with the Argos, Ray averaged 11.8 yards per completion and Harris in his 1 year starting averaged 11.4 yards per completion. Even last year with a depleted receiving core, Ray was at 10.8...but having said that, in his limited play last year, Harris averaged 10.7 yards per completion.

My point being, Ray doesn't check down any more than Harris does.
I agree, I find it more than just odd some people around here having this notion. We must be watching completely different games and QB's then everyone else around here Angelo.

[paulwoods13]

Checking down is intrinsic to the offensive scheme. It's one of the reasons some posters want Milanovich fired. They hate the system he created. But there is absolutely no doubt that Ricky Ray for four years (when healthy) and Trevor Harris this year ran the system the coach devised. Including check downs on most passes.

[argonaut11xx]

The Argonauts need to find a way to resign both Ray and Harris. If they think one or the other is the answer, then the club is foolish.

[OV Argo]

There's quite a few Nationals on the Ticats roster that could become free agents of which I'd love to see the Argonauts grab. Gascon-Nadon, Laurent, Plesius, Edem and Stephen.


Edem lost his job in Monteal - after a very good rookie season - to M-O Brouillete, who is bigger & faster; and then the Als drafted former Q all-star safety Anthony Coady last draft, so maybe Edem was considered expendable but he was on their roster as a back-up for close to 2 seasons; maybe he could play at SAM OLB, or maybe Gabriel could make the switch to there?

Be interesting to see if Gascon-Nadon gets the start at DE in the East Final with Norwood out; he was the main back-up there at DE but didn't play much as they do not rotate their starting DEs out much; if Gascon-Nadon does not start next game and they air-lift some import in to play, then that could be the slap in the face / lack of respect that might see him want to get out of there and go to another team for a chance at more playing time; love to see the Argos get that guy for a shot as a rotation or maybe starting DE - he has plenty of CFL experience now and has flashed talent in his bits of CFL playing time and is not old.

Plesius is IMO a very talented D player and he may just be viewed as a back-up/ST guy by Kenty with MLB pencilled-in for an import (Reed is average at best IMO); so maybe Plesius would jump at a chance for more playing time elsewhere; maybe Jones is locked in at MLB as the incumbent but Plesius & Thomas Miles could be given a close TC look to see if they could win the job

Laurent would be a HUGE signing IMO - maybe the best all-around DT in the CFL now; I just wouldn't go nuts with over-$pending on the guy, especially if Laing & Waud are both coming back; Laurent may be a league best type DT now but he ain't exactly a John Helton or Dave Fennell level DT talent - nobody close to that level at that position in the CFL for years & years now

[R.J]

Edem lost his job in Monteal - after a very good rookie season - to M-O Brouillete, who is bigger & faster; and then the Als drafted former Q all-star safety Anthony Coady last draft, so maybe Edem was considered expendable but he was on their roster as a back-up for close to 2 seasons; maybe he could play at SAM OLB, or maybe Gabriel could make the switch to there?

Be interesting to see if Gascon-Nadon gets the start at DE in the East Final with Norwood out; he was the main back-up there at DE but didn't play much as they do not rotate their starting DEs out much; if Gascon-Nadon does not start next game and they air-lift some import in to play, then that could be the slap in the face / lack of respect that might see him want to get out of there and go to another team for a chance at more playing time; love to see the Argos get that guy for a shot as a rotation or maybe starting DE - he has plenty of CFL experience now and has flashed talent in his bits of CFL playing time and is not old.

Plesius is IMO a very talented D player and he may just be viewed as a back-up/ST guy by Kenty with MLB pencilled-in for an import (Reed is average at best IMO); so maybe Plesius would jump at a chance for more playing time elsewhere; maybe Jones is locked in at MLB as the incumbent but Plesius & Thomas Miles could be given a close TC look to see if they could win the job

Laurent would be a HUGE signing IMO - maybe the best all-around DT in the CFL now; I just wouldn't go nuts with over-$pending on the guy, especially if Laing & Waud are both coming back; Laurent may be a league best type DT now but he ain't exactly a John Helton or Dave Fennell level DT talent - nobody close to that level at that position in the CFL for years & years now

Holy crap, great idea OV, I didn't even think of putting Edem at SAM, it would be a brilliant move if it were to happen. Edem can hit and IMO has pretty good cover skills (from what I can recall in Montreal), which again IMO is what the Argonauts lacked at SAM this year. Agreed on the other counts as well. At the very least, Gascon-Nadon could be a good rotation guy, doesn't necessarily need to be the starter considering how dlines work nowadays. Plesius is without question a talented player, the way I see it, we'll never know if he can be an impact starter until he actually gets some starts. As for Laurent, yes as of right now I'd say he's a top DT in the league, how long that lasts who knows, but I'd have no issue with Laurent and Waud playing if Laing decides to leave.

[paulwoods13]

Holy crap, great idea OV, I didn't even think of putting Edem at SAM, it would be a brilliant move if it were to happen.

Might even have been a brilliant (albeit somewhat half-hearted) idea 10 posts earlier.

[Rich]

I love the notion that Ray checks down and Harris doesn't. If that is the case, then please explain to me how over 3 years as starter with the Argos, Ray averaged 11.8 yards per completion and Harris in his 1 year starting averaged 11.4 yards per completion. Even last year with a depleted receiving core, Ray was at 10.8...but having said that, in his limited play last year, Harris averaged 10.7 yards per completion.


Harris is demonstrably better than Ray in the red zone. Harris led the CFL in TD passes this year with 33. The next closest were Burris and Mitchell at 26, and they played 2 more games. Last year Ray threw 28.

Did Ray ever have a 5-TD game for the Argos like Harris did? Did he even ever have a 4-TD game? I would argue that when Harris was at the top of his game this year, he had the offence clicking better than Ray ever did. I think Harris is a more fiery competitor than Ray, and that his teammates respond to him better because of it. How many TDs did Harris throw in the 4th quarter? A large percentage for sure. That's the sign of a great QB, he rallies his team when it counts.

Surely we can all agree that Ray's best days are behind him, and that Harris with a year under his belt can only get better. Ray is 37 and has missed significant portions of three of the four seasons he has played here. What kind of idiot GM would put all his eggs in that creaky old basket? Next year is reason enough to doubt. But what about 2017 or 2018, does anybody seriously believe Ray will be effective when he's 39 and 40? Take a look at Peyton Manning to see how fast a great one's abilities can fall off the cliff.

Give Harris a big 3-year contract at top dollar. You get stability at the QB position for the three most important seasons in Argonaut franchise history -- the first three at BMO. If Ricky wants to accept the humiliation of being given backup dollars, I'm fine with that.

[paulwoods13]

Harris is demonstrably better than Ray in the red zone. Harris led the CFL in TD passes this year with 33. The next closest were Burris and Mitchell at 26, and they played 2 more games. Last year Ray threw 28.

And in 2013 Ray threw 21 TD passes in a bit more than 10 games. Also two INTs, compared to Harris's 19 this season. (Harris's INT percentage this year was 3.5; RR's is 1.9 during his Argo career.)


Did Ray ever have a 5-TD game for the Argos like Harris did? Did he even ever have a 4-TD game?

He has had four four-TD games for the Argos. No five-TD games.

I don't disagree with your basic premise that Harris needs to be re-signed and Ray's coming to the end of his career. But Ray is not chopped liver yet, and Harris is not a proven star yet.

[R.J]

Ray is 36 years old, not 37. He was born in 1979 and we're in the year 2015, so I think people need to learn how to calculate numbers.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/18/free-agency-full-of-happiness-or-headaches-for-gms
I think I may have a new #1 FA lol. Although I highly doubt he comes back.


Might even have been a brilliant (albeit somewhat half-hearted) idea 10 posts earlier.
Sorry paul, I missed the post. Although, considering you yourself admit it was "somewhat half-hearted", OV's comment was brilliant for seriously putting some thought into it.

[AngeloV]

Did Ray ever have a 5-TD game for the Argos like Harris did?

What a stupid comment.

In the home opener in 2014, the Argos put up 48 points against the Riders. I guess you feel throwing for 400+ yards and 3 TD's while having a back rush for 2 TD's just isn't as good as throwing for 400+ and 5 TD's.

you must have always been the ultimate team player growing up.

[Rich]

What a stupid comment.

In the home opener in 2014, the Argos put up 48 points against the Riders. I guess you feel throwing for 400+ yards and 3 TD's while having a back rush for 2 TD's just isn't as good as throwing for 400+ and 5 TD's.

you must have always been the ultimate team player growing up.

Well I'll tell you one thing, I've never been so lacking in self-worth that I felt the need to constantly belittle others on an Argonauts message board in order to achieve some kind of personal validation.

[AngeloV]

Well I'll tell you one thing, I've never been so lacking in self-worth that I felt the need to constantly belittle others on an Argonauts message board in order to achieve some kind of personal validation.

Good for you.

[Stevoman]

I hope both can be back but if we have to choose, there's more long term upside with Trevor Harris and I will be more frustrated with losing him than losing Ray.
I was going to post something about why more players weren't extended and then I looked at free agents from other teams and with the exception of Winnipeg, their list is as long or longer!

[ArgoRavi]

I hope both can be back but if we have to choose, there's more long term upside with Trevor Harris and I will be more frustrated with losing him than losing Ray.
I was going to post something about why more players weren't extended and then I looked at free agents from other teams and with the exception of Winnipeg, their list is as long or longer!

I did see or hear a report which suggested that the Argos weren't allowed to extend any players until the new ownership group took over the team but I don't know how valid that is.

[argolio]

Good for you.You forgot the "Oh" part.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hR5YNqE3K8

[R.J]

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl-insider-trading-roughriders-interested-in-eskimos-jones-1.401483

A source close to the University of Maryland board confirms that Argonaut head coach Scott Milanovich is a candidate for the head coaching vacancy at that school. Milanovich is a former Maryland quarterback and was roomates with Under Armour founder Kevin Plank, who is a significant booster of that program. Milanovich is under contract to the Argos who would likely allow him to pursue the Maryland job in the event it was offered to him.

Not going to lie, I'm kind of hoping this happens, although with my luck I just jinxed it.

[OV Argo]

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl-insider-trading-roughriders-interested-in-eskimos-jones-1.401483


Not going to lie, I'm kind of hoping this happens, although with my luck I just jinxed it.

I'm with you - love to see that happen.

Also - in hopes for 2016 season - Argo draft picks from last year - C McEwen and RB Campbell - both made 1st team CIS all-star this season in their final year of college ball. Hopefully both show-up for Argo TC to compete; but some think McEwen will get an NFL shot (doubtful IMO other than a rookie camp / no contract type look), OR will only want to play out west in the CFL; and is Campbell going to get a real shot to play tailback with this Argos' staff ?

[Argo57]

I'm with you - love to see that happen.

Also - in hopes for 2016 season - Argo draft picks from last year - C McEwen and RB Campbell - both made 1st team CIS all-star this season in their final year of college ball. Hopefully both show-up for Argo TC to compete; but some think McEwen will get an NFL shot (doubtful IMO other than a rookie camp / no contract type look), OR will only want to play out west in the CFL; and is Campbell going to get a real shot to play tailback with this Argos' staff ?

Stubler is one of the best, would be a huge upgrade as Argo DC, Milanovich leaving wouldn't surprise me at all and would obviously force this franchise into another direction (which may actually be a blessing in disguise).
I have wondered all along if we are in for more changes than we think heading into 2016.

[paulwoods13]

Be careful what you wish for. Those who think we can easily find a better head coach than the on we have are whistling in the dark, IMO. Chances are good that we will take a big backward step if we lose Milanovich to the Maryland job, IMO.

[KCargosfan]

Be careful what you wish for. Those who think we can easily find a better head coach than the on we have are whistling in the dark, IMO. Chances are good that we will take a big backward step if we lose Milanovich to the Maryland job, IMO.

Agreed. Losing SM would not be good for us at all. But if he does take the Maryland job, I can't blame him as his salary would likely be tripled or quadrupled.

[Argo57]

Be careful what you wish for. Those who think we can easily find a better head coach than the on we have are whistling in the dark, IMO. Chances are good that we will take a big backward step if we lose Milanovich to the Maryland job, IMO.

If the reports are true Milanovich obviously is looking to move on so change may be coming whether fans like it or not.
If he is of the mindset of wanting a change (which apparently he may) then it may be better if he moves on.
I have really like Milanovich since he arrived however even if the Maryland job doesn't materialize you have to now think it is only a matter of time before he leaves.

[argolio]

I think Milanovich wants to leave because he doesn't want to answer any more of Zicarelli's inane questions.

[R.J]

Be careful what you wish for. Those who think we can easily find a better head coach than the on we have are whistling in the dark, IMO. Chances are good that we will take a big backward step if we lose Milanovich to the Maryland job, IMO.
I agree to an extent I suppose. If Milanovich were to leave, there's a chance that the Argonauts could become considerably worse, but at the same time I'm looking at the massive positive of getting rid of the craptastic offense we've had to watch the last couple of years. I brought up earlier this year that I could see Himebauch becoming the next Argonauts Head Coach, obviously it's a big if, because it's not guaranteed Milanovich gets the job and who knows if he wants to take Himebauch with him. I'm still holding out hope that Brady and Creehan are given the boot, but if Milanovich stays or even if Himebauch takes over the HC spot, I still see Brady leading the offense.


If the reports are true Milanovich obviously is looking to move on so change may be coming whether fans like it or not.
If he is of the mindset of wanting a change (which apparently he may) then it may be better if he moves on.
I have really like Milanovich since he arrived however even if the Maryland job doesn't materialize you have to now think it is only a matter of time before he leaves.
Milanovich just signed a 3 year extension a few months ago, I don't think he wants a change or wants to leave, this is more simply a big opportunity that wasn't expected to occur.

[ArgoRavi]

Milanovich just signed a 3 year extension a few months ago, I don't think he wants a change or wants to leave, this is more simply a big opportunity that wasn't expected to occur.

Furthermore, Milanovich just said about three or four weeks ago that he is very excited to coach the Argos next year under new ownership and at BMO so I don't see him going anywhere. As I said in another thread, Lawless and Naylor are adding 2 and 2 together and coming up with 6 on this Maryland issue.

[Argo57]

Furthermore, Milanovich just said about three or four weeks ago that he is very excited to coach the Argos next year under new ownership and at BMO so I don't see him going anywhere. As I said in another thread, Lawless and Naylor are adding 2 and 2 together and coming up with 6 on this Maryland issue.

What would you expect him to say Ravi?, wouldn't be the first time a coach or player states they are looking forward to coming back then they leave.
Let's be honest, Milanovich is American and being the HC of an NCAA program being paid in USD$ would probably easily peak his interest.

[Neely2005]

On the pre game they were saying that we are trying to get Rich Stubler back as our defensive coordinator.

[paulwoods13]

Please please please new owners, give JB the cash to sign some free agents.

Shamawd Chambers is on Edm's FA list.

[R.J]

Furthermore, Milanovich just said about three or four weeks ago that he is very excited to coach the Argos next year under new ownership and at BMO so I don't see him going anywhere. As I said in another thread, Lawless and Naylor are adding 2 and 2 together and coming up with 6 on this Maryland issue.
It's a long shot at best, but there is still a chance it could happen.
https://media.giphy.com/media/ToMjGpKniGqRNLGBrhu/giphy.gif

[Neely2005]

Please please please new owners, give JB the cash to sign some free agents.

Shamawd Chambers is on Edm's FA list.

I'm expecting the Argonauts to spend to the cap every season now.

[R.J]

I'm expecting the Argonauts to spend to the cap every season now.
I hope not, spend more yes, but leave a little wiggle room in case they need it, then if they don't end up spending to the cap you can use the leftover for bonus' on extensions and the like.

[Qman]

I'm expecting the Argonauts to spend to the cap every season now.

every team spends to 99.999% of the cap.

[JBarnsley]

In the case of the Argos, I sure wish they could sign some big name guys kinda like TFC did. I know its not viable or gonna happen in the CFL because of the huge problems it caused in the 90s but i feel like Toronto would jump on the Bandwagon if they picked up aging big name players.

[AngeloV]

In the case of the Argos, I sure wish they could sign some big name guys kinda like TFC did. I know its not viable or gonna happen in the CFL because of the huge problems it caused in the 90s but i feel like Toronto would jump on the Bandwagon if they picked up aging big name players.

Didn't really happen in '06 when Ricky Williams was here.

[Will]

Didn't really happen in '06 when Ricky Williams was here.

In addition, many of the big-name signings the Argos made in the 70s blew up in their face.

[timlb01]

If the season ticket estimate is correct and they come out winning next year that will be successful. I cannot believe they are over 9k already. If they do achieve the 20k target it will be a very profitable year. Think about the merchandise they will be able to move next year! The atmosphere will be unreal. Cannot wait.

[R.J]

As mentioned before, the 9-10,000 number is for deposits not season tickets, of which doesn't include corporate sales as of yet, nor has the team even start their marketing push. IMO those are pretty solid numbers and will only get better, I think north of 15,000 season tickets is achievable.

[paulwoods13]

As mentioned before, the 9-10,000 number is for deposits not season tickets, of which doesn't include corporate sales as of yet, nor has the team even start their marketing push. IMO those are pretty solid numbers and will only get better, I think north of 15,000 season tickets is achievable.

"Pretty solid" meaning you think there is reason to believe they are valid? I'd like to think so, but so far it all seems to be sourced back to anecdotal reports emanating from so-and-so's ticket rep. Has the team itself made any sort of announcement? If not, seems to me it's still all speculation.

[R.J]

It sounds as though Milanovich is a real long shot, expected, but still sucks for me.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/terps/tracking-the-terps/bal-analysis-pep-hamilton-would-be-a-solid-hire-as-maryland-football-coach-20151130-story.html

[AngeloV]

It sounds as though Milanovich is a real long shot, expected, but still sucks for me.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/terps/tracking-the-terps/bal-analysis-pep-hamilton-would-be-a-solid-hire-as-maryland-football-coach-20151130-story.html

Good for me!!

[ArgoZ]

"Pretty solid" meaning you think there is reason to believe they are valid? I'd like to think so, but so far it all seems to be sourced back to anecdotal reports emanating from so-and-so's ticket rep. Has the team itself made any sort of announcement? If not, seems to me it's still all speculation.

I hate to be a pessimist too, however I have to agree. If the sales were that good, you would think the team would be all over the media, letting it known they are the hottest ticket in town. Maybe we will hear some updates after Jan 1.

[R.J]

I hate to be a pessimist too, however I have to agree. If the sales were that good, you would think the team would be all over the media, letting it known they are the hottest ticket in town. Maybe we will hear some updates after Jan 1.How is selling 9-10,000 deposits equal the hottest ticket in town ?
Especially when you have a seating capacity of 27,600 (not including suites and the lounge). I'm sure once seasons tickets are actually sold and it's a high number, we'll hear about it, but 10,000 deposits is nothing to crow about.

[ArgoRavi]

Good for me!!

Me too! I know that the money is good in the NCAA but it is even more of an intense 12 month per year job than head coaching in the CFL is with all of the recruiting that they have to do in college. Milanovich has given every indication over his years in Toronto that the Argos job suits his lifestyle perfectly.

[ArgoZ]

How is selling 9-10,000 deposits equal the hottest ticket in town ?
Especially when you have a seating capacity of 27,600 (not including suites and the lounge). I'm sure once seasons tickets are actually sold and it's a high number, we'll hear about it, but 10,000 deposits is nothing to crow about.

Well, it's a figure of speech and sales pitch, however;
10000 season tickets (deposits) with a presumed increase of 200%+ in only what, 2 months? Done with little marketing or even official ownership yet! Sounds to good to be true. Hope it's true, but hard to believe it's going to be that easy.

[R.J]

Well, it's a figure of speech and sales pitch, however;
10000 season tickets (deposits) with a presumed increase of 200%+ in only what, 2 months? Done with little marketing or even official ownership yet! Sounds to good to be true. Hope it's true, but hard to believe it's going to be that easy.
Again though it's only deposits, so at least to me it doesn't sound too far fetched and I was lead to believe the Argos season ticket base was 5,000 this season not 3,000. Either way, we have to wait and see.

[KCargosfan]

How is selling 9-10,000 deposits equal the hottest ticket in town ?
Especially when you have a seating capacity of 27,600 (not including suites and the lounge). I'm sure once seasons tickets are actually sold and it's a high number, we'll hear about it, but 10,000 deposits is nothing to crow about.

Come on, don't be the wet blanket. This news came out in late November, more than 6 months before training camp even opens, so it's understandable why people are getting a bit excited about it.

[paulwoods13]

Come on, don't be the wet blanket. This news came out in late November, more than 6 months before training camp even opens, so it's understandable why people are getting a bit excited about it.

But it's not "news," it's speculation based on unnamed sources who are not necessarily in position to know and who have a vested interest in putting out a positive spin. And it's $50 deposits, not $1,000 sales. If and when the team itself, i.e. Copeland, Moore or some other named exec, announces a sales figure there may be reason to celebrate. Until then let's not get carried away with the notion that we have magically solved our problems in this market.

[Double Dare]

But it's not "news," it's speculation based on unnamed sources who are not necessarily in position to know and who have a vested interest in putting out a positive spin. And it's $50 deposits, not $1,000 sales. If and when the team itself, i.e. Copeland, Moore or some other named exec, announces a sales figure there may be reason to celebrate. Until then let's not get carried away with the notion that we have magically solved our problems in this market. Yep, the higher you fly, the farther you fall.

[R.J]

Milo ain't going anywhere.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">W/ <a href="https://twitter.com/SIPeteThamel">@SIPeteThamel</a>, Michigan DC D.J. Durkin will be Maryland's new coach per source. <a href="https://t.co/TWztt7WtD8">https://t.co/TWztt7WtD8</a></p>&mdash; Thayer Evans (@ThayerEvansSI) <a href="https://twitter.com/ThayerEvansSI/status/672123594550349824">December 2, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
https://media0.giphy.com/media/t0Z9BBfVq6fG8/200.gif

[paulwoods13]

Great news (if and when it is confirmed)!

[gilthethrill]

Great news (if and when it is confirmed)!

Totally agree....Milanovich did great work under difficult circumstances for a couple seasons now....I think Maryland made the right choice...:)

[AngeloV]

Excellent news.

[OV Argo]

Drag; was hoping for some new blood / fresh CFL thinking.

Back to same old, standard look, predictable CFL offence; a Ricky Ray / Trevor Harris QB tandem may be able to run that quite well though; + throw in an experienced, proven DC = Argos should be able to compete for 1st in the East.

[R.J]

Drag; was hoping for some new blood / fresh CFL thinking.

Back to same old, standard look, predictable CFL offence; a Ricky Ray / Trevor Harris QB tandem may be able to run that quite well though; + throw in an experienced, proven DC = Argos should be able to compete for 1st in the East.
I don't see it, especially with Collaros coming back healthy next season and Ottawa will most likely keep most of their players and staff together.

[Wobbler]

Considering that half of the league is scheduled to enter free agency, it's hard to predict *anything* about next year. But at least our coaching staff appears to be solid.

[Scooter McCray]

I'm in the Milanovich camp. What he has done since arriving with no resources, burned down database that had to be rebuilt from scratch in year one in which he won us a GC, constantly poached assistant coaches, nomadic practice facilities, nomadic home stadiums, crap scheduling with 4 plus road swings in each of his seasons. What he has accomplished is remarkable. He should have been a finalist for coach of the year in 2015. I'm glad we get to keep him, but honestly Maryland wouldn't know a good thing if they banged it all night long.

[Argo57]

I'm in the Milanovich camp. What he has done since arriving with no resources, burned down database that had to be rebuilt from scratch in year one in which he won us a GC, constantly poached assistant coaches, nomadic practice facilities, nomadic home stadiums, crap scheduling with 4 plus road swings in each of his seasons. What he has accomplished is remarkable. He should have been a finalist for coach of the year in 2015. I'm glad we get to keep him, but honestly Maryland wouldn't know a good thing if they banged it all night long.

I like Milanovich but he has to hire an OC with some fresh ideas and allow him some latitude to put his stamp on how they run things, Brady is OC in name only IMO and regurgitates what Milanovich wants him to.
If the Argonauts falter in 2016 then that will be another story altogether, this franchise needs on field success to generate interest and momentum to rebuild the fanbase.

[R.J]

Considering that half of the league is scheduled to enter free agency, it's hard to predict *anything* about next year. But at least our coaching staff appears to be solid.
While I disagree with the idea of our coaching staff being solid, I do agree that with so many free agents, it's difficult to predict anything as of right now.


I like Milanovich but he has to hire an OC with some fresh ideas and allow him some latitude to put his stamp on how they run things, Brady is OC in name only IMO and regurgitates what Milanovich wants him to.
If the Argonauts falter in 2016 then that will be another story altogether, this franchise needs on field success to generate interest and momentum to rebuild the fanbase.
I also like Milo as the Head Coach, but I don't see him ever fully giving up the offense. I believe Brady was calling the plays this season, which wasn't the case for all of 2014, but Milanovich and Himebauch are involved in the game planning.

[AngeloV]

I also like Milo as the Head Coach, but I don't see him ever fully giving up the offense. I believe Brady was calling the plays this season, which wasn't the case for all of 2014, but Milanovich and Himebauch are involved in the game planning.

I believe a head coach is always involved in the game planning, specifically on the side of the ball that is their expertise. The only coach to me that was not was Pinball, and let's be honest, he was just there as a figure head and inspiration to the players.

[R.J]

I believe a head coach is always involved in the game planning, specifically on the side of the ball that is their expertise. The only coach to me that was not was Pinball, and let's be honest, he was just there as a figure head and inspiration to the players.
Which seemed to work for Pinner. I agree with your post for the most part, but it seems as though Huf was pretty hands off with the offense in Calgary the last couple of years, Campbell also seems to let Nelson do his job, and O'Shea................ okay maybe not the best example.

[JBarnsley]

The Argos should bring in a solid kicker next year to back up Waters in case he gets injured... I am a kicker and I honestly don't understand how you can be so injury prone. And what ever happened with Nick Boyd? The guy was a solid kicker in the CIS.

[AngeloV]

The Argos should bring in a solid kicker next year to back up Waters in case he gets injured... I am a kicker and I honestly don't understand how you can be so injury prone. And what ever happened with Nick Boyd? The guy was a solid kicker in the CIS.

To be honest, I would love to see the Argos go after both Medlock and Lirim Hajrullahu. I like the thought of having separate guys handle the punting vs place kicking, and the fact that both can do either protects you if 1 goes down in game. I think Hajrullahu is going to be a great dual purpose kicker, but just had a sophomore slump.

[paulwoods13]

The official FA list is out. Here is ours along with my list of priorities for re-signing:

ADJEI, Natey*
AGNEW, Vincent
ALIX, Anthony*
CUMMINGS, Euclid yes
FOLEY, Ricky*
GABRIEL, Jermaine* yes
GILLANDERS, Brendan* yes
GREEN, Isaiah
GREENWOOD, Cory* yes
HARRIS, Trevor yes
Jones, GREGORY yes
KEEPING, Jeff
KING, Jarriel
LAING, Cleyon* yes
MILES, Thomas* yes
MITCHELL, Scott*
OKPALAUGO, Tristan yes
OWENS, Chad
PALARDY, Justin*
RAY, Ricky yes
ROBINSON, Zander* yes
SMITH, Wayne*
STALA, Dave*
STEELE, Curtis
UNDERWOOD, Brandon
VEGA, Jason
WATERS, Swayze yes
WHITAKER, Brandon yes

Some of these guys are going to have multiple options so I hope Kilmer/Bell are willing to give JB a fatter wallet. Interesting that Kackert is not a FA.

[JBarnsley]

To be honest, I would love to see the Argos go after both Medlock and Lirim Hajrullahu. I like the thought of having separate guys handle the punting vs place kicking, and the fact that both can do either protects you if 1 goes down in game. I think Hajrullahu is going to be a great dual purpose kicker, but just had a sophomore slump. I do not like Lirum as a punter. Medlock is the best placekicker in the CFL and arguably top 15 in pro football period. What the Argos should do is bring in a dedicated punter or placekicker and let Waters focus on one or the other. I prefer the two kicker system because it produces the best results. The most consistent kicking game in the CFL has been Calgary which uses that very system. I can tell you from first hand experience that the Canadian mentality of having one guy handle everything is foolish because one skill takes away from the other, meaning you can never be outstanding at one just good at both.

[AngeloV]

I do not like Lirum as a punter. Medlock is the best placekicker in the CFL and arguably top 15 in pro football period. What the Argos should do is bring in a dedicated punter or placekicker and let Waters focus on one or the other. I prefer the two kicker system because it produces the best results. The most consistent kicking game in the CFL has been Calgary which uses that very system. I can tell you from first hand experience that the Canadian mentality of having one guy handle everything is foolish because one skill takes away from the other, meaning you can never be outstanding at one just good at both.

I love Lirum as a punter. IMO, he is the best in the league at punting to the sidelines. I'll give up a yard or 2 on punting average for this any day. Nothing drives me more nuts than a punter with a big leg, punting straight down the middle of the field giving options to the returner.

[Argo]

To be honest, I would love to see the Argos go after both Medlock and Lirim Hajrullahu.

Agree.

[R.J]

Lirim had a real bad year place kicking, if he can find his game again, I'd take him in a heartbeat.

[AngeloV]

Lirim had a real bad year place kicking, if he can find his game again, I'd take him in a heartbeat.

That's how I feel too. By having him just punt to start puts less pressure on him overall, and then perhaps he can be looked at for both jobs in a couple of years. Love to get Medlock back, but would he come back for a 3rd time?

[R.J]

That's how I feel too. By having him just punt to start puts less pressure on him overall, and then perhaps he can be looked at for both jobs in a couple of years. Love to get Medlock back, but would he come back for a 3rd time?
Unless an American can perform all 3 jobs, I don't see the need to waste a roster spot.

[AngeloV]

Unless an American can perform all 3 jobs, I don't see the need to waste a roster spot.

I don't think it's a waste of a spot. Maybe when they had 37 man rosters, but I really don't think it's an issue at all with 44 dressed every game.

[R.J]

I don't think it's a waste of a spot. Maybe when they had 37 man rosters, but I really don't think it's an issue at all with 44 dressed every game.
Personally, I'd like to see the league go to 40 (and crack down on the fake injured lists), but that's a topic of discussion for another day and thread.


side note : Kerwin Bell isn't going to be retained over at Jackonsville University, wonder if he'd be willing to coach in the CFL.

[Scooter McCray]

Personally, I'd like to see the league go to 40 (and crack down on the fake injured lists), but that's a topic of discussion for another day and thread.


side note : Kerwin Bell isn't going to be retained over at Jackonsville University, wonder if he'd be willing to coach in the CFL.

The day he went off on of all people Pinball on the sidelines at Ivor Wynne was the day he punched his ticket out of the CFL forever. That and sacking himself after a TD.

[Argo57]

The day he went off on of all people Pinball on the sidelines at Ivor Wynne was the day he punched his ticket out of the CFL forever. That and sacking himself after a TD.

No Wayne Newton lookalikes need apply!!!!

[R.J]

The day he went off on of all people Pinball on the sidelines at Ivor Wynne was the day he punched his ticket out of the CFL forever. That and sacking himself after a TD.
I'm not saying that I'd want him here or anything and I'm more than well aware of his history in the CFL, but he had a pretty good coaching record down south. Leave no stone unturned, so to speak.

Side note : I'm actually really interested in what happens in Saskatchewan. Copeland is the current WR's coach over there and IMO would be a major upgrade over Elizondo. McDiarmid potentially becoming available is also something I think the Argonauts should keep their eye on.

[Argo57]

In addition, many of the big-name signings the Argos made in the 70s blew up in their face.

Yes, the likes of Doyle Orange, Terry Metcalf and Bruce Clark quickly realized that the CFL was no pushover back in the day.
Salary cap has pretty much eliminated any possibility of these type of signings.

[doubleblue]

Yes, the likes of Doyle Orange, Terry Metcalf and Bruce Clark quickly realized that the CFL was no pushover back in the day.
Salary cap has pretty much eliminated any possibility of these type of signings.


Those guys did play well for the Argos though. Just didn't have a good surrounding cast.

[Argo57]

Those guys did play well for the Argos though. Just didn't have a good surrounding cast.

They were alright but didn't live up to their advanced billing, they rarely can.

[JBarnsley]

They were alright but didn't live up to their advanced billing, they rarely can. Honestly even if you brought a guy like Keenan Allen in I do not think he would be the best statistical receiver in the league, maybe not even top 5. Same goes for OBJ, Calvin Johnson, etc... I am sure they would be top 3 guys on any team, but no guarantee they would be any better than that. I do think the Ricky Williams rule was a huge mistake because the CFL is missing out on players like Josh Gordon, for petty things while the wife beaters and real criminals get a slap on the wrist and stay in the NFL. Wish the Argos could snag Gordon.

[OV Argo]

They were alright but didn't live up to their advanced billing, they rarely can.

Sorry - Clark was a monster on the Argos D-line - he then went on the NFL and made all-pro there; and Metcalf was outstanding / did all he could on a $hi**y offence. Was Doyle Orange all that big an NFL prospect when the Argos got him ?

[Argo57]

Honestly even if you brought a guy like Keenan Allen in I do not think he would be the best statistical receiver in the league, maybe not even top 5. Same goes for OBJ, Calvin Johnson, etc... I am sure they would be top 3 guys on any team, but no guarantee they would be any better than that. I do think the Ricky Williams rule was a huge mistake because the CFL is missing out on players like Josh Gordon, for petty things while the wife beaters and real criminals get a slap on the wrist and stay in the NFL. Wish the Argos could snag Gordon.

I periodically look up some of the guys the Argonauts and other teams sign and many have "checkered" pasts including domestic violence, personally I would steer clear of these players but pressure to win and succeed often overrules common sense.

[argos1873]

The day he went off on of all people Pinball on the sidelines at Ivor Wynne was the day he punched his ticket out of the CFL forever. That and sacking himself after a TD.

Ouch!


http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/argos-celebration-fail.gif

[Argo57]

Sorry - Clark was a monster on the Argos D-line - he then went on the NFL and made all-pro there; and Metcalf was outstanding / did all he could on a $hi**y offence. Was Doyle Orange all that big an NFL prospect when the Argos got him ?

The Argos were atrocious back then so your point is valid but to be honest you get as much pr more production from well scouted college prospects than NFL retreads of overhyped high end draft picks (Tom Cousineau, Vince Ferragamo) etc.
Point being no need to overspend and buy a big name it rarely justifies the expense.
This also includes the coaching ranks OV including the Argo era we are discussing, big NFL legend types like Forrest Gregg and Willie Wood failed miserably because the NFL game planning and mentality simply didn't work up here, it took an unheralded defensive coach from Ottawa to turn our fortunes around.

[argos1873]

I periodically look up some of the guys the Argonauts and other teams sign and many have "checkered" pasts including domestic violence, personally I would steer clear of these players but pressure to win and succeed often overrules common sense.

If you look at the demographics of football players coming out of the United States, there's a huge number of players who come from some pretty crappy backgrounds. Crappy backgrounds often lead to questionable life choices, even if you are successful at a certain thing. I'm not saying teams should look the other way, but if they all did there would be a lot of overlooked skilled players who have made questionable life choices. I'm not one to say where the line should be drawn, but if you want skilled football players you will probably draw the line lower, than say a bank would if they wanted a skilled manager or something along those lines.

[ArgoRavi]

Sorry - Clark was a monster on the Argos D-line - he then went on the NFL and made all-pro there; and Metcalf was outstanding / did all he could on a $hi**y offence. Was Doyle Orange all that big an NFL prospect when the Argos got him ?

I agree, OV. Metcalf had a great attitude as an Argo but he had a lousy o-line which hampered him. Nevertheless, he played decently for the Argos. Clark was a monster and went onto a long NFL career after departing Toronto following the '81 season. Until Rocket Ismail, he was the last of the big name NFL players/draft choices who chose the Argos over the NFL.

[Argo57]

I agree, OV. Metcalf had a great attitude as an Argo but he had a lousy o-line which hampered him. Nevertheless, he played decently for the Argos. Clark was a monster and went onto a long NFL career after departing Toronto following the '81 season. Until Rocket Ismail, he was the last of the big name NFL players/draft choices who chose the Argos over the NFL.

Back in the 1960's and 70's before the NFL benefited from huge TV revenue the CFL was financially a viable option for many American players, also the CAD$ and USD$ were basically at par (or the Canuck $ was actually higher for a time), that has all changed through the late seventies to today.
It amazes me that the talent level is as high as it is considering the salaries that many of these guys make and the punishment that they put their bodies through especially when our currency sits as it does currently.

[paulwoods13]

I agree, OV. Metcalf had a great attitude as an Argo but he had a lousy o-line which hampered him. Nevertheless, he played decently for the Argos. Clark was a monster and went onto a long NFL career after departing Toronto following the '81 season. Until Rocket Ismail, he was the last of the big name NFL players/draft choices who chose the Argos over the NFL.

Yes. And as OV said, Orange was not considered a "big-name" signing and he actually did perform, racking up 1,000 yards in 1975.

[timlb01]

Yes. And as OV said, Orange was not considered a "big-name" signing and he actually did perform, racking up 1,000 yards in 1975.

Off topic a little bit but does anyone remember the exhibition games the CFL teams played against the NFL teams? If so what was it like? I always thought that someone now should come out like a modern day Leo Cahill and publicly challenge an NFL team to play the Argos to a Canadian rule exhibition game. I think people would be surprised how the different type of game could and possibly would lead to an Argo victory. It would be a gutsy thing to try today and would create a lot of publicity. I always wished the 1997 Argos would have played any NFL team. That team would have beat anyone IMO.

[OV Argo]

The Argos were atrocious back then so your point is valid but to be honest you get as much pr more production from well scouted college prospects than NFL retreads of overhyped high end draft picks (Tom Cousineau, Vince Ferragamo) etc.
Point being no need to overspend and buy a big name it rarely justifies the expense.
This also includes the coaching ranks OV including the Argo era we are discussing, big NFL legend types like Forrest Gregg and Willie Wood failed miserably because the NFL game planning and mentality simply didn't work up here, it took an unheralded defensive coach from Ottawa to turn our fortunes around.

Well, as you've pointed out the CFL just cannot compete with the NFL anymore for top name US college ball stars that are about to turn pro; and yeah - some big name NCAA stars might not be a fit for the CFL anyways, just like some ex-NFL stars don\t exactly dominate the CFL either. But that doesn't mean that all US ball stars should be ignored by the CFL IF they were available and willing to sign or that most of them would bomb. Bruce Clark and Tom Cousineau were examples of top NFL draft material who chose the CFL 1st AND were dominant or outstanding players in the CFL - i'd take those type of guys on my CFL team any day - hype or no hype - but signing big name NCAA or ex-NFL stars as a main focus of building a CFL team was always stupid (and the Argos historically have been the most guilty CFL team in that regard - i guess Leo's 71 and on Argos were built mostly that way back when it was possible); not in the equation anymore though.

[JBarnsley]

Off topic a little bit but does anyone remember the exhibition games the CFL teams played against the NFL teams? If so what was it like? I always thought that someone now should come out like a modern day Leo Cahill and publicly challenge an NFL team to play the Argos to a Canadian rule exhibition game. I think people would be surprised how the different type of game could and possibly would lead to an Argo victory. It would be a gutsy thing to try today and would create a lot of publicity. I always wished the 1997 Argos would have played any NFL team. That team would have beat anyone IMO. NFL would have too much to lose. That is likely why the NHL doesn't play the KHL anymore after they lost the last game they played in 2011. Pro is pro, there isn't much of a drop off in talent when everyone is training to be the best they can be.

[Argo57]

Well, as you've pointed out the CFL just cannot compete with the NFL anymore for top name US college ball stars that are about to turn pro; and yeah - some big name NCAA stars might not be a fit for the CFL anyways, just like some ex-NFL stars don\t exactly dominate the CFL either. But that doesn't mean that all US ball stars should be ignored by the CFL IF they were available and willing to sign or that most of them would bomb. Bruce Clark and Tom Cousineau were examples of top NFL draft material who chose the CFL 1st AND were dominant or outstanding players in the CFL - i'd take those type of guys on my CFL team any day - hype or no hype - but signing big name NCAA or ex-NFL stars as a main focus of building a CFL team was always stupid (and the Argos historically have been the most guilty CFL team in that regard - i guess Leo's 71 and on Argos were built mostly that way back when it was possible); not in the equation anymore though.

One guy OB missed the boat on big time was Sam Mills, remember watching him during pre season 1982 and you could see the guy was a stud linebacker, shocked when he was cut I believe in favour of John Pointer (Paul may be able to verify if my memory is correct) alway wondered "what if" every time I saw him play in the NFL, doubtful he would have stayed here long term with his talent but you never know, the other linebacker that you could see was destined for CFL stardom was Willi Pless in 1986 (to which I had a customized #32 PLESS jersey made).

[1argoholic]

I liked Doyle Orange so much that we named one of our Guinea Pigs while we were on Van Isle by his name. He was obviouly orange so the name worked. He was a great little character. I used to line his big enclosure with news paper and then wood stove pellets. He had a knack of ripping sayings or titles perfectly from the papers. He ripped Love Of Food, While Supplies Last,See Coupon and Professional Investment Guidance. I wrote them down to remember those great funny times. My little tangent.

[ArgoRavi]

One guy OB missed the boat on big time was Sam Mills, remember watching him during pre season 1982 and you could see the guy was a stud linebacker, shocked when he was cut I believe in favour of John Pointer (Paul may be able to verify if my memory is correct) alway wondered "what if" every time I saw him play in the NFL, doubtful he would have stayed here long term with his talent but you never know, the other linebacker that you could see was destined for CFL stardom was Willi Pless in 1986 (to which I had a customized #32 PLESS jersey made).

Were the Argos looking at Mills as a middle linebacker? I am pretty sure that is where Pointer played. Mills might have been undersized for that position. If there were 44 player rosters back in '82, Mills likely would have made the team. If he had made it with the Argos, he may very well have stayed in the CFL long-term as he was considered quite undersized for the NFL. Interesting that you remember seeing Mills play for the Argos in the '82 preseason. The one guy I recall from that preseason who made a good impression was Sammy Greene but he too did not make the Argos that year. He would have an impact in B.C. a year later but, as he admitted recently, drugs derailed his career as he was released by B.C. late in the 1983 season.

[Argo57]

Were the Argos looking at Mills as a middle linebacker? I am pretty sure that is where Pointer played. Mills might have been undersized for that position. If there were 44 player rosters back in '82, Mills likely would have made the team. If he had made it with the Argos, he may very well have stayed in the CFL long-term as he was considered quite undersized for the NFL. Interesting that you remember seeing Mills play for the Argos in the '82 preseason. The one guy I recall from that preseason who made a good impression was Sammy Greene but he too did not make the Argos that year. He would have an impact in B.C. a year later but, as he admitted recently, drugs derailed his career as he was released by B.C. late in the 1983 season.

I believe so Ravi, but not 100% sure as a lot of time has passed, Pointer was gone by 1983 when Darryl Nicholson took over at MLB, the Argonauts had several decent LB's come and go, Tim Berryman and Campbell Hackney the latter who's career effectively ended when he hit a bad seam in the awful AstroTurf at the Big O against the Concorde and blew out his knee and of course an all time favourite Don Moen was at the beginning of his storied career.

[Will]

Interesting what-if with Mills. Remember that the Saints stunk for the first twenty years of their history and only rose from that ineptitude because of a great LB corps that Mills played in. Maybe they would've been the 'aints that much longer.

[OV Argo]

One guy OB missed the boat on big time was Sam Mills, remember watching him during pre season 1982 and you could see the guy was a stud linebacker, shocked when he was cut I believe in favour of John Pointer (Paul may be able to verify if my memory is correct) alway wondered "what if" every time I saw him play in the NFL, doubtful he would have stayed here long term with his talent but you never know, the other linebacker that you could see was destined for CFL stardom was Willi Pless in 1986 (to which I had a customized #32 PLESS jersey made).


Pless was one of those guys that the NFL super-experts were going to write-off due to size concerns even though he was a star college ball LB; and thus - tailor made for the CFL - and what a player he was = awesome defensive player. The CFL can still look for and sign some of these outstanding college ball players the NFL is going to ignore - JC Sherritt maybe similar now - and under-sized LB the NFL would have no interest in, but a great play-making LB who is a fit in the CFL. Pless started off at OLB in the CFL though and that is where he was an amazing force for the Argos & BC; the CFL trend now is to play a lot of smaller converted safeties at OLB - for coverage mostly; Sherritt is an under-sized MLB.

[Argo57]

Pless was one of those guys that the NFL super-experts were going to write-off due to size concerns even though he was a star college ball LB; and thus - tailor made for the CFL - and what a player he was = awesome defensive player. The CFL can still look for and sign some of these outstanding college ball players the NFL is going to ignore - JC Sherritt maybe similar now - and under-sized LB the NFL would have no interest in, but a great play-making LB who is a fit in the CFL. Pless started off at OLB in the CFL though and that is where he was an amazing force for the Argos & BC; the CFL trend now is to play a lot of smaller converted safeties at OLB - for coverage mostly; Sherritt is an under-sized MLB.

Pless was smaller in stature but a dynamite (technically sound) tackler.

[ArgoRavi]

I believe so Ravi, but not 100% sure as a lot of time has passed, Pointer was gone by 1983 when Darryl Nicholson took over at MLB, the Argonauts had several decent LB's come and go, Tim Berryman and Campbell Hackney the latter who's career effectively ended when he hit a bad seam in the awful AstroTurf at the Big O against the Concorde and blew out his knee and of course an all time favourite Don Moen was at the beginning of his storied career.

IIRC, Moen, Rick Mohr and Rob Smith were all acquired from the Lions for future considerations following the '82 preseason. That deal worked out well for the Argos!

[Argo57]

IIRC, Moen, Rick Mohr and Rob Smith were all acquired from the Lions for future considerations following the '82 preseason. That deal worked out well for the Argos!

Absolutely Ravi, especially since Moen was a DB coming out of college, what a find!

[gilthethrill]

Interesting what-if with Mills. Remember that the Saints stunk for the first twenty years of their history and only rose from that ineptitude because of a great LB corps that Mills played in. Maybe they would've been the 'aints that much longer.

At least he won a couple of Championships in the USFL...great player who left us too soon.

[Argo]

Off topic a little bit but does anyone remember the exhibition games the CFL teams played against the NFL teams? If so what was it like? I always thought that someone now should come out like a modern day Leo Cahill and publicly challenge an NFL team to play the Argos to a Canadian rule exhibition game. I think people would be surprised how the different type of game could and possibly would lead to an Argo victory. It would be a gutsy thing to try today and would create a lot of publicity. I always wished the 1997 Argos would have played any NFL team. That team would have beat anyone IMO.

Yes, the 1997 Argos + Canadian rules vs. a good NFL team (not one that league's perennial putrid franchises) would have been interesting.

[doubleblue]

Yes, the 1997 Argos + Canadian rules vs. a good NFL team (not one that league's perennial putrid franchises) would have been interesting.

Flutie was almost unstoppable in 97. He really had everything figured out didn't he. Don Mathews had enough sense to let him adlib and call his own plays.
Always remember an interview of Canadian NFL kicker Klaus Wilmsmeyer during the winter after the Doug Flutie led Argos 1997 Grey Cup win. Wilmsmeyer had been on a Super Bowl team with the 49er's. He was asked how he thought the Super Bowl Champs would do against the Argos using CFL rules. He said with Flutie playing QB he wouldn't like their (NFL) chances. The Players and Coaches know.

[ArgoRavi]

Flutie was almost unstoppable in 97. He really had everything figured out didn't he. Don Mathews had enough sense to let him adlib and call his own plays.
Always remember an interview of Canadian NFL kicker Klaus Wilmsmeyer during the winter after the Doug Flutie led Argos 1997 Grey Cup win. Wilmsmeyer had been on a Super Bowl team with the 49er's. He was asked how he thought the Super Bowl Champs would do against the Argos using CFL rules. He said with Flutie playing QB he wouldn't like their (NFL) chances. The Players and Coaches know.

Everyone talks about how good the 1995 Baltimore Stallions were and they use the measure of how many of those players went to the NFL. However, the '97 Argos match up just as well in that area and were at least as good IMO. It is really a shame that more Torontonians did not appreciate that team although many became Flutie fans when he went to the Bills.

[OV Argo]

Everyone talks about how good the 1995 Baltimore Stallions were and they use the measure of how many of those players went to the NFL. However, the '97 Argos match up just as well in that area and were at least as good IMO. It is really a shame that more Torontonians did not appreciate that team although many became Flutie fans when he went to the Bills.


Using how many players went on to the NFL as a measuring stick for great CFL teams is kinda iffy and wannbe like IMO; I get the notion but great CFL teams are great because they were complete and well coached teams with rosters full of CFL veteran or CFL skills players; plus, as we've heard many times on these forums, NFL success or skill-set is zero guarantee a player can do well in the CFL - with so many examples.

The Stallions were IMO a great CFL team coached by the Don; however - they have also IMO been over-rated by some and with only one GC win (1 for 2 in GCs = 50% = hardly dominant and their win was in gale force wind (perfect storm for them) conditions that totally affected Calgary's Flutie led pass attack in that game); and that Stallions team had an average to maybe more like mediocre CFL calibre receiving corps with only vet Chris Armstrong as a proven pro or CFL receiver - really great football teams do not have weak areas at all - though a great run game with Pringle & Ham masked that; very good D and great STs on that Stallions team too (punt return TD + blocked punt TD in their GC win). However - IMO the 97 Argos were quite a bit better IMO and not "as least as good".

[R.J]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If Dickenson goes to <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Stampeders?src=hash">#Stampeders</a>, <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> or <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BCLions?src=hash">#BCLions</a> could be landing spot for Mark Kilam.</p>&mdash; Kirk Penton (@PentonKirk) <a href="https://twitter.com/PentonKirk/status/673732536258793472">December 7, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Argo57]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If Dickenson goes to <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Stampeders?src=hash">#Stampeders</a>, <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> or <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BCLions?src=hash">#BCLions</a> could be landing spot for Mark Kilam.</p>&mdash; Kirk Penton (@PentonKirk) <a href="https://twitter.com/PentonKirk/status/673732536258793472">December 7, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Would be a good hire for the Argonauts, and continue the upgrade of our coaching staff.

[argolio]

I thought the Argos cut Mills in 83, not 82.

As for the Stallions, I think they deserve to be called dominant because of how successful they were after starting from absolutely nothing. They also won a CFL record 18 regular season & playoff games, and closed 1995 with (a record?) 13 straight wins.

[AngeloV]

As for the Stallions, I think they deserve to be called dominant because of how successful they were after starting from absolutely nothing. They also won a CFL record 18 regular season & playoff games, and closed 1995 with (a record?) 13 straight wins.

Oh oh....Now you've done it.

[OV Argo]

I thought the Argos cut Mills in 83, not 82.

As for the Stallions, I think they deserve to be called dominant because of how successful they were after starting from absolutely nothing. They also won a CFL record 18 regular season & playoff games, and closed 1995 with (a record?) 13 straight wins.


I believe we`ve had the discussion here before about all-time great CFL winning / GC Champ teams - lots of great teams - the Esks dynasty team, other repeat Champs (68/69 Ottawa. 96/97 Argos. 61/62 Bombers); the Ticats of the early 60s played in 6 out of 7 GCs between 61 & 67 !!!

Other one year GC Champ teams belong in the discussion too IMO; Baltimore Stallions of 94/95 are up there - top 10 maybe, but I believe there are a good number of quite a bit better CFL all-time teams. There are some great teams that seemed to be "dominant" in the regular season (89 Esks were 16 & 2 and had a 300 plus points margin for/against record that year, but choked in the play-offs ; the 70 Sask Rough Riders were 14 & 2 but lost in the play-offs) - IMO - you need to win the GC in that season to belong in an all-time great team category here.

. eg. the 84 Blue Bombers won 2 play-off games and the GC - with margins of victory of 35, 17 and 30 points in those 3 consecutive play-off games; they had 6 players on offence alone on the 84 CFL all-star team (plus two 1000 yd. receivers that season that were not named CFL all-stars), and another 3 on the all-star defence.

85 & 64 BC Lions, 77 Als, 91 Argos (Dunigan, Pinball, the Rocket, DK Smith, Masotti, Shultz, Ferrone, Beckstead & Prunster on the same offence!) = examples of other great (one year winner) CFL GC teams, and all better than that Baltimore team IMO. Matter of opinion/debate of course and maybe some of the younger fans who weigh in on this topic are not old enough to remember the older teams.

[R.J]

Kilam staying with Stamps and all of Esks coaching staff moving over to Riders with Jones, I'm hoping the Argonauts at least speak with McDiarmid about coming over as ST's co-ordinator.

EDIT : Forgot to mention, once confirmed that the Esks staff is moving with Jones, it would mean Jermaine Copeland and Avon Cobourne become available, two more names I'd like to see brought into the Argonauts fold. Coepalnd take over Elizondo's job as WR's coach and Cobourne take over for Ierullo as Rb's coach. Imagine Dillon Campbell learning from Cobourne, Kackert and Whitaker.

[paulwoods13]

Kilam staying with Stamps and all of Esks coaching staff moving over to Riders with Jones, I'm hoping the Argonauts at least speak with McDiarmid about coming over as ST's co-ordinator.

EDIT : Forgot to mention, once confirmed that the Esks staff is moving with Jones, it would mean Jermaine Copeland and Avon Cobourne become available, two more names I'd like to see brought into the Argonauts fold. Coepalnd take over Elizondo's job as WR's coach and Cobourne take over for Ierullo as Rb's coach. Imagine Dillon Campbell learning from Cobourne, Kackert and Whitaker.

Works for me. I'm glad other teams' staffs are the ones getting raided for a change.

[ArgoRavi]

Works for me. I'm glad other teams' staffs are the ones getting raided for a change.

LOL! Of course, a lot of the raiding seems to be happening with coaches who were in the Argos' fold not too long ago.

[R.J]

Works for me. I'm glad other teams' staffs are the ones getting raided for a change.
If it were up to me, I'd like to see the Argonauts coaching staff look something like this : HC - Milo, OC & Asst. HC - Himebauch, DC - Stubler, STC - McDiarmid, OL coach - Preston, RB coach - Cobourne, WR coach - Copeland, Dline coach - Sinclair (Riders), LB coach - Kuharchek, DB coach - Wingate. Stubler, like Burke seems to like being the db coach as well, so if that were to happen, find a way to keep Wingate around. If Kackert does end retiring, name him strength & conditioning coach, along with offensive assistant or something like that.

I'd also like to see Barker bring in one of or both Mike Miller and Ken Moll as asst. gm, director of U.S Scouting and director of player personnel, we have owners with money now, let's spend some...................... the Riders are.

[ArgoRavi]

If it were up to me, I'd like to see the Argonauts coaching staff look something like this : HC - Milo, OC & Asst. HC - Himebauch, DC - Stubler, STC - McDiarmid, OL coach - Preston, RB coach - Cobourne, WR coach - Copeland, Dline coach - Sinclair (Riders), LB coach - Kuharchek, DB coach - Wingate. Stubler, like Burke seems to like being the db coach as well, so if that were to happen, find a way to keep Wingate around. If Kackert does end retiring, name him strength & conditioning coach, along with offensive assistant or something like that.

I'd also like to see Barker bring in one of or both Mike Miller and Ken Moll as asst. gm, director of U.S Scouting and director of player personnel, we have owners with money now, let's spend some...................... the Riders are.

I would be surprised to see Jordan Younger not be part of the coaching staff under Stubler although Stubler is the one who sent him to Edmonton in '08.

[R.J]

I would be surprised to see Jordan Younger not be part of the coaching staff under Stubler although Stubler is the one who sent him to Edmonton in '08.
As you are probably already aware, I don't care for Younger, Brady and Elizondo.

[Fumblitis]

If it were up to me, I'd like to see the Argonauts coaching staff look something like this : HC - Milo, OC & Asst. HC - Himebauch, DC - Stubler, STC - McDiarmid, OL coach - Preston, RB coach - Cobourne, WR coach - Copeland, Dline coach - Sinclair (Riders), LB coach - Kuharchek, DB coach - Wingate. Stubler, like Burke seems to like being the db coach as well, so if that were to happen, find a way to keep Wingate around. If Kackert does end retiring, name him strength & conditioning coach, along with offensive assistant or something like that.

I'd also like to see Barker bring in one of or both Mike Miller and Ken Moll as asst. gm, director of U.S Scouting and director of player personnel, we have owners with money now, let's spend some...................... the Riders are.Just with Stubler and the possibility of McDiarmid is an instant upgrade. A few holes in the secondary and Oline and the Argos are on their way to being kings of the east.

[R.J]

Just with Stubler and the possibility of McDiarmid is an instant upgrade. A few holes in the secondary and Oline and the Argos are on their way to being kings of the east.
I agree. The East is for the taking.

[OV Argo]

I agree. The East is for the taking.


Hamilton - with Collaros, and if they retain a lot of their long list of FAs - will be tough - such a good defence and good STs too

Ottawa - perfect storm for them in the East this year and they deserve kudos, but Burris is a year older, their defence is only OK and their STs are nothing special

Als - Poop is clueless as a HC, Calvillo has little coaching experience, and their QB situation is iffy or at least young (i like both Cato & Bridge as very promising young QBs though); good D and good STs though

Argos - Ricky Ray healthy and back to form + retaining Harris would = a great 1-2 QB punch; need a better O-line though; Stubler could make for a better D but much better D-backfield is required; a healthy Waters to make for a strong kicking game would be a real plus


I see a decent dog-fight in the East, with maybe only the Als as possible weak bottom feeders.

VERY early off-season prediction:

Ticats the favorite for 1st, Argos should be able to take 2nd or maybe 1st; Ottawa will not have as good a record as last season

[Will]

I'm not even going to touch off-season predictions at this point given the amount of free agents that are out there.

[AngeloV]

I'm not even going to touch off-season predictions at this point given the amount of free agents that are out there.

Couldn't agree more.

[R.J]

I'm not even going to touch off-season predictions at this point given the amount of free agents that are out there.
I agree, way too many players available and the Argonauts could still make some more coaching staff changes etc, but I still maintain that the East is for the taking.

[ArgoRavi]

I'm not even going to touch off-season predictions at this point given the amount of free agents that are out there.

I agree but if I were a Bombers or Lions fan right now, I would be concerned. I know AV disagrees about Buono but I have doubts that blast from the past will work again for B.C. I see that Khari Jones will likely be offensive coordinator again and he didn't fare too well the last couple of times he had that job in B.C. Braley is saving money though so that is all that counts, I guess.

I was thinking last night that if I were a CFL free agent, would Winnipeg or B.C. be desirable locations right now?

[AngeloV]

I agree but if I were a Bombers or Lions fan right now, I would be concerned. I know AV disagrees about Buono but I have doubts that blast from the past will work again for B.C. I see that Khari Jones will likely be offensive coordinator again and he didn't fare too well the last couple of times he had that job in B.C. Braley is saving money though so that is all that counts, I guess.

I was thinking last night that if I were a CFL free agent, would Winnipeg or B.C. be desirable locations right now?

Bombers are a good team when Drew Willy plays the entire game. I know it hasn't happened much, but they usually win when he plays.

As for Buono, He did lead them to the championship his last season as HC. He is one of the best coaches in the history of the league, and probably works better in the duo role of GM and coach rather than simply GM. As GM coach, he brings in players that are suited to his coaching style, which might not have been a perfect fit for either Benevides or Tedford.

[R.J]

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/12/08/flurry-of-coaching-movement-during-cfl-offseason

They’re offering Trevor Harris under $200,000 if he ends up as the Argos backup, and he would get a good, but not great, salary if he’s the full-time guy. They could get him back on a one-year deal

[AngeloV]

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/12/08/flurry-of-coaching-movement-during-cfl-offseason

Let the complaints begin.

[Antwon]

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/12/08/flurry-of-coaching-movement-during-cfl-offseason

Hopefully this is just part of the negotiating.
They’re in the perfect position with Ray’s contract being incentive based. So they should offer Harris something very similar. The QB who starts the most makes the most money! It’s a better situation to be in than say Ottawa, paying Burris close to 500,000 and having no money for a decent backup.

But if they low ball Harris it tells me SM & JB are loyal to Ray and plan on riding him this year. I’ll wait until the dust settles on this before commenting on why I don’t like it.

At the very least hopefully Harris signs a one year deal.

[R.J]

New-look Argos won't change Barker's approach
http://www.cfl.ca/2015/12/09/new-look-argos-wont-change-barkers-approach/

[R.J]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Per sources: Expect the Argos to part ways w/ special teams coach Scott Downing. That&#39;s the hot coordinator opening job across the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a> now.</p>&mdash; Arash Madani (@ArashMadani) <a href="https://twitter.com/ArashMadani/status/675412159753551872">December 11, 2015</a></blockquote>
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I'm crossing my fingers the Argonauts go after McDiarmid.

[ArgoRavi]

<iframe style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: block; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: medium none;" class="twitter-tweet twitter-tweet-rendered" allowfullscreen="true" allowtransparency="true" scrolling="no" id="twitter-widget-0" frameborder="0"></iframe>
Per sources: Expect the Argos to part ways w/ special teams coach Scott Downing. That's the hot coordinator opening job across the #CFL (https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash) now.
— Arash Madani (@ArashMadani) December 11, 2015 (https://twitter.com/ArashMadani/status/675412159753551872)
<script async="" src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I'm crossing my fingers the Argonauts go after McDiarmid.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Mike (BabaBooey) Benevides get the specials teams coordinator job in Toronto.

[Fumblitis]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Mike (BabaBooey) Benevides get the specials teams coordinator job in Toronto.Or Bobby Dyce.

[Argo57]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Mike (BabaBooey) Benevides get the specials teams coordinator job in Toronto.

Interesting point Ravi, read in Pentons column that Benevides could land in Toronto or Edmonton, couldn't figure out the Toronto fit with Stubler just coming on board but never considered him as the STC, Edmonton to me makes more sense as they will be looking for a DC when they hire the new HC, or perhaps Benevides is in the running for the Edmonton HC job as well.

[R.J]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Mike (BabaBooey) Benevides get the specials teams coordinator job in Toronto.
Benevides hasn't coached ST's in quite some time, I think he's a good coach, but that's a bit of a concern for me.

Or Bobby Dyce.
Not a fan of Dyce as a Special Teams Co-ordinator, he's a good WR's coach and knows the CIS well, but IMO not a very good ST Co-ordinator. I think we could see Dyce back in Winnipeg.

Interesting point Ravi, read in Pentons column that Benevides could land in Toronto or Edmonton, couldn't figure out the Toronto fit with Stubler just coming on board but never considered him as the STC, Edmonton to me makes more sense as they will be looking for a DC when they hire the new HC, or perhaps Benevides is in the running for the Edmonton HC job as well.
Edmonton (Hervey) has asked Winnipeg for permission to speak with Barron Miles for the DC job. It's been speculated that Maas as HC/OC and Miles as DC are a package deal.

[R.J]

http://3downnation.com/2015/12/10/14974/

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/JDunk12">@JDunk12</a> - &quot;It hurts the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> chances of signing <a href="https://twitter.com/Trev_Harris">@Trev_Harris</a> by signing Ricky Ray to that deal.&quot; <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a> via <a href="https://twitter.com/3DownNation">@3DownNation</a></p>&mdash; CFL News (@CFL_News) <a href="https://twitter.com/CFL_News/status/676074338072817664">December 13, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/JDunk12">@JDunk12</a> - &quot;I think <a href="https://twitter.com/Trev_Harris">@Trev_Harris</a> makes a ton of sense for the <a href="https://twitter.com/MTLAlouettes">@MTLAlouettes</a>.&quot; <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AlsMTL?src=hash">#AlsMTL</a> via <a href="https://twitter.com/3DownNation">@3DownNation</a></p>&mdash; CFL News (@CFL_News) <a href="https://twitter.com/CFL_News/status/676075680589856768">December 13, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[OV Argo]

http://3downnation.com/2015/12/10/14974/

<iframe id="twitter-widget-0" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" class="twitter-tweet twitter-tweet-rendered" style="position: static; visibility: visible; display: block; width: 100%; height: 203.766px; padding: 0px; border: none; max-width: 500px; min-width: 220px; margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px;" data-tweet-id="676074338072817664" title="Twitter Tweet"></iframe>
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I guess Harris going to the Als might make some sense - they are unsettled at QB; but not sure Poop is going to open up the bank to sign Harris; LeFevour could return there, plus they have young guys Cato & Bridge as maybe very decent young QB prospects (Cato in particular IMO - he had a very good start and then faded some, with a lot of criticism from some it seems - but IMO he just has some very good QB skills in terms of passing arm accuracy + poise + some mobility; and Bridge has that gun for an arm and if he could ever learn to pick his spots to run with his size and mobility he might be something). Maybe Calvillo would want more of a pocket passer like Harris though ?
IF Harris departs the Argos that opens up a gaping hole at back-up IMO; wonder if Barker would think of giving Western's Will Finch a look?<iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: none;"></iframe>

[R.J]

I guess Harris going to the Als might make some sense - they are unsettled at QB; but not sure Poop is going to open up the bank to sign Harris; LeFevour could return there, plus they have young guys Cato & Bridge as maybe very decent young QB prospects (Cato in particular IMO - he had a very good start and then faded some, with a lot of criticism from some it seems - but IMO he just has some very good QB skills in terms of passing arm accuracy + poise + some mobility; and Bridge has that gun for an arm and if he could ever learn to pick his spots to run with his size and mobility he might be something). Maybe Calvillo would want more of a pocket passer like Harris though ?
IF Harris departs the Argos that opens up a gaping hole at back-up IMO; wonder if Barker would think of giving Western's Will Finch a look?
Gaping hole is a bit strong, the Argonauts have Fajardo and Kilgore. Let's be honest, we saw very little of Harris prior to 2015 to know what he could do and Harris worked out pretty well I suppose (I'm not a fan). Milanovich is also quite high on Kilgore. Will Finch is a good prospect IMO, whether or not he gets a legit shot is something else entirely.

[Argo]

Gaping hole is a bit strong, the Argonauts have Fajardo and Kilgore. Let's be honest, we saw very little of Harris prior to 2015 to know what he could do and Harris worked out pretty well I suppose (I'm not a fan). Milanovich is also quite high on Kilgore. Will Finch is a good prospect IMO, whether or not he gets a legit shot is something else entirely.

If Ray struggles (unlikely, assuming he fully recovers before opening day) or is injured again (as we've seen, many CFL quarterbacks sustain injuries these days) failure to retain Harris will prove to be very uncomfortable for the Argonauts.

The drop in Harris stock on this exchange is something to behold and I don't understand it - there was a lot of good before Harris (and the entire bloody team) flat-lined near the end of the season.

BTW, I don't for more than a second believe that there'll be a truly open competition for starting QB in 2016.

[AngeloV]

Harris hit a wall about the same time his agent was reportedly suggesting he will be looking to be the highest paid QB in the league in 2016. That was a lot of pressure to put on a first year starter, and perhaps the perception that he couldn't handle that pressure has really hurt his stock. I said before his last 2 starts that there was no way in the world he would see 300k for his salary. If he chooses to leave, I'm comfortable with McPherson as #2 for now. I actually like the idea of having a QB with different skill sets as the back up.

[Will]

Harris hit a wall about the same time his agent was reportedly suggesting he will be looking to be the highest paid QB in the league in 2016. That was a lot of pressure to put on a first year starter, and perhaps the perception that he couldn't handle that pressure has really hurt his stock. I said before his last 2 starts that there was no way in the world he would see 300k for his salary. If he chooses to leave, I'm comfortable with McPherson as #2 for now. I actually like the idea of having a QB with different skill sets as the back up.

I'm not comfortable at all with McPherson as the back-up. He might be more mobile than Ray and Harris, but I don't think he can be a consistent passer in this league.

[gilthethrill]

OV, did Wil Finch not suffer 2 concussions this season? I don't agree with Dunks tweet regarding Rays deal making it harder to resign Harris. I doubt he goes to Montreal to sit on the bench behind already announced starter Kevin Glenn.

[Will]

OV, did Wil Finch not suffer 2 concussions this season? I don't agree with Dunks tweet regarding Rays deal making it harder to resign Harris. I doubt he goes to Montreal to sit on the bench behind already announced starter Kevin Glenn.

It isn't as if Cato stunk out the joint in Montreal either.

[gilthethrill]

It isn't as if Cato stunk out the joint in Montreal either.

Exactly. I really believe Harris's best chance to play is in Toronto.

[Will]

Exactly. I really believe Harris's best chance to play is in Toronto.

Well of course you do :D

[OV Argo]

Gaping hole is a bit strong, the Argonauts have Fajardo and Kilgore. Let's be honest, we saw very little of Harris prior to 2015 to know what he could do and Harris worked out pretty well I suppose (I'm not a fan). Milanovich is also quite high on Kilgore. Will Finch is a good prospect IMO, whether or not he gets a legit shot is something else entirely..

Sorry - gaping hole it is IMO; Fajardo (???) and Kilgore have exactly what - zero CFL playing experience ?; and MacPherson is a short yardage QB with next to no pro QB consistent passing ability - guy isn't worth being on a CFL roster except for making minimum CFL wage as a 3rd stringer at best.

[R.J]

I'm not comfortable at all with McPherson as the back-up. He might be more mobile than Ray and Harris, but I don't think he can be a consistent passer in this league.
Agreed, not comfortable at all with McPherson as the back-up, he's a #3 at best. No issue with Kilgore moving up the latter.

.
Sorry - gaping hole it is IMO; Fajardo (???) and Kilgore have exactly what - zero CFL playing experience ?; and MacPherson is a short yardage QB with next to no pro QB consistent passing ability - guy isn't worth being on a CFL roster except for making minimum CFL wage as a 3rd stringer at best.
Harris had 1 game experience prior to this past season, so in your opinion, did the Argonauts have a gaping hole at QB in 2015 as well ?

[OV Argo]

Agreed, not comfortable at all with McPherson as the back-up, he's a #3 at best. No issue with Kilgore moving up the latter.

Harris had 1 game experience prior to this past season, so in your opinion, did the Argonauts have a gaping hole at QB in 2015 as well ?


Nope - not near as much; because I saw Harris play and he was impressive; he had the CFL roster experience (wasn't he the 2nd stringer when Collaros was the starter for an injured Ray), plus I always liked Harris' fine college ball resume. Kilgore may be a superstar in waiting - haven't seen him play though.

[R.J]

Nope - not near as much; because I saw Harris play and he was impressive; he had the CFL roster experience (wasn't he the 2nd stringer when Collaros was the starter for an injured Ray), plus I always liked Harris' fine college ball resume. Kilgore may be a superstar in waiting - haven't seen him play though.
Harris was impressive against Ottawa in 2014, really ?
Because all I saw was what was to come = Captain Check-down.

[ArgoRavi]

Matt Nichols has re-signed to be Drew Willy's backup in Winnipeg while Jeremiah Masoli has re-signed with the Ticats to be one of the backups there. I don't see an obvious landing spot for Trevor Harris. I think that there was some suggestion that Harris could end up in Winnipeg but I think that can be ruled out now.

[AngeloV]

Matt Nichols has re-signed to be Drew Willy's backup in Winnipeg while Jeremiah Masoli has re-signed with the Ticats to be one of the backups there. I don't see an obvious landing spot for Trevor Harris. I think that there was some suggestion that Harris could end up in Winnipeg but I think that can be ruled out now.

Yeah, at this stage, Harris will not make more than 200k wherever he signs. The question is, would he rather be a back up in Toronto, or somewhere else? He would be nuts not to sign with the Argos, seeing as how he knows the system and he was effective under the system for the most part.

[paulwoods13]

Still think Mtl, BC and Sask are possibilities, altho the latter two seem pretty slim. If Durant had any sort of setback in his recovery I could see Harris going there, and Mtl can't (or at least shouldn't) be completely sold on Glenn and Cato. B.C. is probably committed to Jennings, but stranger things have happened. I won't be comfortable until Harris has actually signed.

[gilthethrill]

Yeah, at this stage, Harris will not make more than 200k wherever he signs. The question is, would he rather be a back up in Toronto, or somewhere else? He would be nuts not to sign with the Argos, seeing as how he knows the system and he was effective under the system for the most part.

I hate to do this, but I have to agree. Options are really limited for Harris. He could double his salary by staying put in a system that he knows and has had success. Even with Ray, I think Harris will see playing time one way or another, either as a starter or backup.

[OV Argo]

Matt Nichols has re-signed to be Drew Willy's backup in Winnipeg while Jeremiah Masoli has re-signed with the Ticats to be one of the backups there. I don't see an obvious landing spot for Trevor Harris. I think that there was some suggestion that Harris could end up in Winnipeg but I think that can be ruled out now.


The Bummers are, IMO, going nowhere with Willy & Nichols as QBs - neither is a good calibre starting CFL QB, though Willy has certainly been an upgrade over some of the awful stiffs they have trotted out over the past number of years; still though - Willy is just not an accurate enough passer and not much in terms of mobility either, and Nichols is a Willy-lite. SO - if any CFL team should have interest in Harris, it should be the Bombers - he would be an easy upgrade over those 2 IMO, but maybe O'Shea and co. there don't think so ... and poor personnel decisions/deployment and coaching hire decisions are becoming a feature of that regime there IMO. Again - they will be mired near last place with Willy as their starting QB, and especially with a same old. standard look, predictable dullard offensive mind in LaPolice as OC (you will see basically no difference from what another same old in Bell-fool tried on offence there) ... then as LaPo as the new HC in waiting if O'Shea gets canned = brutal ... I feel sorry for Bomber fans, but don't see things getting any better soon there and possibly worse.

[Argo]

The Bummers are, IMO, going nowhere with Willy & Nichols as QBs - neither is a good calibre starting CFL QB, though Willy has certainly been an upgrade over some of the awful stiffs they have trotted out over the past number of years; still though - Willy is just not an accurate enough passer and not much in terms of mobility either, and Nichols is a Willy-lite. SO - if any CFL team should have interest in Harris, it should be the Bombers - he would be an easy upgrade over those 2 IMO, but maybe O'Shea and co. there don't think so ... and poor personnel decisions/deployment and coaching hire decisions are becoming a feature of that regime there IMO. Again - they will be mired near last place with Willy as their starting QB, and especially with a same old. standard look, predictable dullard offensive mind in LaPolice as OC (you will see basically no difference from what another same old in Bell-fool tried on offence there) ... then as LaPo as the new HC in waiting if O'Shea gets canned = brutal ... I feel sorry for Bomber fans, but don't see things getting any better soon there and possibly worse.

I shall believe Willy can avoid Yet Another Injury when he completes anything like a full season. Yes, I agree, the Bummers... it's a bummer to be a Bummers fan. Bummers' decision-making: invariably riding out with all saddles blazing...

[KCargosfan]

Yeah, at this stage, Harris will not make more than 200k wherever he signs. The question is, would he rather be a back up in Toronto, or somewhere else? He would be nuts not to sign with the Argos, seeing as how he knows the system and he was effective under the system for the most part.

As usual, AV hits the nail on the head.