How long before BMO is an Argonaut only stadium?

[1argoholic]

I just don't see TFC lasting. I hear that many of their so called fans are going to bail now that The Argonauts are in. How can this league spend the kind of cash they do on players with so so attendance numbers. Many leagues have come and gone by getting ahead of themselves. The CFL does it right!!

[Neely2005]

With MLSE owning TFC I don't think that TFC is going to go out of business unless MLS folds. I have no issues sharing City Owned BMO Field with TFC.

[Will]

Toronto FC fans threatening to do something is drastically different than Toronto FC fans actually doing something. We won't see what effects (if any) there are on their fanbase until next season. Personally, I doubt you'll notice a huge difference. There will be a small percentage of hot-heads who perhaps do go through with their threat, but I think a majority of their fanbase resigned themselves to BMO becoming multipurpose.

[1argoholic]

Get blue seats in there now!!!! That stadium is ours now! haha.

[Fumblitis]

Get blue seats in there now!!!! That stadium is ours now! haha.Or you could just fill it with Argo fans and save your money.

[Stouffvillain]

I just don't see TFC lasting. I hear that many of their so called fans are going to bail now that The Argonauts are in. How can this league spend the kind of cash they do on players with so so attendance numbers. Many leagues have come and gone by getting ahead of themselves. The CFL does it right!!

Simply put BMO will never be Argos only. MLSE believes in TFC as a product or they would not shell out millions of dollars year after year on high profile players.

The vocal minority does not equal many of their fans. Will there be some that leave? Sure.

There have been many things that have angered TFC supporters over the years and demonstrations have been made which led to discussions between supporters and front office to better the situations.

The biggest issue that TFC fans have is having a playing surface that is anything less than perfect for TFC on matchdays. Any fan of any team in any league would want the same thing.

[R.J]

I would hope that in 20+ years or once BMO is at the end of the road, the Argonauts and TFC share a new venue once again.
BMO Field is the home of Toronto FC and the Toronto Argonuats, why not just be happy with that.

[Stouffvillain]

I would hope that in 20+ years or once BMO is at the end of the road, the Argonauts and TFC share a new venue once again.
BMO Field is the home of Toronto FC and the Toronto Argonuats, why not just be happy with that.

I get why some supporters are upset but the writing was on the wall for 2 years now. Toronto was without MLS level soccer for years, when it came people were very excited again. Many of the people saying they will leave are young enough to not know what it was like to have nothing.

[1argoholic]

Honestly it feels like a step back in all reality to me. Too bad Rogers are A Holes!!! CNE Stadium could be a miserable place to watch football when it was three or four degrees, raining sideways with wind howling off the lake and now we're back to that. Summer will be a blast. Dressing for cold rain is very different then just cold. Not sure how well the little tin roofs will work. Oh well this is supposedly what TO Argo fans wanted so we shall see.

[Stouffvillain]

It will be absolutely freezing for late season games 1argoholic. March/April (and sometimes May) TFC games can be frigid. The roof won't protect from the elements either (they are more for sound purposes). Rain/snow/wind will still blow in from all sides. Late season games be ready to wear layers.

You are correct though that summer games will be a blast.

[Will]

The most significant issue with Toronto stadium history is that the call for a domed, multipurpose stadium came at the end of the "cookie-cutter" era in the United States. The dome in Minneapolis was opened in 1982. In addition, there were domes built in Vancouver, Indianapolis and St. Petersburg. Now when the SkyDome was completed in 1989, it was considered to be the stadium of the future and consequently Blue Jays attendance rose above 4,000,000 and Argo attendance crept back into the 35,000-40,000 range. However, in 1992 the Orioles opened Camden Yards, which set the precedent for future baseball stadiums with a retro, baseball-only feel. Retractable roofs would still be incorporated, but in a less invasive way.

I guess the point of my little history rant is that tastes change.

[R.J]

I get why some supporters are upset but the writing was on the wall for 2 years now. Toronto was without MLS level soccer for years, when it came people were very excited again. Many of the people saying they will leave are young enough to not know what it was like to have nothing.
I'll be the first to admit that for a few years I said I didn't care if TFC folded or that I wanted them to fold, it never had anything to do with the team, but the negative fans that they had. Maybe it's because I've gotten older and more mature, I don't know, but the way I look at this is let's look at the positives here, TFC is alive and well, BMO is receiving a major renovation, that IMO should make the soccer experience better, heck the money that they're investing in the grass alone is a positive for the team. IIRC there was issues with the first TFC game last year due to the affect the ice storm winter had, maybe with the desso system and the new heating system that won't happen again. The Argos have new solid ownership, along with moving into a new home that's much more suitable to their needs and a co-tenant that plays less than 81 home games nor practices there on the regular. The new roof will hopefully make BMO the loudest venue in both the MLS and CFL.

Neither team needs to or should fold, personally I don't want to see any team fold (Not even the Arizona Coyotes, moving the Coyotes may be a different matter lol). Why can't we all just get along and wait and see how this all works out for both teams, MLSE and TanenBELL are investing a lot of time and money to make sure it's the best possible situation, IMO that should be taken as a good thing.

I also want to personally apologize to Tbone for all the hoopla and grief I may have caused previously. I'm sure we'll still get into debates from time to time, but sports fans in this city should stick together.

[Stouffvillain]

I don't know why both teams fans can't get along (so long as there are no effect to the field). The biggest sports franchises in the city (Leafs) share their venue with other events (Raptors, Toronto Rock, concerts etc).

With the cost/availability of land in the city a single venue for every team just isn't a viable option. I don't know why that is so hard for some to accept.

[marcwagz]

I just don't like the opinion of many tfc fans that the argos should just fold Instead of using their stadium and potentially damaging the grass...
if tfc had no home I would welcome them to the argos field.
stop being so selfish... watch an argo game or two you may like it, I may catch a tfc game now that we are in the same stadium.

[argolio]

I don't know why both teams fans can't get alongWill this Bell-Tannenbaum-Vito Corleone brokered peace stand the test of time? We'll see.

Though I read somewhere that the infamous 'No Argos at BMO' banner taken down during the TFC home opener was displayed without incident during their next game, so I'm not sure the malcontents are going to give up their protests.

[argonaut11xx]

The most significant issue with Toronto stadium history is that the call for a domed, multipurpose stadium came at the end of the "cookie-cutter" era in the United States. The dome in Minneapolis was opened in 1982. In addition, there were domes built in Vancouver, Indianapolis and St. Petersburg. Now when the SkyDome was completed in 1989, it was considered to be the stadium of the future and consequently Blue Jays attendance rose above 4,000,000 and Argo attendance crept back into the 35,000-40,000 range. However, in 1992 the Orioles opened Camden Yards, which set the precedent for future baseball stadiums with a retro, baseball-only feel. Retractable roofs would still be incorporated, but in a less invasive way.

I guess the point of my little history rant is that tastes change.

I LOVED "The EX", and didnt mind the weather, as a teen then into my early twenties....HOWEVER...now approaching 50, im not sure that i'd enjoy the rain,snow, and frigid temps as much. I have no quarrle with the Skydome, its just the owners who are gutterfilth

[Will]

The main concern of Toronto FC fans seems to be the grass. We'll see the results soon enough on the impact that CFL football will have on that.

When the argument that some Toronto FC fans put forth denigrates into CFL & Argo bashing it cheapens their argument because it makes you think whether their motivation is protecting their turf or just being CFL haters.

[T-Bone]

I also want to personally apologize to Tbone for all the hoopla and grief I may have caused previously. I'm sure we'll still get into debates from time to time, but sports fans in this city should stick together.
No worries. Hopefully we can grab a pint in the not to distant future and cheers to "peace and long life" for both teams at BMO Field and beyond.


I read somewhere that the infamous 'No Argos at BMO' banner taken down during the TFC home opener was displayed without incident during their next game, so I'm not sure the malcontents are going to give up their protests.
Who cares? It's a done deal now and they can protest all they want, it won't change anything. Also, yes it was up at the last TFC home game. Maybe we can purchase it from Inebriatti, cut off the "NO" and use it at the Argos home opener in 2016.

569

[Will]

Will this Bell-Tannenbaum-Vito Corleone brokered peace stand the test of time? We'll see.

Though I read somewhere that the infamous 'No Argos at BMO' banner taken down during the TFC home opener was displayed without incident during their next game, so I'm not sure the malcontents are going to give up their protests.

I understand that some fans intend to wear black t-shirts to bemoan the loss of their soccer-specific stadium. I don't think this particular "event" will reference the Argos though.

[R.J]

No worries. Hopefully we can grab a pint in the not to distant future and cheers to "peace and long life" for both teams at BMO Field and beyond.
Nothing wrong with that.

[Fumblitis]

No worries. Hopefully we can grab a pint in the not to distant future and cheers to "peace and long life" for both teams at BMO Field and beyond.


Who cares? It's a done deal now and they can protest all they want, it won't change anything. Also, yes it was up at the last TFC home game. Maybe we can purchase it from Inebriatti, cut off the "NO" and use it at the Argos home opener in 2016.

569No need for that with the big Argo logo on the jumbotron during the announcement yesterday.

[marcwagz]

tfc fans should realize tfc doesn't even deserve its own stadium...
The Toronto rock don't have their own stadium and they probably have pretty similar TV ratings.

[T-Bone]

tfc fans should realize tfc doesn't even deserve its own stadium...
The Toronto rock don't have their own stadium and they probably have pretty similar TV ratings.
How is this statement any different than some of the statements from TFC fans that you were complaining about earlier?

[DanoT]

Whether it is banners, boycotts or t-shirts, or demonstrations at Argo games at Rogers Skydome by the Red Patch Boys, any media coverage will only help the Argos get the word out to fans that for 2016 the Argos play at BMO.

Regardless of the antics/tactics of TFC fans there is no downside for the Argos. I can't see any Argo fan not going to a game at BMO Field because soccer fans are unhappy about having to share the stadium with the Argos.

It's all good for the Argos and the CFL, especially with MLSE (Rogers) not part of the new ownership.

[Brian45]

I understand that some fans intend to wear black t-shirts to bemoan the loss of their soccer-specific stadium. I don't think this particular "event" will reference the Argos though. haha I'm in the same sections as the supporters for TFC. I think for the next game I attend I'm going to wear my Ray jersey while others wear black ha

[PullTogether73]

haha I'm in the same sections as the supporters for TFC. I think for the next game I attend I'm going to wear my Ray jersey while others wear black ha

Ha indeed!
I'm going to the TFC game this Saturday.
I was VERY tempted to wear one of my Argos jerseys, but given their maniacal posts, I don't trust for my safety in that situation.

[argotom]

Back on topic, just like the old NASL the ponzi scheme known as MLS cannot sustain the mega losses by the vast majority of teams as it continues to hemorrhage big time annually.

[Invader]

It's very likely the MLS will fail within the next 5 to 10 years. The league just isn't sustainable in it's present form once the expansion money dries up. MLS TV ratings are terrible in Canada & U.S. (TFC drew a national audience of only 14,000 for the Chicago game last year) which doesn't bode well for the future. The percentage of Canadians who follow MLS is only 7%-8% while the CFL is followed by 26%.

The 3 Canadian MLS teams should team up with Soccer Canada and the CFL to form a Canadian SuperLigue. The new league could play out of CFL stadiums (along with Saputo Stade in Montreal), absorbing the Canadian teams in the NASL, with teams in Ottawa, Hamilton, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton along with Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.

[1argoholic]

I'd bet most soccer fans in Canada sit and watch English soccer every weekend rather then hit tfc games. TFC to me seems to have a youngish crowd. That may be why they feel this stadium is theirs. It's the Me Me Me generation. They're the same ones who's daddy bought them their lowered Honda as soon as they turned 16. The world owes them everything.

[Rich]

I just don't see TFC lasting. I hear that many of their so called fans are going to bail now that The Argonauts are in. How can this league spend the kind of cash they do on players with so so attendance numbers. Many leagues have come and gone by getting ahead of themselves. The CFL does it right!!


This thread is as useful as David Shoalts question at the press conference.

[LLB997]

mls is a ponzi scheme and will eventually implode, then its all ARGOS, bwaaaaaaaaaa

seriously though,
Ive read posts on certain sites and the contingent of NOAgosatBMO r getting no love from the masses. crybabies, sucks and whiners are a lot of the terms I am reading associated with them. they are cooking their own goose imo.

[Will]

Mike Toth mentioned the Black T-Shirt "protest" on the CFRB sportscast this morning. Neither he or John Moore had much sympathy for Toronto FC fans.

[Argocister]

We could have our own black t shirt game ..... The
Argos and
I have survived the Skydome debacle ....... I refuse to put a rogers name on a shirt I own

[matchuk]

i personally don't care what some soccer fans are complaining about, however, i do see why they are complaining....tfc has played at bmo for how many years? (i actually don't know) with no one else sharing bmo field....so, of course fans are going to think its "their" field...we all know it was built on public money, but when a team has solely used it for a while and suddenly someone else steps in it will cause some displeasure...i can imagine some argos fans would be upset if the tables were turned...us at bmo for years and now a soccer team steps in...

we can all see that teams that are bigger and make more money and are worth more than tfc and the argos share stadiums/turf, so its going to be natural that smaller market teams will share a field..geeze...the giants and jets share an nfl field without issue

[1argoholic]

Hopefully our new ownership doesn't piss off Argo season ticket holders such as what happened upon our move to Skydome. Some folks had prime season tickets at CNE for years and years and they got screwed over. All seats were up for grabs at Skydome with no thought for the diehards from CNE. Many bailed on their seasons right then and there.

In all reality I really put little thought into TFC, The Jays or Raptors and their fans. I couldn't really care about any of these teams. However I do get pissed when upstart fans of a so so league gets pissed at the Argos and there fans. We as fans didn't make the moves to get our team in at BMO. We just are along for the ride. Personally I wish things could be different as I like the dome and it's location. No one had issues with the dome when it was rocking and we kicked Calgary around winning the 100th Grey Cup. Yes the 100th Grey Cup. I doubt TFC fans could even understand that. What they've been around for six or seven years?

Hopefully it all settles down on the TFC side of things and it'll all be water under the bridge. If not, I for one won't take any of their shite.

[ArgoRavi]

i personally don't care what some soccer fans are complaining about, however, i do see why they are complaining....tfc has played at bmo for how many years? (i actually don't know) with no one else sharing bmo field....so, of course fans are going to think its "their" field...we all know it was built on public money, but when a team has solely used it for a while and suddenly someone else steps in it will cause some displeasure...i can imagine some argos fans would be upset if the tables were turned...us at bmo for years and now a soccer team steps in...

Were Argos fans this upset in the mid 1970s when the Blue Jays moved into Exhibition Stadium? That move really did ruin what seemed like a good football stadium as it made it into a stadium that was neither good for football nor baseball. I was quite young at the time but I can't recall hearing anything about Argos fans complaining about the Jays moving in. The only person who I have heard say anything about that is Leo Cahill who said to some people back in 1977 that it would never quite be the same again for the Argos in Toronto with Major League Baseball now in town (how prescient he turned out to be). He really wasn't talking about the stadium though but rather the Argos' profile in the city.

[gilthethrill]

Were Argos fans this upset in the mid 1970s when the Blue Jays moved into Exhibition Stadium? That move really did ruin what seemed like a good football stadium as it made it into a stadium that was neither good for football nor baseball. I was quite young at the time but I can't recall hearing anything about Argos fans complaining about the Jays moving in. The only person who I have heard say anything about that is Leo Cahill who said to some people back in 1977 that it would never quite be the same again for the Argos in Toronto with Major League Baseball now in town (how prescient he turned out to be). He really wasn't talking about the stadium though but rather the Argos' profile in the city.

Do you remember that seam that went across the football field where the outfield fence stood for Jays games? I am sure I read articles where football players ripped up a knee because of that.

[T-Bone]

Do you remember that seam that went across the football field where the outfield fence stood for Jays games? I am sure I read articles where football players ripped up a knee because of that.
That's not cool. Hopefully the field conditions will be top notch for both teams at BMO Field in 2016 and beyond.

[HereComeTheIrish]

As a former TFC season ticket holder and huge footy fan, I think that you will find that many TFC fans are very snobby and arrogant. I support TFC passionately, but our fans do feel a huge sense of entitlement considering we havent done squat since joining the league. The Argos however have consistently been a good team, and our average attendance has basically matched theirs. The only difference being that we play in the cavernous Rogers Centre, so it looks bad on us.

That will all change. I have a feeling that come next year the Argos could be a hot ticket in town, as fans will want to see what a real home field advantage will look like, something the Argos have been lacking in recent years.

[marcwagz]

How is this statement any different than some of the statements from TFC fans that you were complaining about earlier?

because I admit the argos don't really deserve their own stadium and am more than willing to share?

[AngeloV]

Do you remember that seam that went across the football field where the outfield fence stood for Jays games? I am sure I read articles where football players ripped up a knee because of that.

That seam was nicknamed the Marler seam, as former Ti-Cat QB Dave Marler toer his knee badly on it.

[1argoholic]

I was born in 62 and my mom started taking me to Argo games at CNE Stadium when I was around 7. I was totally a Toronto sports kid. Loved The Argonauts, Leafs and eventually The Jays. I played both hockey and baseball through my teens. I was pumped when The Jays came to TO and CNE Stadium. I went to plenty of Jays and Argo games finally getting Argo seasons in the Scotia Bank cheap seats in the 80's. I also remember having zero issue with The Toronto Blizzard who the the city's soccer team of that era. They all used CNE Stadium. I don't think anyone felt entitled to anything in those days. We just never had those thoughts or feelings. We were all just happy that Toronto had a great growing sports scene. Somewhere since Skydome was built everything went nuts and Toronto had drastically changed.

I blame the media with their World Class City BS and various team owners for buying into that bunk. Just because your city is a worldly place doesn't mean you crap on it's history and own people.

[argotom]

I was born in 62 and my mom started taking me to Argo games at CNE Stadium when I was around 7. I was totally a Toronto sports kid. Loved The Argonauts, Leafs and eventually The Jays. I played both hockey and baseball through my teens. I was pumped when The Jays came to TO and CNE Stadium. I went to plenty of Jays and Argo games finally getting Argo seasons in the Scotia Bank cheap seats in the 80's. I also remember having zero issue with The Toronto Blizzard who the the city's soccer team of that era. They all used CNE Stadium. I don't think anyone felt entitled to anything in those days. We just never had those thoughts or feelings. We were all just happy that Toronto had a great growing sports scene. Somewhere since Skydome was built everything went nuts and Toronto had drastically changed.

I blame the media with their World Class City BS and various team owners for buying into that bunk. Just because your city is a worldly place doesn't mean you crap on it's history and own people.

Agreed.
I don't really know what this WC anointment really means, it's seems more like an inferiority complex people have when they throw out this handle.
Almost like a wannabe US scenario, American sports or nothing else matters crap.

[argos1873]

The thing that irks me about the complaining TFC fans is that for all intents and purposes BMO field will still be a soccer specific stadium. This whole thing about SSS's in the MLS is because initially almost all the teams played in monstrous pro football or college football stadiums. What MLS fans wanted were intimate stadiums that fit their average attendance levels that were close to the action. They wouldn't care if such field was shared with any other sport, so long as the field was taken care of for soccer. The main concern was atmosphere, kind of like what CFL teams now desire, and what BMO provides. The dimensions for soccer will remain the same. The atmosphere for TFC fans won't change one iota. Will the field be suitable? I suppose we have to take MLSE's word for it that they are doing everything they can to ensure that it is, and besides that has one person who it will really affect, a TFC player, ever complained publicly that the sharing of the field is a concern to them? If so I haven't heard anything. I really believe this is an "its my toy and I won't share it" situation by certain entitled fans. The same types that think they are smarter than you for liking soccer over football, and more worldly than you because they wear a scarf and sing songs at a soccer game, sorry I mean football match. Not that there's anything wrong with that, if that's what you are into. Just don't try to tell me that you are smarter, more sophisticated or entitled to something that you don't own, as a result of that.

[gilthethrill]

That's not cool. Hopefully the field conditions will be top notch for both teams at BMO Field in 2016 and beyond.

In all fairness, I should have made mention that players who competed in the old NASL dealt with the same hazzard when they took the field at CNE Stadium as well. Honestly, BMO doesn't need to become an Argo only stadium. TFC fans will enjoy their field and all this will be forgotten.

[argos1873]

In all fairness, I should have made mention that players who competed in the old NASL dealt with the same hazzard when they took the field at CNE Stadium as well. Honestly, BMO doesn't need to become an Argo only stadium. TFC fans will enjoy their field and all this will be forgotten.

Agreed. It won't detract from Argo fans experience if TFC play at BMO, just like it won't from TFC fans experience when the Argos play there. Time to learn our lessons from Mr Rogers, and share.

[Ron]

Two points

1. The Red and white colour of the seats is awesome. After all ... it is the colours of our flag and I am a proud Canadian who appreciates that.

2. Anyone notice that some TFC fans get all snooty about Canada's National Soccer stadium ... yet the Pan Am games are using it for Rugby and playing Soccer at Tim Horton's Field?

[ArgoRavi]

Two points

1. The Red and white colour of the seats is awesome. After all ... it is the colours of our flag and I am a proud Canadian who appreciates that.

2. Anyone notice that some TFC fans get all snooty about Canada's National Soccer stadium ... yet the Pan Am games are using it for Rugby and playing Soccer at Tim Horton's Field?

Rugby and lacrosse are both played with some regularity at BMO Field and yet TFC fans make no noise about that. They have latched onto the field as being the reason why they don't want the Argos there but I honestly believe they will find any reason to keep the Argos out of BMO.

[Neely2005]

I only know 2 TFC season ticket holders but they're both CFL fans and are both excited about the Argonauts moving to BMO Field. I think that it's only the vocal minority of TFC fans who are upset by this.

[Brian45]

I'm a TFC season ticket holder too. Since day 1 of the team and I sit right in the supporters section. I like TFC and their games but there is no question that the fans I sit near are being absolute children about the Argos at BMO thing (I was happy that their banner got taken down). To be honest I'm a much bigger Argos fan than TFC but the game day experience as it currently is makes the ticket buying question simple. I'm going to add season for Argos games at BMO now too and I think it's honesly going to to be great for both sports. Houston Dynamo share with football teams as well so this can work. I hope it works out that I'll have the same seat for both teams.

[Argo57]

That's not cool. Hopefully the field conditions will be top notch for both teams at BMO Field in 2016 and beyond.

The CNE (and most stadiums in general) turf was basically indoor/outdoor carpet on cement, I remember Argonaut linebacker Campbell Hackney landing on a seem on the turf at the Big O in Montreal in 1982 (or 83) which wrecked his knee and ended his career.
Thankfully the turf technology seems light years ahead today.

[Will]

The 70-18 victory over Calgary in 1990 almost didn't happen because of the deficiencies. I think that Darrell Smith (no K yet!) was one of the most vocal critics that night. He ended up with 200 yards receiving or something.

[1argoholic]

Problem to me seems like many young TFC fans have zero clue about the history of football vs soccer in the country. Firstly football has so much more tradition. I'd bet most of these fans come from newer Canadian families. My grandparents on one side moved from Belarus what must be 80 something years ago. Sport to them was just getting hear on a ship. These fans grew up with soccer or learned about the sport through their parents. Soccer might be the biggest sport in most of the world but it's down the list in Canada. Just look at how horrible our Canadian Mens team is. Do we still have one?
Plus Argonaut fans of a certain age do remember having THEIR stadium taken over and a whole section added on for the Jays. The TO Blizzard also played there. I don't recall anyone being pissed off as I've mentioned on here. This whole scene is a load of crap being slung by TFC fans. Most Argonaut fans don't give a rats ass about sharing a field with anyone. Not once did I feel that my Argo game day experience lacked at CNE or Skydome because they Jays also played there.
If this new hybrid turf is good enough for Wembley where the best soccer in the world is played along with rugby then what is the real issue with TFC fans?
I watched a few minutes of the TFC and Portland game today. Plenty of empty seats, that Argo Hate banner in the endzone and really slow high school like soccer. If anyone deserves there own stadium it's The Toronto Argonauts and not some upstart team from a mediocre soccer league. It's not Argo fans fault that MLSE has more money then brains and that Argonaut ownership as of late has screwed the pooch and we're stuck going to another mistake by the lake.

I've heard the kind of rumblings before from fans of an upstart so called pro leagues. There has been at least three or four other football leagues, one soccer league that I recall and The WHL or whatever it was called. Where the Winnipeg Jets originated and we had the Toronto Toros. All failed leagues that thought they were all that.

The CFL just keeps trucking along soccer fans so now you must get used to double blue covering the red seats. TFC fans calling the CFL bush when they blow coin to watch an eight year old mediocre soccer team lose more then win. I have socks older then this team. My socks are in better shape then TFC.

I'll ad that I'm done wasting time on TFC matters. In my world TFC doesn't matter and won't matter. You'll be finding a whack of TFC merch at Vallue Village when they fold up real good.