Harris vs. Collaros

[ArgoRavi]

Maybe we should use this thread to track both of these Jim Barker recruits and their rivalry this season and beyond. With all due respect to Zach Collaros, Trevor Harris looked better today against Edmonton than Collaros ever has.

[argotom]

It was an awesome game Ravi for Harris, let's now see if he can string a few together.
Then he may be the real deal with the torch being passed on to the next one from RR.

[ArgoGabe22]

What have you done Ravi? We will never hear the end of the Ray vs Collaros vs Harris debate for the next 10 years!

[jerrym]

What have you done Ravi? We will never hear the end of the Ray vs Collaros vs Harris debate for the next 10 years!

For an overall career, Ray will be hard to top. While I think Collaros could have a good career, I don't think his skill set will make him a great one.
On the other hand, I think Harris is more than likely going to outshine Collaros and could win a MOP someday, but I doubt if he will be a Hall of Famer like Ray.

[ArgoZ]

For an overall career, Ray will be hard to top. While I think Collaros could have a good career, I don't think his skill set will make him a great one.
On the other hand, I think Harris is more than likely going to outshine Collaros and could win a MOP someday, but I doubt if he will be a Hall of Famer like Ray.

I see Collaros more Doug Flutie like and Harris more Dunigan. It's going to take years for them to be considered comparable to either, but even if one of them does, the CFL will be lucky.

[argonaut11xx]

Trevor,an ARGO QB

Zach,a pussy cat QB

Obviously, the kid in double blue, WINS, by a country mile

[argotom]

I see Collaros more Doug Flutie like and Harris more Dunigan. It's going to take years for them to be considered comparable to either, but even if one of them does, the CFL will be lucky.


Agree with you.
Either way if both keep developing it means many exciting years and great match ups involving the Cats and Argos and ultimately there is no better rivalry which will pack both joints.

[argonaut11xx]

Agree with you.
Either way if both keep developing it means many exciting years and great match ups involving the Cats and Argos and ultimately there is no better rivalry which will pack both joints.

Harris is way tougher,24 for 27, 300+ yards....the pussy cats can have zac,,,,,

Trevor is better NOW, and in the future....

I do hope Zac has a CFL career , and gets SPANKED, year after year by the Argo`s

[paulwoods13]

Here's the thing. The debate up until now (starting back in 2013 before Collaros even left) has always been about which QB we'd be better off having, Ray or Collaros. How many of us seriously considered the notion that Harris might have more upside than Collaros? And that JB-SM may ultimately be judged on the decision to keep Harris rather than the decision to keep Ray.

[Ron]

Maybe we should use this thread to track both of these Jim Barker recruits and their rivalry this season and beyond. With all due respect to Zach Collaros, Trevor Harris looked better today against Edmonton than Collaros ever has.

Harris was good ... but not to that extent. But then he's in double blue and that always shades views around here. Lets see how harris keeps up once teams can gameplan for him and how he performs in a real pressure game. (Like Zac having a good game in the Grey Cup last year)

[AngeloV]

I see Collaros more Doug Flutie like and Harris more Dunigan. It's going to take years for them to be considered comparable to either, but even if one of them does, the CFL will be lucky.

I don't think Doug Flutie ever played a full game and only had his offence produce 2 FG's of offensive scoring.


I think Harris is more than likely going to outshine Collaros and could win a MOP someday, but I doubt if he will be a Hall of Famer like Ray.

It'll be hard for Harris to get HOF numbers period, as I don't think there are too many HOFers, that had their 2nd career starts at the age of 29. He's a great team player though, and that is the main reason I pull for him.

[argonaut11xx]

I don't think Doug Flutie ever played a full game and only had his offence produce 2 FG's of offensive scoring.



It'll be hard for Harris to get HOF numbers period, as I don't think there are too many HOFers, that had their 2nd career starts at the age of 29. He's a great team player though, and that is the main reason I pull for him.

I`d bet that Trevor Harris wins a GREY CUP, before Zach Collararos does....

[AngeloV]

I`d bet that Trevor Harris wins a GREY CUP, before Zach Collararos does....

Perhaps, but it might still be as a back-up to Ray. The best thing about Harris' performance IMO, is that the Argos don't need to rush Ray back. He can fully heal, and then the Argos will have 2 very solid QB's. Other than Calgary, I don't think anyone can boast that.

[Argo57]

Here's the thing. The debate up until now (starting back in 2013 before Collaros even left) has always been about which QB we'd be better off having, Ray or Collaros. How many of us seriously considered the notion that Harris might have more upside than Collaros? And that JB-SM may ultimately be judged on the decision to keep Harris rather than the decision to keep Ray.

Both QB's were highly thought of by the Argonauts brain trust when Ray was injured and we were all aware that Toronto had a couple of good prospects at QB, the major downside was we had them at the exact same time.
Happy to see our guy get his chance and play well, seems like a pretty humble team guy so good on him.
Collaros chose to leave and go to Hamilton so really don't care what he does one way or another and admittedly sometimes think of him as an ungrateful prick when I see him talking about how great it is to play in the Hammer.

[paulwoods13]

Harris was good ... but not to that extent. But then he's in double blue and that always shades views around here. Lets see how harris keeps up once teams can gameplan for him and how he performs in a real pressure game. (Like Zac having a good game in the Grey Cup last year)


I don't think Collaros has ever played as close to a perfect game as Harris had yesterday. Zach's best games for the Argos all had long stretches of poor offence. Harris kept the chains moving all game. Not saying Harris will be that good every week of course. The game-planning issue doesn't worry me because to my eyes he ran a Ricky Ray game plan anyway.

[doubleblue]

I was impressed with the play of Harris. I thought he would do ok but he passed my expectations. Also impressed with the O Line giving him time. Edmonton didn't really use the Don Mathews bring the house defense either though. Somebody on the panel said the new rules will change how defenses rush the QB's now with more than a four man rush. Apparently thinking the no contact rule in man coverage will allow the good QB's to burn a "bring the house defense". I think we will see a lot more zone defenses now with four man rushes.
Maybe the Argos have found their new lock down Left Tackle as I thought Campbell had a good game there. He has looked good right from day one. Hopefully Barker can lock him up for a few years with a new contract. These guys are difficult to find and at his age I don't think he will be going back to the NFL.
Whitaker was a great pick up. I always liked that guy. He doesn't look like he has lost a step either. Where most backs will get 3 or 4 yards running into the line, he will quite often get 8 on the same kind of play. He's also great on the swing passes to the outside. Argos have now have three guys who are great at the yac yards. Owens, Durie and Whitaker. Elliott and Gurley look good at WR.
I can see Vega moving into the rotation at DE and the DB's ad LB's have performed as advertised. The DT's were outstanding all game. Should be a good one in Regina next week.

[1argoholic]

Not sure I want to debate or just show one heck of a lot of pride in the fact that the Argonauts and Jim Barker in particular have found great young qb's and kickers. For years I spoke about us not being able to find and develop our own qb's and now we've found Medlock, Shaw and Waters also.

[gilthethrill]

Not sure I want to debate or just show one heck of a lot of pride in the fact that the Argonauts and Jim Barker in particular have found great young qb's and kickers. For years I spoke about us not being able to find and develop our own qb's and now we've found Medlock, Shaw and Waters also.

Good point about the Argos developing good kickers, but Medlock actually was brought to the Argos by Adam Rita in 2009. I think the offence that the Argos employ will also help develop qbs.

[OV Argo]

Here's the thing. The debate up until now (starting back in 2013 before Collaros even left) has always been about which QB we'd be better off having, Ray or Collaros. How many of us seriously considered the notion that Harris might have more upside than Collaros? And that JB-SM may ultimately be judged on the decision to keep Harris rather than the decision to keep Ray.


I'm not going to search thru old posts on the subject, but pretty sure I was one anyways who was quite impressed with Harris' college ball resume and thought he would be a very good CFL QB prospect and still thought that after both he & Collaros had been around for a season. Collaros moved ahead on the depth chart and got the playing time opportunity, and looked good - so he got rewarded with a starting job for the Pussycats; but I still had faith in Harris and he has learned under the likes of Millanovich and Ricky Ray for a few seasons - and wow - what a performance yesterday.

Anybody else find Harris looked very Ricky Ray - like in that game ?; calm, poised in the pocket and reads the D and throws accurate strikes (plus can buy some time or scramble a bit when needed at the right time - Ray is under-rated there IMO); not a gun for an arm, but a nice, accurate touch passer. Hopefully - Harris can have even close to the CFL career that Ray has; be nice to see the Argos with a long-time winner QB that they developed !

As for Harris vs. Collaros - time will tell; both are good looking young QBs; but I have the feeling / just IMO, Harris is the better all around QB talent.

[Wobbler]

I wouldn't say that Harris looked *calm*. He looked almost a bit twitchy at times as he went through his reads. But he sure seemed quick in his decision making, and unloaded the ball quickly and accurately. I liked the way he trusted his protection and stepped into the pocket to buy an extra second where necessary. He'll be offensive player of the week, and deservedly so.

[Argo57]

I wouldn't say that Harris looked *calm*. He looked almost a bit twitchy at times as he went through his reads. But he sure seemed quick in his decision making, and unloaded the ball quickly and accurately. I liked the way he trusted his protection and stepped into the pocket to buy an extra second where necessary. He'll be offensive player of the week, and deservedly so.

The protection afforded Harris by the O-Line was key to his success yesterday.

[paulwoods13]

I wouldn't say that Harris looked *calm*. He looked almost a bit twitchy at times as he went through his reads. But he sure seemed quick in his decision making, and unloaded the ball quickly and accurately. I liked the way he trusted his protection and stepped into the pocket to buy an extra second where necessary. He'll be offensive player of the week, and deservedly so.

I really didn't see any of the twitchiness you did. I thought he looked poised and in control on every play. Really looked RR back there in the pocket.

[argotom]

The thing I was really impressed about Harris was his reads and the progression while in the pocket.
He had very few "happy feet" while in the pocket.
As for the throws, definitely he has a better arm then ZC and the throws were leading the receivers which is a key instead of under throwing same.
A heavy ball with mostly tight spirals.
We are all hoping this was not a fluke and he can now come out and become a leader and lead this team all year long.

[bluto]

Had been hearing for 2 years that Zach Collaros was more mobile and athletic and had a bit of magic, but that Trevor Harris was the one who was a pocket passer in more of the Ray mold.

i am now seeing what they were saying. and i like it.

[Argocister]

The thing I was really impressed about Harris was his reads and the progression while in the pocket.
He had very few "happy feet" while in the pocket.
As for the throws, definitely he has a better arm then ZC and the throws were leading the receivers which is a key instead of under throwing same.
A heavy ball with mostly tight spirals.
We are all hoping this was not a fluke and he can now come out and become a leader and lead this team all year long.

Quite agree and happy to see Harris playing with confidence.
For what it's worth, I have always felt that Barker and Milanovich exposed Collaros first to the masses. Remember that this was the year of the RedBlacks selecting from the various teams. And Milanovich did say they were both good and it was difficult to choose one.
So Harris steps in and plays like a vet .... Isn't this how Ricky started? ..... I'm so interested to see how the rest of the road trip turns out.

[Fumblitis]

The protection afforded Harris by the O-Line was key to his success yesterday.And if they manhandle the Rider Dline like Winnipeg did in the second half of last weeks game, Harris is gonna have a field day back there on Sunday

[argotom]

Quite agree and happy to see Harris playing with confidence.
For what it's worth, I have always felt that Barker and Milanovich exposed Collaros first to the masses. Remember that this was the year of the RedBlacks selecting from the various teams. And Milanovich did say they were both good and it was difficult to choose one.
So Harris steps in and plays like a vet .... Isn't this how Ricky started? ..... I'm so interested to see how the rest of the road trip turns out.


Agree with you.
After Harris' performance and now with Durant out for the season, dare we say how the Argos may be a favourite to win in Regina?
Who would have thunk it?

[Stevoman]

I don't want to get ahead of ourselves. Harris has played very well in his 2 starts. Going into Regina (regardless of who's at quarterback) will be a major test and I am really looking forward to seeing how he and the whole team responds. If Harris can continue to play this well for a few more games, then yes, I'd put him on an equal level to Collaros and really makes you wonder what happens once Ray is back.

[Argo]

I'm not going to search thru old posts on the subject, but pretty sure I was one anyways who was quite impressed with Harris' college ball resume and thought he would be a very good CFL QB prospect and still thought that after both he & Collaros had been around for a season. Collaros moved ahead on the depth chart and got the playing time opportunity, and looked good - so he got rewarded with a starting job for the Pussycats; but I still had faith in Harris and he has learned under the likes of Millanovich and Ricky Ray for a few seasons - and wow - what a performance yesterday.

Anybody else find Harris looked very Ricky Ray - like in that game ?; calm, poised in the pocket and reads the D and throws accurate strikes (plus can buy some time or scramble a bit when needed at the right time - Ray is under-rated there IMO); not a gun for an arm, but a nice, accurate touch passer. Hopefully - Harris can have even close to the CFL career that Ray has; be nice to see the Argos with a long-time winner QB that they developed !

As for Harris vs. Collaros - time will tell; both are good looking young QBs; but I have the feeling / just IMO, Harris is the better all around QB talent.

Harris and Collaros is not an either-or situation. I enjoy watching both of them play and wish them both well. Harris was consistently impressive, and I'm not in the least surprised by his performance.

If Harris persists in playing at this level, it will be very difficult to justify demoting him to ride the pine again for who knows how long: that could be tantamount to ruining his career.

[Rich]

If Harris persists in playing at this level, it will be very difficult to justify demoting him to ride the pine again for who knows how long: that could be tantamount to ruining his career.

And then all those people who said Ricky's got three good years left will quickly backtrack on their words. At least I hope so. Surely we won't make the same mistake with Harris that we did with Collaros? At some point you've got to kiss your aging HOF QB goodbye, and surely it has to be at the end of this season, no?

[argotom]

Harris and Collaros is not an either-or situation. I enjoy watching both of them play and wish them both well. Harris was consistently impressive, and I'm not in the least surprised by his performance.

If Harris persists in playing at this level, it will be very difficult to justify demoting him to ride the pine again for who knows how long: that could be tantamount to ruining his career.


Yes this is only after one game, Harris has to do exactly what Collaros did for some 7 games when he filled in.
Regardless, if the two progress like I have previously said, it bodes well for the healthy rivalry over many years with the Cats.

[paulwoods13]

And then all those people who said Ricky's got three good years left will quickly backtrack on their words. At least I hope so. Surely we won't make the same mistake with Harris that we did with Collaros? At some point you've got to kiss your aging HOF QB goodbye, and surely it has to be at the end of this season, no?

Wait a second, you HOPE Ricky does not have three good years left? Or you hope we all change our mind and declare that he doesn't? Because I hope he does, and I have no intention of declaring he doesn't until I see evidence of that.

[AngeloV]

Wait a second, you HOPE Ricky does not have three good years left? Or you hope we all change our mind and declare that he doesn't? Because I hope he does, and I have no intention of declaring he doesn't until I see evidence of that.

This^^^^^^

[Rich]

Wait a second, you HOPE Ricky does not have three good years left? Or you hope we all change our mind and declare that he doesn't? Because I hope he does, and I have no intention of declaring he doesn't until I see evidence of that.

If Ricky signs another contract then we will lose Harris too. And Ricky can't play any better than Harris did on Saturday. This is not a time for sentimentality, Paul.

[AngeloV]

If Ricky signs another contract then we will lose Harris too. And Ricky can't play any better than Harris did on Saturday. This is not a time for sentimentality, Paul.

Or maybe unlike Collaros, Harris will be happy to be paid above average 2nd string money, and wait his turn. Team first player, knowing that he is in a good situation.

[argotom]

If Ricky signs another contract then we will lose Harris too. And Ricky can't play any better than Harris did on Saturday. This is not a time for sentimentality, Paul.


There is no chance they will lose another QB, if Harris proves to be the real deal.
This time they will let Ray go or have him be the back up.

[Rich]

Or maybe unlike Collaros, Harris will be happy to be paid above average 2nd string money, and wait his turn. Team first player, knowing that he is in a good situation.

He may be a team first player, but he's not a fool. At 29 you don't turn down an opportunity for starters money in professional football.

[paulwoods13]

If Ricky signs another contract then we will lose Harris too. And Ricky can't play any better than Harris did on Saturday. This is not a time for sentimentality, Paul.

This is not the time to declare Harris the long-term QB after one fantastic performance. There's nothing sentimental about hoping we have two outstanding QBs and can either find a way to keep both or have to make a tough decision. And a tough decision might mean letting the 29-yr-old walk and keeping the 35-yr-old. Or it might be the other way around. The jury's not only still out on that, the case hasn't even reached final arguments stage.

[argolio]

He may be a team first player, but he's not a fool. At 29 you don't turn down an opportunity for starters money in professional football.Drew Tate, come on down!

Adrian McPherson was okay backing up Calvillo for five years (age 25-29) with little if any chance of starting.

So it depends on the player.

[Rich]

This is not the time to declare Harris the long-term QB after one fantastic performance. There's nothing sentimental about hoping we have two outstanding QBs and can either find a way to keep both or have to make a tough decision. And a tough decision might mean letting the 29-yr-old walk and keeping the 35-yr-old. Or it might be the other way around. The jury's not only still out on that, the case hasn't even reached final arguments stage.

Sure, the jury's still out on Harris. He may still lay an egg or two in the next few games. BUT, if he maintains a level of play anywhere near his first game, then surely it's an open and shut case.

[Rich]

Adrian McPherson was okay backing up Calvillo for five years (age 25-29) with little if any chance of starting.



And it pretty much ruined his career.

[argolio]

Sure, the jury's still out on Harris. He may still lay an egg or two in the next few games. BUT, if he maintains a level of play anywhere near his first game, then surely it's an open and shut case.Yeah, open-and-shut they'll put Ray back in when he's healthy.

[Rich]

Yeah, open-and-shut they'll put Ray back in when he's healthy.

So you would sign Ricky next year if he's 100% healthy and let Harris walk?

[argolio]

And it pretty much ruined his career.I still see him making teams and getting paid.


So you would sign Ricky next year if he's 100% healthy and let Harris walk?Who says Harris is walking?

[Rich]

I still see him making teams and getting paid.

Yes, he established himself as career backup, but things might have been a lot different for him if he left Montreal earlier. You gotta believe his experience is in the back of Trevor Harris' mind.

[argolio]

Yes, he established himself as career backup, but things might have been a lot different for him if he left Montreal earlier. You gotta believe his experience is in the back of Trevor Harris' mind.More likely that no one had any interest in McPherson as a potential starter. He didn't exactly impress much during the few games he started.

I bet Harris has devoted exactly zero seconds of thought to McPherson's experience.

[Rich]

I bet Harris has devoted exactly zero seconds of thought to McPherson's experience.

You're on. What's the bet?

[paulwoods13]

Sure, the jury's still out on Harris. He may still lay an egg or two in the next few games. BUT, if he maintains a level of play anywhere near his first game, then surely it's an open and shut case.

Ok. If he completes 90% of his passes week after week, with two or three TDs and no INTs, I guess it will be open and shut. But he won't do that, unfortunately. I believe he is capable of playing like an all-star and will show it in the wks to come, but that belief is based on a small bit of evidence as well as intuition. I also believe RR is more than capable of playing like an all-star, and that's based on years of evidence. Regardless it's nice to have such a problem, especially in a league where half the teams are missing their starting QB.

[Argo57]

Ok. If he completes 90% of his passes week after week, with two or three TDs and no INTs, I guess it will be open and shut. But he won't do that, unfortunately. I believe he is capable of playing like an all-star and will show it in the wks to come, but that belief is based on a small bit of evidence as well as intuition. I also believe RR is more than capable of playing like an all-star, and that's based on years of evidence. Regardless it's nice to have such a problem, especially in a league where half the teams are missing their starting QB.

This is a great opportunity for Harris to gain some much needed playing time and for the Argonauts to finally see what they have with this guy.
Watch the posted game ball clip, Harris takes the ball and immediately want to give it to the O-Line, seems like a humble team first guy....love that!!
When Ray returns he will play but if Harris continues to play consistently well it bodes well for the Argonauts future.

[AngeloV]

He may be a team first player, but he's not a fool. At 29 you don't turn down an opportunity for starters money in professional football.

If he proves to be valuable, he can get 200k to be a premier back-up. If he were to leave, I couldn't see him getting ore than 250k, until he proves he can be an 18 game starter. I think he'd stay in Toronto, even as Ray's back up.

[Argo57]

If he proves to be valuable, he can get 200k to be a premier back-up. If he were to leave, I couldn't see him getting ore than 250k, until he proves he can be an 18 game starter. I think he'd stay in Toronto, even as Ray's back up.

I also can't see the Argonauts letting another blue chip QB prospect get away.

[AngeloV]

I also can't see the Argonauts letting another blue chip QB prospect get away.

They won't. They'll give comparable starter's money to be the 2nd string. If Ray comes back healthy and is lights out, there is no way they dump him...no matter how good Harris is.

[Rich]

If he proves to be valuable, he can get 200k to be a premier back-up. If he were to leave, I couldn't see him getting ore than 250k, until he proves he can be an 18 game starter. I think he'd stay in Toronto, even as Ray's back up.

You're living in a dreamland. Every QB on the planet wants to be a starter somewhere. If he continues to play well while Ricky is hurt, there will be another team that will offer him a significant raise to be a starter next year. And he'd be a fool not to take it.

[Fumblitis]

If he proves to be valuable, he can get 200k to be a premier back-up. If he were to leave, I couldn't see him getting ore than 250k, until he proves he can be an 18 game starter. I think he'd stay in Toronto, even as Ray's back up.I doubt it. Drew Tate as an example of wanting to be a backup for decent money is rare. At 29, Harris isn't getting younger. He proves himself between now and contract time and I bet he's on his way out.

Fans have stated here that examples of McPherson and Tate. What about Reilly (BC to Edmonton), Willy (Riders to Winnipeg), and last but not least: Collaros (Toronto to the Hammer)?

[Argocister]

Fans have stated here that examples of McPherson and Tate. What about Reilly (BC to Edmonton), Willy (Riders to Winnipeg), and last but not least: Collaros (Toronto to the Hammer)?

.......leave your hands off Harris Fumbilitis!

[Fumblitis]

.......leave your hands off Harris Fumbilitis!Hey you're telling the wrong guy! Tell your friendly neighbourhood REDBLACK fan that. :). Besides I'm happy with Brett Smith thanks to Argo nation.

[argolio]

You're living in a dreamland. Every QB on the planet wants to be a starter somewhere. If he continues to play well while Ricky is hurt, there will be another team that will offer him a significant raise to be a starter next year. And he'd be a fool not to take it.If after taking everything into consideration management decides to let him go, then he'll leave and life will go on.

[Argo57]

If after taking everything into consideration management decides to let him go, then he'll leave and life will go on.

Don't see it happening this time, if Harris consistently plays at a high level the Argonauts will sign him.
Ray isn't getting any younger and coming off major surgery who knows how much he has left, can't see Ray getting anywhere close to the same contract he currently enjoys.
What I can see happening moving forward is Toronto using a 2 quarterback system to try and extend Ray's career.

[Argo]

Don't see it happening this time, if Harris consistently plays at a high level the Argonauts will sign him.
Ray isn't getting any younger and coming off major surgery who knows how much he has left, can't see Ray getting anywhere close to the same contract he currently enjoys.
What I can see happening moving forward is Toronto using a 2 quarterback system to try and extend Ray's career.

I suspect that the fact that Collaros recently moved on is significant to JB and SM: conspiring to lose in succession two curated-here, high-quality, relatively young QBs, is likely intolerable.

Assuming Harris continues to play superbly and Ray doesn't return for at least 3 more games:
1. JB and SM cross the tipping point and either the QBs effectively trade places on the depth chart or Ray is traded at a terrific premium (conditions in the league would seem to be optimum).
2. Or, Ray starts again, Harris sits, with the understanding there shall be open competition for the starting job in training camp.
3. Or, Argo57 is correct, and a genuine two-quarterback system is in play.

For various reasons, I think (1) would be more likely than the alternatives.

If you take another look at Barker's interviews this season, you may notice a (rather telling?) remark on the subject made by Barker.

In any case, development of this intriguing plot is just one more reason to cheer for Harris to continue his lights-out play.

[Rich]

Ok. If he completes 90% of his passes week after week, with two or three TDs and no INTs, I guess it will be open and shut. But he won't do that, unfortunately. I believe he is capable of playing like an all-star and will show it in the wks to come, but that belief is based on a small bit of evidence as well as intuition. I also believe RR is more than capable of playing like an all-star, and that's based on years of evidence. Regardless it's nice to have such a problem, especially in a league where half the teams are missing their starting QB.

I wouldn't set the bar so high for Harris. If he protects the ball well and delivers a majority of wins, that would be good enough for me.


Fans have stated here that examples of McPherson and Tate. What about Reilly (BC to Edmonton), Willy (Riders to Winnipeg), and last but not least: Collaros (Toronto to the Hammer)?

You have to remember Angelo's judgement is clouded by his raging Ricky Ray man-crush.


I suspect that the fact that Collaros recently moved on is significant to JB and SM: conspiring to lose in succession two curated-here, high-quality, relatively young QBs, is likely intolerable.

Assuming Harris continues to play superbly and Ray doesn't return for at least 3 more games:
1. JB and SM cross the tipping point and either the QBs effectively trade places on the depth chart or Ray is traded at a terrific premium (conditions in the league would seem to be optimum).


I can't imagine Harris starting ahead of a healthy Ricky. Not this season anyway. And if they're going trade Ricky to Edmonton or Saskatchewan for a huge premium later this year, they need to showcase him healthy and playing well.

[paulwoods13]

I wouldn't set the bar so high for Harris. If he protects the ball well and delivers a majority of wins, that would be good enough for me.

Enough to make it open and shut? Not for me. To make a good case, sure. But open and shut is way beyond a good case.

[AngeloV]

You have to remember Angelo's judgement is clouded by his raging Ricky Ray man-crush.

LOL...you're funny. So I'll ask you the same question I asked argotom. He never responded, but were you on board with ditching Matt Dunnigan in '92 to go with Ricky Foggie after his small sample size of success?

[Fumblitis]

LOL...you're funny. So I'll ask you the same question I asked argotom. He never responded, but were you on board with ditching Matt Dunnigan in '92 to go with Ricky Foggie after his small sample size of success?...and we know there's no man crush for argotom there. :)

[argotom]

LOL...you're funny. So I'll ask you the same question I asked argotom. He never responded, but were you on board with ditching Matt Dunnigan in '92 to go with Ricky Foggie after his small sample size of success?


That was a good one by Rich, but wait my buddy Angelo will never admit his man crush on RR?
That's why he goes to all of the alleged practices.
As for your question, wow 23 years ago to try to prove a point.
I have to do more research to do likewise, but I bet I won't need to go back so far and will find more examples?

[argolio]

That's why he goes to all of the alleged practices.
Alleged practices? Reading that literally, you just accused the Argos of faking or never holding practices.

[AngeloV]

That was a good one by Rich, but wait my buddy Angelo will never admit his man crush on RR?
That's why he goes to all of the alleged practices.
As for your question, wow 23 years ago to try to prove a point.
I have to do more research to do likewise, but I bet I won't need to go back so far and will find more examples?

Oh so now the man that complains of bullying on this forum is also showing to be a little homophobic? And even worse, you are piggy backing on someone else's comment. Just as I suspected...your real life level of intelligence matches your thoughtful post level, once again showing your hypocrisy.

Tell us again the one where you don't watch the NFL but know about what is happening because you are forced to watch during Sportscenter. That is my favourite one of all.

And to stay on topic....there is no way the Argos dump Ray if he comes back healthy and lights it up. If he struggles, then things will be different.

[Argo]

And to stay on topic....there is no way the Argos dump Ray if he comes back healthy and lights it up. If he struggles, then things will be different.

Yes, an underlying truth these days is that CFL teams really need two starting-quality quarterbacks, otherwise tailspin is that one injury away. Recent history could hardly be more emphatic. But two "starters" isn't easy to accommodate for any amount of time.

[argotom]

Oh so now the man that complains of bullying on this forum is also showing to be a little homophobic? And even worse, you are piggy backing on someone else's comment. Just as I suspected...your real life level of intelligence matches your thoughtful post level, once again showing your hypocrisy.

Tell us again the one where you don't watch the NFL but know about what is happening because you are forced to watch during Sportscenter. That is my favourite one of all.

And to stay on topic....there is no way the Argos dump Ray if he comes back healthy and lights it up. If he struggles, then things will be different.


You are too much!
It's true I don't watch the No Funners, but how about that Arena League?

[jerrym]

Sure, the jury's still out on Harris. He may still lay an egg or two in the next few games. BUT, if he maintains a level of play anywhere near his first game, then surely it's an open and shut case.

Yes, he lay an egg or two, but he's a winner. He' no Wally Gabler, who was a deer trapped in headlights whenever the pressure came near.

[AngeloV]

Yes, he lay an egg or two, but he's a winner. He' no Wally Gabler, who was a deer trapped in headlights whenever the pressure came near.

Are you talking Gabler senior or junior? Junior was pretty good at Guelph.

[jerrym]

Are you talking Gabler senior or junior? Junior was pretty good at Guelph.

Senior. He often froze under pressure.

[Rich]

LOL...you're funny. So I'll ask you the same question I asked argotom. He never responded, but were you on board with ditching Matt Dunnigan in '92 to go with Ricky Foggie after his small sample size of success?

I didn't follow the Argos very closely in those days, but I don't think Foggie ever had a game quite as good as Harris' last week. Foggie wasn't as good at finding receivers because I seem to remember him running all the time. So it's not an accurate comparison.

You say if Ray lights it up when he returns, he stays, and if he struggles, we dump him. But what if it's somewhere in between, what then?

I agree with you, it would be ideal if we could keep both Ray and Harris next year, but you know as well as I do that's unlikely. You seriously think they would allow Harris to sign somewhere else like Collaros did? And go into the first season of the New Era At BMO with a battle-worn 36-year-old QB backed up by Mitchell Gale?

[paulwoods13]

I didn't follow the Argos very closely in those days, but I don't think Foggie ever had a game quite as good as Harris' last week. Foggie wasn't as good at finding receivers because I seem to remember him running all the time. So it's not an accurate comparison?

Depends on how you define quite as good, I guess. Foggie had a game with seven (!) TD passes AND 100 yards rushing. Even Flutie never managed that.

[Argo]

Depends on how you define quite as good, I guess. Foggie had a game with seven (!) TD passes AND 100 yards rushing. Even Flutie never managed that.

Foggie was the Dirac delta function of CFL quarterbacks.

[AngeloV]

I didn't follow the Argos very closely in those days, but I don't think Foggie ever had a game quite as good as Harris' last week. Foggie wasn't as good at finding receivers because I seem to remember him running all the time. So it's not an accurate comparison.

You say if Ray lights it up when he returns, he stays, and if he struggles, we dump him. But what if it's somewhere in between, what then?

I agree with you, it would be ideal if we could keep both Ray and Harris next year, but you know as well as I do that's unlikely. You seriously think they would allow Harris to sign somewhere else like Collaros did? And go into the first season of the New Era At BMO with a battle-worn 36-year-old QB backed up by Mitchell Gale?

Well, I don't think Harris is going anywhere. I feel the Argos will have both he and Ray on the roster. May have to take 100k off Ray's salary and add it to Harris', but I believe they will both be around.

[doubleblue]

Harris extended in July 2014. So next year would be his option year unless he extended for two years.

[argotom]

Harris extended in July 2014. So next year would be his option year unless he extended for two years.


I guess what get's lost is the shuffle as I didn't realize how Harris is 29 years old, not exactly a real young guy per say.

[Fumblitis]

I guess what get's lost is the shuffle as I didn't realize how Harris is 29 years old, not exactly a real young guy per say.For a QB, he's just entering his prime so I wouldn't write him off as old either


Well, I don't think Harris is going anywhere. I feel the Argos will have both he and Ray on the roster. May have to take 100k off Ray's salary and add it to Harris', but I believe they will both be around.With the way QB's are dropping these days, you need two starter calibre QB's.

[ArgoRavi]

Harris extended in July 2014. So next year would be his option year unless he extended for two years.

Didn't they remove the option year from contracts with the new CBA though? His contract might expire after this season then unless he extended for longer.

[argotom]

Just watching the Peg game and looks like Willy is gone from a concussion.
Wow, we are running out of QB's in the league.


For a QB, he's just entering his prime so I wouldn't write him off as old either

I don't disagree.

[Rich]

July 2 Hamilton Vs. Winnipeg:

Collaros: 26 of 33 for 354 yds. 2 TD 0 INT

Here's hoping Harris can match or better.

[AngeloV]

July 2 Hamilton Vs. Winnipeg:

Collaros: 26 of 33 for 354 yds. 2 TD 0 INT

Here's hoping Harris can match or better.

I just hope he can lead us to a win. Stats are for losers. ZC played great last night, but the Cats offence is still being outscored by their defense and ST's.

[argotom]

July 2 Hamilton Vs. Winnipeg:

Collaros: 26 of 33 for 354 yds. 2 TD 0 INT

Here's hoping Harris can match or better.

After last week and setting the bar quite high, I can't see Harris becoming a flop?

[R.J]

IMO the time is coming for the Argos to move on from Ray, not this season or maybe even next, but it's coming soon, Ray isn't getting any younger and seems to have injury issues as of late. As for Collaros vs. Harris, realistically were a long way from knowing which one is "better". While I don't think the Argos made the right choice by letting Collaros go, but what's done is done and IMO Harris has potential, may not have the running ability of Collaros or the arm strength, but IMO has better on field vision and better mechanics. So it's a toss up for now, but Collaros isn't here and Harris is, which one should I route for ?

[ArgoZ]

IMO the time is coming for the Argos to move on from Ray, not this season or maybe even next, but it's coming soon, Ray isn't getting any younger and seems to have injury issues as of late. As for Collaros vs. Harris, realistically were a long way from knowing which one is "better". While I don't think the Argos made the right choice by letting Collaros go, but what's done is done and IMO Harris has potential, may not have the running ability of Collaros or the arm strength, but IMO has better on field vision and better mechanics. So it's a toss up for now, but Collaros isn't here and Harris is, which one should I route for ?

Once again, it's not like the Argos let him go! If unlimited funds, playing time and patience were no problem, Zack would still be here. I stand by the Argos decision of not turning your back on someone that just won you a Grey Cup and then had an MVP like season. The respect and upstanding ways this organization has treated players, will always pay off. People act like players are not real human beings and are video game characters or something. Can you imagine yourself going to a company, fulfilling all their goals and then them booting you out the door for some young hotshot? Ray will get replaced someday, but the time was definitely not right.

Collaros bounced back nicely this week. He does put some "zip" on those out patterns. I don't agree that he has better arm strength though. Harris looks the taller, bigger and stronger specimen. He throws a tight rope too, as seen last week, and his deep balls are so much better than the half side arm, lame duck looking throws, we see sometimes from Collaros. It's more of a case of different styles or mechanics, like you mentioned.

As Angelo said and Flutie would say, just get the win on the road.

[argotom]

IMO the time is coming for the Argos to move on from Ray, not this season or maybe even next, but it's coming soon, Ray isn't getting any younger and seems to have injury issues as of late. As for Collaros vs. Harris, realistically were a long way from knowing which one is "better". While I don't think the Argos made the right choice by letting Collaros go, but what's done is done and IMO Harris has potential, may not have the running ability of Collaros or the arm strength, but IMO has better on field vision and better mechanics. So it's a toss up for now, but Collaros isn't here and Harris is, which one should I route for ?

Snow good for you couldn't agree more.
But, we both better watch as the PC police will be coming after us for uttering such ridicule. lol
Those of you know who you are?
Frankly open discussion here, it is not a popularity contest.

[paulwoods13]

The jury is somewhat out on Harris's arm strength but I have seen nothing in Collaros that makes me feel his arm is particularly strong. He does have nice touch, most of the time, but does not fire rockets.

[ArgoFan1]

It will be extra sweet now to see Harris play against Collaros in Hamilton on August 3rd !! I can't wait for that one. Maybe Ricky Ray will be ready by then, but if not, that match up will be fun to watch. I'll be there.

[Mookie Fan]

The jury is somewhat out on Harris's arm strength but I have seen nothing in Collaros that makes me feel his arm is particularly strong. He does have nice touch, most of the time, but does not fire rockets.


I do think Harris's arm strength looked pretty good in the last game of 2014 against Ottawa. He made throws 20-30 yards downfield that Ricky Ray couldn't make, or to be fair at least not last year when he was playing with a shoulder injury.

As for Collaros, I think he throws pretty hard on shorter passes at times but his biggest weakness is his deep ball. Matt Dunnigan once remarked on TV that Collaros threw a "strike" into the endzone for a touchdown. I believe it was a medium length pass in a game in Calgary during that streak where the Argos won 5 (?) in a row with Collaros at QB in 2013. A game with Ricky Ray out of the lineup. Collaros doesn't throw hard all the time though in my opinion. Of course there are times when a QB should not throw a pass as hard as he can.

That said, remember when Collaros tried to throw a hail mary pass against Calgary at the end of last year's Grey Cup? The game was pretty much over as he couldn't throw the ball far enough. The only way they could have scored a TD was with a trick play or a bizarre score on a random or broken play.

[AngeloV]

Their arms look pretty equal to me, but Harris has a more compact throwing motion. ZC's strength is being able to make something out of nothing. Both look good, just different.

[argotom]

Just watching the Als game and so far this kid Cato is lights out.
Another Harris like performance.
If the Als 22-0 score holds up the east could be the beast this year.
When was the last time we said that?

[R.J]

A lot of hoopla over two words that I posted, so I'll clarify some. IMO Harris has the better overall arm, never stated that he lacks arm strength or can't throw 40 plus yards, actually I feel the opposite, Harris throws a great deep ball IMO. Collaros however throws with a lot of zip or torque, whichever word sounds better I suppose. Collaros and Reilly IMO throw similarly almost like a sling shot type of throw, however Reilly's release looks quicker than Collaros'. Just because I stated that Collaros has more arm strength doesn't mean I think he has the better arm, mechanics play a big part in it as well, kind of like golf actually when you think about it. Lastly Harris has a smaller sample size, so I'm basing my viewpoint on that, things change and probably will the more Harris plays (larger sample size).

[Argo]

Their arms look pretty equal to me, but Harris has a more compact throwing motion. ZC's strength is being able to make something out of nothing. Both look good, just different.

It looks to me that Harris has both a stronger arm and better mechanics than Collaros.

From what I've seen, Harris can make all the throws with velocity and touch as required.

[Johno27]

Their arms look pretty equal to me, but Harris has a more compact throwing motion. ZC's strength is being able to make something out of nothing. Both look good, just different.

AV, best comparison I seen so far. As far as mechanics are concerned, Collaros' throwing motion reminds me of Joe Theismann during his Argo days. And I recall Milanovich comparing Harris to Ray, and after having observed him closely at training camp, noticed how smooth and efficient his arm motion is. I did not see any evidence that he lacked arm strength either.

[argotom]

AV, best comparison I seen so far. As far as mechanics are concerned, Collaros' throwing motion reminds me of Joe Theismann during his Argo days. And I recall Milanovich comparing Harris to Ray, and after having observed him closely at training camp, noticed how smooth and efficient his arm motion is. I did not see any evidence that he lacked arm strength either.


Harris throws a better ball with a tighter spiral, plus from the one game anyway he leads the receivers more.
ZC has the legs, with the ability to roll out and make things happen with that certain sandlot intangible of winning.

[jerrym]

Harris throws a better ball with a tighter spiral, plus from the one game anyway he leads the receivers more.
ZC has the legs, with the ability to roll out and make things happen with that certain sandlot intangible of winning.

A good summary of their two skill sets.

[Rich]

I love Trevor Harris. He's a gamer, and a leader, he makes good decisions, and he's going to be a very good CFL QB.

But the evidence is in, folks. He'll never be a great one like Collaros is going to be. Surely nobody who knows anything about the game can argue otherwise. Harris will always be the Ronnie Lancaster to Collaros' Russ Jackson.

[AngeloV]

I love Trevor Harris. He's a gamer, and a leader, he makes good decisions, and he's going to be a very good CFL QB.

But the evidence is in, folks. He'll never be a great one like Collaros is going to be. Surely nobody who knows anything about the game can argue otherwise. Harris will always be the Ronnie Lancaster to Collaros' Russ Jackson.

As much as it pains me to say it, you are likely correct. Of course, if Harris had played 3 games against Creehan's D, maybe the situation would be a little different looking.
Still can't help but wonder if Collaros may take 1 last NFL shot once his contract is up.

[paulwoods13]

Based on the available evidence, Harris appears to be a solid starter but not the star Collaros seems to be. But there are enough potential variables (including the fact Collaros has almost a season's worth of additional starts under his belt, and the fact Collaros has a defence and special teams that regularly present him with the ball in good field position) that I'm not yet ready to declare the competition as over. But it's undeniable that Collaros has an undefinable "it" quality, IMO. Which may or may not make him attractive to someone down south at some point.

[Rich]

But it's undeniable that Collaros has an undefinable "it" quality, IMO. Which may or may not make him attractive to someone down south at some point.

Collaros doesn't have the arm strength that the NFL is looking for. His biggest weakness is throwing the deep ball, which is one area Harris may have an advantage.

[argonaut11xx]

If Harris was the Ticat QB, and Collaros was the Argo QB ..THIS YEAR< AT THIS POINT...the Harris lead Ticats would be in the same spot. A Collaros lead Argo team would be battling MTL for the basement in the Eastern division.

Man for man, Harris is better.

[Argo]

Based on the available evidence, Harris appears to be a solid starter but not the star Collaros seems to be. But there are enough potential variables (including the fact Collaros has almost a season's worth of additional starts under his belt, and the fact Collaros has a defence and special teams that regularly present him with the ball in good field position) that I'm not yet ready to declare the competition as over. But it's undeniable that Collaros has an undefinable "it" quality, IMO. Which may or may not make him attractive to someone down south at some point.

Too many variables over an insufficient amount of time to reach a solid conclusion within this topic. This race is still too close to call.

[argotom]

Too many variables over an insufficient amount of time to reach a solid conclusion within this topic. This race is still too close to call.


I am afraid not.
Collaros is currently the favourite by many writers for the league MOP.
On top of this if the Cats go to the GC, which right now they are the hands down favourite, and they win then that's even more of an indictment on how stupid the team was to let him go.
Where is Angelo, Paul and other of similar ilk now when their evaluation like the team blunder appears to be one of the worst in recent history.
On top of which, we developed ZC, when was the last time this could be said.
There is only a few posters here with yours truly leading the charge from the get go about holding on to a blue chipper like Zach.


Collaros doesn't have the arm strength that the NFL is looking for. His biggest weakness is throwing the deep ball, which is one area Harris may have an advantage.


May be so, but they said the same thing about Flutie.
With each game and overall experience, I do compare Zach more then a little bit with Doug.
On top of which, Zach has the same intangible like Flutie of making something out of nothing and finding a way to win.
Can't teach that as this is inbred.

[R.J]

I think it's pretty obvious who the better QB is, one is a superstar, the other is a game manager. One is the best QB in the league currently, the other seems to be regressing.
I wonder if the Argos Brass regrets letting Collaros go.

[Argo57]

Collaros doesn't have the arm strength that the NFL is looking for. His biggest weakness is throwing the deep ball, which is one area Harris may have an advantage.

I would disagree with this assessment, in fact several times this season our recievers have had to adjust to under thrown deep balls by Harris.
Collaros is much better at improvising and throwing under pressure.

[paulwoods13]

I am afraid not.
Collaros is currently the favourite by many writers for the league MOP.
On top of this if the Cats go to the GC, which right now they are the hands down favourite, and they win then that's even more of an indictment on how stupid the team was to let him go.
Where is Angelo, Paul and other of similar ilk now when their evaluation like the team blunder appears to be one of the worst in recent history.
On top of which, we developed ZC, when was the last time this could be said.
There is only a few posters here with yours truly leading the charge from the get go about holding on to a blue chipper like Zach.

I'm right here, where I always have been. Honestly, what evaluation did I make that was the worst in team history? I certainly never said the Argos should choose Harris over Collaros. I did say they should choose Ray over Collaros, and it probably won't surprise you to know I am still comfortable with that judgment even though you may consider it the greatest mistake of all time.

Like I said, Collaros has played substantially more games than Harris and has the benefit of a substantially better defence and special teams. If someone wants to anoint him a superstar and Harris a stiff, be my guest. I will hold off on making such a judgment until more evidence emerges. If Cats win the Grey Cup it won't be just because of Collaros, and there's no evidence to suggest Collaros would lead the current Argos to the grey cup.

[Argo57]

I'm right here, where I always have been. Honestly, what evaluation did I make that was the worst in team history? I certainly never said the Argos should choose Harris over Collaros. I did say they should choose Ray over Collaros, and it probably won't surprise you to know I am still comfortable with that judgment even though you may consider it the greatest mistake of all time.

Like I said, Collaros has played substantially more games than Harris and has the benefit of a substantially better defence and special teams. If someone wants to anoint him a superstar and Harris a stiff, be my guest. I will hold off on making such a judgment until more evidence emerges. If Cats win the Grey Cup it won't be just because of Collaros, and there's no evidence to suggest Collaros would lead the current Argos to the grey cup.

Doug Flutie couldn't lead this years Argos to the Grey Cup with this defence.

[argotom]

I'm right here, where I always have been. Honestly, what evaluation did I make that was the worst in team history? I certainly never said the Argos should choose Harris over Collaros. I did say they should choose Ray over Collaros, and it probably won't surprise you to know I am still comfortable with that judgment even though you may consider it the greatest mistake of all time.

Like I said, Collaros has played substantially more games than Harris and has the benefit of a substantially better defence and special teams. If someone wants to anoint him a superstar and Harris a stiff, be my guest. I will hold off on making such a judgment until more evidence emerges. If Cats win the Grey Cup it won't be just because of Collaros, and there's no evidence to suggest Collaros would lead the current Argos to the grey cup.


Again like your buddy Angelo, who is no doubt hiding, you are unwilling to admit how wrong you may have been.
Also, no one here including me have said Harris is a stiff, so that my friend is a out and out lie or misinformation at the least.
We were all hoping earlier in the year and still are that Harris is our future.
In fact, I would not let him go at year and would allow Ricky to sign elsewhere if he ever makes it back, as Trevor like Zach(now potential superstar) is a blue chip prospect.
May not be in the same category as Zach, but that jury is still out.
Most anti Collaros posters here have said there is no way they would take Zach over a sure fire a Hall of Fame player.
That was such a catastrophic blunder, one which hopefully we can recover with Harris as plan B.
Remember Kent Austin took Zach and his evaluation as a former QB was 100%.

[ArgoZ]

Again like your buddy Angelo, who is no doubt hiding, you are unwilling to admit how wrong you may have been.
Also, no one here including me have said Harris is a stiff, so that my friend is a out and out lie or misinformation at the least.
We were all hoping earlier in the year and still are that Harris is our future.
In fact, I would not let him go at year and would allow Ricky to sign elsewhere if he ever makes it back, as Trevor like Zach(now potential superstar) is a blue chip prospect.
May not be in the same category as Zach, but that jury is still out.
Most anti Collaros posters here have said there is no way they would take Zach over a sure fire a Hall of Fame player.
That was such a catastrophic blunder, one which hopefully we can recover with Harris as plan B.
Remember Kent Austin took Zach and his evaluation as a former QB was 100%.

You just can't hold in your Zach feelings huh? It's so funny reading you crush over Collaros, like he brings you some kind of vindication. Let's be clear, ONCE AGAIN: There were no anti-Zach posters on this board. We all cheered and loved having him put up wins when Ray was out. There was one particular anti-Ray poster though, who many felt the need to constantly try to correct his thinking that the Argos should bet the farm on an unproven softmore, right after Ray won us a Grey Cup and had an MVP season.

Honestly, if you love him so much, leave and go cheer the Cats, no hard feelings. It's better to be a happy Cat fan, than a constant "I told you so" bitcher around here.

[AngeloV]

Where is Angelo, Paul and other of similar ilk now when their evaluation like the team blunder appears to be one of the worst in recent history.
.

What? Can't you read? Both Paul and I already commented.

[argotom]

You just can't hold in your Zach feelings huh? It's so funny reading you crush over Collaros, like he brings you some kind of vindication. Let's be clear, ONCE AGAIN: There were no anti-Zach posters on this board. We all cheered and loved having him put up wins when Ray was out. There was one particular anti-Ray poster though, who many felt the need to constantly try to correct his thinking that the Argos should bet the farm on an unproven softmore, right after Ray won us a Grey Cup and had an MVP season.

Honestly, if you love him so much, leave and go cheer the Cats, no hard feelings. It's better to be a happy Cat fan, than a constant "I told you so" bitcher around here.


The truth hurts doesn't it?
You must have been one of those from the dark side.
I didn't bring back this posting.
However now that someone has, it's half way through the season and a review was necessary.
As the "damage" to our team is actually worse due to the MOP season he is having so far?

[R.J]

If someone wants to anoint him a superstar and Harris a stiff, be my guest. I will hold off on making such a judgment until more evidence emerges.
I never called Harris a stiff, he's an above average QB IMO, but at the same time lets call a spade a spade.
Are you saying that Collaros isn't a superstar in the CFL ?

[Argo]

"Collaros doesn't have the arm strength that the NFL is looking for." [Rich]


May be so, but they said the same thing about Flutie.

Um, no... Flutie's arm strength was never an issue on either side of the border. He was - always - too short, too short, too short, ...


Zach has the same intangible like Flutie of making something out of nothing and finding a way to win.
Can't teach that as this is inbred.

Generally, unless talking about the 2 (or 3) minute drill, very often a QB "making something out of nothing and finding a way to win" has a hell of a lot to do with his team's defence. This is something of a hallmark of Collaros' career thus far (not that he isn't a talented QB).


Based on the available evidence, Harris appears to be a solid starter but not the star Collaros seems to be. But there are enough potential variables (including the fact Collaros has almost a season's worth of additional starts under his belt, and the fact Collaros has a defence and special teams that regularly present him with the ball in good field position) that I'm not yet ready to declare the competition as over.


We were all hoping earlier in the year and still are that Harris is our future.
In fact, I would not let him go at year and would allow Ricky to sign elsewhere if he ever makes it back, as Trevor like Zach(now potential superstar) is a blue chip prospect.
May not be in the same category as Zach, but that jury is still out.


Too many variables over an insufficient amount of time to reach a solid conclusion within this topic. This race is still too close to call.

Evidently we all agree.

[argotom]

"Collaros doesn't have the arm strength that the NFL is looking for." [Rich]



Um, no... Flutie's arm strength was never an issue on either side of the border. He was - always - too short, too short, too short, ...

Yes his height was number one, with the arm strength also being of concern.
At the end of the day on both sides of the border, all he did was win in the vast majority of games.
A sandlot type of a player, sometimes making plays literally on the run.

[Argo]

Yes his height was number one, with the arm strength also being of concern.
At the end of the day on both sides of the border, all he did was win in the vast majority of games.
A sandlot type of a player, sometimes making plays literally on the run.

I recall no complaints whatsoever about Flutie's arm strength (do you have links?) - from his collegiate Hail Mary, to his first-play long bomb to Moulds in his 360 passing yards Bills playoff game. Flutie, in his last couple of seasons did tend to throw interceptions, however.

[argolio]

The truth hurts doesn't it?
You must have been one of those from the dark side.
I didn't bring back this posting.
However now that someone has, it's half way through the season and a review was necessary.
As the "damage" to our team is actually worse due to the MOP season he is having so far?How soon until you change your name to ticat-tom?

[ArgoRavi]

Collaros is proving to be a star QB but I really don't think Harris is too far behind. He has struggled a bit in recent weeks but he also engineered three TD drives in the second half the other night against a tough Ticats defence so I feel optimistic that he is getting back on track. I really liked the "bounce back" that Harris showed the other night and his willingness to take the team on his back. I realize that the Argos didn't win and that his final pass wasn't the greatest but I liked a lot of what I saw from Harris the other night and feel very good about the future with him at QB.

[Argocister]

Collaros is proving to be a star QB but I really don't think Harris is too far behind. He has struggled a bit in recent weeks but he also engineered three TD drives in the second half the other night against a tough Ticats defence so I feel optimistic that he is getting back on track. I really liked the "bounce back" that Harris showed the other night and his willingness to take the team on his back. I realize that the Argos didn't win and that his final pass wasn't the greatest but I liked a lot of what I saw from Harris the other night and feel very good about the future with him at QB.

I agree ..... Harris is just behind in playing time. Zach had struggles last year too.
Adversity will only make Harris stronger ..... just be strong in the next 2 games against the redblacks already !

[Will]

I don't know, I think you can point out the Tiger-Cats are a better all-around team than the Argos without looking like you are trying to devalue Collaros' accomplishments. I think people just want to see what Harris could do if he weren't limited by poor defense and special teams.

[ArgoRavi]

I don't know, I think you can point out the Tiger-Cats are a better all-around team than the Argos without looking like you are trying to devalue Collaros' accomplishments. I think people just want to see what Harris could do if he weren't limited by poor defense and special teams.

It certainly helps to be set up in good field position. Hamilton's first TD on Friday night came when they were set up around the Toronto 10 yard line and they also scored a FG after a blocked punt in the fourth quarter. I almost forgot about Brandon Banks' return giving Collaros a short field which Hamilton turned into a TD in the second quarter.

[Will]

It certainly helps to be set up in good field position. Hamilton's first TD on Friday night came when they were set up around the Toronto 10 yard line and they also scored a FG after a blocked punt in the fourth quarter. I almost forgot about Brandon Banks' return giving Collaros a short field which Hamilton turned into a TD in the second quarter.

It doesn't make Collaros a bad QB though is the point I'm trying to make. However, it is admittedly difficult to make that distinction clear.

[Rich]

On top of which, Zach has the same intangible like Flutie of making something out of nothing and finding a way to win.
Can't teach that as this is inbred.

I said this the day we signed Collaros. He did the same thing for three years at Cincinnati. I said it after his play in the last game of 2012. I said this guy's got a special intangible. I argued we should keep him over Ray in 2014.

But the point is, we didn't. It's done, and there's no point crying over it anymore. The takeaway should be that we shouldn't make the same mistake twice and lose Harris after this season, no matter how well Ricky Ray plays when he returns.

[TheHammer]

I almost think Zach prefers it when a play breaks down.

[gilthethrill]

I am starting to think CFL newbie Tommy Condell is a much better OC than CFL vet Marcus Brady. That can only help a qb.

[1argoholic]

Harris is like a raw rookie just getting his first real starts this year with a bunch of rookie receivers. He's done pretty well with a CRAP D doing little to help the guy out. No one expected Harris to be our starter for this long. I like both guys and it's something that The Toronto Argonauts found both of these guys. That's a shocker on it's own.

[R.J]

I am starting to think CFL newbie Tommy Condell is a much better OC than CFL vet Marcus Brady. That can only help a qb.
Milanovich calls the plays, Brady is an offensive coordinator in name only, although he does assist in the game planning.
Brady was brought in by Milo due to knowing the Trestman offense. One thing that always gets overlooked about the Trestman era is that whether it was Brady or Milanovich as the OC of the Alouettes, it was Trestman calling the plays.

[paulwoods13]

I never called Harris a stiff, he's an above average QB IMO, but at the same time lets call a spade a spade.
Are you saying that Collaros isn't a superstar in the CFL ?

I acknowledge that no one here, least of all you, ever called Harris a stiff. Unacceptable hyperbole on my part.

My views on Collaros have been stated in several posts. I think he's excellent, the leading candidate for MOP at this point and one of several reasons I expect the Tiger-Cats to get back to the Grey Cup. "Superstar" is too strong a word for him, so far, IMO. Flutie was a superstar, so was Jackson. Calvillo, Dunigan et al were stars, not superstars, IMO. So yes, I am saying Collaros is not a superstar. He may develop into one but I'll need to see further development over a longer period than the 24 or so starts he has had over his career to date.

[AngeloV]

Yes his height was number one, with the arm strength also being of concern.
At the end of the day on both sides of the border, all he did was win in the vast majority of games.
A sandlot type of a player, sometimes making plays literally on the run.

The funny thing is, for a guy that continues to say he doesn't watch of follow the NFL, you sure do seem to know what their scouting report on ZC was. Or let me guess, you heard this when TSN was forcing you to watch NFL hi-lights while waiting for CFL news. Contradictiontom strikes again.

Really, I have no idea why I get so worked up over your posts. I should take them as humour. Sadly, I think you are being serious.

[R.J]

I acknowledge that no one here, least of all you, ever called Harris a stiff. Unacceptable hyperbole on my part.

My views on Collaros have been stated in several posts. I think he's excellent, the leading candidate for MOP at this point and one of several reasons I expect the Tiger-Cats to get back to the Grey Cup. "Superstar" is too strong a word for him, so far, IMO. Flutie was a superstar, so was Jackson. Calvillo, Dunigan et al were stars, not superstars, IMO. So yes, I am saying Collaros is not a superstar. He may develop into one but I'll need to see further development over a longer period than the 24 or so starts he has had over his career to date.
See, I put Flutie as a legend, IMO the greatest football player to ever step foot on a CFL field. I see your point though, we just have differing views on what or when a player becomes a superstar.

[argotom]

The funny thing is, for a guy that continues to say he doesn't watch of follow the NFL, you sure do seem to know what their scouting report on ZC was. Or let me guess, you heard this when TSN was forcing you to watch NFL hi-lights while waiting for CFL news. Contradictiontom strikes again.

Really, I have no idea why I get so worked up over your posts. I should take them as humour. Sadly, I think you are being serious.

Unlike you though, at least I can evaluate QB talent.
On top of which then failing to admit you were wrong.
And that is no laughing matter.


I said this the day we signed Collaros. He did the same thing for three years at Cincinnati. I said it after his play in the last game of 2012. I said this guy's got a special intangible. I argued we should keep him over Ray in 2014.

But the point is, we didn't. It's done, and there's no point crying over it anymore. The takeaway should be that we shouldn't make the same mistake twice and lose Harris after this season, no matter how well Ricky Ray plays when he returns.


Bang on Rich.
What makes this difficult to swallow is the possible after effects a stupid decision like this may have on the team especially if Harris does not pan out?
Remember, Austin a recognizer of great talent, signed him right away and in my mind took no risk.
Meanwhile how about Tillman, oh yes some crazies here will say, he gave Ricky away.
The bottom line Tillman was not afraid to trade a Hall of Fame QB and that was before his rash of injuries the last few years to include the major shoulder surgery.
The one he may never recover from(plus his age factor), but some here are still saying to keep RR over Harris, how crazy is that?

[ArgoZ]

The truth hurts doesn't it?
You must have been one of those from the dark side.
I didn't bring back this posting.
However now that someone has, it's half way through the season and a review was necessary.
As the "damage" to our team is actually worse due to the MOP season he is having so far?

What truth? Did you even read my post? It's fine to have an intelligent discussion involving any teams quarterbacks, but you constantly keep on posting the same rhetoric over and over again, making enemies along the way. What's the point? Once again,,, if you are so in love with Zach, go become a Cat fan. I have never seen someone rip on their own teams Hall of Fame player, like you have. Give it up.

[1argoholic]

Collaros doesn't play by himself and as I see it thanks to Braley the Argonauts are lucky to be able to find anyone who'd want to play in TO. Collaros has been surrounded by great talent, owner, new stadium and everything coming up friggin roses in Hamilton. Ray has been injured and Harris is a backup who's played fairly well with a lack of stability from the top down in the Argos organization. Hell how many guys on this team are still learning the CFL game?

Ray still has plenty in the tank and you can't rush shoulder injuries.

[AngeloV]

Unlike you though, at least I can evaluate QB talent.
On top of which then failing to admit you were wrong.
And that is no laughing matter.

You da man, AT!! IIRC, you were also bang on with your Michael Bishop evaluation...oh wait, you pegged him as a future superstar, didn't you. Nevermind...contradictiontom strikes again.



What truth? Did you even read my post?

Not one of his strong suits.

[R.J]

Collaros doesn't play by himself and as I see it thanks to Braley the Argonauts are lucky to be able to find anyone who'd want to play in TO. Collaros has been surrounded by great talent, owner, new stadium and everything coming up friggin roses in Hamilton. Ray has been injured and Harris is a backup who's played fairly well with a lack of stability from the top down in the Argos organization. Hell how many guys on this team are still learning the CFL game?

Ray still has plenty in the tank and you can't rush shoulder injuries.
So you're saying that Collaros is only good due to the situation in Hamilton ?
IMO Collaros would have been great here as well, although my only concern would be Milanovich's offense.

[argotom]

What truth? Did you even read my post? It's fine to have an intelligent discussion involving any teams quarterbacks, but you constantly keep on posting the same rhetoric over and over again, making enemies along the way. What's the point? Once again,,, if you are so in love with Zach, go become a Cat fan. I have never seen someone rip on their own teams Hall of Fame player, like you have. Give it up.

When everything else fails with no longer a meaningful discussion possible, out comes the "go join them" nonsense.
Go grab a cry towel with Angelo and his ilk.

[Will]

So you're saying that Collaros is only good due to the situation in Hamilton ?
IMO Collaros would have been great here as well, although my only concern would be Milanovich's offense.

Collaros has absolutely helped contribute to the success of the Tiger-Cats this year, but the tools that a QB has to use is also instrumental in allowing him to reach his full potential, and Hamilton provides him with more of these tools. All I'm wanting to see (and I'm sure some other posters too) is whether or not Harris can reach that same level provided the same tools. Those tools would be (i) a return game that provides much better field position, (ii) a consistent offensive line and (iii) a better receiving corps.

If this comes across as diminishing Collaros' accomplishments then so be it, but that is certainly not my intention.

[AngeloV]

When everything else fails with no longer a meaningful discussion possible, out comes the "go join them" nonsense.
Go grab a cry towel with Angelo and his ilk.

I see you put some thought into your response to ArgoZ. Rather than comment on what he said about certain people ripping their own teams hall of fame players, you decide to insult him as well as me and people of my "ilk" (I take it that's your word of the day). At least when I insult you, I first proplerly respond to one of your posts. The rest is just a freebie.

[R.J]

Collaros has absolutely helped contribute to the success of the Tiger-Cats this year, but the tools that a QB has to use is also instrumental in allowing him to reach his full potential, and Hamilton provides him with more of these tools. All I'm wanting to see (and I'm sure some other posters too) is whether or not Harris can reach that same level provided the same tools. Those tools would be (i) a return game that provides much better field position, (ii) a consistent offensive line and (iii) a better receiving corps.

If this comes across as diminishing Collaros' accomplishments then so be it, but that is certainly not my intention.

I'll give you the return game as unquestionably Hamilton's is far better, which gives the Ticats offense much better field position, thus allowing the offensive game plan to open up, but IMO their offensive line and receivers are about the same as the Argonauts, actually I'd give Harris the edge when it comes to receivers. Now if you said coaching, then yes Hamilton also has the edge there, actually far greater than just an edge.

[Will]

I think Hamilton's offensive line has significantly improved from last season. For whatever reason they cannot handle Montreal's defensive line, but I think have been solid against every other team. The Argos offensive line started the season well, but have not been very good for the last month or so of games. I also think the Argo receiving corps has slowed down quite a bit. The Big Three are still OK, but I don't think all three are quite at the level they were earlier in the season, and Coombs and Owens struggle to find consistency whereas Hamilton has Tasker who is as reliable as they come as well as Underwood and Tolliver who have looked good as well.


Now if you said coaching, then yes Hamilton also has the edge there, actually far greater than just an edge.

I won't go any farther except to say that I feel that Milanovich and his staff have generally been outcoached by Austin and his staff in head-to-head matchups.

[R.J]

I think Hamilton's offensive line has significantly improved from last season. For whatever reason they cannot handle Montreal's defensive line, but I think have been solid against every other team. The Argos offensive line started the season well, but have not been very good for the last month or so of games. I also think the Argo receiving corps has slowed down quite a bit. The Big Three are still OK, but I don't think all three are quite at the level they were earlier in the season, and Coombs and Owens struggle to find consistency whereas Hamilton has Tasker who is as reliable as they come as well as Underwood and Tolliver who have looked good as well.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Now hopefully no one takes this the wrong way, but from my view point it seems as though Collaros' abilities and success are being downplayed due to him being on the Ticats, yet somehow Harris is treated differently because he's an Argonaut, hey I'm all for a certain amount of bias for your team and players, but the double blue glasses do have to come off from time to time. I love this team, but Collaros IMO is easily the best QB in the CFL right now, some often even overlook what Collaros was able to do while in double blue, which even then you could see he was special.

Ray vs. Collaros has sailed, IMO the Argonauts made a stupid decision, others will disagree with that and that's fine, but I have real difficulty understanding how anyone can honestly compare Collaros and Harris and seem to make excuses for the latter.

[Will]

But, let me ask you this question. You are quite critical of Milanovich and the Argos overall offensive strategy. If that is your thinking then wouldn't that inhibit Harris' potential?

[paulwoods13]

There is another factor to consider, and that is defence. Hamilton's is far and away the best in the East and probably the best in the league. They have a positive turnover differential of plus-22 or something like that. Their D has scored several TDs but has also placed Collaros in great field position, probably about as often as their great special teams. Give Harris Ham's defence and special teams and he has better stats for sure. Even if his receivers and o-line (which IMO is much worse than Hamilton's this year) stay the same.

That said, I've said before that Collaros is having an MOP season. Harris was for a while, but he's not now. I am quite prepared to concede Collaros is having a great year and is a great QB, I just don't think the specific gap between him and Harris is as great as it might appear because of the other factors that are strongly in Collaros's favour. I'd love to have Collaros right now, but I felt keeping Ricky Ray over him was justified back then, and I still feel it was based on what we knew at the time. If in one poster's eyes that makes me a horrible judge of talent, so be it.

[R.J]

But, let me ask you this question. You are quite critical of Milanovich and the Argos overall offensive strategy. If that is your thinking then wouldn't that inhibit Harris' potential?
Yes and no. A perfect example is the home game against the Riders IIRC, Harris was picked off on the same place twice, one of which was nixed by a penalty, it was his first read and a predetermined pass, so obviously a big part of that is coaching, play calling and scheme. However Harris should have known better than to throw into perfect coverage, Milanovich himself brought up after the game that they (the Riders defense) were goading Harris into making that throw. I loathe Milanovich's conservative offense and his play calling, but for some reason the offense looks better when Ray is in or even when Collaros was in, Harris looked great the first 3 games, especially week 1, not so much after that IMO. I have discussed this before, would Harris look better in Hamilton ? Maybe, but Collaros would still be Collaros if he stayed here in Toronto. As I've said before Collaros is a superstar, Harris while an above average QB IMO, is a game manager at best.

Again I'm not saying that Harris doesn't have potential or is a bad QB or anything like that, what I'm saying is that Collaros is the better QB and the Argonauts especially Milanovich made a horrible decision.

[Argo]

what Collaros was able to do while in double blue, which even then you could see he was special.

Ray vs. Collaros has sailed, IMO the Argonauts made a stupid decision, others will disagree with that and that's fine, but I have real difficulty understanding how anyone can honestly compare Collaros and Harris and seem to make excuses for the latter.

I'd have kept Collaros over Ray as well (whatever the timing and mechanics of the change): the page has to be turned; the question is when to turn it.

But it was a close call: I'd label Collaros at that time as a solid prospect with a good chance of becoming a star QB in the CFL. I certainly didn't think (or shouldn't have) labelling him "special" was warranted.

Today, it is quite easy and natural to compare Harris and Collaros. Up until recently at least, Harris was leading the CFL in several measures of QB performance, and doing so with a decidedly weaker supporting cast (although his young receivers have played well, they are league newbies, and Durie and Owens are almost always injured) - I'm speaking about the entire team.

[ArgoRavi]

Here are the current stats on cfl.ca: http://cfl.ca/statistics/league/stat/Passing/year/2015/type/reg

Harris is third in passing yardage and second only to Collaros in efficiency rating. It is almost splitting hairs at this point between Collaros and Harris although I will concede that Collaros has been a bit better. I will be surprised if Harris doesn't play at a high level when the Argos come back from their bye though.

[argotom]

Yes and no. A perfect example is the home game against the Riders IIRC, Harris was picked off on the same place twice, one of which was nixed by a penalty, it was his first read and a predetermined pass, so obviously a big part of that is coaching, play calling and scheme. However Harris should have known better than to throw into perfect coverage, Milanovich himself brought up after the game that they (the Riders defense) were goading Harris into making that throw. I loathe Milanovich's conservative offense and his play calling, but for some reason the offense looks better when Ray is in or even when Collaros was in, Harris looked great the first 3 games, especially week 1, not so much after that IMO. I have discussed this before, would Harris look better in Hamilton ? Maybe, but Collaros would still be Collaros if he stayed here in Toronto. As I've said before Collaros is a superstar, Harris while an above average QB IMO, is a game manager at best.



Again I'm not saying that Harris doesn't have potential or is a bad QB or anything like that, what I'm saying is that Collaros is the better QB and the Argonauts especially Milanovich made a horrible decision.


You better watch what you are saying here, Angelo and the thought police are going to come after you and like me will brand you a Ticat lover!!
After insulting you as after all that is their m/o.
You know these are the so called experts who can't evaluate talent.
Couldn't tell a difference between a football or rugby ball.
After all, this is their site and it's their way or the highway for the rest of us.

[R.J]

You better watch what you are saying here, Angelo and the thought police are going to come after you and like me will brand you a Ticat lover!!
After insulting you as after all that is their m/o.
You know these are the so called experts who can't evaluate talent.
Couldn't tell a difference between a football or rugby ball.
After all, this is their site and it's their way or the highway for the rest of us.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. While myself and others have often disagreed about things, I've never been bullied around here, it's a pretty respectful place.

[paulwoods13]

Yes and no. A perfect example is the home game against the Riders IIRC, Harris was picked off on the same place twice, one of which was nixed by a penalty, it was his first read and a predetermined pass, so obviously a big part of that is coaching, play calling and scheme. However Harris should have known better than to throw into perfect coverage, Milanovich himself brought up after the game that they (the Riders defense) were goading Harris into making that throw. I loathe Milanovich's conservative offense and his play calling, but for some reason the offense looks better when Ray is in or even when Collaros was in, Harris looked great the first 3 games, especially week 1, not so much after that IMO. I have discussed this before, would Harris look better in Hamilton ? Maybe, but Collaros would still be Collaros if he stayed here in Toronto. As I've said before Collaros is a superstar, Harris while an above average QB IMO, is a game manager at best.

Again I'm not saying that Harris doesn't have potential or is a bad QB or anything like that, what I'm saying is that Collaros is the better QB and the Argonauts especially Milanovich made a horrible decision.

just so we are clear -- and this is a serious question, I'm not trying to goad you -- you mean the decision to let Collaros get to free agency and to not cut or trade Ricky Ray after the 2013 season? Because keeping Collaros over Harris would only have worked with that second part of the equation, right?

[1argoholic]

I like Collaros as I used to call him Collargos. He wouldn't be putting up these numbers in TO with our so..so team. Hamilton is a much better team all around at this point. The Argos are heading south.

[R.J]

just so we are clear -- and this is a serious question, I'm not trying to goad you -- you mean the decision to let Collaros get to free agency and to not cut or trade Ricky Ray after the 2013 season? Because keeping Collaros over Harris would only have worked with that second part of the equation, right?
My apologies, I should have worded the last part differently. I meant letting Collaros go and not trading or cutting Ray after 2013.

[ArgoZ]

You better watch what you are saying here, Angelo and the thought police are going to come after you and like me will brand you a Ticat lover!!
After insulting you as after all that is their m/o.
You know these are the so called experts who can't evaluate talent.
Couldn't tell a difference between a football or rugby ball.
After all, this is their site and it's their way or the highway for the rest of us.

No one is saying you have to leave Tom. You tend to obsess to much. All we ever used to hear was how much you hated Cleo Lemon. Now, a great percentage of your posts are about how much you love Collaros. WE GET IT! I get it, I used to idolize Steve Yzerman growing up. He is the reason I became a Wings fan. If all you really want to talk about is Collaros, then it's only the right thing to go follow his team. I really think you would be happier. It seems that you struggle to enjoy this team, it's players or appreciate our Hall of Fame QB. It's fine to have your own opinions, but it's not necessary to throw Ray or any QB, under the bus by expressing them. Your method of posting irritates people. When they try to converse with you, all you do is fire back with fighting words such as "So called experts", without engaging in the debate or recognizing anything they say.

[AngeloV]

You better watch what you are saying here, Angelo and the thought police are going to come after you and like me will brand you a Ticat lover!!
After insulting you as after all that is their m/o.
You know these are the so called experts who can't evaluate talent.
Couldn't tell a difference between a football or rugby ball.
After all, this is their site and it's their way or the highway for the rest of us.

Sorry..I found this funny.

[argotom]

No one is saying you have to leave Tom. You tend to obsess to much. All we ever used to hear was how much you hated Cleo Lemon. Now, a great percentage of your posts are about how much you love Collaros. WE GET IT! I get it, I used to idolize Steve Yzerman growing up. He is the reason I became a Wings fan. If all you really want to talk about is Collaros, then it's only the right thing to go follow his team. I really think you would be happier. It seems that you struggle to enjoy this team, it's players or appreciate our Hall of Fame QB. It's fine to have your own opinions, but it's not necessary to throw Ray or any QB, under the bus by expressing them. Your method of posting irritates people. When they try to converse with you, all you do is fire back with fighting words such as "So called experts", without engaging in the debate or recognizing anything they say.


Ah that's so touching ArgoZ.
Angelo is the bully here and I refuse to capitulate to to his mean spirited insults instead of having a proper and respectful dialogue and especially when there a differences of opinion.
I have heard from other posters with the same opinion, frankly how they have had enough of the man and are leaving.
Careful what you wish for here.
Most of the others that follow the same party line at least have more class.
There is a proper and respectful way to disagree with player evaluations or frankly anything to do with our beloved Argos.

[AngeloV]

\
I have heard from other posters with the same opinion, frankly how they have had enough of the man and are leaving.


Names AT, we need names. I haven't noticed any regular posters leave. Stop making things up.

[Wobbler]

I think Tom is exaggerating, but you have been a bit relentless in your criticism lately Angelo. Maybe you could let him be wrong in peace every once in a while? ;)

[AngeloV]

I think Tom is exaggerating, but you have been a bit relentless in your criticism lately Angelo. Maybe you could let him be wrong in peace every once in a while? ;)

OK Wobbler..but only because you asked so nicely.

[argotom]

OK Wobbler..but only because you asked so nicely.

In school we used to deal with bullies like you at recess, a bloody nose later and the idiot bully was never heard from again!

[Will]

In school we used to deal with bullies like you at recess, a bloody nose later and the idiot bully was never heard from again!

If Angelo is going to try to play nice in the sandbox then we'll expect the same of you.

[Rich]

Angelo is the bully here and I refuse to capitulate to to his mean spirited insults instead of having a proper and respectful dialogue and especially when there a differences of opinion.
I have heard from other posters with the same opinion, frankly how they have had enough of the man and are leaving.
Careful what you wish for here.
Most of the others that follow the same party line at least have more class.
There is a proper and respectful way to disagree with player evaluations or frankly anything to do with our beloved Argos.

I agree completely. The constant bullying and belittling makes this site less appealing to me also.

[AngeloV]

In school we used to deal with bullies like you at recess, a bloody nose later and the idiot bully was never heard from again!

With all due respect, a lot of the regular members here know me and I'm sure they will agree when I say Good luck with that.

[T-Bone]

In school we used to deal with bullies like you at recess, a bloody nose later and the idiot bully was never heard from again!


With all due respect, a lot of the regular members here know me and I'm sure they will agree when I say Good luck with that.I don't take threats of violence lightly. I highly recommend you guys don't go there again.

Both of you need to give it a rest.


I agree completely. The constant bullying and belittling makes this site less appealing to me also.
We extremely rarely receive reported posts from users. If people have an issue with something please bring it to our attention by reporting the post.


Now can we please get this thread back on topic. Thank you.

[AngeloV]

I don't take threats of violence lightly. I highly recommend you guys don't go there again.

Both of you need to give it a rest.


We extremely rarely receive reported posts from users. If people have an issue with something please bring it to our attention by reporting the post.


Now can we please get this thread back on topic. Thank you.

You are right T-Bone. Sorry about that. Reflex action.

[argotom]

I don't take threats of violence lightly. I highly recommend you guys don't go there again.

Both of you need to give it a rest.


We extremely rarely receive reported posts from users. If people have an issue with something please bring it to our attention by reporting the post.


Now can we please get this thread back on topic. Thank you.

The man is a multi offender on this site, he has been asked before to tone it down.
Obviously he has anger management issues.
I am not the only one as you can see.
I am therefore requesting Angelo to be removed from this site or at the minimum suspended for 30 days.
With a further violation resulting in an expulsion.
You do not realize how less appealing this site has become and the ramifications of people leaving as I have mentioned.

[paulwoods13]

Yes, let's all please be civil. And may I suggest that those of us (myself included at the front of the list) who have persisted in rehashing the same arguments give it a rest ?

[ArgoRavi]

I agree with Paul that we need to be civil but this thread sure proves just how much passion some Argos fans have for their team!

[1argoholic]

OOOOH man lets not get on how many guys have been cut loose from this site. I'm sure I've been warned too many times to count and I've thought of leaving too many times to count. Right now I'm just sailing along and enjoying things for now. Everyone has their own beliefs and that's what makes the world go round and how bs flairs up on this site.

From what I understand Tom you'd need a few more people.hahaha. This is fun and don't you know bullying in BAD!!!!!

[argotom]

OOOOH man lets not get on how many guys have been cut loose from this site. I'm sure I've been warned too many times to count and I've thought of leaving too many times to count. Right now I'm just sailing along and enjoying things for now. Everyone has their own beliefs and that's what makes the world go round and how bs flairs up on this site.

From what I understand Tom you'd need a few more people.hahaha. This is fun and don't you know bullying in BAD!!!!!


#1 heck we all have different opinions isn't that the beauty about human beings.
We are all passionate about the Argos and no question each of us are Monday morning QB's!
Just think what this world would be like if we all thought the same, e.g. North Korea, Soviet Union etc..
However when civility is at stake and you get over the top in your face from Angelo and he has done it before.
Enough is enough.
It's either moving on again, or frankly like others moving out!

[argolio]

Speaking of a lack of civility, karma may have just struck Collaros for that classless wave he gave to the Argos.

[1971GreyCup]

Might need to change this thread to Matthews vs. Harris. Wouldn't be surprise dig Mitchell Gale gets a call on Monday from Hamilton.

[argotom]

Of course we wish him the best, but if Zach is done for the season this may change the complexion of the East division with an interesting finish.
Our Argos therefore have to improve all facets of their game.

[1971GreyCup]

Will have to see how powerful Hamilton is with their backup QBs. Trevor has played so long, I've forgotten that he is our backup QB. 11 games mostly away, too.

Trevor Harris and Chad Owens both immediately tweeted prayers to Zach.

Oops, Mathews just put his team in a deep hole with a pick 6!

[argonaut11xx]

Oops, Mathews just put his team in a deep hole with a pick 6!

Karma...1Argoholic...you nailed it.

[1971GreyCup]

This Ticat team doesn't look like a 1st place team anymore. Their other QBs aren't protecting the lead and in fact are throwing away the game. Their season may rest with the prognosis of Zach's health.

[argotom]

The Cats are a way different team as are most with back ups.
But the 2 QB stiff backups gave this game away.
The east division may have drastically changed.

[R.J]

Of course we wish him the best, but if Zach is done for the season this may change the complexion of the East division with an interesting finish.
Our Argos therefore have to improve all facets of their game.
I agree, depending on how long Collaros is out for, the East just blew wide open.

[ArgoRavi]

I recall when Area 51 was being critical of Steinauer's defence in Toronto in 2011 how Byron Parker would come on here and tell him that the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of the offence made a difference in how aggressive you can be on defence. With Collaros out for a while at least, not only will that weaken the Hamilton offence considerably but may also have an effect on their defensive play.

One other thing I will say right now is that Ricky Ray has been criticized by some on here for being "injury-prone" but Collaros has now suffered his second serious injury in two years with this one being a non-contact one at that. Does that make Collaros "injury-prone"?

[AngeloV]

The Cats are a way different team as are most with back ups.
But the 2 QB stiff backups gave this game away.
The east division may have drastically changed.

Ok, so you've seen these guys play in a game, likely having no reps in practice most of the year, and determine that they are stiffs? Wow. Biting my tongue.

[argotom]

Ok, so you've seen these guys play in a game, likely having no reps in practice most of the year, and determine that they are stiffs? Wow. Biting my tongue.

Tonight anyway.
As a professional back ups, that was horrid especially for Matthews.
That's not acceptable under any possibility.
I count the two combined gave the Esks 3 direct TD's, plus there was a 4th being a pick in the end zone.
That was Christmas coming early for the Esks, plus the injury to Zach.

[Antwon]

Ok, so you've seen these guys play in a game, likely having no reps in practice most of the year, and determine that they are stiffs? Wow. Biting my tongue.

Hold on here! People say Austin and Crandel are great with their offence game plan....with a great QB like Collaros. But Austin doesn't look so smart now. Many across the league have criticized Austin for leaving Collaros in late games with big leads. Not letting the rookies get some game time. Think it just bit him in the ass!
The two backup not only crapped the bed, they rolled in it as well.

First place just opened up for the taking.

[Argo]

Every CFL game another QB bites the dust. Yes, exaggeration - but not much! - what a year for QB carnage.
Good for Harris: he's managed to stay in one piece.
Speaking of durability and skillful self-preservation, neither Good Hank nor Bad Hank ever seem to get injured.

[Argo57]

Ok, so you've seen these guys play in a game, likely having no reps in practice most of the year, and determine that they are stiffs? Wow. Biting my tongue.

Was at the Ticat game, seemingly innocent play Collaros got hurt on, not a doctor by any means but would be shocked if he is out for any length of time judging by how he was moving around on the sidelines.

[argotom]

Was at the Ticat game, seemingly innocent play Collaros got hurt on, not a doctor by any means but would be shocked if he is out for any length of time judging by how he was moving around on the sidelines.

It was mentioned on TV how the Cats indicated it was ACL.
Severity of course is not known.

[Antwon]

Was at the Ticat game, seemingly innocent play Collaros got hurt on, not a doctor by any means but would be shocked if he is out for any length of time judging by how he was moving around on the sidelines.

Suspected ACL.

[Argo57]

Suspected ACL.

I was gone by halftime, boring game, told you I am no doctor.
Some eloquent quotes I heard as he fell were "Zach fell and went boom boom" and "Football thrower hurt, me mad" and of course "Argos suck".

[argotom]

Wow,maybe the thread should also include Henry Burris.
Hank is on fire.
Nearly 500 yards passing in the exciting win over the Riders..
An MOP possibility especially if Zach is out for a while.
How about the RedBlacks could they now factor in for first?

[AngeloV]

Tonight anyway.
As a professional back ups, that was horrid especially for Matthews.
That's not acceptable under any possibility.
I count the two combined gave the Esks 3 direct TD's, plus there was a 4th being a pick in the end zone.
That was Christmas coming early for the Esks, plus the injury to Zach.

Not saying they were good today, just saying "stiffs" is a little harsh after 1 performance.

[gilthethrill]

We will see how good inexperienced qb,s can do under an offence that can't run the ball. Ray Holley as your starting RB? I think Hamilton O-line will be exposed now that Collaros is not back there buying time.

[argotom]

The East may turn out to be a dog fight after all.
Heck, after their impressive win yesterday, Ottawa may be the team to beat?

[AngeloV]

The East may turn out to be a dog fight after all.
Heck, after their impressive win yesterday, Ottawa may be the team to beat?

Ottawa certainly also gets a boost with an extra home game against a divisional rival, and the fact that they have yet to play Hamilton, so both of their games may be against a Collaros-less Ticats team.


I was gone by halftime, boring game, told you I am no doctor.
Some eloquent quotes I heard as he fell were "Zach fell and went boom boom" and "Football thrower hurt, me mad" and of course "Argos suck".

Hamilton English 101--Caveman edition.

[R.J]

One other thing I will say right now is that Ricky Ray has been criticized by some on here for being "injury-prone" but Collaros has now suffered his second serious injury in two years with this one being a non-contact one at that. Does that make Collaros "injury-prone"?
Not yet, depends on the injury status of last nights game and whether or not Collaros can stay healthy next season. Seems as though Burris is the only QB in the CFL that knows how to stay healthy. I also disagree with the subtle insinuation that Ray hasn't become injury prone since arriving to Toronto. Ray has played in 14, 11, 17 and 0 games as a Argo, now last season was a healthy season up until the shoulder injury that has essentially knocked him out this season. Please explain how Ray hasn't become injury prone late in his career. IMO to say otherwise is the equivalent of stating that Waters isn't injury prone for a kicker.

[AngeloV]

Not yet, depends on the injury status of last nights game and whether or not Collaros can stay healthy next season. Seems as though Burris is the only QB in the CFL that knows how to stay healthy. I also disagree with the subtle insinuation that Ray hasn't become injury prone since arriving to Toronto. Ray has played in 14, 11, 17 and 0 games as a Argo, now last season was a healthy season up until the shoulder injury that has essentially knocked him out this season. Please explain how Ray hasn't become injury prone late in his career. IMO to say otherwise is the equivalent of stating that Waters isn't injury prone for a kicker.

With the number of injuries happening to the QB position in general, I don't think it's fair to label any QB's as injury prone. It's just something that has been happening.

[Will]

With the number of injuries happening to the QB position in general, I don't think it's fair to label any QB's as injury prone. It's just something that has been happening.

Very true--one could label Collaros, Ray, Lulay, Willy and Durant as being especially injury prone.

[Argo57]

With the number of injuries happening to the QB position in general, I don't think it's fair to label any QB's as injury prone. It's just something that has been happening.

With today's defensive schemes (except the Argos) the QB is under more pressure than ever.

[R.J]

With the number of injuries happening to the QB position in general, I don't think it's fair to label any QB's as injury prone. It's just something that has been happening.


Very true--one could label Collaros, Ray, Lulay, Willy and Durant as being especially injury prone.
I don't recall anyone here stating that Ray was the only QB in the CFL that gets injured. There's clearly an issue with QB's staying healthy in the last couple of years, but that shouldn't mean that Ray's injury history in an Argo uniform be overlooked or ignored, as seems to happen around here.

[argotom]

It certainly looks and hopefully this year is an anomaly for the unbelievable QB injuries.
Only Hank and Bo Levi have played every game.
Not only does each team need a proven 2nd stringer, this can also be said for a competent 3rd and PR position.
Something the Cats (showed yesterday) and really Winnipeg have lacked.

[Argo57]

It certainly looks and hopefully this year is an anomaly for the unbelievable QB injuries.
Only Hank and Bo Levi have played every game.
Not only does each team need a proven 2nd stringer, this can also be said for a competent 3rd and PR position.
Something the Cats (showed yesterday) and really Winnipeg have lacked.

Boy Tom, suddenly the Argonauts QB situation (promising prospect and future Hall of Famer as backup) doesn't look so bad and is the envy of the league who'd a thunk it eh???

[ArgoRavi]

It certainly looks and hopefully this year is an anomaly for the unbelievable QB injuries.
Only Hank and Bo Levi have played every game.
Not only does each team need a proven 2nd stringer, this can also be said for a competent 3rd and PR position.
Something the Cats (showed yesterday) and really Winnipeg have lacked.

Is this year an anomaly though? I seem to recall lots of QB injuries last year too. Even back in '07, Kerry Joseph was the only QB to start every one of his team's regular season and playoff games and, not surprisingly, his team won a Grey Cup as a result.

[argotom]

Is this year an anomaly though? I seem to recall lots of QB injuries last year too. Even back in '07, Kerry Joseph was the only QB to start every one of his team's regular season and playoff games and, not surprisingly, his team won a Grey Cup as a result.


It does seem the number of injuries to starting QB's is more then ever.
I heard there have been 10 back up starters so far.

[ArgoZ]

It certainly looks and hopefully this year is an anomaly for the unbelievable QB injuries.
Only Hank and Bo Levi have played every game.
Not only does each team need a proven 2nd stringer, this can also be said for a competent 3rd and PR position.
Something the Cats (showed yesterday) and really Winnipeg have lacked.

Sounds like you would appreciate the Argonauts situation. They have a Hall of Fame starter, now a proven backup, very competent 3rd in McPherson and the highly touted Kilgore on PR.

[R.J]

Boy Tom, suddenly the Argonauts QB situation (promising prospect and future Hall of Famer as backup) doesn't look so bad and is the envy of the league who'd a thunk it eh???

The Calgary Stampeders also say hello.

[argonaut11xx]

Zach is out for the season

http://www.tsn.ca/collaros-out-for-the-season-with-torn-acl-1.364293

Harris wins

[Argo57]

The Calgary Stampeders also say hello.

They're ok I guess.

[R.J]

They're ok I guess.
If having a 25 year old QB who has won a Grey Cup and Grey Cup MOP, along with a QB that would be a starter on most CFL teams is just okay, I'll take okay.

[Argo57]

If having a 25 year old QB who has won a Grey Cup and Grey Cup MOP, along with a QB that would be a starter on most CFL teams is just okay, I'll take okay.

Sarcasm??
Point being Toronto's QB situation moving forward is at the top of the league, unfortunately they are springing leaks in other areas (especially the D).

[1argoholic]

Collaros is getting serious injuries at a young age especially with the way he plays. Might end up being another Buck Pierce.

[Antwon]

Collaros is getting serious injuries at a young age especially with the way he plays. Might end up being another Buck Pierce.

Really sorry to see him go down when he was having a MOP season. But next year he needs to use the hook slide when he scrambles and avoid unnecessary hits. Or else he will have short injury prone career.

[R.J]

Sarcasm??
Point being Toronto's QB situation moving forward is at the top of the league, unfortunately they are springing leaks in other areas (especially the D).
A bit yes, but I'd take Calgary's situation currently over the Argonauts. Ray is currently only 85%, even Ray verified that while he can go in if absolutely necessary, he's nowhere near ready to be "the guy". So the Argonauts current situation is Harris and McPherson, sorry, but I'd take Mitchell and Tate over those two any day of the week.

[Argo]

Really sorry to see him go down when he was having a MOP season. But next year he needs to use the hook slide when he scrambles and avoid unnecessary hits. Or else he will have short injury prone career.

Generally true, but not really applicable to this injury. Collars had no idea he was about to be pasted by a pursuer.

[ArgoRavi]

Generally true, but not really applicable to this injury. Collars had no idea he was about to be pasted by a pursuer.

It looks like Collaros' injury was a non-contact one. He injured his knee when he tried planting his right leg and the contact had nothing to do with the ACL injury.

[Argo57]

A bit yes, but I'd take Calgary's situation currently over the Argonauts. Ray is currently only 85%, even Ray verified that while he can go in if absolutely necessary, he's nowhere near ready to be "the guy". So the Argonauts current situation is Harris and McPherson, sorry, but I'd take Mitchell and Tate over those two any day of the week.

Not arguing the Calgary situation.

[1971GreyCup]

Certainly the Argos players will appreciate the BMO turf next year. I don't know about the wear and tear caused by football, but I doubt you'll see injuries like Collaro's ACLU.

[argotom]

Sarcasm??
Point being Toronto's QB situation moving forward is at the top of the league, unfortunately they are springing leaks in other areas (especially the D).

How do you figure?
Just read in the Sun how Ray has had a setback again.
He may never play again for all we know, and he is a FA at year end.
I would be shocked if they signed him over Harris, again another mistake.

[Argo]

Ray has had a setback again.
He may never play again for all we know, and he is a FA at year end.
I would be shocked if they signed him over Harris, again another mistake.

No chance that Ray is signed instead of Harris.


It looks like Collaros' injury was a non-contact one. He injured his knee when he tried planting his right leg and the contact had nothing to do with the ACL injury.

I will have to look at the highlight again to see if the injury would have occurred absent contact by the pursuer (which is, I believe, what you're saying).

[AngeloV]

I will have to look at the highlight again to see if the injury would have occurred absent contact by the pursuer (which is, I believe, what you're saying).

Oh, he was definitely injured before the contact. You can see the way his leg bent in the turf prior to that point.

[ArgoRavi]

How do you figure?
Just read in the Sun how Ray has had a setback again.
He may never play again for all we know, and he is a FA at year end.
I would be shocked if they signed him over Harris, again another mistake.

I don't think that Ray has had a setback. He just isn't 100% yet. Apparently he is at 85% but progressing.

[Antwon]

It looks like Collaros' injury was a non-contact one. He injured his knee when he tried planting his right leg and the contact had nothing to do with the ACL injury.

Read this in Kirk Penton's article today. Interesting.

An interesting tweet emerged in the hours following Collaros’ injury, and it came from another player who has torn his ACL at Hamilton’s new park.
“Tim Horton field is sticky,” Eskimos slotback Shamawd Chambers wrote Saturday afternoon.
Chambers recently returned to practice after tearing his ACL last fall at THF and he’s not the only one. Alouettes quarterback Dan LeFevour also tore his ACL when he was with the Tabbies, and Bombers pivot Drew Willy suffered a tibial plateau fracture and a partial PCL tear. Both were on plays where they simply planted their feet.
Could there be a turf problem at THF?

[gilthethrill]

Read this in Kirk Penton's article today. Interesting.

An interesting tweet emerged in the hours following Collaros’ injury, and it came from another player who has torn his ACL at Hamilton’s new park.
“Tim Horton field is sticky,” Eskimos slotback Shamawd Chambers wrote Saturday afternoon.
Chambers recently returned to practice after tearing his ACL last fall at THF and he’s not the only one. Alouettes quarterback Dan LeFevour also tore his ACL when he was with the Tabbies, and Bombers pivot Drew Willy suffered a tibial plateau fracture and a partial PCL tear. Both were on plays where they simply planted their feet.
Could there be a turf problem at THF?

LeFevour suffered his injury during a game that was being played at Ron Joyce Stadium.

[1971GreyCup]

Good article Edinboro article today on Trevor Harris's success in the CFL. http://www.edinboronow.com/article/former-scots-quarterback-playing-for-cfl-talks-edinboro-days-and-new-career

[Argo]

Good article Edinboro article today on Trevor Harris's success in the CFL. http://www.edinboronow.com/article/former-scots-quarterback-playing-for-cfl-talks-edinboro-days-and-new-career

There isn't too much wrong with Harris... and he seems to be durable, playing every game and making it through some rather heavy hits.
Once he gets away from locking in on a receiver and poorly selling the run fake, he'll become a fully-fledged CFL star QB (if he isn't already).

[ArgoRavi]

There isn't too much wrong with Harris... and he seems to be durable, playing every game and making it through some rather heavy hits.
Once he gets away from locking in on a receiver and poorly selling the run fake, he'll become a fully-fledged CFL star QB (if he isn't already).

With a strong final 7 games, Harris could well be MOP for the east, if not the entire league, this season.

[jerrym]

Here is a good article on how Harris's success is not simply years of backup experience but on dedication to improving his weaknesses.



Anyone who has ever seen Trevor Harris go through his pre-game routine will see how he spends time working on his footwork, the foundation for every throw a quarterback attempts.
At times, Harris’ footwork is off, leading to errant throws. It’s a flaw that led to one of the two interceptions he threw in Ottawa during their most recent game when the Argos earned a well-deserved and big-time win.
“What we like him to do, and you can’t do it all the time, is what we call tracking the receiver with your body,’’ began Argos head coach Scott Milanovich, a one-time quarterback. “If you fight your body and your hips, it makes you less accurate. The best of them (quarterbacks) do it and it’s something he (Harris) continues to work on.”
Every once in a while during practice, Harris is picked off when his fundamentals are poor.
In Ottawa, RedBlacks linebacker Damaso Munoz produced a pick six off Harris for just that reason.
“He was off his spot,’’ said Milanovich. “He was kind of in the middle of running and throwing.”
What Milanovich now requires from Harris is to be clean which, in football, means protecting the football and making good decisions.
“He has to eliminate turnovers,’’ said the coach. “I like to see him with a clean scorecard.”


http://www.torontosun.com/2015/10/03/argos-harris-trying-to-keep-in-step