Argonauts under centre: the QB situation going forward.

[bluto]

The purpose of this thread is for the discussion of two things:

1. When Ricky Ray returns from rehab, who is the Toronto Argonauts #1 QB?

2. Beyond this season, who is the Toronto Argonauts #1 QB, who is under contract, and what happens to the other QBs on our current roster?

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Trevor+Harris+Ottawa+Redblacks+v+Toronto+Argonauts +Iu133m5Spg-l.jpg

Trevor Harris. Current #1. Has us on top of the league despite our schedule and injuries. 29 years old. On his second contract with Toronto. Was among the league players of the week 3 times out of 4 weeks played so far this season.

http://www.cbc.ca/polopoly_fs/1.1581940.1379104058!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_620/sp-940-ricky-ray.jpg

Professor Ricky Ray. #1 everywhere he's been since Jason Maas got hurt in 2002. 36 years old. Lost #1 spot to shoulder surgery. All time great. Arguably the most efficient passer ever. On a $400k + bonus contract.

Can we keep both? If not, what's our move?

[paulwoods13]

There are still four or five games before RR returns, so lots of time for things to change. But assuming TH continues to play at his current level, I would support starting TH initially, ensuring RR gets gradually increasing amounts of playing time each week. When RR's fully healthy and has seen a fair bit of carefully managed game action in relief, he goes back to being No. 1. You don't lose your job because of injury, you lose it because of performance, and his most recent performances were arguably as good or better than TH has been this season.

That said, you start talking to TH right now about an extension with the goal of getting him signed beyond this season to a contract that would work if he is the undisputed No. 1 QB with inexperienced backups, OR he is one of two starting-calibre QBs (i.e. in the $300k range). And you have a heart-to-heart with RR to say we want you back in this offence that was made for your skill set, but it will be in a two-QB system and your salary will need to reflect that. If he says absolutely not, get TH signed and let RR walk or change his mind later. (And I reserve the right to change MY mind on this over the next month or two.)

[Will]

After consideration, the thread will be re-separated. However, given that the other thread on a similar topic was heated we will be monitoring this one closely.

[mchesher03]

someone said it on another thread...

the argos (subject to a massive downturn in fortune obviously) are a legitimate contender for the Grey Cup. Definitely the class of the east and have not yet played a home game and sit at 3-1. When Ricky comes back, you do whatever you have to do to get the Double Blue back in the Grey Cup. Boring answer but I trust our coaches to make the right decision, same goes with beyond this year and Jim Barker. We can sit here and second guess them all we want but I trust them making the decisions more than I'd trust myself.

[AngeloV]

Argos need to find a way to sign both. Calgary IMO is the only team in the league with 2 legit starter types on their roster. It's no wonder they won it all last year.

For starters, if Harris continues to perform the way he has, and I see no evidence he won't, the Argos need to extend him in season. I believe if he was offered 2+ years at 300k each, he would take it. It would make him a top 4 paid QB in the league despite only having a handful of starts.

After the season is over, depending on health, you would then offer Ray a similar type contract (perhaps with added incentives). At that point, it will be a competition as to who wins the starting job.

I don't see a QB controversy happening here, as both seem like great team guys, with a good management team behind them, unlike the 2008 Bishop/Joseph drama.

When/if Ray comes back healthy this season, you give him every opportunity to prove that he should be the starter. If he isn't at the level you hope, you go to Harris.

[Argo]

someone said it on another thread...

the argos (subject to a massive downturn in fortune obviously) are a legitimate contender for the Grey Cup. Definitely the class of the east and have not yet played a home game and sit at 3-1. When Ricky comes back, you do whatever you have to do to get the Double Blue back in the Grey Cup. Boring answer but I trust our coaches to make the right decision, same goes with beyond this year and Jim Barker. We can sit here and second guess them all we want but I trust them making the decisions more than I'd trust myself.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


Argos need to find a way to sign both. Calgary IMO is the only team in the league with 2 legit starter types on their roster. It's no wonder they won it all last year.

For starters, if Harris continues to perform the way he has, and I see no evidence he won't, the Argos need to extend him in season. I believe if he was offered 2+ years at 300k each, he would take it. It would make him a top 4 paid QB in the league despite only having a handful of starts.

After the season is over, depending on health, you would then offer Ray a similar type contract (perhaps with added incentives). At that point, it will be a competition as to who wins the starting job.

I don't see a QB controversy happening here, as both seem like great team guys, with a good management team behind them, unlike the 2008 Bishop/Joseph drama.

When/if Ray comes back healthy this season, you give him every opportunity to prove that he should be the starter. If he isn't at the level you hope, you go to Harris.

Assuming that this sort of scenario unfolds, and it's a "coin toss" as to who should be #1 to start next season, then logic demands that the seven year younger star QB be selected.

[bluto]

Argos need to find a way to sign both. Calgary IMO is the only team in the league with 2 legit starter types on their roster. It's no wonder they won it all last year.

For starters, if Harris continues to perform the way he has, and I see no evidence he won't, the Argos need to extend him in season. I believe if he was offered 2+ years at 300k each, he would take it. It would make him a top 4 paid QB in the league despite only having a handful of starts.

After the season is over, depending on health, you would then offer Ray a similar type contract (perhaps with added incentives). At that point, it will be a competition as to who wins the starting job.

I don't see a QB controversy happening here, as both seem like great team guys, with a good management team behind them, unlike the 2008 Bishop/Joseph drama.

When/if Ray comes back healthy this season, you give him every opportunity to prove that he should be the starter. If he isn't at the level you hope, you go to Harris.

for any Argo supporter, this would of course be the ideal situation. the problem is that agents and other teams' GMs get into it and suddenly, signing in Toronto might cost you $150k/season... and if you're Harris and Ray re-signs with the promise of an open competition, maybe you think that it's both money and development experience you're missing out on... he's 29, his time is now... so if he or his agent feel like going to any of the several teams who would be thrilled to sew a 7 on their jersey for you is what's best... then that is what happens.

i'd love to have both... but the only circumstances where i see it as possible is with a (Flutie forbid) surgery diminished RR accepting a #2 role and the paycheque that goes with it.

because if they both are healthy and eager... Harris has his futre to look out for, and Ray has his place in history to secure with 2 seasons more of top play.

[Argo]

for any Argo supporter, this would of course be the ideal situation. the problem is that agents and other teams' GMs get into it and suddenly, signing in Toronto might cost you $150k/season... and if you're Harris and Ray re-signs with the promise of an open competition, maybe you think that it's both money and development experience you're missing out on... he's 29, his time is now... so if he or his agent feel like going to any of the several teams who would be thrilled to sew a 7 on their jersey for you is what's best... then that is what happens.

i'd love to have both... but the only circumstances where i see it as possible is with a (Flutie forbid) surgery diminished RR accepting a #2 role and the paycheque that goes with it.

because if they both are healthy and eager... Harris has his futre to look out for, and Ray has his place in history to secure with 2 seasons more of top play.

Good post. Opportunity has knocked for Harris and he has answered. His time really is now. If Harris can lead the Argos to the Grey Cup, I have no problem with him leading the Argos to the Grey Cup : ))

Harris will be an unconditional starter in the CFL next season. It had better be in Toronto than not.

[AngeloV]

for any Argo supporter, this would of course be the ideal situation. the problem is that agents and other teams' GMs get into it and suddenly, signing in Toronto might cost you $150k/season... and if you're Harris and Ray re-signs with the promise of an open competition, maybe you think that it's both money and development experience you're missing out on... he's 29, his time is now... so if he or his agent feel like going to any of the several teams who would be thrilled to sew a 7 on their jersey for you is what's best... then that is what happens.

i'd love to have both... but the only circumstances where i see it as possible is with a (Flutie forbid) surgery diminished RR accepting a #2 role and the paycheque that goes with it.

because if they both are healthy and eager... Harris has his futre to look out for, and Ray has his place in history to secure with 2 seasons more of top play.

You may be right. I don't know what is going to happen obviously. This is just what I would do. Remember, Drew Tate easily could have signed with Ottawa last year to likely be their starter. He chose to stay with Calgary as the back up because Calgary paid him very good money to be the back up.

I like Harris a lot and defended him when the Zach attack members here complained that he wasn't good. Happy feet is the classic line I remember.

Having said that, the way QB's have been going down, you need 2 capable starters. That's why I suggest paying them each in the 300k neighbourhood. If Harris is offered that mid season, I suspect he will sign. If that isn't in the cards for Ray, then you need to find someone else that's capable to cmpliment Harris. I have always said that Ray should be the starter, but it has to be a good team fit going forward after this season.

The funny thing here is that everybody seems to think Harris is going to get a huge payday at season's end. I don't see him getting more than the 300k the Argos would offer in my scenario. Collaros sure didn't. Reilly didn't when he first went to Edmonton. He had to have 2 years of solid play before he got that big contract. He would still be a big risk for another team to throw huge money at, because there is a possibility that he is great in the Argos system, but not might be in another.

It's the nature of sports. We tend to overrate what our own teams players are worth, and how much they will sign for.

[Will]

Answer to #1: It really depends on what the standings look like when Ricky Ray is ready to return. If Harris continues to play well and team continues to win then I don't really see how you can take him out of the starting lineup. The east is tighter and every win counts. Not that #15 is capable, but I wouldn't want to test the notion mid-season. Obviously, it's a different situation if Harris struggles. Neither Harris or Ray can determine where the defense goes, however.

Long-term, Angelo's scenario sounds great. If it isn't plausible, I'd lean towards Harris at this point. Either way, it's definitely a tougher decision than with Collaros and Ray from 2013.

[doubleblue]

I don't know what the SMS cap is next year. Don't think it goes up too much, something like 50 or 100,00. But maybe the new well heeled ownership can come up with some creative way to reward Harris with starter money and keep Ricky as well. How about a playing Coach position. 2K for playing and 2k for Coaching, or maybe a Vice-President position with Bad Boys. lol
I'm sure Jon Cornish doesn't have to report his Bank job salary in the Cap.

[AngeloV]

I don't know what the SMS cap is next year. Don't think it goes up too much, something like 50 or 100,00. But maybe the new well heeled ownership can come up with some creative way to reward Harris with starter money and keep Ricky as well. How about a playing Coach position. 2K for playing and 2k for Coaching, or maybe a Vice-President position with Bad Boys. lol
I'm sure Jon Cornish doesn't have to report his Bank job salary in the Cap.

I don't think that is allowed anymore. Would be nice. Pay someone to be manager of turning the lights on and off at the ACC. LOL!!

I think the Argos can easily pay the 2 a combined 600k and still be in good shape with the SMS.

[Neely2005]

I don't think that is allowed anymore. Would be nice. Pay someone to be manager of turning the lights on and off at the ACC. LOL!!

I think the Argos can easily pay the 2 a combined 600k and still be in good shape with the SMS.

Yeah I don't think that we're exactly spending to the Cap now so we should have space for both, especially if Ray takes a pay cut to stay.

[ArgoGabe22]

They can and should sign both. They could even give TH a somewhat generous salary for a backup (not 300-400k) and even offer incentives and roster bonuses. They could do this to both in a perfect world but anyone can object to such deal. I'm 99.9% positive that Kevin Glenn has a lower base salary with lots of roster bonuses.

[1argoholic]

When Ray gets back and starts to shred other teams D's with his pin point passing no one will be talking about trading him. You try and sign both and Harris has a great outlook knowing that Ricky is the true number one still. Perhaps Ray would be content to fall to second in a year or two.

[Ron]

Harris looks good in the current system. But other than maybe Ottawa i don't see anyone wanting to make Harris their starter next season.

[Argo57]

Harris looks good in the current system. But other than maybe Ottawa i don't see anyone wanting to make Harris their starter next season.

Saskatchewan??
Achilles injury tough to recover from (Durant), Glenn mediocre at best, then who??

[Will]

Saskatchewan??
Achilles injury tough to recover from (Durant), Glenn mediocre at best, then who??

I don't envision Saskatchewan doing anything drastic with Durant in the interim.

[jerrym]

There are still four or five games before RR returns, so lots of time for things to change. But assuming TH continues to play at his current level, I would support starting TH initially, ensuring RR gets gradually increasing amounts of playing time each week. When RR's fully healthy and has seen a fair bit of carefully managed game action in relief, he goes back to being No. 1. You don't lose your job because of injury, you lose it because of performance, and his most recent performances were arguably as good or better than TH has been this season.

This makes the most sense to me as it gives the Argos the best 1-2 QB combination in the league for a Grey Cup run and leaves us with a top game-ready QB even if one of them is injured.

[Argo57]

I don't envision Saskatchewan doing anything drastic with Durant in the interim.

Talking next season IF Durant doesn't respond well in rehab, with those injuries who knows??

[Stevoman]

Roll with the hot hand. If we are winning and Harris is continuing to perform as he has been this season, keep him under centre.

[jerrym]

Harris looks good in the current system. But other than maybe Ottawa i don't see anyone wanting to make Harris their starter next season.

While I think future Hall-of-Famer Ray should be the number one QB when he returns, I bet there are a number of teams (Ottawa, Montreal, and BC because of Lulay's injury history at least) that would be willing to give him a shot at starter.

[larz-7]

This is Ray's team.I personally would love to see both him and Harris back next year.Can the new owners find a way,sure they can as they will want a name that is familiar to market the team.It is also too early to just say this is now Harris.s team.

[Argo]

Much as there is to appreciate about Ray - obviously a great deal - there is this four-letter word... time.

If Harris continues his stellar audition, no worries, Barker and Milanovich are not idiots.
Next season, if unfortunately it comes down to either Harris or Ray, then the Trevor Harris era will have formally begun.

[Argocister]

After tonight's game at THF the Harris takeover will be set back a bit ..... Time will tell.

[R.J]

IMO the Argos will have to make a choice at season's end, as I really don't see Harris or Ray willing to be a back-up, especially considering that Ottawa may come a calling................. Burris has little time left and Maas is the O.C over there. Actually I could also see Ottawa maybe going after Reilly as well, just a hunch of mine at best and mainly due to the reports I've read that the Esks brass are extremely high on Franklin.

Personally whether Ray or Harris stays doesn't matter much to me, if Harris stays you secure the present and future I suppose, if the Argos keep Ray you secure the present for 2 years tops IMO, but you'd better hope that one of Gale, Kilgore or maybe someone else they bring in can be the "next one".

[argotom]

The play of Harris going forward plus the cap will be the combination that will determine RR future.

[argos1873]

The play of Harris going forward plus the cap will be the combination that will determine RR future.

I think you can also add the play of Ray to the mix. Its within the realm of possibility that injury + father time has taken a toll on Ray. I'm not saying it has, as I really don't know, but its possible. A reduced Ray should probably not be back next year, if a healthy and progressing Harris and an up and comer in Gale is in the chamber.

Besides how the Argos perform and finish this year, the QB situation is the next most exciting on-field thing to think about as the year goes on. The good thing is, I feel confident about the situation at this point whether the Argos stick with Ray, or decide to move on with Harris next year.

[AngeloV]

The good thing is, I feel confident about the situation at this point whether the Argos stick with Ray, or decide to move on with Harris next year.

That is a statement I agree with. Even though I am a Ray supporter, I trust Barker and Milanovich know what they are doing.

[argotom]

That is a statement I agree with. Even though I am a Ray supporter, I trust Barker and Milanovich know what they are doing.

You know where I stand when it came to the Zach decision, hence my review of that management decision.
Can you imagine the one two punch of Zach and Trevor if these two were still with the Argos?

[AngeloV]

You know where I stand when it came to the Zach decision, hence my review of that management decision.
Can you imagine the one two punch of Zach and Trevor if these two were still with the Argos?

If, in your mind they will lose Harris if they go forward with Ray (something you have stated), how in the world can you justify saying they would have a 1-2 with ZC and Harris?

[argotom]

If, in your mind they will lose Harris if they go forward with Ray (something you have stated), how in the world can you justify saying they would have a 1-2 with ZC and Harris?


Pretty simple, in my world signing Zach and trading RR 2 years ago would have still left Trevor as the back up.

[Rich]

Pretty simple, in my world signing Zach and trading RR 2 years ago would have still left Trevor as the back up.

These guys are too good for one team. It's like Russ Jackson and Ronnie Lancaster both on Ottawa in the early sixties. Hamilton got the guy who plays like Jackson, and we'll keep the guy who plays like The Little General.

If we somehow lost Harris next year it would be as if the Riders lost Lancaster in 1964. A disaster of historical proportions.

[argotom]

These guys are too good for one team. It's like Russ Jackson and Ronnie Lancaster both on Ottawa in the early sixties. Hamilton got the guy who plays like Jackson, and we'll keep the guy who plays like The Little General.

If we somehow lost Harris next year it would be as if the Riders lost Lancaster in 1964. A disaster of historical proportions.


You may have a point, it's the overall welfare of the league that may come into play to ensure every team has a very good QB.
However, as we all know with the ever increasing injuries especially in this the most important position of the team it requires 2 good QB's.
Heck sometimes having a decent 3rd, like the Riders found out this year is crucial.

[AngeloV]

Pretty simple, in my world signing Zach and trading RR 2 years ago would have still left Trevor as the back up.

How can I argue with such logic?

[argofan81]

Pretty simple, in my world signing Zach and trading RR 2 years ago would have still left Trevor as the back up.

This thread is about the Argo QB situation going forward, not what the situation is today. If Argos had signed Collaros and traded Ray 2 years ago, they would still be in the same situation (in terms of going forward). Going forward, they would still be looking at potentially loosing one of them next year. Why would Harris agree to be back up under Collaros if he won't agree to be backup under Ray?

[AngeloV]

This thread is about the Argo QB situation going forward, not what the situation is today. If Argos had signed Collaros and traded Ray 2 years ago, they would still be in the same situation (in terms of going forward). Going forward, they would still be looking at potentially loosing one of them next year. Why would Harris agree to be back up under Collaros if he won't agree to be backup under Ray?

LOL...That was my point. Why would Harris stay if he's backing up Collaros, but leave if he's backing up Ray? Logic would suggest, he may be more inclined to back up Ray, because Collaros likely still has a long career ahead of him.

[AngeloV]

These guys are too good for one team. It's like Russ Jackson and Ronnie Lancaster both on Ottawa in the early sixties. Hamilton got the guy who plays like Jackson, and we'll keep the guy who plays like The Little General.

If we somehow lost Harris next year it would be as if the Riders lost Lancaster in 1964. A disaster of historical proportions.

Disaster of Historical proportions? How many Grey Cups did Lancaster win? 1 in 13 years.

[ArgoZ]

This thread is about the Argo QB situation going forward, not what the situation is today. If Argos had signed Collaros and traded Ray 2 years ago, they would still be in the same situation (in terms of going forward). Going forward, they would still be looking at potentially loosing one of them next year. Why would Harris agree to be back up under Collaros if he won't agree to be backup under Ray?

We will never know the alternate future. I could see a scenario where Harris never got his shot, staying behind Collaros, and called it a career after next year. This season has played out perfect for him and I am happy to see him make the best out of it after being so patient. He seems to gain more confidence with each game, never panicks, goes downfield, he's everything people have been calling for.

[argonaut11xx]

I wonder what the Argo`s might get if they offered Mitchell Gale to Saskatchewan....

[AngeloV]

I wonder what the Argo`s might get if they offered Mitchell Gale to Saskatchewan....

I would say not much. When was the last time an unproven QB was traded for anything of value in this league?

[argonaut11xx]

I would say not much. When was the last time an unproven QB was traded for anything of value in this league?

Excellent point, but the Riders are desperate. Glenn is not a part of their future, Durant is starting to look like Buck Pierce, Tino Sunseri sucks, given that, The Argo`s system has made 2 excellent young QB`s, and Gale is the next in line.

So Angelo, your saying we couldnt make a Messam for Gale deal....

[ArgoRavi]

Excellent point, but the Riders are desperate. Glenn is not a part of their future, Durant is starting to look like Buck Pierce, Tino Sunseri sucks, given that, The Argo`s system has made 2 excellent young QB`s, and Gale is the next in line.

So Angelo, your saying we couldnt make a Messam for Gale deal....

I am not Angelo but I would say absolutely not. Messam doesn't seem to fit what this offence does and I seriously doubt that the Riders would trade him for Gale anyway. The Riders have three young QBs currently that they like in Brett Smith, Keith Price and Blake Sims - oddly, two of them are former Argos - and they will want to see what they have in these guys first before looking elsewhere. They also seem to be working some other youngsters into the lineup tonight so I really don't think that they are looking for a saviour this year and we have no idea whether Gale would be that for them anyway.

[AngeloV]

Excellent point, but the Riders are desperate. Glenn is not a part of their future, Durant is starting to look like Buck Pierce, Tino Sunseri sucks, given that, The Argo`s system has made 2 excellent young QB`s, and Gale is the next in line.

So Angelo, your saying we couldnt make a Messam for Gale deal....

As Ravi said, Messam is not a player that fits into what the Argos do. He is a beast of a runner, but all we would use him for is short yardage plays. He is a brutal pass blocker and in a pass first offence, there is no room for that.

[Mookie Fan]

I wonder what the Argo`s might get if they offered Mitchell Gale to Saskatchewan....

I think there is little the Argos might want on the Saskatchewan roster, other than recent (or future) high draft picks like the talented Nick Demski and players like Messam and/or Anthony Allen when healthy. The Riders are the worst team in the CFL, and many of their best defensive players are currently underperforming.



I am not Angelo but I would say absolutely not. Messam doesn't seem to fit what this offence does and I seriously doubt that the Riders would trade him for Gale anyway. The Riders have three young QBs currently that they like in Brett Smith, Keith Price and Blake Sims - oddly, two of them are former Argos - and they will want to see what they have in these guys first before looking elsewhere. They also seem to be working some other youngsters into the lineup tonight so I really don't think that they are looking for a saviour this year and we have no idea whether Gale would be that for them anyway.

I think the Riders would consider trading Messam for Gale in a few weeks if they keep struggling. Messam is 30 with a pretty serious injury history, and if the Riders are playing for the future in a few weeks, a young QB would be more likely to help them in the future than a veteran RB. Allen and Messam have also been inconsistent at times during their career.

That said, why would the Argos trade a young QB in Gale for Messam? The Argos had a chance to sign Messam as a free-agent for a good bargain probably and without having to give up draft picks or players and still weren't interested, according to some. They could have had him for nothing except money. The Argos also didn't pursue Anthony Woodson enough in free agency--another CFL RB bigger than the current Argo RBs.

Good young QBs are harder to find than RBs. I know Messam is a national and has a skill set (big, fast, agile) that is harder to find for a CFL RB, but he isn't a young player anymore. Also, there are a lot of international RBs out there, though I realize many of the bigger ones often end up in the NFL, at least initially. I realize QBs can get hurt too, but QBs have a better chance of having a long career if they perform than RBs and arguably players at many other positions, other than maybe the offensive line and kickers.

I see Mitchell Gale a litte bit differently, I guess. I really like his game. He is tall and big. he's 6'2 240, a bit heavier than Harris and only 1 inch shorter. He has a decent arm, and is more mobile than Trevor Harris. He ran the short yardage very well last year and has done everything the Argos have asked of him. He is only in his third year, and has had very little playing time. That said, he has shown great flashes of huge potential. In training camp some people were saying he'd be released and was playing poorly and was a lost cause, and he bounced back with a great performance in the pre-season. This is not the kind of guy you give up on. He is likely better than the young QBs on the Riders' roster. The Riders don’t know enough about their 3 young QBs yet to know if they like them, other than liking their distant potential. Mitchell Gale is much farther along in his QB development process than those 3 QBs are and maybe ever will be.

Mitchell Gale could turn out to be better than Trevor Harris, if he ever gets a chance to play. He might not, but many were saying last year that Gale should be ahead of Harris on the depth chart. Gale just looks like a gamer. He's a playmaker. He seems to have a high football IQ and is a quick study. If Ricky Ray cannot play this year, the Argos are only one injury to Harris away from needing Mitchell Gale. Even if Ray returns, it isn't unheard of for 2 QBs to get injured. It happened to Saskatchewan this season. I think most would agree that Logan Kilgore probably isn't ready to start and Adrian Mcpherson is more of a short-yardage QB.

Why help another team for little in return in a trade? The Riders could offer Messam, Anthony Allen and a first round draft pick and I still wouldn't trade Gale for that. Gale could be the young QB the Riders need, but it's not our job to help the Riders. There always is a chance of a secret desire or attempt to create a more balanced league by gifting the Riders a young QB, but I doubt the Argos would agree to that, though that has likely happened before. More likely to help Toronto than another team, though. Some discussed this issue regarding Toronto's signing of Doug Flutie and the trade for Ricky Ray.

I do think the Argos could and should find a role for a RB like Messam, but I would only be willing to give up a draft pick or two (and maybe an international defensive player, not a QB) for Messam, and think he could be acquired for that later in the season--if the Riders season turns out to be a lost season. Regarding draft picks, I would be willing to give up a couple decent picks, but preferably not a first round pick, or at most one first round pick and a second round pick or lower. It is true that draft picks are often busts or overrated, and Messam is more of a proven player. That being said, he is a veteran at a position where careers are usually pretty short. On the flipside again, after seeing how few of Toronto's picks this year made the Argos, maybe it is worth it to give up a bit of future potential in the draft for a chance to win this year, as "the future is now" in football from a team perspective.

[Rich]

Disaster of Historical proportions? How many Grey Cups did Lancaster win? 1 in 13 years.

So now you're arguing that Ronnie Lancaster wasn't a great CFL QB? That speaks volumes about you.

[Will]

So now you're arguing that Ronnie Lancaster wasn't a great CFL QB? That speaks volumes about you.

At the very least we certainly would prefer if Harris were to have more success in Grey Cup games than Lancaster.

[Rich]

At the very least we certainly would prefer if Harris were to have more success in Grey Cup games than Lancaster.

Uh, perennial contender and high quality play for almost 10 years, identifiable and likeable face of the franchise for that length of time -- these are things that could lift the Argo profile for the long haul in their new home. How much did winning a Grey Cup in 2012 lift the Argo profile in this town?

[paulwoods13]

Yeah, yeah, Rich. But as good as Harris has been, it might be just a tad premature to compare him to Lancaster, don't ya think?

[AngeloV]

So now you're arguing that Ronnie Lancaster wasn't a great CFL QB? That speaks volumes about you.


No I'm not. I'm arguing that it had little impact on Ottawa. They were a very good team right through until the time that Lancaster retired, in fact having more success than Saskatchewan over that time. So I'm saying that calling it a disaster of Historical proportions is just a stupid, uninformed comment. And THAT speaks volumes about YOU.

[Rich]

Yeah, yeah, Rich. But as good as Harris has been, it might be just a tad premature to compare him to Lancaster, don't ya think?

Well I think their playing styles are similar, but didn't you know Lancaster was a stiff because he only won one Grey Cup?

[Wobbler]

Rich, Angelo: Could you maybe just avoid sniping at each other for a while? The whole "I'm going to deliberately misinterpret what you said so I can insult you" stuff isn't winning anyone any points.

[Rich]

No I'm not. I'm arguing that it had little impact on Ottawa. They were a very good team right through until the time that Lancaster retired, in fact having more success than Saskatchewan over that time. So I'm saying that calling it a disaster of Historical proportions is just a stupid, uninformed comment. And THAT speaks volumes about YOU.

I see the problem. I said:


If we somehow lost Harris next year it would be as if the Riders lost Lancaster in 1964

I should have said Green 'Riders or Saskatchewan. I'm glad two teams don't have the same name anymore.

Still doesn't get you off the hook for denigrating Lancaster.

[AngeloV]

I see the problem. I said:



I should have said Green 'Riders or Saskatchewan. I'm glad two teams don't have the same name anymore.

Still doesn't get you off the hook for denigrating Lancaster.

I really don't know what you're talking about. When did I denigrate Lancaster? I just said that his departure had no negative affect on Ottawa. I never said he had a horrible career. It would be stupid if I would say such a thing.


Rich, Angelo: Could you maybe just avoid sniping at each other for a while? The whole "I'm going to deliberately misinterpret what you said so I can insult you" stuff isn't winning anyone any points.

For the record, I did not deliberately misinterpret anything. Ron Lancaster was with Ottawa until 1963, which was the obvious reason I took it the way I did.

[T-Bone]

I should have said Green 'Riders or Saskatchewan. I'm glad two teams don't have the same name anymore.
I've been told that some fans are now calling the Roughriders the GreenWhites for clarity and because they wouldn't let the RedBlacks have the Rough Riders name back even though the Rough Riders had the name before the Roughriders.

[argonaut11xx]

I've been told that some fans are now calling the Roughriders the GreenWhites for clarity and because they wouldn't let the RedBlacks have the Rough Riders name back even though the Rough Riders had the name before the Roughriders.

after that statement, were gunna have to change ur name from T-bone to Funnybone

[R.J]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">QB Ricky Ray has now spent 60 regular season games with <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a>. 20 wins starting, 20 losses starting, 20 games on injured. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a></p>&mdash; Gerry Moddejonge (@SunModdejonge) <a href="https://twitter.com/SunModdejonge/status/631679244851105792">August 13, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[paulwoods13]

And 60 games where people make it sound as if QBs win and lose games on their own. Personally, I'd like to know the won/lost record when Durie is in and out of the lineup. Makes about as much sense. Some of the games we lost with Ricky Ray starting were lost primarily because of bad defence, fumbles, poor punt coverage, etc. And a few of the wins were won primarily because of good defence, sensational catches, Kackert's aggressive running, etc. QBs may be the most important out of 44 players, but they are not necessarily the sole or even primary determinant of who wins.

[R.J]

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/04/28/kilgore-needs-reps-to-secure-argos-qb-job


The Argos believe in Kilgore and feel he’ll one day be a starting quarterback. And he will have every chance to earn a job as Ricky Ray’s understudy this coming season.

Head coach Scott Milanovich is a big fan of Kilgore.

“Mentally, he’s sharp,’’ said the one-time quarterback. “Physically, he makes all the throws. He’s a very fluid thrower, very natural. He just needs reps, getting his timing figured out with how we’re moving from receiver to receiver.”

In Kilgore and Fajardo, the Argos believe they have a Harris/Zach Collaros presence with Kilgore more a drop-back guy like Harris, Fajardo capable of getting out of the pocket like Collaros and making plays on his feet.

[Reggiemac]

So, now its 2016, still questions about RR throwing and we srikl have two young guns in Kilgore and Fajardo. I think we need to get the young guns lots of reps in exhibition and TC. Either one looks to have an exciting upside and dont forget the old axiom offence sells tickets and defence wins championships. If RR falters I like our chances with our young guys. Just might hit a homerun with a breakout peformance. I teally like our recruit onboth sides of the ball. Our D is going to be better and our O should not be shooting itself in the foot the way wedid too frequently in the past. Good coaching changes and some promissing talent to blend in with a lot of established players. Good recipe for success. Great year coming up.

[doubleblue]

So, now its 2016, still questions about RR throwing and we srikl have two young guns in Kilgore and Fajardo. I think we need to get the young guns lots of reps in exhibition and TC. Either one looks to have an exciting upside and dont forget the old axiom offence sells tickets and defence wins championships. If RR falters I like our chances with our young guys. Just might hit a homerun with a breakout peformance. I teally like our recruit onboth sides of the ball. Our D is going to be better and our O should not be shooting itself in the foot the way wedid too frequently in the past. Good coaching changes and some promissing talent to blend in with a lot of established players. Good recipe for success. Great year coming up.

Barring a few key injuries IMO the defense will be better than last year. Just going by the new signings and the Stubler factor.

Ricky is throwing pain free for the first time in a few years (according to newspaper reports) which is a very good sign. Just hope they go with the best O-Linemen available instead of trying for an all Canadian front. There are enough good Canadians at other positions IMO that they could go with three Imports on the O-Line (probably cheaper too).
Getting back to the QB's and their playing experience in the exhibition games. The norm is generally, the starter plays 1 quarter in the first game. Backups a quarter each. Second game Ricky plays maybe most of the first half and the #1 backup most of the remaining time.
Hopefully that is Kilgore to get him as much game experience as possible.

[AngeloV]

Barring a few key injuries IMO the defense will be better than last year. Just going by the new signings and the Stubler factor.

Ricky is throwing pain free for the first time in a few years (according to newspaper reports) which is a very good sign. Just hope they go with the best O-Linemen available instead of trying for an all Canadian front. There are enough good Canadians at other positions IMO that they could go with three Imports on the O-Line (probably cheaper too).
Getting back to the QB's and their playing experience in the exhibition games. The norm is generally, the starter plays 1 quarter in the first game. Backups a quarter each. Second game Ricky plays maybe most of the first half and the #1 backup most of the remaining time.
Hopefully that is Kilgore to get him as much game experience as possible.

I have no problem using imports on the line, but I wouldn't want to go with more than 1 that has no Canadian experience. There is an adjustment period for o-lineman with the D-line being a yard off the ball. I, personally like their Canadian O-lineman, and with Bourke now aboard, I think they should be starting 4. I didn't like Van Roten at guard last year, but thought our O-line was at it's best when he was starting at center early in the year.

[OV Argo]

Barring a few key injuries IMO the defense will be better than last year. Just going by the new signings and the Stubler factor.

Ricky is throwing pain free for the first time in a few years (according to newspaper reports) which is a very good sign. Just hope they go with the best O-Linemen available instead of trying for an all Canadian front. There are enough good Canadians at other positions IMO that they could go with three Imports on the O-Line (probably cheaper too).
Getting back to the QB's and their playing experience in the exhibition games. The norm is generally, the starter plays 1 quarter in the first game. Backups a quarter each. Second game Ricky plays maybe most of the first half and the #1 backup most of the remaining time.
Hopefully that is Kilgore to get him as much game experience as possible.


Again - who are all these superstar import O-linemen who the Argos could play? Only 2 on the roster that I saw recently - Van Roten = versatile i guess, but hardly a proven starter IMO; and Fonoti = looked lost when he got handed a starting spot last year.

IF McEwen shows up or Watman grades out well, 4 if not 5 starting NI O-linemen could be easily do-able.

O-line I'd like to see maybe = McEwen at C, Holmes & Smith at OG and Van Zeyl & Bourke at OT; with Watman & Sewell as the back-ups; drafting one of the top notch O-linemen in this draft could add to that mix. We shall see soon if McEwen draws any NFL interest.

[Golden Fleece]

Wasn't Van Roten the team's nominee for O-line player of the year? He looked good in all three games I saw him play (I talked to him a bit at the Fan Day so I tried to focus on him on different snaps--my evaluation is not based on game tape breakdowns or any specialized coaching knowledge.). Besides his noted versatility, when there was pressure on the QB he usually had his man under control with the breakdown coming elsewhere. I know all Canadian lines can really help with the import ratios, but I'm still pulling for him to make the team this year if we can balance the ratio with a good Canadian at another position.

[Jon Gonzo]

Van Roten was the Argos best Lineman last year, and the brass appreciated his versatility and ability to play hurt. I see no reason why he isn't penciled in as either the starting Center or Right Guard going into camp

[OV Argo]

Van Roten was the Argos best Lineman last year, and the brass appreciated his versatility and ability to play hurt. I see no reason why he isn't penciled in as either the starting Center or Right Guard going into camp


Bourke - proven, veteran, best in the league calibre OT, should IMO be the only pencilled-in guy for this O-line. Let real, open TC competition determine the other spots. Van Roten might find a spot with his versatility; McEwen might show-up; Sewell might step-up at OT now; Watman might surprise, etc.

[Will]

I think Tyler Holmes' spot is pretty secure too.

[Argo57]

I think Tyler Holmes' spot is pretty secure too.

Agreed, Bourke and Holmes seem set, wide open for the other 3 spots especially after last seasons performance.
I think the O-Line performance in 2016 will dictate the success of the season.

[Jon Gonzo]

Agreed. Camp says it all, but in my head I see this;

Bourke - Holmes - Van Roten - Watman (or Smith) - Van Zeyl

(Sewell/Canadian/American)

If McEwen shows up;

Bourke - Holmes - McEwen - Van Roten - Van Zeyl

The right side rocks (Van Halen), if VZ has a bounce back year, as I predict he does.

The Draft can change this again should big St. John land in our laps.

[AngeloV]

I'm still not a fan of Van Roten anywhere but at center. Is he versatile, yes. But as far as a starter, center IMO is the only position I'd want him to start.

[paulwoods13]

IMO:

VR will start at centre.
McEwen is not showing up any time soon.
There's an excellent chance VZ moves to RG and we start an INT (who TBD in camp) at RT.
I don't see Watman starting unless we have no capable INT to play the right side. He's a depth guy/prospect at this point, not a starter.

[Argocister]

IMO:

VR will start at centre.
McEwen is not showing up any time soon.
........

Totally agree with this. Was there any other OL that played centre last year?
As to the rest of the OLine ..... I'm not making any guesses as it will all be determined by training camp injuries ..... Hoping there aren't any.
I also would like one of the Laval Oline drafted to the team ..... In the last few years , they are the rookies that were able to step in fairly soon in the season.

[doubleblue]

Bourke - proven, veteran, best in the league calibre OT, should IMO be the only pencilled-in guy for this O-line. Let real, open TC competition determine the other spots. Van Roten might find a spot with his versatility; McEwen might show-up; Sewell might step-up at OT now; Watman might surprise, etc.

A lot of Might's there OV. Ricky Ray might get killed to with some of those guys playing.

I saw a little clip of the mini camp and I think the guy was wearing #65. Looked like he knew how to pass block and was good on his feet. There are a lot of O Linemen down south floating around like him that Barker will flush out if needed IMO. I can't see Milanovich starting less than two Imports up front and maybe three. I don't think I would have to be a rocket scientist to project a starting Line of Bourke, Holmes, Van Roten and an unnamed Import at either RG or RT plus Van Zeyl. Then again I might be wrong. :)

[OV Argo]

I'm not very big on a "TBD import" OT being pencilled-in over Van Zeyl (or Sewell for that matter) at OT; BUT - it would not surprise me in the least and be very gob like. IF that is the thinking, hopefully 3 or 4 are in TC to compete, and maybe they come up with a guy who is good like Jerriel King, or Sir Vincent Rodgers or even Campbell from last year; IF this was the plan all along - to go with an import OT with Bourke holding down the other spot - then why get rid of King & Campbell ??? And Ricky Ray might get "killed" with some raw rookie import or a Finoti type playing OT, but if doubleblue is good with assuming any American they come up with will automatically be better than Van Zeyl, or Sewell or a draft pick even maybe = whatever.

[paulwoods13]

I'm not very big on a "TBD import" OT being pencilled-in over Van Zeyl (or Sewell for that matter) at OT; BUT - it would not surprise me in the least and be very gob like. IF that is the thinking, hopefully 3 or 4 are in TC to compete, and maybe they come up with a guy who is good like Jerriel King, or Sir Vincent Rodgers or even Campbell from last year; IF this was the plan all along - to go with an import OT with Bourke holding down the other spot - then why get rid of King & Campbell ??? And Ricky Ray might get "killed" with some raw rookie import or a Finoti type playing OT, but if doubleblue is good with assuming any American they come up with will automatically be better than Van Zeyl, or Sewell or a draft pick even maybe = whatever.

King had a good rookie year but did little of note the past two seasons. Campbell was solid last year but Bourke is clearly better, and maybe Campbell was not seen as a guy who could switch to the right side. The idea that "any American" would be assumed to be better than any NAT is predictable but wrong.

[Rich]

So, now its 2016, still questions about RR throwing and we srikl have two young guns in Kilgore and Fajardo. I think we need to get the young guns lots of reps in exhibition and TC. Either one looks to have an exciting upside and dont forget the old axiom offence sells tickets and defence wins championships. If RR falters I like our chances with our young guys. Just might hit a homerun with a breakout peformance.

I am also excited about Kilgore and Fajardo. I am convinced that Milanovich has established one of the best systems ever for developing young QBs. The proof is in the pudding. The last two developmental QBs we had will start for our Eastern rivals for years to come.

I think the jury is out as to whether losing Trevor Harris will be a disaster of "historical proportions" for the Argonauts, but now I believe that under Milanovich's QB development system, the "next man up" could always be as good if not better than the last guy. I think Kilgore has more natural ability than Harris, and this is his third season with the club. Coach M. said Kilgore knows the playbook better than anybody and can make all the throws. I can't wait to watch him play in the preseason. If the pattern holds, Fajardo will need another year of seasoning before he's ready to start, and then another Eastern team will grab one of them in 2018. :-)

[doubleblue]

I am also excited about Kilgore and Fajardo. I am convinced that Milanovich has established one of the best systems ever for developing young QBs. The proof is in the pudding. The last two developmental QBs we had will start for our Eastern rivals for years to come.

I think the jury is out as to whether losing Trevor Harris will be a disaster of "historical proportions" for the Argonauts, but now I believe that under Milanovich's QB development system, the "next man up" could always be as good if not better than the last guy. I think Kilgore has more natural ability than Harris, and this is his third season with the club. Coach M. said Kilgore knows the playbook better than anybody and can make all the throws. I can't wait to watch him play in the preseason. If the pattern holds, Fajardo will need another year of seasoning before he's ready to start, and then another Eastern team will grab one of them in 2018. :-)

I hope you're right. We know Ricky is going to take some hits sooner or later, even if an opposing D Lineman has to take a roughing the passer call to do it. Small penalty to knock the #1 QB out of a game. Harris was a pleasant surprise last year, so hope Kilgore or next man up can do the same if required. But we never know for sure in Pro Football until the QB does it in game conditions.

[AngeloV]

I really don't think Ray is any more at risk than any other QB at taking hits and getting hurt. He has taken a lot over his career, and the injuries he has had the last couple of years have more to do with timing than him being fragile (or as AT would say, old).

The more I think of it, the more I believe Harris will never see that 400k salary in Ottawa. Either Burris plays great and is extended, or Ottawa will see that Harris is a good, but not great QB. Whether Kilgore or Fajardo show better than Harris is anyone's guess, but let's not forget Harris will be 30 when TC starts, which is not exactly the age that you groom your future starter at.

[paulwoods13]

I'm not very big on a "TBD import" OT being pencilled-in over Van Zeyl (or Sewell for that matter) at OT; BUT - it would not surprise me in the least and be very gob like. IF that is the thinking, hopefully 3 or 4 are in TC to compete, and maybe they come up with a guy who is good like Jerriel King, or Sir Vincent Rodgers or even Campbell from last year; IF this was the plan all along - to go with an import OT with Bourke holding down the other spot - then why get rid of King & Campbell ??? And Ricky Ray might get "killed" with some raw rookie import or a Finoti type playing OT, but if doubleblue is good with assuming any American they come up with will automatically be better than Van Zeyl, or Sewell or a draft pick even maybe = whatever.

Not to belabour this point, but Campbell's retirement got me thinking about this again. At this time three years ago, I suspect none of us had even heard of Jarriel King. At this point last year, I suspect none of us had even heard of Bruce Campbell. Relying on an "INT TBD" at some positions is standard operating practice if there is not a NAT capable of starting there. If Sewell, for instance, is truly ready to start I believe he will be given every opportunity to start -- it would in fact be insane not to start him if he is ready. If he's not, we will see who wins the spot among the INT tackles we bring in, none of whom we've heard of just as we hadn't heard of King or Campbell before they came in and won jobs.

[OV Argo]

Not to belabour this point, but Campbell's retirement got me thinking about this again. At this time three years ago, I suspect none of us had even heard of Jarriel King. At this point last year, I suspect none of us had even heard of Bruce Campbell. Relying on an "INT TBD" at some positions is standard operating practice if there is not a NAT capable of starting there. If Sewell, for instance, is truly ready to start I believe he will be given every opportunity to start -- it would in fact be insane not to start him if he is ready. If he's not, we will see who wins the spot among the INT tackles we bring in, none of whom we've heard of just as we hadn't heard of King or Campbell before they came in and won jobs.

There have been some really mediocre to piss-poor import OTs starting in the CFL over the past few years, to go with some good ones, IMO. I'm all for bringing some in for TC competition at a position of need and a starting OT might be such a position- let's say Van Zeyl is considered not capable of playing OT anymore, or Sewell grades out "not good enough"; there may be a better import OT the Argos could find/sign - I just don't assume there is.

[jerrym]

IMO:

VR will start at centre.
McEwen is not showing up any time soon.
There's an excellent chance VZ moves to RG and we start an INT (who TBD in camp) at RT.
I don't see Watman starting unless we have no capable INT to play the right side. He's a depth guy/prospect at this point, not a starter.

IMO this is the most likely scenario.

[Rich]

but let's not forget Harris will be 30 when TC starts, which is not exactly the age that you groom your future starter at.

Ottawa wouldn't have offered him 400 large if they believed he still needed grooming. I'm sure they fully expect him to be able to start effectively as soon as his number's called.

[argolio]

Ottawa wouldn't have offered him 400 large if they believed he still needed grooming. I'm sure they fully expect him to be able to start effectively as soon as his number's called.Or, if they see better opportunities elsewhere, they'll cut him before the 400K takes effect.

[AngeloV]

Or, if they see better opportunities elsewhere, they'll cut him before the 400K takes effect.

Which was the point I was making. Is he the QB he was early in 2015? Or the one we saw look totally lost at the end of 2015. I suspect Ottawa signed him as in insurance knowing that they can kill the contract before the big amount ever kicks in.

[Wobbler]

Cody Fajardo is back (http://www.rgj.com/story/sports/college/nevada/2016/05/16/ex-pack-qb-cody-fajardo-signs-cfls-argonauts/84455004/), to no one's surprise.

[Rich]

This Mitchell Gale signing is a real head-scratcher. Why would they bring him in at this point? The only logical conclusion is that they brought him in to replace McPherson.

I agree with the general assessments of the other QBs on Saturday. Kilgore looked great. He threw some beautiful balls, threaded the needle a couple of times, made great decisions and looked in command. I think he's right where Harris was last year, but he's got better tools than Harris. it wouldn't frighten me to name Kilgore the #2 QB. If Ricky went down god forbid I would rather put Kilgore in than McPherson.

Cody Fajardo's a project worth nurturing because he's an exceptional athlete. A very natural runner, he looked faster than our RBs on Saturday. And his long pass that maybe should have been caught was 50 yards on a rope. That's raw talent worth hanging onto, hope he accepts a PR position.

Ray, Kilgore and Fajardo are locks. So who would you rather have, Mitchell Gale or Adrian McPherson? We can be sure McPherson makes way more money, IIRC I've heard he gets six figures. Gale has plenty of CFL experience running the short yardage plays that McPherson was supposed to handle. Plus Gale has a bigger upside, and if Kilgore faltered as the #2 I'm guessing Barker and Milo would like to see what Gale could do. I think it all spells goodbye Adrian.

[paulwoods13]

IMO they brought Gale back because migraines are unpredictable and they do not want to chance having to dress Fajardo as No. 3 in any game this season. IMO they will find a way to keep all five guys, and McPherson will dress as No. 3 and short-yardage guy if he is healthy.

[AngeloV]

IMO they brought Gale back because migraines are unpredictable and they do not want to chance having to dress Fajardo as No. 3 in any game this season. IMO they will find a way to keep all five guys, and McPherson will dress as No. 3 and short-yardage guy if he is healthy.

I don't know. McPherson wouldn't be the first player in CFL history to lose his job over injury or illness. I think if Gale plays on Friday, and plays well, he will be the #3 QB. Also a cheaper option, which might help cap wise come NFL cuts later this summer.

[Scooter McCray]

Is anyone else worried about the lack of spiral on Ricky's 3 passes on Saturday? I hope he plays a full quarter Friday to get the rust off. He has been having a good camp from what we hear from the coach.

[AngeloV]

Is anyone else worried about the lack of spiral on Ricky's 3 passes on Saturday? I hope he plays a full quarter Friday to get the rust off. He has been having a good camp from what we hear from the coach.

To be honest, spirals don't mean jack. They look pretty but that is all. Matt Dunnigan threw a lot of wobbly balls, but they got there.

[Scooter McCray]

To be honest, spirals don't mean jack. They look pretty but that is all. Matt Dunnigan threw a lot of wobbly balls, but they got there.Doesn't a spiral move faster through the air and is easier to catch? Dunigan had a cannon arm.

[AngeloV]

Doesn't a spiral move faster through the air and is easier to catch? Dunigan had a cannon arm.

Not enough to make a difference. I've seen spirals that hang and slight wobbles that get to their target fast. A pro receiver should be able to catch either without even thinking about it. It's not like the passes are going end over end.

[Rich]

Not enough to make a difference. I've seen spirals that hang and slight wobbles that get to their target fast. A pro receiver should be able to catch either without even thinking about it. It's not like the passes are going end over end.

A tight spiral increases accuracy.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/2015/10/05/football-physics-why-throw-a-spiral/#49e336662000 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/2015/10/05/football-physics-why-throw-a-spiral/#49e336662000)

[R.J]

I thought the Argonauts were stupid for letting Harris and Sims go ?
Everything's okay now ?

[AngeloV]

A tight spiral increases accuracy.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/2015/10/05/football-physics-why-throw-a-spiral/#49e336662000 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/2015/10/05/football-physics-why-throw-a-spiral/#49e336662000)

Yeah, too bad Peyton Manning rarely threw one. He just may have had a career if he did.

[R.J]

Yeah, too bad Peyton Manning rarely threw one. He just may have had a career if he did.
Alex Brink and Justin Goltz could throw some nice spirals..............................

[AngeloV]

Alex Brink and Justin Goltz could throw some nice spirals..............................

Reggie Slack had one of the best I ever saw.

[Rich]

Yeah, too bad Peyton Manning rarely threw one. He just may have had a career if he did.

Yeah, he might have been Tom Brady-good if he threw better spirals. Throwing a tight spiral in and of itself doesn't make a good QB, it makes a good QB better.

[AngeloV]

Yeah, he might have been Tom Brady-good if he threw better spirals. Throwing a tight spiral in and of itself doesn't make a good QB, it makes a good QB better.

Good Lord. How can Peyton Manning have had a better career? It makes no difference. This whole thing about a QB threading the needle is overblown. It's about when the QB releases the ball.

[R.J]

Good Lord. How can Peyton Manning have had a better career? It makes no difference. This whole thing about a QB threading the needle is overblown. It's about when the QB releases the ball.
I agree, but can't deny that when Kilgore threaded the needle twice I was impressed.

[AngeloV]

I agree, but can't deny that when Kilgore threaded the needle twice I was impressed.

I was too, but that is strictly throwing on time and in the right spot. Has nothing to do with a spiral.

[Argo57]

Kilgore looked confident and in command, a good start and confidence builder for sure albeit against a pretty vanilla defence.

[KCargosfan]

Yeah, too bad Peyton Manning rarely threw one. He just may have had a career if he did.


Alex Brink and Justin Goltz could throw some nice spirals..............................

haha, thumbs up to both of these posts.

[KCargosfan]

Yeah, too bad Peyton Manning rarely threw one. He just may have had a career if he did.


Yeah, he might have been Tom Brady-good if he threw better spirals. Throwing a tight spiral in and of itself doesn't make a good QB, it makes a good QB better.

Really, Rich? Really?

[R.J]

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&quot;Having a guy like that to lean on is the best teaching you can get!&quot;<br><br>Ricky Ray a mentor to the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> young QBs<a href="https://t.co/dMrFnFbVi7">https://t.co/dMrFnFbVi7</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts (@TorontoArgos) <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/742523266821033985">June 14, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Reggiemac]

I also believe that Mitchell Gale has won a spot on this team.he is familiar with the system and has some upside and Adrian Mcpherson will be the odd man out. Every move Barker makes makes us better.

[R.J]

and if Baker Mayfield ever ends up here - look out.

[R.J]

Kilgore's officially the #2.

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&quot;Logan's earned the position. He's had a really good camp!&quot;<br><br>Logan Kilgore officially named <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> backup QB<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFLTC?src=hash">#CFLTC</a><a href="https://t.co/OdUx89asJr">https://t.co/OdUx89asJr</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts (@TorontoArgos) <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/742836478263197697">June 14, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


http://www.torontosun.com/2016/06/14/kilgore-named-argos-backup-qb

[Rich]

and if Baker Mayfield ever ends up here - look out.

Based on his 2015 performance, Mayfield is definitely on the NFL track. We have to hope he has a crappy 2016 to have any chance of getting him up here.

[Rich]

Based on last night's performance I've changed my mind on this. I think Fajardo looked much better than Gale and deserves to be third on the depth chart. If nothing else he provides a change of pace and can get yards scrambling. Fajardo will benefit more in the long term being in uniform every game now and being closer to the action. Gale should be an insurance policy, nothing more.

[Stevoman]

Based on last night's performance I've changed my mind on this. I think Fajardo looked much better than Gale and deserves to be third on the depth chart. If nothing else he provides a change of pace and can get yards scrambling. Fajardo will benefit more in the long term being in uniform every game now and being closer to the action. Gale should be an insurance policy, nothing more.

I completely agree.

[ArgoRavi]

Based on last night's performance I've changed my mind on this. I think Fajardo looked much better than Gale and deserves to be third on the depth chart. If nothing else he provides a change of pace and can get yards scrambling. Fajardo will benefit more in the long term being in uniform every game now and being closer to the action. Gale should be an insurance policy, nothing more.

I wouldn't base anything much on last night's game as far as the QB play goes. All of the QBs were playing behind offensive linemen that likely won't be lining up for the Argos during the season. I really don't think being third or fourth string makes that much difference on how much learning goes on either.

[Argo57]

I wouldn't base anything much on last night's game as far as the QB play goes. All of the QBs were playing behind offensive linemen that likely won't be lining up for the Argos during the season. I really don't think being third or fourth string makes that much difference on how much learning goes on either.

Agreed Ravi, Gale spent part of the night scraping bad snaps off of his shoes.

[paulwoods13]

Kilgore is the man if RR gets hurt, Fajardo is being developed but is still 1-2 years away from being ready to excel, and Gale is semi-experienced injury insurance. I would not be entirely surprised to see McPherson come back; his cutting could have been similar to Kackert's -- a way to get to the roster limit leaving room to continue evaluating newer recruits.

[Rich]

Agreed Ravi, Gale spent part of the night scraping bad snaps off of his shoes.

Fajardo had to play behind the same hopeless O-line, yet he was able to make some good things happen thanks to his mobility, and Gale was not.

[Argo57]

Fajardo had to play behind the same hopeless O-line, yet he was able to make some good things happen thanks to his mobility, and Gale was not.

I like Fajardo as well Rich, Gale had several bad snaps to deal with which I take into consideration as well.
Biggest difference is Gale has a better grasp of this offence, will be interesting to see how Fajardo progresses when he becomes more familiar as well.

[Rich]

I think Fajardo looked much better than Gale and deserves to be third on the depth chart.

I'm very happy the team sees it the same way I do. Being #3 on the depth chart will accelerate Fajardo's development, at least psychologically if not technically, and that is obviously in the best interests of the team.